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Questions for Secession

These aren't meant to be offensive but just some questions on what people are thinking. Were personally interested in trying to clarify what people or groups mean when they talk about this issue.
1. Why do people want to secede?
2. Is this a movement built on the anger of the election? if so, what have groups done to build off this anger and make positive steps to social change?
3. What are the groups working around this issue? What have they done?


4. So who has the guns? ...just kidding.
5. No but serious. Who has the guns?(don't tell us we don't want to know) This is a serious question though. By talking about seceding your invoking east/west pakistan, biafra/nigeria, ireland/england, spain/basque, chechnya/russia, north / south USA some of the bloodiest conflicts that have happened in our freaking history. We gave this many examples just so people could roll them over in their minds, wars of terror, wars of death, and wars of attrition. This is what succession could mean. Are you willing to face this as a possibility when more people post on indymedia about changing the Cascadian flag, than show up to the first meeting of a pro cascadia group?

6. Every single one of these succession movements was or have been built around grassroots organizing, what steps have been taken to begin to build this kind of movement?

7. Is it worth the effort? Not to sound lazy or anything but there is tons of work to be done, no matter what your politics are, what makes succession worth making it a priority?

8. If everything was to go perfectly, what is a timeline of events? Please be specific about social, economic and political events.

These are just a few of the questions we have. But if people could answer these it would be clarifying, probably, for a lot of the rest.

This is also not a personal attack on anyone. Were simply trying to probe what's going on.

Thanks,
Ellen and Marko


PS - last point. Although not a movement of succession (well ...kinda) we need to look at the beginning of the Russian Revolution. We need to remember what the treaty of Brest-Litovsk was on March 3rd, 1918.

This treaty effectively handed over Finland, Poland, the Baltic provinces, Ukraine and Transcaucasia to the Central Powers, together with one-third of Russia's population, one-third of its agricultural land and three-quarters of its industries.

This is the only reason that Russia didn't get steamrolled by Germany and why the small Bolshevik government actually survived. Remember, we only have parts of southeast Portland to give up, not a third of Russia to bribe capitalism/imperialism from swallowing us.


PPS - Were not against the creation of Cascadia. We like going to the dentist for free as much as anyone does, or owning a part of our respective works, or using free childcare, or most else proposed. What were asking, is that people begin to look at what their saying in a critical light.

My two cents. 18.Nov.2004 19:31

Not from Cascadia.

I'm from New England and would like to see New England secede. My take on the questions is that they are not worth answering. Here is why.

(1) It doesn't matter whether this movement was spured on by a stolen election. Ethically, we all have a right to self determination and if we feel that our nation state is on the road to self destruction or is committing crimes against humanity we have a right to secede and be no part of it any longer.

(2) Since we have a right to secede, from an ethical perspective (who cares about the law, I'm an anarchist and couldn't give a shit about the law), then we should do so if we wish to, WHETHER OR NOT the federal government will take up arms against us. We should not plan on taking up arms for we wish to make it clear that if hostilities occur, it is the federal government that is guilty of violance and violation of our sovereign right to self determination - not us. If the federal government begins shooting, nature will take its course.

(3) It would be absolutely stupid to talk about arming ourselves or even to go about arming ourselves. That would be just what the federal government would want in order to declare us terrorists. Even asking such questions is foolish.

(4) It makes little sense to build an on-the-ground movement until consciousness of the issue is created on a larger scale. The best way to do this is to obtain the support of existing organizations and political movements. Yes, it is good to have a "secessionist" organization or movement but it is more important that the desire pervade as many segments of society as possible, not just members of some secessionist organization.

My advise to Cascadians is to keep up the information war, argue strongly and logically for secession and build consciousness before presenting yourself as an official movement.

Things like this take time, dedication and a lot of patience.

Tangential note. 18.Nov.2004 19:40

Boss of some guy who was hired by an intelligence agency.

