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To the Counter-Protesters at today's Die-In

Today's die-in, while smaller than organizers had hoped, was attended by many and was quite successful. Many people wandering through the square stopped to watch and even joined in, and corporate media filmed and interviewed people. However, there was a counter-protest at the end that I wanted to address here.
After the die-in, after about half the crowd had dispersed and the remaining people were milling about, making new friends and connecting with old ones, about 8 people showed up with a large sign proclaiming, "Fuck the troops". They immediatly recruited people from the crowd to hold the sign, and several in their group choose not to stand with the sign when it was moved around the square and instead stood in a central spot, watching it.

As you can imagine, they were not greeted with warm and welcoming arms by the die-in participants. People shouted at them, people stood in front of their sign, people argued with them, called them bastards and told them they had no balls. At one point it looked like it might turn physical, but due to the young counter-protesters refusal to engage with the drunken man, things remained at the word level and did not escalate. For that, I give cudos to those who came in support of the sign.

But I have some questions for you counter-protesters.

What did you think you were going to accomplish?
You came to an event that was made up of people wishing to recognize the 3,000+ soldier deaths and 600,000+ Iraqi deaths, and spread your vulgar message of anti-troop. I heard several of you say repeatedly, "what about the Iraqi deaths?" Well, we didn't amass 3,000 people for the die in and I don't think aiming for 600,000 would have been a reasonable goal. If you had been paying attention, you would have seen that both the indymedia postings and the large sign held at the protest listed those 600,000 Iraqi's right next to the 3,000. Besides, we've all learned that two wrongs don't make a right- if an organization were to choose to ignore the Iraqi deaths, that isn't cause to turn against the troops- the issues are seperate.

Did you think that there may be families of fallen soldiers at this event? How do you think your message is taken in by them? It's all well and good to label yourselves as anarachists and radicals and activists, but I think all those types of people can also be called people who care- about the world, about the system, and about other people (you did show that you care about the 600,000 Iraqis). So, where was your caring for the families of the fallen troops who had to look upon your sign today? I heard you expressing the choice they make to join the military, but even if that's true, even if the troops deserve to be fucked by us now because they made this choice, why do their families deserve it? Their families didn't make that choice and many may have opposed it, but they are the ones who were forced to endure your sign.

Do you support Lt Ehren Watada? www.thankyoult.org. He is a commissioned officer of the US Army who refused deployment to Iraq. Will you be at Ft Lewis on Feb 5 with us to stand behind him as he is court-martialed? By your theory he should be your hero. Yes, he made what was in your eyes the mistake of joining in the first place, but when they tried to make him go overseas and become a murderer, as you kept saying today, he refused to go and now faces 7 years in jail.

Do you support anti-recruitment efforts?
Do you know that a huge, huge reason people join the military is because they want to go to college? I don't know what any of your backgrounds are (and unlike the drunken man yelling at you today, I won't make assumptions), but anyone who grows up poor grows up with the knowledge that college is probably out of reach. And then, lo and behold, they hit high school and an army recruiter explains to them that if they serve 4 years, they get to go to school on the GI bill. And these lower-class youngsters without much other hope think, 'it's only four years, and it'll get me through college!' And the next thing you know, bush lesser has stolen an election, our country has been attacked and these kids who were fooled into joined during peacetime are sent into Iraq.
And if you're not supporting Lt Watada, don't tell me these kids should stand up and say No, we won't go- where are their resources? Who will help them if they refuse? Again, they are faced with a bad situation and not many viable options. If they see people like Lt Watada refusing to deploy and being supported (money toward his defense team, actions at his base and around the country, etc), then they may be brave enough to trust that we, the anti-system, will take care of them if they refuse, and that may give them the strength to do so.
Do you go around to high schools and inform kids that low-interest loans and grants are avalible to low-income students for college? Do you tell today's youth about Peace Corp, Job Corp, and other options they have to get into an organization that will feed, clothe, house and train them, and does NOT involve murder?

Do you work to change the system? Do you really believe that the individual should be blamed for living in and following the only system they know? Perhaps a sign, "Fuck the system" would have been better suited. We didn't go to war because we had X number of troops. We went to war because the people who run the system are corrupt and are running a corrupt system. Instead of working to degrade the thousands upon thousands of troops we have, maybe efforts should be aimed at overhauling the system and the few hundred people who got us into this mess.
Do you think any troops or potential troops who saw or heard about your sign will think, "gee, what I'm doing is really dumb, I think I'll refuse to deploy"? Or do you think they just see a bunch of loud-mouthed young rabble-rousers trying to get a rise out of a peaceful protest?

