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Old Text From American Atheist Founder on "Jewishness"

.
Often their are those who suggest that their "jewishness" trancendends religious preferance or heritage, that their is a national basis for it ( a basis shared by HERTZEL AND HITLER), and of course contrary to logic. Jews, obviously do not meet one let alone all five points necassary to be a nationality ( Puerto Ricans of all racial/religious backgrounds share a common language, economic life, definable boundries, culture, and history none of which are shared by the worlds jewry), the attempt to create it is just EGOISM AND ZIONISM.

I am not suggesting the person below, is someone whose positions I even remotely represent in general, but this is a surprisingly solid and principled stance on "jewishness" that our favorite zionist "anti-zionist" groups like "Jews For Global Just-us" (and not the Goyim). . Even though most people may not know it, Such crap would never have held up 100 years ago.

Often time we say that Jewishness is religious or lack of. We do not say Lack of because we consider judahism inferior or superior particularly ( all though I will admit I would never convert to monotheism even as I was supporting anti-US and anti-Zionist Islamic Resistance) but because often non or even anti-Judahism "jews" declare that they are "jewish" even when rejecting Judahism based on the EGOISM OF A CHOSEN PEOPLE claiming a tribalistic birthright and suggesting it is a nationality, a nationality impossed against real national liberation struggles. For example, I have abandoned my background as a Protestant, I could never claim a baptist, a methodist, a quaker nation, and its right to self-determination or while I may be Protestant on a certain limited culural level (not shared by all methodists) such as my name, obviously comes from the bible, I could never claim that I was member of the "christian nation",( actually I could but that would be pretty egotistical and chauvenistic of me).

Anyway, I think that one doesn't have to be an atheist to really enjoy the piece below, and I hope this helps to help liberate some Zionist-Occupied brains in the Zionist-controlled left in a Zionist Occupied Government fighting a Zionist Proxy war.

---John Paul Cupp

************************************************************

Madalyn Murray-O'Hair, whatever her other faults, was
not afraid to criticize Judaism or Zionism. I shall
illustrate this by reprinting a portion of a
question-and-answer session at which she presided at
Georgetown, Texas in 1982:

S [Student Question]: I am a Jew and an Atheist. Your
discussion tonight seems to exclude me from the ranks
of atheists. Are you an anti-Semite?

A [Dr. O'Hair's answer]: How could I be an anti-Semite
when I support the Palestinians, all of whom are
Semites? Judaism is a religion and one of the most
pernicious that was ever developed. The Old Testament
is one which records the doings of a vicious,
sadomasochistic god and the small barbarian tribe
which attached itself to this particularly ugly,
brutal tribal deity. Judaism, Old Testament-based, has
not one redeeming feature. Atheists are those persons
who are free from religion. For a person to say they
are Roman Catholic and Atheist, or Lutheran and
Atheist, or Muslim and Atheist, or Jewish and Atheist
is a contradiction in terms as well as a confusion of
both ideology and loyalty. I recognize that the Jew
often claims affiliation to an ethnic group. In a
sense, I could too; my clan is Irish. But, that
distinction fades to nothing since my clan, my tribe,
has been in the United States since the early 1600s.
Atheists do not distinguish ethnic groups of special
origin, or separate features. We do not set aside
blacks as unique and to be handled differently, or
blue-eyed blonds, or American Poles, or Irish, or
Italian. The doors of American Atheists are open only
to those who abandon religion, whatever brand it may
be. Our doors are not open to those persons who have
not severed their ties to Judaism. Yes, you are
excluded from the ranks of Atheists when you profess
to be a Jew. Everything uniquely "ethnic" about the
Jew is religious. Bar mitzvah is a religious rite. The
celebration of Passover is a religious rite. The
distinctive calendar is religiously based. The
peculiar diet is derived from god. The mutilation of
the penis of the young male is a Bible directive. The
exclusivity claimed by the group is the cultural lag
of being the chosen people. All of this is a little
sick.

S: Are you saying that the Jews also have no right to
a homeland?

