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9.11 investigation

Madrid fire heats up 9-11 debate

Unlike the twin trade towers (and WTC 7), this 32 story steel beamed building remains standing after burning for 17 hours straight. Does steel act differently in Spain or are we confronted with yet another 9-11 anomoly?
Check out these photos for yourself.  http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3...
How can a steel beamed building sustain hours and hours of fire without collapsing? Afterall, we were told that the reason the World Trade Center towers fell after only two hours was due to fire. The FEMA report and 9-11 Commission report admitted that the buildings were designed to withstand the impact from airplanes, so we were told fire was the cause of their pancake- like collapse. Now, however, that conclusion comes under even more suspicion. To see and hear more information that contradicts the official version of 9-11, go to the video showing and discussion this Saturday, Feb. 19th from noon to 8pm at the Friends Meeting House on SE Start at 43rd in Portland. Special bonus screening of Votescam at 2pm.

add a comment on this article

yeah, I've been studying those pictures 16.Feb.2005 18:07


It's a blaze that makes the WTC look like nothing, burns for far longer, and like every other steel building that has ever burned (excepting WTC 1 and 2) the steel structure remained standing.

Well, what can I say... 16.Feb.2005 20:54

Tony Blair's dog

God works in mysterious ways ;-)

Remember Caracas Venezuela? 17.Feb.2005 06:16

eyes closed tight

That building was larger then madrid(closer to wtc7), very outdated building codes(talking caracas here), floors actually collapsed, and my my my...look at what we have here.
it burns during the day
it burns during the day
it burns during the night
it burns during the night
wow, looks pretty hot to me
wow, looks pretty hot to me

more 17.Feb.2005 06:18



and more 17.Feb.2005 06:19



now that we know what a towering inferno really looks like 17.Feb.2005 06:27

mr. tyn foyle hatz

Maybe we need to see what a demolition looks like again.


Then we might want to take a look at this and draw some conclusions.

a demolition in D.C.
a demolition in D.C.
What does he know, why did he resign, and why did the fbi investigate him?
What does he know, why did he resign, and why did the fbi investigate him?

story 17.Feb.2005 07:48

U. Sam

Two floors in the building, and several staircases, collapsed as the fire spread through 26 of the skyscraper's 56 floors, forcing the evacuation of neighboring buildings.-Cbs OCT 14, 2004

Towering Inferno In Caracas

Military helicopters doused one of Venezuela's tallest buildings with water Sunday, bringing under control a blaze many feared might cause the tower to collapse.

Earlier, nearby residences and businesses were evacuated. Two floors and some staircases in the building collapsed. But by Sunday afternoon, the temperature inside the burning building had dropped, lessening the danger of a collapse, Caracas fire chief Rodolfo Briceno said.

"Engineers have gone up there and inspected" the building, Briceno said, adding that "it is very solid."

Neighbors of the 56-story, 730-foot office tower were allowed to return to their residential buildings in downtown Caracas' Parque Central complex Sunday afternoon, but firefighters expected to work through the night to extinguish the last flames and keep them from spreading.

The blaze began before midnight Saturday on the 34th floor of the East Tower in the complex, Briceno said. By Sunday afternoon, it had burned for more 17 hours and spread over 26 floors, reaching the roof. The complex was built in 1976 and is considered a Caracas landmark.

The building was empty when the fire broke out, but 40 firefighters were injured when they inhaled poisonous gases, fire officials said. Their condition was not immediately known and Briceno did not say what might have caused the fire.

The high temperatures also stopped firefighters from reaching the tower's upper floors, where the fire was strongest. Military troops and rescue teams were brought in to help, and military helicopters flew over the building, dropping water on the tower, which houses government offices and ministries.

Firefighters' efforts were also hampered by malfunctioning water pumps and the lack of fire extinguishers inside the building as fire laws are not strictly enforced in Venezuela.

Earlier in the day, officials expressed fears that the building might collapse.

"There is a problem because the building is made of steel. Because of the high temperatures, the structure could collapse," Interior minister Jesse Chacon told President Hugo Chavez during his weekly radio and television show.

More than 100 paintings and sculptures in the contemporary art museum next to the tower were put into a vault for safekeeping, a museum official said.


Caracas Tower Floor Beams Deflected But Did Not Collapse

Sources studying the 225-meter-tall East Tower of the Parque Central in Caracas say it appears that floor beams in the most-damaged areas of the tower did not collapse, as previously reported, but deflected during the Oct. 15 fire. Suppliers of the fireproofing on the tower?s intermediate steel frames report the material did not contain asbestos.

The origin of the fire on the 34th floor, where crews had been painting, is still under investigation by a "technical-scientific" subcommission. Caracas Fire Chief Rodolfo Briceno says progress is slow because of the danger implicit in the inspection. Sources are skeptical the report will be out this week as promised.

Briceno says ceilings are no longer "falling down," and cranes with 225-m-long booms are removing debris from the building. Floors 34 to 49 of the 56-story building will have to be demolished and rebuilt, says Briceno.

The situation is politically charged, say sources. The central and local governments, controlled by different political parties, are warring over blame for the blaze that burned for nearly a day in the nation?s tallest tower (ENR 10/25 p. 12). The building is owned and maintained by the central government but it is in the city?s jurisdiction. Briceno has been asked to step down in what is considered a politically motivated move. He will be replaced this week by Francis de Morales.

In the fire, sprinklers and standpipes reportedly did not function, due to poor maintenance. "They were on-off sprinklers, which are no longer in use," says Jaime A. Moncada, director of International Fire Safety Consulting, Bogota, Colombia.

Moncada is documenting the fire for the National Fire Protection Association,Quincy, Mass. He spent a week in Caracas, beginning Oct. 16, interviewing fire officials, pouring over photos of the interior and attempting, in vain, to gain entry to the site. Instead, he studied the building from the twin West Tower.

The building?s interior is in "terrible" shape," he says, adding he has never anything "this bad" in his 20 years as a fire protection engineer working in Latin America.

Moncada has been told most on-off sprinklers had been turned off. Others, not those on the fire floors, had been replaced by "temperature-activated pendant sprinklers," the current standard.

Fireproofing on the 25-year-old building?s steel framing was the patented CAFCO Blaze-Shield DC/F, consisting primarily of mineral wool and portland cement. Beam fireproofing was 1 in. thick and deck fireproofing 1┌2 in. thick. "It was installed by ATA C.A. to U.S. standards," says Bijou Ganguly, a director of ISOLATEK International, the Stanhope, N.J., supplier.

The sprinkler failure has fueled the debate over passive versus active structural fire protection. "You have to have [and maintain] sprinklers, and you have to have fireproofing," says Moncada.


Other Skyscraper Fires

Caracas Fire Supports WTC Demolition

There are two major differences... 17.Feb.2005 12:20

Tony Blair's dog

between the Caracas- and 9/11-incidents...

The owners of the tower in Caracas did not
want to demolish their building.

The owner of the WTC complex(Silverstein) wanted to demolish
the towers since he wanted to construct new buildings there
that would give him bigger money(higher leasing fees).

The study of what such a demolition would cost came to
the conclusion that it would likely end at $5 billion
(including the dangerous asbestos removal).

On 9/11 Silverstein got it all for free. He actually "earned"
$3.5 billion in insurance money, a first in that kind of case,
since he just weeks before the demolition had managed to
get a clause added to his insurance(a clause that normally
would be very very hard to get with ), the
clause added "terrorist attacks" to causes that would
entitle him to insurance money.

All in all the 9/11 "terrorist attacks"(sic) earned Silverstein
the nice sum of $7.5 billion, letting Silverstein build a new
corporate complex "for FREE" and even granting himself a giant
(in the billions) "reward".

More reading here:

WTC Owner May Make a Huge Profit off of 9/11 Attacks

Controlling Interests
Ownership, Control, and Insurance of The World Trade Center

Thanks TBD 17.Feb.2005 19:29

U. Sam

I knew of the "double payment", but I did not read about the "terrorist clause". This country is not even worth saving. 3rd world looks better every day. Maybe switzerland. Whose handing out political asylum passes?

