Forest Defense Training Camp @ Straw Devil timber sale

you mean straw devil is actually hostingan all genders action camp. WOW! is this a miracle, is this real. can it be true?

Earth to Holy Moly:

Straw devil has had men living at it since the very beginning - alongside and in support of the womyn and trans folks. Likewise in-town in Eugene.

The only thing the Womyn and trans folks at straw devil have done is create an all womyn and trans space in 1 unit of the the timber sale - Unit 6 and actively publize training events and action camps that they have organized, JUST LIKE every other public direct action site does.

They still come to group meetings with the men, they still talk to men during the rest of their life outside unit 6. For this - creating a womyn and trans only learning environment, they are constantly harrassed by people calling them sexist, femi-nazis, oppressive to men, seperatists, etc.

I for one fully support what they're doing, and in general support folks doing whatever they need/want to do to make activism a more happy and meaningful experience for themselves, as long as it doesn't consist of hurting others in some measurable way.

I applaud them for bringing through dozens of new activists monthly into the eco-movement -- arguably more than any single semi-cohesive entity in the radical earth activist movement in the whole country.

Obviously there has been something behind their reasons for doing it!

If you've got the plan for doing something more effective I'm waiting to see it materialize beyond the realm of criticism and into the realm of on-the-ground action.

well, all i was doing was commenting on the fact that this is the first published cross gender action camp to be announced in over a year. i just thought it was cool that one was finally going down. you all seem to have alot of anamosity toward anyone questioning your methods and actions. and that in itself tells me something.
i have seen some posts talking about other methods and ideas but they always get attacked by the likes of you and yours. so maybe many people are just saying forget it, it aint worth the trouble trying to work with people whose ears are deaf to criticism. much like the current regime in charge of the western world.
it is much easier to discount the questions as blind to what you all call the truth then it is to actually address the wuestions and work toward a solution.

i actually tried to post a positive comment about my happiness at seeing this event going on at the cascadiarising site, but of course it was censored.

There's been a ton of cross-gender action camps over the last year. I guess you just haven't seen them. For example, there was the one last weekend at Mt. Hood. Then there was the Regional Rendezvous a few weeks ago. I don't know what to say about your singular focus on women's only action camps. You've posted so many comments on cascadiarising.org about these camps, you obviously feel very excluded.

Anyway, in expressing your happiness, you mighta gotten carried away, because you didn't post a comment to our site, you posted an article. We do a lot of work to funnel articles into appropriate topics about groups, forest issues, even art, but I'm sorry, happiness isn't one of them yet. If you'd posted that as a comment to an article, we would've left it, but because we have a moderated article-posting system, someone woulda had to put it somewhere for it to show up, and we just didn't have the place for it. So, sorry, but we're trying to get important news out there.

Thimble
Cascadia RiSiNG! EcoDefense

well i ahve mainly been commenting about events in the eugene area. since this seems to be the area that is most stratified when it comes to gender. originally i was very concerned about the situation and the media that was being presented about the whole gnder thing. but then after seeing the reactions to my posts and the posts of others i began to realize that there is defintitely a hidden agenda with these woman/trans only events. i dont know that agenda and whenever anyone begins to question it they are either attacked personally or they questions are ignored. now i just post because i am bored and it is interesting to observe your extreme reactions.
i guess this is kind of juvenile, but then again i feel that the tactics and arguements posed by you and yours are also quite juvenile.
it isinteresting that a bunch of people who hate modern society, technology, and tools of western medicne completely support transsexuality which to me is the apex of western medicine at its most extreme.....hmmmm. but then of course there are many contradictions in your tactics and methods.
oh well i guess you all can run off and talk about how big of a jerk that person whose been posting for the last year is now.
oh and have fun liasoning with the eugene police dept.

I'm guessing the "hidden agenda" is at least in part that womyn don't want to work with aggresive, dominating men who don't have an understanding of patriarchy.

It's one thing if you think there are other ways to work through the patriarchy in our culture, but if you can't understand/respect why womyn or trans genedered people might want a womyn and transgender only space, you don't have an understanding of patriarchy, gender oppression, and sexism. Period.

Would you be telling an all african-american activist caucus meeting to deal with racism issues within the movement that they were racist for not letting you in or had a "hidden agenda"? I think most folks with the slightest knowledge of how racism works on the ground would agree that YOU would be the racist in that situation.

It is in part BECAUSE because of people like the person above that folks sick of gender oppression want autonomous spaces.

