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For those who believe that the latest killing by the police was indeed justified

Let's try a little thought experiment...
So let's try this, imagine that last Monday somebody who was out enjoying the Hoyt Arboretum park called the police because a nicely dressed man was acting very strange and they were concerned for his safety.

Officer Jason Walters responds shortly thereafter.

What he finds is a 58 year old well dressed white man, in an expensive business suit and tie, nice shiny shoes, good haircut etc. However, he is covered in blood, it is fairly apparent that he has given himself several wounds with either a box-cutter or an exacto-knife, both of which have a "six inch handle" but only about a half-inch blade.

Having lost a fair amount of blood and considering that he is deep in a suicidal depression, he doesn't verbally respond to officer Walters' questioning.

The 58 year old is obviously a professional of some type. He's the kind of guy you might recognize if you're used to hanging out at the local yacht club or glitzy city galas. Who knows why he's suicidal? That's not really the most important thing right now.
What is obvious is that if his life is going to be saved he is going to need help. He stumbles out of the bathroom, which happens to mean that he is moving closer in proximity to the police officer. Again, being in a suicidal daze and having lost a fair amount of blood, he fails to react very quickly when the officer asks him to put down the "weapon."

From here you can decide what happens next. Do you really think that this lone police officer would make the snap decision to shoot dead a wealthy businessman less than three minutes after responding to this call, someone who could have serious connections in this city? That could be career suicide if his prominent family decided to sue the Portland police for having shot him dead instead of trying - and I mean ACTUALLY trying to help him.

And what if Walters had indeed for whatever reason shot him dead in a sub three-minute interaction. How do you think the city would respond?

HEADLINE: "Upstanding citizen of our fair city shot down in his time of need!" There would be outrage from all corners of the city.

Instead, it was Jack Dale Collins who was found bloody with self inflicted wounds. He looked houseless and impoverished. Therefore, there was obviously something "wrong" with him. His life was much less worthy of consideration than a "normal" person. He was found guilty of being an "undesirable" and punished accordingly. He was dealt with perhaps more swiftly, but just as severely as James Chasse Jr was. The cycle continues.

Just another day at work 25.Mar.2010 15:38

Victory!

For those who work with disabled, addicted, or homeless people, clients cutting themselves & threatening others is just another day at work. No one is shot, tazered, beaten, etc. Staff are not even armed with anything other than deescalation tactics & quick wit. Why did this pig shoot this man on Monday?

please, 25.Mar.2010 18:25

?

stop the speciesism with the term "pig." How many times must it be said?

Speciesism is no more defensible than racism, sexism, or any other oppression.

You people are ridiculous. 27.Mar.2010 18:33

Sir Sacrifyx, Knights of Fire, Second Order

The officer was DOING HIS JOB! The same job YOUR tax dollars pay him to do! The man came out of a bathroom, with a WEAPON! A knife of any kind is a WEAPON! He was covered in BLOOD! His or another? Psychopathic murdered or just a little touched in the head? The officer had no way of knowing because after telling the man to drop the weapon, he refused and advanced on the officer. He was given multiple orders to drop the weapon and refused before the officer pulled the trigger and cleaned one more piece of trash off of the streets of this beautiful city. He made the split second decision he was trained to, THE SAME split second decision ANY of you would make in the same situation, and I wager gave this insane hobo more opportunity to end the confrontation on peaceful terms than any of us would have in his shoes, to save his own life and possibly the lives of others by gunning this menace down. You take offense only because the man wears a badge and you're looking for an axe to grind against "the man." It's that simple.


Well, offi-"sir" 28.Mar.2010 00:14

social worker

"The officer was DOING HIS JOB!"

No shit, officer dumb fuck. That's the FUCKING POINT. We don't like the job you do, and we're done with you. Take your little gun, and your little badge, and your teeeeeny weeeeeny little weenie and go home.

"A knife of any kind is a WEAPON!"

Yeh. Just like a plastic squirt gun is a weapon, like a black man at a traffic stop is a weapon, like a handful of car keys is a weapon, like a bad attitude is a weapon.... Yeh. By that line of reasoning, I suppose a half inch exacto knife is a "weapon." Even so... don't you think there may have been some other way to deal with this than shoot this poor, bloody, suicidal man? No? Well, see, that's how we know you're a cop. (Probably the very cop who shot this guy.)

"He was covered in BLOOD!"

Mmmm. Yeh. And we know how frightened you guys are of blood. Scary. ooo. Thank God you didn't go into medicine.

"...and cleaned one more piece of trash off of the streets of this beautiful city."

