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'Movement' If You Want It / One, Must Be Based On Something Solid.

"Black Lives Matter" is not based on anything. It's just a vague feeling.

Class is the major motivating and environmental factor political leftism going back 150 years and more. Worldwide.

Sure during the 1950s and 1960s in the U.S., when Jim Crow laws were widespread across America the civil rights activists had major justification and motivation, with consequent gathered support nationwide for what they wanted to accomplish.

But forward motion of the struggle against establishment corporatist capitalist plutocracy,

can not and will not be based on "Black Lives Matter" (or a bunch of anti-Trump demos in states/cities where that ticket lost in a big way).

This isn't about other persons' opinions of the BLM / related movements; or how your 'feelings' / 'privilege' may have been hurt.

It is though entirely about whether or not you will continue down the road handed to you in spades on 8 November 2016.

Have you got the guts and willpower to face that challenge?
See Also

A Critical Analysis Of Some Left-Liberal Reaction To The Recent Election

It's Class, Stupid, Not Race

Fantasies Of Impeachment and Protest: Continued Misreadings of Donald Trump

On Rhetoric And Strategy In Social Justice And Leftist Spaces

Major Irony About U.S. Anti-Trump Protest Locations

The Progressive Movement Is A PR Front For Rich Democrats

Why The Trump Protests, Like The Wisconsin Uprising, Will Fail

Trump/Clinton Ticket Dividing Us Along Lines of Race?

Protesters didn't stop Trump in Chicago. They helped him.

Democrat Party: Alliance of Wealthy Whites + Low Income Ethnic Minorities

1960s Icon Of Civil Rights Leads House Democrats In 'Sit Down' To Have Them Taken Away

House Democrats Sing Civil Rights Anthem In Support Of Taking Away Our Civil Rights

Malcolm X 1964: Black Voters "Chumps" For Voting Democrat

Dangerous Idiots: How The Liberal Media Elite Failed Working-Class Americans

Are Anti-Trump Protesters, Anti-Globalization? 19.Nov.2016 13:04


CELEBRATORY PARADE For End Of NAFTA and TPP! 19.Nov.2016 13:05


_ shut up 19.Nov.2016 13:16


fucking racist

COMPOST THIS GARBAGE 19.Nov.2016 13:28


_ is full of GARBAGE

This site is not to demoralize people that are struggling and trying to rise up.

This is a garbage and undermines the justice movement - its not Indymedia material


More likely standard "old left" dogma than racism 19.Nov.2016 13:50

Mike Novack

Maybe some of you haven't seen this before, haven't seen the "the only way to make progress on all of these other problems is to fight and win the class war, whereupon all these other ills will vanish (they believe in magic?).

That is a much more likely explanation than that the person posting is actually racist. After all, if he were saying the same thing about environmental issues (and they do) you would not be jumping to the conclusion "wants to destroy the environment.

CLASS War is Important - and is worth saying it twice 19.Nov.2016 15:04

Obvious Now

But why is the _ person throwing the BLM Movement under the bus?

Why marginalize the Movement? That tactic is ignorant and wrong. Dividing and putting up post to demonize and criticizing those that are trying to work for Race Justice. Then hiding behind "Classism" is cheap move and it shows ZERO solidarity. What a shill for white privilege.

BLM has _thrown ITSELF_ under the bus. 19.Nov.2016 21:23


How precisely is BLM going to 'fight against' and-or make any headway or gains, vs the "deadly Hitler Racist KKK" presidential administration?

I'm looking forward to explanations of exactly the tactics and strategy to be employed by BLM, to achieve such goals.

After all their actions from 2013 up to this point, have BROUGHT US ALL under the administration of Trump-Pence.

RE: "class war" (?) absolutely NOT my words. 19.Nov.2016 21:29


Mike Novack the Professional Concern Troll wrote:

"fight and win the class war"

I never, EVER have said 'class war' nor would I express such an ideological framework.

yet in the original post here I point out that left activism, and fighting against the 'powers that be' / establishment / status quo has quite simply documented to have been on the basis of class.

