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Why We Are Seceding

Will will not be your partners in crime.

Why We Are Seceding

Author: Stephen DeVoy

I've seen many arguments, claims and retorts for and against the secessionist movement. I'd like to address those arguments, especially those which are fallacious, and then move on to the actual reason for secession.

It has been argued that we are seceding because we lost the elections. Our detractors say that Kerry was our candidate and now that Bush has "won", we are unwilling to accept defeat. This argument fails for many reasons, not the least of which is gross elections fraud. However, since our argument does not depend upon the question of election fraud, let me address the argument assuming for a moment that our detractors are correct when they claim that Bush "won" the elections.

President Bush came to power under questionable circumstances. While President of the United States of America he has demonstrated complete disregard for the Constitution of the United States. He has held individuals without charges, violated our privacy, quashed free speech, disrespected the decisions of the courts, made law through presidential decree rather than legislation, constructed an oppressive department whose purpose is to suppress liberty and terrify dissidents, engaged in gross violations of the rights of Americans based on their ethnicity and religious views, failed to respect the separation of Church and State, lied to the American people on numerous occasions, encouraged and abetted gross fraud in the allocation of contracts (e.g. Halliburton), waged an illegal war against another nation, tortured detainees and violated international treaties to which the United States of America is a party. For the preceding reasons alone, the Constitution of the United States, due to the disrespect shown to it by our President and lack of courage on the part of Congress and the Courts to defend the Constitution is no longer a binding document. As such, there is no legal basis to claim that United States of America, as defined by the Constitution and agreed to by the states continues to exist. To stand by and pretend that it still exists is to betray our dignity and give up our rights as free individuals. We intend to determine our own destiny, as is our right, and the choices before us are revolution or secession.

Revolution, in the sense of the overthrow of the U.S. Government will not work. Bush is largely popular within "the Red States." He may, indeed, have a mandate in "the Red States." Therefore, any revolution will devolve instantly into civil war. Since we recognize the right of the people of "the Red States" to determine their own destiny, we wish them luck (and believe they will need luck) and strike out on our own.

It should be obvious then, from the above, that our motivations are not based on the results of the election but on the usurpation of power, the violation of rights, and the unethical acts of the Bush government. Furthermore, many of us would have chosen this path even if Kerry "won" the elections. For those of us holding this position, we do not believe that Kerry would have substantially undone the actions of Bush for he agreed to the PATRIOT Act, supported war in Iraq and made no indication that he would bring that war to an immediate end.

Some supporters of George Bush claim that we are acting out as poor losers. This claim is absurd. We, The People, would have lost whether George Bush or John Kerry was selected as President of the United States. Those of us who did not declare our intent to secede before the "elections" were merely hopeful that some change, any change, might permit us to wait and see before taking drastic steps toward change. Now that we know that there will either be no change or a change for the worse, it is essential to our dignity, liberty and well being (as well as the dignity, liberty and well being of others on this planet), that we secede from the United States of America. We will be no part of this outrageous regime. We assert our right to self determination. If self determination necessitates secession, then we must secede.

Some of us have behaved as though we view the world as divided between "us" and "them." Indeed, I have at times felt as though this were true. However, now that the shock of a stolen election has passed, I realize that there are many Republicans who did not vote for George Bush, are indignant about his usurpation of power and oppose the war. Therefore, we should encourage secessionists to accept those among us, within our New England, as fellow New Englanders and invite them to join us on this journey of self determination. We are New Englanders all, Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, Green, Socialist, and Anarchist.

Finally, we assert that it is the right of all individuals to form associations and dissolve associations freely. No document can compel us to remain members of an association that we believe to be unethical, criminal and dictatorial. Moreover, our opponents cannot simultaneously argue that it is un-constitutional to secede while violating the Constitution themselves. The Constitution is a contract, not a menu. Our opponents have treated the Constitution as a menu and it is for this very reason that we reject the association that binds us. We intend to form a new entity which will conduct itself ethically, respect the right of self determination for the People of New England and disassociate itself with any criminal regime, including the United States of America.

homepage: homepage: http://www.stephen-devoy.com

right on! 11.Nov.2004 10:03


Let's take this piece into context when we're talking about secession here in cascadia. For one, it's great to hear that people are taking this seriously in various parts of the country. None of us stand a chance unless this is a movement that is happening many places and with seriousness and dedication- so that we can support eachother and build networks to fulfill one another's needs.