See, and this is what we see as a huge problem. You shit headed thugs think like this. "One more piece of trash." This was a human being. And you had no right to take his life. You have no right to take his life and expect no accountability for that. No. Why is it that you always think you can convince us that the lives you take don't matter? What the fuck is wrong with you? Are you just brain dead? Are those badges made of mercury that gets into your veins or something?

"THE SAME split second decision ANY of you would make in the same situation...."

No. See, this is where you are dead, dead, dead, fucking wrong. Any one of us would have helped that man. Not one of us would have just assumed he was a "piece of trash," a "menace," an "insane hobo." As you have done. As you, a man who never even met him, except perhaps, to shoot him to death. None of us would have done that. We would have seen him for the human being he was. A human being in crisis, and crying for help. We still have compassion and souls. We still recognize that people like him are members of our community, the same as any one of us, and we still have the capacity to care. Unlike you, we do not see ourselves as omnipotent little Gods who can strut around and mete out death without accountability.

In my line of work, I see people in crisis every single day. Some of those people are agitated, some of them are (gasp!) bloody, some of them are violent. And I have never, ever, NEVER, once, shot any of them. Never.

So no. No, officer. No, we would not have done the same thing. And you shouldn't have either.

Shame on you. Just, fucking, shame on you.

Try to survive in a world without police, asshole 28.Mar.2010 05:44

Sir Sacrifyx, Knights of Fire, Second Order

No shit, officer dumb fuck. That's the FUCKING POINT. We don't like the job you do, and we're done with you. Take your little gun, and your little badge, and your teeeeeny weeeeeny little weenie and go home.

Try and survive in a world without police. Go ahead. You're obviously incapable of making rational decisions with mere seconds to do it like this officer did, I'd give you one week until you're worm food.


Yeh. Just like a plastic squirt gun is a weapon, like a black man at a traffic stop is a weapon, like a handful of car keys is a weapon, like a bad attitude is a weapon.... Yeh. By that line of reasoning, I suppose a half inch exacto knife is a "weapon." Even so... don't you think there may have been some other way to deal with this than shoot this poor, bloody, suicidal man? No? Well, see, that's how we know you're a cop. (Probably the very cop who shot this guy.)

Yes, a half inch exacto knife is a weapon. Report said the knife was 6 INCHES LONG! That would represent a threat to ANYONE. You bring up squirt guns, black men, car keys and attitudes, none of which have any relevance here. Please stick to the topic on hand, a deranged man with a 6 inch blade in his hand. If he was unarmed and refused to stop, sure, a taser to the balls would have been sufficient. The man was armed and covered in blood and refusing to obey police orders. He posed an imminent threat. Since you're bringing other shit into the equation, let's try this. This same man, covered in blood and wielding a knife walks through your front door. Your pistol is in your hand and you order the man to stop, which he refuses. Do you sit and try to negotiate as this man backs you into a corner from which there won't be an escape? Or do you do what you've been trained to do in a situation where your life is in jeopardy?

"He was covered in BLOOD!"

It has nothing to do with a fear of blood, asswipe. It has everything to do with the possibility that this man left a victim in the bathroom he just walked out of.

See, and this is what we see as a huge problem. You shit headed thugs think like this. "One more piece of trash." This was a human being. And you had no right to take his life. You have no right to take his life and expect no accountability for that. No. Why is it that you always think you can convince us that the lives you take don't matter? What the fuck is wrong with you? Are you just brain dead? Are those badges made of mercury that gets into your veins or something?

No, he was a worthless piece of shit who made his living begging others to sustain him while the only time he lifted a finger of his own is if it was holding a bottle of liquor.


No. See, this is where you are dead, dead, dead, fucking wrong. Any one of us would have helped that man. Not one of us would have just assumed he was a "piece of trash," a "menace," an "insane hobo." As you have done. As you, a man who never even met him, except perhaps, to shoot him to death. None of us would have done that. We would have seen him for the human being he was. A human being in crisis, and crying for help. We still have compassion and souls. We still recognize that people like him are members of our community, the same as any one of us, and we still have the capacity to care. Unlike you, we do not see ourselves as omnipotent little Gods who can strut around and mete out death without accountability.

In my line of work, I see people in crisis every single day. Some of those people are agitated, some of them are (gasp!) bloody, some of them are violent. And I have never, ever, NEVER, once, shot any of them. Never.

So no. No, officer. No, we would not have done the same thing. And you shouldn't have either.

Shame on you. Just, fucking, shame on you.