When womyn are still being critized for trying to exert their freedom to organize with their comrades in a way that addresses their own oppression, who can blame them for wanting seperate spaces?

you people with never see that by adopting the tools and methods of the oppresors you do not solve anything. and yes i think that any group who excludes antother group based of of something that they cannot control, i.e. race, gender, sexual orientation, etc are not working toward equality and freedom. they are working towards seperatiwm. plain and simple. why is it racist for a group of whites to exclude blacks, but okay for a group of blacks to exclude whites? why is it okay for women to exclude men but oppresion for men to exclude women. THIS IS HYPOCRASY you fools.
so for the last year i have just been trying to get you all to at least question and look at your actions from the outside, but it is obvious now that you do not want to be questioned and that you will not take an objective look at your actions.
so forget it, it aint worth my time anymore.
you can mark me down as a supporter that you have lost. and yes i really was a supporter. i believe in equality for all, not just a select group, and not equality where others are excluded in anyway. i know this is idealism and it is apparent that this world is not ready for true equality for all. it is still caught in the web of clicks, special groups, and special priviledge.
come look me up when your minds open and you grow up

The NW Pacific forests are in mortal danger, and all you can do is squabble about a womyn's encampment? You will never defeat the logging interests if you don't learn to work with male activists. What about the women activists who don't want to work with "aggressive" and "dominating" womyn? Never underestimate the exploitative and oppressive power of the alpha female.

> so for the last year i have just been trying to get you all to at least question and look at your
> actions from the outside, but it is obvious now that you do not want to be questioned and that you
> will not take an objective look at your actions.

So if someone disagrees with your analysis and says so (which is all that was done above) it means "they do not want to be questioned and that they will not take an objective look at their actions".

What if someone has ALREADY heard and responded to criticisms of the sort you offer and decided they weren't of sufficient merit to negate the value in their actions? (This is what is commonly known as "disagreement").

The impression I'm getting (correct me if I'm wrong!) is that anything short of agreeing with you is not OK: how can we debate/dialogue when your responce to arguments is merely to shut down any debate and say "it is obvious you don't want to be questioned" and "it aint worth my time anymore" rather than responding to the criticisms of your criticism based on a concrete justification?

At no point has anyone said to YOU "it's obvious you don't want to be questioned" or "it isn't worth my time to argue with you" yet YOU say EXACTLY this! ("It aint worth the trouble trying to work with people whose ears are deaf to criticism") Who is it that isn't listening to whom here???

By accusing someone of "not listening" instead of responding to what they say you take the easiest way out. Indeed, people have responded to every thing you've written. They may not AGREE with anything you say, but you can't say they aren't listening.

I'm not afraid to hear your disagreement with my perspective and I'm not critizing you for disagreeing: I'm critizing your arguments, that is what debate is.

Likewise, you claim you're "open-minded" that the people here disagreeing with you are "close-minded". That's about the most close-minded statement I can imagine. Why not try articulating your case rather than making blanket, conversation-ending statements like this that are devoid of context or content?

You wanted dialogue? You've got it, now stop complaining that no one is listening to you!

Is that what you are looking for or are you looking for someone to just tell you you're right?
How about giving a point by point refutation of what I just wrote for starters?

I will not promise to agree with you, but I will promise to respond line to line to anything you write - that is the definition of dialogue, no?

Feel free to email me mahonianervosa__AT__yahoo.com or to continue on here......

> The NW Pacific forests are in mortal danger,

Womyn are in danger from rape, abuse and the daily forces of oppression. I for one am not willing to say one is less important than the other, so support folks working to stop both types of oppression.

> and all you can do is squabble about a womyn's encampment?

This isn't a squable about womyn encampment, it's discussion of how the environmental movement can 1) empower womyn and trans activists who for years have felt disempowered in the movement and 2) move beyond single-issue politics.

This is not a petty matter for many folks involved in the radical environmental movement.

> You will never defeat the logging interests if you don't learn to work with male
> activists.

Check your facts, this just isn't the case. The womyn at Straw Devil do work with male activists, they just don't work with them all the time or live with them when they are in the forest.

I've been there (in-town and in-forest), I've seen this first hand. Have you or is this hearsay?

> What about the women activists who don't want to work with "aggressive" and "dominating"
> womyn?

1. If this were the case a womyn can 1) raise this issue with the womyn she is working with, 2) raise the issue to conflict-resolution groups within the forest movement, 3) work with the mix-gendered camp at straw devil, or 4) work on a whole seperate campaign.

2. A group formed in part to specifically to address oppression issues (while by no means perfect or without problems) is likely to have a better chance of addressing this issues than a group that does not.

