portland independent media center  
images audio video
newswire article reposts united states

alternative media | government | imperialism & war selection 2004

Eminem, Anti-Hero

With a new video proudly declaring war on Bush, Eminem steps into the political fray, perhaps the least likely - and most effective - generational leader imaginable.
Bringing the War Home, We Fight Now or Die!
Bringing the War Home, We Fight Now or Die!
LINK TO VIDEO:
 http://www.gnn.tv/content/eminem_mosh.html

There was merely a ripple in the cultural zeitgeist when Bruce Springsteen put aside his genial nonpartisan everyman stance and headlined the Vote for Change concerts, benefiting America Coming Together (ACT), and ultimately, John Kerry. No one blinked when Ani diFranco set off on her own tour, boldly titled Vote Dammit. Same with Moby, who has worn his politics on his sleeve from day one. And no eyebrows were raised when P. Diddy, in typical Diddy style, came out big and loud with his Vote or Die campaign - which as usual seemed to be more about Diddy than anything else.

But Eminem - the man who George Bush once called "the most dangerous threat to American children since polio" - could be the true October surprise.

Eminem is one of the least likely artists to come out with an overtly political message and a rallying call to youth, yet eight days before the election Eminem released "Mosh," the second single from his forthcoming album "Encore," scheduled for release on Nov. 6. Solidly established as an anti-hero, reveling in the fact that his words and actions - pulling a gun on his ex-wife's boyfriend, rapping about "fags" and then making nice with Elton John or mooning fans at the MTV Video Music Awards - were not to be followed, analyzed, or mimicked, Eminem seemed content to remain the angry young man with a wicked flow, biting lyrics and astronomical record sales.

Instead, he releases a rousing call to arms for the hip hop generation to take back the government that seeks to represent them. He even proclaims himself their leader. Surprise indeed.

With "Mosh," Eminem - the most polarizing musician of our times - takes on the most polarizing election of our times.

In the video, Eminem leads a mob fired up and politicized by four years of outrage and anger at the Bush administration. Clad in black hoodies, fists raised, the angry young men and women descend on a state building ... to vote.

Chunky black-and-white illustrated figures on a moody, sepia-toned landscape play out the frustration and angst of a generation. One young Iraq veteran returns home, to be met by his wife and children and a notice of reassignment; "Fuck Bush" is the accompanying lyric he spits out. Then he dons a black hoodie and joins the mob. A single mother comes home, groceries in hand, and opens an eviction notice while news of a tax cut for the rich plays on the television ... she dons a black hoodie and joins the mob.

Eminem leads the crowd, providing "spark" to the chorus:

"Come along follow me as I lead through the darkness
As I provide just enough spark that we need to proceed
Carry on, give me hope, give me strength
Come with me and I won't steer you wrong
Put your faith and your trust as I guide us through the fog
To the light at the end of the tunnel
We gonna fight, we gonna charge, we gonna stomp, we gonna march
Through the swamp, we gonna mosh through the marsh
Take us right through the doors (c'mon)"

The video was produced, directed and edited by Ian Inaba of the Guerilla News Network, who didn't necessarily have Eminem in mind when he came up with the concept. He concurs that the song and the video have altered the left's perception of one of its favorite whipping boys: "People who have been critical are now saying positive things about him," Inaba tells AlterNet. "I think he's matured a lot as an artist and he's a very hard working and intelligent artist. And I think this song and his effort is showing people that."

This sea change in public perception occurred in less than five days. The video was finished on Monday, Oct. 25, and posted at gnn.tv on the same day. After rumors that MTV would refuse to air it, the video appeared on Total Request Live on Tuesday; it's currently No. 1 on the charts.

So Inaba and Eminem were a fortuitous pairing. The video was first a concept in search of a song, but when Inaba, who had worked with Eminem on his last album, heard the song, he felt it was the perfect fit. "I wanted to do a voting video," he says. "[We were] trying to come out with it right before the election - hopefully a little earlier than we ultimately did." Inaba shopped it around to record labels, landing at Interscope, looking to see who among the label's artists would be releasing an album near the election. "The video's content was pretty well established in my head when I went to his management so we were both kind of surprised when I heard the song. You know it couldn't have been a better song," says Inaba.

"Mosh" couldn't have fit better with the concept, and Inaba considers Eminem's nation of listeners a powerful bloc who otherwise wouldn't have heard the message: "We heard the song, we knew it was gonna have the reach, you know we could have gone with other artists, but he's got reach into swing states, into middle America, and that's, you know, a powerful thing." Think of it as the Michael Moore effect on an Xbox.

Indeed, in a nation where undecided-voter frenzy has reached a fever pitch, the hip hop generation has been a favorite target. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, there are 26.7 million Americans between the ages of 18 and 24, and only 8.6 million of them - about 32 percent - voted in the 2000 presidential elections, meaning two of every three did not vote.

Reactions to the video have been dramatic. Moby, whose history with Eminem is stained with vitriol, has been effusive: "Wow, you know that Eminem and I have had our differences in the past, but this video is the best thing that I've seen all year. It's an amazing song and an even more amazing video. Please go watch." The "differences" that Moby blithely refers to include a call-out in Eminem's 2002 release "Without Me": "You 36-year-old boy fag, blow me/ You don't know me, you're too old, let go/ It's over, nobody listens to techno."

Inaba thinks the response has been amazing - and if the goal is getting out the vote, he believes that the video is a success: "We've gotten a lot of responses on message boards, on blog sites, things like that; kids saying, 'I wasn't gonna vote and I saw this video and it's really transformative and I'm now gonna go out and vote.'"

Naturally, the hip hop generation is watching, and talking. On MTV.com's "You Tell Us" feature, reactions are strong. Kyle, a 22-year-old from Ithaca, N.Y. says: "Not since Chuck D has a hip hop artist spoken so eloquently of the power in numbers. If we stand up as a bloc and vote, both the president and the senator will have no choice but to listen."

Nineteen-year-old Kelley from Apple Valley, Minn. has a different take: "I am completely appalled by Eminem's 'Mosh' video. He may have his own opinions about our president, but there should be no reason that he has to come out with this Bush-bashing video a week before the election. I am a huge Eminem fan, but this is extremely upsetting. I am also afraid that people will watch this video and be corrupted by what he is portraying, and that is a false image of President Bush."

Eminem, not surprisingly, disagrees. In an advance report of a poorly timed interview in Rolling Stone (appearing in the Nov. 5 issue), he is quoted as saying:

"[Bush] has been painted to be this hero, and he's got our troops over there dying for no reason ... I think he started a mess ... He jumped the gun, and he fucked up so bad he doesn't know what to do right now ... We got young people over there dyin', kids in their teens, early 20s that should have futures ahead of them. And for what? It seems like a Vietnam 2. bin Laden attacked us, and we attacked Saddam. Explain why that is. Give us some answers."

According to the article, Eminem won't endorse a candidate: "'Whatever my decision is, I would like to see Bush out of office,' Eminem says. 'I don't wanna see my little brother get drafted - he just turned eighteen. People think their votes don't count, but people need to get out and vote. Every motherfuckin' vote counts.'"