A: If you were born and reared in the United States,
this is your homeland. I wish to speak to that also,
for I think that there is an obvious violation of the
principle of state/church separation. If one is a Jew,
and only if one is a Jew, does one have the right of
dual citizenship with a theocracy--Israel. If one is a
Roman Catholic, one does not have the right of dual
citizenship with another theocracy-- the Vatican. As a
person of Irish heritage, I cannot have dual
citizenship with both Ireland and the United States. I
am bound by geographical accident of birth to be a
citizen of the nation in which I was physically born.
With the Jews it is otherwise, by legislative
enactment of our U.S. Congress. The underlying reason
for this is so that the Jewish citizenry in our nation
may freely transfer funds to, as well as have
unhindered traffic with, that theocracy. I shudder to
think of custom regulations which appertain. Every
time that a Jew sends money to Israel, that Jew can
take a write-off on his 1040 tax return--and I resent
it since that increases my personal tax. The
constitution of the state of Israel and the Israeli
Supreme Court both designate this nation as a
theocracy. The small Atheist organization of former
Jews, which struggles for existence in Jerusalem, is
under many restrictions because of this. Citizenship
has been denied to children whose fathers are Jewish
but whose mothers are Gentile, only on that basis,
since "Jewishness" is transmitted through the female.
Not only is this an insult to our intelligence, it is
an accommodation to the Jewish religion which is
violative of every idea flowing from our First
Amendment. Those persons who are Jew first and
American second should not even ask for citizenship in
our nation. They have chosen their homeland; their
place is with it. We feel the same with the Irish, the
Poles, the Russians, the Finns, the Iranians. If they
love "their country," let them go there and make
improvements. We are Americans fighting for
improvements in our homeland. American Atheists are
inalterably opposed to a theocracy in the United
States, in Mexico, in South America, in Canada, in
England, France, the Philippines, Egypt, Iran, or
Lebanon. We are equally opposed to the theocracy of
Israel, the military of which receive $3 billion a
year from the United States. The Jew bases his claim
to Israel on the Bible. Atheists see this as being
absurd. After a short period of settlement there, the
Jew was driven from the land by the Romans in A.D. 70.
No people can claim as a homeland an area which has
not been occupied by them for 1880 years.

Source: All the Questions You Ever Wanted to Ask
American Atheists With All the Answers, by Jon Murray
and Madalyn O'Hair, American Atheist Press, 1982, p.
222-224.
You miss the point 10.Aug.2004 10:31

Mike stepbystpefarm <a> mtdata.com

"I could never claim a baptist, a methodist, a quaker nation, and its right to self-determination or while I may be Protestant on a certain limited culural level (not shared by all methodists) such as my name, obviously comes from the bible, I could never claim that I was member of the "christian nation"

No, of course not, for the very simple reason that Chrisitianity is not a "tribal religion" but a "universalist" religion, claiming in fact, to be the only valid religion (and of course the various Christian demoninations argue among themseleves whihc of them is the true faith).

On the other hand, it's NOT "silly" for Judaism because Judaism is a "tribal religion", one very intimately connected to its tribe. You CANNOT join the religion without being adopted into the tribe and tribal descent is broken by after a generation or two by removal from the tribal religion to another (simply not observing doesn't do that).

This is not simply like a case where an entire tribe is of one religion but not one specific to that tribe (other people follow that religion while belonging to different tribes or none). This is also not simply "nationhood" considered in terms of the political state as many/most tribal peoples are organized on a pre nation state basis and may or may not be territorial. Many "nations" (in the sense meant now) might be broken up into multiple political units and likewise political units made up of many "nations".

fuck this 10.Aug.2004 11:14

eek

John Paul Cupp has already been exposed as a neo-nazi. Seriously, don't take his (flame) bait; ignore him. He just wants attention.


Mods... if you could compost this, I thank you in advance.

"exposed" 10.Aug.2004 13:01

Tony Blair's dog

"John Paul Cupp has already been exposed as a neo-nazi"

Has he? When and by whom?

"Seriously, don't take his (flame) bait..."

That's an odd statement since the only flame bait seems to be your post.

Athiest and Jewish? Damn right. 10.Aug.2004 14:53

Yea, I am an Athiest and a Jew!

This whole premise seems bizarre. Of course you can be an Athiest and a Jew! I am a Jew because I am the daughter of a Jewish woman (cultural heritage defines a matrilineal line) and although I may not agree with the Jewish religious upbringing I had...I most certainly help define who I am culturally by my Jewish heritage and customs I share with other Jews. I think alot of non-Jews don't realize there are Jewish people who identify as religious, & cultural Jews and those that just identify as cultural Jews.
Go to a cultural Jewish event ...versus a religious one...and find many athiests and agnostics, like yourself.
Athiest Jew

me too: atheist jew 10.Aug.2004 16:15

me too

seriously i think like 25% of jews are atheist jews.
well, i exaggerate, just kidding, but I am one also and there are so many of us.
while I rolled with a lot of christian judgementalism as I was growing up (my friends in tears being like: "oh god you're going to hell and i have to save you") it was waaay harder when everytime I tried to explain that I'm an athiest and a jew people felt cool to straight out deny that possibility.

um SORRY. Judaism has all sorts of cultural pieces: food, languages, dances, literature, etc etc
and dammit my family celebrates that stuff!

ps. free palestine

From John Paul 10.Aug.2004 17:06

John Paul Cupp anti_imperialist_solidarity@yahoo.com

1. How does the clear fact that Tribalism and exclusivism of Judahism give it a NATIONAL status? You don't have to convince me that Judahism is based on outmoded and exclusivist tribalist ideas ( like monothesism in general but more glaringly).

