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Time to Secede! Would Canada Welcome Us?

Return California to Mexico and bump the rest of us up with Canada. They've certainly got their problems (and maybe they wouldn't want us because of ours) but it's a thought.
I'd prefer to not leave my home of 35 years but I'm not sure I can survive the next 4. Any suggestions?

Living With Neanderthals 02.Nov.2004 22:27

Harmony

Unless you are pretty well off, you won't have a choice; you'll be squeezed out. You won't be able to afford to live here. And no one will care. I, too, am considering leaving because I don't want to be associated with people who would elect a cheat, a liar, and a fascist . . . but where to go? The whole world is getting crazy.

I own two small, friendly bull breed dogs. The province of Ontario (which under ordinary circumstances I like very much) is in the process of banning everything from Boston Terriers to Mastiffs by calling them all "Pit Bulls". If they succeed, other provinces will follow.

When will the insanity stop?

hell if i know 02.Nov.2004 22:29

dwight

i guess we need to keep pushing, making it known what bush and his administration have done, and have them punished like the criminals they are.

just more wishful thinking...

*sob*

now 02.Nov.2004 22:32

maggie

no, okay: oregon, washington, california. our own fucking country.

Why not form our own country? 02.Nov.2004 23:06

someone

I doubt Canadians or Mexicans would welcome us snobby stupid arrogant U.S. Americans. This is our own self-created problem to solve. With this election, we made a major statement to the rest of the world about our character (that is, the character of the U.S. American people, not just its government). It's not a pretty picture.

Why not form our own country? States that don't want to be facsist can simply become a band of independent sovereign nations working together and supporting each other, or perhaps they can all form a new country. Or perhaps us western lesser-fascist states (OR, WA, CA, Hawaii) could form one country and the northeastern group of lesser-fascist states could form another.

On the other hand, it might be worthwhile to have elections in each precinct, or as small of voting districts as we can divide the state into. They would choose whether that precinct remains facsist or becomes free. Then we divide up the state accordingly and those that choose freedom become a new country. Then, those who choose freedom can also escape such crap as our new homophobic constitution.

love to seceed, but 02.Nov.2004 23:28

abe lincoln

the military bases in ca and wa are too important to allow secession.
Let us hope that kerry shows the same moxie as bush when it comes to taking office through litigation after losing the popular vote.
Let us hope that tomorrow's protesets are peaceful. Now that this junta has a "mandate," the senate, the house, and 3 appointments to the supreme court, we are going to see them take off the gloves, and democrats/other are held in the same regard as residents of fallujah.
This is some scary shit.

I'm with you 02.Nov.2004 23:51

Bear

I want to secede....count me in, I'm there!

I think I recall that Thoreau seceded all by himself...I believe he declared that he was a sovereign individual not beholden to the State, although I'd have to re-read or scan Walden and/or Civil Disobedience to recall exactly what he said.

Anyway, I declare my intention to secede. I do not recognize the legitimacy or authority of this government. It does not deserve my allegiance.

Goodbye forests -hello sprawl 03.Nov.2004 00:04

G

Measure 37 PASSED! DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS?? Developers and timber companies will have a fucking FREE FOR ALL!!! Goodbye Oregon-it was nice Knowing ya.

Please stay 03.Nov.2004 00:34

They want you to leave

We should stay and fight this. Remember that Nixon got re-elected while the Watergate investigations were going on. He never finished his second term. Bush is a bigger criminal than Nixon ever was. He should not finish his term. People in his administration are already starting to leak things. It will only get worse for him. A second Republican president will leave office in shame before his term is over.

Alive 03.Nov.2004 03:54

notquick

We are alive, and it is certainly time we started doing the shit alive people do, and the things we should do. Directly. Nothing ever happens unless people do it, voting and other such crap is just a formal excuse for those who disagree with it to remain actionless. 37, 36, Bush, and a whole lot of other shit from long before we have to deal with now.

If we want our forests, we need to occupy them. That means getting the news of these things out, off indymedia and dispersed into the community. we act as if coal power plant run computer communication systems hardly accessible to most people are less environmentally destructive and anti-forest than news papers. well shit forest voice, print yourself on some fucking recycled paper! Seriously if our means do not embody our ends well never get there. Use the pdx iww coop print shop using recycled paper and plant based ink. Until the news is out, you cannot expect the community to support it, they dont even know about it! im not saying we dont yet, im saying its obviously not effective enough.