If the video augurs anything, those votes will be legion. Eminem ends the song as a line of voters stretches out into the distance:

"As we set aside our differences
And assemble our own army
To disarm this weapon of mass destruction
That we call our president, for the present
And mosh for the future of our next generation
To speak and be heard
Mr. President, Mr. Senator
Do you guys hear us?"

Well, do you?

address: address: http://www.alternet.org/election04/20345/

It's Not That Suprising 29.Oct.2004 12:01

Mistletoe Angel

Eminem has released several political cuts before. "White America" off "The Eminem Show" is his first notable example, and then the un-released "We As Americans" featured a controversial lyric that even made news headlines assuming Eminem wanted to harm Bush:

"Fuck money
I don't rap for dead presidents
I'd rather see the president dead
It's never been said
But I said precedents in the standards
And they can't stand it"

Anyway, I am proud of Eminem for standing up and speaking his mind. He still always releases the worst, mos mediocre first singles from records, but he has talent and he has his mind screwed on the right way politically.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

...ad nauseum 29.Oct.2004 12:08

citizen cynik

...AH-hahahahahahahaha! a 'content provider' extolling the masses to stay in the pen! Oooooh, i feel so tingly and free.

Whoop-De-Doo-Doo 29.Oct.2004 12:25

alsis38 alsis35@yahoo.com

"...but he has talent and he has his mind screwed on the right way politically..."

Yes, because every healthy political movement needs more misogyny disguised as "art." [snicker] Why, every right-thinking liberal guy would want his daughter, sister, mother, aunt, etc. to date a guy like Eminem. Yeah, I'd sure feel safe and unthreatened in a political movement that blasts Em's psycho tripe from every speaker.

Whatever, Noah. Whatever.

rockin 29.Oct.2004 13:52

kudos

The Bush administration has been using the war against terror as a method to prevent negative comments about the administration.

That is a disgrace, in a modern era.

The Bush administration's idea of free speech is, it is fine, until the truth is spoken.

Then his right-wing federal buddies step in.

Do you remember the laws in George Orwell's, Animal Farm?

"All animals are born equal, only some are more equal than others."

Reminds me of the fact that a Presidental candidate [Nader] was not allowed to join a television debate.

A presidental candidate, not invited to a Presidental debate?

America...keep your concept of 'dicto-hypocritical-democracy'.

All those soldiers, dying for a lie....


sick.

homophobeminem 29.Oct.2004 14:06

theresa mitchell

As a person falling under Eminem's category of "fag lez or trans-a-vest," i.e. one who may legitimately be targeted for a "dagger to the head," I am (a) pleased to find he has found a new, less disenfranchised target and (b) acutely conscious of the fact that he never rescinded nor apologized for his genocidal comments.

teresa is right 29.Oct.2004 14:25

h

he has produced one of the more interesting music videos this year... it doesnt change the fact that he is a bigot. fuck him.

don't agree 29.Oct.2004 14:37

kudos

Actually, teresa, if you listen to the song, he says it doesn't matter if you are.

It is just not his 'cup of tea'.

If you want to know the REAL eminem, listen to 'Stan'.

Not his full on, commercial material, that is just for quick sales.

He actually doesn't like it, because of the influence it has on his daughter's life.

uh...the video sucks 29.Oct.2004 16:36

watchedit

Has anyone watched the video? It looks totally cool, until the fucking black bloc takes off their hoodies, revealing neckties, and THEY REGISTER TO VOTE. Talk about co-opting the radical approach of the blac bloc (typically made up of anarchists) for a bunch of b.s. BARF!

Nobody's stopping you from voting. You don't have to put on a hoody and fight the cops to fucking vote. People who take those sorts of actions are doing it so they can vote.

Let's review (just for example) one statement released after Seattle WTO (look for pro-voting rhetoric here, I didn't see any):

ACME Collective
December 4, 1999 10:48 a.m.

ACME COLLECTIVE COMMUNIQUÉ
Disclaimer: these observations and analyses represent only those of the ACME Collective and should not be construed to be representative of the rest of the black bloc on N30 or anyone else who engaged in riot or property destruction that day.

N30 Black Bloc Communiqué
by ACME Collective 10:48am Sat Dec 4 '99
A communiqué from one section of the black bloc of N30 in Seattle


On November 30, several groups of individuals in black bloc attacked various corporate targets in downtown Seattle. Among them were (to name just a few):

Fidelity Investment (major investor in Occidental Petroleum, the bane of the U'wa tribe in Columbia), Bank of America, US Bancorp, Key Bank and Washington Mutual Bank (financial institutions key in the expansion of corporate repression), Old Navy, Banana Republic and the GAP (as Fisher family businesses, rapers of Northwest forest lands and sweatshop laborers), NikeTown and Levi's (whose overpriced products are made in sweatshops), McDonald's (slave-wage fast-food peddlers responsible for destruction of tropical rainforests for grazing land and slaughter of animals), Starbucks (peddlers of an addictive substance whose products are harvested at below-poverty wages by farmers who are forced to destroy their own forests in the process), Warner Bros. (media monopolists), Planet Hollywood (for being Planet Hollywood)

This activity lasted for over 5 hours and involved the breaking of storefront windows and doors and defacing of facades. Slingshots, newspaper boxes, sledge hammers, mallets, crowbars and nail-pullers were used to strategically destroy corporate property and gain access (one of the three targeted Starbucks and Niketown were looted). Eggs filled with glass etching solution, paint-balls and spray-paint were also used.

The black bloc was a loosely organized cluster of affinity groups and individuals who roamed around downtown, pulled this way by a vulnerable and significant storefront and that way by the sight of a police formation. Unlike the vast majority of activists who were pepper-sprayed, tear-gassed and shot at with rubber bullets on several occasions, most of our section of the black bloc escaped serious injury by remaining constantly in motion and avoiding engagement with the police. We buddied up, kept tight and watched each others' backs. Those attacked by federal thugs were un-arrested by quick-thinking and organized members of the black bloc. The sense of solidarity was awe-inspiring.

THE PEACE POLICE

Unfortunately, the presence and persistence of "peace police" was quite disturbing. On at least 6 separate occasions, so-called "non-violent" activists physically attacked individuals who targeted corporate property. Some even went so far as to stand in front of the Niketown super store and tackle and shove the black bloc away. Indeed, such self-described "peace-keepers" posed a much greater threat to individuals in the black bloc than the notoriously violent uniformed "peace-keepers" sanctioned by the state (undercover officers have even used the cover of the activist peace-keepers to ambush those who engage in corporate property destruction).

RESPONSE TO THE BLACK BLOC

Response to the black bloc has highlighted some of the contradictions and internal oppressions of the "nonviolent activist" community. Aside from the obvious hypocrisy of those who engaged in violence against black-clad and masked people (many of whom were harassed despite the fact that they never engaged in property destruction), there is the racism of privileged activists who can afford to ignore the violence perpetrated against the bulk of society and the natural world in the name of private property rights. Window-smashing has engaged and inspired many of the most oppressed members of Seattle's community more than any giant puppets or sea turtle costumes ever could (not to disparage the effectiveness of those tools in other communities).