2. Do you suggest that an askenazic ( or child of an ashkenazic) have a common "jewish" culture with a "jew" in africa, or of an Arab Jew ( and you will note that the general attitude on the street was arab nationalists of such jews for a considerable period of time). The Culuture of the Askenazic in Poland or the Hasidic in Poland is obviously Polish in nature, definative from the culture of a jew in north africa, whichever "tribe" such Jew comes from.

3. Do you suggest the askenazic of poland shares a common economic life, or if not now, historically shares an economic life not with other Poles, but with a "jew" in Africa or asia or New York. Other than "israel" ( which by recognizing having a valid identity slams the door on the rights of the arabs to unification and self-determination) and of course their is semi-cartel like attitude, forgive the crude description, but frankly, a syndicate, like structure to zionism, beyond this is their an economic life in between the the eniter world's Jewry ? No their is not. Has their historically been, at least one, which all "tribes" which encompas this pseudo-nation share in common? No their is not.

Again on the one hand we hear from the "anti-zionist" zionist about the dangerousness of vulger conspiracy on the nature of jewishness, of international conspiracies, etc, but this common economic life is one of five variables necassary to be answered in the affirmative, in order for the pseudo anti-zionist
( because a jews who claims they are a jew by "nationality" is by definition a zionist, perhaps a nice fascist)jew to claim their jewishness is national. So then which way is it, exactly? Essentially do you wish to uphold a cartel in order to claim a common economic life, unless of course you suggest a common economic life is not necassary for a common nationality, and then on this note please provide reasoning for such.

4. Do you suggest that this "jewish" shares a historical common language?
I think we all agree that this is far from the case, even before the interesting but secondary question of if askenazics, are even "semites" ( the old Khazar debate, we'll save that for later).

5. Do you suggest that this Jewish "nation" shares a common and definable geographical boundry? This also clearly goes against history.

In short as to be a "jew" is strictly religious and not national, because it matches none, let alone all 5 of the necassary requirements, it is incorrect to say that a Jew can also be an atheist ( or zoroastrian/ Hare Krishna for that matter). An atheist Jew IS A ZIONIST. A Jew that claims they have a common national identity is upholding zionist ideals, at their very root.

It is shown by history that their have been "jews" who took progressive stances were they lived. It has been proven that people who flat out practice judahism, have been anti-zionist. It has been proven that people with "big noses" ( and other pseudo-racial, usually offense "jewish characteristics" of the fascist eugenics variety) and "jewish sounding last names" or with "jewish" mothers, have been anti-zionist, but never a "jew" that is a member of an illusionary nationality, for they are egoists.

One poster suggest says as follows "Yea, I am an Athiest and a Jew!" but then I ask even if their are some customs, ( though the question of if they mark a national level and customs not shared by all world's jewry) etc, which you share


Where's the Hebrew Hammer when you need him? 10.Aug.2004 17:11

Nikolai

It seems that mr. cupp wants to blame one group of humans for the woes of everyone else. All of his posts are "jew this and jew that." His defenders and sympathizers neglect to notice that his rhetoric echoes that of the church of the creator, the kkk and other fanatical quasi neo nazi groups. Sure, he doesn't hate palestinians, but the hate in is heart is real. It is the core of his "message".
Troll or not, he has absolutely nothing new to say. Please compost.

Sure,he doesn't hate palesetians.... 10.Aug.2004 23:50

But, he should, right?

I have been following the feed, and everytime you claim this person right, you claim him as an antisemtite (but he likes the palestinians) a nazi (but he likes the islamic state) a problem (but only when he proves himself). Sure, he doesn't hate the palestinians.. ..and you do(?)