C'mon guys, do some research! 18.Feb.2005 22:37


The World Trade Center was constructed differently from most other steel skyskrapers in that it used a "tube" design instead of the typical "grid" design. The tube design places most of the vertical structural support on the outer wall. Floors are supported, not by a grid of columns and beams, but by thin steel trusses that connect the inner core to the outer wall. These trusses are not the typical beams you see in skyskrapers. They are thin and lightweight. They are just strong enough to support the floor and collectively provide horizontal support to keep the beams in the outer wall from "bulging out" and snapping.

This design was radical at the time and enabled significant cost savings. However, it also led to the collapse of the WTC. The thin steel trusses supporting the floors melted easily in the heat. As floors collapsed inside the building, the horizontal support for the outerwall disappeared. This caused beams along the outer wall at a critical juncture to snap. Since the outerwall provided most of the support, the upper part of the building started to collapse. As it collapsed the floors inside this tube began to pancake down on top of one another. Without a redundant grid of inner beams, there was little to interrupt this progressive pancaking and collapse.

There is a great Nova documentary that goes into detail on why the towers collapse. There is also a great book called "Why Buildings Fall Down" that explains why some structures fail more easily than others.

Nice try mr."HurleyG" 19.Feb.2005 03:01

Tony Blair's dog

spinning the Bush administration fairy-tales.

"The World Trade Center was constructed differently from most other steel skyskrapers in that it used a "tube" design instead of the typical "grid" design. The tube design places most of the vertical structural support on the outer wall."


The big bulk of the WTC towers support was around the central core.

"These trusses are not the typical beams you see in skyskrapers. They are thin and lightweight."


"The thin steel trusses supporting the floors melted easily in the heat."

False. The trusses were protected by a 10 cm thick lightweight concrete slab.
You also try to gloss over the fact that the fire-chiefs who had climbed
the stairs up to the floors where the impact happened reported that they
only saw limited spots of fire and ordered over the radio for the stuff
they needed to put them out.

You should take your own advice and do some research.

Start with these pages:

WTC 1 and WTC 2
(thoroughly debunking the "official" fairy-tales)


The 'Truss Theory': A Fantasy Concocted to Conceal a Demolition

The 9/11 WTC Collapses: An Audio-Video Analysis


Scientific Anomalies of the WTC Collapse

Here is a big clue to who pulled the towers:
Missing Evidence of the World Trade Center Attack

Sorry, you loose.

HurleyG - new age physicist 19.Feb.2005 17:15


You should grow up, pal.

How can 47 re-enforced steel core columns "pancake"?

Please tell us about this new physics you have discovered. Asshole.

Yes, Government propaganda can be had quite easily 19.Feb.2005 17:31


"There is a great Nova documentary that goes into detail on why... "
hahaha, hehehehe, NOVA! That's rich!

The History Channel is running some pretty typical brainwash tonight too:
The World Trade Center: Rise and Fall of an American Icon
HISTORY 25 Feb 19 09:00pm

The WTC implosion was totally an inside job. Let's get on with the arrests and trials.

losers 19.Feb.2005 17:33

The reality Man

You guys are all pathetic, give me a break. I hope you all move out of this country. You don't deserve to live here. Go get car bombed in Iraq!!!

car bombs 19.Feb.2005 17:51


Are these car bombers payrolled by the same people, which spread the same lies about Iraq and WMD or those, who realised the same lies?

If so, they should better bomb the shit out of your brain, ignorant fascist!!

i heart america, just not what people like you make us look like 19.Feb.2005 18:30

melissa bubbabrusky@hotmail.com

actually we all deserve to live here. do not tell me because i do not believe the govt or mass media that i am not a true american. actually sir. to me, you are the non-american. you are ignorant and very close-minded and obviously can not see that america stands for the truth behind govt assholery. look at FACTS not at ASS.
something i just made up. its so easy to just make up things.. like wmd and "hussein is behing al queda" so eeeasssyyy

Reality Man in Wonderland with Alice 19.Feb.2005 18:35


Shit-for-brains zombies like you always confuse "country" with "government". The U.S. government is now a treasonous, highly criminal organization which is a threat to all life on this planet - and that includes your fantasy, brainwashed life, dumbass.

Burning buildings 19.Feb.2005 18:35

Peter Fimmel pjf@it.net.au

In New York you get a bonus. Two building caught fire and three fell down on 9/11. I wonder who had the security contract for the WTC buildings?

Yep, one of the Bush creatures 19.Feb.2005 19:10


What a family! We Americans should be real proud to have such a family born and raised in this once-good country of ours.

A single name that can be directly linked to the Third Reich, the US military industrial complex, Skull and Bones, Eastern Establishment good ol' boys, the Illuminati, Big Texas Oil, the Bay of Pigs, the Miami Cubans, the Mafia, the FBI, the JFK assassination, the New World Order, Watergate, the Republican National Committee, Eastern European fascists, the Council on Foreign Relations, the Trilateral Commission, the United Nations, CIA headquarters, the October Surprise, the Iran/Contra scandal, Inslaw, the Christic Institute, Manuel Noriega, drug-running "freedom fighters" and death squads, Iraqgate, Saddam Hussein, weapons of mass destruction, the blood of innocents, the savings and loan crash, the Bank of Credit and Commerce International, the "Octopus," the "Enterprise," the Afghan mujaheddin, the War on Drugs, Mena (Arkansas), Whitewater, Sun Myung Moon, the Carlyle Group, Osama bin Laden and the Saudi royal family, David Rockefeller, Henry Kissinger, and the presidency and vice-presidency of the United States, is: George Herbert Walker Bush.

Aviation Fueled Fire ? 19.Feb.2005 19:48

EPM 3000

The discussions and illustrations of both the Caracas and Madrid fires were informative. However, no one has made any suggestion what the difference to those fires the impact of a 300,000 lb. flying bomb would have made when close to 200,000 of that weight was composed of a very volatile component such as the W.T.C. aviation fuel? EPM

who's that guy? 19.Feb.2005 20:49


Mr. Tyn foyle hatz,

What is the name of individual wearing glasses who is pictured in your post?

US Gov Says Trash Fire Imploded the WTC Not Jet Fuel 19.Feb.2005 20:59


For EPM 3000
I can see how your question might come to mind. It sounds as if you're honestly asking without having looked into this before.

Jet fuel, AKA kerosene, burns very quickly. Neither tower imploded until at least 1/2 an hour after impact. In fact the north tower experienced an explosion large enough to burst at least the top 20 stories. I felt the shockwave from this blast at a distance of 1/2 mile. So here we have a very strong explosion 1/2 an hour after impact that requires an explanation.

Even the US Gov admits that after 1/2 an hour all jet fuel would have been used up. More than likely within 10 minutes after impact. So what explanation is assigned? We are told that office trash is what made the fire last that long. And the explosions were never reported in the MSM, although I have pictures of them and you can see some really good ones at  http://www.reopen911.org/
When looking at the pictures keep in mind that the US Gov say these explosions were caused by burning office trash.

The more we dig into the facts the more it is clear that the US Gov made 9/11 happen. Signing off, good night.

P.S. It was actually in the design specs of the WTC that they be built to withstand the impact of a jet-liner.

"When Lenin died, all children HAD to cry at school..." 19.Feb.2005 21:16


"...Those who did not, were made to. By force if neccessary."
//This was what a friend of mine told me earlier today.

Hearing this, made my stomach turn with disbelief. The very same
feeling strikes me when I read about the 9-11 "attack". The whole
thing is so absurd, that I wonder when the american people is going
to wake up and march to reclaim the whitehouse. (You CAN do it.)

"Four score and... "
...Never mind, just help the rest of the world prevent WW3. Please?