If we want to crush authorized discrimination, we need to demand, by our actions, legal marriage and the elimination of successful enforcement of this ne discriminatory policy. take a page for the Civil Rights movement, even so simple as havingmassive sit ins at county clerk offices physically obstructing the carrying out of discriminatory practices. and im sure we can come up some better tactics than that.

We need a culture of direct action. That means we need to start getting some serious and popular results, and it means we need to cultivate a culture that believes in direct action as a legitimate way of making society. Creating a culture is not at all impossible, look at how far right this country has moved in the last decade alone! Besides the actual real events (these trees, these people, these economics, these police), weve got to promote direct action. not in the black mask way, but in the real members o the community way. so long as this movement of change excludes the majority of the population, or even its own communities, it cannot hope to change society. until we stop scaring everyone with our tactics and become human to the people whose lives are directly effected by whats going on that we want to stop, we willhave no back up. is it not clear yet? WE NEED MORE BACK UP! if the community stands up, no ammount of force can put it back where it was. get the info beyond indymedia. make it real so goddamn real they people it concerns cannot escape it. (not by cutting down their trees, by showing them the poisons in their water because of deforestation, etc)

And as for any potential Resident authoritarian, they dont have interest in us. the only debate was under whom we would have more freedom to have interest in ourselves. all that is behind us now, however it turns out. Now the realtask begins (and for some of us continues) to control our own lives, to control ourselves. im droning

peace and hope and something very real

for the pots and kettles 03.Nov.2004 07:15

TheTroll

What's with all he complaining. 99% of the voters voted for a candidate who reloads the Zionist crusader's guns as fast as the bloodsoaked Zionist crusaders can unload them into our Palestinian neihgbors. Bush for 4 years, Kerry for 20. You Democraps deserve Bush. And you Republitrash would have deserved kerry.

Right On 03.Nov.2004 08:42

Spastica Rex

Dear TheTroll,

Truer words have yet to be spoken -- your comments are *anything* but a troll in my opinion. Woohoo! The SuperBowl is over and we can go back to work.

Ecotopia now 03.Nov.2004 08:46

leroy

the time has come to organize and work cooperatively...think of things we can do as a group. More co-op and anarchist-type houses. workshops on permaculture and gardening, dumpster diving 101, sharing resourses, free school, anything that would NOT support this government and the war machine. other ideas? there will be a War Tax Resisters meeting at Laughing Horse Books Nov 15th at 7:00.

Republic Of Cascadia! 03.Nov.2004 09:13

BattleCry

It's an idea already in the works. All people have to do is take it seriously and make it happen.

 http://zapatopi.net/cascadia.html
 link to www.google.com

Secede? Fat chance, but why not? 03.Nov.2004 09:19

The Secretary

It would not likely ever happen, but it would stir up a tremendously useful controversy. I am all for taking the first step. What is it? Anybody reading these pages know what the process is?

See: IRA for examples 03.Nov.2004 09:31

BattleCry

First read up on strategy and how to defend yourself from a large military. Next you take up arms and get trained. You read a proclaimation of independence. Then you defend that right to your death. It helps if you have connections with other sympathetic countries for weapons and/or backup. But you have to be very serious and prove yourself legitimet before you'll get any of those interests.

So are we serious or are we just full of hot air and bullshit?

Yes to Ecotopia 03.Nov.2004 09:39

Bear

Leroy, you are right on target. I am convinced that the best way to bring down the sick sorry Amerikan system is total noncooperation. For example, economic boycotts, tax resistance, anti-consumerism, barter, resource sharing. We need to create and build our own support networks and build a completely new society outside of the mainstream.

Re: dumpster-diving: As I write this I'm sitting in my dumpster-dived chair eating my freegan breakfast. The consumerist society is so wasteful that you can furnish your whole place and clothe yourself out of dumpsters. You can get a fair amount of food this way also, and there are some gleaners groups in town. We've gotten our best stuff in dumpsters in the Alameda and Laurelhurst neighborhoods. I'd say we've obtained over $4000 worth of free stuff in the past year alone. If its something we can't use, we give it away. We took a bunch of stuff to Dignity Village. Our haul has included three Oriental rugs, leather chair, bookcases, complete set of outdoor furniture, gardening equipment including pots, seeds and potting soil, backpacks, lots of clothes including spendy designer jeans we'd never ever buy (!), a full set of dishes still in the box, somebody's collection of X-rated videos from the '70's (I'm not kidding!), lamps and light fixtures, pots and pans- you name it, we've found it.

