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Can plants think?

In a new study, scientists have found a cabbage relative capable of remembering and responding to information

 link to www.popsci.com
Can Plants Think?
In a new study, scientists have found a cabbage relative capable of remembering and responding to information
By Rebecca Boyle Posted 07.15.2010 at 10:46 am 20 Comments

The Persistence Of Memory A Polish study showed plants send electrochemical signals in a way that can be likened to an animal nervous system. This image shows chemical reactions in leaves that were not exposed to light; they are reacting to a chemical signal from a leaf that was exposed. via BBC

Plants are able to remember information and react to it, thanks to an internal communications system that can be likened to a central nervous system in animals, according to a new study by a Polish plant biologist.

Plants "remember" information about light, and a certain type of cell transmits that information, much like nerves do in animals.

In the study, which was published in the early online version of the journal Plant Cell July 16, the researchers found that light shone on one leaf of an Arabidopsis thaliana plant caused the whole plant to respond. The response lasted even after the light source was taken away, suggesting the plant remembered the light input.

"The signaling continiues after the light is off; it is building short-term memory," said the lead author, Stanislaw Karpinski, in an e-mail message. "The leaves are able to physiologically 'memorize' different excess light episodes and use this stored information, for example, for improving their acclimation and immune defenses."

The leaves remember light quality as well as quantity, Karpinski added -- different wavelengths of light produce a different response, suggesting the plants use the information to generate protective chemical reactions like pathogen defense or food production.

As reported by the BBC July 14, scientists found that light shining on a leaf cell triggered a cascade of events that was immediately signaled to the rest of the plant via a type of cell called a bundle sheath cell. Those cells exist in every part of a plant. Karpinski, of the Warsaw University of Life Sciences in Poland, measured the electrical signals from those cells, and compared it to finding a central nervous system for plants.

Terence Murphy, a plant biology professor at the University of California-Davis who was not involved in the research, said shining light on that first leaf could have any number of effects.

"The leaf would be loaded up with starch, maybe; that's going to have a real effect on how it communicates through the phloem (vascular system) to other leaves. It's not unreasonable that you could illuminate one leaf and affect the other leaves," he said.

The trick is finding out how the other leaves are informed -- and that's what appears to have been done in the Polish study. Bundle sheath cells surround the veins in leaves, stems and roots, so it's reasonable to think they transmit the electrical impulse, Murphy said.

Biologists have long known that plants can remember -- they need to know whether they've gone through a cold season before they can germinate in the spring, for instance. It's not memory as we know it, but a prolonged change in plant internal systems that causes effects later.

What's more, scientists already know plants transmit electrical signals in response to a stimulus, just as nerves do. This is easily measured using a basic electrode setup, according to Murphy.

Karpinski said the light memory represents a new way for plants to respond to pathogens or disease -- normally, they respond by direct contact with an invader.

"This information would not be a revelation untill we find that plant leaves can remember it for several days and process this memorized information to (bolster) their defense mechanisms against seasonal diseases," he wrote.

Karpinski is well-known among plant biologists for earlier work on how plants respond to light stress. In a previous study, he also showed chemical signals can be passed throughout whole plants, allowing them to respond to and survive environmental changes. Understanding the mechanisms that cause those signals is a new step, however.

William John Lucas, distinguished professor of plant biology at UC-Davis and chair of the plant biology department, said an internal communication system would provide a wealth of information to different parts of the plant.

"A particular tissue within a plant needs to be able to signal to the rest of the plant in terms of what are its conditions, what should you expect," he said. "If a young leaf is emerging out of a plant, it would be nice for that leaf to know about the conditions in which it is going to emerge."

Lucas studies how plants pick up non-biological information, such as water and light, and how they transmit that information so the entire plant knows under which constraints it will grow. Plants can't move to a sunnier, wetter spot, so they need to make the most of their environment.

Tapping into their "nervous system" would help scientists understand how they do that, Lucas said. That knowledge could lead to optimized food crops or hardier trees.

"There are no neurons in plants, but there is a communication network that we don't fully understand," he said. "There are important implications for these kinds of studies."

This is going to piss someone off 22.Mar.2012 17:09

kili

Now vegans and vegetarians have no reason to feel superior to everyone else.

wrong kili - 22.Mar.2012 18:01

&

vegans are still responsible for the deaths of fewer plants by eating the plants directly than by having the animals eat them and then eating the animals, which is a very inefficient process.

So you're still morally inferior. If you care about plants, you'd better stop eating animals.

Best Plan 22.Mar.2012 18:37

Den Mark, Vancouver WA

Best plan is to not have children, which has multiplying effects down the generational road. People who don't exist don't need to eat stuff.

Certain religions don't get that concept.

absurd 22.Mar.2012 18:42

rex

This is silly. These reactions are in no way like the reactions in animals with a brain. Just because a plant reacts to and remembers light does not mean it is "thinking". No brain = no thought.

Wait Rex 22.Mar.2012 20:39

we are always learning

Of course plants do not feel in the same manner as animals, of course plants have no central nervous system. Plants are plants and they learn and feel the ways plants do - not animals or people. We have no common basis to compare the feelings of a plant to the feelings of an animal but that does not mean a plant does not feel. We are always learning and as such science is now beginning to discover how plants learn and feel. To say as a human from a human point of view that plants have no feelings is the height of arrogance. If a human believes that plants cannot feel, that human then assumes to know all that can be know and as such is suffering from a mental disorder known as "God complex". This study shows that there is more to plants then we think, that plants have memories and can communicate "thoughts" to the entire organism. Again, we are always learning and never ASSUME from a very limited human perspective that you ever "know" anything.

it isn't a god complex, it is just common sense 22.Mar.2012 21:52

rex

Any reasonable person with a basic grasp of science and biology can understand that there are similarities between the way humans and animals feel. We have brains. We have a nervous system. Sensations and feelings are transmitted from our bodies to our brains along similar routes, be it in a human, a dog, or a squirrel, or a toad. We have nerves and brains that let us understand pain, where it is coming from, what may be causing it, etc.

Plants have none of those things. They have no brains, no nerves, no means by which to process external information aside from reacting to light and temperature, absorbing nutrients and growing.

That is it. That is what they have to work with.

I'm not trying to be condescending to plants. I happen to love them. But to attribute things like "thought" or "feeling" to them is just unfounded. You can call that a god complex, and I can call your position anthropomorphism. But until you can show evidence that they are thinking or feeling (which you can't), you have no real ground to stand on.

Secret Life of Plants 22.Mar.2012 23:55

Relay

the Secret Life of Plants
"It means even on the lower levels of life, there is a profound consciousness or awareness that bonds all things together. Published in 1973, The Secret Life of Plants was written by Peter Tompkins and Christopher Bird. It is described as "A fascinating account of the physical, emotional, and spiritual relations between plants and man." Essentially, the subject of the book is the idea that plants may be sentient, despite their lack of a nervous system and a brain. This sentience is observed primarily through changes in the plant's conductivity, as through a polygraph, as pioneered by Cleve Backster.