Btw... Spot any likeness? (Trust me, the rest of the world does.)
- Bush : "May god bless our great nation as we go to war against the evil."
- Laden: "Allah Akbar, Jihad onto the infidels" (excuse the spelling)

Citizen of Sweden

Funny to see the trolls and patriots on here 19.Feb.2005 21:51


We must be doing a great job! Thanks to the poster of this one . ..They're trying every one of their idiotic ploys to derail the truth that people see in front of them, and the fire situations are the worst thing that could possibly have happened to them . . . their cover-up is washed up.

But the trolls, agents, spooks, patriots, et al aren't waiting around for discussion boards, they're coming to a bookstore near you to trash the 'conspiracy theorists' and lay down the law on the real official story - all a BIG MISTAKE from a CIA reeling with exhaustion from reform!

See my post here about the latest recently-former CIA agent to come out and tell us the truth we've all be dying to hear! Guess what? It was all a big mistake!


Some people have been observed taking direct deception dollar action at bookstores featuring CIA writers . . .

Controlled Implosion 19.Feb.2005 22:32

Claire cdifrances@aol.com

I watched the collapse of the Twin Towers. It was a controlled implosion. Nothing more, nothing less.

I watched the collapse of the Sears Tower in my home city over and over. Even bought a framed photo of that sad event.

There is "NO WAY" that the jet fuel from either of those planes could have melted the steel framework of two 110 story buildings. It's like saying that igniting a shot of cognac on your coffee could melt the entire cup!!

Oh MY GOD!!! 19.Feb.2005 22:45


You people actually believe your own conspiracy crap. I'm sure there are tons of websites you can point me to about the Loch Ness Monster, Alien Abductions, Big Foot, JFK Conspiracies. So they must be true. Anything that denies their existence, must be some type of coverup. You long for something more in this world and some greater explanation for things in your pathetic little lives. Talking this nonsense gives you some sense of greater purpose. Guess what, you don't and won't ever know the absolute truth about anything. This is all an illusion. You don't really exist. I don't exist.


Oh No!! I believe everything that President Bush says!! 19.Feb.2005 23:16


President Bush wouldn't tell a lie. He didn't chop down that cherry tree ... it was that other George who admitted to it ... and that's all there is to it!!

All that aviation fuel... 19.Feb.2005 23:25

Big Guy

More of the "aviation fuel" argument. First, the jets that crashed into the WTC were not fully-loaded with fuel. Even if the tanks were "topped off" before take offs, a good portion of the gas was consumed during ascent and acceleration. Second, the jets went into descent and were speeding along at over 500mph as practically sea level which sucks up great quantities of fuel. Third, when the planes hit the towers, the fuel, which was travelling at 500mph continued through the building, breaking the windows and exploding into giant fireballs!!!! Did all that fast-travelling fuel suddenly stop in less than 208 feet and remain as a giant fuel pool in the buidings??? Logically "no" but since so many laws of physics were broken that day, anything is possible...
Jet fuel DOES NOT burn....the fumes burn!
And to the dingaling above who said the outer columns supported the weight of the buildings. You've been watching too much TV. I know it was stated but I'll state it again: The vertical load was carried by the massive steel columns in the core sections The "tube" design was for wind-load stability, i.e. horizontal load. The designers stated the towers could remain standing even with over 50% of the perimiter columns torn apart.

Jet Fuel Fire in the WTC 19.Feb.2005 23:28

Mack (when i started engineering school we only had slide ru

Here is one simple little calculation anyone can do in their own homes provided they have a mathematical education of a 8th grade level in Japan or 12th grade or possibly junior college in the USA. You may do this "long hand" the pencil and paper method or use a calculator to speed up your results. Originally I based this calculation on 25,000 gals of jet fuel, JETA1 (or basically kerosene or charcoal lighter fluid) this was the volume of fuel that was the most widely reported and accepted amount when i undertook this task. Now we know that the area of the WTC was 1 acre so if you uniformly spread 25,000 gallons across 1 acre of area what is the resultant height of the fluid level? Now i did not subtract the area for the core of the building which contained the elevators and mechanical chases etc etc. I was merely looking for a relative (ball park comparison) fluid height ........... and what do you think i came up with? Jet fuel to your knees? Ankles? Kind of covers your feet?
Alas and dissapointment really set in when my calculation arrived at a mere 0.070" or just slightly greater than 1/16th of an inch 0.0625"
or about 1.5mm for any metric based reader. I was even further dissapointed to learn that my original claculation should have been based on 10,000 gallons of fuel. But it does not even really matter what the volume of fuel was this was only intended to be a simple task anyone could accomplish and gain some insight as to the realtionship of the amount of fuel involved and the size of the buildings. Now when some super smart bright guy/gal tells you that the jet fuel poured all the way down the elevator shafts pooled at the bottom of those 47 box beam core supports and melted them you can say "BUT WAIT A SECOND BUCKO I DID A CALCULATION!" And smugly show them your results.

Believing or not believing... 19.Feb.2005 23:41

Yammo, Citizen of Sweden.

Best Mr HurleyG,

On the contrary to your belief, I am actually very critic of the facts I
am told. Be it told by "conspiracy sites", Fox Network, or the village fool.
And... There are alot of information this and other sites like this one that
I find a bit "out there".(read "without proof".)

But, theese are the questions that dont quite match up with my knowledge of
the world.(I'm 32 years old, so I do have "some" knowledge.)

Pentagon pictures:
- Where is the plane?(Body,chairs,Engines,Passangers
- On a few pictures&movies, there is a small hole in the wall of
pentagon large enough for the fuselage of a boeing, but there are
NO marks from the wings on the wall outside.

"Building No.7"
- Steelbuildings DONT fall because of fire!
But, yet this one came crashing down from some small fires?
Why was it burning in the first place? its' 2 blocks from the TT.
And, dont you have sprinklersystems in US?

The re-election of Bush
- Now this is the ten-thousand dollar question.
And, it alone would be enough to make me read more about him, to
understand what on earth made you vote for him, AGAIN!?!
Since he is one of the least charismatic "leaders" I have ever seen,
I have to conclude that he is doing something good for the people.
But... I have yet to find a single thing that has become better for
the poor citizens of the US under his dictat... *cough* ...rule.

The United States is always trying to save the world from this or that
acting like the allknowing big brother? But I wonder who should really
be saving whom.

(About Aliens, now... that's a theory, as good as any... Why dont you ask your
government to release the survailancetapes so we can see if it really was the
aliens. ;)

Learn some physics and common sense... 20.Feb.2005 00:18


You guys take half-truths and interpolate them to support some nutty conspiracies. Not all building are designed the same way or collapse in the same timeframes or manner. Yes, the building did remain standing with a big chunk of the outer wall torn apart as the designers had anticipated. The structural engineer admitted that while they considered the impact of a plane, they did not consider the effects of the resulting fire and the subsequent failure of the floor supports. (Or I guess they are part of your grand conspiracy too.) The WTC could not stand without horizontal support between core and outer wall or the failure of a very large section of the outerwall. And yes, the jet feul did burn quickly and end up out the windows, but along the way, they ignited everything on the floor.

Again, prove me wrong! You can't! I can't prove you guys wrong, either because no one will ever know the absolute truth and no one is going to find the truth on the Internet! And if you do, no one's going to believe you. So, stop wasting your time looking for elaborate conspiracies and get a life. And yes, SPACE ALIENS DID BRING DOWN THE TOWERS. Again, prove me wrong!

About the Alien theory 20.Feb.2005 00:29


HurleyG is a government stooge, but there is hard evidence that aliens may have been involved in 9-11. The idea that terrorists with no experience flying jumbo jets at 500 mph could steer the planes into the building is difficult to believe. These planes were probably guided by powerful forces beyond our understanding. Radar indicated hovering objects near the towers minutes before each crash. The hovering objects could be seen in earlier footage that was distributed on the Internet and then carefully disguised as a promo for the Sci-Fi channel. This was not a promo, but the real thing. The fire probably did not bring down these buildings. The reason fireman radios did not work was that aliens were using strong electromagnetic fields to disturb the steel fabric of the buildings. The aliens wanted these buildings destroyed because a secret government agency in the WTC had been amassing evidence to counter an alien threat. Just like the section of the Pentagon was doing research into alien technology seized over the years. This was also a possible test by aliens for a much larger attack.

talking about facts.... Mr.HurleyG 20.Feb.2005 03:50

barakagaia barakagaia@hotmail.com

How can you be so out of touch with the reality? I guess you must be paid a lot to write all that stupid crap.