I was once managing another worker for a software company in California. The worker decided to seek better paying employment and had an interview at a defense contractor working for the CIA. In order to get the job, various intelligence agents had to interview everyone he knew. They called me to set up an interview with myself and others in the office. I was not the office when they called and they left me a number to call and a name (on my voice mail). When I called, a woman answered the telephone and pretended to be a housewife for the guy I was trying to reach. When I informed her of why I was calling, she suddenly became all business and got the guy who confirmed he was an intelligence agent (can't tell you for who, it's a secret). I then set up interviews for this guy. The interesting thing is that his front appeared to be a residence rather than an office and his secretary was pretending to be his wife.

I met two defense intelligence agents at another job. You would think they would look like typical spies, guys in trench coats and so on. Actually, they were two middle aged women in normal street clothes.

My point is simple. Be careful before answering any questions when arms are mentioned, even when the cover seems quaint. Ask yourself, why would anyone bother appearing to be quaint when making a post here?

(Personal note to the CIA: Since I know the CIA is monitoring this, let me add, "Ha, Ha, Ha," suckers. You trained me to know about this stuff. I'm glad to see you finally gave up on harassing me. It took you long enough to figure out that you're wasting your time.)

Cascadia emerging 18.Nov.2004 21:20

_

Cascadia is to be a peaceful movement. Cascadia may never be a separate country from the United States and it is always possible that Cascadia will emerge as a distinct region within the nation-states of North America. I do not believe anyone is predicting a new country. Cascadians like others from the Blue States honor the original spirit of the American Revolution (extending out to all people). To speak of anything other than a peaceful divorce from those who do not believe in civil liberties as well as fairness and transparency in the democratic process. Though I can not speak for all people within the blue states nor Cascadia I would suggest that this is a movement that demands a deeper respect for the sacred documents we have held so close to ours, the Declaration of Independence and the American Constitution. That many blue state people feel that the current regime has usurped that democratic process and the values of our country.

To those outed in the CIA Purges under Porter Goss you know that the current regime is not democratic nor of the people. Your duties should be to upholding those constitutional values and the democratic process. Your loyalty should be to those principles and those mechanisms that embody them. I believe you have sworn an oath to protect the democracy we hold dear and the values we share. I ask of you to ponder this:

What is treason?

Democracy is not elections! Democracy is the empowerment of the people (all people) and a continuing dialogue between the people and institutions that govern the people and their determination to have control over their individual lives. Elections, voting, ballots, education and forums are tools to allow a dynamic dialogue between the people and those institutions. But elections by themselves are not democracy. Nor does the democratic dialogue end at the ballot box until the next elections. Democracy is dynamic, continous and inclusive not exclusive of all.


In democracy submission to tyranny is treason! In democracy the undermining of the democratic process is treason. In democracy to support power at the exclusion from the electorate is treason.


Isn't it treason to support election fraud? Isn't it treason to undermine democracy? Isn't it treason to create or support monopolies by the elite? Isn't it treason to to exclude from the democratic process? Isn't it treason to create a single party system? Isn't it treason to ignore warnings of imminent threat of the people even when those warning are entitled "Bin Laden determine to strike in the US"?
Isn't it treason to undermine civil discourse by owning or controlling most of the media? Isn't it treason to become an empire? Isn't it treason to interfere in the democratic process of other people?

"America" has crossed the Rubicon and that democracy died when it did.
"Amerika" is now inwardly an empire not a democracy. Like during the death of the Roman Republic our Caesar has no need for civil laws that hinder his hold on power.

Trust me I love the American ideal. The stuggle for equality, freedom of speech and all the other civil liberties. I respect and love these declaration! But why does Amerika hate them! What happen to the America we were born into? When did elections become team sports between two political parties? Where is the "fourth estate" that once protected the people from tyranny? What happen to a country that once was hailed as the vanguard of democracy? When did democracy become merely the choice between buying a new pick up truck? When did being American only meant to watch baseball or football, to eat hotdogs or put a red, white and blue flag on my front porch or on my truck?