Establishment-ownership-of-capital class, vs. the shlebs like you and me who do all the work around here.

all I'm emphasizing here is that class is indeed a central component of any type of struggle and the further you ignore it or minimize its importance, the more you will get actual working class people favoring and voting in droves for nationalists (such as the Trump-Pence administration).

meanwhile you can 'convince yourself' that you're the ultimate "anti-racist" of all time. You still lose absolutely.

[quote] "garbage and undermines the justice movement" 19.Nov.2016 21:49


Precisely _how_ is this (reasonable request to discuss salient topics) 'garbage'?

and if it was then can you not just simply ignore it and proceed with your glorious successful movement which is going to Triumph?
(because the so-called 'garbage' is surely of no consequence....)

[quote] "undermines the justice movement"

How so?

Open discussion about and broaching of pertinent issues which directly relate to future organizing strategies for social change is somehow 'undermining' ??


(Hint: do you ever READ or comprehend what is actually posted on Indymedia.....)

further, what in the living ***k is the "justice movement"?

For / on behalf of whom?

Who do you represent? Non-whites? __________ ? Will these folk you embody-represent eventually 'take over' the U.S. and then the glorious Paradise will have been achieved?

(Yeah of course I know what the 'justice movement' is _supposed_ to be.) Problem is, with corporate capitalist plutocracy running the Democratic Party and they have now been proven 100% corrupt in deliberate sabotage of the 2016 'change' candidate Sanders you've been officially cut out of the loop. The 'underdog peoples' advocate party' is now de facto in marketing badge only.


Recognition Of 2016: Nixon-Level Corruption In DNC Means It's Time to Build A New Party

Democratic Party Attorneys Admit DNC Is Corrupt

Chris Hedges, Robert Reich Agree That USA 3rd Party Is Needed

the only way you will achieve 'success' of any measure, is to fully incorporate class BACK INTO the multiple tasks and campaigns of activism for change. As long as you utilize vague, broadly unfocused euphemisms such as "justice movement" etc. you can be assured of absolute failure.

which leaves us all with what, exactly?

well first of all, you clowns running around two full months before the president-elect even takes oath of office, yelling-screaming "DA SKYIIIIIIE IS FALLING" and a small cadre of you smashing peoples' windows in (all that does is raise their insurance rates natch).

but more importantly, the 2016 U.S. election (as did Brexit in U.K.) has totally delegitimized primacy of 'anti-racism' as the purported spearhead of social change movements.

The Death Of Neoliberalism And The Crisis In Western Politics

Your ideological balloon has been loudly popped / expired. Failure to recognize or admit/acknowledge the broader-than-U.S. geopolitical implications of all of this is a death knell.

Then of course, there's the NOT Just A River In Egypt :

I am NOT saying that 20.Nov.2016 04:48

Mike Novack

Somehow you are choosing to interpret "class struggle is not THE most important thing for all of us", that for some of us other issues are more immediate and cutting closer to the bone, with my saying "class struggle is irrelevant".

Nor am I suggesting that YOU (if you think class struggle IS the only thing worth fighting, and that this would lead to success on the other issues) shouldn't focus on class struggle. I am simply saying that you need to consider more carefully where OTHER PEOPLE are coming from. And while perfectly OK to try to argue them to your way of thinking over FACTUAL matters, you need to distinguish between facts and tenets of faith.

For example: "If we eliminate capitalism, things like racism will go away" is a matter of FAITH, not fact. Now I would never try to argue with a believer that some point of his or her faith isn't true. But I will point out to then that they should not assume that OTHER PEOPLE believe in the same "religion". You have to try to convince OTHER PEOPLE based upon the things that THEY believe to be true.

Imagine 20.Nov.2016 08:34


Imagine if _, instead of spending so much time scouring the internet so she can post other people's work, actually did something. Yeah, impossible to imagine.

"You have to try to convince OTHER PEOPLE" 20.Nov.2016 14:13


hey Mike just a reminder that it was you who typed/put forth the term [quote] 'class war'.

as to the "heirarchy" or place of importance for class struggle :

You and everyone/anyone else can interpret it however you wish. Decide for yourselves entirely

All I am emphasizing, is that right now the 'progressive' / other movement(s) for change are quite demonstrably not emphasizing it enough.
Trump for example, hijacked the working class from the entire Democrat political milieux this year.

How are you going to win that back, obtain a 'mass movement' of working Americans on your side?

