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True Cop Confessions

In a recent posting, we heard from "I was there" who claimed to be one of the cops who shot and killed Fouad Kaady:  http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2005/11/328137.shtml
This got me to thinking: What if we had a truly informative exchange with cops (reformed or otherwise) who feel the need to purge their guilt?
Would it not be great, if Indy could become such a forum? I mean, in the afformentioned string, CatWoman succeeded in hitting the nail on the head several times, pointing out that "I was there" was in real need of therapy of some sort, that perhaps recognizing and confessing to his mistake might be the doorway to real healing.

As a former cop, with many years of high stress experience, I do understand the need for the officer to cover his ass with bland statements like "I would do it again," and to protect his ego and his job by creating some imaginary bogey man with the strength of ten, to somehow justify the killing. I feel his pain. I have been very close to his shoes a number of times. Fortunately for me, I chose the "protect" part of my oath over the self preserving need to kill all threats. When I think of the number of persons I could have killed, I am very glad that I no longer am faced with the challenge that these guys face.

I also understand the need for all cops (this includes DAs and any cop wannabes) to "circle the wagons" when one of their own is threatenned. This is the reason that DAs and their stepchild the grand jury are of no use when it comes to investigation of murder by cop.

This makes it doubly important for the killers, who are being reinforced by the system, to recognize that in the end, they must be able to live with themselves. To do this, they must recognize the mistake, face it, face the possible loss of their livelihoods, or face the loss of their soul. The soul will, in the long run, be much more important to the quality of their future life.

Finally, "I was there," so was I. Being "there" does not excuse your crime.

I have also reviewed all of the attempts to marginalize the victim which your managers call "incident reports" ( a truly sorry lot of reports, I might add), and I call foul! That you are unwilling, or unable, to admit to your sins, is no reason to reach back to the juvenile non-record of your victim, in an attempt to bury your mistake in some imaginary fault of the victim. That is unacceptable. Shame on your handlers!
If only... 11.Nov.2005 23:56

Madam Hatter

Holy Shit LN, you were a cop? I came to this forum only recently and had no idea. My respect and admiration for you have grown even more. Thanks again for an excellent post and keeping this issue alive with meaningful, informative commentary. (And, Catwoman, if you're reading this, thank you for your previous post, as well.)

If only this could be a place for such interaction.... It's definitely something to keep in mind and to work toward. In the meantime, all you thoughtful, outspoken people - keep it up! You're being heard.

what was that about blood from turnips? 12.Nov.2005 01:54

st

Lew, perhaps you could provide additional details about your experience as a police officer; how you long your career was, what your attitude towards lethal force was at the beginning of your career, and how it evolved to where it is now. That might explain why you are not fully supportive of modern police methods.

There's always someone lamenting about the good old days of sentimental, compassionate irish beat cops in 40's hollywood meetings who'd risk his own life to avoid shooting another guy. Another choice bit is what you can see in the show "COPS", where the cop does his little monologue in the car as they're driving to a call. They talk about what a fine community they live in, how they derive such a sense of satisfaction from serving a needy public.

The reality is cops are trained to think it's o.k. to have a Jekyl/Hyde personality. Some in fact only have the Hyde part. The fact is they have very little regard for people like Poot, Kendra Jackson, Vernon Allen, and Fouad Kaady, because most of the public has very little regard for them. They failed to follow commands issued by police, therefore, they are trash. Killing such people, according to trained police conceptual thinking, is a service to the public.

If the public really cared much about these kinds of police shooting victims, they would, by any means neccessary, compel the police to revise procedures used to confront troubled citizens. If the public really cared, all media outlets and local government, the D.A.'s office, would have been flooded with calls and letters demanding change to a more effective, compassionate, and less likely to be lethal method of subduing troubled citizens. How has the public expressed its concern? By leaving the business of protest to the lonely, hard core demonstrators outside the Clackamas Co Courthouse during the grand jury proceedings. A few letters here and there to the big O, and the loyal following here on indy.

Despite what Clak Co D.A. Foote believes, the public still has not been supplied with a thorough investigation and explanation of what happened to Fouad Kaady on September 9th, 2005. He don't want be messin' with no public inquest. So will the public have to wait around for a book by some writer like Ann Rule for the answers?