In a democracy to break from tryanny is not treason. Infact I would invite all to look at questioning this new state of affairs and ask "is it not my duty to fight for our rights?" What is treason is to submit to tyranny! Be that tyranny wrapped in the flag or wearing the fascade of the country I once was proud of. If you truly value the freedoms we once shared and held as sacred then you will take the stand against this new tyranny. You will look beyond the facade of Amerikana and request that our sacred rights be restored and protected. This is not about liberal versus conservative! This is not about democrats versus republicans. We all know well that the republican party does not hold to the conservative values that once marked its place in Americana. Where is the smaller government, the protection of the rights of the individual, the financial responsiblity and all the other values American conservatives held? Does the neo-cons truly represent those older values? And I believe no one can speak for the democrats. Again this is not about political parties or even a two Americas. This is between the masses and those very few in power. This is about rights! This is about the sanctity of justice!

Treason is to submit to tyranny!

Sorry let me condense 18.Nov.2004 22:08

Marko

1. How? -specifically how will this "movement" be successful in its goals?
2. What? -What organizing has been done already?
Response to the new englander: although building consciousness is definitely important, building organizations that people can work in successfully and build your movement is as important or more important. Only building consciousness without at the same time giving people a space to act on that raised consciousness is going to produce a whole bunch of ineffective pissed off people. As an anarchist to an anarchist, I have to be even more concerned about your need to secede from the u.s. Were do you think that the vacuum of power created by secession would lead to? especially with no infrastructure set up by anarchists? Creating dual power means being able to create something that people can depend on, seceding from the state doesn't provide this.

3. The question of arming ourselves. I don't believe its the time to take up arms, its especially not a good time talking about your arms or anything specific like that on indymedia. Let me clarify.

People seceding from a violent government will be attacked ruthlessly. We need to be aware of this. Look at any secession movement or revolutionary movement in the last 100 years. Its not foolish to talk about how violent our government is, its not foolish to talk about every successful revolution in the 20th century when soldiers turned there guns on officers because of public support and the state lost its direct power, its not foolish to talk about these things because that's exactly what your talking about when your talking about seceding.

So it was less a question of arms and more of a statement about understanding were your placing yourselves in the governments eyes, as soon as you pronounce the free state of cascadia the government will be willing to attack. People need to understand this. And no amount of "a peaceful cascadia" or "nature taking its course" will help keep people alive when the government comes knocking.

:other comments. I don't stand for white supremacy, racism, patriarchy, sexism, capitalism or imperialism all of which this country was founded on. I somehow doubt that the America you were born in has changed as much as you think it has. We were based on oppression, we continue to be based on oppression and we will continue to be based on oppression until the US, capitalism and hierarchy is destroyed.

But I digress...

1. How?
2. What organizing has occurred?
3. Any groups actually working on it?

You're dumb 18.Nov.2004 22:15

Political parties are DUUUUUUMB

1) it does matter if this is fueled by a failed election and will burn out in a month or two or if this is a serious call for secession.

2) Don't give me any holier than thou crap about how non-violence will show the world you were in the right. Does it really matter that you were right and they were wrong if you're dead? and trust, the gov't will fucking kill you without compunction.

3)Is asking the question "are anarchists bulletproof" foolish as well? If you think your moral highground of non-violent activism will protect you from the depleted uranium rounds coming through the walls of your house, or the noose they put around your neck for treason then go ahead and don't arm yourself. I intend to be prepared to defend msyelf.

4)Keeping up an information war does nothing but fuel an information war. How many groups or ideas have we watched flicker and fade because their facets were talked to death instead of acted on and developed in a working and evolving manner?