Second, the arguments laid out here are good ones. I especially like the "the constitution in a contract, not a menu" bit. We do have to remember that we have the constitutional right to change or abolish our government if our government voids the contract between us, and it is clear that this has happened in the past four years and will continue to happen. OUr constitutional rights are being stepped on all over the place. These are canaries in the mine shaft, singing loud and clear that the regime in power has no respect for the contract between the people and the government, and it is time to take the action necessary to determine our own freedom.

in solidarity,

And there would be.... 11.Nov.2004 12:27


no justifyable civil war?

Right. Let's get real.

All you liberals who want to join Canada either get your guns and start shooting or if you don't have the guts to do what the second amendment allows you to do then just get the fuck out...quietly.

I am liberal and I am tired of all this crap. I am ready to join the peoples militia but there is no movement just bitching. Shut up already cause it is clear that nobody is ready to put up. It would be far easier to allow Canadians to join the U.S. and far more valuable in terms of defining the course of the most powerful nation than dividing it.

Think about it...fools.

Ignore "Happy", he's a troll. 11.Nov.2004 14:00


This is one of those "let's see if I can bait them into declaring that they're prepared to take violent action" posts.

Hey, FBI agent, we don't call ourselves "liberals." We call ourselves things like "socialist", "anarchist", "green", "communist"...

Go back to school. Maybe you can get a real job.

Fuck the FBI.

"Justifyable"? 11.Nov.2004 15:44


Yes, go back to school and learn how to spell, loser.

STOP! 11.Nov.2004 17:57

Michael b

Stop trying to polarize the left. There are people that are quite pissed off about the decline of the term liberal. It has a lot to do with the failure of the party liberals alliegned themselves with, to really confront the facist takover of america. It also has somthing to do with a sense that Anarchists have not stood by thier leadership as a unified left. Some liberals are unable to see that the endorsement of neo globalization has had, or would have consequences. The betrayal of liberal leadership translated directly to the lives of laid off blue collar workers, imbittered american farmers, and polarization between radicals and liberals on the streets across this nation. Chauvanist militancy, or absolute passafism are not the answer. To suceed we must secede!


Before you start shooting... 11.Nov.2004 18:26


Before you start shooting I would advise you take a look at this map first - there were no blue "States" - just big population centers that changed the states electoral standing. Looks like a red sea with blue islands to me.
Sea of Red
Sea of Red

Looks like we got em surrounded. 11.Nov.2004 20:10


Who's talking about attacking them anyway? We're talking about liberating our communities.

99% of the red on the county map is empty space. 11.Nov.2004 20:42


Not significant. Additionally, nearly all of New England is blue, so we're out of here.

re Before you start shooting... 12.Nov.2004 00:07


re: red sea of blue islands. There's a simple solution. Break the seceded states up unto a whole bunch of tiny little countries that work together in some sort of alliance. "red" countries will develop republican-dominated governments and "blue" countries will develop more liberal governments. Being that the "other" guys will not have such influence over you anymore, it is a win-win deal. Also, it is a win-win deal with the other states that do not secede, as they no longer have to worry about their electorial votes and congress being thinned out by us. Much of rural eastern Oregon hates being connected with Portland/Salem/Eugene and would welcome secession if they could break off from the "blue" areas and govern themselves.

Also, nobody's gonna start shooting. There's no need for guns and civil war. Just pass initiatives in our states that declare our states to be independent sovereign nations. If the christo-fascist federal government disagrees, ignore it. Be like another Taiwan. It's not like they're gonna send in troops.

confused 12.Nov.2004 01:17

and backwards

"Allow" Canadians to join the U.S.?


Canada (& the British Empire) DEFEATED several attempts BY the U.S. to ANNEX it during our, uh, largely forgotten history as, er, neighbors. Americans are hardly walling Canada off. The Canadian-U.S. border is the iron curtain below which the Brits have the U.S. contained. The last thing the Canucks want is to join the U.S. Go up there and invite them and their nicest response will be to laugh at you.

Remember "Fifty-four forty or fight"? Probably not.

