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government selection 2004

Nader Oregon campaign responds to fraud allegations

As many of the media savvy are now aware, there has been a new and savage attack on our campaign. This started last week as we received news from petition circulators, (both paid and volunteer), stating that they had gotten a letter in the mail from a law firm stating that they were "under investigation" for fraudulently filling out the petition form. As an example, one person "under investigation" was a lawyer that had just herself and her family sign. One elderly lady had two people show up at her house past 9 pm telling her that she was under investigation and that she might do jail time for not filling out her forms right. All of her forms were in compliance.
An explanation of the "Fraud" issue
August 16, 2004


The reasons for this should be clear to any right-thinking individual, to intimidate and scare off potential circulators and smear the campaign. It has been somewhat successful. Some people have stopped gathering signatures when we need them the most.

For one thing using the word "fraud" would imply that the campaign was flooding the county offices with signatures that were not only false, but were engineered by the campaign. This is patently false. We know that under the Bradbury eye, we will get no breaks and that every signature will be scrutinized to the nth degree. In fact, Democrat observers have been at the Multnomah County offices for much of the time.

Our validation rates are between 65% and 70% which is natural for a street campaign as opposed to door to door. We did learn of some signature gatherers hired through a firm that were padding their lists and they were promptly fired by that firm. It does not behoove this shoestring budgeted campaign to pay for signatures that are knowingly invalid. Again, the county offices certify every single one of these signatures.

So where does that leave us? More unfounded lies leveled against the campaign by the SEIU, which is tied to the Kerry campaign. It is unfortunate that many people will believe these lies regardless of the visible and recorded truth. It is criminal that people with no other agenda than to further progressive policies are being personally attacked. It is disgusting that the Secretary of State will listen to the obvious lies and not address the real crime, the attack on supporters.

We will endure the slings and arrows as we have all the challenges placed before us and in the end, we will prevail in clear conscience.

Something that these aggressors cannot do.

Peace and Solidarity,
Travis

homepage: homepage: http://naderoregon.org


nice PR 17.Aug.2004 20:10

countzero

I work for ACT. Your signitures are as far as we can tell about 90% false. You are doing serious forgery, duplication and other tactics. How do I know this? Because my group was assigned to investigate by going door to door where people supposedly live; about 50% percent of the time we found no address, no person living at the address and people that had been misled what they were signing.
Nice work you guys.
I am not a Kerry head but Nader really does not need to stoop so low.

the democrats will stop at nothing to subvert our democracy 17.Aug.2004 21:03

one who knows

Many Kerry supporters are signing Nader petitions with false addresses to invalidate the petitions. I guess some people will never learn, you can't save a democracy by destroying its principles.

Kill the Democrats 17.Aug.2004 21:15

George Bender

In the past I've worked with Democrats and labor people on various issues. I don't plan to do it again. These people are scum.


Vagrants 17.Aug.2004 21:25

Talala

I have seen the petitioners. Can you say "HOMELESS"? HAHAHAHA

thanks for clearing that up 17.Aug.2004 21:40

.

It's good to know the Kerryites are still arrogant elitist classist fascists.

HAHAHAHA

Clarify crystal clear 17.Aug.2004 21:59

Talala

It's good to know the Kerryites are still arrogant elitist classist fascists.
HAHAHAHA

I guess you need a little more "clarity". One of them actually begged me to sign the petition because he needed a "meal", assuring me that Nader had no chance to get all the petitions anyway. Not a Kerryite.

I'm sure you did what any Kerryite would do 17.Aug.2004 22:13

.

And took the time to piss on him. Or maybe just explained how welfare reform had improved his life.

All hail Kerry! Ronald Reagan for the 21st century!

HAHAHAHA

Way to jump in line 17.Aug.2004 22:35

Nader Guy

Of the roughly 4000 signature that have been returned to the Campaign, 65-70% are recorded as valid by the County Elections offices. This is on the record. Check it. It's gold.

What are your facts "countzero?"