If you're not with us, you're composted 11.Aug.2004 08:58

+-

Yes, please compost because I don't like the messenger, therefore I won't debate the message. Plus, I think that this should be a closed website that only like minded people should chat on. Please compost because I don't want the words that JP Cupp posts to hurt my little eyes and I don't want free speech to infect my little brain. Not only do I want this for myself, but I demand it for everyone else because I said so and I obviously speak for everyone.
(insert temper tantrum here)
On another note, you cannot be a neo-nazi and defend Palestinians. They probably would not allow it because they (the Palestinians) are too colored (a term they would use, not me) or too islamic or something and I don't think that neo-nazi discriminate by region on that issue. This is not hate, this is a difference of opinion. There is nothing in the article that promotes hurting or killing or dismembering, etc. It's not like he is advocating bulldozing houses or shooting people or displacing them in the name of a religion that pretends to be an nationality or something. Now, that would be hate speech.

Sorry, no can do 11.Aug.2004 09:15

TRUE atheist

You cannot be an atheist and a jew. You either denounce religion or you participate in religion or you pretend to participate in religion. This is not specific to jewishness. Similarly, you cannot be a catholic, hindu, or a wiccan and be an atheist. If a wiccan celebrates customs and traditions that are wiccan (whatever those are) but claims they are not a wiccan, they are confused. If a jew participates in jewish customs (whatever that means), organized or not, with other jews or not, they are a practicing jew. It also speaks volumes about a religion that people claim is part of their identity and then claim they are atheists. Quit tarnishing the good name of practicing atheists by clouding the ideal with religion.

#3 11.Aug.2004 09:31

John Paul Cupp

Dear All,

Its nice seeing that what I have been trying to get through for a couple years is starting to register.

In essense, the ILLUSIONARY "jewish" nationality is at the core of the Zionist polemic, because if such is a Nationality the "it is a nation without land" or "nation (pseudo) with a right to self determination ( which a religious group does not have) like anyother "nation".

That the Jews do not constitute a nationality is well documented. It also is not until the last 100 year or so that most of Europes Ashkenazics came to this conclusion.

For example, many of the "jewish" bolshevik ( it would be more correct to say they had jewish last names, because I do not think many of them related to their "jewishness" on a national or even religious semi-cultural level) took the exact polemic as Marx "on the Jewish Question".

This stuff here inthe United States is CRAP.

Essentially, the overwhelming majority of "jewish" groups in this country are at the tail end, the slowest aspect of the dialectic to move against zionism and "israel". Their positions suck and suggest that fighting a settler colonialism phenomenom or a qualitative and quantitative strenthening force for the fascism in power of our era,ionism and its entity("Israel" is also the fastest growing strengthening force for "globalization") that when such involves KILLING JEWS (EVEN IF THEY ARE OBJECTIVELY SETTLER COLONIALIST AND FASCISTS) we are to take an approach of tieing one hand behind our back and "playing by the rules" as was never demonstrated by militant anti-imperialists and anti-fascists in WW2, Algeria, Korea, China, Vietnam, Southern Africa's anti-Apartheid, etc.


Essentially, we learn from the history of national liberation struggles in the periphery ( and Palestine is an Arab Regional Unit not simply a nation on its own)that ARMED STRUGGLE IS THE ONLY WAY TO DEFEAT COLONIALISM, AND THAT THE FULL NATIONAL-LIBERATION OF THE NATION REQUIRES
A. SOCIALISM
B THE EVENTUAL CULMINATION OF GUERRILLA WAREFARE

So in short as long as one takes crappy stances on Palestine, they can run around with a Che T-Shirt and patronize their little fake "jewish" nationality while supporting this or that of the obscure and illrelevant.

To "Me too" 11.Aug.2004 09:42

John Paul Cupp

You said:

"um SORRY. Judaism has all sorts of cultural pieces: food, languages, dances, literature, etc etc
and dammit my family celebrates that stuff! "

Your missing the point though, and that is that these elementary level of cultural points are NOT shared by world jewry. Again the jew of africa, regardless of sect, does not share a common culture with the Ashkenazic of Poland.

Their are thousands, no MILLIONS of people who are secular/ not christian/agnostic/ atheist who celebrate semi-christian cultural aspects, have christian names, live uder (judeo)-christian (all be it secular) law, et etc.

Their are millions of people whose religious outlook on the creator (or lack of) is very much in transition, with a great deal of mobility to move this way or that way.

It is not the job of the dialectic to determine what is in someone's heart ( and I suspect on matters of faith often this are strong mixed emotios) on the otherhand IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO BE 100% AN ATHEIST AND A JEW.

