portland independent media center  
images audio video
newswire article commentary oregon & cascadia

political theory

Cascadia For the Rest of Us

Some questions to the bases.
Hi, I am a total advocate of Cascadian independence, but I don't live in Eugene or Portland, though I've spent quality time in both cities. I've spent most my life, when not traveling in poverty, in rual Oregon. I just wanted to point out, that to a lot of people out here, you are seen as arrogant elitist, and you can't just dismiss this as redneck, reactionary thinking. The working class lives in the small towns, while you work your customer service jobs.
There is no way a real movement can be developed as long as the "movement" is really just a scene for hipsters. Do you think the chaw chewing country boy loves, Bush's great increase in federal goverment? They are smarter then you think, it's mainly religion that puts them against us. How hard could it be to prove the case of Jesus as anarchist, or at least a socialist.
Well, sorry to go ranting, my point is, there will be no mass movemont until we can speak to the mill worker just as well as to the college student. The IWW wasn't built on bike messengers, in the NorthWest it was built on loggers. The fringe may be fun, but it's no revolution. The babyboomers proved that. Just a thought, thanks.

Cascadia is a bioregion not just suburbia and the urban centers 31.Jan.2006 00:59

Ecotopian Yeti

I 100% understand the concern... I have talked in the past to other Cascadians that "Cascadianism" could easily be seen as a Portland or Eugene or even Seattle thing. Even Cascadians in British Columbia could feel isolated because of the Cascadian Portlanders pushing for the cause. My only solution is we need to focus on our farming, ranching, fishing, tourism and forestry communities by supporting "local economies"... basically empowering the rural communities through Cascadianism.

Cascadian bioregionalism 31.Jan.2006 02:55

Ecotopian Yeti

it is ironic in the fact that Cascadianism should be a rural movement.

Would suggest that rural people join in the dialogue at  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cascadian_Bioregionalism

what is the white and blue colors about? 31.Jan.2006 02:55


i don't understand what white and blue represent.

the tricolor (blue, white and green) flag of Cascadia or simply the "Doug" 31.Jan.2006 06:31

Ecotopian Yeti

the blue is for the Pacific, the sky when you can see it and distant mountains

white is for the snows, clouds and snow peaks

the green is for the forests and fields

actually 31.Jan.2006 07:20


peope in rural areas are typically the last 'revolutionary' people. This is because they often own enough land to gain a certain level of independence from the system. Anyways, Capitalism has worked its magic across the globe, forcing those in the towns off their land- its no coincidence that most of the worlds population is fleeing to urban centers. The cities are where those who have nothing dwell; these are the true proletariat.

what "Cascadianism" must always address 31.Jan.2006 10:25


"Cascadianism" must bring up issues that equally affects rural and urban communities alike. Issues like NAFTA, CAFTA, states rights versus federal mandates, decentralization, dependancy on petroleum, peak oil, Oil-Wars, rural sustainable infrastructure, suburban sprawl, medical shortages, appropriate education funding, diversity of local rural economies, protection of prime agricultural lands, protection from corporate explotation and so much more.

Just like IndyMedia, Cascadia is us... 31.Jan.2006 11:24

Pravda or Consequences

To workingclassanarchist?

Nobody owns Cascadia. Regardless of where people live, we need to change the paradigm that controls us now.

The real elitists are in corporate boardrooms and political chambers. You know that won't invite us.

Because the concentration of activity is generally in the urban areas, it would seem that city dwellers don't care about the rest of the community. Not so.

Thanks to the Internet, we can all share our thoughts as to what will work, especially for those that traditionally have no voice but feel the impacts of someone else's decision.

If folks in Pendelton, Bend, Burns, K Falls, etc. want to organize an event, make an announcement here at PDX IndyMedia (and the others listed) and you might be surprised at who shows up (besides the cops).

