WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH THE ANTIWAR MOVEMENT??????...

There ARE millions organizing to oppose the war: Those directly effected by it. The less-effected you are by any government policy, the less you'll resist it. Latinos are organizing against the anti-immigrant policies becase they are the ones who will be directly effected by it. White America will organize against the war when it begins to fuck up their lives: that's why Bush won't bring back the draft. The insurgency is going to have to kill a lot more soldiers before all of America begins to resist the war. People just aren't willing to get beat up by cops unless they have no other options. Right now, drinking a beer and watching some more TV hurts a lot less...

You could say that the patriotic-appearing demonstrators are in fact supporting economic oppression & megacorp hegemony by providing a labour pool that is especially vulnerable to capitalist exploitation.

Why aren't these latinos marching with us against the war?

That's not fair. Latinos ARE marching against the war. The Army preys on them, offering "job training" or even "citizenship" to those who'll join. Many latinos have died in Iraq, including many green-card holding non-citizens who didn't even have the right to vote in Bush's election

Just as we predicted: Iraq has descended into totally chaotic civil war, the American people (in their stated opinion surveys) are turning more and more against our participation there, and Bush's approval numbers are at all-time lows, as all the pretexts given for invasion have been showed, one by one, to be bullshit.

Why aren't people up in arms? Why is there nothing like the numbers of demonstrators in the street we saw in the initial stages of the invasion, let alone the millions more who should rush to join them with the indignant realization that "they've been had"?

The French know how to demonstrate and get meaningful results with their movements. Witness Chirac's retreat. Latino workers stunned this country and did something the rest of us can only dream about by facing down the bullies and bigots who have seized control of our national government. They also know how to demonstrate.

What is wrong with the rest of us? It's really simple: we are weak and divided. The essentially racist nature of American society precludes any real cooperation across ethnic lines, so the mainly white opposition movement staggers on lamely by itself.
Working people and small business owners have as much to lose as anyone from the systematic looting of the country but have never been observed to be anywhere but on the sidelines of antiwar demonstrations.

In one case, the labor movement has also laid an egg, humbling the working class. In the other, small business owners are permanently locked into hopeless dog-eat-dog struggle with one another as well as major corporations, putting the lie to such fatuous notions as "sustainable connections" and "living local economies." Desperate folks like these are inherently incapable of defending any but the most narrowly defined of interests.

The youth of our country have as much on the line as anyone in this debate, but where are they, particularly the educated youth that made so much of a difference in the sixties and seventies? To answer this question we have to look at America's evolving class structure, as binding and restrictive as it has been at anytime in living memory.

Since the eighties, who could really afford to have kids and then send them to college (paying the ever-escalating tuitions) other than those who benefitted from Reagan's (and all his successors') policies in the first place? Hence, today, the typical collegian is just like his counterparts in the days before the G.I. Bill of Rights
democratized higher education: affluent, connected, and elitist.

This returns us to the U.S. antiwar "movement," composed mainly of the aging remnants of whatever is left of the U.S. middle class. The median age of most rallies, meetings and vigils I have attended has been well into the fifties. You have to figure most people will only come out if they are already secure in their retirement; if they're still working, they won't come out because they have a boss to fear.

What must be recognized is that there is a leadership to the antiwar movement, despite what Scott Ritter says, and I am not referring to ANSWER or Not in Our Name, even though these folks have never received enough credit for organizing the really major events against the war. What I am referring to is the force or forces behind the much smaller, community-scaled events where like-minded individuals really have a chance to make contact with each other.

These groups include, but are not limited to, the various "Peace and Justice" centers, Sound Nonviolent Opponents of War (remember them?), the Fellowship of Reconciliation, etc. All have this much in common: they are very much faith-based, operating with the support and cooperation of local churches, which in turn donate funds and meeting space. What we must do is follow the money trail and ask where this funding is really coming from.