Here's a clue: The border is still at forty-nine.

hmmmm 12.Nov.2004 01:22


> It's not like they're gonna send in troops.

It's true. The Man is in an especially bad position to deal with a secession movement right now. It would mean giving up on Asia, pulling out, and rather than letting the troops rotate out, redeploying them against blue state "insurgents." How many soldiers would just say "fuck this," walk away from their tanks, get on a Greyhound and go home?

It's called a draft folks. 12.Nov.2004 06:16

code blue

If they institute a draft, and press gangs that won't matter. If they think we'll roll over they'll do it. The Canadians wouldn't allow us to join because it would be strategicly dangerious and threaten to undermine the solubility of thier own state. The best we could hope for would be an alliance of principles, or trade. I agree with the previous poster that said "nobodies talking about attacking the government, rather we're talking about independance and liberty for our own communities." In order to secure this liberty we must be able to forceably defend ourselves, defense is the answer. We need to ensure that no one extremist position undermines our common goal of creating a movement that can secure liberty. I mean absolute pacafism, or chauvanist militancy need to both be put asside in a drive to build a common front for the liberation of our communities.


cascadia 12.Nov.2004 21:35



put the 12.Nov.2004 22:19

bong down

Before you get a cluster bomb up your ass, get your shit together.

1. What puts food on your cities plate.

2. Who puts the food there and for what.

3. Thats politics.

4. Once you got that figured you can represent, eliminate, or cooperate.

5. Thats the real world.

People Power! 12.Nov.2004 22:55

Brent Herbert

Don't succede, but rather join us. Do not divide but unite, for united we stand and divided we fall, and we will fall pretty damn far, too, so falling is something we don't want to be doing especially with that Nazi and his city razing massacres on the loose..


HA. 13.Nov.2004 01:07


I love the concept of cascadia, the reality is that we are farther from cascadia than we were ten years ago........we are stuck with this mess....the republicans won the election because they use language better than anybody else....this is where the battle is and it's the only way to win......We need to be persistant, relentless, smart and patient.....hopefully we will keep attracting like minded folks to our region.....this is not a time to be looking for glamorous or quick solutions........it's gonna get worse before it get's better...be smart, be patient...
..if we want what we talk sbout we will build it right here in town.....lets start by figuring out how to get portland city council, mayor and police representin...ha

Yes, STOP! 13.Nov.2004 06:11


Yes, Stop trying to polarize the left.

This freaky. Although I have never thought 'Michael b' was on the other side, I have often criticised sharply his specific proposals. This time I say, read again his comment above. He has nailed the issue dead-centre : do not polarize the left; do not allow anyone to polarize you.

If I ever see anyone strolling across the Willamette, I'll say, sure, I guess we better follow Her. Until then, we are all feeling our way blindly. We all would be wiser to watch new initiatives supportively, ready to copy what works. Not to condemn entire programs for minor perceived flaws.

Having said that, I must disagree (and my disagreement is entirely consistent with my agreement) with this important detail : "It has a lot to do with the failure of the party liberals alliegned themselves with,". That party, both of them, maybe all five or ten of them, did not _fail_. Their purpose is to divert dissent and to channel it to contrary uses. They succeeded admirably.

The failure is a failure of liberals, and others. The failure is allign themselves with one or another of the various parties. It is a failure even in terms of the threadbare mythology those parties claim to manifest, that the government express the will of the people.

I cannot imagine any more abject failure than to allign one's will with that of the government.

Food 13.Nov.2004 06:20


'put the bong down' has identified the fundamental issue. The primary reason Cascadia must exist. And the primary problem Cascadia must solve.

How do we put food on our plates?

Whoever controls food, water, environmental toxins, controls us.

to happy 13.Nov.2004 09:36


Dear Happy;
Thanks for your offer to "allow" Canada to join the U.S. That is totally absurd ..WE DON'T WANT TO JOIN THE U.S.

Shades of red and blue 13.Nov.2004 11:37


Things are not red or blue but shades of purple.


see! 13.Nov.2004 13:32


We got em surrounded!

How do I get to the meeting today? 13.Nov.2004 13:37


How do I get to the meeting today?

I really want to go and work to unify our opposition to the facists!
This is soo cool that people are really getting serious about our collective problems, as collective problems. I hope we secede!