The idea of kinder, gentler cops is not going to happen. The best that could happen is if they could be supplied with knowledge that would give them the option of another method by which to subdue a suspect if, with appropriate training, they are able to identify that suspect as being incapable of accomodating their instructions and orders. Cops are just little automatons after all...jekyl/hyde automatons. Give them good, effective protocol and they can perform accordingly.


*no, I do not write for the big O, nor am I related to or friends with anyone working there. I am also not a cop, nor have I ever been.

Yep, Holy Shit, I was 12.Nov.2005 09:23

LN

Never really thought anyone would be interested, but ok, since you asked, here is the short version of my cop life, and how my genes led me from that path:
First, because that career was some time ago, I will add or subtract a few years, change a few dates, so that this can not be linked to my tru(?) identity. Let me assure you that the story, unlike the Fouad Kaady story released by police, is very true.
I worked in the San Francisco area during the late sixties, early seventies. Since I was a cop, and not allowed at that time, to consume the local "atmosphere," I can remember most of the sixties and seventies. It was a turbulent time, lots of naked people, lots of drugs, lots of riots. I joined the first department, which I worked for during the academy training and two years beyond, largely because I wanted to be of service to my community, and lacking any medical training or urban background, I thought this would be the way.
Those first years went well. Most of the outfit that I worked with shared my basic philosophy, and excessive use of force was simply not an option. There were weapon situations, which we handled with as much decorum as we could, and nobody got shot while I was there. After about three years, I moved to a larger city, which offered college assistance, as well as an opportunity to develop. There were a couple of shooting incidents at that city, in fact, a close colleague shot and killed a couple of Federal Agents in a drug bust gone bad. Still, excessive force seemed to be a no-no, and for many years it went along these lines. We would meet force with restraint, and citizens with respect.
Then one day, as the city grew, we started recruiting from such far away places as LA. Overnight, the mission seemed to change to one of confrontation. I witnessed one of my fellow officers sucker punching a DUII with a flashlight for no apparent reason, and took the matter up with our supervisor. At about that time, I became an outsider. Never really assumed the anti police stance that I now wear, until, after many incidents such as those named here, and much convincing from someone near and dear to me. I, like most folks, still felt that cops, for the most part, got into the job for the same reasons that I did. Not so sure anymore.
As for the killing thing, in the interest of brevity, I will tell of the lifetime I spent one night with a forty five auto pointed at my head while seven well armed cops were pointing their 9mms back at the suicidal would be victim: This guy, after a fight with his wife, and a few beers, determined to take his life. He did not have the will to actually pull the trigger himself, and so he robbed a local quickie mart. Then, in making his very public "getaway," he strewed all of Apoo's hard earned cash, like Hansel's bread crumbs, along the route from the Quickie Mart to a backyard, where he hid, in the dark, in a tree. I, along with several other officers, began the "search." I had the luck to "find" him, with his gun about four feet from my temple, and pointed at my brain housing. Need I say, the pucker began here? Instantly, there were seven guns in play, and one of them was positioned to terminate my young life! Now, I also had a gun in my hand, and it was pointed back at the guy, and I remember thinking over and over, "Please, nobody shoot. Let's talk this guy down." Now that may have been self preservation talking, but I like to think that it was a higher motivation, that this guy did not need to die. I actually do not recall (much to my wife's distress) ever really giving much thought to my own survival, but to how the hell were we going to get the guy out of the tree, alive. We did manage to talk him down. Now, a few more incidents similar in nature, possibly not quite so drastic, led me to believe that perhaps I lacked the killer instinct that might be necessary in the coming environment. I did not want to become a statistic, so when the right set of circumstances presented itself, I walked out on my meal ticket, which was a major trauma to my entire family. Glad to say, we survived. No cop like a reformed one.
The rest of my working career was spent in law enforcement related fields, but unarmed, and happily so. I worked with mentally ill for a few years, in a psychiatric security position, and again, there were many frightenning experiences, similar to that faced by Bergin and Willard, but being unarmed, I and my associates were forced to deal with blood, urine, feces, and crazy folks. We lived through it.

In reading all this, it sounds entirely too self serving, but brevity forces me to cut to the chase. Hope that answers the pertinent questions. Just a guy, trying to survive in this crazy world, and adjust.

more tasers? more pepper-spray? 12.Nov.2005 10:49

former high-school wrestler

> The best that could happen is if they could be supplied with knowledge that would give them the
> option of another method by which to subdue a suspect if, with appropriate training, they are able to
> identify that suspect as being incapable of accomodating their instructions and orders.