If we answer that question truthfully, we will see that the bulk of their money originates with corporate grants and government payments. In other words, these folks are beholden to the very same entities they are purporting to organize against! What do they offer in turn? Well, for one thing, they're very skilled in social work, and that means keeping documents (dossiers)on people involved. Is there any wonder then why most people want nothing to do with such groups when they realize Homeland Security is going to get a record of everything they say and do.

It's not clear to me how we are going to kindle the kind of spirt in our nation which seems so strong among our Latin counterparts. I know this though: we will never get anywhere as long as we rely on the "guidance" of religious leaders, whose views are inevitably muddled, conflicted and reactionary. The truth is no one trusts these bastards either. If we are to build a credible antiwar movement, we need to make a decisive break with them and engender new forms of organization that will do as much.

WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH THE ANTIWAR MOVEMENT??????...

Answer: It died at the end of the 1960's

College students WERE the progessive, self-thinking patriots back then.

Look at the lame, self-centered ($$$) college students of the 21st century.
Shameful.

There are many today who, possibly because of the culture that now exists, are more interested in getting ahead, following the latest trend and essentially living a directionless path. This is not to generalize about everyone, but this sterile culture is pervasive. Just look at the media and pop culture. Radio is dead. There is not one decent music radio station in Portland. I am getting so sick and tired of play lists, boring crap that poses for music and a loss of anything but "safe" music. Where are the KPIG's that I heard on a recent trip to Santa Cruz?

Most of the die hard anti-war peeps are aging Vietnam Veterans.

In response to Marleen's:
Answer: It died at the end of the 1960's
College students WERE the progessive, self-thinking patriots back then.


We hippy-dippy kids of the 60's had great asperations and great dreams. What happened to them? What happened to us? My generation of the 60's became the ME generation. Let's not forget that for every aging 60's flower child, who still fights the good fight, there's 10 times more (of that generation) that have corrupted every segment of our culture. Look at all the positions of power in government, in corporations, in academia. It's the ME generation that's in power today. Perhaps we need to hold up a mirror to ourselves before we start beating on the young folks, who don't trust anyone, including aging hippies.

No one cares today because the war doesn't directly affect them. There is a big difference between the Viet Nam fiasco and the Iraq fiasco - THE DRAFT. If the sons & daughters of middle to upper income families were being drafted and dying then you bet there would be outrage. The Criminal Bush Regime has cleverly avoided the Draft by spending our tax dollars on Contractors in current wars. They get just enough cannon-fodder from the "all volunteer" military and then supplement it with paid Contractor war-lords and mercenaries.

My take is that the same folks that are behind focusing the anti-war demonstrations energy into the democratic party are the same people that are organizing immgrants rights campaigns into "write your senator campaingns." It seemed to me that a lot of the protestors at todays march were more radical than the organizers. There were a lot of Che flags, and Chavez shirts there, a lot of the chants were la raza. People started cheering when they marched through the streets. A whole lot of the organizers energy seemed to be spent helping the cops keep people from doing this. That was frustrating, and sadly predictable.

As for people that go around blaming immigrants for not wanting to be more involved in the "peace movement" I'd suggest looking deep inside yourself, and thinking about your own problems for a change.

there was a draft during the viet nam war. this created some "personal" feelings, to say the least. if you were opposed to the war, yet you or your siblings or your friends had no choice but to go to boot camp and come home fucked up or dead, it was simply impossible to pretend that the war had no impact on you, was some abstract thing, or was something that "someone else" had to worry about.

the same with immigration today. these people may lose their livelihoods, their jobs, and their way of life. this is personal, this cannot be avoided or ignored, this is not abstract. so this is why people are taking to the streets in such numbers.

the war in iraq is beng fought without a draft. however, i would guarantee that if the bush admin. were to do anything against iran, and the whole middle east lights up like a fire in a munitions dump, and there's a shortage of troops, and the bush admin. returns to the draft, i will guarantee that the whole nature of the anti-war demostrations will change, A LOT. that's when it get's personal, that's when the gloves come off, that's when the cost of war isn't "someone else's" problem.

