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The ISO and BP how Capitalism is destroying the planet do you agree?

The ISO is having a discussion about the BP oil spill and how Capitalism is destroying the planet. They are saying that Socialism would be better and if oil production was state controlled then we would not have these disasters happen. I don't agree an here is why.
Socilaism is a moral philosophy as is capitalism. Today we tend to think of them both as sciences but they started as moral philosophies and remain so today. Socialism shares with captalism as far as I can tell, and I am not the only one saying this a economic growth worldview. Which is to say Industrialization is inevitable and we can and must continue to grow the economy.
The big problem that I see with this is that we live on a finite planet and that there is only so much stuff that we can chew up and spitt out. A lot of people believe that science is going to save us, and I think that not only is this not possible it is foolish. This is coming from someone who has been studying peak oil for the last six years and believe it to be resl snd believe that we have already past it.
What are your thaughts on the matter? And does anyone want to go with me on the 29th to debate tgis with the ISO? Thanks

Here is a link to the event  http://portlandsocialists.org/

I'm afraid I have to disagree 20.Jul.2010 22:59

Thorn

As much as I despise the ISO (and I do) there is an important distinction between Capitalism and Socialism in any form. Capitalism by its very design requires the production of Capital and the expansion of Industry. When that expansion and production declines, you have a Recession. When it stalls, you have Market Failure/Depression. Industrialization and economic growth, while interrelated, are not interchangeable. In Marxian thought the Proletariat revolution shall occur when Capitalism produces a sufficiently industrialized and uniform global economy. The following stage of social development, Socialism, is intended to mark the period in time where the means of production - Industry - are used only to sustain the human race; rather than under Capitalism where they are used to expand and destroy Capital. While depletion shall continue under Socialism, the truth of the matter is that consumption is an inevitability of existence. They key point to focus on is the DIFFERENCE in depletion - like taking a sip of water in comparison to gorging yourself at an all you can eat buffet, Socialism is, in comparison, significantly less consumptive than Capitalism. This is to say nothing of how workplace democracy and decentralization (none of that Leninist garbage, genuine Socialism) will give us a far greater control of how much we consume than a continued reliance on a Bourgeoisie/Managerial class under Capitalism would.

Thorn is essentially right 21.Jul.2010 04:47

Mike Novack

Continuously pointing out how destructive capitalism is for the argument does NOT (by itself) make that socialism WILL be better in that regard.

Continuously pointing out that it is necessarily a characteristic of capitalism to require expansion and that THIS property might not be present under socialism does NOT mean that it will be absent. That's just an argument that socialism COULD POSSIBLY be better. But the people who keep making this argument refuse to specify any better model; in fact trefuse to specify ANY model. That makes their argument "any form of socialism would be better" and that simply is not the case.

Besides -- a major logic flaw thinking that arguing against capitalism is the same as arguing FOR socialism. For that to make sense you have to have already bought in to a theory of history that is purely linear with a directed arrow of "progress". In other words, have to BELIEVE (as in religious beliefs) that the only alternative to capitalism is socialism. Clearly in the past we humans have managed to organize our societies in ways that were neither (capitalism is at most a few hundred years old).

Don't take that wrong --- All I mean by that is "historical determinists" can't ASSUME all of us out here accept that theory of history as truth. Need to always be including in your arguments "and assuming that historical determinism is true and that we humans have "progressed" to the point where the only social arrangements possible are capitalism or socialism" THEN arguing against capitalism is arguing FOR socialism.

Re: Thorn is essentially Right 21.Jul.2010 20:50

Thorn

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with Mr. Novack. "Historical Determinism" is a pejorative applied to Marxism by those who don't fully understand the nature of Marx's work. This is partly because Marxism is a complex subject, partly because it has been politicized, and partly because Leninist organizations like the ISO have really screwed it up. The "laws" that define progress in Marxist thought were not intended to serve as some supernatural endorsement of a particular ideology over another. Rather they were meant to emphasize the fact that as a system operates over an extended period of time, participants within that system begin to recognize certain consequences of that system as being inherent to it. Marx's Theory (emphasize on the word theory) was that Capitalism was going to produce a particular set of consequences as the masses, in turn, would come to several general conclusions about the desirability of Capitalism itself. The consequences of these realizations, the ensuing conflict and paradigm shift, were what Marx called Socialism.