Are you really going to the homes of signors interogating people on what they have signed? Do you expect to always get the truth in the atmosphere of a witchhunt? Do you wear a brown shirt and armband while you do it? Are you payed as most "ACT"ivists are?


Speaking of paying.... Yes, some petition circulators are payed. There is no way to collect the 24,000 signatures (one of the highest per cap in the nation,) in such a time without them. I'm glad that some are doing so well that they can make light of their status. I'm sure that under Kerry they will do so much better. After all, Kerry wants to raise the minimum wage to a whopping $7 an hour!!!!

Oh, wait. Oregon's wage is $7.25

You know what, I am in this campaign for a lot of reasons. Too many to list here. One of them comes up every day especially as Kerry champions this war more and more. IF I VOTE FOR KERRY, I WILL HAVE THE BLOOD OF IRAQI'S ON MY HANDS.

And so will you

You so funny 17.Aug.2004 22:35

Talala

I dont think you need clarification. I think you need an electric cool aid acid test.

Nader Guy 17.Aug.2004 22:49

Talala

Lots of reasons to be in this campaign? Like 75 cents a signature? Hmmm. Good for a couple bottles of cheap wine a night? So good.

it must be nice 17.Aug.2004 23:11

reader

To insult people less fortunate then yourself. You must sleep the comfortable sleep of Dick Cheney. It's no wonder the democrats keep losing elections.

Reader 17.Aug.2004 23:21

Talala

You assume too much dear. I am by no means rich or well off. I simply object to the notion of selling votes for drug abuse. I have morals -do you? " Nah, I'm a fuckin anarchist who cares about stinkin morals-HAHAHHAHA"

I'm not assuming anything 17.Aug.2004 23:38

.

I *know* you're a classist elitist piece of shit. It's you who are assuming that the "meal" was liquor or drugs, which shows your inherent class (and/or perhaps race) bias. All poor people are drug users and winos to you, surely they never actually eat. But those are just your "assumptions". Your "morals" sound more like moral superiority and classism, which of course makes you a perfect Kerrite.

Piss on the poor; don't give them money cause they'll just spend it on drugs and cadillacs, wine and color tv's. The Reagan Youth are now the Kerry Youth. Same shit different century. But keep it up, I love it when Kerryites show their true colors, and I'm sure others do to.

HAHAHHAHA
HAHAHHAHA
HAHAHHAHA

non-sequitor 17.Aug.2004 23:42

citizen

"I simply object to the notion of selling votes for drug abuse"

What are you talking about? Who is "selling votes"? Where is the "drug abuse"?

Are you high? Or are you a republican troll just trying to make the democrats look bad.

Real world 17.Aug.2004 23:50

Talala

" "I simply object to the notion of selling votes for drug abuse"
What are you talking about? Who is "selling votes"? Where is the "drug abuse"?
Are you high? Or are you a republican troll just trying to make the democrats look bad "

I guess youre too dull to read between the lines "citizen" Spanky. Free meals are a dime a dozen downtown. Its the cash that is needed for "extracurricular" activities. Talking about classicism! I live in the real world. How is it out there in the 'burbs?

don't mind talala land 17.Aug.2004 23:56

mtb

he's jarfk.

yes, how silly of me 18.Aug.2004 00:01

citizen

I must have forgotten that the only reason people want to get paid is to buy drugs. Clearly, why else would anyone want money. In fact our whole economy is just based on the premise that all people work for money to buy drugs and alcohol.

Thanks for making it clear that you're a republican troll.

PS, you didn't hide it very well.

Citizen 18.Aug.2004 00:19

Talala

" must have forgotten that the only reason people want to get paid is to buy drugs. Clearly, why else would anyone want money. In fact our whole economy is just based on the premise that all people work for money to buy drugs and alcohol."

I think you need more context. Backscroll a few posts Spanky.

what I heard from my friend 18.Aug.2004 08:39

Sam

So my friend is in sore need of some money so he took a job for ACT early last week. He quit after one night. He told me that they were going to people's doors registering voters but if they asked and found out the person said they might vote for Bush they would say "thank you" and move on to the next house without registering them.

