portland independent media center  
images audio video
newswire article reposts united states

9.11 investigation

The Beginning of the End? Notes on Davuid Ray Griffins 9-11 talk

David Ray Griffin author of The New Pearl Harbor, gave a talk recently at Uni of Wisconsin
The Beginning of the End?
(C) 2005 by David Patnode

April 18, 2005

I attended a lecture tonight at the UW-Madison campus by Christian theologian David Ray Griffin. This is the author of "The New Pearl Harbor — Disturbing Questions about the Bush Administration and 9/11". His most recent book is "The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions". The title speaks for itself.

The lecture this evening was reported to be the first of its kind — the first time a formal lecture has challenged the official 9/11 story. In addition, it was being recorded for broadcast on C-SPAN! The lecture was entitled "9/11 and the American Empire: How Should Religious People Respond?" He started off with some definitions of "religious people" (apparently Christianity isn't the only religion), and "American Empire" — the conservatives would have you believe America is the world's first "benign" empire, but I think the point is pretty debatable. Then he gets into the heart of the lecture with a discussion of 9/11. He categorizes people into 4 groups:


People who believe the official story that the 9/11 attacks were a surprise attack orchestrated by 19 Islamic Al-Qaeda terrorists.
People who believe 9/11 was used opportunistically by the Bush administration to advance an agenda.
People who believe that the Bush administration had foreknowledge of the attacks but did not stop nor prevent them. No national polls have been taken, but one Zogby poll in New York City showed 50% of the people thought Bush knew.
People who believe the Bush administration orchestrated the 9/11 attacks.
Griffin goes on to describe how religious people in each of these groups would justify the "war on terror":


If you believe these were surprise attacks by terrorists, the war is justified then as "punishing evil", and you'd have no suspicion of American imperialism.
Those who consider Bush to be opportunistic with respect to 9/11 would probably categorize America's response as worse than the attacks themselves; they would tend to recognize that these attacks were most likely a "blowback" or response for decades of poor US-Mideast foreign policy.
People who believe the Bush administration knew about the attack, and let it happen anyway, would be angry. Very angry. For an administration that emphasizes the importance of "sanctity of life" to let thousands of innocent Americans die, to justify starting a war where hundreds of thousands of more people will die, that's worse than just hypocrisy. That smacks of treason.
If the third group is angry, the ideas of the 4th group are too horrible too think about — to consider that an American president and his administration would develop, orchestrate, and execute an attack against the American people — that's unthinkable! Or is it?
And there's where the lecture jumps into the serious questions and contradictions that anyone who's read any of the 9/11 Truth sites or "The New Pearl Harbor" is well aware. I'll reiterate what David Griffin spoke about this evening, but these questions are but a drop in the barrel.

He first brought up evidence to support the third group — that the Bush administration must have known about the 9/11 attacks. He spoke for a bit about the FBI and the testimony to the 9/11 Commission that the FBI had no knowledge of these attacks. Which, incidentally, is contradicted by a number of FBI agents & personnel. Attorney David Schippers (the lead prosecutor in the case against former President Clinton) announced within days after the attacks that he had been allegedly approached by several FBI agents weeks before warning of an impending attack — including details of where & when. The agents allegedly told him to stop their investigation by superiors, and when Schippers tried to get some answers Attorney General Ashcroft wouldn't return his calls.

Another little piece of damning evidence comes from the financial markets. Griffin reported that days before the attacks there were extraordinarly high "put options" placed on United Airlines, American Airlines and one of the firms that occupied several floors of the World Trade Center. Put options are essentially bets that the stock price is going to fall. So obviously somebody knew about the attacks and planned to profit off of them, and Griffin argues that the intelligence community keeps tabs on the financial markets to watch for things like this (at least, I believe that's what he said, my notes are vague).

