New 9/11 stuff & Advance Knowledge of 3 Bldg. Collapses
Newly released transcripts of firefighters interviewed after 9/11 reveal advance knowledge of twin towers' and WTC7 collapses with a little speculation about what this could mean. Also a discussion on what else was & is going to be released and how that info is being redacted first.
>>>>>"Dr. Griffin will be speaking about the recently-released archives of police, firefighter and citizen responses on 9/11/2001 (this Thursday in Connecticut and on 10/15 in NYC). According to Dr. Griffin and others, those archives strengthen the already-formidable case that the Twin Towers and WTC Building 7 were destroyed in controlled demolitions with explosives." http://boston.indymedia.org/newswire/display/42578/index.php
Can't seem to post this comment in response to boston indymedia page above, so I put it here.
This is a very interesting topic, this recently released information, and I haven't seen any analysis of it yet. Below I've copied some tidbits from it that demonstrate that there was advance knowledge that the twin towers and WTC Building 7 would collapse. With the twin towers, the newly released material provides further information concerning an unidentified guy from the Office of Emergency Management knowing that both towers would collapse before either of them did. With WTC7, you even had groups of firefighter and other personnel standing around (a sufficient distance away) WAITING for a couple of hours for it to collapse, as they were directed to do, so that they could help out afterwards.
Since there's never been a credible scientific explanation of these 3 building collapses that jives with the official story - as the fires and/or plane hits should not have been anything close to sufficient to bring these buildings down (see all the internet research indicating extent and estimated temperature of fires and the temperature needed to weaken steel, the free-fall speed of the collapses, etc., etc.), this is further evidence of their intentional demolition by explosion or similar means with some people in the know before it happened. And it is interesting to examine too how this material was dealt with by the Kean Commission's 9/11 report. How could anyone know in advance that these buildings would collapse when there was no scientific reason, no previous history of building collapses under similar circumstances, and when the buildings were so constructed to withstand collapsing under such circumstances - unless they had inside info about the PLANNED DEMOLITIONS? Answer: they couldn't.
All of the recently released information is located here:
link to graphics8.nytimes.com
and includes oral histories from firefighters and other personnel interviewed by the Fire Department beginning a few weeks after the attacks through 2/02. Although the New York Times indicated in August on the day the new stuff was released that they were making it all public - some 500 firefighter and other personnel interview statements, that wasn't previously true. Previously, I counted only 80 interview statements up on their website. They had a different link for it back on August 12th: ( link to www.nytimes.com ) which is still a working link -although it does NOT provide all the 503 statements even when you refresh the page, so don't be fooled like I was. Use the new link that I just discovered tonight which does contain some 500 odd statements. The link is above, the one with the word "full" contained in its url towards the end. The Kean Commission report also mentioned 500 fire department interview transcripts, and they also indicated in footnote 163 of Chapter 9 that the Kean Commission interviewed 100 such personnel themselves, although any transcripts of same have not been released by the Commission.
Note that although the Times' webpage which provides transcripts of these oral histories misleadingly indicates that the
"[t]he oral histories of dispatch transmissions are transcribed verbatim. They have not been edited to omit coarse language"
the oral histories have, in fact, been edited to delete "portions that can be shown likely to cause serious pain or embarrassment to an interviewee". That phrase is from the New York Court of Appeal's decision which ruled in March on what should and
should not be released out of all the info the New York Times was seeking in its lawsuit which it brought after the City and Fire Dept. refused disclosure under the Freedom of Information law. The New York Times admitted as much when it reported on the histories' release on 8/12/05 by indicating that "The Court of Appeals allowed the oral histories to be edited under a limited set of circumstances" although the Times didn't mention therein what those limited set of circumstances were.
link to www.nytimes.com
Pursuant to the Court's decision (here: http://www.nycourts.gov/courts/appeals/decisions/mar05/13opn05.pdf )
those "limited set of circumstances" refers to the 'embarrassing' stuff, as quoted above.
Also to be noted, so you can see the extent of the farce that is the information the public is denied access to with respect to 9/11 is that the New York Court of Appeals will permit only the release of one side of the telephone calls made to 911 on 9/11: the 911 operators' side, not the side of the people who called 911 (except for calls to 911 involving 8 victims whose family members were party to the lawsuit.) So, we don't get to hear what people reported to the 911 operators, only the operators' responses. This is a special privacy rule the Court came up with just for Sept. 11th, as traditionally there is no expectation of privacy under the law when one calls 911.