TEN MYTHS ABOUT THE BLACK BLOC

Here's a little something to dispel the myths that have been circulating about the N30 black bloc:

1. "They are all a bunch of Eugene anarchists." While a few may be anarchists from Eugene, we hail from all over the United States, including Seattle. In any case, most of us are familiar with local issues in Seattle (for instance, the recent occupation of downtown by some of the most nefarious of multinational retailers).

2. "They are all followers of John Zerzan." A lot of rumors have been circulating that we are followers of John Zerzan, an anarcho-primitivist author from Eugene who advocates property destruction. While some of us may appreciate his writings and analyses, he is in no sense our leader, directly, indirectly, philisophocally or otherwize.

3. "The mass public squat is the headquarters of the anarchists who destroyed property on November 30th." In reality, most of the people in the "Autonomous Zone" squat are residents of Seattle who have spent most of their time since its opening on the 28th in the squat. While they may know of one-another, the two groups are not co-extensive and in no case could the squat be considered the headquarters of people who destroyed property.

4. "They escalated situations on the 30th, leading to the tear-gassing of passive, non-violent protesters." To answer this, we need only note that tear-gassing, pepper-spraying and the shooting of rubber bullets all began before the black blocs (as far as we know) started engaging in property destruction. In addition, we must resist the tendency to establish a causal relationship between police repression and protest in any form, whether it involved property destruction or not. The police are charged with protecting the interests of the wealthy few and the blame for the violence cannot be placed upon those who protest those interests.

5. Conversely: "They acted in response to the police repression." While this might be a more positive representation of the black bloc, it is nevertheless false. We refuse to be misconstrued as a purely reactionary force. While the logic of the black bloc may not make sense to some, it is in any case a pro-active logic.

6. "They are a bunch of angry adolescent boys." Aside from the fact that it belies a disturbing ageism and sexism, it is false. Property destruction is not merely macho rabble-rousing or testosterone-laden angst release. Nor is it displaced and reactionary anger. It is strategically and specifically targeted direct action against corporate interests.

7. "They just want to fight." This is pretty absurd, and it conveniently ignores the eagerness of "peace police" to fight us. Of all the groups engaging in direct action, the black bloc was perhaps the least interested in engaging the authorities and we certainly had no interest in fighting with other anti-WTO activists (despite some rather strong disagreements over tactics).

8. "They are a chaotic, disorganized and opportunistic mob." While many of us could surely spend days arguing over what "chaotic" means, we were certainly not disorganized. The organization may have been fluid and dynamic, but it was tight. As for the charge of opportunism, it would be hard to imagine who of the thousands in attendance didn't take advantage of the opportunity created in Seattle to advance their agenda. The question becomes, then, whether or not we helped create that opportunity and most of us certainly did (which leads us to the next myth):

9. "They don't know the issues" or "they aren't activists who've been working on this." While we may not be professional activists, we've all been working on this convergence in Seattle for months. Some of us did work in our home-towns and others came to Seattle months in advance to work on it. To be sure, we were responsible for many hundreds of people who came out on the streets on the 30th, only a very small minority of which had anything to do with the black bloc. Most of us have been studying the effects of the global economy, genetic engineering, resource extraction, transportation, labor practices, elimination of indigenous autonomy, animal rights and human rights and we've been doing activism on these issues for many years. We are neither ill-informed nor unexperienced.

10. "Masked anarchists are anti-democratic and secretive because they hide their identities." Let's face it (with or without a mask)--we aren't living in a democracy right now. If this week has not made it plain enough, let us remind you--we are living in a police state. People tell us that if we really think that we're right, we wouldn't be hiding behind masks. "The truth will prevail" is the assertion. While this is a fine and noble goal, it does not jive with the present reality. Those who pose the greatest threat to the interests of Capital and State will be persecuted. Some pacifists would have us accept this persecution gleefully. Others would tell us that it is a worthy sacrifice. We are not so morose. Nor do we feel we have the privilege to accept persecution as a sacrifice: persecution to us is a daily inevitability and we treasure our few freedoms. To accept incarceration as a form of flattery betrays a large amount of "first world" privilege. We feel that an attack on private property is necessary if we are to rebuild a world which is useful, healthful and joyful for everyone. And this despite the fact that hypertrophied private property rights in this country translate into felony charges for any property destruction over $250.

MOTIVATIONS OF THE BLACK BLOC

The primary purpose of this communique is to diffuse some of the aura of mystery that surrounds the black bloc and make some of its motivations more transparent, since our masks cannot be.

ON THE VIOLENCE OF PROPERTY

We contend that property destruction is not a violent activity unless it destroys lives or causes pain in the process. By this definition, private property--especially corporate private property--is itself infinitely more violent than any action taken against it. Private property should be distinguished from personal property. The latter is based upon use while the former is based upon trade. The premise of personal property is that each of us has what s/he needs. The premise of private property is that each of us has something that someone else needs or wants. In a society based on private property rights, those who are able to accrue more of what others need or want have greater power. By extension, they wield greater control over what others perceive as needs and desires, usually in the interest of increasing profit to themselves. Advocates of "free trade" would like to see this process to its logical conclusion: a network of a few industry monopolists with ultimate control over the lives of the everyone else. Advocates of "fair trade" would like to see this process mitigated by government regulations meant to superficially impose basic humanitarian standards. As anarchists, we despise both positions. Private property--and capitalism, by extension--is intrinsicly violent and repressive and cannot be reformed or mitigated. Whether the power of everyone is concentrated into the hands of a few corporate heads or diverted into a regulatory apparatus charged with mitigating the disasters of the latter, no one can be as free or as powerful as they could be in a non-hierarchical society. When we smash a window, we aim to destroy the thin veneer of legitimacy that surrounds private property rights. At the same time, we exorcize that set of violent and destructive social relationships which has been imbued in almost everything around us. By "destroying" private property, we convert its limited exchange value into an expanded use value. A storefront window becomes a vent to let some fresh air into the oppressive atmosphere of a retail outlet (at least until the police decide to tear-gas a nearby road blockade). A newspaper box becomes a tool for creating such vents or a small blockade for the reclamation of public space or an object to improve one's vantage point by standing on it. A dumpster becomes an obstruction to a phalanx of rioting cops and a source of heat and light. A building facade becomes a message board to record brainstorm ideas for a better world. After N30, many people will never see a shop window or a hammer the same way again. The potential uses of an entire cityscape have increased a thousand-fold. The number of broken windows pales in comparison to the number broken spells--spells cast by a corporate hegemony to lull us into forgetfulness of all the violence committed in the name of private property rights and of all the potential of a society without them. Broken windows can be boarded up (with yet more waste of our forests) and eventually replaced, but the shattering of assumptions will hopefully persist for some time to come.