Then we get into the really good stuff — 4 examples that Griffin presents to support the argument that not only did the Bush administration know about the attacks, it was actively involved in planning them:


The US military failed to stop the attacks and gave 3 different stories for why it failed. To start, the standard operating procedure for the FAA is to alert the military at the earliest sign that a plane might have been hijacked, and the military standard operating procedure is to have the nearest base scramble fighters to intercept the flight in question. This process takes 10-20 minutes, and Griffin says it happens about 100 times a year, so there's no excuse for these procedures not to have been followed on 9/11/2001.
First story: No fighters were in the air until after the Pentagon was hit, some 90+ minutes after the FAA reported the first hijacking.
Second story: They did send up fighters, but the FAA responded too slowly and the fighters didn't get there in time. If this story is accurate, then someone at FAA broke standard operating procedure — why has no one been held accountable for this? And even then, Griffin argues, the fighters still should have gotten there in time.
Third story: This was the story "made up" by the 9/11 Commission that the FAA gave insufficient warning about the first plane and NO warnings about the other planes. This directly contradicts the military's (second) story, which it had been using for the previous 3 years, as well as the many credible & mutually supporting stories of people involved (no details were given).
Obviously, not all 3 of these stories can be true. Either the military, the 9/11 Commission, or both, are lying. And why would they lie, but as a cover up?


The attacks on the Pentagon — the official story is that Flight 77 was crashed into the Pentagon. Assuming this is the case — how?

The Pentagon is the world's best defended site, within a couple miles of Andrews Air Force Base. The military claims there were no fighter squadrons on alert, which Griffin says is ridiculous.
The United States military boasts of the best radar system anywhere — they claim they don't miss anything in North American airspace, and the system is designed to track multiple targets simultaneously (as it would need to if America were under attack from a foreign air force or ICBM missle attack). So how'd they miss a commercial airliner headed right for the Pentagon?
The Pentagon is equipped with anti-aircraft missle batteries that attacks anything within range that's not equipped with a US military transponder. Which means either the missle batteries were deactivated on 9/11 or Flight 77 had a US military transponder. Neither of which is a promising explanation.
etc
 http://www.serendipity.li/wot/patnode.htm
I am sooooooo sick of idiots claiming flight 77 did not hit the pentagon! 20.Apr.2005 22:01

Snazmo

Please! Your posting was halfway decent and then you blew it at the end: the ridiculous conspiracy theory that flight 77 did not hit the pentagon. It did. Get over it. Thousands of people directly or indirectly saw/experienced this plane de facto crashing into the building. You lose any crediblity you had by passing this comical notion off on this website. Hundreds of military people were scrambling out of the friggin' pentagon after the crash fer chrissake!

Yes flight 77 hit the pentagon. As to why or how this happened, that is an altogether open-ended question. Perhaps, like Gulf of Tonkin or Pearl Harbor, the military and Bush warmonger scum knowingly allowed this to happen to do everything they have done since the fact: create a police state, create continual war with phantomlike "terrorist menace", invade Iraq, invade Iran, Patriot Act.

One thing is for sure: the World Trade Center was DEMOLISHED with explosives. The planes alone never could have caused them to collapse. It was totally a set up and the feds knew it was going to happen and let it happen anyways. Surprise!--NOT.

Please Tell Us, Snazmo 20.Apr.2005 22:43

idiot

Where was the wreckage if flight 77 hit the pentagon? Where was the plane-sized entry hole? Why wasn't the lawn messed-up?

Caution! Watching Pentagon Strike might turn you into an idiot that doesn't believe that flight 77 hit the pentagon.


I love disinformationists and trolls 20.Apr.2005 22:50

Javert

The Pentagon evidence is very strong -- you see it in the videos and photos. No aircraft wreckage, a hole the size of a two car garage in the Pentagon before the wall collapsed. You see the pics and hear Jamie McIntyre's so quickly buried report of 9-11, that it appears there was no airliner crash at the Pentagon.

You know that you're on to something when the trolls appear and try to debunk the evidence. That's why I love'em so much. If I suggested that Martians had knocked down the WTC with the intention of impressing and having sex with the Bush twins, the trolls would not bother to comment on the story, because it does not threaten the administration. No one's going to pay them to counter the Martian
theory.