And with respect to "interagency communications or dispatch calls" made on 9/11, the Court will only permit "facts" from same to be revealed, not "opinions". In other words, to give just a quick & sloppy example, if in a dispatch call or recorded interagency communication, one firefighter chief said to another that "My name is John Smith and the time now is X. I heard what sounded like explosions in the basement and I think it was bombs that took down that tower", the only portion of such communication that is not opinion, "My name is John Smith and the time is X" would be released, not the rest which would be considered an opinion. There are audio dispatch tapes on the Times' website above. Haven't listened to hardly any of them. And on 8/12/05, the New York Times reported that "[o]ther records, including tapes of 911 operators, are being assembled and are not yet ready for release, city officials said" (link above).
Anyway, back to the advance knowledge of the collapse of the towers and WTC #7. I read only a very few of the oral histories (from the Times' original link, which was to only about 80 of them) and happened to come across the following excerpts which reveal this advance knowledge. Links to same are also included & a few times I inserted my own comment in parenthesis, identified as such with my name - Angie.
After the excerpts, I'll just mention how the Kean Commission report dealt with this material, of advance knowledge of the 3 building collapses and leave others to speculate on what it means.
Excerpts from the recently released oral histories:
"because I was getting hungry. We were eating oatmeal cookies and watered-down Gatorade from the Salvation Army and the Red Cross. They were great. They had plenty of food. But we were getting hungry.
We walked back. We didn't do any
further because building number seven was coming down. That was another problem, to wait for building seven to come down, because that was unsecure. It was about 5:30 that building came down."
FIREFIGHTER SCOTT HOLOWACH
A. Yes, Stuyvesant High School, until they figured out, I guess, there was no gas leak or no secondary bomb. Or no bomb. I guess they put the PD in there to search it. They moved us back south. We ended up back up on Vesey Street and West Street and just hanging out until tower 7 came down.
After tower 7 came down, we went right to work over at tower 7 to put the fires out. That's where we stayed until we were relieved.
Q. Did you see a lot of civilians coming out towards you away by the water on West Street?
A. There wasn't much civilians at the water, no, no.
LIEUTENANT WILLIAM RYAN
I remember Chief Hayden saying to me, "We have a six-story building over there, a seven-story building, fully involved." At that time he said, "7 has got fire on several floors." He said, "We've got a ten-story over there, another ten-story over there, a six-story over there, a 13-story over there." He just looked at me and said, "Fuck 'em all. Let 'em burn."
He said, "Just tell the guys to keep looking for guys.
Just keep looking for the brothers. We've got people trapped. We've got to get them out."
. . .
Then we found out, I guess around 3:00
o'clock, that they thought 7 was going to collapse.
So, of course, we've got guys all in this pile over here and the main concern was get everybody out, and I guess it took us over an hour and a half, two hours to get everybody out of there.
Q. Initially when you were there, you had said you heard a few Maydays?
A. Oh, yes. We had Maydays like crazy.
Q. You were getting radio transmissions?
A. There were people talking. The guys I've talked to that were with us heard voices and were shouting to people. We had heard pass alarms, but then we didn't hear voices, no more pass alarms. The heat . . .
So it took us a while and we ended up backing everybody out, and that's when 7 collapsed. Then, basically, after 7 collapsed, I went over and told the Chief that -- by then they had companies with handie-talkies, masks. You've got to remember, the first 200 guys went in there with no handie-talkies, no masks, some of them with bunker gear, some without. A lot of guys I recognized. I'm on the job 23 years, so I know a lot of guys, and they were just coming up to me. It was good to see everybody was there trying to do something.
Basically, we fell back for 7 to collapse, and then we waited a while and it got a lot more organized, I would guess. By then there was some heavy equipment showing up and the Chiefs took over, and I basically kind of slipped away from the Chiefs because I didn't want to be doing what I was doing anymore. I kind of felt stuck there.
. . .
position over here. I went in there to take a leak and I just looked around. I guess when we fell back for 7 to collapse I called her. I found a phone that worked, a landline, and I got through to her. I didn't know the Pentagon got hit. I didn't know. She started telling me all that shit.
FIREFIGHTER FRANK SWEENEY
Now the Fire Department is trying to gather the people and make some kind of organization out of it and getting companies together at that time.
Once they got us back together and
organized somewhat, they sent us back down to Vesey, where we stood and waited for Seven World Trade Center to come down.