Good Luck.

cascadian workers have no land thus no say 31.Jan.2006 11:45

oregon rednek

Yes, your are right wrkin clas anrcist. At this point the rural worker cascadian have the majority of families living in the deepest poverty. Many of them work in very dangerous natural resource extraction jobs because they don't have a choice when it comes to attaining a decent wage to support their familes. I look at millworkers and loggers (Jippo) who work and die for companies like Roseburg Forest Products, Guistina, Hampton, Freres, Dr Johnson, etc. and even Weyerhueser. The lands that these individual white men own, 900,000+ acres for Ford/RFP, millions of acres for weyerhueser, and millions of acres owned by the other timber barons, all should be owned and managed by the communities who live in those watersheds if cascadia hopes to survive the end of the cheap petroleum economy. Why in the fuck should a handful of white men be allowed to destroy the future of hundreds of thousands of families across Cascadia for their own bloody bank accounts! They have no regard for the future survival of communities, families, ecosystems, salmon, or the way of life in cascadia. Not only are these same timber barons pillaging their(sic) own lands they continue to demand and attain the pillaging of state and federal public lands at the expense of every family and community in the cascadia as well as the entire country. At present the only thing that the enviros have done is temporarily stave them off of the last stands of old growth forest fragments and that may not last especially when all their(sic) lands have become barren of trees or soil to grow any more monocrops. So, we must address this point sooner than later if our bioregion even has a chance of surviving the end of cheap petroleum because these greedy white men are getting their way, destroying the cascadian ecosystems that we all depend, and continue to demand more and more every day. We haven't even touched the issue of automation of mills/logging and poverty.

U R the 1 31.Jan.2006 12:34


No, WCA you're the elitist if you think everyone involved is some homogenous mass. I sure as hell am not a bike messenger, service worker, etc. and neither are mi amigos. And even if some folks are, what's the diff? I can understand your concern but if folks outside of town or in can't see that they're being manipulated there's only so much we can do.

resource extraction tax 31.Jan.2006 14:20

orangenecked toad

hi everybody,

this is the best post in a long time. the point of the post is that the working folks (be they urban, rural, or amphibian) need to reach out and meet each other. i would suggest a call for "cascadia" informational meetings to be officially set up at all the county fairs, flea markets, any point where most folks will go as part of their daily life.

further, i think that redneck is absolutely correct about the oppressive ownership of millions of acres by these resource extraction corporations. those fatcats in boardrooms are swilling their champagne, while men and women are toiling with dangerous machinery night and day. what oregon needs (and all of cascadia needs) is a serious resource extraction tax, which is harsh enough to force the corporations out of the picture. the collective owership by the actual people of cascadia, who benefit from the long term health and sustainability of the resources should be the goal.

to be honest, i think a REAL government working in the people's interest would seize corporate property by eminent domain and turn it over to the collective owership of the people themselves. it is corporate greed that is killing us all... in iraq, in oregon, the world over.

peace to all brothers and sisters, whatever color your necks! get out there and meet up, spit some 'baccy juiced, toast some noble green, and hoist a few pints of golden local brews. you have only your freedom eternal from corporate slavery to gain!

best wishes, your simple toad.

the fringe vs. the system 31.Jan.2006 16:54

learning fast

I just wanteds to relate to the scensterinm bike messenger comment that- just as it is importnat that some people engage the system and work for change if that's what they feel moved to do-

It is just as integral to have the urban gardener and the chicken peoples and the punks moshing against the antiquated system that they don't see a future for.

Many of the urban trend-setters are at the cutting edge of new paridigms, and its just matter of fact to them. We are the future. Now go stop a saw.

Reaching out to others is vital. 31.Jan.2006 16:57


I know that my experiences working in rural areas have been filled with indocturation(sp). even my father-in-law is having trouble admitting that electing W was a bad idea. He's coming around, slowly. Everything that he was led to beleive is that if someone mentions God, then they should be trusted. He, and many of the people around him followed the pastors advice without question. Questioning would show a lack of faith. If we're going to change anything, we need to shine the light of truth on the big church/business/goverment connection. We need to show rural communities that people like Pat Robertson, W, and the Christian Coalition are the Pharisees of today. Rural communities have the most to lose in this struggle. I own little to no land, have a simple little house and could replace those in short order. If I had a farm, the risk of losing that would be too great, I would need some form of assurance that any transition to Cascadia wouldn't place that in jeopardy. We need to band together and support Cascadian Agroculture, so that they want to support us. Where do you get your groceries? Your building supplies? Any other products that you need? Remember, it's short-sighted to leave the U.S. because of ethical reasons, if we haven't planned on what happens after we leave.