How do I get to the meeting today?

Republic of California! 13.Nov.2004 14:07

James Kurka jameskurka@hotmail.com

Sounds good doesn't it! I think we should take our worlds 5th largest economy to go! The south likes to villify the good people of L.A. and S.F, they make fun of our federal courts for siding with citizens rights instead of corperations rights and blame hollywood for all thats wrong with America! If there not blaming hollywood there blaming Bill Clinton. In our new Republic of Califonia we will demand accountability from our future leaders. When we seceed we will extend the invitation to Oregon and Washinhton. Lets not forget that the south considers you to be the Godless northwest! Do you want to be apart of that? It's time to ask the south if they would like a second chance to seceed, until then we must consider all options. SELF DETERMINATION! James  Kurka@hotmail.com

(323) 960-8517

running away 13.Nov.2004 15:31


i really like all these blue-red-purple-magenta maps of the country, its almost as fun as our color-coordinated terrorism warning levels. isnt there a few basic realities people are missing, most blue/red states/counties/cities whatever, are pretty evenly split. the republicans did not win in a landslide they won barely over 50% (although im one that beleives that alot of the vote was faked) even within oregon almost half voted for bush, does clackamas county not get involed in the seccesion? there is no poular support for what you purpose. sorry, id like to see it as well but its just not realistic. even if it did, by some miracle, happen within 24 hours the govt. would take us back over!
shouldnt we insted try to change our society now? shouldnt we take this moment to re-engergize the movement to give the power back to the people? or should we say "fuck you, we're headed off on our own" and run away from this countries problems? if we truly do care about the poor, about the worlds ecological state, about the U.S. having to much control, than shouldnt we fix it from the inside, shouldnt we become a virus to it instead of running away from it? we would be betraying everything to start a new, small, coutry and just let a majority of the world rot while we sit in our comfortable little "utopia" we would be equivilant (sorry, i cant spell) to a c.e.o. sitting in his ivory tower and not caring what happens to everyone else because him and his friends are happy, comfortable, and safe. if you want to turn your back on people that really need help, well then, go for it, more power to you. i hope you can save the world wielding all the power that comes with running a coutry that will end up slightly larger than lichtenstein.

Wow 13.Nov.2004 15:45

Adam V. vavrooski@yahoo.com

While I understand the desire of many people to secede; first I just don't think it will work, the number of people that share these views just isn't high enough, second, there are still many great things about this nation, and we shouldn't give up on it just yet.

The two biggest problems among our population are ignorance and apathy, and the corruption within our governmaent isn't going to change unless we enact some major finance reform. This whole us and them mentality isn't helping, if anything a lot of people that are on the fence politically, or leaning right a little bit, are turned off by how extreme we are. Let us recall the recent origins of our countries extreme dichotomy between the left and the right, the Bush administration. "If you're not with us you're against us." And when we do it we're no better. If you actually sit down with most conservatives and talk to them about the issues, you'd find that a lot of them have similar goals as us, but they have different ideas on how to get there. And if we want to show them how the intellectual foundation of our country is being destroyed by the current administration and it's policies, we'd have more luck if they were our friends as opposed to our enemies. Maybe you don't see them as enemies, but the polarization gives it that feel.

I don't vote republican, and it'll probably be a cold day in hell before I ever do, but not all of them are corrupt. When we talk about the corruption within the Bush administration we shouldn't focus on the republican aspect of it. There is plenty of corruption in both parties, albeit a little more with republicans. As republicans go, these are really bad examples, they are radical right wing neo-cons, abcolutely bent on money and power, but when we focus on the republican aspect of this people tend to internalize the criticism, as if we are some how calling them corrupt, or saying they support the corruption. This just makes people defensive, and as anyone who has done much debating can tell you, when someone gets defensive, 99% of the time, they aren't going to see your points, no matter how eloquently and persuasivelly you make them.

SO how about we first focus our attention on getting these ballots recounted, cause there is definetely something fishy going on there. Then start pushing campaign finance refom harder and harder, because our current system breeds corruption, and if we don't modify our methods of funding these people, nothing is going to change.

