Support for Darren Thurston Withdrawn

As long as we're on this messy taboo subject, I'd like to ask, why is it that Darren and Chelsea's support web sites are still hosted by supposed radical web groups?

SupportChelsea.org is hosted by MutualAid.org Go ahead, check it our yourself at  http://www.hcidata.co.uk/host2ip.htm

FreeDarren.org is a little harder to find. Doing a WHOIS at  http://all-nettools.com/toolbox , his domain resolves to IPs 207.216.0.0 - 207.216.255.255 which apparently is hosted by "iSTAR internet Inc", a Canadian ISP. Resist.ca owns domains on that IP range, such as mail.resist.ca Looks like the folks at Resist like making it hard to track down who hosts what.

So, since Mutual Aid and Resist handle the email communications and web sites for a fair chunk of the entire left in north America, why is it that they still host web sites asking people to support snitches? If you have a Resist or Mutual Aid account, you might want to ask them that.

people need to hold biteback! and no compromise to task for continuing to support darren thurston even though he is now a government informant. this violates the policies of both magazines in regard to support of snitches. must we remind them of justin samuel? they rightly turned a cold shoulder to justin's pathetic attempts to return to a community he betrayed, and now they need to do the same with darren thurston. it really sucks when its your friend, but hey, if you're fighting for the total liberation of animals, you have to make some tough choices.

this issue has just recently come into a more clear light, so you have to give them time. plus it takes time to publish a magazine, and situations change quickly so it can take waiting until the next issue for them to update their stance.

the ELPSN's jury is still out on Darren.
this is from a few weeks ago (latest update):
"With the exception of Darren Thurston, all of the others had been previously named, by ELP, as police informants and their cooperation with the prosecution has been long established. We understand from a statement circulated by Darren Thurston's support campaign that following his Guilty plea Thurston is expecting a reduced sentence of 37 months imprisonment. There has been some speculation as to the reason why Thurston may receive a reduced sentence and ELP, in partnership with others, is looking into the matter. We hope to bring you the findings of our investigation within the next few days."

so, i will wait until they come out with something to go around publicly denouncing Darren. but it doesn't look very good, unless he only spoke about the co-operating defendants' roles.

time will tell.

We all have limited amounts of energy and time. I strongly believe that spending time campaigning against support for cooperators like Darren and Chelsea is "supporting them" in that it is focusing limited time energy and resources on them rather than on those who are not cooperatating. Who really gives a fuck if Darren is still getting letters? I'm much more concerned about whether Joyanna and Nathan are getting letters.

Moreover we live in a world full of really bad things happening. I also believe that much much worse things are happening (like the contiued destruction of the earth). If time is going to be put into campaigning against a bad thing - I also believe a much more "bad thing" can be found to campaign against rather than who cooperated.

i see, so your position is that it doesn't matter who has or hasn't betrayed communities in resistance and turned in fellow comrades. according to you, we should just let informants off the hook because well, who has time to hold people accountable for their actions?

gee, your logic is amazing.

darren thurston has muddled, denied, and tiptoed around his cooperation with the state. he has tried to hide his involvement in order to continue to get support and keep his standing (i understand his reputation was quite high) in the communities he was a part of. i think it is vital that if darren is cooperating, that the communities he was a part of hold him to task. all we have right now to possibly defend ourselves from snitches, informants, agent provacateurs, and cooperating witnesses is community shame as well as expulsion. snitches aren't our friends-- they help the state send you to jail and they deserve no continued support or place in our communities.

How the fuck does it help any of us to drone on about how Darren is a snitch. The information is out there, make up your mind and then leave it at that. Seems most people posting in this thread have, so why post? Is it just for the sake of grandstanding? Why does it matter if Darren is still getting mail? It's people choice whether or not to support someone when the information is out, it's not your place to make that decision for them. Perhaps there are circumstances and history that you know nothing of. Perhaps they're just skeptical of this movement and its condemnations. Also, since I'm on this messy subject, how does it help to drag other respected activist groups, on who's service most of us depend, into this cesspool of accusations and infighting? Oh wait, I forgot, that's how this movement is built: to self-destruct...who needs the Feds, when time after time, we do it to ourselves.

holy supposition batman!

1. in your very first paragraph you associate silence from the support team as some sort of evidence that darren is an evil dude. silence does not equal guilt. even the state pays lip service to this notion!

2. then you go on to imply that extended visiting hours for out-of-towners is a perk for co-operation or something. this is nothing more than innuendo. maybe it's the jail's policy, maybe darren has a good lawyer who can wrangle that sort of stuff, maybe the guard on duty was feeling charitable. who knows? you certainly don't. don't pretend.