(hence the lack of the draft, so the government can avoid this very problem...)

but regardless, i would agree that the anti-war "scene" in this country is weak, disorganized, and for the most part ineffectual. for the reasons above, and also because in my opinion the left wing/progressive movement in this country couldn't organize around a single national position if it's life depended on it. all the teeny weeny little tiny splinter groups out there need to stop back biting each other and wasting SO MUCH ENERGY picking stupid, pointless fights with themselves AND COME TOGETHER, ALREADY, DAMMIT. tactics are NOT the issue. ideological minutia is NOT the issue. how you live your life is NOT the issue. the food you eat is NOT the issue. the issue is UNITING. all else follows. and for that matter, why not just temporarily unite around ONE issue, for ONE WEEK, or ONE DAY, and if that's such a problem for some, then go back to the left wing/progressive way of pointless infighting and back biting...

there was a draft during the viet nam war. this created some "personal" feelings, to say the least. if you were opposed to the war, yet you or your siblings or your friends had no choice but to go to boot camp and come home fucked up or dead, it was simply impossible to pretend that the war had no impact on you, was some abstract thing, or was something that "someone else" had to worry about.

the same with immigration today. these people may lose their livelihoods, their jobs, and their way of life. this is personal, this cannot be avoided or ignored, this is not abstract. so this is why people are taking to the streets in such numbers.

the war in iraq is beng fought without a draft. however, i would guarantee that if the bush admin. were to do anything against iran, and the whole middle east lights up like a fire in a munitions dump, and there's a shortage of troops, and the bush admin. returns to the draft, i will guarantee that the whole nature of the anti-war demostrations will change, A LOT. that's when it get's personal, that's when the gloves come off, that's when the cost of war isn't "someone else's" problem.

(hence the lack of the draft, so the government can avoid this very problem...)

but regardless, i would agree that the anti-war "scene" in this country is weak, disorganized, and for the most part ineffectual. for the reasons above, and also because in my opinion the left wing/progressive movement in this country couldn't organize around a single national position if it's life depended on it. all the teeny weeny little tiny splinter groups out there need to stop back biting each other and wasting SO MUCH ENERGY picking stupid, pointless fights with themselves AND COME TOGETHER, ALREADY, DAMMIT. tactics are NOT the issue. ideological minutia is NOT the issue. how you live your life is NOT the issue. the food you eat is NOT the issue. the issue is UNITING. all else follows. and for that matter, why not just temporarily unite around ONE issue, for ONE WEEK, or ONE DAY, and if that's such a problem for some, then go back to the left wing/progressive way of pointless infighting and back biting...

Just how many generations have passed the blame for societal ills on the next generation, all the while claiming to have "fixed" the ones of their generation? Did the radicals of the late 1800's complain about the passiveness and ineffectiveness of the WWI anti-war protests?
I take a little offensive to, "Look at the lame, self-centered ($$$) college students of the 21st century." This implies that only college students are the movement. A bit classist, ageist, and hardly accurate. I guess that's what happens when we try to paint a picture with too large of a brush.
It certainly doesn't describe me and I really doubt it describes the majority of the people that were out on the streets protesting the war last month. This continuing struggle as to who are the better activists is what is killing the anti-war movement.
There is no such thing as, "The good old days", not even in activism.

>This continuing struggle as to who are the better activists is what is killing the anti-war movement.<

THAT'S what i'm talking about. it's stupid. don't do it. it's doesn't HELP anything. for one day, can't we just forget all our petty differences for a little while and come together? is that really so hard? that's all i'm saying. unite...

Thank you for your insigtful comments. However, not ONE response suggested so much as a dog show for peace. ANY IDEAS PEOPLE????? THere are already enuff OPINIONS!!!!