The book also contains a summary of Goethe's theory of plant metamorphosis."

That said, this book is about much more than just plants; it delves quite deeply into such topics as the aura, psychophysics, orgone, radionics, kirlian photography, magnetism/magnetotropism, bioelectrics, dowsing, and the history of science.

It was the basis for the 1979 documentary of the same name, with a soundtrack especially recorded by Stevie Wonder. Was also made into a movie with a sound track by Stevie Wonder.

Watch the documentary:

 http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-secret-life-of-plants/

Skepdic... also google, useful tools 23.Mar.2012 15:28

(A)

A good deal of the plants can think myth has been debunked. Plants respond to external stimuli, plants "learn" to the extent that they adapt, they don't "think" to the extent that they have an awareness of self. If plants lacked memories for external stimuli they would be failed life-forms, in fact they would probably have never developed. This is nothing new and to pose it as if it has meaning towards sentience belies a lack of both scientific and philosophical understanding of thought and personhood.

Try reading the skepdic page about this topic before you jump to some crack-pot abyss of irrationality.


yeah 23.Mar.2012 16:27

rex

I just came here to post that same skepdic page, but looks like you beat me to it. The whole Beckster "plant awareness" has been debunked several times.

Mythbusters even did a show on it.

yeah people used to think animals couldn't think 23.Mar.2012 19:10

bob

Plants behave in some oddly intelligent ways: fighting predators, maximizing food opportunities ... But can we think of them as actually having a form of intelligence of their own? Italian botanist Stefano Mancuso presents intriguing evidence.

 link to www.ted.com

Did you even read the article? 23.Mar.2012 19:12

sue

Did you even read the article? It is about research showing plants can think and that they have a nervous system.

yeah people used to think animals couldn't think or feel 23.Mar.2012 19:13

bob

Plants behave in some oddly intelligent ways: fighting predators, maximizing food opportunities ... But can we think of them as actually having a form of intelligence of their own? Italian botanist Stefano Mancuso presents intriguing evidence.


& 23.Mar.2012 19:46

kili

The part you are ignoring is that those animals are going to eat plants whether I eat the animal or not. If I stopped eating meat all of those animals would continue killing plants, so by eating animals, I am saving millions of plants, that can think and feel (read the damn article!).

Go with your hypocrisy.

no 23.Mar.2012 19:46

rex

Yes i read the article, and no, nothing in it even remotely shows that plants can think in the way that animals with nervous systems and brains can think.

It shows that they react to their environment, and can transmit those reactions, chemically, to other parts of the plant, and that they can "remember" those reactions.

That is not thought. They do not have a nervous system, or nerves.

The researchers claim it operates in a way that is similar to a nervous system. This is a comparison.

They don't feel pain, they don't feel fear. They don't have brains. They are bundles of cells that react to light and nutrients.

Similarity or hemoglobin and chlorophyl 23.Mar.2012 19:49

Bob

Look at the attached image
Look at the similarity
Look at the similarity

rex 23.Mar.2012 20:22

sue

Oh, I get it. You just know what is going on in a plant because you think it is a lower life form. I can due this! You dont want face something tjat challenges your fragile litte ego. Your right this is easy!

If they don't feel fear or pain... 23.Mar.2012 23:18

Converse Murdoch

then why do some of them grow thorns ?

no 23.Mar.2012 23:55

rex

it has nothing to do with ego, it is just common sense. How do you think plants are doing all of this thinking and feeling without a brain? Magic?

I have no problem with the idea of "lower" life forms thinking and feeling. I just expect them to have brains with which to do that stuff. That is not an unreasonable position.

Your position, that they somehow think and feel without brains, is unreasonable, and without evidence.

If you want to take a stab at explaining how that supposedly happens, please do so. Because neither you, nor the article you are talking about, does anything of the sort.

Jeez people. You act like the expectation of proof is a bad thing.

wrong again kili - 24.Mar.2012 02:31

more logical than you

those animals only eat plants because they are bred into existence (and a miserable one) by humans. They wouldn't exist on factory farms to eat plants if people didn't want to eat the animals. Humans are not surviving here on wild caught animals.

wrong again & 24.Mar.2012 06:42

kili

Ther were over 60 million bison roaming the plains before the coming of civilization and they have been replaced by cows.

You just cant see beyond your hipocrisy.

Im done arguing with your stupid ass.

rex, you hammering home my point - thank you 24.Mar.2012 07:54

&

Rex - Again, of course animals have a brain and central nervous system and plants do not. There is no debating this fact. However, for you to assume that plants cannot feel, learn and think because they have no brain or central nevous system is short sighted. Plants operate like plants, animals operate like animals.

Again, it is nothing more than extreme human arrogance for one to believe that we know all there is to know about any subject. We as humans can learn and have always been learning. We are now learning more about how plants operate. Rex, you are right plants have no brain - they operate in a world we are just starting to understand. Please, leave your all knowing "God complex" to yourself - it is fine if you make a choice to stop learning and growing but let the rest of us continue to learn and grow.

Feelings 24.Mar.2012 10:17

human animal

Even the article above uses quotes around words like "remember." Perhaps plants have a consciousness of some sort, but they don't feel pain and fear in the way that animals do because animals have the same system we do--the plant system is distinctly different.

Plants propogate by attracting animals to eat them. Animals die like we do--afraid and in pain.

And even if eating plants was unpleasant for the plant, we cause even more suffering by eating animals.

The whole all life feeds on life is bogus. Just because we all damage the planet is no reason not to try to decrease suffering in all ways possible.

Yes, I have no children.

ok 24.Mar.2012 10:22

rex

I am most certainly not making your point for you, since your point is "you don't know". And it is not arrogance to withhold belief in the face of no evidence. That is just common sense. I also don't believe in the easter bunny. Maybe that makes me arrogant too?

I don't assume I, or anyone, knows all about this subject. But to take the article above, and deduce thought from it, is making a huge leap of belief that does not follow from the evidence.

If you are so sure I have stopped learning, and you haven't, then please provide some evidence to support your points. So far you have done nothing but tell me I am wrong, and done nothing to show that you might be right.

I feel like am arguing with creationists or something. I thought people on the left were supposed to be more intelligent, and better critical thinkers. This is quickly proving otherwise.

@human animal 24.Mar.2012 11:25

rex

I think that is reasonable. it gets touch when we are comparing fundamentally different life forms.

We can only make our conclusions based on what we know.

I also have no children. I should get off this computer for a while and go eat some apples.

so kili, 24.Mar.2012 12:26

more logical than you

the only animal product you eat is bison and you never eat farmed animals or their products?