Think about this a second.

STOP AND THINK OF THE SPEED OF THE COLLAPE OF THE TWIN TOWERS- this is reason enough to prove without any doubt that explosives, thermite charges, were used to pull the towers down at multiple levels including the basement. Where is the resistance? OF COURSE FIRE DOES NOT MAKE BUILDINGS COLLAPSE in a controlled demolition style IF THEIR 32 STORIES OR 110 STORIES.
Fire guts buildings it doesn't make them collapse in a controlled demolition style. The twin towers (110 stories) were 411 m tall which is roughly 1348 ft tall and the acceleration of gravity is roughly 9.8 meters per second or 32 ft per second; how could both twin towers fall to the ground in less than 10 secs each? that speed of fall would be roughly around 90 ft per second. And that is conservative- AND i am not counting in resistance of the floor below the floor below the floor below the floor that had to crush as it fell down.
Imagine seeing around where you live 7 floors of a building fall in 1 second because that was roughly the speed of the collapse of twin towers. Is that possible? NO its only possible if the towers were imploded with explosives. Who knows they could have used small pinnapple sized mini nukes liked they used at oklahoma. I wouldn't put anything by them. SOZAY
see that big puff of orange, that is your jet fuel. Do you see most of the fuselage coming out the other side and blowing up OUTSIDE of the building. Why did the second tower hit, go down before the first? Surely the raging inferno was hotter in the building hit first no?
How does a building free fall, if the floors are experiencing the popular tin foil hat theory of the "pancake"...c'mon. Boom, boom, boom, floor by floor, with no resistance? perfectly down straight?(which it wasn't at first-look at the top when it first starts to fall) BOTH BUILDINGS EXACTLY THE SAME? Debris shooting out perpendicular almost 200meters. Where is the fire in the building? Firefighters were still climbing(listen to the audio), didn't they know about the raging inferno? NO, because there wasn't one, so they kept climbing.
Take a look inside that hole, do you see an inferno?...and if it went down the elevator shaft, how did people use those to go down?(watch the naudet video) Surely someone on the first floor would of turned on an air conditioner if it was as hot as they say? Everyone looks fine to me, no fires. All of this, in less then a couple of hours?

Most of the jet fuel exploded and burnt OUTSIDE both the wtc towers. the fires inside were not serious and for most of the hour that they were burning were not burning fiercely - note all the black smoke - low density oxygen-starved fires - not hot enough to "melt steel" and it was possible even for people to have survived in there - photo evidence exists of people standing in the gaping holes - alive.

Now, how can you explain that the concrete turned to micro particle of dust???? Please, do that test for yourself: drop a block of concrete from a 400m high building, and tell me if it turn to fine particle dust like it did on 9-11!!!!

And explain me why the steel was melted at the base of the WTC if it collapsed!

Oh, by the way, I'm an architect, and I can tell you that you are just plainly wrong when you talk about the structure of the WTC. You make yourself look like a fool... if it wasn't that you really are....

Concrete not Steel 20.Feb.2005 05:21

TomF. plenum222@yahoo.com

Hi, All...

I live in Madrid, just north of Plaza Castilla (Barrio del Pilar) and I can assure you that the structure is made of concrete, not steel. News reports were that the fire's temperature reached 1000 Centigrade (Farenheit? I don't know what it would be) and did collapse some of the external supports.

Photo enclosed is a telephoto of the lower half of the Winsor bldg and which can make out what is the concrete.

Large, I mean huge cranes have been brought in to dismantle the thing piece by piece.

Madrid, Spain.


Are the producers of NOVA government agents? 20.Feb.2005 05:49

John Harrington

Can someone just calm down and explain it to me? I saw the NOVA doc, which was entirely well-reasoned and rational. I've seen the websites, which seem rash and poorly supported. Two of the arguments supporting the demolition theory seem to be as follows:

1. Explosions are clearly seen popping out of the sides of the TTs shortly before collapse. The "explosions" are not clear to me and all the puffs of smoke seem to result *from* the collapse, not vice versa. Everything I see in those videos looks like the natural consequence of thousands of tons of steel and concrete collapsing and the consequent massive release of energy.

2. Skyscrapers simply don't collapse from fire...look at the Madrid tower. Skyscrapers are normally not hit by massive airliners traveling a top speeds. They don't normally have thousands of gallons of jet fuel dumped on them. Structural engineers have looked at why the towers collapsed and not concluded that there was a secret demolition. And they never based their arguments on steel beams "melting".

Response to John Harrington 20.Feb.2005 06:54

Hugh Mayle

Wt7 was not struck by any airplanes. Wt7 had no aviation fuel in or around it. Wt7 collapsed straight to the ground.

Also, the NYC Firemen on the scene report many explosions being heard. Here's the link:  http://www.wnbc.com/news/1315651/detail.html.

(WNBC.com probably isn't a rash site, and certainly it's well supported!)

Still has steel 20.Feb.2005 08:51

Big Guy

Re: TomF
Yup, the WIndsor in Madrid has concrete columns and support but there is steel in the concrete...the rebars!!!! Don't forget First Interstate (now Aon) in Los Angeles back in 1988. That's a steel-framed tower (62 stories) that burned for a longer period than either of the WTCs but did not collapse.

WTC 7 Collapse cannot be explained 20.Feb.2005 08:58


Absolutely true. The WTC 7 building came down like a retired Las Vegas casino. There is no cause for this type of collapse in the official conspiracy theory. This plan by expremists is our own government has been in place for quite some time.

While your at it, check out the government explanation for the extensive local new reporting of two sophisticated remote controlled bombs that did not detonate in the Murrah Federal Building atrocity. Oh, these were "dummy bombs" used for training. Planted at key structural supports? The same day half the building was vaporized by a different type bomb? Right.

The march toward fascism has been on through the past several administrations. Whether its all about Peak Oil and controlling the population in an era of the break down of civil order when the lights go out or some other reason (catastrosphic effects of global warming, perhaps), the government is empowering itself as never before. The only faith I have left is that the motivation is not only the lust for money and power.

wtc7 fell 20.Feb.2005 09:15

John Harrington

The WNBC site doesn't seem to be drawing any conclusions from the transcripts, which I assume are genuine. I don't think controlled demolition is the only conclusion to draw from those transcripts.

As to wtc7, the fact that it fell, alone, proves nothing. Again, trained structural engineers have looked at the collapses of the TTs, and I assume wtc7 as well, and have not concluded that they were demolished. Why would they lie?

I'm, by the way, far from convinced our government had nothing to do with 911. I suspect strongly that we either allowed it to happen or we had a hand in it. But if I were planning such an event, controlled demolition of the TTs would be the *last* thing I would consider. From the placement of the bombs, to the eye-witnesses, to the investigations by structural engineers that would be sure to follow, there would be far too many opportunities for my plot to be exposed. It just sounds way too far fetched.

Bombs in the MFB 20.Feb.2005 09:20

John Harrington

brisa, can you point me to any legitimate news source that there were actual bombs planted at key structural supports in the Murrah building? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just want to see it for myself. By "legitimate news source" I mean any established news organization in the US or overseas, rather than a conspiracy site.

HurleyG, Just a last word to you... 20.Feb.2005 11:00

Yammo, Citizen of Sweden

Everyone may think what they want.
But humor us... Where is the Pentagon Boeing?
For your own pleasure, take a few minutes and
try to find what noone else can find.