I found your comment very insightful. We need to unite. In another post, someone suggested we somehow ally ourselves to the Immigrant protests. In San Francisco, it seemed like they'd already done so ... at the immigrant rally I attended, they were holding up "World Can't Wait / Drive out the Bush Regime" signs in Spanish. Oppressed people everywhere need to unite to get rid of these fascists. But I'm afraid most people aren't really inspired to do anything until it affects them personally. I'm affected personally. Jose the illegal immigrant who'll have to leave his wife and kids to flee to Mexico, opening his wife to felony charges for "harboring an illegal" and possibly losing her kids to foster care ... they're affected personally, too. When will Joe Sixpack realize he's being affected personally by these fascists? Maybe when the price of gas goes up to six bucks a gallon. Maybe when, like Argentina circa 2001, there's only so much money he's allowed to take out of the bank. Maybe when China drops a nuke on us after Bush starts WWIII in Iran. But it seems like most of us are just sitting like frogs in a slowly simmering pot, allowing our hard-won civil rights to be stripped away ... until the day tanks show up in Toledo, Ohio. Until we realize we're all New Orlanders now.

The thing is only in the lies of the mass media do the farts of the amreican government get posted. Between the chants and rants we, everyone, know the truth, for a long time. It could be since 11-22-63. or since The Gulf of Tonkin or so many other lies. I think the greatest lie in the US is they, the people, don't see through it. How many people living in their own nations do you have to kill before the idea of calling it freedom is seen through?

GEORGE W(WARCRIMINAL)BUSH is evil, but what of the american people that did not oppose the 'elections'? The problem with America is not that it is hard working and can't resist or too frighten and can't speakout, for history has showen us so many, who have done so much more for just the same.

the movement of the 60's failed because it lacked direction - pure and simple. You want to end war, or you want a certain president to resign, and then you go have a picnic with your friends. The problem is that there are countless other wars and other evil presidents waiting to fill the void. If you are anti-war, but not anti-capitalism, you aren't really anti-war at all; you are not against dirty-wars in far off places (central and south america), you aren't against massive air-strikes (Yugoslavia), you are simply against american troops dying... that seems to be all the anti-war movement really cares about - Americans.

There is no anti-war movement because white liberals dont really give a shit. Get it through your heads people. There is no point to berate people for not coming up with ideas. At all the immigrant marches around the country, they do not have some novel ideas, they simple have enough people with motivation and passion to do something. That just does not exist in White America. Anti-war organizers have organized until they were blue in the face. It took months of work to get 10,000 people in the streets of Portland and now they are all gone again. They did not come out the next day and the next day, and the next week. They are just not interested.

Latino organizers have not done some sort of amazing organizing. The people want to do something. White America simply does not care. Everyone arguing on this site can unite, work together, spend months and they will not be able to get White America in the streets in significant numbers. That's just the way it is. That does not mean stop trying, but it does mean that it is pointless to blame organizers, critics, arguments, ideas and methods.

Latino organizers have not done some sort of amazing organizing

I agree with a lot of the statements above. There still has not been a solution. I personaly do not know enough about organizing protests and getting everyone off their asses to do something about it. For one, I havent been directly involved with organizing a protest. I know shame on me. I have all the time in the world right now to. By no means am I not including myself on anything I say. I am to blame as well. There are a couple of suggestions that I can think of, but I think whoever above said that people, at least white america, is not going to wake up until it directly effects their lives, is right.

First off, all of the thousands of stupid small pocket organizations (i know they have done their share of good work) need to unite together as one. Who cares about all the differences they/we have. Is it so hard to to agree that the war is unjust, that this country is being controlled by criminals, and that our rights and freedoms are in danger, if not lost already? That should be enough to put all else aside and to unite as a common force. After we take care of this war, and stop future wars such as Iran, and fix our openly undemocratic elections... then we can start working on the rest of our cares. Such as national healthcare, a new education system, gay rights, patriot act, ect. I think things would be much more effective if we could do that.

Secondly, all the people on here, including myself, who talk about how we need to be out there everyday, every week, should be standing on the street corners of portland holding signs and flags and speaking to people. Everyday. Maybe, then just maybe, people would slowely start to join those few and maybe it will grow larger and larger and mass to something more. Its a long shot in the dark but its worth a try? Even if it doesnt grow at least people would see you every day and maybe then people would start to think about what you are doing and why, and see the consistancy and determination that we have. Maybe that would inspire some people.