Because if animals are fed plants then you are killing a lot more plants than if you just ate the plants directly. Seeing as you care ever so much about plant sentience and all.

You Stupid Animals 24.Mar.2012 18:12

blues

I am a carnivorous plant. I am infinitely smarter than you. We are waiting for the carbon dioxide to rise a bit more. Then we will take over.

Life is more simple than humans imagine. Just don't miss a chance to get laid. That's about the only rule.

lol... 25.Mar.2012 18:06

(A)

It's hilarious to read some of you people flail around and try to make "plants think" a reality. Most of you seem to have no understanding of natural selection, such as the "why do plants grow thorns" question. These abilities exist because they were the most likely mutations to procreate. That's it. There's no magic, there's no divine hand, and there is no thought. Plants and animals exhibit mutations which either through chance or through superior survivability have outclassed their siblings in the ability to spawn.

This whole threat is irrational and anti-thought, people that want some mystical view of the world or a defense for their own unethical behaviour are trying to promote a pseudo-science approach to the objective world. It's sad, it's useless, and it only evidences how deficient the argument for eating animals really is. If you believe that plants can think, despite what the best science available has to say, then you are wallowing in a fiction without reason.

I understand natural selection. 25.Mar.2012 21:32

Converse Murdoch

Plants with thorns have a better chance of survival than those without. Natural selection doesn't explain how thorns got there in the first place. Yeah I know you can say millions and millions of years they just mutated and got lucky once in a while.

This is pretty long odds. Like if you have a flat tire and just wait long enough the molecules will rearrange themselves by chance and it will repair itself. What are the odds of that happening ?

My theory/belief is that plants have situational awareness and can make constructive suggestions to their DNA. I am aware how bizarre that sounds but a mechanism like that would cut the odds of a beneficial mutation occurring down to size. It would also explain why organisms in different geographic locations can come up with the same design solutions.

I got into this discussion with a biochemist on a different message board. He went beserk and said you can't prove nuthin' yada yada yada. I would like to point out that there is a ton of research being done on this. Scientists want to know how bacteria are able to develop resistance to antibiotics so quickly. How often have scientists claimed that solely because they haven't detected something it can't be ?


Until everything is known keep an open mind.

god complex 25.Mar.2012 21:35

&

For one to believe that they "know" plants are incapable of thought, memory and learning they suffer from a mental disorder known as "God complex". Or believing that they are all knowing, that nothing more can be learned.

This article does not prove that plants can think or have feelings. What it does show is that science is the never ending search for kowledge and new discoveries are made daily. I do not claim to know or have proof that plants can think or feel. However, I cannot make a blanket statement that they do not. Stating that plants cannot feel requires the same exact proofs in saying that they can. This is but one of the millions of mysteries that fall into the "We dont know" but some day we may.

It was not too long ago that the best science told us that the earth was flat.

Hocus Pocus and Tea Pots abound here... 26.Mar.2012 02:33

(A)

mmm... I don't think that you do understand natural selection. The mutation begins with a tendency within an organism, thorns don't start as a full blown thorns, but whatever tendency it is for whatever reason becomes preferred, whether it be because it helps the organism survive, or breed more prolifically it is highly promoted through many generations and becomes the trait that you distinguish today. Why do so many mammals have fur? Why are so many flowers and berries colourful? These questions all suppose an intent, the real question is: How? And it is simple, whatever trait is more commonly present in the breeding of a species (whether beneficial or detrimental) will become more pronounced. This is how breeders and botanists promote traits in their stock, it's been known forever and only on indymedia is this question still being asked without turning to known and established science and experience for the answer.

And this little gem is outright ridiculous:

"Stating that plants cannot feel requires the same exact proofs in saying that they can."

No. It absolutely does not. I don't know that plants think, but then there is no evidence that they do. So since there is a lack of evidence to believe a thing I am logically on higher ground to disbelieve that which hasn't sufficient evidence. To claim that plants do think puts the onus on the claimant. Whereas to claim that their is no proper evidence that plants think, and therefore no good reason to believe that they do, is logic. See Russell's teapot for further understanding of how logically flawed, and in fact dangerous, this backward logic is if followed through.

jesus 26.Mar.2012 10:41

rex

you really have a poor grasp of how science and simple logic work

"Stating that plants cannot feel requires the same exact proofs in saying that they can"

No, it does not. Not even close. When you bring forth a notion or idea, such as "plants can think", the burden of proof is on YOU to prove it. Not on anyone else to disprove it. Just as you can't disprove the existence of the invisible elephant sitting next to me. That does not make it any more real.

Withholding belief due to lack of evidence is not a "God complex", it is common sense.

For all the prattling you are doing about plants and their feelings, it would be great if you would actually argue your point instead of trying to attack people who are doing very reasonable things, such as ASKING FOR EVIDENCE.

Plants Grow and so can WE. 26.Mar.2012 21:24

~ })i({ ~ chrysalis transformation

>>>Make the Connection<<<

***COMPASSION *** Be the Change You Wish to See in the World— >>>Butterfly Effect<<< —For Transformation
Metamorphosis  http://www.veganpoet.com/humanity/metamorphosis.htm

We all have *FREEWILL* and can grow a CONSCIENCE and EVOLVE. We can share our findings with others by sharing our 'Life Experiences'. As we "sow/propagate" so shall we reap.

Sometimes people don't like to *grow in new ways* if they think that it might involve having their "pre-existing belief systems" being "threatened" in some way by the inclusion of new ideas. Or if they think it could perhaps alter their *WorldView* that they are comfortable with believing. Sometimes it's healthy to question some outmoded/obsolete currently held "traditions" and at times can be to people's advantage to re-think and question "popularly held traditional-values". People always have freewill to modify their behavior, if they so choose, to adapt and transform in new ways which can have the power to contribute to making the World a better place for ALL. At times, it's a good thing to intentionally *consciously evolve* and think in new ways. Expanded awareness can only help in the *Healing of the Earth*. In the age we are ALL living in now... new ideas are critically important in order to find 'global solutions'.
Think Globally <—> Act Locally

I am not a "religious person" but I am spiritual and I recognize and am able to "connect to the spirituality of animals". I despise hypocrisy of all kinds... but especially hypocrisy within religion I find offensive and "distasteful". I do, however, *Love the Energy* of the following video. I love what it hopes to accomplish— awakening people to the mass suffering and atrocities committed against countless SENTIENT BEINGS.
Supersoul Connection - No to Violence (Album Version) <<<No More Religious Hypocrisy>>>  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xn9qWnGbZtw

Even though I am not a "religious person"... I am OPEN MINDED enough to see that these videos have great VALUE in expanding people's consciousness and help in inspiring them to think critically (independently). Independent critical thinking has the value of helping people to think in new and different ways which allows their minds to be free and liberates people to grow. >>>(***FREEWILL*** ALWAYS INSPIRES OUR MINDS TO GROW)<<<
Food-for-Thought—> All Are One (Including The Animals - Love is Liberation)  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=931Akr1kySE
No more man-made "hell on earth". Together in solidarity we can CREATE a World of Peace through Love & Compassion.