What do you think the corporate media and the public made of your sign?
Don't you think a sign reading, "Fuck the troops" just confirms the myth that protesters are off their rockers, that every activist just hates whatever is avaliable for them to hate, that protest is meaningless by way of being over-aggressive? The general public is NOT going to be converted to action by a sign reading fuck the troops. They may, however, have their eyes opened by a sign reading, "Over 3,000 soldiers and 600,000 Iraqi's dead." If your goal is something like success of the movement, ending the war, impeaching bush lesser, you should realize that the 8 of you WILL NOT GET THERE ALONE. You MUST enlist the support of not only the activist community (many of whom I believe you offened and ostracized today) but also the public, the people who haven't put a thought to this situation yet. And your slogan today was not a way to bring people in.

In short, WHAT DO YOU DO, besides showing up at a supportive event with a vulgar message of anger on your sign?

If you want to have an anti-troop protest, go right ahead. If you advertise it as such, I will not bash you for it and I will stand against any other radicals/activists who try to deny you your right to do so. I hope that action will include positive messages of action and not just statements of hate or anger. Remember that education is one of the most important anti-recruitment methods- inform people of what their other options are.
But, do it apart from a setting where friends and families of fallen and current soldiers are gathered to show respect and support. There is a time and a place for everything, and you people missed it today.

I can sympathize with your concerns 07.Jan.2007 02:10

thinking it through

But this is a difficult issue, one in which people have very vehemently disagreed on in the recent past. And I myself have trouble with it, having family in the military, though none in Iraq or Afghanistan, and also knowing some true psychos in the military serving in Iraq. Participation in the occupation of Iraq is a war crime. Is the message that people want to send really that they support those guilty of war crimes? It may be better to state that participation in the occupation is a war crime, and a violation of the oath to uphold the constitution (which gives sole power to declare war to congress), but that all soldiers should not be prosecuted upon their return but rather the initiators of this aggressive war and those soldiers guilty of specific war crimes such as murdering civilians or torturing prisoners.

>> We didn't go to war because we had X number of troops

I'm not sure that is accurate. First, "we" didn't go to war (neither you nor I nor most people reading this have "gone to war"). The Bush administration ordered the invasion and occupation because they had plenty of troops that would follow orders despite their illegality. Without those troops there would be no war. How did the US occupation of Vietnam end, the occupying soldiers by and large stopped fighting it. I suspect that may be the way the US occupation of Iraq ends.

And the US soldiers (not to mention private contractors and war profiteers) do need to be told that what they are doing is wrong. Remember that 2 defenses used by the defendants at Nuremberg were 1) they were just following orders; 2) they didn't know what they were doing was wrong.

So yes, let's look at the common ground, supporting those troops who refuse to fight, either by taking public stands or by going AWOL and escaping the US. And counter-recruitment efforts could definitely be enhanced and improved in Portland.

And remember, no one speaks for you but you. Don't be afraid of how the media or anyone else will portray you based on the statements of others. I also wouldn't be so quick to presume what message people want to hear. There are plenty of people who are anti-occupation who do not support the soldiers carrying out this occupation any more than they would have supported the German, Italian, and Japanese soldiers during WW2. That doesn't mean that those soldiers should be all summarily tried, imprisoned, or executed. But it does mean that perhaps their actions in participating in an aggressive war and occupation shouldn't be supported.

(A) clever response 07.Jan.2007 02:55

from (A) sleep-deprived kid

I was there at the protest today and was with the group holding the afforementioned banner. I find it much more stimulating to hear your points written down, rather than thrown at me loudly behind a pointed finger.

We often hear protest report-backs called successes, but we're always inclined to ask, 'by what measure?'. What was accomplished by this protest? A negligible amount of media-attention? Meanwhile your precious troops massacre innocent Iraqis, with a wanton disregard for life comporable to the genocide against the natives. It has been shown time and time again that media attention is far from a means to the end of stopping war. Even when millions marched in the streets, they were hardly afforded a word by the corporate media.

As to the facts about how the event occurred... there was no recruitment process, we merely had friends in the crowd. Those who didn't stand next to the banner were not conciously dissociating from the banner, but merely not fast enough as it was chased by angry liberals.