As far as large protests go. Free Speech zones have to go. We need to stop paying for that crap. The sidewalk rules? Forget it. Get into the streets. I dont care if there are only 100 to 200 people. If every single one of us goes to jail for a few hours or a night or two, who cares!? People are dying. People are losing their freedoms. People in other countries are fighting and dying in their struggles to obtain freedoms and rights. This capitalist system has everyone working to hard to rise to the top or in fear of getting introuble from their boss. It really seems so petty when throughout history millions have died and suffered for True freedom. This country makes me sick. The people in it make me sick. I make myself sick. We want more yet we will do nothing. I dont care who is more of an "activist" than the other. That crap doesnt matter. What matters is people start doing something. No matter who you are or what you are doing in activism, you can do more. You can always do more.

When I was a little kid I used to be so thankful that I was born in America. I was so glad to peace and freedom. Now that I have gotton older, learned a lot more about the world and the history of it, I am ashamed to be apart of this world rot. There are millions of good hearted people here. But this apathy and settling for compromise when people around the world are dying and when we are losing the freedoms in this country that people hold so dear to their hearts. We are a joke and the world knows it.

I see bumper stickers and banners on the internet all the time that say "Dont Hate Americans, Hate Our Government." What a load of crap. Yes, our government is much to blame, but I say we are even more to blame for allowing all of this to happen. We are to blame for not doing something about it now that it is happening. I dont want to see another person die, but not for once second can I honestly sit here and think that when the world comes down on the United States for years and years of oppression and murder that we deserve an ounce of mercy.

The day we can unite and get off our asses and work harder and harder everyday no matter who you are or your beliefs, despite our indifferences, WHICH SHOULD BE STARTING YESTERDAY, will be the day that I respect this country and the people in it. It will be the day that the world might show its mercy. It will be the day we deserve it. It will be the day that I will respect myself.

On an ending note... I dont care who you are or what views you have on past revolutions that were nonviolent or violent, such as the Cuban Revolution, the Zapatista, the riots in France, and a million others. Violent or not, AT LEAST THEY ACTUALLY HAD THE BALLS TO STAND UP AND FIGHT FOR WHAT THEY BELIEVED IN.

First off, all of the thousands of stupid small pocket organizations


There are not thousands of stupid organizations. They are all essentially united. Did you see anyone publically trying to undermine the Mach 19th anti-war rally? No... there were over 100 organizations sponsoring that march. After the fact, when people realize it was too small and too timid to effect change, there was frustration expressed and criticism offered and some of it just, but the national turnout is not an organizational problem.

People across the country are trying. There are just not many white liberals who care enough to get off their asses and do something. If you do not have a population ready to act, all the organizing in the world amounts to not much. The Latino organizers are using the same basic methods. The result is different because Latinos are ready to mobilize, not because they got some amazing organizers who have figured out how to get disinterested people off their ass.

White America is not anti-war. Polls lie because talk is cheap. When there is war, someone who is anti-war does something. Those who say they are anti-war or anti this war but do little to nothing, find war acceptable. Actions speak far louder than words. According to the polls, 50% of the country now opposes the war. That is 150,000,000 people. 150 Million. 1% of that is 1.5 million. There were at best 150,000 on the street nationally on March 19th. That is 1/10th of 1% which is nothing. Of that estimated 150,000 90% went back to business as usual just the next day. That means nationally, there are about 15,000 people ready to actually put some work into it. So you see those people doing various work of education, protest, and so on, while the rest of White America just does not care. This is the actual situation at hand.

I stand corrected. you make a very valid point.