As for Mr. "Cascadia Emerging"... I have absolutely no intention of allowing you democratic DICKS to continue to infringe on my rights with your form of government. If I revolt I won't stop until I'm truly free. All your nonsense about abiding by the constitution and creating a country in the vein of the White Bourgeoise landowning slave-owning tax evading MALE American Revolution is bullshit.

just thinking 18.Nov.2004 23:33

mom

at different times in history there have been underground movements.. underground churches, underground railroad etc...
maybe its time for an underground country... one that thinks and plans and connects in alternative ways...
let's think about it... talk to each other ... in person not on the net

still... 19.Nov.2004 00:06

ack

Nobody from HERE, "cascadia" has answered these questions... why not? My replies on other related posts got prompt responces... seriously. How is this going to be any different than any of another million plans that have been talked to death on IMC.. what's to stop this cascadian secesion from becoming the next chemtrail debate? No cascadian organizers have come to my door asking for support or handing out information... the only place I've even seen this discussed is on IMC, or in these mysterious meetings at or near pioneer square. It would seem to me that so far, the whole thing has not had a lot of larger community involvement.
Don't get me wrong, Cascadian secesion is an exciting idea- I'm working with people to effect change already (though not in the exact same way) and I'm more than willing to help with the Cascadian effort IF it becomes a real supportable cause that has the ability to liberate people.

Lets get some answers. Lets get EVERYONE together to discuss this idea and it's implications- a well organized summit with everyone in attendance- from the red & black sporting anarchists all the way to the pissed off Kerry voters, just to talk about shit and let everyone know where everyone else is at. We all have very different ideas about what this should be, and already is.
Meetings at pioneer square advertised on IMC are fine and all, but we could and must do better if we want this off the ground.

you don't get to check the answers in the back 19.Nov.2004 00:22

until after you write the book

"Secede!" is six letters and a punctuation mark. One point of unity. That's it. It's not a person and is not going to answer your questions.

If you want to have a bigger meeting, call a meeting and get more people to show up.

Fine. Here's your answers. 19.Nov.2004 01:11

Bryan (spoiler)

1. Why do people want to secede?

Why do people want to seceed? That's an obscure question. Because amerika isn't alright. People are dying on the streets and as little as we know about government, we know what's right and what's wrong and what's going on in amerika is wrong. PPRC could do better and PPRC sucks.

2. Is this a movement built on the anger of the election? if so, what have groups done to build off this anger and make positive steps to social change?

Anger over the election hasn't built this movement, but it has been conducive to it. With the results of the election being so fucked, people are starting to see that amerika as a whole is fucked.

3. What are the groups working around this issue? What have they done?

dot dot dot. maybe I don't understand the question. There is a group of people meeting on saturdays. You should show up. This saturday at 7 at Laughing Horse Books.

4. So who has the guns? ...just kidding.

I'm without guns. I don't know who amoung us does and who doesn't. I'm not sure if violent revolution is neccecary or not, but if it is, I'm down. If it's not neccecary I'll do everything I can to avoid it.

5. No but serious. Who has the guns?(don't tell us we don't want to know) This is a serious question though. By talking about seceding your invoking east/west pakistan, biafra/nigeria, ireland/england, spain/basque, chechnya/russia, north / south USA some of the bloodiest conflicts that have happened in our freaking history. We gave this many examples just so people could roll them over in their minds, wars of terror, wars of death, and wars of attrition. This is what succession could mean. Are you willing to face this as a possibility when more people post on indymedia about changing the Cascadian flag, than show up to the first meeting of a pro cascadia group?

How many people came to our meeting marko? You don't know because you weren't there. More people were at the meeting than posted about the cascadian flag. Personally, fuck the cascadian flag.


6. Every single one of these succession movements was or have been built around grassroots organizing, what steps have been taken to begin to build this kind of movement?

We've had one meeting. We're working on that. Give us time.

7. Is it worth the effort? Not to sound lazy or anything but there is tons of work to be done, no matter what your politics are, what makes succession worth making it a priority?