Against Capital and State,
the ACME Collective
"Peasant Revolt!"

dont bash em based on his past 29.Oct.2004 17:03

maks

remember em's purpose is to piss off as many folks as possible...and if you're gonna call him a misogynist, then back that up with plenty of evidence, keeping in mind that he says most of his stuff in jest. and yes, one should be able to make fun of almost everything, if not everything. take a look at how he's changed... he says himself that he realized that he has the chance to raise his daughter in an unfuckedup way, unlike his childhood...thus he quit using drugs for example.

and em (and marilyn manson, among others) hate the tipper gore-type censorship-type people. I like manson myself...what he was really getting bashed for by christian ministries was saying that the religious folk have made this life into the same hell they warn of.

and how come one's free to hate men, but not women? there's an inequality. and no, i have nothing to do with the patriarchy. i was just born with a wang.

Thank you, Theresa! 29.Oct.2004 17:15

Migratory Bird

Thank you for speaking up! It is always good to see people defend themselves. I think everyone is so busy defending Eminem that they can't listen to others defend themselves. It takes courage to speak up for yourself and when people trample it, well, it hurts. But I, as well as other people, heard you. We appreciate your voice in this forum becuase it is the most authenticated. It is speaks genuinely to why people are very hurt by him and don't want to include him in our forums.

most authenticated? 29.Oct.2004 18:27

?

what the heck does that mean?

dictionary 29.Oct.2004 19:17

Migratory Bird

authenticated

Authenticate \Au*then"ti*cate\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. Authenticated; p. pr. & vb. n. Authenticating (?).] [Cf. LL. authenticare.] 1. To render authentic; to give authority to, by the proof, attestation, or formalities required by law, or sufficient to entitle to credit.

The king serves only as a notary to authenticate the choice of judges. --Burke.

2. To prove authentic; to determine as real and true; as, to authenticate a portrait. --Walpole.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

finally... 29.Oct.2004 19:44

old fart

I don't know the average of indymedia fans, but I suspect you are much younger than I. During the antiwar movement of the 60's and 70's, there were dozens of artist writing and performing songs protesting the War in Vietnam. The protest songs played freely on the air waves and the music became the heart and soul of a generation. We were fed up with seeing our brothers being used as cannon fodder and coming home in black bags. Everything came to a head at Kent State, when four college students were gunned down in cold blood by US troops at a peaceful anti war demonstration. In my opinion, that was the beginning of the end of the war. Amereicans had finally had enough of it. Up until this video, the now government controlled media has been successful in silencing songs of dissent. Look at what happened to the Dixie Chics who merely muttrered a word against the president. The majority of todays artist have simply have no balls. The Springstein concerts are all fine and dandy, but really have zero effect on the youth of our nation.

Current US foreign policy will not change until the youth of America raise up in great numbers to oppose it. Eminem's "Mosh" is the first significant piece of music to openly spit in the face of US foreign policy in thirty years. It may just be the catylist that can jump start our young people to become seriously politically involved and make a help make a change in the right direction. Old farts like me are counting on you guys!

nicely done, now... 29.Oct.2004 22:38

?

I asked what was meant by "most authenticated"

and you gave me a definition for authenticate.

Very nice, but, I knew what authenticate means

Thanks

now, what (exactly) did you mean by "most authenticated"

thanks again

to ? . 30.Oct.2004 00:11

Migratory Bird

ahh silly me, I didn't finish the sentence did I? I meant to add the word voice. Please reread the paragraph and add the word voice. Thanks for catching that oversite. Sometimes I write to fast. The way you phrased your question I really thought you needed the meaning to it, not that I hadn't finished my sentence.

Oh, Get A Clue, Maks 30.Oct.2004 10:21

alsis38 alsis35@yahoo.com

Hey, I'm criticizing Eminem based on things he's actually done and said. Haven't "joked" about how he should meet up with bodily harm, either. I've already been far fairer with him in that regard than he's been with me. We all are judged by our past actions, so is he. Let God and Kerry forgive him. :p I don't feel like it.

"remember em's purpose is to piss off as many folks as possible..."

Oh, please. Misogyny in this culture is as routine as strained carrots and about as interesting. You can find it anywhere you care to look, including among the church-loving crowd that sets itself up as Eminem's diametric opposition. If he really wanted to piss off people, there are far more novel and thought-provoking routes he could have taken. Besides, I thought his actual purpose was to make as much money as possible in the shortest amount of time, and make all women feel like shit because he's angry at his Mom. Remember, everything's Mom's fault, and every woman should have to pay because poow widdle Eminem is unhappy with Mom. What-the-fuck-ever.

"...and if you're gonna call him a misogynist, then back that up with plenty of evidence, keeping in mind that he says most of his stuff in jest..."

Oh, grow up. Woman-hating saturates his work. It's the woman-hating that got him the most pre-digested, manufactured, calculated "controversy" and the big bucks that go with it. And, oh yes, it's all in jest. Whatever. Can you imagine a female counterpart of Eminem writing endless raps about beating, raping, mutilating and murdering her father and other men and becoming a millionaire hailed by the hipper-than-thou "liberal" culture vultures ? It'd never happen. Men couldn't stand it. They'd declare her a monster, mentally ill, and a freak. No way would they ever accept that it's "all in jest." Neither would you, I'll wager.

"...and yes, one should be able to make fun of almost everything, if not everything..."

That's nice. First of all, women are not "things," though in Eminem's fantasies we are treated as such. Second, the right to criticize everything cuts both ways. If an entertainer cultivates a certain image to lure a certain crowd, that same image may repel and anger others, and those others are under no obligation to pretend that something smells like roses if we think it actually smells like shit.

"...take a look at how he's changed... he says himself that he realized that he has the chance to raise his daughter in an unfuckedup way, unlike his childhood...thus he quit using drugs for example..."

He should publically repudiate the shitty stuff he's said about women in the past then. He should call for men to cease verbal and physical violence against women. It's not just his daughter that has to live in the culture of misogyny he feeds on and is in turn fed by. It would be nice if he cared as much about everyone's daughters as he cares about his own.

"...and em (and marilyn manson, among others) hate the tipper gore-type censorship-type people. I like manson myself...what he was really getting bashed for by christian ministries was saying that the religious folk have made this life into the same hell they warn of..."

As far as I'm concerned, Manson comes across as another no-talent woman-hater whose "rebellion" is no more interesting or less predictable than Eminem's. He ripped off Alice Cooper as surely as Eminem ripped of Dre', et al and got crowned a genius by idiots for it. Hell, guys like that and the Doug Wildmon's and Tipper Gores of the world NEED each other. All of them hunger for attention, for public adoration, and above all, for $$$$$. To get the public's attention, they quite knowingly use each other and mass media to create giant spectacles to keep the public distracted from what really matters. As far as I'm concerned, if both sides disappeared off the face of the planet tomorrow, the world could only improve. Misogyny is something Eminem and the big churchmen actually have in common. They're both obsessed with fantasies of judging women as either virgins or whores and authoritatively meting out to women a sadistic and merciless punishment. They deserve each other, but women don't deserve either.

"...and how come one's free to hate men, but not women?..."