I think you are more likely to find aliens
than any parts from a boeing... ;)

Brainwased Sheep "Hurley G" 20.Feb.2005 11:28

Freedom Fighter

Out of all of the arguments discussed on this forum Hurley G's comments almost drove me to smash my monitor in complete frustration! Consider this simple fact moron. In the Roman times when a detective investigated a crime, the first question he would ask is "qe bono" or who benefited from the crime. I hope i dont have to clarify that statement to someone with such a simple minde as Hurley G's. My final point to all the brainwashed sheep goose stepping on cue is consider the Hegelian Principle. I wont explain that either because maybe these grazing sheep can do some reasearch on their own with an open mind.

Free your minds, turn the TV off!

Re-enforced steel melts at 3000 degrees F. 20.Feb.2005 11:31

I am me

The steel that was used in the construction of the wtc's that collapsed has a melting point of 3000 degrees F. The maximum temprature that JP-8 (jet fuel) burns at is 1800 degrees F. That is assuming that there is there is maximum oxygen available to feed the fire. The fires in the buildings were oxygen difficent due to the somke inside the towers engulfing the flames. This would mean that the fires wouldn't even burn at the max. temp. Instead they were burning at less then its potential 1800 degrees. So how did the fires melt the steel, HurleyG. Use some common sense. Search it for yourself. I have.

Hurley DID research it!! 20.Feb.2005 12:21

Big Guy

No doubt about it. His research includes CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN, Fox News, MSNBC. Give him a break! The minions said "the steel melted", he believed it, what more do you need to do for exaustive research??? He researched "conspiracy" sites too...you know, the ones that (at one time) stated there was a conspiracy orchestrated by some Third World towelheads in oil-rich Mideast countries to destroy the freedoms of Americans, er, US citizens. I remeber chuckling on 9-11-01 at the government mouthpieces on the teewee talking "conspiracy". Osama and his cronies from Afghanistan. (or is it Saudi Arabia...or maybe Iran??? Iraq??? Antarctica??????). By 9-12 the "C" word went away. Yup, the "conspiracy" sites: CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN, Fox News, MSNBC, etc!
Just a couple more thought on the blazing inferno created by the 2,000,000 gallons of jet fuel, or whatever the amount. The fuel did NOT pool inside the WTC, it kept moving, you know inertia. The massive quantites of liquid did not come to a screeeeeeeeeching halt in less than 2/10 of a second.
Oh yeah, the fuel rained down the elevator shafts, right??? The towers had a "sky lobby" system of express and locals. The top 35 floors or so did not have any elevators that ran to the ground floor, or there may have been a few like the South Tower for the tourists to access the observation decks. Except for those and maybe a couple of freight elevators, you did not have any straight drops to the bottom. Remeber, the plane did not breach the central core (elevators, stairwells) of the South Tower.
It amazes me that there are still so many knukleheads out there, even after the fires in Caracas and Madrid, that'll still argue so vehementlyátheir support of the offical story. But hey! they are products of the school system run by the same liars who promote the the official story...so whadda ya expect!

think 20.Feb.2005 12:21

www.prisonplanet.com unixgcc@yahoo.com

i would like to say that the government is the only ones to gain from this. PROBLEM, REACTION, SOLUTION. the government creates a problem, we react help us, help us. and they have the solution already planned out. its been done many times over the years.
since 9/11 they were very quick to take away our rights, like they had already had this planned.
now if you follow the patriot act. you would know that everytime they revise it, the definition of a terrorist widens and widens. since 9/11 our government is quick to turn america into one big prison
and every citezen is a criminal. national id cards already passed and will be incorporated into drivers license and will include them with canada and mexico. its called a tri national card. it will have all biometrics, rfid. including your DNA and will be shared with mexico and canada.
you will need it to travel. its not implemented yet but its coming. if you read the bible you would know that america is one of the beast in prophecy
and that we wont be a free nation. people need to turn off there t.v. and start thinking for themselves. as for hurlyG i suspect shes very young and has not experienced life. when i was 20
i would have believed in nonsense too. give her time to grow up. it takes time. ignorance is bliss
its easier to believe a lie than to accept the truth. i dont believe in aliens but i do firmly believe the government is behind 9/11 its called a new world order.

HurleyG = Ugly Her 20.Feb.2005 15:22


OI! Ugly Her! You still haven't explained your new physics to us. You know the one, where we have to believe that FORTY SEVEN re-enforced steel core columns "pancaked". And don't give me "they melted or warped because of the fire" bovine excrement. You need an oxy-acetylene torch, targetted on a small area, to melt or even deform structural steel. Or high explosives.

As for John Harrington, you seem like a "limited hangout" official asshole. The debris from the controlled demolitions was NOT analysed, remember? ALL the remaining structural steel was shipped to blast furnaces overseas without any analyses whatsoever. This is a vital indictment of the government: they destroyed the evidence of the crime. Now why on earth would they want to do that, ummm? The biggest crime in American history and it is NOT thoroughly investigated forensically? Why not? Because, obviously, traces of explosives on the heavy duty joints and welds in the core columns would have been found, that's why not. Are you starting to wake up, Mr Harrington?

I admit it, you're right... 20.Feb.2005 15:49


I have a masters degree in civil engineering and a minor in architecture from a top engineering school, and I'm over 40. Before 9-11 I had researched famous structural failures of buildings. I rarely watch CNN, Fox or those other network you mention. But you're right, I'm a pawn in a vast conspiracy theory. No sense wasting any more of your time with a serious engineering debate. You guys immediately figured me out, just like you figured out the differences in engineering design among these buildings based on serious engineering sites. I must go now. I have said too much. THEY are watching us.

construction photos 20.Feb.2005 15:50


if you have seen any construction photos of the TT's you would see that the 'pancake' hypothesis is absurd. the inner structure occupies half of the floor space. there are forces at work here that go beyond the means of sane men .

engineering masters 20.Feb.2005 16:12


i have seen more engineering masters pop up on these websites than those of any other occupation. after a bit of observation, one would believe that E. Masters have so much time on their hands that they spend hours attemping to inform everyone of the already widely spread official story . and often , if you notice , these nobles even lack the education to put together thoughtful and meaningful sentences. how do they even find these websites ? do they look for them ? it is laughable when you think about it.

HurleyG, Not Answering The Questions? 20.Feb.2005 16:50

J.A. Hatfield Massacabre@hotmail.com

Conspiracy theory, has two words in there. Conspiracy, and the word "theory", which is an idea, a supposition. I remember watching "In Plane Site", and they said it this way. In theory, if there was a raffle of some sort, there's a great chance that I -could- win a prize. As long as I don't buy a ticket, that prize is possible. But as soon as I buy a raffle ticket, it no longer is just possible, it's probable. And the more tickets I buy, the more that probability becomes probable.

Much in the case in the conspiracy "theory". We have evidence, so much evidence, that you can't dispute something is wrong with the official story of the 9/11 attacks. From firefighters telling how there were multiple explosions in the two towers (in their words, like explosions that went "boom boom boom boom boom" all the way down the side of the building, like a demolition style takedown), to the magical hole in the Pentagon that was too small to fit the airplane that supposedly hit it.

Answer these questions, HurleyG:

1) Why was the hole not big enough to fit a plane of that size into?
2) How did building 7 collapse "due to fire damage" when the beams of the building were extremely thick and made of steel, and the fire was only on a few floors? Never in history has a steel building collapsed due to fire damage. If you went off and told a expert in buildings such as those that you saw a building collapse because of a few small fires, you'd be laughed out of their office.
3) Why did nobody intercept the planes, when they had obvious red flags, and would have instantly snapped into action to stop the planes?
4) Why did these buildings collapse in a demolition style take down?
5) Silverstein told them to "pull it", concerning building 7 (pull it is demolition lingo for "bring it down") when the building was on fire for eight hours before being brought down? And how come it takes a week for explosives to be set in a building like that?

