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Stop hoping for a legitmate government, it will not happen

Give it up people
Would everyone P L E A S E !!! stop writing and babbling about Congress ? Both the House and the Senate... Geez, when will the remainder of you learn ? Get a clue ...please...c'mon, they do not represent you, it is a farce, to write about it/them continually like you still hold out hope in this body, it is ridiculus.How many sessions does it take ? How many years need to go by ? They DO NOT represent you, they DO NOT stand with you, THEY DO NOT care about you. Give it up. To continually and relentlessly hold out with facts and tidbits about this Congressperson or that one, or what this Senator said or voted for, it is stupid and shows many of you are inable to learn. Stop talking about who is elected or will be. If you are trying to work within this "system" you are wasting your time. Even now, there are those among you out there thinking "But in 2008..." NO ! It will not happen. I am not a pessimist.I am a realist. I long for the day when the talk here is about real organizing and real solutions.

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have it your way 06.Jan.2005 15:28


right on. i agree mosly, but i would say, start a revolution, get out of the box and change it, or give it up and do nothing or believe in the system and keep the machine going........have it your way.....hoopla la la

Hate to agree 06.Jan.2005 15:57


But I will because I want to be constructive, and it's not constructive to keep doing the same things that haven't worked with the expectation that they suddenly will. In fact, I've heard that given as the definition of insanity. Better to start planning for a post-oil world, as well as an imminent economic collapse. Learn to grow your own food. Start connecting with like-minded people. Think of ways to barter.

There's a difference between proactive visions and delusions.

I have to agree 06.Jan.2005 16:18

After nearly 220 years can you find the pattern?

I posted on Portland Indymedia last year that this vote would be stolen, that Bush would be president, that the system would do nothing to prevent it, and that lefties would immediately start planning their demise in 2008.

Face it, YOU DON'T HAVE A VOTE. Hell, under the electoral college system you only had a suggestion to begin with! Stop posting about surveys, numbers, yadda yadda, because even if your boy Kerry gets in, he has no right to rule Cascadia from thousands of miles away.

Critical Mass Requires Process 06.Jan.2005 16:51

Lloyd Hart dadapop@dadapop.com

All of us that write about the democratic process are keenly aware of how we are not represented by selected political leaders that value money over democratic rights. However, democracy must be shown to be completely obliterated before anyone can begin the process of a legitimate and I might add constitutional uprising against the elites who have turned America into one of their corporations where they own all the shares.

A evidentury process is required before you can reach critical mass in order to en masse challenge the illegitimate authority that has stolen america from it's very citizens. Critical mass relies on the distribution of information to those who are quite prepared to rise up against the illegitimate authority once they transcend all the evidence in the information provided to them by our scriblings.

If you do not have an informed critical mass a legitimate uprising is impossible. So let's not be so critical of those who write about the process, for without an informed process there is no witness to the process, without a witness to the process there is no critical mass for a legitimate uprising.

What we have just witnessed is all the evidence anyone needs to justify a legitimate uprising against the lying, cheating and murdering government in Washington, DC.

But the next step in the process is to hit the streets.

Do you agree with this next step in the process?

Good questions 06.Jan.2005 17:53


Lloyd Hart raises good questions. I believe, as I think he does, that the critical mass of needed people is already here, but we are not connected. The global capitalist system, an ingeniously evil enterprise that's amazingly efficient at keeping people distracted/desperate/too busy or overwhelmed to care (etc.) has seen to this. I think the real question is how to make the connections in spite of the white noise. I hit the streets many time after Sacramento, but back then I knew the old tactics were dead. Who the fuck wants to either straggle around in little bands, dodging pepper-spray and clubs, or be in big, sedate marches meandering through empty downtowns with corporate media misrepresenting everything that's going on?

Now, if fifty-thousand people would sit down in Portland in the middle of a working day, like millions of others around the country, then you'd be talking about something effective. But I personally think that's a pipe dream at this point. I think the economy is going to collapse, but rather than bring people together, it will put the fascists more in control. Part of this is because there is almost no deep, working-class social connection in the fabric of American society. My own feeling, as I said before, is plan for the collapse, help create a like-minded community, and get ready for a different socio-economic paradigm.