Oh, please. That's not the point and you know it. Hate whomever you want, but the right to hate does not include the right to be "free" of being criticized and loudly disliked by those whom you lodge hate speech against. I'm under no obligation to keep quiet and pretend that I like shit when I don't.

"...there's an inequality..."

[Snicker] Yeah, and that's the worst you can imagine. Whatever. You've got a damn easy life then, Mister.

"...and no, i have nothing to do with the patriarchy. i was just born with a wang..."

You are part of the patriarchy and you benefit from it regardless. Unless you intend to live life passing yourself off as a woman. You access patriarchal privilege whether you admit it or not, even if you personally voice no overt hostility toward women, instead letting a surrogate like Eminem say things you privately agree with or find "funny" but know better than to say out loud. I have White skin, that means I access White privilege unless I could or would somehow pass myself off as a Black person. I can speak out against privilege, but I cannot avoid being seen as a privileged person and reaping at least some benefits of privilege. Because for me to have rights in a racist system, someone else must suffer a lack of those same rights, for that is how the system has been set up.

You are no different in regards to sex and gender, Maks, though I'm sure denying that makes you feel better.

Whatever, alsis38, Whatever... 30.Oct.2004 13:24

Mistletoe Angel

I didn't come on here to talk about Eminem's past, and let me say regardless of the video, which i think is excellent and something the youth of America really need in a time when we just aren't seeing protest songs hit the airwaves like during Vietnam, I do disagree and denounce Eminem's behavior in the past, like with Moby and saying "I'd hit a man in glasses" or his anti-gay comments, etc.

I'm talking about the video and the song itself, alone. I think one should have the ability to analyze and discuss some song or video individually.

When Steve Earle, Zack de la Rocha and Authority Zero can't get their songs heard on the radio under this Clear Channel climate, it'll take someone with super celebrity status to break through. Eminem has done that, and that is to be respected.

Regardless of his past, which I do agree is unsettling in many aspects, it doesn't change my view of this song and this excellent video.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

A great video vs a great movement. 30.Oct.2004 14:39

Migratory Bird

There have been a lot of artists writing songs and speaking out. George Michael, Dixie Chicks, NOFX, Paris, and the list grows and grows. Just because some piece of shit no account rapper who hates women was able to get in good with one of our brethren and create a song that shows us wearing business suits and casting ballots does not mean that that piece of shit no account rapper created a music movement nor does it mean that we don't have one!!!!

Yes, I enjoyed the video. I also say that he should receive public revilement until he apologizes to the women for speaking so terribly of us. What he wants to be done to us is done to us and it is no laughing matter!!!

Now you men can choose to speak kindly of this fuckface or you can chose to show solidarity with the women! I have a good suspicion that you will speak more kindly about that multimillionaire asshole than you will about Theresa or alisis38 or me!

The fact of the matter is that one out of three of us probably had one of the horrible things, that he thinks is funny to joke about, happen to one of us!!!

But maybe one of you men did it and found it funny! Hell, why should I show solidarity with you??? Why, after your comments, should I not wonder this of you men?

But we women have stood by the movement- we have nursed the movement, bred the movement, and nurtured the movement- and we have never gone off to be alone with our own movement like we have threatened-
but if you want us to be apart of your movement you need to learn some goddamn solidarity!

Otherwise we will learn that we do have to be sexist because every fucking time we ask for you to back us up, you ponder how wonderful you all are and how it just might be funny to fucking rape, brutalize and tear us limb from limb. Seriously.

Like if some creep had been singing how great male rape was over and over. Ya know? Some of you men have suffered from being raped. And then he made a song about how Abu Gharib was bad and I said "How fucking great is that!" The guy was just joking about raping you before with a light stick ( oh that only happened in male rap songs singing about women- funny it happened in Abu Gharib) now he is saying that translators shouldn't get to do it. He never apologizes. He never says it's wrong. He just makes more money. More money. More money. More money. More money. And they co-opt every foul means of torture he described and use it over and over without having to say he was fucking sorry and WRONG!

To speak out against him is going to kill the movement?- fuck you! You are killing the movement. You are a feminist-male until the time comes that women speak up asking for solidarity. Then you accuse her of being anti male. You, who profess to understand us, until one of us cries out, "Stop you are hurting me!" Then you tell us that you were just joking. To stand up and show solidarity with you.

Yeah, enjoy your fucking video. Disenfranchise us further, marginalize us, watch as our pay goes down, abuse us and when we say anything about it accuse us of being male haters? After all, you don't know what male privilege is. You just happen to have penis. And you forgive him. Cause it was a great video. Well, enjoy it! You deserve it, your building a great movement!

i bet you hated "team america-world police" as well, alsis38 30.Oct.2004 17:27

maks

if you're looking for a good female conterpart to eminem then I suggest you check out Lady Saw...'stab up de meat' is a good starting point.

and i don't think he judges women as being virgins or whores... and I'm gonna go with primo levi's statement on judging...which is that one shouldn't judge anyone without first trying to understand whatever situation they're in. (he was in auschwitz, so he might know a thing or two about experiencing others' situations) Remember that em's mother was diagnosed with munchhausen's syndrome byproxy, which prety much means that she'd make him sick and go around to hospitals looking for attention.

So he doesnt have a radical critique of where his anger comes from. Does that mean you'd badmouth anyone who'd say bitch, faggot or whatever else you find objectionable instead of trying to give them a bit of a radical analysis? 'Cause you sound like a whiny self-righteous activist, which in case you don't know is the kind I hate. So would you alienate people like him because their language is less inoffensive than yours? 'Cause if so, then you're what's wrong with activism- the desire to be as inoffensive as possible, with sanitized language and behaviours and self-righteousness. As much as we have a duty to ensure that no more Hitlers emerge, it is also our duty to stop future Pol Pots.

I'm not saying I excuse his past actions. Just don't count him out based on them.

and manson has been pretty fucking radical at times...as i remember he's always been a supporter of indymedia, for example. Give a song like "great Big White World", "DOnt Like The Drugs" or "Cyclops" a spin and see if you dont think there's a radical streak in him. He just brings his own take to the ring.

And im not saying that consumerism doesnt swallow up anything it can and turn that into a money-making machine. I'll say that 99.5% of what comes out of it is trash. Hell, I'd probably even be more critical of it than most folks... how 'bout that Fahrenheit 9/11? Nice bit of escapism, no? But it gave folks something to carry out with 'em.

And Kurt Cobain was a situationist-type, interestingly enough. Was I the only one who saw that "Smells Like Teen Spirit" was a broadside to MTV and the music industry?
"here we are, now entertain us"... Looking back on stuff like that, I just cant see how they got away with something like that. But ultimately I'd rather hack into a radio or tv station then sit around watching em and saying "ooh, how radical".

And yeah, I'm part of the patriarchy and benefit from it. But that doesnt mean I should go around with a guilt-complex. If I were trying to establish a totalitarian state, a fucking good way to do so would be to give all those with the reach and power to stop me guilt-complexes and have them run around trying to make others' lives better instead of focusing on how much I'm fucking them up. And I believe he has his right to free speech. Ultimately, if you look at a lot of his other stuff, he's got an outlook a little like william burroughs- that is, a misanthrope rather than a misogynist. Or will you condemn him for hating humanity too?