I mean...I can ask all sorts of questions. If you can tell me why there was no debris from the plane hitting the Pentagon (or a crater, or marks on the ground) and why the damage to the Pentagon was extremely small? I mean, you've seen that security video just outside the Pentagon have you? Well, let's play a game Hurley. Much in the fashion of Where's Waldo?, the game will be called Where's The Plane? Fine a picture (that hasn't been faked), a video (not faked either), or any sort of other actual evidence other than something somebody said or wrote, and maybe, just maybe, you can prove us wrong.

Oh, and one more thing. The supposed hijackers who got those planes and crashed them into those buildings? Their flight instructors admitted that the men were horrible pilots. So...horrible pilots, doing expert stunts and crashing planes into buildings? Wow, Usama must be better at constructing these imaginary plots alot better than we thought.

- J.A. ( Massacabre@hotmail.com)
Wow. What a gigantic plane sized hole that must be, aye? (*Note Sarcasm*)
Wow. What a gigantic plane sized hole that must be, aye? (*Note Sarcasm*)
(Before The Roof Collapsed) Consistant with a huge plane hitting the building?
(Before The Roof Collapsed) Consistant with a huge plane hitting the building?
Fire damage, alright. Who cares about physics? Reality sucks anyways.
Fire damage, alright. Who cares about physics? Reality sucks anyways.

Defending the Sheep 20.Feb.2005 18:26

Farmer GY

Please do not defame or criticize sheep by comparing them with the majority of the American public.

The sheep is a proud animal when pressed or angered the will defend himself. He will kick and bite.

The American public are not sheeple. They are SLEEPLE.

The time the towers took to fall 20.Feb.2005 18:27


Bye bye, HurleyG. Thanks for explaining the impossible pancaking. You never know when your crap education will come in handy.

To all you serious non-sheeple out there, I have to agree with John Kaminski
[www.johnkaminski.com (The Second Wave)]. Excerpt:

...."Our leaders lied about what happened. They refused to hold an investigation. They destroyed the evidence. They hid the videotapes. They blamed Muslims but didn't to this day produce a shred of evidence against them. They deceived our own air defenses with bogus drills designed to confuse everyone. They invented fantastic cellphone calls. They met with terrorists and let important witnesses slip out of the country. The list of their deceptive maneuvers is nearly endless.

But there is one thing they couldn't hide, and that is the issue that the second wave, IMHO, should focus on. Don't be distracted by bells and whistles, by airplanes shooting missiles or faux Islamicists in strip clubs, don't get bogged down by what did or didn't hit the Pentagon or trapped in endless arguments about slow flying interceptors, gaps in the NORAD coverage, or whether Flight 93 was shot down.

There is one issue, and one issue only. It is the issue that will hang them:


Jetliners striking building hundreds of feet in the air could not possibly have dropped those towers in ten seconds. Think about it. 47 robust steel columns anchored in bedrock hundreds of feet below had to be demolished simultaneously at the instant of collapse in order for 9/11 to happen as it did. And that is exactly what happened".....

Nice one, John. To my mind, the near free-fall of the towers and the seismographic evidence of spikes - proving explosives were attached to the core columns at or near the bedrock - just BEFORE the start of the collapses, should nail the bastards. But can enough of the American sheeple be motivated in time - that is, before a full-blown fascist police state becomes obvious to everyone?. Millions of innocent lives depend on the answer to that very question.

Magic Jet Fuel 20.Feb.2005 18:50

Magician Demolition Inc

Hi. I'm the CEO of Magician Demolition, Inc. I don't have a office yet (I don't have much money so I work out of my mother's basement). I'm looking for a competitive advantage in the demolition industry. See all of my competitors waste days (and sometimes weeks) of time carefully wiring obsolete buildings with demolition charges so the structures will collapse within their own footprints. Depending on the size of the job (labor + materials) the costs run from the hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars.

9-11 opened my eyes.

All that an innovative demolition company has to do is start a kerosene fire about 3/4 up a building and in less than an hour (!) the entire building will MAGICALLY collapse into it's own footprint. No blueprints are needed. No cutting charges need to be set. No coordination and building in-folding/implosion needs to be planned out. An entire skyscraper can be brought down within it's own footprint for a few hundred dollars.

My problem is that I cannot find the Magic Jet Fuel used by the planes on 9-11 to do this. Does anyone know where I can purchase this Magic Jet Fuel?

Why no one in the commercial demolition industry hasn't thought about this yet is beyond me. They are taking days and days and spending millions of dollars on jobs that could be done in a fraction of the time and for a fraction of the cost. What is wrong with them? Do they like wasting time and money???

To the CEO of Magic Demolition 20.Feb.2005 19:10

Big Guy

Perhaps I can join you in this venture. We can make BIG $$$$$. I propose adding to our company a steel cutting division. That magic jet fuel used 9-11 was able to melt steel quickly and cause it to bend with ease. I remember watching the news footage of the final column of the WTC being cut. It took an arc welder about an hour to get through the steel. Union welders make well over $40 an hour. For less than half the cost, 7 or 8 gallons of magic jet fuel and a match, that steel would have been cut...and in less time too!!!!

Your Answers Hurley G... 20.Feb.2005 19:14


Hurley, (and other interested people aswell)

You want answers..?
You want full-truth's..?
You want ROCK SOLID Evidence..?

Then your answers lie with your Government.(Hurley, I take it you are a citizen of U.S)
Your Government, the Bush Regime, have the evidence you seek- The non conspiracy, full-thruth, rock solid evidence the World WANTS to see:-
The Pentagon Survailance Camera tapes from surrounding/neihbouring buildings and highway traffic camera's.

These video tapes WERE confiscated within minutes(15-45mins) of the Pentagon incident, by FBI and/or Government Officials.. That alone has conspiracy written all over it(just how did they know which buildings to visit to confiscate these tapes..?)
But, this is where the CONSPIRACY really starts..


3 Years on, a Commission Report into 9/11, Thousands of questions(answered or not) and still the U.S people FAIL TO SEE WHERE THE EVIDENCE LIES.. in the hands of the U.S Government..!!!!
(whether its a failure by U.S citizens to see where the evidence is or not, its a failure by all people to allow, still, the confiscation of these tapes/evidence)

Just what is on these tapes..?
By the position of the highway traffic camera, we SHOULD be able to see(clearly) a Jetliner, flying 5-20ft(eyewitness reports) from the ground, clipping light poles and it crosses the highway on its approach to the Pentagon.
By the position of the Service Station camera, we SHOULD be able to see(clearly) a Jetliner, and its approach, aswell as Impact, into the Pentagon.
By the postion of the surrounding Hotel camera, we SHOULD(and again, CLEARLY) see a Jetliner, and its approach, aswell as Impact, into the Pentagon.

But why are these tapes NOT BEING RELEASED...?
Even the 9/11 Commision Report made no mention of such tapes/evidence.

Your Government HAS these Tapes. They reported the confiscation of them. Everybody knows they have them.
But why wont they show us..?

Whats the worst thing that could be on those survailance tapes..? A plane crashing into a building..?
Is this the reason why they wont show us..?
Surely, by now, we have all seen a plane crash. Didnt they show the WTC planes on Mainstream Media for days on end..?

So whats on the Pentagon tapes..? I want to see.. the WORLD wants to see.. SHOW US pls..!

Do you actually realize that its a CRIME TO WITHOLD EVIDENCE...? That itself makes the U.S Government GUILTY..!


Keep It Up 20.Feb.2005 19:25


I wonder what they(whoever "they" are)are cooking up next.
Both sides of this arguement choose to keep their minds shut. Both sides would rather talk than listen. Some even refuse to see the truth when it is right in front of them.
So keep it up. It's truly amazing, the progress that's been made. So many intelligent conversations have popped up all over the internet. Incredible!
What's the plan? Really? What is the purpose of all of this?
None of you seem to care. This is not even a debate. This is just 2 groups that hate each other.
Stop thinking of the next thing to say and pay attention to what is going on around you. I'm sure that if you do, you'll realize that the whole time that you've been wasting your time bickering with people(who, like you will NEVER listen to a different point of view), YOUR ENEMY has been gaining ground.
Your hatred and fear is being used against you no matter how you look at it or which side of the arguement you are on.
Conspiracy Theorist-I'm sorry but you will never sway a die-hard.
Anti Conspiracy Theorist-The Conspiracy Theorist will never listen to you, no matter how much sense you THINK you make.
You could all focus your energy on something worthwhile and actually make progress if you could interact on the same level.
Or keep doing what you're doing; it's worked so well so far(at least for your enemy it has).