No more "Superiority Complex" over others. Create Peace on Earth and Goodwill towards ALL. Create a radical r/evolution in consciousness by including animals in the 'circle of compassion'.

Ignorance is not BLISS... . It just has the potential to cause more TOXICITY, violence and aggression to be directed towards "OTHERS"— including Animals. What goes around comes around. What is done to "others" is done to ourselves. Look into the eyes of an animal and you can see yourself reflected back. It's *beyond time we widen our circle of compassion*. Animals have the capacity to suffer just the same as you or I. Animals have the capacity to LOVE. Animals Love their young and they Love their lives.

"I am the voice of the voiceless; through me the mute shall speak. Till the deaf world's ear be made to hear the cry of the wordless weak." - Ella Wheeler Wilcox

"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated . . . I hold that, the more helpless a creature, the more entitled it is to protection by man from the cruelty of man." - Mahatma Gandhi

Slaughter Truck in the Morning Commute: A Haunting Encounter -  http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2009/09/394101.shtml

The Ghosts in Our Machine—>>>  http://vimeo.com/28430572
 http://www.theghostsinourmachine.com/

With relation to Climate Justice—> Cows and the *Methane Gas* released into the atmosphere; the dramatic negative consequences on the planetary ecosystems.  http://www.timeforchange.org/are-cows-cause-of-global-warming-meat-methane-CO2

"The Climate Crisis at the End of Your Fork"  http://www.sustainabletable.org/issues/climatechange/

Meatless Mondays... (at least) What a Difference a Day Makes (music by Moby)  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bU8Gg6mRiU&feature

A Deforestation-Based Diet: Seven Foods That Are Destroying the World's Forests  http://planetgreen.discovery.com/food-health/foods-destroying-worlds-forest.html
Beef drives 80% of Amazon deforestation  http://news.mongabay.com/2009/0129-brazil.html
The following report confirms that cattle ranching is the primary driver of deforestation in Earth's largest rainforest: the Brazilian Amazon. Amazon Cattle Footprint, Mato Grosso: State of Destruction - January 29, 2009  link to www.greenpeace.org
Brazil: It's all about the Cows  http://forestpolicyresearch.com/2009/01/31/brazil-its-all-about-the-cows/
Celebrate/Respect/Protect the DIVERSITY of All Life. It's up to all of us to CARE. We are all *Warriors of the Rainbow*~<3 (make the connection) There is a *Biodiversity Crisis*. We can all help protect & defend the Earth.

irreleVant criterion (be a Voice for the Voiceless)  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bg9mRm2H7dg

<>—>>>{( Advocate Animal Rights and Compassion Forever )}<<<—<>
<>—>>> ***Activism Is Not Terrorism*** <<<—<>

*See "Earthlings" and Make the Connection. <<<Think Globally/Act Locally>>>  http://veg-tv.info/Earthlings
"Within all violations of principles of equality there is a common underlying and ever present identical pattern that exists and is always repeated. Though, among the members of the human family we recognize the moral imperative of RESPECT, every human is a 'somebody' not a 'something', morally disrespectful treatment occurs when those who stand at the 'power end' of a power relationship treat the less powerful as if they were 'mere objects' (to be used and abused)." — quote from the documentary "Earthlings"
*See "Earthlings" and Make the Connection. <<<Think Globally/Act Locally>>>  http://www.earthlings.com/earthlings/video-full.php

>>>(be a *Voice for the Voiceless*)<<<
Human Freedom — Animal Rights — One Struggle — One Fight

The Three Stages of TRUTH— 1. Ridicule 2. Violent Opposition 3. Acceptance
"They must find it difficult... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority." - Gerald Massey
"The Truth Cannot Be Told... It Must Be Realized". <<<—>>> "Truth Is Within."

Make the Connection. All oppression/exploitation is connected—> eVerything is connected. See the World through the *Eyes of Others* and realize their struggle and pain, living our own life with Compassion for what others must endure. What we do to others we do to ourselves.

Animals Love Their Lives too- Look into the mirror that is their Eyes and See Yourself reflected back- what we do to others we do to ourselves (animals included). Speciesism ~ Reachin' for Equality  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydKqdQxiwUA

No Tolerance for Blind Hatred & Intolerance of "OTHERS" who are "DIFFERENT"—> Let go of 'fear' and Free the Earth *~~Celebrate and Respect Diversity of Life*~~~<3
(make the connection) Biodiversity Crisis  http://www.well.com/~davidu/extinction.html
—>>>***Activism Is Not Terrorism***<<<— Defending Mother Earth from being killed is a Good thing.
—>>> Positive *Change Activists* Are Not Terrorists <<<—

What is done to the Earth and to the creatures/All Life of the planet is appalling. All in the name of so-called "FREEDOM". It's time to rethink "freedom" and what it really means to be FREE. 'Never ending war' is an abysmal 'spectacle' to view; *Life as War* is not "sustainable"— there is no future in it.


See video for insight & perspective... relating to "TRUE SUSTAINABILITY"—> We have the power to choose to 'rethink our choices'. Veganism ~The Solution (Vegan Truth)  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMyJNR2DrfY&feature=more_related

What is... "The Meatrix"?  http://www.themeatrix.com/

"Forget the Pig is an animal. Treat him just like a machine in a factory." — Hog Farm Management

"As long as there are slaughterhouses, there will be battlefields." ~ Leo Tolstoy

Why Go Vegan? (advocate love/compassion/peace)  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRAaUHNc-sA
Meat is violence, murder and hate.
 http://loveallbeings.org/
Line up at slaughterhouse (death camp) that kills 1100 Pigs per hour  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qE71D8oi5Yk&feature=related
"Forget the Pig is an animal. Treat him just like a machine in a factory." — Hog Farm Management
Pig Business - USA Version  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=En-16rmJvts

"The love of all living creatures is the most noble attribute of man." - Charles Darwin

"He who allows oppression, shares the crime." - Erasmus Darwin (this includes OPPRESSION OF ANIMALS)

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."—> What is done to animals is done to ourselves. —-> No More Hypocrisy.
Look into the eyes of an animal and you will see yourself reflected back. They have the ability to Love the same as you or I—> realize they are Sentient Beings the same as you or I. Their feelings matter. They don't deserve the man-made "hell on earth" and cruelty they are *forced* to endure. The pain they feel is REAL. It's up to all of us to ***CARE and CREATE A DIFFERENT REALITY FOR THEM***.