I don't think there's much that could be done to "help" cops who'd rather ice somebody than TOUCH him.

What's the matter, they can't afford two uniforms so they can send the bloody one to the dry cleaners?

More Tazers? I think not 12.Nov.2005 11:33

LN

Adrenaline and Testosterone quickly cancel training and common sense. In the Kaady case, the tazer was used, totally inappropriately, to ramp up the catatonic victim, increasing his pain beyond all human endurance, to a point where, as soon as the pain let up, his flight and fight hormones allowed him to flee to higher ground, where he was somehow perceived to be a threat, and where he was killed.

While the junior officer (who, from the way he dressed himself in all manor of hold out guns, knives, and other such toys, was frightenned going to work) was the first to fire, the very well trained and older (should be wiser) officer quickly joined in the free for all killing spree. The gang mentallity formerly mentioned kicked in, and what should have been a first aid incident resulted in an all out killing.

No more toys. Ethics training, maybe a few good examples of cops having to pay for overreaction, instead of all the ramped up training about the deadly strenght of ten men (SoTM) crazies that are all out there waiting to kill the unprepared officer, maybe this would help.

Of course, as indicated earlier, I grew up in the Lone Ranger, Hopalong Cassidy era, where occasionaly the good guys risked life and limb for principle, where the victim was the one to be protected, and Dirty Harry and his Ilk had not yet come along to muddy up the waters, so maybe there is little hope that we will ever be able to correct the overviolent response of the new age coppers. It is for certain that giving the killers of the unarmed free pass, and even in some cases, medals for killing, will not cure the problem. Run for your life!

that was helpful 12.Nov.2005 13:42

st

Very nicely related account of your career Lew. I remember people talking back then about a cop called Officer Sunshine. Doesn't sound like you...can't remember for sure, but I think he was so called because he joined in the consuming.

When it presents itself, I take the opportunity to observe cops in action; on the street busting the regulars and the not so, and, interacting with citizens in the form of socializing and generally doing pr work. They can be so charming and well mannered. Often when they bust the regulars, (those smart enough not to resist), they're easily going through the motions of cuffing, talking and laughing to the detainee and other officers on hand. Cops seem to love the regulars....it's like the cop and regular are working on the same job.

Cops can be so weird and paranoid too. One time at pio square, I asked a question of a cop. We had a friendly exchange for 30-40 secs. I reached out to shake hands with him at the conclusion and he said "I don't shake hands". It was weird. I'm a regular dressed, clean cut person.

I don't know how to account for that paranoia. It's bred in I believe, from top to bottom. Must start first with the methodologists who figure heavily in selecting the trainers. Then, it's the recruitment and selection process. Cops get conditioned just like the characters in Animal Farm. Enough people tell them they're pigs, better than the rest,and they start to believe it.

A change has to be made from the ground up. A different methodology is in order. Second, you don't hire those who are afraid or resistent to being in touch with those they're obliged to work with. Third, either take away the toys, or review and revise the criteria by which they are permitted to use them. Cops around portland seem to have carte blance to use the spray and the taze anyway they feel like, just for fun.

All the crap and toys officers have to carry around may actually elevate their paranoia. With the vest, the flashlight, the collapsible baton, the mace, the gun, the radio...I've seen cops trying to run with all that shit flying around. It's alarmingly funny. Something that sticks in my mind from one of the big O articles: One of the officers commented in regards to how he came to conclude shooting Fouad Kaady was called for. It went something like "I couldn't remember where my partner had put his shotgun, so....". Swell.

I've personally seen how a person of average to modest build, resisting arrest, can put up a very a very intimidating fight. One officer could have a very hard time taking him down, but 3-4 can do it. Downtown, there always seems to be tons of officers a couple minutes away at most. Psychology is a big part of the resistance on the part of detainees though. When they do resist, I think at times, it's because the officer aggressively challenges them or antagonizes them from the get go. That's just too stupid for modern policing.

Thanks, aw shux 12.Nov.2005 15:18

LN

You HAVE been around for awhile, ST. I appreciate your comments, they are well put, and thoughtful. You are very correct, I think, that the whole system needs shaking out. The equipment is even more inconvenient than you describe, and so much of it serves only to intimidate or to annoy.
As a rookie, I was told that I could count on getting my ass kicked, and maybe even killed, but that my brother officers would break all rules to get there to help me out of a jam. It was a safe feeling. Now, when I read the inventory of the armament that the young officer Bergin was carrying on his person, I shudder. In addition to the required hardware, he had a hold out gun, two knives, among other crap, and with his service gun and tazer and shotgun, what the fuck? He was designed not to reason, but to kill.

