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Oregon - How to kill electric car industry in the larval stage.

Oregon's new law on taxing drivers by the mile not the gasoline consumed is designed to kill the electric car / alternative fuel industry before it takes off.
Forget the useful idiots who backed it, Follow the money on this one. Who lobbied for this bill? Who's fingerprints are on it? Oil companies? They are the ones who stand to benefit from it.

But maybe need to consider the origin of the gasoline tax? 23.Oct.2013 04:21

Mike Novack

This is NOT such a clear matter. Gasoline taxes were introduced in the first place to serve as proxy "road use tax" and the money raised by such taxes supposed to be used to pay for the road infrastructure. Considered easier to implement than a tax based on measuring mileage because in those days it was fairly easy to tamper with an odometer and easier on people's budgets to have a pay as go tax.

So......... while I agree with the problem of hurting electric vehicle development while that is still in its infancy you might want to explain how you would prefer electric cars to be paying for their fair share of road.

Notice that the gasoline tax was essentially charging heavier vehicles (more road wear) more as these tend to use more fuel than lighter vehicle.

More discussion needed?

Bicycle tax 23.Oct.2013 12:27

hb

I understand governments need for more and more money, anyway they can get it.

I'm not that I'm not in favor of taxes, income or road / fuel taxes. In Fact, I don't really care about electric vehicles. Its a cute concept, but not an economical one now, or anytime in the future without someone twisting the market in their favor. Get any auto sales manager drunk and they will tell you that Hybrid cars are a joke, actually harm the environment more, and are more expensive overall to operate.

That being said, its clear that a mileage tax is a direct assault on electric/alternative fueled vehicles. First as of now, there aren't enough on the road to warrant a serious attack on state highway revenue. That may change, but the big abusers of the road are 18 wheel trucks, not 4 wheel passenger cars.

But, if this mileage thing actually works and isn't filled with cheaters electronically spinning the odometer back to zero, then bicycles will be the next target of a money hungry government, because above all else, government must survive.

eh 23.Oct.2013 15:04

Clyde

"Get any auto sales manager drunk and they will tell you that Hybrid cars are a joke, actually harm the environment more, and are more expensive overall to operate. "

Get anyone drunk and they'll spout off plenty of opinions as though they are fact. Will these auto sales managers have any actual evidence to back up this claim that hybrids are worse for the environment? Because that really depends on where the electricity comes from, and that isn't a perfectly easy thing to pin down. It varies by region, etc.


"But, if this mileage thing actually works and isn't filled with cheaters electronically spinning the odometer back to zero, then bicycles will be the next target"

Bikes are already a target, even in the bike utopia that is Portland. They'll start with a purchase tax, and then probably institute some kind of bike registration, etc etc.
See below:
 link to www.oregonlive.com

And the idiots of this city will drink this up as they do almost all tax proposals. It is a shame that a city that considers itself as progressive will continually enact taxes that almost entirely impact lower income populations. I'm sure we all remember the recent arts tax, which as an effectively flat-tax is about as far from progressive as you can get.

clyde 23.Oct.2013 15:41

hb

taxes aren't just for rich people as you are finding out. poor people are the largest precipitants of benefits and so those people are to be taxed at a larger percentage than the total population, thus keeping them poor and in need of those who provide those services. Not my idea, and I hate the tactic, but it seems that is the result. You are right about the bikes. Time to pay your fair share as they say.

Now you pay $35K for your hybrid with 1 ton of nickel metal hydride batteries that must be replaced every 3 years or so, that squeaks you an extra 11 MPG over an efficient car like a Kia or a Hyundai that only half as much. That's $15K worth of gasoline that would take you an extra 160,000 miles @ $3.00 a gallon of gas.

Just think of poor earth-mother being ripped apart for her nickel metal hydride and other rare earth materials to build you a lib-mobile.

Hybrids are an ecological disaster being sold as some sort of green-weenie cart that saves the planet. its bullshit.

ok 23.Oct.2013 18:07

Clyde

"Hybrids are an ecological disaster being sold as some sort of green-weenie cart that saves the planet. its bullshit."

Ease up on the hyperbole a little there champ. Lets see some hard facts. Show me the ecological disasters caused by hybrids. Show me how that is in some way worse, in terms of overall environmental impact, than low mileage conventional cars.


Show me the impact of mining nickel metal hydride, and how it is worse than the effects of normal cars. I'm not a liberal by any means, and I don't own a hybrid, but I also think the whole reactionary "hybrids are even worse!!" response is silly and, of course, almost always lacking in actual evidence. It's as if right wing pundits started suddenly caring about poor mother earth, which is laughable in its own right.

clyde 23.Oct.2013 19:12

hb

I guess some of the sarcasm got lost on the page. My apologies. Seriously though, are you trying to tell me that mining tons of ore to produce 1 ton of rare earth metals that is only good for 36 months is better than about 200 extra gallons of gasoline? Please check my math. lets forget the gasoline /diesel used to dig up the ore, the coal fired power to smelt it and process it into batteries, the diesel to transport it to the car factory.

I'm figuring about 45 MPG for the hybrid (assuming a small Preius car and not an SUV) 33 MPH for the Kia/Hyundai. 36 months, at about 1000 miles per month. Thats a delta of about 200 gallons. Now you can bring in the power to process an move the ore discussed earlier.

Much like a Wind turbine. its a negative power device. It takes more power to produce it than it will produce in its lifetime. (I learned that from the Hyannisport/Kennedy crew fighting them off Cape Cod about 5 years ago.). The truth can be a scary thing.

this is what i'm talking about 24.Oct.2013 14:06

Clyde

"Seriously though, are you trying to tell me that mining tons of ore to produce 1 ton of rare earth metals that is only good for 36 months is better than about 200 extra gallons of gasoline? "

These are the kinds of figures I'm talking about. Tons of ore? battery life of 3 years? Show me those things. Just a quick online search shows me that some people (Consumer reports, for starters) have tested first generation hybrid batteries that are still doing just fine, around 10 years later. I'm sure some haven't lasted that long, but your whole rabid "hybrids are worse for the planet!" (as though you actually care about the environment) doesn't really seem to have much actual evidence.

 link to www.greencarreports.com

When you make claims, show some evidence. Google is easy to use. When you say "check my math" and then say hybrid batteries last for 36 months, I am expecting that you checked your own math first.

" with who and what is allowed to exist " 26.Oct.2013 19:13

-

If 'Clyde', 'hb' or 'Garth' had ever / would ever contribute(d) anything at all which:


1) Fosters/furthers productive discussion (no matter what political leaning) and exchange of ideas

2) Contains usable information, or verifiable facts

3) Makes any sense


then yes, I would be perfectly happy reading and dialoging with PDX IMC posts by (the likes of) 'Clyde', 'hb' or 'Garth'.


Until then your [Clyde's] pointless whining remains identical all your other voluminous, disruptive and detrimental waste(s) of bandwidth.

ok champ 26.Oct.2013 21:07

Clyde

I'm defending electric cars from stupid criticism in this thread.

You? You're whining, and certainly not contributing. At all. Get over yourself and stop expecting a site to conform to your vision of how it should be.

" Just Let Me Do My Job, Dammit ! " 28.Oct.2013 19:56

Clyde's Voice

Clyde is just a Regular PDX IMCer,

trying to good things for us all -- really, he is!

Don't Bring Up Anything Other Than FedGov's Explanation For 9/11, Tho