3. you state that the treaty transfer to canada show some sort of 'preferential' treatment. well, first off: it hasn't happened yet. it's a hope. secondly, it's a *treaty* transfer. darren is a canadian citizen and, as such, is eligable to apply for it.

4. i don't know why there is a 17 point downward departure. you don't know either. once again you seem more than happy to interpret lack of information to mean something it doesn't. there are lots of other potential reasons for this downward departure. darren is a canadian and the departure may be for international relations reasons -- there have been a lot of cases over the years where canadians in u.s. jails have been the cause of international friction. or perhaps it's because darren will have been in remand for over a year by the time of sentencing. in many cases, ramand time is counted against the sentence, often at an increased rate. since that is not a legal option in this case, the increased downward departure may be to reflect that time served. you don't know.

5. as for the redacted parts of the plea, once again: you don't know. please don't make inferences. if you're so convinced that lack of information is the hallmark of guilt, maybe you should be working for the da's office.

now i will say this: darren has been through the 'justice' system off-and-on for political activity for almost fifteen years. he's done a stretch in canada for an alf liberation, been subjected to a five year campaign of harassment by the rcmp in vanvcouver. the mounties even once pressured his employer into firing him for being too radical.

this man has had the shit rain down on his head far harder than any of posters here can imagine. and through all of that he has only ever acted with courage and conviction. why don't you ferret out some of the people who have stood as defendants with him in the past and ask them what their experience with darren was? i can guaran-fuckin-tee you that those people will say nothing but positive things.

with that kind of history i have to say that with the absence of data as it is and given the choice between trusting the word of an activist and a man i have known most of my life, and trusting the word of somebody whinging on the internet i will choose darren.

ravachol - Please explain to me why Darren's lawyer has made it a point to conceal parts of his agreement and fought to keep the transcripts sealed? If someone has nothing to hide, than nothing is hidden! It's so obvious, please wake up.

"We" as a "movement" are not the mob. When someone snitches and sells out their friends, "we" don't kill them and make their families disappear. The rumor that someone had thrown a rock through Jacob Ferguson's window is the biggest act of retaliation against an eco snitch I've heard of in recent memory. Despite all the posturing about "snitches get snitches" and "snitches get dead" and all that macho bullshit, snitches are perfectly safe individuals who are never punished in any way shape or form, and probably most never suffer worse repercussions than a nasty instant message or two.

When the worst punishment that "the movement" can dole out is to cut a snitch off from email lists and social circles, and "we" can't even bring ourselves to do something "that harsh", what they hell does that say about our own commitments to a supposed life of "no deal assholes!" and "no compromise!"? If "we" as a "movement" can't even handle losing a friend over this big depressing massively harmful debacle, then what on earth are "we" willing to sacrifice? The non-cooperating defendants are probably going to end up losing decades of their lives up over this tragic fucked up case. It's insulting that there are so many people not even willing to go through the awkwardness of giving up on an old friend.

As for calling out Resist and Mutual Aid, I stand by that. There should be some accountability about who is still providing support resources to snitches, *especially* when so many people in the movement are dependant on those two online groups for their email services and web hosting.

Some in this thread complain that all we can do is drone on that Darren is a snitch. However, this is not true. The last time anything was said was in late August when he signed the plea agreement. When the dust settled from that furor, he was quietly removed from various lists and websites. Everything was tactful, but clear. Now, despite the efforts of Darren's counsel, the public court transcripts that were sealed have been made again public and we can read US Attorney Kirk Engdall refer to Paragraph 15 of the plea agreement (also only recently released) as the terms of his cooperation. That is no supposition.

It's funny that Ravachol numbered some statements 1-5 as I had asked 5 numbered questions, which these points, however, do not address. Your points 1-4 seem to be grasping at straws - of course we can only assume why the government is being relatively generous to Darren given that this is an "eco-terror" case, but in the agreement Darren signed as "factual basis of his guilt" he fingered two indictees who are not cooperating, and three others who are, one of which - Chelsea Gerlach - can point her finger at the deceased and say "he did it alone," yet remain linked to Darren through their support sites. Why is Darren's website linking to someone who is beyond doubt cooperating - who expressed remorse for hurting people in actions where no being was harmed? The fingering is inexcusable, and the Chelsea link is sketchy as hell.

As for your last three paragraphs, I specifically said his reputation was not a factor in his defense. People change, some others are obstinate. Ravachol (interesting choice of namesakes - he was executed), you must be in the latter category. Given the epigraph above, that's going to leave a bad taste in your mouth.

"Darren Thurston is our comrade. We have worked with him and others
involved in the current situation for many years. The relationship we
have with him allows us to trust that he and others are doing the best
they can, given the current circumstances. We therefore continue to
support him.