A different oral history:
"Again, times are a little fuzzy initially for
me. A few minutes later, John (not further identified except most
likely from OEM - Angie)
came to me and said you need to go find Chief Ganci and relay the
following message: that the buildings have been compromised, we
need to evacuate, they're going to collapse. I said
okay. I went down Vesey Street towards West.
Q. You were by yourself?
A. I was by myself, me and my helmet and my
radio. I got to the corner of Vesey and West. I found
some EMS vehicles. I think I saw Chief Gombo there.
I'm not really sure. I mentioned to the EMS people
there, again, not knowing who they were, I said you
need to get away from here, the building might
collapse, we need to leave this spot.
As I was walking towards the Fire command
post, I found Steve Mosiello. I said, Steve, where's
the boss? I have to give him a message. He said,
well, what's the message? I said the buildings are
going to collapse; we need to evac everybody out. With
a very confused look he said who told you that? I said
I was just with John at OEM. OEM says the buildings
are going to collapse; we need to get out.
He escorted me over to Chief Ganci. He said,
hey, Pete, we got a message that the buildings are
going to collapse. His reply was who the fuck told you
that? Then Steve brought me in and with Chief Ganci,
Commissioner Feehan, Steve, I believe Chief Turi was
initially there, I said, listen, I was just at OEM.
The message I was given was that the buildings are
going to collapse; we need to get our people out. At
that moment, this thunderous, rolling roar came down
and that's when the building came down, the first tower
. . .
very fine but heavy dust that was in the air.
Once I got out of the building, maybe ten
minutes from there, that unforgettable rolling started.
Q. The same sound you heard earlier?
A. The same sound I heard earlier.
Q. Where were you at this point?
A. I was on West and Vesey, probably in the
middle of the intersection, trying to find people that
I knew. At this point I didn't know where John was,
where Abdo was. I don't know what happened to No. 7.
I knew the building was coming down. I watched it come
down on us, but I don't know where anybody else is.
As that roar was happening on the second time
around, I was running down Vesey Street towards the
water with a few thoughts in my head.
A. There was a building right there on the
corner. Maybe 15, 20 feet off the corner, there was an
entrance into a building, and that's where -- it was
mostly glass windows and we were concerned that the
glass was going to implode.
Q. Did that face the river?
A. It faced the river and that was protection in
Q. About a three-block distance?
A. It's actually one city block, but still that . . ."
John Perrugia interview:
Q. What is your rank and title?
A. EMS Division Chief, in charge
the Chief of Department's office.
(This is the "John" that sent Zarrillo with the message about the
inpending collapses. But first he mentions in his interview why WTC7 was evacuated, not because of any fear for the buildings' structural integrity due to fires or 2 airplane attacks but because of a report of a 3rd hijacked plane: - Angie)
"I reached 7 World Trade Center. We walked
into the lobby and we were going up the escalators to
the main level. I checked in at the security desk. As
we reached the top of the escalators, there were lots
of people running down the escalator on the promenade.
I spoke to one of the Deputy Directors and as I was
speaking with him, I believe it was Deputy Director
Rotanz (not on list of those statementized - Angie), who is a Fire
Department Captain on detail over there, Captain Nahmod and EMT
Zarrillo approached as well. They had indicated that the building was
I questioned as to what the nature of the
evacuation was. I was told that it was not because of
what was occurring across the street. No one feared
that the building was in any danger as a result of two
airplane attacks and subsequent fires, but that there
were reports of a third plane that had been hijacked.
It was unidentified, the location, and they thought it
may be coming in for an additional strike. Therefore,
they were evacuating the building.
We proceeded down to the lobby where the
various agency representatives were present. We
collectively started to set up in the lobby and try to
think of strategies to where we could move the
inter-agency cooperation effort."
And now to advance notice that towers would collapse:
"point I went back into the building. I was in a
discussion with Mr. Rotanz [again, not on the list of people
statementized - Angie] and I believe it was a
representative from the Department of Buildings, but
I'm not sure. Some engineer type person, and several
of us were huddled talking in the lobby and it was
brought to my attention, it was believed that the
structural damage that was suffered to the towers was
quite significant and they were very confident that the
building's stability was compromised and they felt that
the north tower was in danger of a near imminent
I grabbed EMT Zarrillo, I advised him of that
information. I told him he was to proceed immediately
to the command post where Chief Ganci was located.