What the hell is the "Hebrew Hammer"? 11.Aug.2004 09:59

TRUE atheist

Is it fake jewishness or fake atheism? It seems that the self identification as a jew (to the point of defending the religion) is stronger than the identification as an atheist. I don't see anyone defending the "atheist question". My question to those that identify as both is, why? Why become an atheist? It seems like that would be supporting a secular nation state in Isreal. Isreal has the "right" to nationality under the current laws because of a religious history, right? I am not saying they should, but isn't that what the nation is based on, a former jewish history? If jews are denouncing their religion than what supports their claim to that land? You can't have it both ways. I really like Brazil, but I can't take it over in the name of my atheist "rights" or because I had relatives that lived there many years ago that were colonialized and displaced.

there IS no message. 11.Aug.2004 10:25

eek

Does the phrase "hate speech" mean anything anymore?

Seriously. Take the original post, substitute "mexican" or whatever for "jew", and you have hideous racist garbage. It would be composted immediately. But no, pass it off as pro-Palestinian, and it stays up.

Speaking of passing racism as pro-Palestinian... many racists call themselves "separatists", and defend Palestine and the Middle East as an ethnic homeland where, in their heads, all Arabs should be forcibly deported and any half-Arab biracial children killed. If nothing else, it gives Zionists ammunition to paint all anti-Zionists with one brush. I'm sure that isn't what you want, is it?

If JPC isn't a neo-nazi or KKK, I can't possibly be that off. Look at his previous posts. Look at what he is saying. How can you possibly defend him? This isn't a first-amendment battle!


Mods... do you want to know WHY Indymedia has such a bad reputation? It's because you allow bullshit like this to continue. If you didn't have such indefensible double standards, people would actually respect this resource, instead of writing it off as a nest of conspiracy theorists and hatemongers. Your job is to weed this garbage out; by leaving it in, you show tacit agreement with it. I'm sorry, but that is what happens. The burden is on you to prove otherwise.

The last thing is... if I were to write an article about, say, Tikkun, and it didn't have any real content to it, how quickly would it get composted?

This is not a battle 11.Aug.2004 12:44

+-

It is a discussion. Just because you don't agree with some of the viewpoints does not make it hate speech. I have read this persons posts before and this one does not contain hate speech. I believe the topic is how some jews can be atheists and what constitutes jewish culture, etc. If you would like to address that issue, answer the question.


You shouldn't base a decision to compost by previous posts, it should be done on a case by case standpoint. If posts have to be relevent, then who gets to decide that? What if the moderators don't think that your viewpoint is relevent, you would not have it. This post does not contain advocating violence against jewish people, palestinians, or atheists.
I didn't realize that IMC had a bad reputation, first I have heard of it. Or, maybe that is just what you would like to see.

TO "eek" 11.Aug.2004 14:24

John Paul Cupp

The Original palestinian charter, Marx, Lenin, most "jews" prior to hertzel, and many social scientist suggest that Jewishness is not national. You consistantly suggest that this is the same as esentially white supremacists suggesting they suffer from reverse discrimination. PROVE IT!

I have clearly spelled out the five qualitities of a nationality, and have not suggested any of these nationalities are superior or inferior, perhaps you, who suggest that a jew is a member of a nationality, COULD CLARIFY WHY THIS IS IN A PRINCIPLED HISTORICAL/SCIENTIFIC/ DIALECTUAL AND SCHOLARLY WAY RATHER THAN WHINING ABOUT IT.

Also when have I advocated support for armed resistance to jews, that were not acting as settler colonialists or as the reserves of settler colonialists BY DIRECT INTENT AND DESIGN? With Such being the case, what then is special about an occupier, except to be openly admiting that you feel a fasicst who is ( or just so happens to be) "Jewish" should be treated differantly from a Goyim Fascist! Isn't this actually YOUR CHAUVENISM ACTING AS A STRENGTHENING FORCE FOR THE FASCISM IN POWER OF OUR ERA AND NOT MINE?

Here again we see what is behind the basis of a Jewish "nation". Racism, Zionism, Elitism, False Propoganda, and Dictatorship tactics against valid historical/sociological study.

We see that the real answer to the Jewish question, is not national, but rather their integration as workers, in the nations to which they were born or peaceable immigrate to, as is the answer to the buddist question, or the catholic question, or the shia question, or the agnostic question? That their are quarters calling themselves a nation, AT THE EXPENSE OF REAL NATIONS is an arrogant act which in our era is no minor problem.It is a strengthening force for fascism and it is the height of egoism.

"Eek" who goest out of her/his way to accuse me of being a racist and a fascist to hide their own chauvenism, fails to show by concrete example and in detail were their is evidence of this EVER.

Death to "israel" and all that it stand for!