The sweet thing about the Pentagon evidence is that it is self evident. You can't fit a 757 through the 16 by 12 foot hole without knocking big pieces of the plane off first.

If the 911 conspirators ever lose power, that Pentagon evidence is enough to get them indicted. Premeditated mass murder. Treason. Conspiracy. What is it in New York? Lethal injection.

Rummy, Cheney, the Chimpster, Gen. Myers at least, should retain criminal defense lawyers now and avoid the rush later.

weakest link 20.Apr.2005 23:00

me

Snazmo- The weakest link is that crash. Nice try but who cares what you think-you obviously just haven't studied the evidence closely. (Or maybe you have). Either way, ignorant or duplicious, your indignation carries zero weight in this unsolved mystery.

Spot the spin... 20.Apr.2005 23:07

Tony Blair's dog

"Thousands of people directly or indirectly saw/experienced this plane de facto crashing into the building."

False.

Actually only a handful of people has stated that they
saw something "like a jet liner" that morning
and had you done your homework you would know that

1. in almost all cases it was the news companies "filling
in the details" which the witnesses did not see since their
placement were not where they could see what actually made
the hole in the bottom floor.

2. the couple of witnesses claiming they saw flight 77
actually crashing into the wall have been found linked
to PNAC and the Bush administration.

Einstein said -- 20.Apr.2005 23:25

The Grand Narrator

1) Is it true that "9/11 changed everything"?


"The release of atom power has changed everything except our way of thinking." -- Albert Einstein
______________

2) Did the power structure of the U.S.A. generate, in one or more ways, the 9/11 disaster?

"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." -- Albert Einstein
______________

3) Could there be ANY evidence sufficient to convert 911 skeptics from their knee-jerk defense of the status quo?

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." -- Albert Einstein
______________


Quotes from --

 http://rescomp.stanford.edu/~cheshire/EinsteinQuotes.html

WHO benefited most? 21.Apr.2005 01:45

researcher

Who benefited most?

Prior to the attack the state of Israel was suffering terrible publicity from its bulldozing Palestinian homes, building its wall and killings of Palestinian children, even a journalist waving a white flag.

Then this government gets a warning from Israel's intelligence that there were operatives in this country, directed by Bin Laden and Sadamn Huesein getting ready to do something big.

Then just after the attack 5 Israelis were found, dancing and celebrating the attack while filming it at Liberty State Park. These were later found to be Mossad. Despite dogs sniffed explosives in their Moving Van, they were later deported by Michael Chetoff.
Mr. Chertoff, has American and Israeli citizenship.
Dr. Pastore explains the Mossad's questionable activities during this time frame. Over 200 Mossad agents are caught around the country, some are filming defense buildings, some are at nuclear power plant sites with plans, and some were even caught in the Mexican Parliament building with EXPLOSIVES. All were quietly deported.
 http://www.the7thfire.com/9-11/Pastore_Investigation_of_%209-11/chapter_2--dancing_Israelis.htm

Read the history of the Mossad. Formed by the ZIONISTs who won Israel's independence BY DRESSING UP AS ARABS AND BOMBING THE KING DAVID HOTEL, killing both British and ISRAELI citizens, they're experts in security systems, and their motto is "BY WAY OF DECEPTION THOU SHALT DO WAR" Their leader Ariel Sharon has been charged with the massacre of over 2000 people including unarmed women and children. The Zionists in Israel bombed American sailors on the US Liberty killing over thirty. Israel claimed it was an accident, but an Israeli soldier said he tried to get it stopped and was arrested.

 http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/libya.html Victor Ostrovsky, a former Mossad agent tells how the Mossad got America to bomb Lybia.
Do some research and see how much of the media is owned by Zionists, how many Zionists are in top positions of the government and military here in the USA.You should look  http://www.antichristconspiracy.com/HTML%20Pages/AntichristConspiracyHTML.htm
at the book for the influence and spying of government documents by the Anti Defamation League.

