ECONVERGENCE Will Go Nowhere Without a Razor Sharp Focus Upon GASVEEs to EVs.

it's a commonly held belief that Electric vehicles will save us all. Unfortunately, the reality, is that it will be trading one huge problem, for another, slightly smaller one.

The technology required to create energy-dense battery systems requires rare-earth metals. The only abundant supplies of these, are in China presently.

 link to www.spectrum.ieee.org

It's also worth noting, that Lithium polymer, lithium ion battery systems have a limited lifespan, and are not completely recyclable. They are very expensive, and contrary from what we've all been told, increasing manufacturing will not bring the price down. Especially as supplies of Lithium, cobalt, and other materials dwindle. These battery packs are also heavy, and much of the energy is wasted, just hauling the battery around.

Something else to keep in mind, is that battery configurations can force you to repeatedly "upgrade" to a new vehicle. How many dead EV Warrior bicycles are there, because the batteries cost as much as the bike did.

I hate to break it to you. There will be no battery vehicle revolution. There will be no hydrogen vehicle revolution either. Hanging onto these hopes, only prevents us from addressing the root cause of these issues. Frankly put, cheap petroleum, for the last 70 years, has created a far bigger problem. That problem is SPRAWL.

We were made a promise, by big oil, in the 1950's, that continued all the way to the present. That promise was, that we could live anywhere, and still get to work anywhere. We could live in the country, and work in the city. This was a false promise, of an unsustainable future. We sacrificed our farms and wilderness, to follow blindly the dream of "Happy Motoring". Now that we are all waking up, it's becoming a nightmare. The automobile has dehumanized us. It's isolated us from social interaction, and helped bring about an obesity epidemic that shows no sign of slowing. The concept of suburbia has created 100,000 places, that are quite frankly, not worth caring about. The electric car, only perpetuates this.

If you really have an interest in making a solution, how about these ideas?

Electric rail (no batteries, never carries it's own power) 80% higher efficiency of rails vs tires
Pedestrian-friendly places (what a concept!)
Bicycle infrastructure, that is more than skin-deep.
Harden city borders. This is not a new concept. Until the creation of the automobile, there was the city, and there was the countryside.

These are the solution to transportation in the near future. If we rise to meet the challenge, Our children will appreciate us waking up, and turning around.

Exile you seem more concerned with posting anti-EV replies then understanding the messenger's message. Your replies have consistently suggested a misunderstanding on your part. Be that as it may. But its important that you not contribute to the blocking of progressive change.

The reality is that there are nearly 130 million housing units in the U.S. The point is that our existing settlements on the land are fixed--literally
set in concrete. People are going to need to keep moving around a lot for the foreseeable future. You can talk all you want about sprawl. But the
reality is that it is here to stay. People are going to need to keep moving around. And doing things like augmenting human power with electric drive
will contribute to dramatically increasing the energy efficiency of the transportation sector as well as weaning it off of fossil fuels. We need to
cross the bicycle-car divide with a mix of energy efficient 4-season vehicles. Bikes alone won't solve the problems. Bikes are great. But by themselves
they won't do it.

"it's a commonly held belief that Electric vehicles will save us all. Unfortunately, the reality, is that it will be trading one huge problem,
for another,slightly smaller one."
No, we will be making progress towards building a better world. But it needs to be done right.

"The technology required to create energy-dense battery systems requires rare-earth metals. The only abundant supplies of these, are in China presently."
Arguments like these surface all the time and have been addressed before. In short this is not a reason to turn away from EVs.

"It's also worth noting, that Lithium polymer, lithium ion battery systems have a limited lifespan, and are not completely recyclable."
Lifespan will continue to improve. They are 90-something percent recyclable. They do not need to be 100.0% recyclable.

"They are very expensive, and contrary from what we've all been told, increasing manufacturing will not bring the price down."
You have been posting this for a while now and have already been proven wrong. Prices for EV suitable large format Li batteries have plummeted
in recent years.

"We were made a promise, by big oil, in the 1950's, that continued all the way to the present. That promise was, that we could live anywhere, and
still get to work anywhere. We could live in the country, and work in the city. This was a false promise, of an unsustainable future.
We sacrificed our farms and wilderness, to follow blindly the dream of "Happy Motoring". Now that we are all waking up, it's becoming a nightmare.
The automobile has dehumanized us. It's isolated us from social interaction, and helped bring about an obesity epidemic that shows no sign of slowing.
The concept of suburbia has created 100,000 places, that are quite frankly, not worth caring about. The electric car, only perpetuates this."