It's CIA dis-info 11.Aug.2004 14:38

Bob 2

Its CIA dis-infonformation made to look Palestinian, made to look crypto-Nazi, made to look communist, made to look IMC, etc.

funny 11.Aug.2004 14:46

clamydia

I thought a Jew was someone who was descended from the semitic race of people enslaved by the ancient Egyptians, and later briefly assimilated by the Romans. The religion, as far as I have ever known, was always a secondary thing. I always thought that the cultural qualities of being a Jew transcended the religious. Do you have any proof that Jews are not a legitimate race? Hitler sure seemed to think that they were, as do they themselves. And, you can't deny that certain physical features do tend to manifest themselves in a large proportion of Jews--larger, more hooked noses in men, dark hair, dark eyes. This would tend to suggest that there's more to being a Jew than religion. I could be wrong, and I'd love to learn otherwise if I am, so let me have it!

Fadlullah on Anti-Semitism 11.Aug.2004 14:56

sjodrfgqya890rvh

Jumada'II 16, 1425H / August 3, 2004 A.D.


"Persecution" of Arabs and Jews in Europe






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Stand

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Sayyed Fadlullah: Calls for cooperation between Arabs and Jews against anti-Semitism is a political ploy and a propaganda campaign


Asked in his weekly seminar the following question: How do you view the calls for cooperation between Arabs and Jews against anti-Semitism?

The Religious Authority, Sayyed Muhammad Hussein Fadlullah, said:

Many might be ignorant of the fact that anti-Semitism is something that concerns the Arabs in the first place since they constitute the vast majority of the Semites, despite the fact that the European language does not differentiate between Semites and Jews.

In any case, the term (anti-Semitic) carries a lot of connotations that demonstrate that certain Western thinkers had a racial mentality that discriminated against certain civilizations. What is more dreadful is that several Western thinkers have given the issue a political dimension when they interpreted anti-Semitism to mean anti-Jewish.

We have seen how the Jews benefited from this notion and began to exaggerate all what they encountered including creating problems for Jews in several countries to drive them to immigrate to Palestine. As late as the 1950s, the Israeli government planted bombs in the Jewish neighborhoods in Iraq to force the Jews to immigrate and convince them that they are being persecuted.

We call upon the Arabs and Muslims to be aware of all the Zionist political and media plots, including those that talk about a discrimination against the Arabs in the West which creates a favorable atmosphere for a Jewish-Islamic cooperation to confront it.

This serves the Israeli interests as it suggests that there is a chance for reconciliation and cooperation to confront mutual threats. We do not accept this analysis although we reject and oppose any cultural, racial and religious discrimination. Moreover, we have been subjected to the worst forms of discrimination with nobody in the West condemning it.

When we talk about respecting the other and accepting him, we are not merely paying lip service. Our history proves that we have done so and that we were tolerant to the others, including the Jews themselves.

Nevertheless, we have to be suspicious towards certain Zionist claims that suggest that there is a Western campaign targeting both the Arabs and the Jews having felt that they have become isolated or even exposed in their lies, whether before the ruling of the International Court of Justice concerning the racial wall or after it.

As Muslims, we support any call for a dialogue between religions, but not one that Israel could exploit politically. Israel is the biggest persecutor for Muslims, Christians and even some Jews. It is also the most anti-Semitic since they persecute the Semite Arabs.

The Problem lies in that the Arabs and Muslims who are being oppressed in their countries by the American and Israeli occupations, as well as being harassed in several European countries under the pretext of supporting terrorism. More importantly, they do not do anything to alleviate these pains. They do not wage a media and political campaign to demonstrate the persecution they are being subjected to, as minorities in several Western countries. Others are benefiting from our sufferings while we sit still and do not even voice our protest.

Fadlullah on Anti-Semitism [PDF]
Fadlullah on Anti-Semitism [PDF]

Yes... 11.Aug.2004 15:00

naczi operative

Yes...they do have more hooked k'noses don't they?

Made to look like IMC? 11.Aug.2004 16:08

+-

How does one counter such accusations? How does one "prove" they are not CIA or that they are a communist? So,if all of this is just plain disinformation, why don't you substanciate your claims with some evidence? How do you plan on proving this disinformation campaign? I am really in love with the "because I said so" way some people base their claims. This fingerpointing tactic is the oldest in the book and really detracts from the discussion (which is why it is used so damn often). I see opinions based on (some)facts presented by some of the posts, but not yours- and yours is the most accusatory.
Anyway..
Are African jewish people, Asian jewish people, and anglo jewish people going to share these same physical traits? I mean, just in general, I realize not everyone is going to look the same.