Carrying all that crap to a fight gets you into a jam right away, because the first thing you need to do is to be certain that you can protect all of those deadly weapons from any would be perpetrator (which, as you point out, Willard failed to do with the shotgun, which he left on the still running patrol vehicle, while he and Bergin were out performing first and last aid on Kaady).

Many officers, like myself, were unduly influenced by the early radio and t.v. crime stoppers, and tried to be all things to all people. Others fall into the mentality now esposed by our government at large, shoot first, ask for exoneration later.

meanwhile, in Salem 12.Nov.2005 18:08

nobody

Sometimes, the suspect doesn't get shot right away"
Salem, Or. suspect shot, not killed.
The man drove the pickup through the glass double doors of the Marion County Courthouse and hid inside the building for about three hours, setting at least one fire before police tracked him down in a stairwell, police Capt. Jeff Kuhns said.

He was in surgery Saturday afternoon, officials said. His condition and the extent of his injuries were not immediately released.

Authorities identified the man as Christopher Lee Millis, 37, of nearby Keizer.

"We have a few indications of what might have motivated him," said Marion County District Attorney Walt Beglau. He declined to elaborate.

The pursuit started shortly before dawn when a man was spotted pouring a liquid on cars parked at the police department in Keizer and setting them on fire, authorities said.

An officer chased him in her car, but the suspect fired at her, police said. The officer crashed but wasn't injured.

Shortly afterward, police got calls that someone in the area was firing shots at homes. Then, around 6:30 a.m., Salem Police got a call that someone had driven up the concrete steps of the courthouse and crashed through the doors.

Officers from several police departments surrounded the building and attempted to negotiate with the man. They eventually confronted him in the stairwell and shot him.

Millis had set at least one fire inside the courthouse and fired a weapon, Kuhns said. Kuhns said it was unclear whether he was firing at officers outside. A bomb squad was called in as a precaution after Millis was subdued, and police searched the five-story courthouse for possible explosives but didn't immediately find any.

Appreciate your response 12.Nov.2005 19:48

Madam Hatter

Ditto st. Thanks for your response, LN. I appreciate you sharing some of your history here. I'm impressed by your credentials and your philosophy. I think you both make excellent points.

You mentioned things seemed to turn around in your department when they began recruiting from places like LA, etc. Were those people already officers transferring in from other depts., or were they new recruits? Was it a harsher dept. mentality that was imported or just perhaps folks from more violent areas that were used to that? I'm curious because I've been wondering when the "shoot to kill" mentality became the norm, rather than the exception, and why.

I'm a little bit younger than it sounds like you are, but I remember when police would shoot to disarm or disable someone from fleeing (i.e., shoot them in the arm or leg). "Shoot to kill" was like some special order given when (I think) someone was "armed and dangerous", wasn't it?

Do you have any thoughts on this shift in policy/attitude as far as why? Thanks again for your comments. I'm very interested to know more about this, if you don't mind.

-- mh

An interesting question 12.Nov.2005 21:09

LN

The answer is not easy. I believe that the importation of more aggressive officers from regions where their annonymity was virtually guaranteed, due to the size of their departments was one very large factor in the spread of the shoot to kill mentality. I do remember that even when I first attended the police academy, long before this scourge began, we were trained to never draw unless we intended to kill, which was a survival technique. It also caused hesitation, and time to think. Yes, it also cost some officers, and possibly others, their life, due to the inherant delay.
With the foregoing preamble said, it still remains that the police are a reflection (albeit a stark one) of the society that allows it to continue. Power is a heady thing, and unfettered power is soon corrupt. We live in an age when even the "leaders" of the country have adopted an ends justify the means philosophy, which allows us to suspend our normal social rules, in favor of expediency and/or safety.
Cops are being taught that to hesitate, even when the situation may call for it, can leave their family husband and fatherless (I say this as a sexist, since as yet I know of no female officer killing a citizen. It may have happened, I have not researched it.). This kind of fear leads to trigger happiness, and then the grand jury system, coupled with a da who is really the only attorney present, rubber stamps the approval of the killing. This attitude is then pervasive. I have it on rumor though not confirmed, that Officer Bergin went on holiday to Las Vegas while awaiting the order to return to work, which came even before he was exhonerated by the jury. That kind of sensitivity training will never achieve a balance between the public and police power.

escalating animosity. also, availabilty of police records 12.Nov.2005 23:45

st

An initially hostile, militaristic approach to dealing with citizens they find themselves compelled to detain is aparrently appealing to law enforcement for the efficiency and security to them it may appear to represent, but it's probably ultimately self defeating for the animosity and resistance it fosters. Cops can beat people down, but gradually, as has been happening for some time now, they wise up, and are less inclined to peaceably surrender.