Like I said, he says most of his stuff just to piss people off. And seeing from your reaction, it's worked.

Now I present to all the lyrics from Marilyn Manson's "I Dont Like The Drugs, But The Drugs Like Me"...

Norm life baby "we're white and oh so hetero and our sex is
missionary."
Norm life baby "we're quitters and we're sober our confessions
will be televised."

You and I are underdosed and we're ready to fall
Raised to be stupid, taught to be nothing at all

I don't like the drugs but the drugs like me
I don't like the drugs, the drugs, the drugs

Norm life baby "our god is white and unforgiving we're piss
tested and we're praying."
Norm life baby "I'm just a sample of a soul made to look just
like a human being."

Norm life baby "we're rehabbed and we're ready dor our 15
minutes of shame."
Norm life baby "we're talkshown and we're poiting just like
christians at a suicide."

You and I are underdosed and we're ready to fall
Raised to be stupid, taught to be nothing at all
I don't like the drugs but the drugs like me
I don't like the drugs, the drugs, the drugs

on an unrelated note... 30.Oct.2004 17:31

maks

gay folk disarmed the words queer and faggot (to a degree, at least) by using 'em to describe themselves, in solidarity and in jest. the same happened with the word nigger and black folk. The way one disarms the sting of words is not to say "shut up! dont say that! This is a safe space!"

and another thing 30.Oct.2004 17:52

maks

"Otherwise we will learn that we do have to be sexist because every fucking time we ask for you to back us up, you ponder how wonderful you all are and how it just might be funny to fucking rape, brutalize and tear us limb from limb. Seriously. "

My god... (shakes head, picks up dictionary, searches for "generalization")

I thought this kind of argument only existed in Limbaugh-types' descriptions of what femnism really "was". Em doesn't make people want to rape any more than Grand Theft Auto makes people want to kill. Though there is one program that, according to some statistics, causes spikes in murder rates whenever a mass murder is shown. And that's the news.

If you ask me, advertising is what's fucking everyone up. And yes, I find eminem very therapeutic on occasion. And yes, there are times where I wanna blow shit up or cause mass damage to certain people. Now perhaps one of the reasons why he's so popular is that he's an "outlet".

So rather than bash him, look into why he says what he does and why people identify with him. Why there's an anti-female bent among certain male demographics and vice versa. Why everyone in america is so fucking angry. 'Cause if the extent of your radicalness is "Stop! Don't say that! That's obscene, hurtful, oppressive etc...."
then that's not too good.

Same Shit, Different Day... 30.Oct.2004 22:13

alsis38 alsis35@yahoo.com

"...i bet you hated "team america-world police"

Haven't seen it yet. Actually, *South Park* is a guilty pleasure of mine, in small doses. So I'm sure I'll find TM funny, as well. It's a poor comparison on your part, actually, because *SP* pretty much mocks everyone, including the culture of "redneck" machismo, not just women.

"...if you're looking for a good female conterpart to eminem then I suggest you check out Lady Saw...'stab up de meat' is a good starting point..."

How long has "Lady Saw" been around ? As long as Eminem ? If so, have you asked yourself why everyone and their dog in this country has known of his existence for years, but not hers ? Hmmmm... I think you may be proving my point for me, maks.

"...and i don't think he judges women as being virgins or whores... and I'm gonna go with primo levi's statement on judging...which is that one shouldn't judge anyone without first trying to understand whatever situation they're in..."

[Snicker.] And yet, Eminem casts judgement on women in every song he writes, knowing nothing of our experiences, but only that he wants an easy target and we're it. So it's okay for him to judge me but not for me to judge him. Noted, Mr. Sensitive.

"...(he was in auschwitz, so he might know a thing or two about experiencing others' situations) Remember that em's mother was diagnosed with munchhausen's syndrome byproxy, which prety much means that she'd make him sick and go around to hospitals looking for attention..."

That's Eminem's take on it, anyway. Does his mother agree ? Could he be lying himself for dramatic effect, or to make excuses for himself ? At any rate, you miss --or deliberately avoid-- the point: His Mom is not every woman in the universe, and yet his songs express hostility toward all women, not just his mother.

"...So he doesnt have a radical critique of where his anger comes from. Does that mean you'd badmouth anyone who'd say bitch, faggot or whatever else you find objectionable instead of trying to give them a bit of a radical analysis?..."

I think my belief that Eminem is simply the flip-side of the patriarchal "Upright Citizens" like Doug Wildmon, et al that he claims to be squarely against is quite "radical" enough. I take cuss-words and slurs on a case-by-case basis, usually, if they're about someone other than myself. However, I am a woman and when I hear anti-woman shit that bugs me, I'll say what I want about it. Ask me if I give two shits and a fuck whether my analysis is "radical" enough for a willfully clueless twerp like you.

Know what else ? If I was sitting next to a POC, a gay man or lesbian, and found myself laughing at the use of a slur which I thought was humorous, and the OBJECT OF THE SLUR tried to explain to me that they didn't personally find it very funny, I'd at least stop and think about what they were saying. After all, I've never been a POC, or a gay man or lesbian. I would try not to be so arrogant as to assume that I understand what it's like to live as them. You, on the other hand, are clearly arrogant, as you think nothing of unthinkingly telling me that my instincts as a woman couldn't possibly have any creedence. Heaven forbid anyone should make you think about the world from a perspective that doesn't have you or some other male as its central focus, you poor thing.

"...'Cause you sound like a whiny self-righteous activist, which in case you don't know is the kind I hate..."

Good. I'm not here for you to love, and I could give two shits that you think I'm "whining." Men who don't want to include women in social movements as anything other than silent, nuturing, coffee-pouring cyphers have been lobbing the acusation of "whining" against women who speak up for themselves for a billion years now, maks. You're as self-centered and unimaginative as the rest of them, so why should I care whether you like me or not ?

"...So would you alienate people like him because their language is less inoffensive than yours? 'Cause if so, then you're what's wrong with activism- the desire to be as inoffensive as possible, with sanitized language and behaviours and self-righteousness..."

Yes, yes, maks, I get it. Eminem gets to verbally puke all over every woman on the planet and we'd better smile sweetly and not say a thing about it, because Heaven FORBID we should "alienate" a man who treats us like shit. Puh-lease. And are you really so dualistic as to believe that there is no middle ground between "sanitized language" and pure unadulterated hate speech ? Grow up.

Is this some sort of attempt of yours to cast misogyny as some inevitable part of the make-up of a "working class hero" ? Funny, I remember Woody Guthrie lived in and depicted a pretty hardscrabble world that must've made him pretty angry with life at times, but he managed not to come across in his songs as a woman-hater. In fact, women were heroic figures in some of his songs.