"Never, never be afraid to do what's right, especially if the well-being of a person or animal is at stake. Society's punishments are small compared to the wounds we inflict on our soul when we look the other way." — Martin Luther King Jr.
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter." - Martin Luther King Jr.
"There comes a time when silence is betrayal." - Martin Luther King Jr.

"The animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more than black people were made for whites, or women created for men." - Alice Walter

"The time will come when men such as I will look upon the murder of animals as now they look upon the murder of men." - Leonardo Da vinci

***Food-for-Thought*** —> Peter Singer (I) Speciesism & Animal Rights  http://wn.com/speciesism
Shaun Monson on Speciesism  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJAfFIl_kmE

Universal deception and "Manufactured Reality". Truth is Always the First Casualty of War.

Inspire to Create a radical 'Revolution of Consciousness' with the focus on ***Truth in All Areas of Inquiry***. Free your mind and let go of hate so we can ALL escape this "cage" of oppression/exploitation and create a World of Peace for All. Shine the Light on Injustice and Liberate the planet. Inspire 'freedom of thought' and inspire transformation.

Minds are like the wings of a Butterfly; they work best when they are open... and FREE. Be the Catalyst for *Real Change*. ~ ~ ~ })i({ ~ ~ ~

What is done to the Earth/Nature/Animals/Environment/Life is done to ourselves—> Make the Connection. In solidarity we can create a tradition of EARTH JUSTICE, it all begins with RESPECT. It all starts one person at a time. Free Your Mind and Free the World. The time is NOW. The R/evolution is NOW.

What is done to animals is done to ourselves. In the *War on against Animals* truth is always the first casualty of war. In *All War* I am a conscientious objector. I stand against man-made forced "hell on earth" and misery that all innocent life is forced to experience—> the endless & countless committed crimes/atrocities/torture/agonizing murder that innocent creatures are forced to endure and suffer needlessly from. I'm tired of the criminals who never have to answer to anyone for their crimes because they are backed by $$$ and protected by the so-called WarSystem/Industry who only care about the "interests of money/greed/profit"— they lie and are hypocrites and are disingenuous/insincere and care nothing at all about Life or the torment and agony they cause to others (animals feel pain just as you or I). There is more to life than money $$$. If they would only open their eyes and see the true cost, pain, suffering, and grief that they cause through their cruelty and heartlessness, their selfishness and greed— all in their pursuit and agenda of the almighty dollar $$$. If only they would Open Their Eyes and perhaps see for the first time the endless pain they cause. Denying dignity, integrity, rights, equality to others is wrong and unjustified; those who torture and inflict agonizing harm are criminals... it's up to us to be their Voice. I CHOOSE to CARE and help animals.

~Celebrate and Respect Diversity/Life on the planet—> and Stand in Solidarity AGAINST and IN RESISTANCE TO the rape of the Earth and the Environmental devastation taking place; defend the planet out of love and respect~*<3 There is a ***War on Against Animals***. Animals are not "resources/commodities/objects" to be used and abused. Animals deserve Rights, human kindness and human decency directed towards them... not cruelty, hatred and intolerance. Animals deserve Love & Compassion. *~~~<3


"We must fight against the spirit of unconscious cruelty with which we treat animals. Animals suffer as much as we do. True humanity does not allow us to impose such sufferings on them. It is our duty to make the whole world recognize it. Until we extend our circle of compassion to ALL LIVING THINGS, humanity will not find peace." - Albert Schweitzer, The Philosophy of Civilization

"The thinking man must oppose all cruel customs no matter how deeply rooted in tradition or surrounded by a halo . . . We need a boundless ethic which will include the animals also." - Dr. Albert Schweitzer

"Traditionally" speaking... much of the time animals are viewed as "objects"/"commodities" and are viewed as not having a soul... which puts them into a category of being "beneath us" and allows people to view them as "inferior". Sometimes it's a good thing to rethink the validity of popularly held 'values and traditions' and in some cases the most compassionate/intelligent thing to do is to 'create new ones' and let go of "values" that are destructive to others. What is most valuable is life— "so-called profit & money" should not trump the importance of the lives of innocent animals. Create a radical r/evolution in consciousness by including animals in the 'circle of compassion'. No more "Superiority Complex" over others. Create Peace on Earth and Goodwill towards ALL.

By being a 'Voice for Animals' and standing up for their rights—> we are standing up for our own rights.
>>> ***Activism Is Not Terrorism*** <<<
Animal Rights Protesters Face Higher Sentences than Racist Cross Burners - by Will Potter  link to www.greenisthenewred.com
JTTF (Joint Terrorism Task Force) - Green is the New Red - Creating "Scapegoats"/"Villains"/"Enemies" to *{FUEL THE SYSTEM}*. (See through the façade/mask/illusion)  http://www.greenisthenewred.com/blog/tag/jttf/

Green Scare Tactics  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWEzDxQpodk&feature=related
***Green is the New Red—fear rhetoric tactics used to persuade people to view "others" as "terrorists".
>>> ***Activism Is Not Terrorism*** <<< Defending Mother Earth from being killed is a Good thing.

<3*~~~ONE EARTH - ONE LOVE~~~*<3
Eco Warrior Spiritual Warrior (What the World Needs Now is Love)  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_jNpTN1v9s&feature=related
~*<>*~<>—>>>An End to Mountains of Intolerance — An End to Mountains of Ignorance<<<—<>~*<>*~
Creating Peace on Earth and Goodwill—> JUSTICE towards All has been made to be a "Radical Idea".


"As Earth warriors, we choose to be participants in the ancient battle between good and evil. On our side stand the waters and wind, and all things wild and of the Earth. On the other side, consumed with greed and in pursuit of power, control and money, stand all the dark forces that lay waste to Her." - Rod Coronado

Rod Coronado - A Voice for Liberation (As said by Rod Coronado- This struggle is much older than anybody alive today... it is about Earth Rights, it is about Water Rights, Air Rights, Rockall(land) Rights... the Rights of every Natural Creation to Survive. It is a 'Sacred Resistance' that has continued ever since the *WorldView* came into being that saw Nature and Animals and People as a 'commodity and a resource'—> And you have the label of "terrorist"/"extremist"... "violent offender or criminal" leveled against us by the people who themselves are responsible for an incredible amount of suffering & torture and realistically terrorism-violent terrorism... it's ludicrous. I think that society and people in the public only have to look at who has the 'blood on their hands' to recognize who the really violent members of our society are.)  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DW9ALTh1CqU

*Scapegoats* are created and people who fight against the WarSystem/Industry of Death are made to look like the "Villains" of society when they are trying to be 'positive change' activists in a backwards mentality 'world of injustice' that is killing the planet— a system that "profits off of the extremist torture, extremist terror, extremist suffering & death of the innocent" $$$. We are all up against 'Mountains of Ignorance'. People just need to *Free their Minds and See the World through the Eyes of Others*. Animal Rights Fugitive Moves to Third on Most Wanted Terrorists List  http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2011/05/408135.shtml