Hey, if you have better, more hopeful ideas, I'd love to hear them. I'm very optimistic about living joyfully in spite of many potentially dystopian scenarios, but I'm very pessimistic about the future of the U.S. (I left, in fact.) But maybe it's spectacular demise will provide a glimmer of insight for the rest of the industrialized world, which in turn will divert from the present course of utterly ruinous, zero sum capitalism, (not likely, I admit. But maybe).

So what? "Hoping" won't make it legitimate, but it doesn't need our approval. 06.Jan.2005 17:58


I agree with Lloyd's analysis... except "the next step is to hit the streets." What are we supposed to do "in the streets"?

Anyway, while Lloyd was posting, I was writing, so here's the way I said it:

"Me" is right (mostly) that the current government and politicians are hopeless, but we still need to go through the motions to demonstrate to more folks (including sometimes ourselves) that 1) we're sincere about wanting to make things better, 2) we've really tried to be cooperative and respectful of other people - and the commonly accepted "rules", and that 3) the system is broken or rigged and needs to be replaced, eliminated, etc.

You can't have revolution when 60 to 95% of your fellow citizens are actively opposed to your ideas and initiatives and supporting the established government. As long as most people passively or actively accept the current order, and many of those who "reject" it are passive in their opposition, the current economic and political institutions are going to continue running our lives and destroying the planet.

I'll bet Me is under 25, or at least has never engaged in any political activity that accomplished one identifiable positive result. Merely "being right" never removes despots or achieves anything.

"Legitimacy" is not our goal. But if we are to successfully dispose of the current regime, we must expose its illegitimacy and demonstrate our own creativity, commitment, and goodwill, and the legitimacy of our perceptions, values, and visions.

And, yes, many of us still have vestiges of hope that the current system and authorities can be "reformed" and made legitimate. That view is something of a luxury: the reality is we must continue to go through the motions of questioning and exposing the illegitimacy to engage more of our potential allies. To the extent that we still feel there is hope, the easier it is to go through these motions that move us all beyond our collective denial and towards a social renaissance.

the beat has no rhythm 06.Jan.2005 18:25

Citizen #0u812

Maybe we can get rid of Mt. Rushmore, put the bush family up there. Start erecting some statues of W in key liberal cities so the democrats know who their master is. Maybe that will shut them up for good. Why not just forget this tap dance alltogether. President for life. Done. Only blood relatives can take the throne, but that includes Kerry, shoot, I guess that won't work... make Kerry a republican, problem solved.

Essentially then, you are advocating the status quo. 06.Jan.2005 18:40


Whether the future of American progressives is in institutional reform, revolution, or incarceration and oppression, the key to its survival is hope.

Regarding the current political institution, do you seriously believe that you can organize in such vast numbers in a manner of time that could stop the current Bush/GOP/fascist movement before the inauguration? How much effort would that take? In the meantime, you can write or call your legislators and let them know how you feel, which takes a miniscule fraction of the effort that would be required to organize in the kind of numbers we saw in late 60's and early 70's.

So the question really is, whether or not the current system of government is so decrepit and corrupt that the tiny effort of making your feelings known to your political representatives is without value or enough value to render it pointless.

I feel otherwise. I believe that those who did organize and rally around Rep. John Conyers of Michigan in his rejection of the electoral college and demand for congressional hearings did, through those small gestures, help force attention of the mainstream population onto this issue, which is an important step in working toward one of two possible outcomes: 1) Working the current system in the hope that it may yeild positive results like mandating a paper trail for voting machines, all the way to exposing the fraud outright; (2) Reaching a level of public attention to the issue where organization and mobilization on a scale necessary to achieve "real change" is possible.

Whatever happens we had damn well better have hope in our hearts, or we truly will end up in a state like fascist Italy where everything we read and hear is controlled by the government, which is controlled by ideological extremists. Think about what you're really saying and how contradictory it is where logic is concerned.