Cascadia United will survive 31.Jan.2006 18:48


. I am a rural Oregonian. I grew up in the mud, and ate rain. I feel like I have been here forever, when I was just a little one. I would wake up with my family, and(being the "girl") I would slap together some sandwhiches and hop in the crew cab. Drive an hour or so, through the darkness and fog. Arrive at a mountain top, and begin our days work. I knew that our family survived as a whole, if I wasn't there to pull my weight (however small my job was) my dad would fall behind in his work, or my brother, or uncle. I grew up on timber money, I've been working for my room and board since I was 5. I have been all over oregon, and got to know the land with all of my heart. That is something folks don't always recognize about loggers, you spend your whole day in the woods, the quiet, the wild. You become connected and in love.
Loggers vs. activists (can you actually blame the workin man) most of these folks I had the experience to work with are war veterans, social and pshycologically disfunctional, emotional tierd and hangin on fightin for the chance to be a woodsman a mountain man. Livin the real life close to the earth.... then you are confronted by (not saying all) partially educated folks on the matter, who have too many emotions streaming and screaming from them. I experienced a logger environmentalist clash when I was 9, west of portland, the men were threatening to shoot them, and I was scared, I wanted shots fierd. Maybe not at them, but just to make them leave and quit yelling, pleading. I did not like environmentalists, they were rude, dirty(not saying I wasn't, but I was workin), and targetted me. I don't know if any old activists will read this but if you are one of those humans who yelled at a young girl settin chokers, I want you to know that was un called for and I hope a child is never spokin to again like that from anyone.now that is off my chest....
Most of us rural folks who log, are so mad,at these big corporate loggin companies who are takin everything, all the jobs, the water, the trees, the educational money. Clear cuts reach down into all mill towns, not like it use to be. We smoke screened ourselves so we could continue to happily go on. Now all we get to look at is weyerehauser's huge mill, full of our trees, goin in their pocket, out of state, across the world. We have been abandoned. The jobs are few, unless you give in and contract for a bigger corporation(not what I did)or just go full fledge into their structure and become one of the enemies.
Please, Please, Please do not go after small timber companies and mills. They at least care about their own home, and employ the towns people. Timber and Agriculture our main economy, where are all the old companies? Who ran them out? We did, support Oregonians, buy from us, fund us, and help one another. The only way we can get corporate rule out of here, is to show them we don't need them. It'll take a lot of work, and a lot of workers. Together we can form a Cascadian economy who refuses to mindlessly consume others resources. What do you really need in life? Water, Food, Shelter, Warmth, we have all of that in our region. No need to look anywhere else.

just to put this out there people can get grant money for growing seed crops for oil. This is detrimental, please do not allow cascadia to be over run by GE rape seed (conola) If you have the resources check out what Denmark has been doin, and try to grow as much organic heirloom rapeseed, and try to convince big Corporate farms to do the same.

agree with "me" 01.Feb.2006 00:35

Ecotopian Yeti

the small farmer and lumber families are not to blame for the mass destruction of Cascadia. Most of these people (including my own aunts, uncles and cousins) hate the fact they have little option when it comes to forestry because some "high muckymucks" in Wyerhauser deside they want to make more profit. I have seen my uncles dread cutting a forest, but feel locked in a situation where they want to fund the education of their children so as to get out of the industry. We need to help the rural population have more options and empowerment from the greedy busnessmen who make the decisions. Cascadianism depends on all Cascadians to re-examine the power structure we are in and to question a system of explotation on many levels.

oh whatever 01.Feb.2006 01:05

deal with it

If you can dismiss my pullin'-it-out-of-my-ass perception of rural hicks as self-righteous, ignorant fools as "arrogant elitism," then I can certainly dismiss their perception of "me" (as if any of them have ever met me) as an "arrogant elitist" as redneck reactionary thinking.

The people you're talking about don't have any intrinsic opinion about the proper or correct size of government. During the '80s they parroted the Republican line about reducing the size of government because that doctrine was mixed together with the argument they really do care about, the argument that cities are evil and full of degenerate hated liberals.