Demonstrations in the street can achieve many things, but the main ones are:

1) Show the numbers, show the solidarity. (to those in power so they make different decisions)

2) Stop the flow of traffic and commerce and business as usual (so the media will cover your issue or the meeting planned for your city will fail - WTO, GATT, FTAA, etc, and the powerful will make different decisions)

3) Hearten the faithful that they are not alone, and give them a relatively safe, active thing to do so they can move on to more direct actions. (so they can knock over the whole stupid game)

So if a demo can do those things, what do they often fail to do? They often fail to move to the next steps, since the folks who organize them rarely know what the next steps should be. When this is not the case, they are often afraid to SAY what the next steps should be. Someone will shout them down if they do, after all. We don't want the movement to become criminalized, suppressed, etc. We don't want to say criminal conspiracy stuff in public. We don't want to alienate anyone (except those who demand that we have results, that is...)

Well guess what? It is not legal to end the war.

That's right, it is not legal to end the war.

If we hit upon a legal and effective strategy, they will quickly make it illegal. So it is time to come out (en masse, if we want to minimize the dangers) and occupy points of strategic importance until the wars stop. Not just Iraq, but the racist wars on (some) drugs, the wars on organized labor globally, etc. Iran, Columbia, Kosovo, Central America, etc etc etc. You set the agenda, it's your planet - not just mine.

These targets can be ports, highways, military bases, powerplants, factories which produce critical equipment or supplies, or any number of targets you have a better bead on than I do. Flood them with bodies, flood them with your neighbors, have a bar-B-Q, have a street party on the highway, have a fair on the factory floor. Don't do symbolism anymore, do direct action mass gathering shutdowns of major keys to shipping the war over there. Bring it home, and win it here.

Yes, they will attack us (hello, they already ARE...). Yes, they will put some of us in jail and some of us will be killed. Again, hello. Welcome to Earth, which is owned by the murderous and protected by the cowardice. If you want to overturn that, you will have to face your mortality someday.

The question is not whether you will die. You will. We all do.

The question is not when you will die. No one knows that but suicides and executed prisoners.

The question is whether you will live, and what you will live for. Well? What will you live for?
If you want to live for peace, risk dying for it. If you won't risk death for peace, you have already traded your life for war. You're just sleepwalking to your appointment with the morgue.

Now turn off this box and go for a walk with your best friend. You have something to ask her.

Tom Hastings, Will Seamon, Todd Gitlin, Um Cindy Sheenans fan club. When leaders among the peace community chastize people like Mumia Abu Jamal, or Leonard Peltier for bearing arms and claim that the state was justified in imprisoning them for life for bearing arms- I think "they're" what's wrong with the peace movement. (See oregon peace worker) When every appeal crys shut up and listen to your soccer mom; is it any wonder we don't listen? What if your mom didn't do soccer mom? What if she worked full time, while you went to school?
I think that most mainstream peace organizers are working for the democratic party, to suck the waking breath from any kind of movement for change. Reform isn't change when the faces stay the same. They are where legetimacy begins and ends. They have the backing of the institutions, if you argue with them you'll find out soon enough. So there it is, they're given the leway to "lead." The truth is, it will only take so long before people figure out this is a merry go round. Wondering where the "resistance" is? I think folks are tired of being tokenized. I think that when a genuine degree of indignation rises from the fact that we're bieng led lock step back into the "democrat's corral" folks will return. Hell, v is for vendetta is the number one movie in America right now. If that ain't a gauge of public sentiment I don't know what is.

"Hell, v is for vendetta is the number one movie in America right now. If that ain't a gauge of public sentiment I don't know what is."

Truly, but let us remember that the climax of that movie is that the TeeVee People crawl out to see a live show that none of them helped to create, or facilitate, or do anything other than watch. It's nice that V gives Evie the choice of whether or not, but he does not give her the choice of HOW, just Whether Or Not. That's another old trick - sell you the discharge of your hopes and fears, in a package which is essentially just passive consumption of a dream written by someone else. And make money for the Wurlitzer while you consume that dream.

Write your own movie. Then project it on your downtown, not the local cineplex. Use flames instead of light, or performances instead of celluloid. That's a revolution. Or at least a beginning.

- Number 5