You are full of shit. SOOOOO fucking full of fucking shit it's unbelievable how deluded you sound. This guy posed a threat. All things aside, that alone caused his death. And now a group of crazies gathered up to have themselves a regular old lynchin? Have you put any thought into the innocent people who will inevitably be hurt in your crusade? Any thought to how futile all this is anyhow? None. All we're concerned with is grinding our axe against the man, everyone and everything else be damned. You're all a bunch of selfish pricks, jumping on the first goddamned bandwagon that comes along that you THINK gives you reason enough to take a "stand." You'll all learn the hard way, I guess.


the person 28.Mar.2010 13:50

tawopp

but even an 'attituide'' by a black or whatever, is considered a ''weapon''. police go into military operation mode if you merely question why you were stopped, no ,no crime was reported, you just got stopped and asked irrelevant questions such as , ''what were you going to buy at trhe grocery store you said you were going to''. THAT is why you will be taken off the planet.

Angry, angry officer crazy 28.Mar.2010 19:16

astounded

Wow. This police officer is super crazy angry and defensive. Throwing a nasty little tantrum here. I thought maybe some of the claims about the crazy police on a hair trigger were exaggerated, but I can just see this guy with a gun in his hand. Who hires these creeps?

I think we would do much, much better without them. I have no idea how he imagines the world will end without a police force. Can he be that unenlightened? Can he be that ignorant of history, of sociology, of diverse cultures other than his own power-crazed and violent police culture? No, we don't need people like that running around with guns at their hip to make us ..."safe."

Thanks anyway, officer. You're irrelevant.

Did I just read that right? 28.Mar.2010 19:18

Regarding the cop post

"You'll all learn the hard way, I guess."

Is that a threat, officer?

I don't think you realize who you're actually talking to here. Perhaps you need to stop running off at the mouth and go home and nurse that big, puss-weeping chip on your narrow shoulder.

officer sac-a tried to revise history 28.Mar.2010 19:21

like they always do after they kill

No, actually the blade was half an inch long. Period. Ask me how I know.

So that makes you kind of a dumb shit, officer. I guaran-goddamn-tee it. ;-)

think twice... 28.Mar.2010 23:22

Joey Edwards

SERIOUSLY!?!?


First off, the officer would have probably shot the "well dressed" guy the same way.... the officer told the man to stop, the man did not respond. He continued to address the man, and still got no response... IN THE MEAN TIME, THE CRAZY GUY WAS ADVANCING WITH A WEAPON.... The officer was justified. This whole argument about "what if the man wasn't homeless" is just stupid, the officer's life was in danger, and he was too close to use another option of force. Police have to meet or exceed a suspects level of force to ensure their safety. The suspect, crazy or not, determines the level of force police use.


And just for the record... For the "Just another day at work comment"-- I bet you would react a little differently to some crazy at work if they were loose and approaching you angrily with a knife.

You'll think differently when someone breaks into your house. Who will you call-- the police?

And one more thing... 29.Mar.2010 03:42

Sir Sacrifyx, Knights of Fire, Second Order

So I'm a cop, says you? Is that the way you look at anyone who isn't with you? The old "If you're not with me, you're against me" deal. By that token, I'm sure you'll find out come later today that there are more of "us" than there are of "you." And by us, no I don't mean cops (I'm really not on, just a concerned citizen), I simply mean people who don't see what was done as wrong, or at least not was wrong as you see it. GET A GRIP! Your paranoia is unbecoming.


caring for our mentally ill people 29.Mar.2010 21:21

jean

It seems to me that the whole way we are treating mentally ill folks is brutal and lacking compassion. When folks like this act out, such as in this case, tragedy often results. Something similar might have been at work in any number of other incidents like this in recent years, maybe including the Kaady case. I don't think that we can lay the entire blame for all this brutality at the feet of police, though.

Consider, for example, that Mr. Collins was not inside of a halfway house, say, or shelter for troubled youth, being taken care of by trained caregivers, who would have used "de-escalation" instead of lethal weapons, as you pointed out, Victory. Instead, he was out in public, reportedly threatening passers-by with his weapon. Police are liable to react, or overreact, with deadly force under these circumstances, and the public is liable to accept that kind of use of force because they are afraid of people like Mr. Collins. The solution, beyond just retraining or disciplining police, probably requires the public and the society "retraining" itself as a whole to do more for people in trouble.

Although I don't want to see police ever kill anybody, I have a hard time seeing how we can change this situation by simply identifying and isolating the problem as a "police brutality" issue.

Fact of the matter is, mentally ill people are a PAIN in A** to deal with. (I know firsthand, cause I've had mentally ill relatives!) And we have plenty of people with mental health problems in this city, in this country. And a decent society does not throw people away, even if they are a pain to deal with. It doesn't turn them into a "policing" issue. It reaches out, and insures that all people can get the help they need in order to be able to live a dignified life.

Oh yeh, right. 29.Mar.2010 21:24

riiight.

You're not a cop, and a rich white guy in a business suit would have been shot over a half inch hobby knife too.

Yeh, I believe both of those things. Thanks for setting be straight, there, officer.