For a movement claiming to be appalled at Bush's attacks on free speech, censorship and specifically violent repression seemed to be high on the agenda of today's protesters. Just as Republicans want to tell you that you should stop saying bad things about the president, so too do you speak absurdly statist ultra-right censorship-rhetoric when a view you find threatening is spoken.

As for your questions.

What did we seek to accomplish?

First I would ask the same question? While our banner will live on in at least a few people's memory, today's "die-in" will be filed in the archives of meaningless iconographic protests, of which there have been countless. We live in Portland, where 90+% of people are opposed to Bush and his policies, so realistically, these protests serve to do little more than affirm what people already believe. Our banner, on the other hand, opened up an idea new to many people. The banner stood for the contraction of trying to support Iraqis, and their killers. Our banner stood in defiance of marking every 500 US soldiers dead, but hardly meriting a blurb for each 100,000 dead Iraqis. Personally, and I must reiterate, that I cannot speak for all afilliated with the banner, I was out there to send a message to people that have thought these thoughts, and didnt't shut down their brain, that they are not alone.

Second, about the families of the soldiers...

I knew today that there would be a family member of a dead service-men in the crowd. How, you may ask. Because I came. You've probablly never considered it, but I have a family member who died in Iraq... my cousin. I don't think we need to adopt this sheilding-mentality for the family of fallen killers. They/I can be exposed to a variety of ideas, and should still have the wits about them to form their own conclusions. It was not my express intent to pick at the wounds of these people's loss, but then again, tokenizing this death-toll, be it the Americans or Iraqis toward your political ends seems disingenuious. If I saw people outside of my home saying "Stop the war - Support (my cousin's name)" I'd tell them to get the fuck out of there, because they don't give a flying fuck about my cousin. He was pro-war until the day he died, but I don't think the Iraqis he killed were all pro-invasion.

I'll be brief on the case of Lt Ehren Watada because it seems like a straw-man-argument. I support him turning around and backing out of his "duties". A soldier who ceases to fight and kill in war, ceases to be a soldier. I am far from beyond mistakes, but I try to do my best to see the mistakes I make and undo the harm I've done in whatever ways possible, and I can't ask for any more than that. But how motherfucking obvious does it have to get that the Iraq war is a mistake? What kind of maniac needs a court to tell him that genocide is wrong? Nuremburg established, and common sense maintains, that following orders is not a legitimate excuse for atrocities. But he backed out and I commend him for that.

As for blaming us for people not shirking on their murdorous calling, that doesn't make sense logically. People point out how outraged everyone was that in the 60's, during Vietnam, anti-war activists specifically attacked (mostly verbally) individual soldiers, yet during the Vietnam war a significant amount of American troops went AWOL, and people went to jail for refusing the draft. That's pretty cool of them considering all we're asking for today is people to not voluntarily kill for oil.

Another quick one: Anti-recruitment: Yes, I've been involved with anti-recruitment efforts since I started high-school (some 7 or so years ago)... and on my college campus. I don't know why our banner would have you believe otherwise. I don't think those smug smarmy bastard recruiters deserve to live, let alone roam our campuses unwatched. And plenty of poor kids (like me) find a way to get by without getting contracted-killer jobs on the side. Again, it feels really patronising for you to attempt to make excuses for attrocities. "Oh poor people, you know how they don't think about these things". But that's bullshit. We need to change ther terms and send a clear message that killing for oil is unacceptable.

And the war did start because we had X number of troops. The equation for X is X>0. Without the troops there is no war. Without the war, there is no troops. We need to drop this "support the troops, end the war" bullshit, because we all know without the war there are no troops to support... only people. And people are awesome, my best friends are people. My lover is a person.

Fuck the system is a cliche, and is way too vague. There are a lot of liberal fair-weather friends who are against the "bush system" and have joined the anti-war movement in the last 5 years, but I don't see most of those "friends" as legitimate. If you voted for John Kerry, a pro-war Democrat, then you're not anti-war. Especially if you campaigned for him... you just want your guy in office. A lot of this 'incensed by the notion of war' jazz has seemed disingenous from the start when coming from dems, plain and simple. If what you want is an end of war, then you're naturally going to be lead to be an anti-capitalist anarchist, because the state always wages war on the poor in the name of capital. If what you actually want is a Democrat president, then stop with the peace rhetoric, because it's disengenous. If that's what you want, then vote for one, it's the best way to get a rich white person into office... protests just aren't doing it.

