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just a quick, nasty thought

Do we really want to impeach?
A friend had progressive talk radio on today, and I heard a caller ask why they don't speak much about impeachment as that seems to the caller (and, I'm sure, many, myself included) the best way to settle the acts foisted upon us by our government. The answer from the host was that a) it'd be likely impossible, given the Republican majority, and b) that he felt that it was just one issue among many very important ones, and, because of 'a,' would shift the focus away from those other issues in futility. While I can understand the host's answer, to some extent, a horrible thought crossed my mind concerning this, making me shudder. Impeaching George would leave us...Dick Cheney as president? I'm sorry, but I can't possibly think of it now without gagging on the pollution that we breathe. George, given enough time to open his mouth, will discredit himself, even with Karl Rove whispering in his ear. But Cheney seems to have a grasp of all the buttons of power, and he's basically unelectable. (He hasn't beeen able to walk in, but has to ride in on an idiot...) Dick needs to go first, no doubt in my mind. With the precedent set during the Nixon problems, another Republican would be appointed VP, and I guess there are a lot of them out there who are pretty bad, but I can't think of another myself who could even be Cheney's shadow, some background as an elected official. Maybe others can; I don't pay too much attention. But Dick needs to be first, as George is really just a sideshow and a decoy.
Impeachment is a waste of energies 18.May.2005 21:07

villager

Given that the Republicans control damn near everything, there really isn't enough governmental power to actually cause an impeachment to go through.

The better place to invest energies is in strengthening the base. Find people who support Bush (I know, it's hard...) and work on showing them how wrong the Way of the Bush is. We need to get the voters back to sanity so that if we have another election we can stand half a chance of flipping things back to normal.

If Bush Were Successfully Ousted... 18.May.2005 22:16

Wallowed

...don't you suppose that the exposure might have an adverse impact on Cheney's career?

I disagree that impeachment is a waste of energies- especially with Bu$hCo's 'official'popularity already below 50%. The argument that there is not enough government power is a tired one, in my opinion. WE are the government.

"-- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth." Lincoln

The comically diabolical BuShCobal is collapsing on many fronts, and they are beginning to drown in their own excrement. Now is the time to meticulously doccument the nature of their heinous crimes.

Conditions in the US sit precariously on the brink of freefall. Average folks are already feeling the pinch. As things get worse, my hope and expectation is that more people will be interested in what is going on, and more people will want to do something about it.

The time has come to get up off of our knees. This is OUR government, and we can do with it what we like, including dissolve it. The current rulers are illegitimate pirates that continue to practice some of the most some of the most loathsome behavior in human history.

It is time to hold them to account. It is time that we DEMAND that our 'leaders' abide by the Constitution, and International Law. Our brothers and sisters around the world are showing us the way. If our representatives refuse to abide by the laws of this land, it is our RIGHT and our OBLIGATION to drag them away, kicking and screaming if need be, to answer their offences.

Impeachment is not a waste of time 18.May.2005 23:06

jac

It is an attempt to apply the law of the land to a criminal. It is not supposed to be a matter of choice any more than prosecution of murder. I know what the political situation is, but if there is no chance of winning because of politics then that in itself needs to become part of the dialogue, just as during the impeachment process the arguements for impeachment become more a part of the public dialogue. When this happens the Repugnicrat support for the Neocon, the war and for the commander in thief is eroded further. Even if we lose, it is a gain.

What I don't get is this all or nothing mentality. What little chance there is is completely negated by simply not trying. Is every venture's worth of undertaking to be judged by the numbers involved, or does the spirit of the thing matter? I say it does, that symbolism and actions just for the record have worth- or why bother with any of it?

We on the left already know there is not going to be one single event or action which will change the political landscape. When we are therefore so dependant on an aggregate of events and actions to begin to create an environment where progress is POSSIBLE much less attainable, why omit even one?