Who said anything about electric cars? Why do you write the rest of it as if EV Revolutionary doesn't hold the same view?

"If you really have an interest in making a solution, how about these ideas?
Electric rail (no batteries, never carries it's own power) 80% higher efficiency of rails vs tires
Pedestrian-friendly places (what a concept!)
Bicycle infrastructure, that is more than skin-deep.
Harden city borders. This is not a new concept. Until the creation of the automobile, there was the city, and there was the countryside."

One wonders, why does Exile keep posting statements like these as if the guy he is replying to, hasn't already been enthusiastic about these things for years and years????? Yes electric rail is good. But....where were you when the powers that be were planning the commuter rail line to Wilsonville??? Here it is 2009, and it ends up being diesel powered. Why didn't you make sure it wound up being electric?????

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Feral Kimchi link


"Electric vehicles may be carbon neutral in operation but the environmental costs of producing them in factories as well as mining
for the metals etc. are usually never addressed. Also, what about the roads being built that the cars will need to drive on?
I think to seriously address the environmental problems we face we need a paradigm shift, not just bandaids."

EV <> Electric Car.
THe point is to augment human power with electric drive and to cross the bicycle-car divide with a mix of vehicles that dramatically
increase energy efficiency and reduce our dependency on fossil fuels.
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waltinseattle link

"being a startup humanhybrid vehicle mfg, I have seen all the issues you bring up in my own researches. the current crop of E.V.s is a
playground of high power toys for the green elite. They are 50K$ and up, several hundred H.P eqivanents, low slung,
hyper fast and agressive psychological crutches. Some are, as the N.E.V., still within the old paradigm.
Same issues in bicycles. $5000 for a one person ego to7y in graphite and titanium, while in west africa they take people to hospitals in wheelbarrows
and only a Vancouver B.C. collective is puting a human powered alternative advancement on the ground.
Where would Your heart find the real heros of this transportation revolution?"

The real heroes are in the grassroots. Mostly they are not these Green Elites. At the same time though, it is better that these green elites plow "their" $109,000 into A Tesla Roadster EV then another high end GASVEE sports car.

The problems with our society are systemic. Like the gap between rich and poor that you mention. Focusing on EVs though brings it all to a head. All
the material is right there. The mainstream can corrupt the Revolution and usually does. Thats why its important that it be done right. Right now there is nothing to stop an automaker from building Hummer EVs.

You hadn't mention human-hybrid systems at all. You were referring to electric vehicles. Attempting to place electric vehicles in the same mold as an hydrocarbon vehicle simply does not work. We will never be gliding down highways on batteries. It's just not going to happen. perhaps a few of the über-wealthy, in their tesla roadsters?

The entire transportation system is fundamentally flawed. Moving around 5 seats, with one person in it, just doesn't work in the long term. Living in far flung suburban developments, without some reliable method of efficient transport also doesn't work for the long term.

A key way of viewing this discussion, is the belief of the concept of "The threshold of perceived value". This is an important indicator of how society functions. Shortly after Hurricane Katrina, fuel prices skyrocketed up to as high as 4.50 a gallon. This exceeded the threshold of perceived value, and people began to change their behavior. Bicycle ridership increased, and sales of SUV's plummeted. This in turn also caused the value of suburban developments to plummet as well. Those high fuel prices were caused not by shortages, but by speculation, and greed. In the future, it will be because of shortages, and increased cost of new oil development. After that time, the suburban dream will become the ultimate nightmare. Large suburban estates will become multi-family housing for the poor, or bulldozed, to make room for local agriculture. Cities that fail to plan ahead, will suffer from food shortages, and stagnation. From this, the Transition towns movement has arisen. Learn to live without cars, while we still have the choice. Stop making excuses, like electric cars, hydrogen cars, ethanol, biodiesel, etc. I can only see electric assist being necessary for those that really require it (medical, elderly, product delivery).

I just re-read what I just posted. Note: never write passionate comments to articles, while repeatedly distracted by phone calls.