Marx's critics have often derided his work for the conspicuous absence of a concise definition of Socialist society and its instrumentations. But that lack of definition is crucial to Marxist thought when you consider all of the aforementioned. Marx didn't believe we walk down the path of Socialism because "History" commanded us to, because we all became adherents to Marxist thought, because it is the "only" option available to us, Rather he argued that we build a society in contrast to Capitalism and in an effort to succeed where it fails. By taking the same system, projecting its consequences, Marx made a guess as to the qualities of that future society.

The accuracy of Marx's conclusions are undeniable. If you look at the sum of Anti-Capitalist thought and the forms of Anti-Capitalism which have prospered by means of the extent to which they resonate with the common man, you find a great deal of consistent and overlapping themes that are perfectly in line with the characteristics of Socialism as outlined by Marx. Many of these anti-capitalist philosophies have been critical of Marx and Marxism, many have been designed to account for the perceived failings of Marxism and yet none of them departed from the crucial elements of Marxism. Is this because we have been forced by the Party to formulate all Anti-Capitalist thought in a manner that coincides with Marx or is it because that in the process of formulating any alternative to Capitalism one inevitability is going to the very kind of conclusions Marx is talking about? Whether we have a successful Anarchist revolution, a PareCon revolution, the success of any revolution that comes from the working class in the way Marx talks about is going to be a vindication of Marxist thought.

And from that I'd disagree the argument that "rejecting Capitalism doesn't mean Socialism will be better in terms of the environment". If Capitalism gets so bad that some sort of global awakening takes place, you can rest assured that environmental degradation will play a role in it. If we're going to overthrow Capitalism and not establish a system that is inherently better than it, what is the point of overthrowing it in the first place? I know I - along with the millions of other ecologically-minded people out there - will continue to push for a sustainable future during the revolution and through the democratic channels of a Socialist society.

discussion

Is the Person or Profit Central? 21.Jul.2010 06:37

marc

In Marx' understanding, persons are commodified and degraded under the fetishism of market, capital and money where the market or profit are made central. Reductionism and alienation occur when life is reduced to the market economy, CEOs are stylized "job creators" and workers degraded as "cost factors."

In the 50s, we had a guns-and-butter economy without limits. Pushing the workers and increasing productivity was the panacea. In the 80s with the neoliberal counter-revolution, Reagan reduced the top tax rate from 71% to 24% and gave capital all freedom in the "trickle down" mythology. In the current financial crisis, pyromaniacs are called fire-fighters and speculators "investors." Trust will be more distant than a star until the financial sector is shriveled, working hours are reduced and redistribution occurs from top to bottom.

As the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath, the economy should be a part of life, not a steamroller crushing creativity and self-determination.

Here is a link to an essay on Erich Fromm. The future will be brighter when we overcome our estrangement and send the architects of crisis back to the golf course!

 http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2010/07/400819.shtml

http://www.submedia.tv
http://www.socialistproject.ca

The ISO are $ocialists, not socialists 21.Jul.2010 23:55

B

I don't currently have the time to type the book that it takes to properly get into the subjects raised here, but let me point you to an excellent talk that addresses why socialism is necessary to save humanity and the planet.

 http://www.revolutionbooksnyc.org/Lotta060810.mp3

Video at -  http://www.megaupload.com/?d=GNFJC51X

Socialist Worker on A truly sustainable Society 22.Jul.2010 16:13

Meredith (ISO)

Socialist Worker has excerpts from the new Haymarket book "Ecology and Socialism" that fit well into this thread. I encourage people to check out the article and let us know what you think.

 http://socialistworker.org/2010/07/22/truly-sustainable-society

This still does not.. 22.Jul.2010 21:01

answer my question.