It's worth the effort because, hey, it's hard to do worse. Maybe it'll be wonderful, and maybe it'll just be alright, but it certainly won't be like this shithole state we live in now.

8. If everything was to go perfectly, what is a timeline of events? Please be specific about social, economic and political events.

To me, within a year we start taking tangible movements toward secession. Who know how long it would take to make sure we will be able to feed everyone (CIP could certainly be of use) and house everyone etc. and I don't think we'll seceed until those variables have been met.


You should give me a call. You've either got my email or my numba, but I'd like to see CIP at these meetings, as a resource as well as valuable human beings with something to contribute.

I apologise... 19.Nov.2004 01:18

a terribly sorry bryan

my mind jumped to the word marko when I saw it and so I addressed marko without reading the name ellen. This must've appeared hugely sexist on my part and I apologise for that. No disrespect intended. Apply all the stuff that addressed marko to you as well. It's strange to see a post from two people, especially two people I know.

Parallel Universie 19.Nov.2004 17:12

alternative country

This idea for an underground and alternative country is interesting. That could be a way to consolidate and mobilize. It would help us to build a strong base and slowly supplant this totalitarian regime. Be careful, though. If it's successful, they won't like it any more than a violent revolution.

my quick answers to your questions 19.Nov.2004 17:42

no name

1. Secession because the American system is rotten to the core. Vote fraud is just a manifestation of the corruption of our presumably democratic government. We need to secede because we can do better for ourselves than the US is doing for us.
2. too many groups, too many positive steps to mention here. Right now, most of us are in defensive, rather than pro-active modes, trying to protect our rights, defend ourselves from cops and homeland security, or protest a war that shouldn't be happening. As a separate nation we can develop energy and environmental strategies that actually protect the environment, and political conditions that work toward social justice.
3. Lots of groups, not much done yet that I can see, except some good talk. Time to start walking it, I'd say.
4. me
5. I think a deep consideration of the idea of deterrence is a better idea than pursuing any aggressive militarism. Think of a skunk, for example, who deters attackers by stinking to high heaven. Or a desert, that deters visitors by being inhospitable and prickly. I believe Cascadia can secede non-violently, just by making itself not worth the trouble to fight.
6. It's happening right here, right now, and every day that people discuss this. That is grassroots, and so are we.
7. Yes.
8. Impossible to predict. But I'd say that being ready for opportunity is the key, something like a truly massive terrorist attack and red alert crackdown, or a broader war, or an economic meltdown, or some other upheaval that would lend itself to secession. Best case without a "galvanizing event" (sorry, PNAC, that goes both ways) is 5 years to spread and develop the idea, organize systems to support the new country (I know, not the best word), and formally separate ourselves from the empire.

Final thoughts: Believe, and it will be, baby. Just keep believing and it will be.

I love you both 20.Nov.2004 00:52

Raven

I love you both dearly and I just want you to know that what you are saying is full of good points and questions. I really think you should come to the meeting (e-mail or call me for more info) in order to address some of the things brought up in this article.
I also hope that people do not take this as "poking holes in the movement" because that is how the Bushies work. Anyone who has questions, even clarifying ones, is seen as someone out to poke holes in "sound" policy.
-Raven

Ellen? where are you? 20.Nov.2004 11:24

concerned

why hasnt Ellen written a comment back about this article. I am interested in what she has to say, could someone that knows her alert her of people wanting her opinion here?

Answer to question one, with justifications for not answering the rest 22.Nov.2004 13:39

Thimble mesa@cascadiarising.org

The reason I think I want secession is because as long as we are a part of the United States we are culpable for its crimes. If we can withdraw our support, then theoretically we can live as international neutrals, work on reforming our own corruption, and provide an example to others of the next step in progressive self-governance.