Adam Vavrus

Yeah right... 13.Nov.2004 16:17

big foot

While I would love to see this happen, there ain't no flippin' way it will come to pass. Does anyone really think the feds will sit by while a bunch of malcontents try to make off with some of the most valuable real estate in the world? Let's not forget there are a number of military bases to consider. Are you simply going to ask them to move out?

Is this where we've ended up? Have we become so desparate that we choose to live in a fantasy world to exist?

California sattire 13.Nov.2004 16:23

James Kurka jameskurka@hotmail.com

I was being silly, the point is the south says we make fun of them. It takes 2 to tango and I was highlighting how the south villifys Hollywood (where I'm from),San Fran. and the Godless North-west. We are of lower moral fiber because we would give rights to all tax paying citizens. Because we respect others rights even when we dis-agree with them. I'm a Born again Christian in Hollywood, imagine that, and I have a Question to the kings of moral values in the south. Who would Jesus bomb? Is it a moral value to kill 100,000+ civilians in Iraq. Where are your moral values when it's not election time? James Kurka

(323) 960-8517

people seem to forget 13.Nov.2004 16:30


Secession movements have never had majority support and have always faced overwhelming odds. Yet, some, though not all, have been successful. We wouldn't have a country if a minority of people hadn't decided to stand up to the East India Company and their financial and military backers the British government and the British aristocracy. Of course, the US government is far more tyrannical and more entrenched (just imagine if the British had tv to control their colonists). But one doesn't fight for liberty only if one thinks it is achievable. One fights for liberty because it is the right thing to do. We must also remember that these are long processes. I do believe that the US will be broken up into smaller countries in the not too distant future and it could be beneficial to shape that process. But I don't think anyone is talking about raising weapons tomorrow. In the meantime people need to keep the revolutionary spirit kindled within themselves while supporting the changes they wish to see.

Weapons, fighting, war for liberation? 13.Nov.2004 17:07

Skella Brega

Well I don't think we need to worry so much just yet about an actual war or fight with the Amerikanskis. Instead we might wanna focus on the immediate need for popularizing this Cascadia secessionist movement, this is our land afterall and we don't want much to do anymore with the U.S. and its fascist cravings.

We can arrive at our own best means for providing our needs as a free union of ppl here. Food, utilities, shelter, and the work of maintaining our autonomy will be on the order of each day from now on. We can do this though, it's what we must do and no one is gonna come along and rescue us from Amerika.

Seek empowerment from within, we don't need to worry about permission from the established social order. We're doing this and we're making it up along the way, there'll be no one to stop us this time.

(OT) Miami Model Video 14.Nov.2004 02:48


Sorry for the not particularly relevant post, however I am desperatly in search of a decent quality version of the Miami Model Documentary. Unfortunately the format they provide for download is Low quality quicktime, not really suitable for a showing. I intend to order a copy, put I planned a showing and forgot. Anyone with any helpful links, etc. your advice would be appreciated. Thank you.

mrttt001 (at) letterboxes.org

Fear is not the answer 14.Nov.2004 13:31

Michael b

This is a movement that has been stunted to a state of seemingly permanant infancy. We seek your help in changing that. It is a movement to gain political power for many struggles by taking community power back from the federal, and in some cases state governments. Putting the real power to make decisions in the hands of communities. Making decisions about our common destinies on a scale that is democratic. On a scale that multinational corperations will not be able to compete with. If we shift the focus of our identities to real community based control, then the multinational oppressors will be the "outsiders" and not people that carry a just sense of indignation at the oppression of thier communities.
Right now, people are so caught up in the national identity of America that it seems a relevant choice for us to be arguing about the futures of lands our nation is oppresing, and dominating abroad. How can americans do somthing just, or "install" democracy on others when it doesn't exist here? We are not alone in recognizing that the system of democracy in america is broken, and hyjacked. Now is the time to check our focus, and look twards a scale of human expierence that we can democraticly control. Now is the time to build a dialoge on how our struggles can work together. NOT to dim any struggle down, but to make key and vital changes that each struggle wants through working togther, and demanding community based democracy!

James Kurka do not back pedal! What you said is just! Your inclination twards community control is a moral inclination. Just as the federal government continues to attack our right to determine that our sickist should have the option of death with dignity here, they have attacked your peoples right to determine that ALL SEXES SHOULD BE EQUAL! Stand your ground, and demand community based democracy. There is a town in California that has outlawed corperate personhood, this is just one example of what socially just, community power can do. Build on this!