I grow enough vegetables for our family and to donate some to the emergency food programs on a regular basis. Doing all these things enable us to live well at an income under the federal poverty level and therefore not pay war taxes. We haven't had to work full time jobs either. This frees up time to do volunteer work, art, and gardening.

In summary, the society we live in is completely f****d up and I really want no part of it. Instead I want to live in accordance with my own beliefs to the greatest extent possible, and help others wherever I can.

Republic of Cascadia-more 03.Nov.2004 09:43

Anti-Fascist

Here is the main site for the Republic of Cascadia hosted by the Cascadian National Party!



FYI:


Dumpster diving culture is not sustainable 03.Nov.2004 09:56

The Secretary

Dumpster diving is a great way to survive with inadequate resources and a good way to divert useful items from landfill, but it is totally dependant on the dominant consumerist culture to continue its wasteful ways. The direction the world is going will eventually break down. When that happens there must be a viable survival strategy ready for those who choose to live in a new and sane way. Better than dumpster diving would be to build that new and sane culture now and make it work before the resources become more scarce and too expensive.

Cascadia now, if you are ready for it 03.Nov.2004 10:29

here, now

I very much agree that there is no fix to the broken American system. I love the ideals and ideas of America, well, many of them, but the voting structure simply doesn't work to protect the people. The solution to this broken system that I support is the secession of areas that feel unrepresented. As the declaration of independence says, when our rights are threatened, it's our duty to provide new structures to secure our rights. Since I live here, my focus is Cascadia, though I'd encourage people in other areas to consider the same thing.

The real question for me, now, is not whether or not to try to form a new structure to secure our common well-being, but how to do it. Unfortunately, the usual routes toward political separation involve bloody revolutions. I don't like that idea much, which I guess just makes me sane. But is there another way? That's the question I haven't answered for myself, yet.

Head for Canada? 03.Nov.2004 10:31

Ex-Pat harcourt181@yahoo.com

Just after the illegal invasion of Iraq, I left the U.S. to relocate in Canada. I could not stomach a foreign policy based on greed and violence. I have watched over the past years scores of violations of Constitutional law and international law, each incident an impeachable offense. Apparently, to the majority of Americans these are of no concern.
In Canada there is much support for progressive views and policies. Canadians are fearful of how neocon policies will impact their government and sovereignty. If you have a mind to leave the U.S., I say do it!!!
You will find here a more compassionate society. My hope is that Canada will welcome you, and a sort of "brain drain" will occur in the U.S., the rational, humanistic, well-informed, literate, and educated will come, be welcomed, and will participate in mainstream efforts here to defend Canada's sovereignty.

You, who today are feeling so crushed and dispairing, have this option. You are the ones that have much to contribute to Canada's future. Canada will be wise to accept you new arrivals with open arms.

Before the elections, many in the U.S. were being quoted on the mass media, in answer to the question, what if Bush wins another term. Their reply, "I'm leaving the country." Such a decision is never made lightly. Consider your options -- stay to fight another day....or migrate to a country that endorses your beliefs in international good will, peace, humanitarianism, and tolerance in a multi-cultural society.

The one thing good about today, November 3rd, is waking up and realizing, "Hey, I'm so grateful! I'm in Canada!!!

Lessons from Ireland 03.Nov.2004 10:36

The Secretary

The IRA offers more lessons than shooting and bombing. We need to consider their history, but more, we need to create our own solutions with a more acceptable outcome than theirs (they have not yet "won" their war.) There must be a way to build a legal secession action based on US or global law. (Hey lawyers and law students, we need some help on this.) A secession action of substance will create a huge amount of attention across the globe. It might even open a means of addressing our greivances short of completion of the secession, but secession as a real goal must be maintained to the end. We must have the positive attention of rest of the world. To succeed they must know we have allies who would support and arm us, even if it does not come to that. What we must never do is engage in blind rage. This must be a sane and clearly defined action or else we are no better than they are with their fear based "war on terror" and Iraq.

Canada...far enough? 03.Nov.2004 10:51

JR

I have a friend up in B.C. who said that if Bush gets elected again, he would move to Australia or New Zealand. I told him Australia may be a gamble at this point. Try Ireland, or even London.

One thing's for sure: some people out there are going to find themselves in an Alberto Fujimori-style state of exile pretty soon. That is, not welcome back in their own country, after deciding to leave. It's never too soon to plan a trip somewhere, to visit but I certainly wouldn't want to live there.