[quote, Mike Novack] "facts and tenets of faith"
Indeed. This is what all progressives who "believed in Bernie" and then (reluctantly? or not...) put faith in HRC need to contemplate. In depth.

Imagine... if Garth wasn't PDX IMC's resident concern troll. 20.Nov.2016 14:34


"scouring the internet post other people's work, actually did something"

goin' for Attack The Messenger and Appeal To Authority in one post, eh Garthy-Warthy?

Garth (for one) has provided no response about his own community or social change activities :


But then we shouldn't expect any. Because Garth's entire raison d'etre consists of trolling the IMC whenever a discussion gets too far out of bounds. Then, and only then is it time for Garth to regale us all with his appearance.

Despite this, one or two respondents (even with their disagreements) to this topic thread

which btw is entirely my own work

have actually acknowledged the veracity of it i.e. the need to enhance inclusion of the working class in activism and movement(s) for change

Black Lives Matter Has Performed Very Well 21.Nov.2016 11:28


{quote} "Black Lives Matter" is not based on anything. It's just a vague feeling. {end quote} -- the OP

This is simply wrong.

It is the nature of movements today to issue one or two proclamations, and then to morph into something new, or else simply fade into the background. That's all.

It would probably be good if they would make specific demands, but that is not a necessity.

Black Lives Matter has proclaimed that the exaggerated police brutality perpetrated on blacks needs to end, and also that much more needs to be be done to deal with excessive poverty among the black people. And that is more than sufficient.

Of course this movement is not "perfect", as, for example, too much attention has been given to its alleged "co-founders"; Opal Tometi, Alicia Garza and Patrisse Cullors. Whatever these individuals have to say should not be considered relevant anymore.

The Occupy Movement was similar. Despite the worst possible organizational methods, strategies, and tactics, it certainly effectively publicized the message that the "1%" is at war with the "99%", and that was more than enough.

AGREED about BLM overall "message", + comparison w/ Occupy but 21.Nov.2016 15:17


it is still not an effective movement.
Whether or not I (yes, I do) agree with the general/overall idea of raising awareness about police violence towards African American citizens.

furthermore, Occupy fizzled out after 1 year (12 months).
YES of course Occupy 'lives on' in other forms/incarnations and has ABSOLUTELY, YES been a positive influence on future change movements.

So unless BLM, since its 2013 formation, has as of right now - late 2016 - chosen to 'stop using' its name / emblem for identification with demonstrations, actions etc. then there isn't a


parallel or comparison with Occupy. BLM - the name/label - has **NOT** [quote, blues] "faded into the background". Although I already agree, that the two movements do indeed have _broad_ similarities.

but I (and others) maintain that BLM is ineffective and IS NOT gaining new supporters, primarily due to :

1) lack of coherent short- or long-term goals to be achieved

2) specific chosen tactics, and locations/scenarios for deployment of these tactics.
Which end up being detrimental to even informing, let alone 'converting' or bringing others to their side.

Ignore this asshole, the revolution will happen whether he wants it or not 21.Nov.2016 20:14

black lives matter ! " _ " or whoever he is doesn't

If we don't fight for what we want we won't get it. If you still trust the people who run this country, and random people who post here, you won't have a revolution. Instead you will spend your life being trapped under someone's boot.

BLM Is "Ineffective" And IS NOT Gaining New Supporters??? 21.Nov.2016 21:47


Well, it gained me!

And I am part of the Progressives For Trump movement.

(MUCH) more about that yet to come!

Cynthia McKinney for Secretary of the Interior!

You want a demand for action? Here's one!

Protests/demands begin this week. I will protest in the Street!

Take care,
-- blues

The Struggle 21.Nov.2016 23:36

Joe Anybody

I stand in Solidarity! with Black Lives Matters

RE: "spend your life being trapped under someone's boot" 22.Nov.2016 08:28


Go ahead,

be "inspired" by BLM. I'm not trying to discourage anyone.

It is a totally disorganized and ineffective waste of time (and further has helped bring about the election of Trump via backlash from millions of working class Americans, for example read this  http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2016/11/433823.shtml ). The coming year 2017 will clearly demonstrate this.

Hope Against Despondency: Interpreting Class Post-Trump 22.Nov.2016 09:24