I am a person that that is sickened by the power national and multinational powers have in my community. Right here in oregon the Pharmacutical Reaserch and Manufacturers Association spent upwards of thirty six million dallors lobbying to kill socialized medicine in oregon, and they've all but suceeded. I know people that depended on that just, and decent, access to health care. They are one of the biggest lobbys on DC but my community will not have the power to check thier influence untill it recognizes it is a community and acts to defend its soveriegn right to democracy!


I will respond directly. The isolationist attitude you envision in us, is the real fiction here. What we want is a national network of free states! The fiction is that democracy works over 270,000,000 people. The very least our efforts will accomplish is that instead of a backstepping dialogue on bushes "mandate," we will be pressing forward, and forging peoples indignation into a dialogue on the state of democracy in america. Isn't this exactly what you say you want?
That we can compete with the multinational capitalist enterprises on the scale of 270,000,000 is a falacy. That americans would even feel empowered to try?! Running away? Did you even read the article? We're turning around looking our neighbors in the face and asking "Who are we?"

growing/foraging food 4 seccesion 14.Nov.2004 14:16


above comments mentioned the importance of growing our own food..

Freedom from petrochemical based fertilizer, pesticide, herbicide, etc.. Organic permaculture farms could replace the agribusiness monoculture farms that have taken over most of the land. Reclaiming the commons is about restoring land to the people, not corporations. Our dependency on agribusiness and their heavy water, pesticide, fertlizer use is part of the reason we're in this mess in the first place (war 4 Iraqi oil, dams on rivers choking salmon, topsoil erosion, loss of beneficial insects, etc..)

Bioregional permaculture farming will give almost everyone some role in growing their own food, from community co-op gardens to rooftop plants, food production is returned to the people, not corporate agribusiness..

Foraging 4 native foods;

Acorns are available for food prep if only people would be able to collect and harvest without barbed wire fences in the way. Here is a free food source utilized by indigenous peoples for thousands of years and currently not being used by hardly anyone. The squirrels can only eat so much, many acorns lie on the ground and eventually rot. A Pomo elder said that the oaks are dying ("sudden oak death") because people stopped caring for them. When a living being is unloved, the result is usually depression and weakening of the immune system. Could have something to do with lowered immune resistance to disease instead of a new "SOD" pathogen. This is just one example of available native food that isn't being appreciated. Madrone and manzanita berries are others among many..

We also need to recognize the indigenous people are the caretakers of the land we called "America" or "Cascadia" or whatever. This land is stolen and needs to be returned to the care of indigenous people..

Points to ponder 14.Nov.2004 17:27


The Soviet Union was considered invincible. Revolt was thought impossible. Then, it crumbled, seemingly overnight. More than anything, it simply lost legitimacy; insufficient people motivated to hold it together.

The United States could as easily wake up some morning and discover it is no longer.

Within a generation USA will be defeated, obviously, militarily and economically. Already, it cannot defeat a country larger than Granada without massive support from hired mercenaries -- and acquiescence from the rest of the world. The world will insist that USA be broken up.

Cascadia will never be allowed to secede; the corporations need a strong central government. However, if a thoughtful, articulate, well-known Cascadia Movement exists when USA crashes or is crushed, it would have a very good chance of snatching the appropriate pieces from the fire.

Cascadia's opportunity would be multiplied, if a network of mutually-supportive bioregional movements existed. It is also necessary to cross the mountains, make certain there are people to talk to, and that we agree where borders are and what can be traded under what terms. We would perish quickly, were Conan to seize California and send troops northward.

Arnie's sturmtroopers 14.Nov.2004 19:09

oughta know where the damn border is

The southern border of Cascadia (a.k.a. "the Oregon Country," where Yanks, Brits & Indians co-existed for a long time without any of the three groups completely dominating the others) seems to have been formalized at the 42nd parallel for about two hundred years, since California included Utah and it was all part of Mexico. So all that stuff seems pretty stable, unless people want to start haggling over it now. In case anybody cares.