If there's anything tougher than a schizophrenically trained police officer, it's a street wise, embittered person with some sense of dignity remaining, committed and determined to take advantage of what they believe may be their only opportunity to redress injustice done to them.

I think modern policing has evolved from many sources; the overwhelming odds police found themselves confronting during civil rights demonstrations in the south in the 60's, anti-war demonstrations, urban conflicts like watts in L.A. and in Chicago, riots in south africa, and most recently, Paris. As a result of what was observed and experienced in those events, individual detention and crowd management techniques that are highly efficient, overwhelmingly powerful, and can be mobilized rapidly, became increasingly attractive.

Today's police officers probably do need to be trained in militaristic storm trooper techniques so as to be ready for occasions arising that really call for it, but encouraging and allowing cops to use them in everyday policing is just crazy. Hint: France, france, france. It's kind of like some cops look for opportunities to show off their profficiency with those techniques, just because it's the current hip thing to do, even though the situation far from calls for it.

Lew, it sounds like you've read the police reports from the Fouad Kaady shooting. I read they were released. Can you explain how to get a hold of them, or provide links to them?

Where to get reports 13.Nov.2005 08:02

LN

The "reports" available to us are incomplete, disjointed, and mostly irrelevant statements of "investigations" into Fouad's background, but you can obtain them at the CLackamas Co S.O. records division, on Kaen Rd in Oregon City. The cost is, at last count, $120.00. That's about twenty dollars a pound. Many really important pieces of information are included, such as the fact that he smoked off brand cigarettes (even have a copy of Mfgrs. Data sheet.), or that he had no juvenile record (he was 27 years old, for God sakes, what possible relevance could a juvenile record have?). Anyway, that is how it is done.

Regarding the reactionary forces needing to be trained and equipped to fight a war on the streets, I think I differ with you there. The forces are trained and supplied to engage in counter public warfare, whenever the public mind differs with the corporate line. The annonymous automaton suits lend themselves well to this endeavor, and the streets of our very own Portland are great testing labs for this kind of fascism. As for the race and anti war rallies of the sixties, the corporation did not really care if the inner cities burned down. The cops had very little of the high tech equipment that they have now, until it began to appear that the violence was moving out of the ghetto.

If you have been following any of the political actions in town over the past few years, surely you have noticed that in most cases, any violence that occurs has been started, and ended, by the "peace" officers. I have seen them standing there with their pepper spray, spraying over the heads of a peacefully assembled crowd, trying to instigate violence. When that fails, they plow in anyway. "someone threw a bottle..."

AAAAAAAAAGH 13.Nov.2005 11:38

i can't take it any more

I've read cop lies in Seattle about protesters supposedly throwing rocks and bottles at the police. Activists would argue with media or politicians about it, and just the allegation puts you on the defensive. "So what did they throw then?" NOBODY THREW ANYTHING! "So you're saying the police just made it up?" Of course they wouldn't do that, right?

Anybody who's been to downtown Seattle can attest that bottles and rocks are not scattered on the sidewalk. Downtown Seattle, which abuts Puget Sound, is built high up above the natural grade so the sewers will work right, and there are no vacant lots. Protesters would have to plan ahead and BRING bottles and rocks from somewhere else just to throw at the cops.