What do I do?

Plenty. I'm a vegan anarchist and I'm fighting against heirarchy almost every day of my life. Not a day goes by that anarchism and the end of rule by the elite fails to touch my thoughts or my actions. I'm cooking for food not bombs, I'm attending the Schumacher protests, I'm speaking to family and friends about recruitment, and I'm posting wingnutty bullshit on indymedia at 2 in the damn morning.

I'm not planning any anti-troop rally at the moment. Partially because we'll get arrested if any jock soldier happens upon us and we try to defend ourself against him in any way. Partially because preaching to the choir got old some time ago.

Sorry to rant.

perhaps you are right 07.Jan.2007 03:05

but the poster said

something entirely different. It did not give a reasoned or reasonable message, it used inflammatory and profane language in a manner nearly guaranteed to piss folks off. That is no way to get a message out.

that may be your opinion 07.Jan.2007 03:31

.

But sometimes, for some people, they need to be pissed off in order to get them to think about an issue. It's unfortunate but true. It's not my choice of tactic but one I've seen wielded effectively numerous times. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it doesn't work.

Necessary 07.Jan.2007 09:22

Den Mark, Vancouver

As the banner was initially let down over the west wall of the Square, i was leaving with my Earth & Justice flags. My first reaction to the banner was simply that it was not pleasant but was necessary, & i nodded my affirmation to the counters. It's too easy to get cawt up in sentiment in matters of war, but truth frees us from sticky paralyzing ooze of sentiment. Truth sometimes hurts, but is always necessary. I don't want soldiers to die, but they are not mere "victims". Rather, they are pawns & should refuse to be. It can be done. It IS done. None of us needs to be a "victim" or a pawn. We don't have to vote republicrat; we don't have to watch corporate news; we don't have to shop at wal-mart; we don't have to pay taxes. We do these things as if we HAVE to, but we don't. Not really. So "the system" juggernauts along, because most of us go along with it & become part of it, & are just as guilty as those who control it. Yet, every sneering punk like bush is just a punk after all & can strut around only because we let him. I thank the organizers of the die-in, & i thank those who brawt that banner, who, by the way, did not display it till the die-in was over. Onward!

good cop / bad cop 07.Jan.2007 10:28

margaret

believe it or not, anger can sometimes solve problems. Once, on the greyhound in 2002, I met a bright-eyed, excitable soldier. What did he think of the war that was about to start in Iraq, I asked, and he said "Oh, I'm not sure. I don't want to come back and have people call me a baby killer."

And you know what? He -should- be afraid of being called a baby-killer, because he should be afraid of -being- one.

Why haven't we, as radicals/anti-war/etc, come to understand the concept of good cop/bad cop yet? Try it at a protest line - Everyone is screaming 'fuck the pigs, fuck the pigs' and then suddenly mr/ms liberal is at the front talking politely to the cops, trying to convince them that what they are doing is wrong. It works -really- well in conjunction. Cops then break their nerve and have to be removed from the line. It's great.

As for a concern about how a 'more radical' position makes you appear, a 'more radical' position makes you appear signifigantly more rational.

I -do- appreciate your tone in this post, and I think your questions and concerns are sincere. I greatly appreciate your lack of judgement.

Interestingly, I'm friends with the 'fuck the troops' people, and while I personally have no love for that sign, I do know most all of them to be impressively active in their day to day lives. These aren't drunk punks who just go to shows and protest occasionally.

So... 07.Jan.2007 10:34

Same observer

Thank you, sleep-deprived, for staying awake a little longer to help explain your thoughts and actions to me. Let me assure you I was NOT one of the people yelling at you, pointing at you or blocking your sign. I understand the hipocrisy there and would never interfere with your right to free speech and expression (I always remember a picture from my history book of black police officers defending the KKK as they marched).

You seem like a much more intelligent person in this writing than you did on the banner. Do you understand how what the banner said allows people to write you off? It may make them mad but then they get over it, with the thought of, "they're just some dumb kids." Please, believe me here- I was raised democrat and only in the last six months or so turned anti-system. I am telling you, you are NOT having the effect on Joe Schmoe that you think you might be having. Perhaps writing something down, similar to what you've posted with your main points and supporting details, and passing that out to the crowds would have a better effect. You, and Dan Mark, and I'm sure many others, believe that making people mad will spur them into action but it doesn't work like that. They get made and it is easier for them to discount you. Swaying people with reason and logic is what will have a lasting effect on them, and as I see in your posting, you are able to do that.