911 was a Mossad operation pulled off by very clever deception, intended to get Americans to fight their war for expansion in the Middle East. Probably they had the help of high administrative American Zionists, and Israeli businessmen. (Logan Airport, cell phone companies.) They also have the sympathy of many Jewish owners, the Trade Center owner who later said building seven was pulled, or demolished with a controlled explosion. Funny that's what the towers looked like too.

Somebody in Israel knew, how else can you explain that only one Israeli died in the Trade Center collapse? Odigo sent out a warning it was going to happen. You say but there were many American Jews who died in the collapse. I agree. ZIONISTS WANT THE JEWS TO MOVE TO ISRAEL!

Judaism puts God as supreme. Zionism puts the expansion of the state of Israel as Supreme.

WHO benefited most? 21.Apr.2005 01:58

researcher

Multimedia Preferences
Windows Media (300k)
Full Screen Mode
(press 'Esc' to exit)



Details
A cloned horse has been shown off to members of the media in Italy. 4/2005 Reuters






Click here for more videos

Who benefited most?

Prior to the attack the state of Israel was suffering terrible publicity from its bulldozing Palestinian homes, building its wall and killings of Palestinian children, even a journalist waving a white flag.

Then this government gets a warning from Israel's intelligence that there were operatives in this country, directed by Bin Laden and Sadamn Huesein getting ready to do something big.

Then just after the attack 5 Israelis were found, dancing and celebrating the attack while filming it at Liberty State Park. These were later found to be Mossad. Despite dogs sniffed explosives in their Moving Van, they were later deported by Michael Chetoff.
Mr. Chertoff, has American and Israeli citizenship.
Dr. Pastore explains the Mossad's questionable activities during this time frame. Over 200 Mossad agents are caught around the country, some are filming defense buildings, some are at nuclear power plant sites with plans, and some were even caught in the Mexican Parliament building with EXPLOSIVES. All were quietly deported.
 http://www.the7thfire.com/9-11/Pastore_Investigation_of_%209-11/chapter_2--dancing_Israelis.htm

Read the history of the Mossad. Formed by the ZIONISTs who won Israel's independence BY DRESSING UP AS ARABS AND BOMBING THE KING DAVID HOTEL, killing both British and ISRAELI citizens, they're experts in security systems, and their motto is "BY WAY OF DECEPTION THOU SHALT DO WAR" Their leader Ariel Sharon has been charged with the massacre of over 2000 people including unarmed women and children. The Zionists in Israel bombed American sailors on the US Liberty killing over thirty. Israel claimed it was an accident, but an Israeli soldier said he tried to get it stopped and was arrested.

 http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/libya.html Victor Ostrovsky, a former Mossad agent tells how the Mossad got America to bomb Lybia.
Do some research and see how much of the media is owned by Zionists, how many Zionists are in top positions of the government and military here in the USA.You should look  http://www.antichristconspiracy.com/HTML%20Pages/AntichristConspiracyHTML.htm
at the book for the influence and spying of government documents by the Anti Defamation League.

911 was a Mossad operation pulled off by very clever deception, intended to get Americans to fight their war for expansion in the Middle East. Probably they had the help of high administrative American Zionists, and Israeli businessmen. (Logan Airport, cell phone companies.) They also have the sympathy of many Jewish owners, the Trade Center owner who later said building seven was pulled, or demolished with a controlled explosion. Funny that's what the towers looked like too.

Somebody in Israel knew, how else can you explain that only one Israeli died in the Trade Center collapse? Odigo sent out a warning it was going to happen. You say but there were many American Jews who died in the collapse. I agree. ZIONISTS WANT THE JEWS TO MOVE TO ISRAEL!

Judaism puts God as supreme. Zionism puts the expansion of the state of Israel as Supreme.

I just finished reading "....Omissions & Distortions" 21.Apr.2005 08:55

Anarchy-nonymous

Griffin is a fairly dry writer compared to some other writers on the subject, but as an academic exercise it's probably the best point-by-point analysis of the 9/11 Commission Report. He does a great job of not putting any bias into the book, making it as expository as books of this nature can be.