Nothing we do is going to make these people like us. You're there, you're in a position to create and build a rural secessionist movement. We can't help you. It's not our job. Go for it.

"speak to the mill worker" 01.Feb.2006 01:14


Weyerhauser and Bush do that. Mill workers are aren't dummies. They recognize authoritarian bastards when they are spoken to.

Listen a while. Then speak with.

environmentalists and local timber families 01.Feb.2006 05:54


Listen, there is no reason for environmentalists and families working within the environment should be at odds. The problem is simple, big companies like Weyerhauser profit off the lumber worker and off the generated conflict between environmentalists and rural workers. Both groups as well as fishing, farming and even ranching families should be defining their basic needs and wants. All really want empowerment (voice) and respect (acknowlegdement of their insights) about the landscape we all love. The real problem is the big corporations manipulating so as to squeeze more money out of their colonies. Want to see change for creating a Free Cascadia then all groups involved need to address basic issues and realize its corporate imperialism that is the real source of the problems.

Speak WITH the Microserfs 01.Feb.2006 16:49

Hillbilly Anarchist

Yers, we should speak with our fellow workers - at the mill, in the forest, or in the office. I speak with my fellow wildland firefighters. . .

The mills in rural Oregon are closing, soon little will be left as they move overseas - Indonesia and China our the international "sacrifice zones". Service sector employment is taking over. I know some one who went from being a faller (a logger who made of $20 an hour) to being a greeter at Wallmart (making min. wage). Call centers are rapidly replacing the mills. Simultaniously, call centers are also being outsourced.

Rural Oregon has a high rate of "official unemployment" - the amount of people who are COLLECTING unemployment checks. The rate of real unemployment - the amount of people unemployed - is much higher as is the number of temp-slaves.

Our land should be reclaimed from the lumber companies.

getting the message out 02.Feb.2006 00:41


so with the rural economies in decline and rural disenfranchisement growing through out Cascadia, then we need to act fast in spreading Cascadianism in rural Cascadia. Remember it was NAFTA that launched the Zapatista movement in rural Chiapas. We need awaken Cascadians to start talking of globalization, outsourcing, CAFTA, genetically modified food and forests, unemployment, lack of practical education and the infrastructure to keep a small community sustainable and healthy.

a bunch of beautiful bullshit 02.Feb.2006 12:27

hippie syndicalist

a couple things

like E. Yeti mentioned, the people in different areas of "Cascadia" feel un represented, the folks in BC generally dont want to leave Canada to be part of some new country with Oregon and Washington and NoCal. i agree with them. if a cascadian movement is gonna succeed it gotta be about a loose federation of autonomous regions tied together in decisions only when those decisions really impact the other groups. like cascadian economy and defense (a few other things too im sure). also i think theres way too much emphasis on this flag stuff, why do we need a flag again? to get people to thoughtlessly fall in line behind something which stands for itself and not a single living thing? i think it turns alot of people off from the idea of cascadia cause they dont want reform, they dont want the revolutionary states of cascadia, they want freedom. to paraphrase a favorite lyric "i dream of a day when all the flags are black, and each one come packaged with its very own match." Doug was right on when hes pointing out how important inclusive discussion is to making this cascadia thing, or anything, happen. discussion about how we organize society is called politics, and though weve been raised in this environment of exclusive politics by representatives, we need inclusive politics where decision affecting people are made by those people without excluding the perfectly valid contributions out of ignorance elitism and fear.