My friend is fairly apolitical and I have no reason to believe he wasn't being truthful, while I have many reasons to believe people would stoop to such undemocratic and dishonest levels.

Talala 18.Aug.2004 09:33

zero_sum0g

We're not talking about "selling votes" here. We're talking about overcoming ridiculous hurdles to even get someone on the ballot as a VOTING CHOICE.

So, are you against the freedom to vote for whomever you like? Do you believe our only choices should be dictated by wealthy corporations who influence the major parties through direct financial support (called bribery outside of the USA)?

So far you haven't proved you have anything to say other than insulting the poor... you do seem to be having fun here though, so I think I'll leave my comments at this rather than feed your trollish nature.

third party starts at the local level 18.Aug.2004 10:07

the crystallizer

"Many Kerry supporters are signing Nader petitions with false addresses to invalidate the petitions"
IF NADER WAS WANTED IN THIS ELECTION, THERE WOULD BE ENOUGH SIGNATURES TO PUT HIM ON THE BALLOT! PERIOD, END OF DISCUSSION. SIGNATURES FROM PHONEY SOURCES WOULD NOT MATTER.

"We're talking about overcoming ridiculous hurdles to even get someone on the ballot as a VOTING CHOICE."
THE PROCESS IS WORKING; NADER IS NOT WANTED IN THIS ELECTION, THE PEOPLE ARE LETTING YOU KNOW. REPUBLICANS ASIDE THAT IS.

writing in CAPS shows your insecurity 18.Aug.2004 11:16

patriot

There are more than enough people in this state that want Nader on the ballot. Nor is it the right of anyone to say he cannot be on the ballot for that is anti-democratic. Personally I was going to vote for Kerry but now I'm not voting for any democrats in this election. I will not support those who subvert our democracy be it democrat or republican. The issue with phony signatures is that one phony signature can invalidate an entire petition sheet, therefore, those who wish to sabotage the Nader campaign can do so easily by taking away the voice of others. This kind of fascism will not be tolerated. You can lie to yourself and say it's for the greater good but the Nazi's said the same thing. I hope one day you come to realize how important democracy truly is.

A little reality is needed Patriot 18.Aug.2004 11:51

crystallizer

"There are more than enough people in this state that want Nader on the ballot"
IF THAT WAS THE CASE THAN THIS THREAD WOULD BE NON-EXISTENT.

"The issue with phony signatures is that one phony signature can invalidate an entire petition sheet....."
PLEASE PROVIDE SOME MORE INFORMATION ABOUT THIS (LINK,STORY, ETC....)
IT DOES NOT SEEM CORRECT TO THROW OUT AN ENTIRE PETITION BECAUSE OF A FEW PHONY NAMES.

Divide and conquer 18.Aug.2004 11:56

Sewlan

Looks like the Republicans are up to their fascist tricks again. DIVIDE AND CONQUER. Yes, it appears that Karl Rove is calling the shots.

perhaps 18.Aug.2004 12:02

Al Rove / Karl From

But only if you believe that the DLC is working with Rove, which I guess wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.

Getting Worried & Scared of Ralph 18.Aug.2004 12:27

Dont Intimidate me @ my House callingzebra3@hotmail.com

Nader voters don't cheat nor do they need to or want to.
Democrats have been cheating all along to stop Ralph across the USA
And all the republicans are siding with their King Liar as usual
Let Ralph get on the ballot, heck it is aMERICA anyone can run!
Any Party could have done the rigged fraud signatures. Think about it
Nader voters are for TRUTH and I know it hurts ya
I had 2 questioners stop at my door the other day to see if I had signed for Ralph
One was a progressive activist environmentalist that I know
who is sold out to kERRY (good cop/bad cop idea that "anybody but bUSH is good enough)
I DID actually sign and I'm Pissed that I am being hounded & intimidated
The SEIU that is fostering this intrusion to check on me is ant-aMERICAN
Seems as we get closer lots of people are getting worried about Ralph & the election >GOOD< Wait till they hear him in the Debates
hahaha
Truth & justice will prevail no matter how many tricks to stop him are tried.
And the Bozo's are all out swarming like flies

collecting signatures in Oregon 18.Aug.2004 12:28

resident

Or,

How to keep any measure off an Oregon ballot in 3 easy steps:

1. Have people sign their names multiple times on different petition sheets
2. Conduct an "independent" audit of the ballots
3. Report all duplicates to the secretary of state, each duplicate reported will remove hundreds of other names do to the sampling procedure

Of course, this can only occur with the cooperation of the secretary of state and his office, to the frustration of progressives and regressives alike.

correction 18.Aug.2004 12:32

resident

How to keep any measure or candidate off an Oregon ballot in 3 easy steps

This is so sad 18.Aug.2004 13:11

little

Democrats who support these tactics, well seriously, you should be ashamed.

If nader doesn't get on the ballot I will write him in. Fuck all of you demofascists!

Best Strategy 18.Aug.2004 13:13

in the house

If you live in a "safe state", one that will vote overwhelmingly Republican, then vote the third party candidate of your choice. If you live in a "swing state" then you should think very carefully about the implications of voting for a third party candidate who has very little chance of winning. Unfortunately the reality is that it IS an anybody but the shrub choice, sadly enough. And yet maybe Kerry will shine if elected - who knows.

NEVER retreat to the "other camp" 18.Aug.2004 14:48

stedfast in beleifs

Maybe he will shine ????? hahaha dont come crying back here when he shines like a dim-wit. The Bush / Kerry ((choice?)) is equivalent to the ol' Good Cop / Bad Cop. Both of the sides are the "same coin". The progressive Left has abandoned the Dream. They have given in to the Good/Bad mentality ruse, and have forsaken the quest for what is right. It is the voice of dissent and distaste; it is the cry for Democracy & PEACE, and an end to Corporate welfare that you will have forsaken. As you lay aside your Civil Liberties and join rank with the Monster, remember where and why you sold your souls. Ralph is more determined than ever to face this good/bad duality and the support you choose is your vote and lets hope you know why/what you are voting for >>>> all that you don't support or believe in even in those swing-states where there is little chance you are seelling democracy down the river>>> kERRY supports >>NAFATA;CAFTA;PATRIOT-ACT,DRUG-WAR;IRAQ-WAR,CORPORATE-WELFARE,ENVIROMENTAL,HELTH-CARE,FAIR-LABOR,MILITARY-SPENDING. In tense times we need to stay united for all our causes and don't EVER take up a partnership with the Monster in hopes that "he just might"

Some facts 18.Aug.2004 16:24

patriot don't know nuthin

One forged signature doesn't do anything but invalidate the forged signature, IF it's caught. Most of the time, they aren't, as the county system is built to check if the name belongs to a registered voter, not to closely check handwriting or address info. That's why the SEIU independent research is showing a much higher fraud rate than the county.

You can't invalidate a whole sheet by signing a duplicate either, as again candidate petitions are checked line by line. It is only initiatives that have a formula for sampling.

Actually, signing forgeries and duplicates just makes it more likely that some will slip by the county, which was apparently happening before the fraud was exposed.

more facts 18.Aug.2004 16:31

read for yourself

 http://www.blueoregon.com/2004/08/nader_ballot_fr_2.html

See the fraud for yourself on Blueoregon. Check out the letter from the Secretary of State to the Nader campaign.

Nader, Oregon Democrats in political brawl 18.Aug.2004 19:05

Brad Cain

San Diego Union-Tribune
 http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/politics/20040818-1429-or-naderslaststand.html

ASSOCIATED PRESS
2:29 p.m. August 18, 2004

SALEM, Ore. - Accusations of dirty tricks are relatively rare in Oregon politics, but Ralph Nader's independent presidential candidacy has sparked charges and countercharges between his campaign and backers of Democratic nominee John Kerry.

Union officials who are supporting Kerry this week accused Nader's backers of engaging in widespread fraud and forgery in gathering signatures to place Nader on the Nov. 2 ballot in this battleground state.