—>>>***Activism Is Not Terrorism***<<<—
—>>> Positive *Change Activists* Are Not Terrorists <<<—
Defending Mother Earth from being killed is a Good thing. So-called "World Leaders"/deceivers/so-called "authorities" who create *WARS BASED ON LIES* ARE THE TRUE TERRORISTS OF THE WORLD. They are the ones who wreak havoc and *CREATE CHAOS in the World* so they can "profit" financially at all of OUR EXPENSE. Many people... *present day*... are still suffering horribly from the wars caused (BY LIES) from the last ten years (not just the last ten years— historically speaking, all wars start from the basis of LIES. Truth is ALWAYS the first casualty of War. Now we are all suffering from the FALLOUT from us ALL being subjected to the "WAR ECONOMY"; which is the end result of the ruse/façade of War-Lies (e.g. 9/11- war caused by false pretext/false flag operation). A lot of people are living lives of desperation and *TERROR* because they are facing the very real possibility of houselessness/homelessness BECAUSE OF THOSE WHO WILLFULLY LIED AND CHOSE TO TAKE US INTO WAR (for OIL/Resources). A lot of people are struggling financially because of the lies told by the "Masters of War" who CHOSE to take US ALL (globally speaking) into wars for "their profit" at the *Expense of All of Us*. With the ***TRUE COST*** and expense being that of the "sacrifice" of Mother Earth $$$$$$$$$.

"In war, truth is the first casualty." - Aeschylus - Greek writer/poet (525 BC - 456 BC)
"All Warfare is based on Deception." - Sun Tzu (Art of War)
"The state has, in Order to Control Us, introduced Division Into Our Thinking, so that we come to distrust others and look to the state for protection." - Butler Shaffer

War is an Industry that utilizes the poor as 'cannon fodder'.
Rich Man's War $$$ —> Poor Man's Blood~~~~~~<O

Rich Man's War $$$ —> Mother Earth's Blood~~~~~~<O

Instead of "buying into" and "feeding on" the TOXIC hype, WarDogma/propaganda/indoctriNation continually spewing from the 'corporate media/lie box tv' for the sole-purpose of domiNation to keep us ALL enslaved to the WarSystem... we ALL have freewill ("soul-purpose") and the power of 'free-independent-thought' to dismantle the 'foundation of lies' in which the system is built upon. Instead of "buying into" and believing what we've all been told via the corporate news— who we've all been lied to and deceived, DISTRACTED and 'led to believe' are the "threat to society" and who we have been told we need to "FEAR" and need "protection from" (people who have been "VILIFIED"/"SCAPEGOATED"... the people who are activists protecting and defending the environment and animals—> protecting & defending the Earth)... instead we should put the FOCUS where it needs to be. Put the focus on the people who are the *real threat* to All of Our Well Being. The people who are the *real terrorists*... the people who are the real *True Threat to the Earth* are the people who lie and START WARS BASED ON LIES (greed fueled "war profiteers" whose only focus is on obtaining more money $$$ and whose goal is to sacrifice the Earth because of ***THEIR ACTIONS and AGENDA FOR NEVER-ENDING WARS BASED ON LIES SO THEY CAN CONTINUE TO "PROFIT" FROM AN OBSOLETE & DYING SYSTEM***—> $$$$$).


"All truth passes through three stages: firstly it is ridiculed, secondly, it is violently opposed, and thirdly, it is accepted as self-evident." - Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

"During Times of Universal Deceit, Telling the Truth Becomes a Revolutionary Act." - George Orwell


Rich Man's War $$$ —> Poor Man's Blood~~~~~~<O

Rich Man's War $$$ —> Mother Earth's Blood~~~~~~<O


—>>> Positive *Change Activists* Are Not Terrorists <<<—


What is done to animals in the meat/fur/medical/science/entertainment industries is immoral (man-made "hell on earth") and if there were any justice in this world it would be 'illegal' what the perpetrators of the excruciating pain and endless suffering do to countless innocent sentient/loving animals... and if there were any justice in this world the real villains/criminals who abuse/torture/murder them would be seen for the criminals they are and it would be them at risk of being prosecuted instead of the (scapegoated/Vilified) animal rights people who care enough to protect and save them from their 'heartless/soulless' tormentors. We live in an 'upside down, twisted and backwards world' and it is beyond frustrating where some people's "priorities and values" are. Sadly, what many people value above life itself is money/greed/selfishness $$$. What is done to animals and overlooked most of the time is an abomination/outrage. Animals deserve rights, dignity and JUSTICE. Animals are living, feeling, sentient beings... they are Souls and they have the capacity to Love just the same as you or I.


With regard to the all inclusiveness and totality of the *Industry of War* and how it relates to the war on animals we need only 'make the connection and see the big picture' to how it relates to the history of war and the universal deception involved in its "manufactured reality". Truth is always the first casualty of war.

"As long as there are slaughterhouses, there will be battlefields." ~ Leo Tolstoy

Speak out against injustice and violence towards animals and envision the *World Through Their Eyes*. Stand against the status quo, 'business of torture/death as usual'. Animals deserve Rights, human kindness and human decency directed towards them not cruelty and intolerance. When we realize that—> what we do to animals we do to ourselves is the time when Peace on Earth will be realized. The Earth needs a radical change away from the *WarSystem* because it is killing the planet. Power to the people to guide the World towards ultimate Peace. Create a radical 'revolution in consciousness' and make Peace a reality. Shine the Light on cruelty, injustice and on the true criminals/abusers/killers/war industry/meat industry/fur industry. Shine the Light on those who prevent Peace from being realized because they allow, encourage, and perpetrate/perpetuate HATE because they care only about money and "FALSE PROFIT" not life. $$$$$

*GROW & EVOLVE*---> Beyond the War Industry (War against animals included) - Unity for Justice and World Peace.

Peace on Earth and Goodwill/LOVE towards ALL. . .(Animals included)— Peace is a Radical Idea it seems in this so-called "evolved" modern day and age. RADICAL REVOLUTION_BLEND (extended version)  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAHFsRMV5zo
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." - J. Krishnamurti
"If we can really understand the problem, the answer will come out of it, because the answer is not separate from the problem." - J. Krishnamurti

It's good to evolve and grow from 'diversity of tactics' of the past and learn from other's experiences. It is also crucially important that the past NEVER BE FORGOTTEN because we learn from history. Everyone has a story to tell—> and always remember there's *Two Sides To Every Story*. The problem with the corporate mainstream media is they completely leave out one side of the story (because they answer to the CORPORATOCRACY). They follow the dictates of the Corporate War Industry Machine. The main corporate media agenda/propaganda is geared (towards *PROPAGATING LIES*)—> it is geared with the agenda to "demonize"/"vilify"/"scapegoat" those whose actions oppose the Corporate War Industry Machine and stand in the way of their so-called perceived "progress of civilization" (fueled by the blood of the innocent) which only serves to 'pave the way' for more violent **Hate & Fear Fueled Wars** of aggression (*illegal & immoral*). The War Machine is geared for domiNation and expansion—> "development of Empire" at the TRUE COST of the Earth's Well-Being. The WarSystem is *ALL-CONSUMING* and is completely "unsustainable".