They can't even come up with convincing lies.

yo tambien' 13.Nov.2005 14:00

LN

Yes, I would suggest to anyone who has not yet done so, take the time and energy to download (from this site) and watch "Li2Unews" it is a real eye openner, as are most of the videos that our hard working videoistas have provided for us. Inform yourselves.
Well, as we are about to fall off the bottom of the page, I want to say that the discussion has been nice, although I had hoped it would be less about me and my feelings, and more an opportunity for cops like I wuz there to speak out and be heard (at least read). We really need such a forum. Many officers did enter the "profession" in order to give back, to be an important part of the community, and to protect and to serve. Perhaps, with more interchange, we can help them heal the part that the corporate system has formed a scab over. I really doubt that I was there, was actually there. Find it hard to believe that either of those officers' egos will allow them to engage in such discussion so soon after the killing. Maybe later.
For my part, let me back step a little. It was not all bad, being a public servant, and all of my instincts to serve and protect did not get shut down. I felt proud of what I was doing most of the time, and fortunately I came into a relatively young department, where the culture had not yet developed to the point that I would have had to keep looking the other way, in order to remain so employed. It was good for me, for a number of years. I sound like a real old timer now, probably because, well, I am. The good ol days did have some good stuff going on. We now live in the scariest time that my studies in history have revealed to me. The cops do have a tough job, protecting us from us. Unfortunately, that job has been coopted by the corporations, to the point that the first thing to be protected after Katrina was the WalMart. As long as the business and corporate community is calling all the shots, the police no longer work for us, and that is sad.

realeased don't neccessarily mean accessible 13.Nov.2005 14:20

st

$120.00...well that effectively puts the reports out of the hands of many people, unless they pool some money to get them. How does it happen you've seen them? Why can't the county just put the reports online? Seems like that would more effectively "release them to the public".

Re; "...trained in militaristic storm trooper techniques..." That's a touchy issue. I could probably have used a softer phrase, but that's the kind of readiness I've seen on display at some of the demonstrations downtown. Having that training and responsibly displaying and using it should be two different things.

I think the Portland police have used the storm trooper gear/mentality to goad and antagonize people in peaceful assembly. That's not the way it should be used, and doing so, as alan graf and his team so effectively proved, can aggravate and turn a benign situation into a dangerous one. The way in which cops have been encouraged and permitted to use the storm trooper mentality and the whiz bang toys carte blance is part of what needs to be changed. I think that was the point of the class action lawsuit.

In Fouad Kaady's case, he was just one unarmed, noncompliant, naked, burned guy standing atop a police car, facing two very highly armed and dressed, healthy and obedient police officers crouched and hiding with weapons drawn and pointed at him. That the officers were able to personally justify their actions in shooting Kaady and not be found guilty of having committed any crime to a reasonable doubt by a grand jury, is a continuing mystery.

That's why some kind of intensive investigation needs to be mounted. People need to see and read the police reports and have access to much more related information. Perhaps the public will one day know more and care. Already, very few people in general, let alone remorseful police officers, are talking about the death of Fouad Kaady. I'm afraid the crocadile tears of
Mr."I was there", don't have much credence.

public records 13.Nov.2005 15:49

Red Tree

You are completely right about the cost of the public records. BTW, they were given FREE to corp media. Why was that? Because they manipulate it to the "proper" cause? All citizens should be able to see these records. Perhaps a copy cost could be charged, but $120!!! Perhaps we should begin asking the county this very question. Why are these records NOT made available in a way that all interested citizens might look at them. The government knows that we have a legal right to these reports, but designs the accessibility procedure to discourage us from actually getting our hands on them.

Record cost 13.Nov.2005 15:59

LN

Red Tree hit the nail.
Because of a project that I am assisting with, I cashed in a few bottles, and hocked my ipod, so that I could purchase said package. I have to say that I was terribly dissapointed with the lack of quality, and lack of completeness. May have to file a freedom of information subpoena to get at the rest of the report. They only released that which they thought was sufficient to fool the public, and they were nearly correct. I note that several of the local corp media wiz kids took the free hand out, and passed it off verbatim as fact, like as if they were actual reporters.

pooling resources 13.Nov.2005 17:08

indy reporter 4949

Hey Lew, perhaps you should contact the indy volunteers (or if your email is online I can get people to contact you). Another individual working on a video about the Kaady case also paid the $120 (and shares your assessment on the quality of that information) and there's no reason that the state should be making so much on providing those records. There might also be individuals who would be willing to work on a FOIA request or something similar. Also, I was telling some people last night about this article and some people might contact you about conducting an interview.

consider it done 13.Nov.2005 17:41

LN

consider my copy at Indy's disposal.

FOIA 13.Nov.2005 18:03

Red Tree

Re: FOIA, I am sure you folks already know more about how to go about getting information than I do, but a quick Google search gave me this page:  link to www.firstamendmentcenter.org

It might answer some questions. The disturbing part pertains to fees. Apparently we have the freedom to request, but the 'obligation' to pay what the agency chooses to charge for information.