Nader's supporters countered that Democrats and their union allies are resorting to "gangster" tactics by bullying and intimidating signature gatherers in hopes of thwarting Nader's petition drive.

The 70-year-old consumer activist is in a last-ditch effort to qualify for the ballot in Oregon, a state that was once one of his strongholds.

During two separate mini-conventions, he failed to collect the 1,000 signatures he needed to get on the ballot.

For the past few weeks Nader has been trying another means for getting on the ballot - collecting 15,000 petition signatures across the state.

He's got until until next Tuesday to gather the signatures. And as the deadline nears, allegations by his campaign and by his opponents have become increasingly nasty.

A public employees union, the Service Employees International Union, has filed election complaints with the state saying it has heard from more than 30 people who say their names were falsified on Nader's petitions.

The union also has sent letters to nearly 60 of Nader's signature gatherers warning them that they could face a felony conviction and a prison term for knowingly submitting fraudulent signatures.

"The evidence indicates a clear pattern of widespread signature fraud in the effort to put Nader on the ballot," union spokesman Mark Weiner said.

Nader's Oregon coordinator, Greg Kafoury, said one of Nader's petition gatherers was left "badly shaken and intimidated" after two union members knocked on her door and told her she was under investigation.

"We have been sabotaged and smeared, and now we have had our people bullied by people who knock on doors at night," Kafoury said, adding that there's been no intentional effort to turn in invalid signatures.

Kafoury said 30 of the campaign's 150 petition carriers have quit as a result of the union's actions, but he said the Nader campaign still believes it will be able to meet Tuesday's deadline to qualify Nader.

The intense level of charges and countercharges is a further sign that the major political players in the state view Nader as a potential spoiler who could draw votes away from Kerry and help President Bush this fall.

In his earlier attempts to qualify for the ballot, Nader got help from some Republicans who believe his presence on the ballot could help Bush win Oregon.

At Nader's second failed convention, some Democrats came and took up seats in the meeting hall but refused to sign Nader's petitions, leaving Nader short of the signatures he needed.

Portland pollster Tim Hibbitts said he can understand why Democrats want to keep Nader off the ballot, but he thinks the threat that Nader poses to Kerry's candidacy is "overblown."

Hibbitts said Nader's support has slipped badly since 2000, when he got 5 percent of the Oregon vote in one of the closest presidential contests. Democrat Al Gore edged Bush by less than 1 percent of the vote.

"Generals often re-fight the last war, and so do political people," Hibbitts said. "The Democrats believe Nader cost them votes the last time, and they are playing hardball to make sure it doesn't happen again."

A poll last month by the American Research Group in Manchester, N.H., showed Kerry with 50 percent support from Oregon voters compared with 42 percent for Bush and 4 percent for Nader.

Still, a top Oregon Democrat said Kerry's supporters aren't going to sit idly by and watch Nader play a possible spoiler's role if the race in Oregon tightens in the next few months.

"We've haven't made any effort to impede Mr. Nader from getting on the ballot legitimately," said Neel Pender, the state party's executive director. "But we are not going let him throw the election to George Bush and take down Oregon's electoral process as well."


Vote Green 19.Aug.2004 10:01

B

Too bad Nader's candidacy isn't doing anything with legs beyond November 3rd. Vote Green, join the Green Party, support the Green Party.

Here are the 4 Pillars of Green Ideology:

1. Peace and non-violence
2. Grassroots Democracy
3. Ecological Wisdom
4. Personal and social responsibility


haha 19.Aug.2004 11:06

steel

I think the whole Nader crowd is crooked from the top down. I'm a virtually starving student and it really pisses me off when the school automatically charges a fee to my account that goes straight to support OSPIRG, which is just a student chapter of Ralphie's PIRG. This fee is literally impossible to avoid at my school and it goes to support what is essentially a private organization. Most people don't even know that they pay to support Nader's group because OSPIRG does its best to hide the fact that they make millions of dollars a year from fees stolen from students across the country. So any petition drive sponsored by these folks is bound to be full of shadiness. The saddest thing is that I really like many things that they do, but I'll never support them because of the way that they gain funding. Let them do like all the other nonprofits do in these times; work hard and struggle for funds the honest way! But apparently honesty doesn't carry much currency with them.