We urge everyone to wait before coming to hard and fast conclusions
about Darren or any of the other defendants' actions until all court
documents are unsealed and all the parties are able to speak freely
regarding their positions and reasons for their decisions.

In solidarity,
The Resist! Collective"

So, what is it that you folks are all confused about? If court transcripts of Darren swearing before a judge that Joe Dibee and Rebecca Rubin took part in an ALF action is not "evidence" of Darren telling the feds that Joe Dibee and Rebecca Rubin took part in an ALF action, then what on earth is? I don't see what on earth anyone could possibly be confused about.

Sorry for interveining, as I'm not part of you "movement" but as a person that have more than 10 years experience in prissoner support work, I want to make a simple comment:

1) I think all of you have to think what is the reason that the authorities, despite of the fact that they have so many material against most of the defendants they still suggesting plea bargains and "reduce" sentencing if people are ready to "confess" & to witness against others (for exmple: from reading this thread it's clear that the authorities had anough material to convict Darren without his "confessing" - e.g. they had at least "confessions" of 2 other people)...

The only possible reason is that the authorities try to break your movement by dividing it, and breading the . If, after less than one year, and long time before sentencing, more than half of your fallen comrades are labled by you "traitors" or "collaborators" it is a serious problem. The main consequence of it is that every activist will think 1000 times if, when arrested, he will be one of the heroes that will be approved by your movement, or no...

2) We hare an old sentence that says: "a man with his hands in water is not like the man with his hands in fire, and a man that get beaten by the sticks is not like the man that counts the sticks..." what I mean -
You are accepting the false attitude of the authorities as if the people that signed the pleas (and "confessed") were doing it "willingly" without being forced. The trouth is deifferent - all this people that "confessed" and made pleas while being in prison, were forced - thay did it under circumstansed of isolation, threat etc.

3) We in Palestine have more than 10,000 political prisoners - some uniques are great heroes - people that died under torture & didn't speak even one word - we great their honor, chant & sing about them, write about them books and poems - but those heroes are few... there are much more people that in some point of the interrogation & imprisonement broke up, and "confess" (including false confessions) about themselve & others. We doesn't remove the support to those people... the only people that doesn't get support are the people that "willingly" made others fall - (e.g. taped other people, get from that "confessions" etc.) We belive that this make the movement stronger, because people who are more sure in the support will break less...

4) We behave this way, even that our heart is broken for our friends & comrades that are in prison because others were not strogn enough... Just this week I was in a sentence of one man (and he is a friend) that is now more than a year imprisoner on remand (prior to trial). and this week was the main and only witness against him on the stand (there are not other evidences exept of his word signed under an outh)... this witness (that was allready sentenced) withdrawl in front of the judge from his words (that were signed under an outh) and said that he witnessed against our comrade because he was threaten, isolated, frightened & felt that he must give some names, and he belived that this particular man will have an aliby becuase 'everybody know that all his activity is leagel'(!)...The judge prefered to belive his past claims, that were signed under an outh, and not his new claims...
Even if my friend will be evicted, he will spend at least 2 years in prison on remand... and it's not sure at all that he'll be evicted, because this is how it's go on this time of "the international war on terrorism"... end even under those circumstanses, It's better not to withdrawl the support even from such activists, becuase of all the things I mentioned before...

thank the goddess a voice of reason, experience, intelligence, and compassion has spoken up and offered some perspective. the animal rights and environmental bowel movements would do well to graduate out of name-calling kindergarden and enter the real world, a world that has community and love at its foundation and not the insane and insidious race-to-isolate some of the most effective and dedicated people we have. if you're looking for political purity in the movement you might as well be a brown shirt.

From the response given above - I don't think Resist says they are confused. Resist is not saying they are confused. Nor does Resist have a position on prisoner support in general - they clearly support Darren because they have worked with him in the past and will likely continue to do so. This shrill finger-pointing is getting a bit tired Sabrina. Go do something useful.

This is the most sane response I've read in these forums in a long time. Our "movement" has much to learn and I fear, because of attitudes like some of those displayed above, we won't and the consequence will be total and utter failure. I think the last year has signaled a change for those of us engaged in this struggle, it definitely took a more serious turn. Yes there have been arrests before, yes there have been tragedies, but I don't think anyone can argue that anything from the past has been on the scale we're seeing now. I also don't think any of us are foolish enough to imagine that it is over, or that things will somehow get better. The only real question is how will we respond: by fighting with each other, by condemning people in jail when we have NO idea how we would react if we found ourselves in similar circumstances? I mean, how many of us can set aside our egos long enough to imagine what it would be like to be in a cell for 23 hours a day, facing 300+ years. Do you remember what the jails did initially, during the first few weeks after the arrests? Remember the "suicide watch," which in reality was (in my opinion) a mild form of torture. That's NOT to say that we should all turn on our comrades, but be self-righteous enough to condemn others for actions we might have been forced to take ourselves? The point is, you really don't know until you're there. Good people have fallen in this "Green Scare," and our best response is to condemn and imagine ourselves better than them, all the while never turning the finger back on ourselves. How much support do we give to our brothers and sisters in the underground? Where are the LEGITIMATE press offices and support resources? Were is the concerted effort to give as much publicity and meaning to their actions as possible? Where is the prisoner support movement capable of actually- dare I say -liberating our fallen friends and allies. There has to be a better strategy for dealing with all of this, as the one we have is obviously not working. Just look at the amount of infighting and the lack of action. I CERTAINLY don't have all of the answers, just a shit load of questions and grief over the state of things.