Police Reports 14.Nov.2005 09:17

indy reporter #16429

They gave them to the corp media for FREE??? Shit, I guess I shoulda taken my press pass with me.

I am currently pouring over a copy, and will do what I can to make it available to the public when I can. At the moment, I am using it for a project, but will make copies and provide them to the public when I have the time/resources to do so.

indy reporter #16429.... 14.Nov.2005 12:38

st

So what, there's 6 lbs of reports?....what would it take to scan and put that on line? It'll take forever for people to see what's in there just passing it around hand to hand, and maybe that's the plan.

Six lbs 14.Nov.2005 15:58

LN

Yep, I would say, about six lbs. I don't have the ability or the time to scan it to the web, and I doubt three people will read it. Those in the corp media that got the free copies barely scanned a few lines, because it is the most disjointed excuse for any kind of narrative that I have ever seen, and I used to train rookies. This was designed to confuse, not to inform. The only real interest would likely be the officer's statements, which, when you realize they are made under the influence of lawyers, as well as union reps, are probably of marginal probitive value.

let people decide for themselves... 14.Nov.2005 18:17

st

Is it being concluded that it's not practical or constructive to put the reports online due to lack of equipment, the size of the task or because people really wouldn't be interested in studying it for themselves? A number of people commenting on this website appear to have already forked up the $120, and that amazes me. What a waste of money=energy. One person purchasing would have been enough, or, if the media wanted to demonstrate their humanity, they could have loaned one of their free copies to indy and some volunteers could have had a copy/scan bee. Bet the job could have been done quite fast.

There's all kind of monotonous text on our own state government website. How many people read that material? But, when you need it, it's there. Nothing does a better job of proving a skunk is present than its stink.

I have a modest amount of time on the web per month, so it might have taken me awhile to read the reports, but it sounds like I, and many other people should try to read the damn thing. I managed to read Darren Laur's lengthy 60 page paper on Excited Delirium, downloaded to the hard drive with adobe reader.

At present, the reports must be one of the most important documents in the Fouad Kaady case. If, as LN says, the document "...was designed to confuse, not to inform", then it would seem to be constructive for those of the public so inclined, especially indy people, to see this proof of how their local elected officials and public servants subvert justice. The probative value of the police reports built around Fouad Kaady may not be valuable as direct proof of what happened to him on September 9th, but as this road continues, they may be invaluable as indirect proof of the pathologically misanthropic tendencies of the law enforcement and legal establishment in Clackamas County.

The only reasonable explanation I can think of for not making the reports widely available, is if the information contained within is of a sufficiently sensitive nature that releasing them would hurt, rather than help the Kaady family more than it already has been.

Thanks again 14.Nov.2005 18:30

mh

LN, ST: Thanks for your considered responses to my question waaaaay up there. Sorry to not have responded sooner -how rude! But living in fair Sandy as I do, I've been very tied up with our teacher's strike - which as you may know, has gotten quite ugly this past weekend. The union could really use some more support up here, so any of you of a like mind are invited to join those of us who support labor and oppose union busting. Next bargaining session: 1 pm tomorrow.

report availability 15.Nov.2005 08:46

LN

I guess you're right, ST. I have recycled my copy by passing it along to others at Indy, and I assume that it will continue it's rounds. Hopefully, someone will have the technology and the time to get some, or most of it scanned into a pdf or other format, and pass it along. I am pretty certain that, as time goes on, more facts will become available.
This particular incident is so heinous, that I hope we never let it die. The issues involved are similar to the issues that abound in police confrontations all over the country, but in this case, they are so blatant that even the unaware are gradually becoming interested. Keep the ball rolling.

Some things of interest from the report 15.Nov.2005 09:36

CatWoman

As LN states, the reports are missing some important documents (something I noticed because those included refer to at least one witness statement that is not in the stack), and the whole stack seems to be an effort to obfuscate. HOWEVER, there are some very important things in there for the careful reader.