Bravo, notquick, bravo! 03.Nov.2004 11:02

xyzzy

Simply beautiful.

Portland

Re: sustainability of dumpster diving 03.Nov.2004 11:04

Bear

Secretary, I agree that dumpster diving might not be sustainable in a truly ecologically minded society, as waste would then be drastically reduced. However, dumpster diving works very well today. It's a method of recycling that contributes to self-support and mutual aid outside mainstream society as it now stands. It's an example of using what we have, where we are, right now. Plus, take my word for it, it's FUN!

Things like growing our own vegetables, canning, breadmaking, rainwater collection, use of solar energy, bicycling, biodiesel, etc., will continue to be sustainable in the future.

This just makes me sad. 03.Nov.2004 11:28

Exile

It's not just that he'll be around for another four years, it's that he got any votes at all, I didn't know that there were so many ignorant/bigoted/billionaire/fundimentalist Christian people out there. I don't want to admit that I'm a citizen of this country. Not just because of the Current administration, but because so many people kept them in power. I'm just horribly sad. I can see the Wal-marts coming, and I can see Oregon leaving. They succeeded in mobilizing the Church vote, and we are all going to pay, even measure 36 waltzed on through, placing discrimination in the Oregon Constitution. We need to be that organized, in order to make Oregon the "Ecotopia" that it could be. We need to take action in the one way that they can understand, Money. Take the money away from the multi-national companies, Choose local products only, Shopping at places like Wal-Mart is treasonous, and should be punished.

If you are serious, turn your back on them, deny them revenue, and they will have no choice but leave. make doing business to costly for them here. They don't call this Little Beruit for nothing. If one of your friends or family breaks the financial blockade, turn your back on them as well. It's the only way to save this place. Perhaps if we give them enough of a headache, and they can't make money here, they won't want us in the union.

This is all just sad, terribly sad


Yes 03.Nov.2004 11:37

Portlander Portandvegan@yahoo.com

This idea has actually been tossed around a bit for several years. Idea being that Oregon and Washingtn secede from the US and form a country called Cascadia. Several years ago the guy in charge of it basically vanished.
About a year or two ago some efforts were being made to form a party "Cascadian Natinal Party" by collecting signatures at some rallies.

See  http://www.angelfire.com/wa3/cascadia/index2.html for more info. Unfortunately, the page hasn't been updated in a while.

yeeehaw! 03.Nov.2004 11:53

hopeful jeffersonian

listen - i think it's great that there's some talk about secession. too bad cali elected the governator - we'd probably have to have an appointed dictatorship there... also, we'd have to avoid having our asses vaporized by bunker busters and predator drones. any wrestlers out there? perhaps rummy would concede to give us portland if we could persuade him to throw down like he did in his younger days...

for real though, bush and many of his cohorts are criminals. that's no secret to 50,000,000 of us. apparently the other half is convinced that jesus forgives all - including a lack of a brain.

think. 03.Nov.2004 13:31

.

you really want to secede with the bunch of fuckheads from your bioregion who voted yes on 36 and 37?

wow, some change of mood, votes weren't real 03.Nov.2004 13:52

.

I don't know who is dumber. Those who actually voted for such things, or those who's only capacity is to treat these votes as if they were not rigged! Stop debating the vote totals as anything except unverifiable lies. You buy into it to complain even! Sheesh!

it's been in the works for a while, this secession thing... 03.Nov.2004 15:21

re: case of Silveira vs. Lockyer

Divided, we vote for the false dichotomy of the rigged Bones Brothers "elections" and lose every time, "left wing" AND "right wing." This is not suprising, and it's been going on for a long time, this mass brainwash of our populations into a closed binary system of political thought.

Together, we stand at a numerical majority over those who wish to live under Tsarism, here in Cascadia, Jefferson, or whatever you want to call it. Think about it.

 http://www.gunsanddope.com

seceding 03.Nov.2004 15:38

notquick

look, wedont have a choice of whether we live amongst a buch of assholes who hate as a first resort. thats just the reality of our situation, and not a bizare or unexpected reality in a nation with a history as ours and a culture where information is dominated by a right spin. IMC needs to start having printable formats and be printed out and distributed. We need to develop a place in the eyes of the Casual Information Gatherers, those who do not seek out news like all of us who dial in indymedia. these CIGers need to start seeing alternative points of view, casully. its a sucky strategy, but it reflects whats around.