The post by "me" is fucking brilliant. thank you so much for throwing it out there. we need logging, weve always had logging and the problem is with the corporations and the misdirected passion of "environmentalists." i look at it from this: does this nice world we want to live in have an economy? of course! everything, ecosystems, the universe has an economy. economy is just the system of how we share/distribute the stuff we need to survive. like politics, weve been raised in this environment where economics doesnt share resources very well. we need to build up an economy of solidarity between communities, human and otherwise, based on communication. for me, this economy has as its goal not the accumulation of wealth, but creating ever more opportunities for everything to pursue its potential. this economy has got logging but not clear cuts, it doesnt have land ownership beyond the way a tree "owns" the land it uses. im also very in touch with the reality and neccessity of death in ecology, and in every economy. if we try to isolate our human societies from ecological truths like death and the consumption of some things by other things, we will always have this anti-ecological trend in out society. to make this happen we need to start associating our bussinesses and our labor and our wealth to create something new. we need to share the resources we gain from this association to involve more people and more systems into this ecosocial economy until we have the economic and social strength, the power, to stand on our own feet. no movement can get very far if it cant feed and house itself, if it depends on its "enemy" to do those things for it. and of course as we build up our social power by sticking together and working for each other, as we build our economic power by supporting each other's needs and helping each other to go after our dreams, we will find ourselves with more and more political power. oppression can only exist so long as the oppressed have less power than the oppressors. (otherwise they would leave or overthrow it.)

we need builders who source direct from loggers who leave the forest richer in biodiverstiy than they found it. we need food markets distributing the produce grown in the communities they are located in. we need a money lending system (like Radical Routes in England) that loans interest free to people trying to build up the autonomous economy. we need community supported healthcare clinics. and all of it worker owned! we need a cascadian syndicate working together to make our dreams of freedom come true. there are alot of burned out forest defenders who know the trees wont stop getting cut til humans stop using wood. what would it look like to have these people working on organizing an economy for regenerative forest product operations, working together with loggers and urban residents?

as a side note, i think building this power and this kind of society/economy is the only way our region will survive energy decline/peak oil with being resource extracted to death, and its also the only way we want to come out the other end of this global shift. whoever survives the transition and has power will be at the table deciding what this next age of human/earth life we look like. the old nations and aristocracies are gathering up what they need to come out the other side with their militaries, lands, and dependent people intact. weve got to come through with autonomous communities full of social wealth intact. for the intellectuals out there, i guess you could call it ecosocial democratic libertarian socialism. good luck to us all.

British Columbian Cascadia.. hippie syndicalist 02.Feb.2006 14:22

Ecotopian Yeti

"the folks in BC generally dont want to leave Canada to be part of some new country with Oregon and Washington and NoCal."

Well.. generally I would say "yup" over a decade ago, but just watch "our" stagnet view of the Great White North as a bastion of liberal socialism is not so stagnet nor is Canada so homogenius politically, socially and economically. I have met Cascadians from the Canadian province who feel totally disenfranchised by the East Coasters that control the political areana and ignore the needs and wants of British Columbia. I personally am predicting that there will be a growing identification with Cascadianism over several things:

as CAFTA becomes reality

as Albertian conservatives poll the country as a whole a litle right and as the Liberal Party becomes more and more East Coast and as the New Democrats with the Greens rise in popularity in Pacific Canada. Eventually we could see even more disenfranchisement about the whole Canadian system as regions start favoring their own political parties like what we already see in Quebec with the Bloc Quebecois (Quebec Liberal party) not working with the national Liberal party.

Here is an article about the recent Canadian elections in British Columbia:

What's the Matter with Canada?
Oh, Canada ... The country that prides itself as the social-policy
soul-mate of Scandinavia--with universal health care, progressive
drug policies, gay marriage, and yes, even legalized swingers'
clubs, of late--has elected as its leader a former oil-and-gas man
from Alberta, the Canadian equivalent of Texas. Huh?

On Monday, Canada's Conservative Party won the majority of seats in
parliament, ousting the once-formidable Liberal Party from power for
the first time in 13 years. Paul Martin, who became prime minister
in 2004, resigned as head of the Liberal Party.

What's an American Cascadian to think?

Well, Canada has four major political parties (the Liberal Party,
the Conservative Party, the New Democratic Party and the Bloc
Quebecois), so what may look like a sudden and unexpected upheaval
is actually a more nuanced election than you typically get in the
United States. Mix in the biggest political corruption investigation
in years (the "sponsorship scandal," which involved widespread
mishandling of a public fund used to promote federalism over
separatism in Quebec), and you have a race that the incumbent
Liberal government was itching to lose.

Upon closer inspection, the vote was tight, and the Conservatives,
or the Tories as they're known north of the border, are left with a
minority government--only 124 out of 308 seats in parliament--which
means they have to reach out to other parties and form a coalition
to actually govern. In fact, they only received 36.3 percent of the
popular vote.