I disagree 06.Jan.2005 19:27

George Bender

Electoral politics could produce results, but it would require that the left have the guts to vote outside the Democratic party. As long as you keep voting for Democrats, and most of you did, nothing will change. The Democrats will take your votes for granted and give you nothing in return, because they don't have to.

It is pointless to tell those of us who do electoral politics to stop it and shut up about it. We do not follow orders. So I guess you'll just have to suffer.

post peak oil scenarios 4 06.Jan.2005 19:31

ending US patriarchal imperialism

Good news is many of the suburban idiots driving SUVs and overconsuming are probably going to die and/or be cooked and eaten by hungry mobs once peak oil hits. Mansions will be raided and lower level elites will be burned alive after the worker bees discover how they've been decieved by the wealthy oiligarchy..

oh wait, that was the bad news..

American colonialism is a continuation of patriarchal religious delusions that grant imperialist leaders control over other humans, animals, nature etc.. From the beginning warrior empires of Babylon, Assyria, Ur, Mesopotamia, etc. until now, the pattern of patriachal warrior states has damaged our Mother Earth and her more peaceful inhabitants for thousands of years. Wishful thinking that these false leaders like GW Bush etc. become consumed by their own hatred, become fertilizer, and leave the rest of the people, plants and animals alone..

US petroculture is headed 4 an economic collapse, peak oil "Armageddon" in the form of nuclear holocaust and/or lack of food distribution is the plan of the leaders like Bush/Cheney and their fellow conspirators who have a planned escape route to underground bunkers once the collapse begins. If only some military intelligence folks would tell people where their underground bunker's secret entrance is so after the collapse people could enter and give these tyrants the justice they deserve..

Then the ruling elites will wait until things calm down and re-emerge to implement their plan of total world economic/resource control. Not only are u a consumer, u are now a product owned by genetic engineering corporations. Welcome to the New World Order..

The peak oil transition could also go smoothly with the power elites maintaining their hold on consumer society by introducing alternative technologies in the nick of time, such as Monsanto's genetically engineered hemp for biodiesel, and the hydrogen highway complete with controlled river diversions for hydrogen energy. "Environmentally friendly" say the commercial models with sparkling smiles and glazed donut eyes..

Another option is that people no longer recognize the corporate controlled US government and begin the kinder gentler path to autonomous self-sufficiency in a post peak oil planet. Growing our own food and beginning a local sustainable transportation alternative without petroleum dependency, genetic engineering, river diversions, etc. will stop supporting the oiligarchy and raise the standard of living for humanity, plants and animals..

Non Violent Civil Disobedience 06.Jan.2005 20:21

Lloyd Hart dadapop@dadapop.com

I have been advocating and practicing non violent civil disobedience from the beginning of my activist life and on this site. In fact I screamed bloody murder when so-called liberal progressives spoke out against the CD being practiced by very brave activists shutting down traffic in major U.S. cities when the war began.

I believe it is time to fill the jails, glog the courts and grind the economy to a halt.

Bush is not going to last 08.Jan.2005 05:19


He will not finish four years. I don't know how it will end, but it will. He has less than 50% approval rating before he is even inaugurated. What does that mean, other than he was not really elected? It means he's got a tough go of it and nothing is looking good for him. Have you heard him talk about Iraq lately? He's spewing out the same rhetoric as always, but the quavering voice reveals that even he doesn't believe what he's saying. How heartbreaking that must be to someone who was so convinced of his own greatness. Iraq is going downhill fast, he has no chance of passing his soc. sec. bill. Even Republicans are turning on him on that subject. Sending his bro and Colin Powell to S/SE Asia, what was that? He's desperate. When it comes, it will come like a tidal wave. Remember how the tide pulls away, receding further than ever, before the huge wave comes crashing inland. All those lying Democrats, who let him have his way now, when they smell the blood in the water they will turn, and turn hard, some Republicans will join them, and some will just watch. The pendulum always swings back. He can't last 8 years. People have had enough. All the lies of the press can only hold the public for so long before they take a real look at their situation and cry, "I'm sick of this shit!" It will turn soon. It won't be over unfortunately because it will take so much time to recover from the damage, but it will turn.

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