Your argument about Eminem as some kind of blue-collar poet is also one I've heard a million times before, and it holds no more water now than it did then. Hell, Baudeliere was also a rabid misogynist who could couch his vile thoughts in words that people found lyrical and compelling. Misogyny actually cuts across all classes though the manner in which it's voiced changes depending on where you are. That doesn't make it exempt from critique.

"...As much as we have a duty to ensure that no more Hitlers emerge, it is also our duty to stop future Pol Pots..."

Ummm... what ? [scratches head] How does Eminem's rapping about stuffing a poisoned tampon up a woman do anything to fight fascism ? Hell, fascists like Hitler hated women. He wanted them in whorehouses or chained pregnant to a kitchen. That's something he and Eminem could've bonded over easily, I'm sure.

"...I'm not saying I excuse his past actions. Just don't count him out based on them..."

When he apologizes for the shit he's said, call me. Otherwise, I really don't care about the man. He could be swallowed up by a crack in the Earth tomorrow and I wouldn't consider the world a poorer place in any way.

"...and manson has been pretty fucking radical at times...as i remember he's always been a supporter of indymedia, for example. Give a song like "great Big White World", "DOnt Like The Drugs" or "Cyclops" a spin and see if you dont think there's a radical streak in him. He just brings his own take to the ring..."

That's nice. Your musical tastes are your own affair. I just find MM to be rather tedious. As far as political music, someone like Peter Case or a band like Ozomatli would be more my cup of borscht. I like my politics --and most music-- with very little glitz. That's my preference.

"...And im not saying that consumerism doesnt swallow up anything it can and turn that into a money-making machine. I'll say that 99.5% of what comes out of it is trash. Hell, I'd probably even be more critical of it than most folks... how 'bout that Fahrenheit 9/11? Nice bit of escapism, no? But it gave folks something to carry out with 'em..."

I would call "Farenheit 911" many things, but surely "escapism" isn't the word for it. I'm not sure what you're talking about here.

"...And Kurt Cobain was a situationist-type, interestingly enough. Was I the only one who saw that "Smells Like Teen Spirit" was a broadside to MTV and the music industry?
'here we are, now entertain us'... Looking back on stuff like that, I just cant see how they got away with something like that. But ultimately I'd rather hack into a radio or tv station then sit around watching em and saying 'ooh, how radical...'"

No, a great many people have commented on the song being a parody.

"...And yeah, I'm part of the patriarchy and benefit from it. But that doesnt mean I should go around with a guilt-complex..."

I'll tell you what some POCs have told me when we're arguing about racial issues: I don't want you to feel guilty. Guilt is paralytic, and does no one any good. I don't want you to throw away your Eminem video. I DO want you to consider that not everyone in the world has to feel the way you do, and that those others have a right to our feelings. I want you to consider that hate speech does indeed contribute to an unsafe environment in the minds of those who feel targeted by it. If diversity is anything other than an empty concept to you, you will consider those things. If not, I can't do anything about it. At any rate, feeling guilty is natural when you are part of a privileged class. Once you know you are privileged, feelings of guilt are as natural as breathing. But those feelings should be a jumping-off point to another level of action and awareness, not an excuse for crawling back into a cozy shelter borne of unexamined privilege.

"...If I were trying to establish a totalitarian state, a fucking good way to do so would be to give all those with the reach and power to stop me guilt-complexes and have them run around trying to make others' lives better instead of focusing on how much I'm fucking them up..."

Okay, I'm afraid you've lost me here.

"...And I believe he has his right to free speech. Ultimately, if you look at a lot of his other stuff, he's got an outlook a little like william burroughs- that is, a misanthrope rather than a misogynist. Or will you condemn him for hating humanity too?..."

Don't try and turn this into a free speech debate. It's a straw man on your part, and once again, one I've heard a million times from men who didn't want to examine their own privilege. I refuse to defend myself against an acusation that has fuck-all to do with anything I've said here.

I've never read Burroughs. Don't plan to anytime soon.

"...Like I said, he says most of his stuff just to piss people off. And seeing from your reaction, it's worked..."

Whatever, maks. I can always hope that in ten years, he'll be as forgotten by all but a few nostalgia hounds as Andrew Dice Clay is right now.

just provin' my point 31.Oct.2004 07:38

maks

eminem's an outlet. let me just say this- just 'cause you can't stand him, don't mean you should bash people who do like him.

and music can be just music. now you seem like one who's just not having enough fun. And you missed my Pol Pot reference, so I'll explain it to you. He was the leader of a Cambodian movement that mixed Marxism with religion, and pretty much worshipped the "working man/woman". Those not doing hard physical labor were somehow taking advantage of the working-folk and ended up being killed en masse- men, women, and children alike. Now I use Pol Pot as an example of the dangers of extreme dogmatism and a path that self-righteous "holier-than-thou" activism may potentially lead to. Look at any bio of Pol pot, and look at his teenage years. That self-righteousness is right there.

I'm never calling Em a working-class hero either, BTW. All I said was look at that man's upbringing and dont bash him for being pissed off based on it. And upbringings have changed a lot since the days of woody guthrie. Try a more modern example.

"Men who don't want to include women in social movements as anything other than silent, nuturing, coffee-pouring cyphers have been lobbing the acusation of "whining" against women who speak up for themselves for a billion years now, maks. You're as self-centered and unimaginative as the rest of them, so why should I care whether you like me or not ?"

isn't this classic? And the feminist argument of 'We are womyn!! Look at us!" is based on a dualism as well...that you cannot exist without your opposite and vice versa. It's stuff like this that makes me want to slap anyone babbling on about the wonders of their gender role upside the head with a spatula. And yes, were I ever to be babbling on about the superiority of my gender role I would expect a good backhanding too. Get out of the fucking aristotelian either-or groove. How the fuck can we get anything done if we're fighting each other. So you've got a fucking vagina. Good for you. No, you'll never hear me going on about the greatness of my schlong. It's just what I was born with thru the evolutionary lottery.

And no, I dont know why all the buildings and weapons are phallic. I'm not the one to ask. I am not personally responsible for the patriarchy, but babble on and insult me as if I were, and, to quote eminem, you'll do nothing but piss me off. You're not a representative of ths thing called "women" or "womyn" or whatever silly way one can spell a word, and neither am I a representative of this entity called "men". The difference is that I state it outright and don't claim to represent anyone but myself. Perhaps important words to take to heart, no?


Let me just say that in my activist experience I've always noted most of the women as being way more exclusionary than most of the men. Now, judging from your argument, you might say that this is an instinctive response to being harassed by Eminem and his ilk, and having a reason to believe that the guys are laughing in their heads about raping and dismembering all of them.

THE GUYS OUT THERE ARE NOT THE FUCKING PATRIARCHY! most of them don't even know what patriarchy is! Is this the way you want to get your fucking revolution done? Backlash, and counter-backlash, to infinity?

Now I'm way too tired to continue this argument, which I'll probably pick up in a few hours or so. Your turn.

Yawn. On Stilts. 31.Oct.2004 12:57

alsis38 alsis35@yahoo.com

"...Now I use Pol Pot as an example of the dangers of extreme dogmatism and a path that self-righteous "holier-than-thou" activism may potentially lead to. Look at any bio of Pol pot, and look at his teenage years. That self-righteousness is right there..."