A mandate it ain't.

And in Canada's three biggest cities--Toronto, Montreal and
Vancouver--it was a shut out. The Conservative Party won zero seats.

In British Columbia, there was a certifiable progressive resurgence.
The New Democrat Party (NDP), social democrats to the left of the
Liberals, doubled their seats, largely through scrappy, narrow
victories in diverse metropolitan neighborhoods like Vancouver's
Kingsway. (This follows strong gains for the NDP in the provincial
election last May, when the NDP recovered from the total
annihilation of 2001, which left them with a pathetic one seat in
BC's legislative assembly. In the May 2005 provincial election, many
voters were reacting to the sweeping government cutbacks provincial
leader Gordon Campbell unleashed on the province after he became
premier in 2001.)

The Tories lost BC seats, even in rural regions dominated by
resource industries. Areas like Northern Vancouver Island, the
Southern Interior, and the North all elected NDP candidates.

How will the election affect environmental policy?

Campbell is still the premier of British Columbia, and most land-use
planning decisions will be decided on his watch.

But with only 21 more seats than the Liberals, the Conservative
party is in no position to throw out Kyoto. Many Canadians are proud
of the leadership role their country has played in finding global
solutions to climate change, including hosting the Montreal
conference last November.

One hot BC issue is the longstanding federal moratorium on oil-and-
gas drilling off the BC coast. The NDP incumbent 33-year-old Nathan
Cullen, won out over Conservative Party candidate Mike Scott, who
was campaigning on the promise to lift the moratorium.

Cullen campaigned to safeguard the coast from drilling, strengthen
aboriginal rights and title, and battle the encroachment of fish
farms. The area he represents as a member of parliament is no
progressive oasis. Stretching from the Queen Charlotte Islands all
the way to Fort St. John, it's full of cash-strapped communities and
forests decimated by Asian pine beetles.

Perhaps the most interesting outcome of the Canadian election is the
emergence of Liberal star Michael Ignatieff. This ex-pat--a Harvard
professor, frequent contributor to the New York Times Magazine and
human rights activist--returned to Ontario at the start of this
eight-week campaign to run for office and clean up the Liberals. He
won a seat in parliament, and he's now vying for party leader. Some
have crowned him the Liberals' new philosopher-king, and, perhaps,
Canada's future prime minister.

Posted by Kristin Kolb-Angelbeck

found at

flags, colors and other memes 02.Feb.2006 14:41

Ecotopian Yeti

Well flags, colors (yes those ribbons I hate), music and even hand gestures have been discovered to be perfect for creating group identity. If you really want a revolution then basically this is how you get the collective memes out. "Black" flags will only discourage or cause even a reaction to most rural or traditionally conservative "folk" (who have lots of reasons to be in revolt against the current system). The Doug Flag (or Cascadian Flag) draws on many already existing symbols of Cascadia for example Washington State as the "Evergreen State" the Oregon license plate with the "Doug" at the center, the Redwoods of Northern California as well as other state and even province fame for their conifer trees. If you take any basic advertisement course the basic rule is if you repeat something seven times to a potential customer it tends to stick in their minds.

Gene Sharp (who has been credited for inspiring various Color Revolutions) repeatedly has talked of the display of a peoples' flag and colors as a means to create a sense of group identity and momentum of the democratic movement.

Here is an example of a Color Revolution that used Sharp's suggestion of flags adn colors to build community and democratic demands for change:

'The National Endowment for Democracy, which this fiscal year got $60 million from the U.S. Congress, says it has decided to stop funding a
Kyrgyz NGO called Civil Society Against Corruption because of its
pronounced opposition bent. The Civil Society, which in 2003 received a
$25,000 NED grant, is headed by Tolekan Ismailova, a veteran Kyrgyz
human-rights campaigner and opposition activist. Earlier this month, she
organized the local translation and distribution of a 1993 revolutionary
manual used in Serbia, Ukraine and Georgia. The manual, "From Dictatorship to Democracy," was written by Gene Sharp, a political scientist and senior scholar at the Albert Einstein Institution in Boston. It includes tips on nonviolent resistance -- such as "display of flags and symbolic colors" -- and civil disobedience.'