How to solve the growth problem. Some of you said that I was wrong and then went on to say that Socialism would be like sipping oil from a glass rather than gorging at an all you can eat buffet. Then still others tried to make yourselves sound very intelligent and used a lot of big words.

The bottom line is this oil and fossil fuels ot finite and will run out this is an undisputed fact which we have known for a long time. Today most of out energy is made using fossil fuels. So with demand rising "growth" and this would happen in a socialist country as much as a capitalist country which is why the Soviet Union fell. The Soviet Union could not provide for the basic demands of it's population furthermore the educated class demanded more materials and a higher standard of living. Not to mention what happened to tha Arial Sea which is one of the worst enviromental disasters in history.

I don't believe science will save us so I refuse to believe in any political idialiogy thst believes in growth as the answer to societies proplems, and thank you Steve I totally agree.

um 22.Jul.2010 22:02

(a)

The socialists seem to be forgetting or denying that BURNING OIL by itself is a global catastrophe. No leaking needed. A socialist economy could run a completely leak-proof, worker safe, even egalitarian etc., oil economy and the environment would still fall apart around us. Burning any fossil fuels IS JUST OUT OF THE QUESTION.
Hydroelectric dams will destroy all of the global salmon runs if global warming doesn't. Dammed up rivers also produce huge amounts of greenhouse gasses by creating big anaerobic decaying pits of organic matter. Sometimes more greenhouse gasses than coal burning power plants. Look it up.

But let's be clear here, producing and maintaining solar panels, or windmills, or thermal generators, or whatever is also needlessly polutive, wasteful and harmful.
Metal mining requires the destruction of huge tracts of land and poisons streams and rivers. It increasingly requires the use of large quantities of cyanide and other toxic chemicals. The production of plastic releases Dioxins (some of the most deadly compounds known), and then the plastics that we use continue to leak dioxins and other harmful chemicals into the general environment (wherever it is that they happen to be, in your home, outside, wherever).
Recycling is also a chemical and energy intensive industrial process that harms the environment and is wasteful to the degree that eventually, as a system, it will run out of raw materials to circulate.
Any way you cut it, fossil fuel and electric infrastructures are not sustainable. And by "not sustainable" I do not mean just mean "dirty and regrettable but still an option, if only a not so good one" that's not what "not sustainable" means! It doesn't mean "yucky, but workable." It means that IT PHYSICALLY CANNOT CONTINUE. A non-sustainable practice will stop itself from continuing either by completely depleting the resources it needs to continue OR by destroying the environment to the degree that human life cannot be sustained- whichever comes first.
Heck, even a steam industry is not sustainable... most of the U.S. was deforested during or even before the early industrial revolution alone. Early Middle Eastern, African and European civilizations that practiced intensive grain agriculture were not sustainable (while it would appear on the other hand that indigenous milpa -maize, squash, beans, etc.- farming is rather sustainable). Most of the lifestyles that we have come to think of as "civilized" are just not sustainable.

But don't sweat it. Biologically modern humans have been around for 200,000 years. Large-scale industrial energy infrastructures have been around for roughly 100 years. That's less than 0.1% of the time that humans have been around. Meaning that I'm sure we'll be able to figure out how to live just fine again without that utterly frivolous, completely unnecessary crap.
The ghosts of essentially all of your ancestors going back to the earliest humans would probably laugh in your face if you tried to tell them that "I can't imagine living without electricity! Certainly it can't be done!"

Re: This still does not... 23.Jul.2010 20:22

Thorn

Whoa whoa whoa. Slowdown there. The person asking this question - who I assume to be you - asked for clarification, from a Socialist standpoint, about industrialization. Not the use of Fossil Fuels. The consumption of natural resources is an inevitability but the consumption of Fossil Fuels is not. Throughout this discussion I have maintain the orthodox Marxist view (which is not sustained by Leninist organizations) that Socialism is not possible without Capitalism first reaching a particular level of development. It is from the Capitalist's mindless industrialization that the peoples of the world become members of the Proletariat and in turn the conditions for a Socialist revolution are eventually made possible.