Dumpster dive to free time to build real alternatives. farm the cities, develop commnity supported healthcare, and do what IMC was made to help us do: fin nonmainstream stories, PRINT THEM OUT and DISTRIBUTE. just one person distributing a paper copy of an IMC story to 100 people is an incredible boost in IMCs accessibility.

im off to the streets! now

check out my post (#6) on the _The Breakaway Repubic of Portlandia_ for more on what i think we need to do in addition to direct action in the forests, the clercks offices, etc Also rooftoporchards has a great point: we need to occupy local politics. deluge the city council with good ideas from large to small. the small ones will serve over time to show how incapable autoritarian executives are of best serving the diverse needs of unique individuals in the communities. Here in corvallis there is a $94 fine for riding your bike without a light. were submitting to the city council that it adopt a $30 fine and police carry around a box full of lights in their trunk and give them out with the $30 ticket. im sure you all can work out the pros and cons of this.
Particpate in local politics, while you build grardens, commuity, and bike culture everywhere, while you give support and participate in direct actions.

peace hope do something real!

An Option 03.Nov.2004 16:23

Bart

 http://www.moveoutusa.org

MoveOutUSA.org is a web portal for people who are considering leaving the USA if George W. Bush wins the 2004 presidential election.

On Oregon as Cascadia 03.Nov.2004 17:45

maybe you forgot

But the rest of the state is not ready to become Cascadia. There is a serious split between urban and rural voters. Out in the edges away from Portland, you have have the people who voted for Measure 36, the ones who suported Bush, and Goli Ameri. These are not people ready to become part of an ecotopoian government. We have lots of work to do.

Put a seccession title on the next ballot! 06.Nov.2004 17:16

nutcase mylonsheath@yahoo.com

If enough people are serious, let's organize and get the signatures and put Oregon seccession on the next ballot for a vote. Of course it won't pass, but will serve as a useful discussion point and maybe the start of an historic inevitability, given enough time. If the current kleptocracy stays on course and makes things continually worse, opting out might not seem as radical as it does now.

Re: Put a seccession title on the next ballot! 08.Nov.2004 03:19

Alexandros of Cascadia

well that is something to either bring up or start at the meeting in Portland on Saturday, November 13th at 5:30PM at Pioneer Courhouse Square.


Please, leave! 09.Nov.2004 07:47

Jason, proud North Carolinian.

I honestly wish each and every one of you would leave this country. You want the benefits but not the duties that go along with being the greatest country in the world. You want your own country? Go for it. But good luck because you would have to fight for it, and I highly doubt you bunch of left-wing pacifists are up for it. You forget in your own state Bush won 47.5 percent of the vote. You are the minority, save the country the trouble of more divisiveness and just move to Canada or Europe. Im sure they would welcome you with open arms.

Stop joking about secession and do it. 24.Nov.2004 08:36

David Perry Davis, Esq.

Whenever government becomes destructive of these ends (life, liberty, pursuit of happiness), it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute a new government. Declaration of Independence of the American Colonies, 1776

Every major political change starts with people saying "wouldn't it be great it...." while believing it couldn't possilby happen. Stop believing it can't happen and start thinking about it seriously and logically.
The U.S. has been at least two seperate nations for many years. On the one hand, a near majority of us are educated thinkers who see the potential of a just and decent society and world. On the other, small minded, militaristic fake Christians. Seceding some states and forming a new union -- red states (USA) & blue (Union of North American States?) -- just recognizes the existing political situation and lets each one pursue its utopian ideal.
The red states can form whatever kind of society they like -- prayer in schools, a pistol in every pot, get rid of any division between church and state, etc. And blue staters can begin to form a just society with a reasonable standard of living for ALL - healthcare for all, affordable education, social justice. Clinton's 8 years of peace and prosperity can be 800 years of peace and prosperity; Red can have all the wars it wants and have the rich continue to suck the poor's blood -- whatever. In sum, George Bush is not my president and never will be.

Maybe Bush's alleged re-election (check out  http://www.blackboxvoting.org) has enough of us ready to think about seriously forming a new union. For others, it may take more (enough war dead, the gulf between have and have-not's increasing, etc etc), but if this idea is to grow it must start with some of us taking seriously enough to begin to build support and a political infrastructue that can be built upon. BLAZE THE TRAIL AND OTHERS *WILL* FOLLOW.

There's already a couple of serious websites up discussing the issue seriously. I'm an attorney and am preparing a suit to clarify that neither federal law nor the the US Constitution makes secession illegal. LET'S DO IT.

 http://www.secession.net/