found at
Tools for a Revolution

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cascadian_Bioregionalism 02.Feb.2006 15:23

Ecotopian Yeti

What next? An idea or 2. 02.Feb.2006 15:58

oregon rednek

This a good start on dialogue on this subject/goal but we need to keep it going and growing. Is there a way that this dialogue can continue? When this discussion scrolls over can we continue to respond to others and post? Will people continue to do this? OR Do we need some sort of new site to keep it going? I like the fact that people can post things here anonymously if they want. Regarding how we make the nuts and bolts work: ( and this may be too detailed at this time but I am going to throw it out there.) Watershed Spokescouncils (minus infiltrators, disrupters, or certifiable combatants). My two bits would be to organize a movement watershed by watershed, or river by river, if you will. Each river watershed spokescouncil would decide what sort of management and harvesting activities (salmon and fiber) would be done year by year based on what the needs of the community/local economy were and health of the watershed. For example, the Clackamas watershed would have a spokescouncil, which was made up of reps (those who resided in them) from smaller watersheds (smaller rivers and streams) inside the Clackamas drainage. They would meet every month or whatever and make decisions. Surely, there are very large watersheds in much of Cascadia (Willamette or Columbia), which could be affected by decisions made in smaller watersheds, so there would be an overarching spokescouncil (without veto power?) to share in the decision making and/or to share new data (salmon runs, harvest levels, problems identified) or ideas to the whole. perhaps a watershed by watershed approach would be a good place to start organizing/outreaching to those not in your social/economic bubble but who reside in the same watershed? anyway, let's keep it going.

responding 02.Feb.2006 17:29

hippie syndicalist

i think using watersheds as a geopolitical unit is a good place to start, but its also about communities and the "non-human" element. i favor the new nomination for a new summit of representatives, "soviet" approach. but i really think most stuff can be decided and implemented before we ever need representatives or consideration by groups of people so large as to require representation.

and to e yeti, please read the second half of the paraphrase/quote. or ill just be explicit FUCK FLAGS! why do we need a flag? do we want a society built and forever reflecting the kinds of social relationships created and facilitated by flags? i sure as hell dont. and where does an idea for ONE flag or even ONE theme for a flag come from? is it a consensus process involving everyone "represented" constantly updated pending births and deaths. my flag is the sky and the trees and the waters, it aint made of fabric. whoa, getting carried away.

as for most ppl in BC not wanting to be aligned with the northwestern states, thats coming from conversations with ppl in BC and frankly i dont blame them and while i have solidarity with those in BC working towards autonomy but i will fight against a movement to weld any more land into a cage of human ownership. nations are an intrinsicly ecocidal social group because they premise human concerns as most important and the land as inanimate. as for free trade agreement and unpopular governments, id say its a long shot to declare the ppl will be motivated to join the US because they just (popularly) elected a conservative government. yeah, lets join the country governed by a fascist because we just elected a conservative.

id appreciate some feedback furthering the dialectic of non trivial points rather than attacks on my personal feelings on flags or the oppinion of people living in another country. fer fucks sake theres alot weve got to do locally before discussing how we'll interact with people a multi weeks walk away (how connected will BC and NoCal be in ecotopia? more or less than france and spain in say 1400 CE? and anyone worth talking to in BC will be too busy organizing real on the ground infrastructure to be daydreaming about tomarrows grand political alliances and organizations that have little opportunity for the great mass to participate in much more than being "polled" about which of two options they are less likely to go into open revolt against when implemented. so what are you doing, e yeti, to build the infrastructure of tomarrow? cause i think thats where the job at hand is.

to hippie syndicalist 03.Feb.2006 02:13

Ecotopian Yeti

I do not think there was any personal attacks about you in regards to flags...actually by what you have written I would assume we would agree on alot of stuff. I just posted that some like Gene Sharp have discovered that to get a movement really going such banal symbols are actually key. I would also suggest exploring these three online free books on memes:

 http://depts.washington.edu/gcp/ pdf/culturejamsandmemewarfare.pdf
 http://maineindymedia.org/usermedia/ application/1/meme_warfare_free.pdf