The only real conclusion that can be drawn from the book, and hence it's title, is that the 9/11 Commission Report was beyond all reasonable doubt a whitewash meant to protect the Administration and perhaps even justify changes that would make the intelligences services LESS responsive to the public, which we've seen happen since it was published.

My own opinion having studied both the official accounts and the more academic texts on the subject for the last three years is that, Yes, members of the Bush Admin were at least complicit in allowing a terrorist attack they knew was coming to occur for their own personal reasons. We have a treasonist Executive Administration in Power and an appeasing Congress made up mostly of self-interested twits who cling to the party line because they don't have the moral character or intellectual capacity to operate independently.

Democracy in the United States has been severely wounded.

flight 77 21.Apr.2005 18:17

watcher #5209

if flight 77 hit the pentagon, it would have to leave the airport first, but according to the bureau of transportation statistics, it never did. On their website(last I checked), flight 77 is scheduled every day for weeks leading to 9/11. On the day of, it doesn't even appear on the register. On 9/12, it appears back in the register again but without scheduled flights of course.

you could assume this is an accident or on purpose, but the other flights have scheduled departures, travel times, lift off time, runway time, etc on 9/11, except for flight 11. Again with that flight, the same thing happens. On the day of 9/11, it's not even in the register. No zeros, no line entry, nada.

they also lied about the departure of flight 93, we were told it was "late", not according to the bureau. Maybe that is why senator dayton called the norad timeline a lie.

But you know what really makes the feds, trolls, and corp. PR people mad. When you ask them to show you the confiscated video from the pentagon. Because that has the proof on it, if it still exists, with these sickos, I'm sure it does. Picture them at the grove patting each other on the back while they watch it in slow motion toasting each other's success. After the cremation of care, all is well.

I don't need to prove to anyone that flight 77 DID NOT hit the pentagon.(by an amateur pilot who learned on cesnas, through downtown, on a 270 degree turn hitting a part of the building that was being remodeled, that most seasoned vets couldn't do)

Untill someone can show ME the video/s from the pentagon and a 757 crashing into the side, then bush and his family of bottom feeding social climbers can live in their tin foil fantasy world of terrorists, mushroom clouds, and the liberal media forever. The sun will still shine tomorrow but the bush legacy will always be tainted with the cloud of murder, rape, fraud, and lies. Just like it has been since the 40's.

infiltrate-collaborate-resist-survive

Flight 77 and the Pentagon 21.Apr.2005 18:48

Scott

I'm on the fence regarding Flight 77 and the Pentagon. My question is, if you've got an American Airlines 757 ramming into the Pentagon, then where are the videos, federal government? The ones from the Citgo gas station, the Sheraton hotel, and the Virginia DOT camaras? Not to mention the ones all around the Pentagon. This area is very heavily surveilanced by camaras. Will we ever get to see them? Let's just put an end to all this nonense now. Unfornutally, we'll probably never see them.

Griffin talk from 2004 video below, and more 9-11 video/audio 21.Apr.2005 23:34

reposter

Following are many of the best 911-Truth audio/video clips, effective for initiating contacts who remain asleep/incredulous to the awful truth.
Please consider copy/pasting the following to your entire email contact list, with a personal note encouraging them to forward it to their contacts.

Interpersonal, 'viral' propagation of the truth of 911 is nearly all we have left-- with the politicians, courts, & media totally co-opted by TPTB (The Powers That Be).

Also consider posting this to internet messageboards of all varieties. Right-click/Save-As audio/video links to save them to your computer, from where you can burn them to CD and distribute to aquaintences who may not otherwise view them.