One point, not to just you but also to the other respondants who want more military to stop being pawns-
Is a battered woman a pawn? There is help avaliable to her, after all. There are shelters, she can call the cops, right? Why does she go back to him? She ALLOWS him to beat her, right? If she would just stop allowing it, he'd stop, and she wouldn't be battered any more, right?

I'm late for work now but I appreciate your intelligent and un-attacking response, and I look forward to continuing this dialogue with you and anyone else who wants to join in.

Support the troops, OR? 07.Jan.2007 11:21

gk

This phrase on the troops might very well be the factor for which the Democrats will OK Bush's surge. Dems (and some Repubs, such as Sen. Smith of Oregon) are afraid they will not be reelected. We need to convey upon our congress people that they need to oppose all funds for the war, and if that means setting up vulgar signs, so be it. It's better than having no message.

Let's dance 07.Jan.2007 15:17

Emma G

The "war" in Iraq began in 1991 and continued throughtout the Clinton Administration and the Bush II Administration. Nothing we have done has stopped it. Let's welcome all opposition and all strategies short of murder.

Hmmm 07.Jan.2007 15:23

Den Mark, Vancouver

I did not say that making people mad will spur them to action. I said that truth must be part of the mix. People being mad is irrelevant. If people need to be catered to & coddled, they are too self-important to ever be useful to radical progress. Making people mad is never my own goal, but neither does it concern me. I'm happiest with political actions when they tell the truth. If people get mad, then they get mad. As i said, i thank those who organized the die-in, & i thank those who brought that banner. Both actions told the truth, or at least pointed toward the truth.

Look a little deeper Observer 08.Jan.2007 01:18

Participant

Having been also amongst the group with the banner, I'd like to point out in, response to your statement that the vulgarity of this banner "allows people to write (us) off", that no matter how clean or intellectual the banner was, people would still dismiss the statement if their previous experiences had not prepared them. Whether we are written off by Joe Schmoe as "dumb kids", commies, neo-cons, provocateurs, scallywags or what have you, the outcome is the same.

However as sleep deprived kid accurately addressed, the intent wasn't to start a revolution in the mind of Joe Schmoe, but rather to support and nurture the burgeoning thoughts of those feeling isolated by a disingenuous liberal colossus that claims to support murderers, and their victims (I think this irony has already been sufficiently addressed so I'll refrain from being redundant). It should be pretty clear to you by now that a good number of people could understand our message, and I think that it was neither too far out there nor too muddled by vulgarity for context to clarify our intention to those already leaning toward our position.

It seems all too common in this age of institutionalized minds to avoid making genuine statements because the right-wing media wont take you seriously. Fortunately for our position this holds no weight because we have no candidates and aren't seeking approval from a morosely obese system of greed and corruption.

I'd also like to state my revulsion at the last statement you made. First, in comparing hired killers to battered wives; and second, in comparing our rejection of murderers to victim blaming. It should be easy to determine that the victims in this case are not the troops, they are the Iraqi civilians that die by their hands daily. Making the comparison between the soldiers and battered women is horrifically distasteful. There is no valid comparison here and it seems incredibly dismissive of genuine victims to compare them to mercenaries.

As to blaming the victim, I'd like to continue the analogy to point out the inconsistencies. One could easily remark that the partner of a battered women is in fact a victim of patriarchal socialization, thus their actions stemming from this are not their fault, hence we should "support the batters, and take them home". The priority in this statement is obviously based on a bias toward the batterer, or the troops to remove the analogy. Because the troops, and their families are able to speak English, and happen to live in this region they are being given support for their dreadful actions. If you support the oppressor you cannot actually support the victim. You must choose one or the other. If you support the oppressor you are culpable for their actions, if you support the victim you must renounce the oppressor. In any context other than these fucked up nationalist murder campaigns the cry to support oppressors would not make any sense even to the irrational United States public. It is true that the U.S. troops are victims of the State, however when they seek to victimize others in its name (i.e. sign up) they cease to be victims and become the oppressors.

So yeah, as harsh as it might sound compared to the two-faced PR Campaign that the liberals are running, it's about time we start saying fuck the troops, because the more they die the safer Iraqi civilians become.