Don't confuse the two 19.Aug.2004 12:44

laszlo

I am not a fan of Nader's candidacy, but don't lump the PIRGs in with his political organization. Nader founded the PIRGs in the early 1970's, but hasn't had anything to do with them for at least 20 years. Same goes for Public Citizen and a lot of the other orgs he started. In fact, many of them have spent the last four years trying to distance themselves from Nader as much as possible, due to the backblast from Ralph's throwing the 2000 election to Bush. If you don't like the mandatory checkoff from tuition going to the PIRG, that's something to take up with your student government.

Nader is not the reason Bush won 19.Aug.2004 14:49

little

STOP LYING ABOUT NADER "CAUSING" BUSH TO WIN!

It is not true. When liberals repeat this lie they not only sound stupid and ill-informed but they also sound like double-speaking neocons. It's sick and wrong.

The truth is Bush was placed in office by his friends in the Supreme Court (who stopped the recount) and the Senate including Kerry (who REFUSED to stand up and challenge the validity of the mock 2000 election).

Get real and face it Nader DID NOT steal votes from Gore or cause Bush to be placed in office. Geez.

You're in denial 19.Aug.2004 15:00

laszlo

Nader threw the election to Bush. Deal with it.

Crybabies 19.Aug.2004 16:36

Right 2 Vote

(steel)"This fee is literally impossible to avoid at my school and it goes to support what is essentially a private organization."

All you have to do to get your 4 to 6 dollars back is ask for it at the office where you pay your fees & tuition. It is refundable.
Ya, you support what they do ... but you want your money back
To bad that you blame Ralph for something that was established 20 years ago to bring $ for those kind of issues that you say you support
But not with your dollars ??What OSPRIG has done was fight hard (and Legally) to get money into their group from the young progressive college kids whom generally rise up to fight the issue that our Government robs or forces us to accept. Most of the colleges wanted to participate in this because it is a good cause, that's why it is part of the policy. PS reading the small print usually helps
----------------

"Nader threw the election to Bush. Deal with it." <laszlo>

Let me clarify something about America
You cannot force or tell somebody not to run for president
You cannot blame them if they run, for the outcome of the race
It is unacceptable in the general sense of political right/wrong to not let Democracy flourish. Blame is in your own head it is not really a fact. And that is why it is OK for who ever wants to run to be able to run, and that goes for voting too. Besides can you see Ralph Nader siding up with the Democrat crooks? He wants no part of that party...see in America if you don't like what you get, run for office and try and change things, so spare the comments that he "threw the election or caused bUSH to win" In America we can run if we like ...when you understand & respect this "right" you will accept fate for what it is. Its sad to see that there are people who think they should be able to tell others to run or not to. You have no right to expect that. Im just glad Ralph dosent care or sway when that type of backward thinking is expressed.
Now vote for the best man possible & quit your crying

laszlo, willful ignorance is a handicap 19.Aug.2004 22:27

educate yourself

One could claim that Gore threw the election to Bush since 300,000 Florida democrats voted for Bush. Of course, that would only serve to legitimize an illegitimate election, as the democrats have tried to do for the past 4 years. The Florida election in 2000 (and 2002) was not legitimate due to numerous documented instances of voter fraud, voter intimidation, illegal voter purges, voting machine "errors" (like Gore getting -16,000 votes in a county of 600 people), voting machines settings with the result of disenfranchising minority voters, and much more.

Don't follow the democratic leadership who desperately want people to consider Bush a legitimately elected leader. Educate yourself.