--------
David Ray Griffin's "New Pearl Harbor", full text online:
 http://vancouver.indymedia.org/news/2004/06/141355.php

David Ray Griffin's talk on his book "911 Commission: Ommissions and Distortions" (QuickTime movie, 1 hour, 47.5 MB):
 http://movies12.archive.org/0/movies/drgriffin/drgriffinon911commission.mov

Michael Ruppert's 8/31/04 speech to San Francisco Commonwealth Club re "Crossing The Rubicon", his book on 911-Truth, oil, and US Empire (MP3s, 29 mins, 10 MBs each):
Part 1:
 http://media.globalpublicmedia.com/RM/2004/08/Ruppert.Commonwealth.20040831-1.mp3
Part 2:
 http://media.globalpublicmedia.com/RM/2004/08/Ruppert.Commonwealth.20040831-2.mp3
Transcript:
 http://www.globalpublicmedia.com/transcripts/159

Michael Ruppert radio interview 2/14/05 re 911, Oil, and the financial markets (MP3, 49 mins, 22.2 MBs):
 http://media.globalpublicmedia.com/RM/2005/02/KZYX.MichaelRuppert.ElsCooperrider.2005-02-14.mp3

Webster G. Tarpley 3/27/05 radio interview re his book: "Synthetic Terror: Made in USA" (MP3, 29 mins, 13.3 MBs):
 http://www.suesupriano.com/audio/webstertarpley.mp3

Dan Rather remarks on the strange collapse of WTC-7 (MPEG 35 seconds, 1.3 MB):
 http://www.911research.com/wtc/evidence/videos/docs/wtc_7_cbs.mpg

Bush lying about 911 morning, "...the TV was obviously on" (RealPlayer, 1 minute, 880 KB):
 http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/bushsawfirstplane1.ram

Bush fumbles a softball press question about 911 foreknowledge (MPEG, 43 seconds, 7.2 MB):
 http://images.indymedia.org/imc/washingtondc/media/video/6/9_11laugh.mpg

Firemen recall "detonations" in South Tower (MPEG, 29 seconds, 4.8 MB):
 http://www.911research.com/wtc/evidence/videos/docs/discussion_in_firehouse.mpg

Animated image (.gif) of WTC-7 collapse. Good for posting to messageboards where posting images is possible:
 http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/SMALL_wtc-7_1_.gif

Fake terror staged by governments is nothing new. See the US Government's since declassified "Operation Northwoods" scheme (PDF, 780 KB):
 http://www.prisonplanet.com/northwoods.pdf

Bilderberg Group, a key element of the "shadow government" which rules much of the Western World, discussed by BBC Radio (MP3, 28 mins, 4.8 MB):
 http://www.propagandamatrix.com/bbc_radio_4_bilderberg.mp3

VIDEO: Down the Memory Hole: Carl Cameron's TV story about 9-11 Israeli Spy Ring in U.S. by OUTFOXER Friday, Apr. 15, 2005 at 4:55 PM
First it was poor journalism for FOX to entirely purge the story from their websites. Then it was found they even purged it from THEIR OFFICIAL ARCHIVES. Something interesting worth looking at in these videos, I say. Next, FOX has even threatened other areas on the internet, like the non-profit website whatreallyhappened.com, to remove it! I suggest you populate this all over the internet because it shows that rogue Israelis working with U.S. traitors did 9-11 instead of "Arabs." "...far more telling is the admission made by a US Official (in part one) quoted in the Fox News report that hard evidence exists linking 9/11 not to Arab Muslims, but to some of the 200+ Israeli spies arrested both before and after 9/11, however, this Israeli=911 evidence had been CLASSIFIED.
 http://www.indybay.org/uploads/part1.movwsxq0x.mov
 http://www.indybay.org/uploads/part2.mov1au9yl.mov
 http://www.indybay.org/uploads/part3.movs6kxlk.mov
 http://www.indybay.org/uploads/part4.movor0zll.mov
 http://www.indybay.org/news/2005/04/1733293.php