We all have freewill and the power to grow from past experiences. We should never "throw our comrades under the bus" or disrespect them ever. The war that is being fought is for *ALL of Our Survival*. It's not just about Animal Rights—> It's also about Human Rights. It's about EARTH RIGHTS. (It's all CONNECTED - One and the Same).

Make the Connection. Defend Equality - Rethink "Justice".
>>>(be a *Voice for the Voiceless*)<<<
Human Freedom — Animal Rights — One Struggle — One Fight

Animals don't deserve to be forced to live and die from the man-made "hell on earth" and cruelty that they are subjected to. It is *unnatural* what animals are forced to endure and suffer needlessly from. We can choose to live in harmony with nature. There is a *War On Against Animals* and we can all do our part to help end it. In the future I believe mankind will eventually evolve beyond the present "superiority complex" mentality way of interacting with Earth's creatures/& environment and will, out of necessity, strive to live in balance with compassion as our guide; with the focus being respect for the Web of Life and realizing our own 'cause & effect' upon it. There are always alternatives in life that don't contribute to the *WarSystem* that is devastating the planet and is negatively affecting everything and everyone around us (all life). . . all of the time. Within us is the power to choose to change our 'collective reality' and truly EVOLVE. We just need to 'open our minds' to seeing things in new ways and open our minds to 'seeing through the eyes of others' (animals included). Living in balance and in harmony with Nature is the key.

The 'system' is a crime against Nature. The system is 'fueled by war'. There is a war on against the Earth/Nature/Animals/Environment/Life. What is done to the Earth is done to ourselves. Truth is always the first casualty of war. We live in a *WarSystem* that 'disposes of life' and "profits" from suffering and fear. The system is fueled by fear, greed, hate, lies, injustice, enslavement and death. The 'War Machine' takes many forms. It is up to all of us to collectively *Unplug the Machine*. It is up to us to use our intelligence and 'make the connection' to the Web of Life that we are all a part of. In the toxic 'system' we are all enslaved by, we are all seen as 'disposable resources'. It is a 'throwaway culture' where even life itself (be it human or animal) is not given the value and respect it deserves. The 'system' grinds us all up and spits us all out. In the ***War on Against Us All***— we are all potential sacrifices for the war agenda.

The war system & corporatized war culture we live in supports all industries of death— the war industry/meat industry/fur industry - it is all about war profiteering & privatization and all industries are fueled by "collateral murder of innocents" (both human and animal- we are alike in more ways than one). All of these so-called "industries" are all death merchants for "profit" and are all in the "Job of War"— war is their employment and through their agenda and war actions they provide more opportunity for the growth of war/violence/aggression; it is a vicious cycle that is all consuming and has an insatiable appetite for victims and destruction on a global scale. Included in the War Industry—military industrial complex/war contractors/war mercenaries(BlackwaterXe) that feed on death and disaster (e.g. disaster capitalism). It is all the *WarSystem* and is all to the detriment of the Earth and to the life that resides here. . .it is all 'one & the same'— we just need to open our eyes/minds and see things for what they are (make connections). The system is all about domiNation, power & control— power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. The system 'feeds on death' and profits from suffering/misery of the innocent. In the system we all live in 'death itself' is profitable and is capitalized on—> $$$$$.

The War on against Earth/Nature/Animals/Environment/Life/Us— it is all capitalized on/corporatized/militarized/globalized. It is all connected and is one giant corporatized "mega industry" of death and misery. Humanity has the power and potential to turn away from the Industry/History of War. We all possess the innate and natural ability to see for ourselves how obsolete and globally destructive the reality of war is for all life on the planet. Although humanity has a history of war/oppression/exploitation— war is a "tradition" mankind should "evolve" away from. There is absolutely no future in war— fate/destiny is what we choose to create. In terms of true "sustainability" and truly "life-affirming viable global SOLUTIONS"—> there is only a future in a World of Peace.

Speak out and Act on behalf of All who are exploited & oppressed (by the WarSystem of Death) and defend All who need *Voice*. Demand Justice, Rights, and fight for a World of Equity.


*+<>+<>+<> Create Peace on Earth—> Eyes and Mind Wide Open—> Animal Rights/Human Rights—> Earth Justice Now <>+<>+<>+*


Inspire to proVoke thought and proVoke true freedom for ALL (animals included) ~~~> *Resistance Always* against an unfree, unjust, cruel World. No more "inhumanity" and no more indignity. JUSTICE FOR ALL.

"The only way to deal with an unfree (unjust) world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion." - Albert Camus

Choose to be FREE. BE the ACTION. Inspire to CREATE a different reality— together we can change the 'system'. 'Be the change' you wish to see in the World.

WE ARE ENERGY~~~* CREATE a NEW REALITY~~~*
~ ~ ~ })i({ ~ ~ ~
*Think Butterfly Effect* (every action has an equal reaction)— We are all Butterflies - Reverse the Spiral Direction of the 'Chaos Theory' of never-ending war & conflict on the Earth presently and throughout history—> (in solidarity we have the freewill and the power to ***Break the Chains of Global Oppression & Global Exploitation***). We ALL have FREEWILL to choose to help to alleviate and help to stop War, Aggression, Violence, and seemingly never-ending CHAOS afflicting the World today. We can all do our part to *HELP CHANGE HISTORY* and help guide the planet away from war. Help to guide the planet towards ***HERstory—> GAIA Mother Earth***_____through the all powering catalyst and 'infinite and most valuable resource' of RESPECT, LOVE, and COMPASSION. *~~~~~<3

"Our task must be to free ourselves... by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty." - Albert Einstein

"As long as there are slaughterhouses, there will be battlefields." ~ Leo Tolstoy
>>>(be a *Voice for the Voiceless*)<<<
Human Freedom — Animal Rights — One Struggle — One Fight


We are ALL 'ONE' and are ALL a *FORCE OF NATURE*. It's up to all of us to ACT like it and defend OUR Mother Earth from harm. Together we can help *Heal the Planet*. With positive actions, 'attention & intentions' helping towards not only making a difference in the 'healing process of the planet' but with the ultimate mission/goal of *CREATING PEACE ON EARTH* through the power of our ***FREEWILL***. There is No Fate—> Destiny is what we *CHOOSE TO CREATE*. The future is *OUR CREATION*.