In Marx's time the issue of environmentalism wasn't nearly as pronounced and so it wasn't really an element of his work. But considering the fact that Marx did believe Capitalism would produce a set of conditions so terrible that it would cause a global class movement, its rational to say he would have included environmental degradation in his theory had he been living today. consumerism, global warming denial, and general complacency towards our environment are deeply ingrained in the Capitalist system. It is these characteristics, necessary to sustain the demand for consumer goods that fuel growth of the Capitalist system, that will invariably prevent the ruling class from acting in a manner that prevents some sort of catastrophe down the road. When this catastrophe occurs, it WILL indisputably demonstrate that Capitalist development is at the heart of the declining integrity of our planetary ecosystem. When this catastrophe occurs, Capitalism will be unable to cope with the massive, destabilizing strain it places on Global Markets. When this catastrophe occurs, it will compact with all the other insidious tyrannies that exist to maintain the system and burden the working class - political, social, intellectual, economic, etc.

It figures that such a culmination of events would be the spark that lights the proverbial fuse - causing that global awakening that precedes the true Socialist revolution predicted in Marx's work. This environmental catastrophe will inevitability be a crucial element and focus of the democratic, non-hierarchial reorganization of our planet; as the masses will seek to establish a system which will not repeat the disaster that was so horrific that it helped cause a historically unequaled paradigm shift the world over.

Because we are unavoidably moving towards a totally industrialized world today, by the time such an event occurs its logical to assume that industrialization will be even more prevalent. On a planet with a human population of billions - all of whom who are trained to operate and dependent on industry - it would be impossible to immediately abandon industry without causing starvation that in unlike any of our most horrible nightmares. But because these industries will be operated to SUSTAIN humanity rather than to simply perpetuate growth for profit, immediate steps - such as the abolition of Fossil Fuels and the mass adoption of Alternative Energies - will be immediately possible. As the jump in awareness that is necessary to operate a democratic, non-hierarchal society spurs on infinitely greater and more socially-mindful education, as the prosperity inherent to operating industry for need affords the masses more time to develop other skills, the process of slowly reducing the need for industrial dependency will steadily alter our economies and in turn the size/composition of the human race as whole. Conversely the depletion of the Earth's resources - slowed but ever present - will never allow a global society of collectively-orientated people to simply ignore the state of the Earth - thus insuring energies will be consistently dedicated to mitigating humanity's impact on the Earth.

Although all of the aforementioned is quite complicated (and will be even more so in practice), the fact that such a future is possible and well within the operating confines of SOME socialist thought I hope I have successfully helped you understand how it is simply not realistic to put Socialism on the same level as Capitalism. And to reiterate my emphasis on the world "some" large elements of what I've outlined here are simply structurally impossible under some forms of Socialist thought - primarily Leninist ones. As you have correctly stated the Soviet Union unilaterally failed to distinguish itself much less the "greatness" of Capitalism despite its barbarity. Leninist thought retains one of the most crucial and powerful elements of the Capitalist system - the necessity of hierarchal power structures due to what the perceive as the incompetency of the masses. When you keep hierarchy, you keep an unequal distribution of power. When you keep an unequal distribution of power, you establish the basis of a class system and when you have a class system you have class interests which compel some to control and exploit the people. It is this basic principle that has rendered all attempts at Leninist Socialism miserable failures with unforgivable loses of life. The ruling class of the Soviet Union - the beloved "professional revolutionaries" and "People's Party" worshiped by the Leninists - never care about the people just like their Capitalist counterparts; only the perpetuation and defense of their power and wealth. When these inherently selfish elements are steering the ships of our nations, they cannot be convinced to avoid the icebergs of ecological devastation that threaten to hurt everyone but them.

Get a grip Thorn 23.Jul.2010 21:36

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