That's why a handful of people(?) are in control(and that's no theory-that is reality).

911 FIre a different kind of fire 20.Feb.2005 21:15


I know why the Madrid building didn't collapse and the WTC towers did. It has to do with different kind of fire. The Madrid fire was a regular ordinary type fire. The WTC fire was different. It was a Reichstag fire. Much hotter...

Pat Tillman was killed deliberatelly as a recruiting tool 20.Feb.2005 21:21

The bushes will burn

What I find as misrepresenting is when someone tries to equate the word power with the actions of these cowardly government agents. Intolerance and the inability to show restraint are by the very nature of the words weaknesses. And the sharp unethical quest to obtain wealth by the perpetrators of these crimes is only another sure sign of insecurity and utter dependence. These forces are running rampant in spite of any regard for law or descency with full financial backing thanks to the obedient taxpayers. However, foolish would be those to think that someone making $7.00 and hour actually has something to lose. After all, who do you think would like to sit at who's table more? And who is it that has more to lose.
As for the aliens, in our small speck in the solar system we can be assured of one thing, there is no one else around for a good long ways. So if that does not show how absolutely insignifigant we are to the cosmic picture, in other words in reality, one would insult creation itself to even insinuate that humanity is somehow the peak of civilization and evolution and nothing else could ever exist without our knowing. The unchallenged actions of these degenerate criminals creating terrorism only proves to show the cancer growing within our own species. Where do we think we are going?

Just discussed this with very poor results 20.Feb.2005 21:26

August Harper augustharper@internetcheese.com

I just discussed this on another web forum board, and was lambasted by those engaged. The discussion was more of a puzzle than a debate on the structural integrity of buildings digressing quickly to how I must believe bombs took the buildings down. WTC7 was a 48 story building, which was damaged severely at the base or support columns by the ignition of huge diesel reserves located in the basement. Poor structural design is what is said to have taken down the WTC7 tower, in a perfect vertical implosion. While the Windsor building in Madrid was only 32 stories tall and all but the last 21 stories did not collapse. I am at an impass. Where was the pyroclastic smoke, why were the fires at the WTC7 building not raging, why did the WTC7 building fall perfectly in its own footprint?


3801 N. 7th Ave. Apt. 7B

The day of 9/11 20.Feb.2005 22:59


On the day of 9/11 I said to myself "I would not be surprised if the US government had a hand in this" and here we are today unravelling all their lies.

Just ask the owner 21.Feb.2005 03:28

God Bless Disinfo

Listen up Ya'll

Have you all been asleep? Silverstein pulled WTC #7. we've known this! WAKE UP!



RE Bombs in the MFB news source 21.Feb.2005 04:28

Mack (when i started engineering school we had slide rules)

This video took me over a year to find. The only source i have to date is from Alex Jones (infowars.com and prisonplanet.com). If you get his video "America Destroyed by Design" at 1 hour 17 minutes into the video he has a segment on OKC. During this segment of the video he has several actual news casts of CNN and local OKC broadcasters reporting that a "bomb inside the Murrah building caused the damage" and "Several larger unexploded bombs were also found and are being dismantled and removed as we speak". This was reported for approximatly 1 hour then the broadcasts switched to the "Big Yellow Truck". Of course everyone in the US is aware of this fact I have taken to keeping this video on the desktop of my laptop computer. I go over to friends homes put my laptop on their kitchen table and tell them to watch this for 5 mins. The results are always amazing my extremely paranoid conspiracy laden viewpoints are then seen with a somewhat differnt aspect.
On a side note as a former engineer for Ford Motor Co i can assure you that the "VIN" number traced to the axle on the ryder truck is nothing more than a average common FoMoCo axle part number. This same number would be found on literally 1000's of truck axles. It consists of the decade the part is produced, the major compoenets group, the body style, the actual part number and the revison to the drawing. In this regard the FBI is truly amazing to me as being able to take maybe a ashtray part number or door handle part number and trace it back to the VIN and lead right to the rental place.

Ford part numbers explained

WTC Layman Here 21.Feb.2005 07:57

Tommy iflyc150t@aol.com

I am not a physics major or an engineer; however, I do know that the two World Trade towers would NOT collapse evenly as they did if the cause was do to a compromise in the metal structure. How elementary! Even CHILDREN understand that concept. Its not even an issue- it was a controlled demolition. There are sheep who believe so strongly in the virtues and goodness of leaders that it is beyond their comprehension to suspect foul play. New Zealand! Scotland! Who needs luxuries? Just give me TRUE FREEDOM! Tommy

Don't confuse "Patriotism" with following the government of the day... 21.Feb.2005 08:17


You should heed the warnings of Goebbels. Or I guess it was his plan or strategy. He stated, somewhere, that most of the masses have a hard time differentiating between patriotism and loyalty to their nation with loyalty and blind subservience to the government of the day.

Those that fear the truth, or don't want to believe their government can be used by powerful, connected people to achieve their own goals and enrich themselves usually lash out at the people seeking to discover or expose the truth. They call them "fools" or "paranoid" or "unpatriotic". Meanwhile, the truth always comes out, eventually. Sticking your head in the sand makes it all feel better for a while, but eventually you have to come up for air, and usually the scene is much more horrible than when you stuck your head in.

What usually happens, in the meantime, is that a large population of unwitting sheep follows blindly, persecutes those seeking truth, and by the time the rest of the world has had enough and comes in to stop it, they end up saying "but we didn't know!", "We thought they were just cooking a lot of pigs in those giant sweet-smelling ovens". Unless you have a direct interest in continuing the lies, you're a fool to perpetuate the conventional wisdom. You should always challenge the conventional wisdom, seek your own truth.

The trains are being assembled people. Figuratively speaking, that is.

Quick to NOT investigate 21.Feb.2005 08:49

Big Guy

The US citizen "Sleeple" are always quick to accept the US Government lies. Do they ever wonder why there was never an extensive investigation into the events of that day and why things "happened" the way they did?? Were they ever curious as to why the "experts" on the teewee were able to explain everything that happend and who did it within four hours of the collapses??? This was an unprecedented event, an "attack on America" they said. Four hijackings in one morning. Two quarter-mile high skyscrapers turned to dust and in less than a day the who, what, when, where and why all explained.
Contrast this with my neighbor's house. It caught fire. It was TWO weeks before anything can be done to rebuild it. TWO weeks for an investigation into a common wood-frame structure. that damaged the garage and kitchen. TWO weeks to determine it was an electrical short. I know of business that burned that would have their rubble remain in place for MONTHS while the arson squad, etc. investigate. Seven buildings collapse or are heavily damaged in an event of such magnitude and "surprise" and within hours the remnants are hauled off for recycling.

Quick to blame 21.Feb.2005 09:59

JQ Public

You know i find it hard to see why you guys, with all of your research and information would find it valid to claim that it is very possible for aliens to have had a hand in the WTC incident (although some of the theories are interesting). I have looked at the info and being doing research and it seems that it is very logical why the towers collapsed. When you make comparisions to other building fires, you forget the fact that these other fires were not caused by a airliner running into the top of it. When you have extreme forces that run into the top floors of a building it creates and huge amount of extra stress and weight that then logically would be beyond what the structure is meant to withstand. When a building as tall as those where has excess weight and force on the top it becomes top heavy and this then weakens the rest of the structure. I would advise some of you to pull out your LEGOS and get testing. A building, the WTC towers were not meant to withstans weight and force such as was presented them and therefore they collapsed.