As for infrastructure.. this is where groups focused on permaculture, peak oil, sustainablity, FreeSkools, cooperatives, food-not-lawns and other "alterntive to empire" groups come in. These groups are really the foundation of a future bioregional infrastructure in Cascadia. Unlike just groups that think protesting and marching will do something the groups doing the ground breaking are the groups actually building communities that will survive and flurish after either the petroleum age or the divorce from empire. Protesting and marches have their places and they are important for visually seeing others who do not agree with the current systems, but when it comes to surviving after the Empire (be it corporate or federal) it will be those groups that implimented innovative and alternative systems that will save our asses.

word up e yeti 03.Feb.2006 17:51

hippie synidcalist

glad to see were on the same page. i was am feeling like more emph on those groups in the cascadian movement and more emph on uniting those groups. flags certainly work to get movemnts going, but are they the only way, or more my objection, do they yeild an activated movement *with the characteristics of diversity and autonomy* were working for. it might be harder without a flag, but it might be worth it in the long run. im not against flags or other public representations of goals, but against *one* flag representing a diverse group. seems like theres no argument, lets get/keep working.

Yeah but.... 03.Feb.2006 21:25

oregon rednek

I agree Yeti about the usefulness of the hands on work that permaculture folks are doing but lets face it, the large cities of Cascadia are not going to be supportable no matter how many folks on the fringe are doing permaculture when cheap oil disappears. To support these places, Portland, Seattle, etc..., large scale agriculture would have to be practiced to support them and them alone as well as large scale infrastucture and transportation needs.

I believe the only communities that will be sustained and most sustainable in the long run will be those that have entire functional watersheds with a few hundred or few thousand families in them each, with salmon, agriculture/permaculture, hunting and gathering as well as some infrastructure/transportation to move goods and services short distances.

The movement needs to make people outside our movements realize that sort of scenario and the sooner we/they start creating infrastructure to prepare for the "end of cheap oil" reality the better off all of Cascadia and its ecosystems will be.

Regarding Flags: If it somehow bring people together in the short run then I am for it but if it just pushes others "not in camp" away then lets be not force a flag on anyone.

Oregon Redneck and Hippie Synidcalist 04.Feb.2006 15:17

Ecotopian Yeti

Oregon Redneck, again I 200% agree the current style of cities we have inhereted are not sustainable once cheap light sweet crude is gone (they are even now not sustainable nor ever were) and generally most of us know or will learn that the consumeristic instant gratification society is doomed. I do think we will have to have a total cultural revolution if we are to survive the declining side of the oil consumption Bell curve. Our inhereted concept of entitlement to 24 hour ease and shopping out of season will come to an end. We should have been ploughing under those hidious suburbs, strip malls, post modern multiplex cinemas, "shacks of unaffordable dreams" and all the parking lots years ago so we would have by this time had balanced ecological systems where agriculture and wildlife would have been healthy interactive communities and systems dependant on eachother. We are now stuck facing this emerging crises the hard way. We will have lots of trauma, maybe (mostlikely) die-off, collapses of eco-systems, hystaria when it happens, nationalism, racism (we now see the SkinHeads and Neo-Nazis trying to get again a foothold in Cascadia), and all the other "-isms" of hate so as to blame anyone else except "I" the denied consumer that "I" was to blame for "my" consumption and demands that "I" pretend "I" was entitled to. My goal is simply to lessen this disasterous event as possible and to set into motion a new paradigm that Cascadia will be the model of.

Hippie Synidcalist, the Doug or Cascadian flag is only for short term (a decade maybe) to unite people. Though I designed that flag I also believe that symbols are just symbols. The long term goal is simple: Respect, Reverence and Responsablity to Mother Earth/Mother Nature and all. So yes it is a short term goal to get people awaken and to bring them together. Even an independant Cascadia is simply just a platform to create a global paradigm shift that we MUST re-examine our relationship to all the systems we were born into and to re-evaluate even ourselves as groups and individuals.

I enjoy our conversations hippie synidcalist and oregon redneck, but as this post slides into the ether of time I think we should find a more stable thread or better join my forum (yes it has the Cascadian flag on it):