Believing the Dream 08.Jan.2007 02:11

citizenMe

I just have to say kudos for the civility and penatating dialogue. This is the power of indymedia and this is what the peace process looks like. Not only will you gain strength by practicing what you preach, but by joining hands you mend the rifts between the scattered factions and form an allied front. Anger is warranted and necessary, but must be directed in the correct action, otherwise it is too destructive. And civility is necessary, but must be anchored with resolve and courage to speak the awful truth. Once we all come together, we will wake up and this nightmare will finally be over.

Ears To Hear With 08.Jan.2007 14:28

Den Mark, Vancouver

A couple posters here are not understanding what others write. Get INTO the message, would you, please, instead of just looking at isolated words at surface level. I think i understand, largely if not totally, what Sleep Deprived Kid & Participant are saying. They, despite, or maybe because of, their anger, would sooner liberate ALL people than liberal sentimentality & self-righteousness ever would. It is a LIE that anger is a negative or destructive emotion. Sometimes it is the ONLY emotion that's both humane & appropriate. The bannerers made a point, an important point, a vital point. To ignore their message, to not hold "the troops" accountable, is not helpful. I've heard liberals argue, for example, that impeachment is negative, divisive, whatever. What nonsense. Every erring society must face its errors before change can occur. Truth, truth, truth! Tell the truth! Tell it loudly, bravely. The truth! Over & over. Make people mad. Who the hell cares. Tell the truth!

It hurts me to say this 09.Jan.2007 14:55

Bash

I think everyone against the war has a connection to it somewhat. I have a cousin in Iraq who is a firefighter, but you know what, I don't support the troops. I have told my cousin that I do not support what US soldiers are doing to the Iraqi's and I told him that merely "just taking orders" is not a valid excuse for killing innocent people. He firmly disagreed with me and said that it wasn't the soldiers fault. Well, 6 months and a dispatch to Iraq later, he wrote me a letter. He told me that the war was plainly disgusting and he renounced his previous respect to Bush. I see soldiers feeling obligated to fulfill their duties because of the amount of support to them. They see themselves as being part of the solution to the repression in Iraq when in reality they are fueling the fire. As said before, they are responsible for killing Iraqi's, even if they were "just taking orders". They need to know that we don't support them because we don't support the war. In that, if there is no support, what is the motive? They are not protecting us, instead putting us in more danger. We are in more danger now than we were 5 years ago. If the soldiers get that message they will start taking action. We can already see it starting now. Rumsfeld was fired because multiple army, navy, and military papers argued against his strategy. The troops are the main factor here.

But, even being a "radical" or whatever, I really don't agree with the "fuck the troops" sign. I mean I definitely understand the message but it really would be more effective if it was reworded. A sign like that is exactly like the news showing the supposed "anarchists" breaking local store windows in Seattle in 99. Anarchy is about reaching out and connecting with the people to show a new sort of way of thinking. People don't understand that anarchy is connected with philosophy. If people don't understand the philosophy then the actions of anarchists look like kids that just want attention for being rebels. I definitely understand the importance of "fuck the troops", but it obviously is not connecting with the liberals, who remember are not enemies but just misinformed. In relation to the ineffectivness of spreading the anti-war message, if your message is only aimed to informing those who already understand, isn't it just as pointless? Now, normally, I wouldn't be speaking out against my comrades but this is not to bash on you, just inform you on my concerns. Fuck the troops just pisses people off, and I for one am fed up with getting yelled at by liberals. A better sign could just as easily say "killing is killing, even if your just taking orders" or "I don't support murder, therefor I don't support the troops". Sure, you'd get liberals yelling at you, that's inevitable, but the claim that you'd get the exact same response from a less aggressive sign is rediculous. You can't force a message on someone, you have to connect with them, and trying to connect with harsh signs that are easily misunderstood is really counterproductive. When liberals see a sign like that they will disregard you as one without any education on the issue, and won't be open to listening to your message. Your hearts are in the right place, but the message is easily misunderstood. I'm sure it wouldn't have gotten as hostile as it was if the sign was more easily understood and less aggressive. I don't support the troops, I don't support the war, but I do support communication to liberals. I do support at least attempting to have them understand our side. A sign like "fuck the troops" just seperates us, much like liberals saying they are going to turn us in because they don't support our methods. We are allies, we are aiming at one common goal, except one side reaches to go farther.

That's all I got to say, and if people are going to get mad at me for that whatever, that's my belief.