Indigenous Awareness 15.Nov.2004 11:24


Yes, we absolutely must remember that this land ALREADY belongs - by tradition and treaty - to its aborginal caretakers. And has since time immemorial. For so many nations to have existed here for so long, they must have figured out ways that worked in balance with each bioregion in which they lived. That kind of wisdom and experience is desperately needed at this time, and we non-indians need to humble ourselves and ask respectfully if we might learn from our more experienced neighbors.

And before we go off half-cocked in another whitey land grab, we non-indians need to ask what our indigenous neighbors would like and how we can best honor THEIR efforts at sovereignty. Remember, they cannot SECEDE as they never agreed to the Union in the first place. It was a forced marriage from start to finish.

Also, we should look to the non-humyns for guidance as they have been here for millions of years longer than any of the two-leggeds. And since many of them live very close to us, their knowledge and experience is easy accesible as long as we approach them respectfully.

So go outside already!! A world of wonder and solidarity awaits...

Look around. 15.Nov.2004 18:51


White people are everywhere, blacks are everywhere, hispanics are everywhere. Yes this is indigenious peoples land. It is occupied land. Yes there needs to be major land concessions, and respect, and work done to achive key goals of indigenious struggle. Key goals of many struggles. Let's build a movement that includes this. If you want to see things continue as they are, you could refrain from contributing ideas as to how we can get there together. I'll admit, it's a pretty effective way to marganalize what we're saying. Hell, what anyone, and everyone, that believes in social justice says. Every social justice struggle says it's my way or the highway. Meanwhile, facists meticuliously gather more, and more, power to control our lives. Facism, it ain't a town in germany. Listen to the radio and you'll hear totalitarian ultra nationalists like newt gengrich on opb, gloating about how they're gonna criminalize the democratic party's funding. Don't like a two party state? How do you think you're gonna like a one party state. They think socialized healthcare is a terrorist conspiracy. How do you think they feel about indegenious struggle. I apologize, I'm bieng defensive. Anyone with any vauge inclination twards social justice is bieng systematicly kicked out of the houses of government, flat on thier asses. The leadership of the democratic party has been sucking up, and cowering to facists for too long. Look where it got them. Will we cower, and run our seperate ways? If you stand I will stand with you. I ask the same.

Arnie's sturmtroopers 15.Nov.2004 20:19


They probably know how to read, too.

Already they have an advantage.

egalite pour la femme dans la revolution 16.Nov.2004 00:28


your article is true to the point of a just livability and is only lacking in the point that you are americans pleging alleigence to the original revolutionaries that founded america. you are justly complaining those people were betrayed and you wish to secede and live as originally planned. the problem here is that the workers revolution demands the doubling of democracy and that means electing women equally, one man and one woman per constituency, pollitically, and judicially, so that woman makes half the laws throughout society in each and every calendar year. this revolution is not fully adressed by the mear act of sucession. therfore the need to build liberated areas that are communal and independent and self-reliant is your immediate project. working together ends poverty and the worker-peasant alliance is forever. so back to the earth and become independent food(organic), clothing, and shelter. that way a social america becomes a living reality in peace with the world and free to the livability. wars end when you scrap the war machine and its manufactury.. gogo trie till victory.

# 1 issue 16.Nov.2004 03:58

Adam Vavrus vavrooski@yahoo.com

All I read is a bunch of complaining about problems, with the few solutions that realistically address the problem. The problem is corruption within our government, right, we've got good ideals, they're just not practically working out. Why aren't they working out? Because we have a system of campaign financing that breeds corruption. So we need to change the system. Obviously it isn't that easy, and their is a lot of entrenched power to fight in this battle for political autonomy. But if we could all realize that nothing is going to start changing until we get some campaign finance reform, we might actually get enough support to pass proper legislation. There are still a few people in congress who will enact legislation to curb the power that corporations have over our government. But spewing all this reactionary BS isn't helping our fight to save American democracy. To some people on our side, most people on fence and basically all conservatives, it comes off as extremely radical, and hurts the percieved validity of more pragmatic arguments. Eventually it works to soften the credibility of our progressive movements. So get real!