I've had about thirty yeathree decades to educate myself 20.Aug.2004 00:42

laszlo

You can argue all you want about the 2000 election being "illegitimate," but it's a dead horse and none of the arguments you raise are going to resuscitate it or change the result. The fact is, the 2000 election was a decided by a razor-thin margin in Florida and several other states and the votes for Nader were the key factor in Bush's victory in those states, which was enough to affect the electoral vote. You may deny it, but the GOP won't, and that is why they are pouring money and in-kind help to Ralph's campaign this year. If you wish to argue that there is no practical difference between Bush and Kerry, that's your privilege but there will be disagreement on that point. About four years ago, a Nader pamphleteer told me to "Vote your dreams, not your fears." Sorry, but with Bush having the inside track on another four years, I'm voting my fears. It sucks, but sometimes you get stuck with shitty choices and you have to make the best of it.

Ralph talks a good game on the issues, but my mom is even better on most of them---but I wouldn't dream of running her for president, even though she's held elective office. Ralph hasn't, and he doesn't have the temperament to be a national politician. Most of the electorate appears to agree with that assessment, otherwise Ralph wouldn't have had to scramble for 1,000 attendees at his Oregon convention, and now for the necessary petition signatures.

Rather than pursuing his grander goals, Ralph's campaign now appears to be motivated more by a hatred of the Democratic party for disregarding him. The notion that the Democrats will be motivated to incorporate him and his platform, following a loss of the 2004 election, is a fantasy. The electorate is centrist, for good or ill, and the Democats have made the calculation that they have more to lose by pandering to a marginal constituency than by trying to capture independent and centrist Republican votes. It's simply a matter of capturing 6 percent of the national vote versus 3 percent, and they're going for the bigger percentage because they might win the White House and the Senate with it. I don't like it, but you can't refuse to accept the situation if you want to move into the sea lanes of national politics.

the facts are there; ignore them at your peril 20.Aug.2004 01:08

educate yourself

"You may deny it, but the GOP won'"

So you're saying those honest truth-tellers that are the GOP are being honest? Bullshit, they know what happened. Do you want proof? Here it is:

If Nader truly harmed the democrats more than the republicans the republicans would get Nader into the debates. Would you care to wager on how likely that is?

"that is why they are pouring money and in-kind help to Ralph's campaign this year"

They are pouring 1/1000th of the money they are pouring into Kerry. What does that tell you? It's not hard to figure out.

"The fact is, the 2000 election was a decided by a razor-thin margin in Florida"

No, the election was decided by the Supreme Court. Probably 200,000 more people tried to vote for Gore than Bush; they either weren't allowed to vote or their votes just weren't counted.

Furthermore, that razor-thin margin could have been overcome if Gore hadn't given up more than 300,000 democrat votes to Bush. So again, if anyone was a "spoiler" it was Gore for his own party.

Finally, there is nothing saying that if Nader hadn't been in the race Gore would have picked up any of those votes (any more than if Gore hadn't been in the race Nader would have picked up his votes). You can argue an abstract reality all you want about what might have happened, but the truth is you don't know. Therefore, it is illogical to argue that Nader cost Gore the election.

If the democrats don't start analyzing their failures in 2000 and 2002 (not to mention the past several decades) and their success lie 1992 when a third party fiscally responsible, socially liberal candidate "spoiled" the race allowing the democrats to win. Yet the republicans were never so stupid to destroy their base by spending 4 years attacking him. They chose an effective strategy. Will the democratic leadership ever do the same? Or have the achieved their goals already, by turning the democrats into a "business-friendly" party to rival the Reagan republican party. For if the democrats are courting the republicans, can they still be called "democrats". Would the republican party by any other name be less repugnant?

You are free to vote your fears, and in that I am sorry for you. It's a terrible thing to live in fear. It's a terrible thing the democrats couldn't nominate a candidate that you could vote for because you actually agreed with his positions. Still, it is absolutely critical that you consider that the vote-rigging that has occurred in the past 2 elections (and to a lesser extent before that) will occur again. If you don't want Bush to win, you will have to take this seriously, or you will lose, no matter how many people vote for Kerry out of fear (or in the case of republicans, agreement).

VOTE FOR MY MOM 20.Aug.2004 11:41

DONE BEEN EDUCATED

"educate yourself"

very well written post!
you the laid facts out plain as day!
thanks for seting the record straight!
excellent points and very level heading thinking!
i glad i could read your opinion and thanks for the information!