I'm not into the other specific questions of hows and whens. Perhaps I'm being childish, but I'm tired of planning planning planning the details, because even when things go exactly the way you've planned, there's still this odd feeling of just following a script. I'm much more interested in what other people think, I don't want to dominate the floor with my lame ideas. If secession is a good enough idea, more people will start to talk about it. If enough people want secession, an attempt will be made. For me, I think the challenge that that entails would be worthwhile. But I don't think it's something that people should have to be convinced of. And the details of the timeline are totally unpredictable. Right now I'd rather focus on trying to be a good person and hope that I will recognize what I have to do when the moments come. Which is, frankly, something all of us could probably use a little more of.

Secession for survival reasons 28.Nov.2004 21:53

is based on real events coming.

As Rome lurched into the oppression that we saw happening in Nazi Germany against people and the exessive laws and taxes that plagued the Roman Empire, and resources were increasingly put toward keeping the Roman legions happy, public support for the empire waned seriously, and led people to consider opting out and leaving the system, which they did.

The US is in exactly the same spot now. The only thing we have to offer the world is Military Power; combined with a plummeting dollar. To wit: Bush and his gang are trying to turn the US into the kind of country that China is: no freedom for people, no constitutional rights, no environmental controls to restrain free enterprise, no unions, no freedom of women's rights, a cheap dollar, and military protection for foreign capitalists to invest in the much weakened US.

Staring us and the Bush administration right in the face is the specter of Peak Oil and Climate Change. So why should we even consider secession?

I argue you can make the case for secession, whether it operates as an actual country or as a series of acts of resistance for the sake of preserving functioning communities and mutual support.

When our economy tanks, which I think it will soon, and when oil runs out, what will become of our country? I seriously think that America is no more as an idea, and that we are simply too big for our purposes. Peak Oil will guarantee downsizing on a massive scale, as will economic collapse.

With either one happening, I see a future of decentralization of power, food and water distribution, political power, land ownership, medical services, etc. Cascadia can happen as a regional movement saying "we will not play along when the destruction of our planet happens for the sake of corporate profit", and simply refuse to subsidize those institutions that harm our planet, either by purchase of their products, or outright payment of subscriptions or fees.

This administration and their corporate cronies understand one thing only: MONEY. We of Cascadia understand our responsibility to the planet, and the balance of natural forces for survival. Whereas theirs is short term greed, with nothing worthwhile to take after death, ours is long term in vision and wisdom, which we will take with us when we die, and leave as a lasting legacy to others left behind.

I cannot understand the Rovian/corporatist greed about money and wealth: we were born with nothing, and will take nothing with us when we die. So what is the bloody point of all this amassing of wealth, when it kills community? the earth? our dreams? It is mind blowing.

So, I say, let Cascadia continue as a dream, to be shared, a new hope, a mission of mutual empowerment of assuming responsibility for our station on this planet.

Carry the fire forward....

Commentary from Texas 10.Dec.2004 05:40

WhitewaterWoman

Well, now, this is a great discussion! As a moderate Libertarian who lives deep in the heart of Texas (and who voted for Michael Badnarik because I despise both W. Bush AND Kerry), I fully support what you people are talking about.

Here in Texas, we've had secession talk off and on ever since shortly after the civil war (which we like to call the War of Northern Aggression.) There are many voices in Texas right now talking secession for us. Some of our reasons are the same as yours--Iraq war, for instance.

But the main thing we Texans are very disturbed about is the growing police state that America is becoming. And yes, many of us are upset with W for giving us Texans a bad name (actually, we view him as a carpet-bagger, since he was not born here and uses our Texan image for ill purposes.)

Oh, and yes...of course, we do indeed have the guns. Many of them.

Personally, I think any group ought to be able to seceed from the USA, and it's high time. Good luck on the feds letting you go, though. What you'll want to look at is how many valuable natural resources you have that the feds will want to keep. You'll also want to consider how much publicity this gets, since if it's huge, the feds will HAVE to do try to quash you to save face.

Good luck and best wishes, y'all!