To Claymedia 11.Aug.2004 16:21

John Paul Cupp

1 You confuse the fact that their is a SUBSTAINAL DIFFERANCE BETWEEN RACE AND NATIONALITY. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING AND THEY ARE NOT SIMILAR

2.Jewishness is not based on race, either, or in fact is not race. In fact, "jews" include a number of races and mix of racism.

plus or minus 11.Aug.2004 17:37

eek

"Just because you don't agree with some of the viewpoints does not make it hate speech. I have read this persons posts before and this one does not contain hate speech."

What WOULD constitute hate speech, then?

Given the context of John Paul Cupp's frequent anti-Semitism (  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti_Semitism ), and his statements such as "kill them all", "send the jews back to Russia", "death to Israel" (I'm assuming he wants the people killed, not just to end the state), etc, this article he posted, in his mind justifies his hatred. If nothing else, it isn't relevant to anything at all.


"I believe the topic is how some jews can be atheists and what constitutes jewish culture, etc. If you would like to address that issue, answer the question."

Bullshit. This isn't a question. It's a statement wrapped in a lie, wrapped in a question. The statement is, "No Jews Allowed", and the lie is that even if a Jew doesn't believe in god, he still retains "Jewish ideas" or whatever. I'd draw the obvious conclusion, but y'know, Godwin's Law and all, you goddamn neo-nazi, you.

This is the same thing with the Zionist argument that Palestinians don't exist because there's no "Palestine". That too, is bullshit; just a way for them to wash their hands of the suffering inflicted upon those in the West Bank and elsewhere. Furthermore, the argument makes no sense whatsoever; it's designed to throw a monkey wrench into rational thought.


"You shouldn't base a decision to compost by previous posts, it should be done on a case by case standpoint."

The previous posts ARE relevant. Very, very relevant.

Even on its own, this thread should've been composted. What is it discussing, anyway? What is it relevant too? The only thing it is is bigoted. THOSE are grounds for composting; John Paul Cupp's previous posts only add to it.


"I didn't realize that IMC had a bad reputation, first I have heard of it. Or, maybe that is just what you would like to see."

Clever reversal, but I'm not having it.

IMC DOES have a reputation that preceeds it, here and elsewhere. There're plenty of posts where people have said as much, and the Israel IMC was even shut down because of content left up (ok, bad example, but still...)

By the way. Acting all calm in the face of my incoherency (I get that way) doesn't work if you can't keep JPC from flying into a frothing rage, too.

so because you say it is so, then it is so? 11.Aug.2004 17:39

clamydia

Why is it then that people (in this country at least) who identify as jewish seem to share similar physical characteristics and have similar-sounding last names? If being a jew was *just* about religion, then this wouldn't be the case.<p>
To "naczi operative": Just because I notice a pattern doesn't make me a nazi, or a naczi, or whatever.

To Clymedia #2 11.Aug.2004 17:52

John Paul Cupp

First of all,

the pseudo racial characteristic of "jews" as you suggest are not traits held by a "jew" outside of eastern Europe and western asia. Most of these are ashkenazics who trace their lineage to turkish/tatar/Khazar/slavic peoples, hence they share many of the same characteristics. Also judahism is not a religion you can join in the sense of christianity and islam or hare krishas,etc. Essentially its clickish, and tribalistic, but this hardly makes it a nationality or a race.

Jews come in multiple races and combos.

Jews also are not a nationality because they do not meet ANY let along all 5 of the necassary requirements to be a nationality. In fact certain quarters of Judahism the idea of a jewish nationality is considered heresy.


Lets look at the Puerto Ricano, who could be from a white, black, white-black, "mestizo"(a crappy term but you know what I mean), native/indeginious, and about a million combonations. A chinese could immigrate to Puerto Rico and marry another chinse immigrant to puerto rico and their children would be puerto ricans.
Even of an oriental race, their child would be certainly a spanish speaking puerto rican, who destiny likes with puerto rico.
In essence, race and nationality are nowere near the same. This is often why well meaning leftists objectively take racist positions and why are always of the opinion that I am a racist or a fascist or whatever.

For example,before the Zionification of Arab Soil, even during the british mandate, most jews in Palestine considered themselves arabs. The Original Palestinian Charter stands by the Arab Identity of Palestine, not based on religious sectarianism but national heritage and inalienable right. Their are jews who are anti-zionist arab nationalists (though at the moment I admit not a whole lot)

AND
their are those who come from "jewish" background, have "jewish sounding" last names, traditional character traits attributed to european ashkenazics, who do not consider themselves jews, wheither because they converted to islam, to atheism, simply do not identify with "jewishness, whatever. I am not calling on the jew to abandon their jewish identity, but that one can, exposes that it is not a physical character trait as a race, nor a nationality, for one does not have to migrate to not be a jew, and if a jew moves to a differant nation, they are still a jew if they do not abandon judahism.