First, the officers clearly lied -- Something Kyle Iboshi, corporate media whore, did not see fit to mention even as he highlighted the offending statements. Importantly, both officers claim that Fouad was screaming, "I'm gonna kill you!" at the time that they shot him. In point of fact, there were at least 9 other witnesses to the shooting. Many were in a position to hear the entire sordid affair, as they demonstrate by quoting both officers and victim. However, none of them, not one, heard Fouad screaming anything at the officers. No threats, no "I'm gonna kill you." Mr. Iboshi highlighted the officers' statements that he had screamed this, but he did not point out the discrepancy. In addition, of the 9 people, other than the officers, who witnessed the killing, all but two stated that the killing was unjustifiable. The two who felt it was acceptable were both sitting in the same pickup truck -- the owner of a nearby nursery and a colleague of his. Neither of them heard Fouad screaming any threats either, they just thought he was weird so killing him was apparently all right. (One of them thought Fouad was painted, if memory serves. Don't quote me on that, though, because I do not presently have the stack in front of me.)

There are many more discrepancies, which will be portrayed in an upcoming Video from the Resistance. When I have the time, I will try to write more about this, but I am unable to do so at the moment. For now, suffice to say there was obvious collusion between the officers, and the "investigator" is clearly on their side. The "investigator" is from the same department as one of the killers -- the Clackamas County Sheriff's office -- rather than being a neutral 3rd party. He blatantly coaches the officers during their "interrogation," especially his friend officer Willard. Despite the help from the investigator and the opportunity to get their stories straight before questioning, the officers' stories nevertheless change several times, in very revealing ways. Also, in spite of the effort to keep any substantive information from the public, these documents clearly show that the killing was not justifiable. The majority of witnesses were shocked, startled, and appalled at what happened. (Something else Kyle Iboshi failed to mention in his substantive report from the courthouse the day of the aquittal, when he announced, "The big question remains: Was Fouad on drugs?" The big question indeed.)

Stay tuned...this is not over.

Shoot First Mentality 23.Dec.2005 06:31

sixpack sixpack6t9@hotmail.com

Words were uttered by a DA to one of my family members some years ago, in a domestic violence situation--"Dead men can't talk, and they can't sue you". Could this logic be what is often applied in the decision to shoot to kill?

Sixpack


Take out the trash 23.Dec.2005 06:51

sicpack sixpack6t9@hotmail.com

You know guys, if you were to take the unnecessary, irrelevent trash out of that six pounds of documents, my guess is you would have about half the bulk that could be condensed into something meaningful and more easily distributed for all to see. Do we really need to know what brand of cigarettes he smoked? or that he smoked at all? NO. We want the facts--just the facts.

Just a thought.


By The Way... 23.Dec.2005 07:02

sixpack sixpack6t9@hotmail.com

I forgot to mention that a friend of mine, Bob Lursen, who is a TV producer for a local public access station is interested in these topics and offers to produce programs. He is a kindly old gent who is currently under fire from portland police for opening his own home to homeless people to escape the cold weather.

contact me if anyone is interested in putting together and broadcasting some shows. << sixpack6t9@yahoo.com>>

This is a sincere proposal from an activist of several decades of activism, mostly battling police brutality and system corruption. Contact me and I'll answer all questions.

Thanks,
Sixpack

http://wabc.mahost.org
Laurelhurst district

To:By the Way, But should be of interest to all! 14.Mar.2006 11:09

Visionz kelli@cnnw.net

I happened upon your site quite by accident while trying to find out how to gain access to police records as my 16 yo son is currently being railroaded by these very same Clack. Co officials.

I am absolutely convinced that there are obvious signs of coverup and wrongdoing, not to mention appalled at the twisted way this "injustice" system works.

I am a single mom to 4 boys, raising them alone since they were 7 and under. I have no money with which to fight this, and they know it. My oldest is now 21 and married, and none of my boys has EVER had even a hint of trouble from the law or school or anywhere else until now. Granted, my youngest has made some mistakes, but what they are trying to pin on him is absolutely not in his character.

To this date, neither my son nor I have recieved any proper counsel, and its been almost 3 months since his arrest...He didn't recieve miranda rights for over a month...Public defender will not discuss the case w/me, police tell me to go to Public defender for answers, and viseversa...Thus essentially forcing this boy to face it ALL alone.

The laws are so completely twisted to their every advantage too. For example, when trying to find out why I could not be present during his initial visit w/his Public Defender,I was informed that although that is what the boy may want, the laws are that he is not sophisticated enough (mentally) to make the decision about whether he would like his parent involved in the case and, he is also legally too young to sign the document expressing such a request. Do parents in general know that children as young as 12 and 13 can be dragged off the school grounds by police, taken for interrogation and coerced into making some addmission without ever being mirandized or told they are allowed access to a lawyer? All this without the parent ever knowing?

I didn't either...