NExt Issue:

Im sure you will then, as all of you do, say, "what about tower 7, what about it collapsing, how do you explain that?" Well... frankly i agree that it was odd the way that it collapsed and i find value in some (and i mean "some") of your theories. Perhaps there was fraud in the use of materials in the construction that caused the collapse, perhaps this building was being used for purposes taht we do not know and it was designed to be completely destroyed in such circumstances. But, i find it hard to say that the gov, knowing you all are out there, would make such a move as to just blow it up on the same day and hope no one asks questions. I AM THE FIRST TO ADMIT I DO NOT KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO TOWER 7, but, this does not shape the agruement for the other two towers. Many seem t think that the strange way building 7 went down, somehow explains how the other 2 towers were destroyed by the gov. This really makes no sense. When someone can challenge the views of one part of the theory, you can not simply point to another part of the theory and expect it to validate the first part. As an law student, i assure you that this is not the logically way to make an arguement. If you want to prove something, you must dig deeper and find out how to debunk the contradicting theories, not simply cast them off and call the authors "sheep" and "robots" and so forth. The people i have spoken to about this who make the best arguments aknowledge the fact that they do not know it all. NONE OF YOU OR ME KNOW IT ALL.

I just wanted to speak my mind as that is what this is all about. If you have facts that might bring the building 7 arguement to more clarity, please let me know. Conspiracy theories have been around since history has been recorded and they stem from the fact that no man knows all. Learn from opposition, don't disregard it.

re: JQ Public 21.Feb.2005 10:27

Big Guy

Remember, the designers of the twin towers stated it will stand after an impact by a 707! Oh yeah, those dreaded infernos caused by the 65 billion gallons of jet fuel. I suggest you read the above from the CEO of Magical Demolition Inc. Your theories DO NOT stand to reason. PERIOD! Please, stop the nonsense about the etreme heat caused by the burning fuel. Jet fuel DOES NOT burn a temperatures that can melt steel, EXCEPT when a gas turbine (jet engine) under 27 times normal atmospheric pressure. Do the research!
The recent fires in Madrid and Caracas were far hotter and more damaging to their structures than that of the WTC. You can also check the First Interstate Tower (1988) in Los Angeles.
As for the weight...aw come on...The WTC was designed to be TALL! The towers were the tallest in the world when completed. Don't you think the engineers KNEW they were tall and had to carry extra gravity load, and get this...WIND LOAD!!! Do the research. The WTC experienced more stress during a sustained 65mph wind than was placed on the towers by airliners, which are mostly AIR!
I know you're trying to give the appearance of open-mindedness by questioning the collapse of WTC7, but if #7 collapsed by controlled demolition, then the others had to be done in the same way.

Engineers WTC 21.Feb.2005 10:48

Big Guy

Of course the engineers made a big mistake by not making the towers out of Legos.

JQ Public - A *$!*%&* Lawyer! 21.Feb.2005 12:30


Nice one, Big Guy.

Now then, JQ Public. That is the most blatant horseshit I have ever come across in any 9/11 discussion I have ever had in the last 3 years. You are a lawyer? Give me strength, Squire. No wonder O J Simpson got off scot-free. Imagine the WTC architects saying "We mustn't build the towers too tall, guys, because they have to withstand their own weight". What do you think the 47 massive re-enforced steel core columns - which tapered in thickness from top to bottom bedrock - were all about then, bonehead?. With dumbasses like you around, no wonder America is fast becoming a full-blown fascist police state.

God help us with complete imbeciles like this buffoon: JQ Public.

Rush to Judgement 21.Feb.2005 12:51


No, we aren't being told the whole story, WTC7 falling so.... gently...

We are being misled, the question is, what are you going to do about it ??

Far-Reaching effects 21.Feb.2005 16:10

Carlos Castaneda

I have been been researching 911 since first becoming aware of the anomalies discussed here. I have really enjoyed this thread.

The most suspicious thing about the Twin Towers collapse is, of course, the reaction to it by the American Govt.

With all the talk of WTC7 I don't think anyone pointed out that it is not even mentioned in the 911 Comission Report, the official version of events. Am I to conclude it didn't even happen??!! :-)

I am writing here from China, one thing you can be sure of is that the vast majority of the worlds population deeply suspect the involvment of the Bush administration in the events of 911. I gain strength from that. And many, many educated westerners are doing a bit of fine tuning of their plans to take in what they see as a change in the intent of government there in the USA. I guess I'm talking about a loss of trust.

Great site and forum.

WTC DEBACLE STAGED! 21.Feb.2005 17:42


I have always said, "YOU CAN'T ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT." All those idiots that keep their head burried in the MSM like Faux News, CNN, MSNBC, CBS, ABC, NBC etc are suffering from a myopic view of what's going on around them. They believe everything puked out by these corporate controlled and owned media grinders like it was gospel and can't take on a reality based view because they've been so brainwashed and dummed down that to look at another form of news is alien to them.
I at least have the courage and guts to look at many articles on the WTC and other articles and news and in my mind, there is not the least shread of doubt that the WTC fiasco was staged by the owner Silverstein and the US government had their hands in the conspiracy too. I've watched many programs on some of the educational TV channels about controlled demolition and how it was done and what it looks like when a building falls. Now I'm no expert on anything, but I do have at least some intelligence. I have seen the videos of the TT's falling and have read some of the statements of the maintenance workers that were in the sublevels of the towers that day. They said they either heard what sounded like explosions or witnessed some of the buildings substructure being destroyed just before the planes hit. I put the two together and came up with what appears to me to be done by controlled demolition.
Now someone had to set those charges in the right places for the desired effect and I think it might have been either military or some explosives experts that were expendable and after setting the charges, the demolition experts might have been forced to take a long walk off a short pier. Just a thought tho. I haven't read anything about that angle anywhere.
Why is it so hard for some of you people to realize that your government is selling this country down the tubes and we are fast approaching a ONE WORLD FASCIST POLICE STATE ran by some global elite extremely wealthy corporate pigs? It don't take much of an education to see it happening right under your noses. Don't you realize that this was just a ruse to be able to get you're attention diverted away from what they're doing behind your back? Another ruse is the so called "WAR ON TERROR" that is being blamed on nonexistent terrorists so your government can take away more of your so called freedoms. Now they're going after Iran, Syria, North Korea, China and Russia. Look for WW III within the next few years. Come on people, do you want to live as a slave to these tyrants under a corporate controlled fascist police state? If not, you need to wake up real quick! Get your head out of the tube, (TV) and start looking at REALITY. Reality is NOT in the main stream media. It's right in your neighborhood, in your wallet/purse, the airports, grocery and department stores, the verichip implant they are trying to get you to accept, the new government ID card/driver license that just got passed. Look at the number of security cameras that have gone up in the last few years. Look at the vehicle you drive. Does it have a GPS device? This vehicle GPS device is more than that. It tells on you if you have an accident. It tells the speed of your vehicle, weather you were braking, accelerating, which way you turned the steering wheel, etc. And you think this is normal? If you want to learn more about this global conspiracy, I would recomend you read some of the David Icke books and visit his website at  http://www.davidicke.com
This isn't some conspitacy theory people, this is REALITY! WAKE UP!!!!!

Hello America, from the UK 21.Feb.2005 17:51

I'm With Icke

you know the line out of the shining when he says to his wife " you got a big f*****g suprise coming to you ", This is my message to all the conspiracy debunkers on this site.

The whole world is in a great deal of trouble , how long is it before the "Government" has drones following us around the streets, they throw it in your face in Hollywood and then say " oh its just a film ".

Onto 9/11

I was one of the first people to shout death to all muslims etc, but then I started to realise what was going on a and then bang my whole world turned upside down, I read David Icke "children of the Matrix" and then "9/11 and alice in wonderland" and it all became clear, the world is a scarier plce to me but at least im not one of the sheeple anymore!!!!!

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