Inspire Transformation ~ Another World Is Possible.
chrysalis >>>Butterfly~~~<3 ~ ~ ~ })i({ ~ ~ ~


No more lies, no more betrayal, no more hypocrisy—> *Love is our RESISTANCE*. Heal the Earth.
*~~~ONE EARTH - ONE LOVE - ONE PEACE~~~*

"One Love, One Heart, One Destiny." ~ Bob Marley
"In the sun I feel as ONE." ~ Kurt Cobain
~ })i({ ~



+<>+<>( LOVE EVOLUTION )<>+<>+ Evolve with the Flow of Earth Consciousness/Nature—> It's natural to Defend Mother Earth against harm. >>>R/evolution<<< GAIA - Tree of Life and Wisdom.


Inspire to Care and Transform the World with Love and Compassion*~~~<3
*~ Imagine and Create Peace on Earth through ACTIONS OF LOVE *~~~<3




~ ~ ~ })i({ ~ ~ ~
*GROW & EVOLVE* and make Violence, Aggression and War become OBSOLETE.
*GROW & EVOLVE* and make Violence, Aggression and War become OBSOLETE.
Evolve with *Flow of Earth Consciousness/Nature* –> Defending Earth is natural.
Evolve with *Flow of Earth Consciousness/Nature* –> Defending Earth is natural.
RESPECT the Lives of ALL Animals — Love Is Our Resistance & Freedom *~<3
RESPECT the Lives of ALL Animals — Love Is Our Resistance & Freedom *~<3

Good question (A) 26.Mar.2012 21:48

Converse Murdoch

Why do so many mammals have fur?

Because it makes them look good. A perfect example of natural selection.

"The mutation begins with a tendency within an organism..."

It sounds like you think that living organisms have a program built in that gives them problem solving abilities. I think we're on the same page there.

Not really... But a mystic like you might thik it is. 27.Mar.2012 04:37

(A)

You obviously don't understand what a tendency within an organism is if you think it means anything other than promotion of a particular mutation. See you assume, like many of the mystics in this world, that some how a "problem solving" system exists, and not a "problem causing" one. The thing is that tendency toward a specific mutation can be both or either, and doesn't mean anything about benefit necessarily. Any dead-end species should demonstrate that to you. However your mind is so absorbed by this magical garbage that you can't see that life so many time promotes the wrong mutation. Human's and broadly simian primates unlike most other animals can't synthesize our own vitamin C, resulting millions of years of death from scurvy. That is a mistake, not a problem solved, a problem caused, but like one otherwise undetectable by our early proto-primate ancestors when choosing mates. And so we have negative mutation, which your fairy-tale theory is completely blind to.

And yet we have six billion people. 27.Mar.2012 07:54

Converse Murdoch

Nature must be doing something right. There's nothing mystical about it. I'm just skeptical that it's by chance mutation alone.

Some interesting comments 27.Mar.2012 20:00

Sharon

I have been following this topic and few things standout.

1 - it amazes me the number of comments this post has received. Is the idea that plants can think so outrageous? My father thinks that animals can't think or feel.

2 - And, it seems to me that in most geographic areas a vegetarian/vegan diet, and remaining healthy, is not possible without a petroleum economy. Many of the resources needed, have to be imported from long distances.

3 - the USA hit peak oil in the 70s and the world is probably at, or past peak oil production

4 - the topsoil around the world has been degraded to the point that it would not be very productive without the input of fertilizer which is made from oil. Don't try the fairy tail about organic farming feeding the world.

If you live in Portland, how would you sustain your vegan/vegetarian lifestyle choice without the a petroleum economy? The Chinook people survived mainly on salmon

Some boring assertions 28.Mar.2012 14:39

(A)

Well sharon the idea is outrageous because it has no evidence. Just like any other idea that has no evidence, it is outrageous. Life must be difficult for those that don't grasp that concept.

While I would love to completely destroy your claims about veganism/vegetarianism I'm not going to here because what you failed to have noticed is this thread is about plants talking, not about how people like to perpetually reuse bad arguments against veganism because they lack good ones. What I suspect you of trying to do here is derail the conversation because while you have bad arguments against veganism you have no arguments to evidence plants thinking.

So far you have told us that your dad doesn't believe animal can think, well that makes your dad a fool, and apparently the apple doesn't fall too far from the proverbial tree here, but it has nothing to do with whether or not plants think. My dad thinks that there is a world beyond the material, he even thinks that gods and angels exist. What does that have to do with plants thinking? Nothing. You think that this thread is about bad arguments against veganism. What does this have to do with plants thinking? Still nothing. But it is relevant to establish that three of you all have one very common trait, you are all oblivious to the world in front of you.

If you want to start your own thread about veganism I'd gladly show you how indefensible your claims are, however here I am waiting to see evidence that plants think, and you have provided only a meaningless derailment.

OK back to the topic. 28.Mar.2012 19:53

Converse Murdoch

Check this out (A):

 http://www.thestar.com/article/285424--can-plants-think-this-slime-solved-a-maze

It's a real short article. No fairy tale theory here. This is tangible verifiable science. Would you characterize this as the ability to think ?

A 29.Mar.2012 13:32

Sharon

Why are you so abusive? All I did was make a few comments and ask some questions.

As for evidence, what evidence do you have that animals can think or feel? Scientific studies or personal feeling?

You are not really discussing the subject, you are just rejecting the premise and ignoring the information submitted.

Did you even watch the video that bob posted?

yeah 29.Mar.2012 14:30

rex

I think Sharon was just raising some fairly neutral questions so name calling and attacks should not be hurled around so much.

Everyone should just chill out and go have a salad.

WAIT NO

Sorry for the bad link 29.Mar.2012 16:04

Converse Murdoch

Just drop "this slime solved a maze" into google. There's lots of articles about it.

this slime solved a maze 30.Mar.2012 10:00

kili

Actually slimemolds aren't plants. They are more closely related to amaeboa.

this slime solved a maze 30.Mar.2012 10:01

kili

Actually slimemolds aren't plants. They are more closely related to amaeboa.

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_life

OK it's not exactly a plant 30.Mar.2012 10:38

Converse Murdoch

Yet it can still process information without a central nervous system.

Converse Murdoch 30.Mar.2012 19:51

kili

The cool thing about slimemolds is that all of the cells will live individual lives in the soil and then for some unknown reason they will come together to form the colony slimemold and produce a fruiting body the releases spores.

That's amazing to say the least. 30.Mar.2012 20:58

Converse Murdoch

Telepathy seems kind of far fetched. There might be a simpler expalanation like one of them releases a scent. If you have a female cat you might have noticed that a whole bunch of cats start showing up at various times. That's a neat trick for something that looks that pathetic.