I know who Pol Pot is, Thanks. I just wanted you to clarify my suspicion that you are so afraid of your hero being critiqued that, of course, you must acuse anyone who does so of secretly harboring genocidal, dictatorial thoughts. Pathetic. Sadly typical, too.

Of course you don't have to wave you "maleness" around, Idiot. "Male" is the default setting for "normal" in any and all human interactions, including in activist circles. Perhaps you should ponder this for awhile and then consider that perhaps the women you acuse of being "exclusionary" are doing so out of a sense of self-preservation and a desire to be in an arena where their feelings are not constantly put down and belittled by men.

I don't really worry about whether or not you think I'm having "fun" or not, Maks. That's not the issue here and I'm not interested in straw man arguments.

"...you cannot exist without your opposite and vice versa. It's stuff like this that makes me want to slap anyone babbling on about the wonders of their gender role upside the head with a spatula. And yes, were I ever to be babbling on about the superiority of my gender role I would expect a good backhanding too. Get out of the fucking aristotelian either-or groove. How the fuck can we get anything done if we're fighting each other. So you've got a fucking vagina. Good for you. No, you'll never hear me going on about the greatness of my schlong. It's just what I was born with thru the evolutionary lottery..."

Maybe you should tell this to Eminem. I'm not the one going around making millions off psychotic homicidal fantasies of using an innate superiority created by my genitalia to humiliate, maim and kill another gender. It's your hip-hop hero that's doing that, and you don't want to brook criticism of him, however reasoned, because your own privilege is threatened by any such critique. You don't need to express your own superiority, you have him to do it all for you. Then you can kick in with the defense that it's "all in fun" if any woman dares to complain.

You haven't adressed very many of my points. You've just rambled about "phallic buildings" and dropped names like Aristotle and Burroughs as if I'm supposed to be impressed because you know who they are. I'm not impressed, and I'm done here. You're a lousy listener, but then again if you really listened, you'd have to consider that perhaps the world doesn't revolve around you and your schlong. Have all the fun you care to in your little plastic bubble of privilege, Maks. You and Eminem get out there and make the world safer, defending your brand of misogyny against the misogynists in the other camp. Whether a woman-hater wears a black hood, a black silk poet's shirt, or a black cassock, he's just a misogynist to me. You two deserve one another.

(unsure whether to laugh or shake head and sigh) 31.Oct.2004 17:07

maks

as I recall, you made the inane comment:

"Otherwise we will learn that we do have to be sexist because every fucking time we ask for you to back us up, you ponder how wonderful you all are and how it just might be funny to fucking rape, brutalize and tear us limb from limb. Seriously. "

let's take a good long look at who's restricting who around here. All I said was that I reserve the right to enjoy eminem's music. go ahead and call him a misogynist if you like, but there's a definite line between bashing him, and bashing me for liking his music. Enjoyment of a bit of his music here and there doesn't mean I'll do what he says. And you sound like catherine fucking mackinnon with your fucking self-righteousness. All you need is a parrot. Just think.... you can train it to squawk on command "all sex is rape! all sex is rape!"

quoting eminem:

"A lot of people think that.. what I say on record
or what I talk about on a record, that I actually do in real life
or that I believe in it
Or if I say that, I wanna kill somebody, that..
I'm actually gonna do it
or that I believe in it"


take a look at your argument calling me self-centered. now is it just me, or have you taken it upon yourself to become the voice of the female gender...once again I'll tell it to ya: you're too fuckin' self-righteous. I would recoend that you read bob black's "feminism as fascism", a brilliant ripping of the sector of feminism which your arguments seem to represent.

you call eminem's music hate speech. now I'll agree with that to a point. He's said some pretty fucking offensive things in the past, things which I have a serious problem with. In fact there are a few of his songs which disgust me. But then again I will not write off his potential for social commentary based on what he's said in the past. People quote louis althusser's brilliant analyses of the state's reproduction of itself. He actually butchered his wife, rather than just talking about it. (this is just an example rather than a suggestion to abandon althusser, wo i think is brilliant)

I'm not defending eminem based on him being my hero... you just can't seem to read into what I'm fucking saying, can you? It's just that a world where one isn't free to speak one's mind is not the kind of world I'd like to live in. And I think we owe it to ourselves to stop those who claim to be more righteous, more knowing, and more "correct" (politically or otherwise)...for one, pol pot is an excellent example of self-righteousness gone haywire. And for another thing, aren't we all sick of the person who rails at us for not being vegan, or critiques the string of cuss words that come out of our mouths when we stub our fucking toes.

alsis38, you sound like those people who railed against Bret Easton Ellis's "American Psycho" when it was released; their arguments were almost identical to yours. They wanted to go so far as to have the book banned. Some even burned copies of it. I myself thought it was brilliant. How about you?

Now in order to justify your claim that eminem promotes a culture of misogyny, you'd normally have to offer up stats that show an increase in violence against women in certain demographics...you know, with the 'man, he said it, so...' or 'he's so fucking right, i never knew how much I hate my bitch..' quotes to back you up, as opposed to merely calling the opposing party a twerp and hoping that self-righteous language will compensate for lack of actual arguments. So where's the hard evidence?

In my opinion, insulting eminem and his fans avoids a look at just why people in america (and young people, at that) are so fucking pissed off. It is pretty convenient to label others as something, rather than look at them as fellow individuals/creations of their times like one's self with motives for their actions.

(knows that this will bring a heap of straw-men down upon his head, like every previous time he's attempted to argue. but does it anyway, as he's feeling particularly gutsy)

and no, you've not addressed my main points either. quoting my statements and subsequently posting often unrelated, rambling, ad-hominems, straw-man statements may cut it with your clique, but then again, I don't like you much either. And I don't even know you. Arent you a wonderful communicator, no?

In summary I'll say this. I may not agree with what someone says, but I will defend his/her right to say it and the ability of that material to remain accessible by any and all who wish to say it, as long as the potential to present a critique of that material exists, is available to any and all who wish to do so, and is available to any and all who wish to read it. In other words, no censorship whatsoever. In eminem's case, there's plenty of critiques in existence of him, including you, who claim he's my hero 'cause I advocate total non-censorship. He's not like Putin, Mugabe, or even this joke of a leadership, whom one can get pretty badly hurt for opposing.

I also advocate all manner of 'unnatural' sexual practices and experimentation with drugs. I should send you a piece I wrote in defense of cannibalism and its many virtues. But something tells me there may not be enough hair left on your scalp to fit the definition of "clump". What the hell, I should just send it to you anyways, you can always pull the individual strands out by the roots while cursing in nonoppressive language.

you 2 idiots are 31.Oct.2004 18:54

Doctor Jay

what's wrong with the movement. Kick yourselves in the asses hard and get some sense

Mmmm... Cannibalism... 31.Oct.2004 22:11

alsis38 alsis35@yahoo.com

Sounds fabulous.

Say "goodnight," maks.