Told him where it was across the street from number 1
World Trade Center. I told him "You see Chief Ganci
and Chief Ganci only. Provide him with the information
that the building integrity is severely compromised and
they believe the building is in danger of imminent
collapse." So, he left off in that direction.
Q. They felt that just the one building or both
A. The information we got at that time was that
they felt both buildings were significantly damaged,
but they felt that the north tower, which was the first
one to be struck, was going to be in imminent danger of
collapse. Looking up at it, you could see that, you
could see through the smoke or whatever, that there was
significant structural damage to the exterior of the
building. Very noticeable. Now you know, again, this
is not a scene where the thought of both buildings
collapsing ever entered into my mind.
I was there in 1993, 14 minutes after the
bomb went off. I operated some 16 hours at the
building and with all the post-incident critiques and
debriefings with various agencies. We were always told
by everyone, the experts, that these buildings could
withstand direct hits from airplanes. That's the way
they were designed. They went through all of this
architectural stuff, way beyond the scope of my
It was hit by an airplane. That's okay.
It's made to be hit by an airplane. I mean I think
everyone may have believed that. We were all told
years ago it was made to be hit by an airplane.
Some amount of time passed by, probably not
long, again, I wasn't checking my watch. Actually we
were just really disgusted, maybe we were going to move
what we were going to do and how we were going to try
to coordinate. Things were hectic. We didn't have the
tools that we normally have to communicate with our
agency, you know, cellular phones were not working
properly, radio was very difficult to get through. I
work for the Chief of the Department, I don't have a
fire ground radio, so I had no direct communications
with my boss at that time, which is one of the reasons
I needed to send EMT Zarrillo with that message, which
I felt was very significant, to the command post.
Just moments before the south tower collapsed
and, you know, when it happened we didn't know it was
the south tower. We thought it was the north tower.
There was a reporter of some sort, female with blond
hair and her cameraman, an oriental fellow. They were
setting up outside 7 World Trade Center, just east of
the pedestrian bridge. I told them it would probably
be better off to be set up under the bridge. At least
it was protected. I was just about to enter a dialogue
with her when I heard a sound I never heard before. I
looked up and saw this huge cloud. I told him run. I
grabbed the female, I threw her through the revolving
. . . (omitting portion of statement until 2nd collapse - Angie)
on Vesey and West. I looked up, I saw the north tower
fully involved. I saw number 6 World Trade Center
fully involved with fire. I started to make my way to
the command post when I heard that horrible sound
again, you know, that whining screeching jet engine.
I looked up and at that point I knew the
north tower was coming down. I made an immediate about
face and I started to run as quick as I can."
Now think about the ramifications of how and why the cagey Kean Commission dealt with this material as they did. They indicated they reviewed the 500 oral histories (footnote 163 on p. 550), and mention advance knowledge of the twin towers' collapse in this manner:
"They also received advice from senior FDNY chiefs that while the building might eventually suffer a partial collapse on upper floors, such structural failure was not imminent. No one anticipated the possibility of a total collapse." Page 290 of Kean Commission Report, & something similar on p. 302.
"At about 9:57, an EMS paramedic approached the FDNY Chief of Department and advised that an engineer in front of 7 WTC had just remarked that the Twin Towers in fact were in imminent danger of a total collapse." P. 302
"Prior to 9:59, no NYPD helicopter pilot predicted that either tower would collapse". P. 304
"Though almost no one at 9:50 on September 11 was contemplating an imminent total collapse of the Twin Towers, many first responders and civilians were contemplating the possibility of imminent additional terrorist attacks . . . " p. 320
"Contrary to a widely held misperception, no NYPD helicopter predicted the fall of either tower before the South Tower collapsed" p. 321
About advance knowledge that WTC7 would collapse, the Kean Commission report is completely silent. In fact, it doesn't mention the collapse of WTC7 at all. And the FEMA report concedes it doesn't have a good theory as to what caused WTC7 to fall. Prepare for the possibility of the exposure of the intentional demolition of WTC7 without it being connected with the towers or any 9/11 inside job plot, perhaps the exploitation of the tragedy that day wrought by the terrorists (a property crime, insurance fraud scam), or explained away in some other non 9/11-inside job manner as the release of these oral histories demonstrate that they aren't hiding the fact that they knew WTC7 would come down well before it did.
911 Truth Movement Musings (Watching the Watchers)
contribute to this article
contribute to this article
add comment to discussion