Adam Vavrus

Socially "conservative" dems will kill thier party. It's already happening. 16.Nov.2004 06:25


Dems are where they are because they supported the wto. You are "reacting" to a state of neo-globalization by appealing to social conservatism, we are pro-activly trying to circumvent. That road leads to redscares, and roundups for people I love.
The republicans won't "accept" you for this, they will consume you. They brag about it on the radio. What? You don't believe them? That they'll do what they say? The dems supported the wto, the war, the patriot act, and earned themselves a reputation for bieng indistinguishable from the republicans. Good job.

pledging allegiance 16.Nov.2004 07:38


Actually, they are not pledging allegiance to the original american revolutionaries. They are pledging to the corporate/Disney/CNN perversion.

And it is not working out because it was designed not to work.

Fortunately, an anarchist community, which understoods "anarch" to mean "no ruler", and "all" to mean "every last one, including the weaker ones and the unpopular ones", and "men" to include "men with uteri, even when they aren't offering dinner or sex", ... in short, any anarchist anarchist-community, has no trouble knowing when to follow a principle and when to subordinate it to another, when to use an authoritarian structure like a party and when to dismiss it.

As another poster reminded us recently, water flows around obstacles -- and it fills completely any container, too.

Dare to dream, and ACT on it 16.Nov.2004 23:53


Discussion on food and transformation of society needs to have something as it focal point of reference: that is Peak Oil. With the end of cheap easily available petroleum, we will face major shortages of food and water in cities. No one seems to be asking this. The other question needs to be addressed: that of population density. Can we have a Cascadia that has a population base that is sufficiently supported by the land? It must if we want to survive.

I urge you all to watch the video End of Suburbia: Oil Depletion and the Collapse of the American Dream, which is available at

www.peakoilaction.org or

On the issue of food further, we need to be able to feed people directly from the city land. In Peak Oil Action's website www.peakoilaction.org is an article from Community Solutions.org of how Cuba is doing just fine having gone organic after the collapse of the Soviet Empire. Check it out. One third of Havana's land area is now urban gardens!

Oh. and don't let those wussy nay-sayers say that Cascadia is not possible.

okay, back to kindergarten 18.Nov.2004 01:09

to explain 2+2 to the Democrat

Adam, you're not helping. You're trying to change the subject. Your analysis of how radical and moderate forces interact in social change is unsophisticated and wrong. Moderates usually get more out of radical activity than the radicals do. Just go away. Read a book. Or thirty.

You think 18.Nov.2004 03:07

Adam Vavrus vavrooski@yahoo.com

I do read a lot of books actually, I'm a history major and American History is my focus. I am very liberal and very progressive, but seceding is reactionary, radical, extremism. You can argue that it's what we need, but you can't argue what it is, seceding represents the far left view, about as far as it goes. I can't believe people here are actually advocating an anarchist society. It actually makes me question whether they've picked up many books. Large groups of people need rules and laws to abide by, otherwise we have no way of holding people accountable for their deviant and unethical actions. This is just basic anthropology my friend. Throughout the course of history as populations have grown in size and density, the social structures become more intricate and varied, as a way of maintaining order. And order needs to be maintained, without it little progress occurs. If we were to secede and let anarchy rule, we would fail. For secession to even have the slightest potential for success, a detailed plan of action, as well as formal plans for a government with adequate checks and balances would have to be designed. We would have to sieze upon the failures of our current system, and rectify their shortcummings.
Ya'll seem to think I somehow stump your efforts at secession, but I believe it is these extreme views, that scare people off, and weaken our cause and it's credibility. We should focus on the fact that this presidency was cheated, and spread the word of all the protests that have occurred, they can only suppress our voice if we let them.
N-E ways, I'm going to bed, I've been up for about forty hours straight now, I work 3 jobs and go to school full time, and I was up all of last night writing a research paper about American work values and the mechanization of industry. DO you know what the mechanization of industry was, or how it is extremely relevant in today's society?

Adam Vavrus
P.S. Please, insult my intelligence, don't focus on the issues and their many details. Attack me personally, that's showing real progress. Wait...... who else in our society likes to form personal attacks as the basis of their arguments. HHmmmm.. Let us not forget who spurred this extreme dichotomy that has recently occurred in our society, it was the Bush administration. The whole you're either with us or against us mentallity. Isn't this line of thinking, and way of addressing social issues just playing right into their hands?