On "kill them all" and other accusations 11.Aug.2004 17:59

John Paul Cupp

It has been allegead by Eek that I have called for killing all jews or randomly killing all jews, can you referance when this was said please?

Can eek clarify if they believe it is also racism to support armed resistance to other forms of settler colonialism, and brutal occupation were the occupiers subscribed to a differant religion besides judahism. Is death to nazism, aimed at killing ethnic germans?

Now then "israel" is a settler colonial entity based on a theocracy and fascism/racism, I do not recognize its right to exist. How is this a hate crime( unless you mean "hate-fascism crime")?

I'm not having it! 11.Aug.2004 19:02

alpha delta

"I'm not having it"?
I have not heard anything about PDX IMC having a "reputation" for anything but providing a place for people to debate, discuss, and organize. But you would not know that because you do not know me. I am not a neo-nazi, not that I can prove it to you on the internet. Not that I would if I could prove it to you on the internet since I don't feel you really deserve some kind of proof of my identity. What is wrong with you anyway? I just want some kind of explaination as to the jewish/atheist combination because I am curious as to how they can both exist simatainously. I am curious as to the differences between religion and nationality. Gee, if we just delete Cupp's postings can we continue to discuss the issue? Is that ok? I haven't even said I agree with the original posting! I am also tired of all the stupid, reactionary, fingerpointing among people that can't back up their accusations. I really could care less about previous posts by JP Cupp because I am not discussing previous posts. I am attempting to discuss this issue. The orignial article was not even written by Cupp, but I suppose that is a compost for another day, right? Because you're not having it.

Islam recognizes Jews as a Nationality 11.Aug.2004 20:06

majdur

Islam recognizes Jews as a nationality or alternatively as an ethnic group. Just as Americans are a nationality based on either an accident of birth, or a national pride (coupled with a legal enactment), so too are Jews a nationality either by birth or by adoption of the national pride (along with a legal enactment).

It hardly matters whether Jews come from many different racial backgrounds or even if they are athiest or religious. The question of athieism or religion is really a question of an individual's priorities. Some people rank religion as the highest priority and therefore propound their Jewishness upon the firm practice of the religion, others do not regard religion as the highest priority, but, instead, place national pride to the front and religion into the background. Still others reject religion altogether and form their personal identity from camaradrie and national history. Just as many Christian Americans may regard themselves as athiests, many still put up Christmas trees and schmooz with the family during the holidays. Some only practice Christianity during the holidays, just as some Muslims only practice Islam during Ramadan and some Jews only practice Judaism during Rosh Hashanah, still other Jews in fact use the High Holy Days to assert their anti-religiosity. Some Muslim and Christians may in fact do the same.

Christianity, unlike Judaism and Islam, does not have a doctrine of national identity. Both Judaism and Islam claim that the members of their respective religions belong to a nation, or one human family. Every Muslim is obliged to refer to every other Muslim as "brother" or "sister". Unlike Judaism, Islam was also an empire. At one time Islam was a conglomeration of many nations. The vicissitudes of history, however, destroyed the Islamic nation and the concept of nationaly unity within Islam which we see being politically exerted at this time by the Wahabists like Osama bin Laden and the Hizb ut-Tahrir, inter alios. Judaism, as we all know, has had its national resurgence.

At any rate, it isn't the question of race or identity or even nationality that deprives the Zionists a claim to Palestine, but the legal doctrine of "ancient claim". Since the Jews were dispersed by the Roman Emperor Titus who conquered Jerusalem and destroyed the Second Temple in 70 CE and remarked "Judea est Kaput!" (Judea is finished!) upon his return to Rome. Thus there was no Jewish kingdom in Judea, or Palestine, in 638 when the Caliph Omar, the second Caliph of Islam (Islam was a nation then) conquered Jerusalem from Byzantium. Thus the Jewish kingdom had been non-existent for 620 years when the Mosque of Omar (Dome of the Rock) was built in 690 CE and 1878 years between the Roman conquest of Jerusalem and the Zionist invasion in 1948. Thus Islam held sway over Palestine for 1310 years before the Zionist invasion. On these grounds do Muslims assert an "ancient claim" to dominion in Palestine, not that other religions can't be there too. In fact we welcome them on religious grounds, but politically not. Thus it isn't a question of Jewish nationality at all, but one of war, conquest and ancient claim.

That's a thumbnail at least.