Gotta get to the 'Root Cause' 18.May.2005 23:09

villager

In IT, when there's a problem, sometimes fixing it isn't enough. You have to always ask, "Have I found the root cause?" The reason being, if you've only fixed a symptom of a larger problem, then almost surely the problem will return.

If a hard drive has filled up 100%, you might just go through and delete some files and think you're done. But it may be that something is broken and gobbling up space with its error logs; if you don't locate and fix *that*, then you may find the system will be out of space again, probably tonight at 3am when you'd rather be sleeping.

So it is with our government. Bush is just a symptom of a much larger problem. Sure, it'd be nice to impeach him, but there's plenty of other Bush-a-likes out there to take his (and even Cheney's) place.

Plus, the problem is much larger than just that guy. The house, senate, state governments, and soon the courts are all thick with neo-cons and their cronies.

It'd be like taking out one mob boss, and thinking it'd have some sort of impact on crime rates, when in actuality it'd just shuffle the players around a bit.

The problem is systemic, and you have to find what the root cause of it is before it can be sorted out. It's deep, its widespread, and its rampant. You must understand why it came into being, how it works, what its doing, and what its weaknesses are. Then develop a plan for how to correct it, take a shot, and keep trying until it gets fixed.

Talk and protesting won't do it; they are deliberately and arrogantly ignoring anyone that isn't in line with what they want to do. Aggressive words and actions won't do it; they've assembled an armada of "anti-terrorism" capabilities to quell any such dissent. They press isn't doing it; they're so tied to corporate interests that they're afraid to get very negative of the government lest they be shut out.

But focusing on converting the voters to our side will do it. If you take someone that votes a Republican ticket and change them to voting something else, you're attacking the problem at its root, and undermining the entire Republican party, not just Bush.

This is not as impossible as it seems; the neo-cons have a number of weaknesses. For one thing, they out and out lie, and you can prove that they're lying by anyone's measure of the truth. Second, their values really aren't mainstream. Most people believe in environmental issues, social issues, and so forth; the power of the Republicans is not that they represent the majority but that they were so successful in duping people into voting against their own self interests. These are all things in our favor, that if we can just demonstrate them effectively to enough of the people that voted Republican in the last election, and get above the propaganda machine, we may be able to change things. THIS is where energies should be focused.

Great Points, jac 19.May.2005 20:12

Wallowed

villager, I hope you will take a moment to review your words.

"The problem is systemic, and you have to find what the root cause of it is before it can be sorted out. It's deep, its widespread, and its rampant. You must understand why it came into being, how it works, what its doing, and what its weaknesses are. Then develop a plan for how to correct it, take a shot, and keep trying until it gets fixed."

We know the root cause. It is selfishness. The cures(s)? Exposure and education. Selfishness does not stand up well in the light of day. We, (those of us that retain our humanity) are at present, quite effectively countering this corrosive force on a myriad of fronts.

In fact, we are chipping away at it at this very moment, simply by discussing it. Anything and everything that is done to counter this dangerous corruption likely increases our chances to bring it in check, in my opinion. Sincerity is a powerful tool for change.

I feel that one of the most powerful tool in our arsenal are words- educating ourselves, talking to people, listening to them, and using reasoning to persuade them that our rulers are not working in their interests, and we should not have to take it anymore. That is the seed of change, and one over which the dubious Pirates have little control.

"But focusing on converting the voters to our side will do it."

That is exactly what we are doing. People our flocking to our side; the side of independence and humanity. The Republicans are exposing their ideas as unworkable, and ill conceived. The Democrats have revealed their depth of support for the neo-conservative/neo-liberal agenda. It is a tough contest as to which party is more disappointing.

I think that the CorPirates have underestimated their opposition. I sense that an increasing number of people have had enough of their potentially catastrophic ideas. Their ill deeds are out there for all to see now. It is our job to persuade others to look.

I predict a surge of "independents".

get rid of them both 21.May.2005 05:24

get rid of them all

Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Rice, etc... they should all be locked up for war crimes.

Accept nothing less than this.