From a sceptical mind to another. 23.Apr.2005 09:46

Tom

Cool down Snazmo; You have already broke down the mental barrier and reject the Official Story about the WTC. Ie, that relatively insignificant fires neatly collapsed those landmark buildings, (unprecedent itself in history), and 'collapsed' so speedely almost like it had happened in a vacuum, neatly shredding enormosly strong and intact steel structures (4" thick structural steel beams at the bottom) not offering any resistance against the so called pancake effect at all, meanwhile concrete slabs pulverized into rapidly expanding clouds of microscopic particles and all this -according to the Official Story- without any other help, or accelerator. Without naming the anomalies of the Pentagon attack -at least 20 major ones- look them over again, with the same critical reasoning mind, you exercised in the case of WTC attack. I am shure you will agree that those who debunked the Official -fairy tale- Stories are not idiots, but quite the opposite.
Good luck;

Booby Trap for 9/11 Skeptics - ANY 'NO PLANE' THEORY 23.Apr.2005 15:11

repost

Simply put, ANY theory that includes the idea that there was 'No Plane' at any of the target sites is disinformation and an easy way to try to take down the 9/11 movement as being nutcases.

Theories that speculate about planes with no windows, tanker planes, missiles, etc. have almost ZERO evidence and only serve to taint the research efforts at this point. While everyone should research whatever they are interested in, they should be aware of the many ways that the pushing of the public awareness of research with zero evidence has been used repeatedly to take down the movement:


The Pentagon No-757-Crash Theory:
Booby Trap for 9/11 Skeptics
by Jim Hoffman
first published: October 7, 2004
revised: November 15, 2004

The idea that no 757 crashed at the Pentagon is easily the most controversial and divisive issue among researchers of the 9/11/01 attacks. Effectively promoted since early 2002, this idea has enjoyed an increasing acceptance in the 9/11 Truth Movement, despite its blatant incompatibility with the extensive body of eyewitness evidence that a 757-like twin-engine jetliner flew into the Pentagon and exploded.
 http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/pentagontrap.html

About Divisiveness 24.Apr.2005 05:51

Witness #538

Despite all the great research done I don't think any one person definitively knows what happened at the Pentagon or the WTC or that feild in Pennsylvania. Because NO ONE absolutley knows I do not rule out the "no plane at pentagon" theory. Eyewitness testimony is not enough, and is often contradicted. For instance, some FAA aircontrollers say the object flying towards the Pentagon was not a civillian jetliner.

Until video tapes are released and/or physical debri displayed I will not perpetuate divisiveness by saying that "no plane at Pentagon" theorists are being dishonest.

For me the 911 Truth movement is about whether questions are being asked at all.

Researching vs Propaganda Campaigns - Two Very Different Things 24.Apr.2005 14:21

repost

>>Despite all the great research done I don't think any one person definitively knows what happened at the Pentagon or the WTC or that feild in Pennsylvania. Because NO ONE absolutley knows I do not rule out the "no plane at pentagon" theory.

The problem with 911 activists sitting by on this issue is the same as the other issues which turned out to be hardcore disinfo - the UNFOUNDED THEORIES (not proclamations that we don't know what happened) are pushed as hard as possible to the front lines of the media in Flash animations that have 800 operators standing by, in films like In Plane Site that have blatant mistakes throughout, in screaming postings on Indymedia, etc.

These efforts pushing THEORIES WITH VIRTUALLY ZERO EVIDENCE to support them then wind up on the front pages of the Washington Post, the NYTimes and Popular Mechanics, trashing the whole movment. These are disinfo Propaganda Campaigns and they are very different from valid research which relies on real science, not single frames of video or a priori 'hypotheses' that require doing away with over 100 eye witness testimonies to the contrary.

It's one thing to say - 'I don't know what happened' - and a very different thing to say - 'I have no real evidence outside of a single frame of a fuzzy video but I'd bet my life on it that THIS is what happened and if you disagree with me you're a fascist!' - which is what most of the disinfo people do.

The better response is to say, 'I feel like we don't know what happened at the Pentagon, but I don't think we should push a no plane theory on the US public without a great deal more evidence to support such a claim, which goes against the huge body of eyewitness testimony.'

The many many eyewitnesses who saw a commercial jet are here:

 http://eric.bart.free.fr/iwpb/witness.html