The Sawsan post is an excellent article on doing political support work. The type of posts that condemn and withdraw support unilaterally are patronizing and insulting to the rest of us and a bit naive to think the government no longer engages in COINTELPRO like activities. Post the facts, and we as intelligent people will come to our own conclusions. One of those conclusions might then be that some people we might like and care for are in fact cooperating (or collaborating) and STILL deserve our support! We don't have to be in denial or remain uncritical, we can easily say that we prefer that no one collaborate or cooperate, and definitely prioritize movement resources to be made available to those who are not cooperating, but as the good comrades from Resist have pointed out the basis of support is on friendship and respect AND we as a movement have the right to reserve judgement until all of the facts have become known. Those not cooperating definitely deserve our utmost respect. I would go further and say that we as a movement have a right to the information posted in those support sites and would argue strongly that RESIST, MutualAid etc are doing the movement a great service by continuing to host those sites. I also think that by continuing a critical support we can put a break on how much they are cooperating, and maybe not. I'm not talking about uncritical support that undermines those not cooperating. I do know that by cutting them off completely we more easily isolate them and leave them vulnerable to full collaboration. Doesn't that play straight into the governments hands? Isn't the effort to shut down support web sites somewhat equivalent to sealing court documents? Maybe the truth isn't so black and white, but a terrible shade of grey?

Hannah Arendt was once asked, after having to flee Germany to the US why she still kept in touch with (and had a romantic affair with) her old professor Martin Heideggar, a member of the Nazi party. Her response is telling, and maybe appropriate here. This is a paraphrase as I don't have the exact quote: "When two people have respect and friendship between them they can handle any amount of difference, but when friendship and respect are lacking any difference at all becomes insurmountable". Facts posted to Indy Media are very useful. Keep them respectful, even of those cooperating. Whether or not one believes the government still uses snitch jacketing as a tactic one can argue that the government in this particular case was very successful in breaking other prisoners who were not cooperating at first by creating a climate of betrayal (isn't that a form of snitch jacketing?). Aren't posts condemning snitches also playing into the governments hands by isolating comrades? Why not post the facts and we, without illusions will continue to support our comrades and continue to fight the government and multinationals, with the power of unity on our side, stronger because we are not afraid of the truth but have the strength as a movement to continue to support those who have broken. To abandon friends who one respects seems cold and weak and not the sort of movment I am fighting to build. The tactics used by the government are nearly the same that the Italian government used to break the Red Brigades and Autonomist movements in the '70's with "repenti's" If we are to learn from the past then we need to study it and not be dismissive of it.

Ultimately as Sawsan has pointed out there are very few heroes in our movement. Instead the strength of our movement is precisely based on ordinary people deciding to take action. These folks are not heroes, but I respect them none the less, and will continue to do so, even if sometimes feeling let down and I don't see a contradiction in that, nor any feeling of denial. In the same way that those who are not cooperating have my infinite respect for being strong enough to stand up to the pressure against them and I sincerely hope they can hold out despite all the public bickering in the support movement and the feelings of betrayal that they must feel by those cooperating.

In Palestine if you work as a snitch for the occupying forces you are likely to get shot.

Political prisoner support activist do not support snitches.

It is not a basic principle of prison support activism to support snitches.

Supporting snitches=supporting the FBI because that is who they work for.

A movement that does not at least ostracize snitches is a sad sham of a movement. It is the same as spitting in the face of any activist that does not snitch.

The majority of the people in this case have not snitched. 4 of them MIA, 5 await trial, 1 is deceased, another sits in jail for refusing to talk to the grand jury. Others also refused to talk to the grand jury but have not been sent to jail for it. The snitch apologists on this site would like you to believe that it's okay to snitch because everybody is doing it., but that isn't the case. Everybody is not doing it and those people who have maintained their integrity need to be supported.

Darren Thurston and all the other snitches, who now work for the FBI, are first rate scumbags and have no place in any movement for justice and freedom.