> Never underestimate the exploitative and oppressive power of the alpha female.

Surely, and no one is claiming this. I don't think anyone has said here that "womyn are never oppressive" or that "a woman cannot be as oppressive as a male". This is a staw-man argument.

Regardless, an "alpha female" does not have 1000's of years of gender superiority behind her back.

Do you really believe oppressive women are as much as a societal problem then oppressive men?
Are there not important and concrete differences in the way each is socialized?

If no, then why do you fail to see that there may be a need to address this problem in a specific way (as in some womyn may want to address it independent from how men do) rather than a general way (where everyone deals with it the same)?

Is race the same problem as class?
Is class the same problem as environmental oppression?

Would you agree with these sentiments:
"we should stop squabbling about race oppression...never underestimate the oppressiveness of a black man"
"we should stop squabbling about class oppression...never underestimate the oppressiveness of the working class"

then why say "we should stop squabbling about womyn's oppression...never underestimate the oppressive ness of a womyn"?

Again I ask the specific question (yet to be answered in a half-dozen articles about straw devil):
-- If there was an all-black encampment as a part of Straw Devil would you be saying the same thing?

yeah i really enjoy this discussion. its very intersting

mostly though i just want to go up, whens the next carpool from portland leaveing?

as sinbad has proven,

if yer an activist or organizer - and yer human - you should know about white/male privilige.

contact 503-493-7495 for carpool info or email action_at_cascadiarising.org

most likely friday and saturday for carpools but you should get in contact with us directly so we can keep you up-to-date.....

Maybe if less time was spent on criticizing and more on forest defense/ lack there-of/changing tactics/reconnecting with the earth through living with grandmama/not getting sick when the raccoon scat hits the north wind through ferns, maybe a unit 1, and 2 (not to mention 18, 19, 40, and 59) could have been delayed a little longer. Whatever happened to affinity groups that don't discuss there actions for security? It seems like, once again, people sacrifice personal safety for (granted false)security. I'm all for womens' space, rights, safety, and freedoms. Maybe some martial arts and self-defense for the whole community (men and women) would be a good idea. Good job to the folks who stuck it out, even with some dicontent among fellow (hopefully) Children of the Earth. I'm looking foreward to another fun and meaningful season of kicking butt.

GOT ASTHMA?
GOT WAR FOR OIL?
GOT TOXIC LOADING?
GOT GLOBAL WARMING?
GOT EXPENSIVE ENERGY COSTS?

Green, Health & Peace Activists: Tell auto makers to make cleaner air vehicles... for a healthier air future...

and practice random and planned acts of carlessnesshood...

FOR A MORE PEACEFUL AND HEALTHIER FUTURE: Whether we drive, drive large or small, drive much or little, or drive not at all, some things we can be doing while our government is out to lunch on environmental and energy values and issues:

Tell Auto Makers To Make Cleaner-Air Vehicles
 http://www.autobuyology.org/tellcarmakerstocleantheair.pdf

Sierra Club's Ford Motors Clean The Air Campaign
 http://whistler.sierraclub.org/action/?alid=169

National Resource Defense Council's Break the Oil Chain
Campaign
 http://www.nrdcaction.org/breakthechain/index.asp?step=2&item=1505Thank

Global Exchange & Rainforest Action Network's Ford Motors
Action
 http://www.JUMPSTARTFORD.com
 http://www.RAN.org/news/newsitem.php?id=686&area=home

Bluewater Network's Ford Motors Campaign
 http://www.bluewaternetwork.org

Union of Concerned Scientists Cleaner Vehicles Website
 http://www.ucsusa.org/index.cfm

Environmental Defense Clean Car Campaign
 http://www.cleancarcampaign.org


Car Deal Literacy For a Car Deal Clueless Auto Driven Society
 http://www.autobuyology.org/thankyouforteaching.pdf

Jump Start Ford: Tell Auto Makers to Make Cleaner Air Vehicles
 http://www.autobuyology.org/jsford2.pdf

For a saner, greener, & more peaceful future...

Rand Knox
Carlessnesshood 101 For Healthier Air, Planet & People
 http://www.autobuyology.org/

PS: Three existing technologies, if used extensively, would as much or more than double the gas mileage, and save consumers as much or more than three times what they would cost to install in new cars, light trucks and SUVs...
1. Continuously variable valves
2. Continuously variable transmissions
3. Integrated starter generators

These existing technologies do not require fuel adjustments, and may be adaptable to hybids and hydrogen fuel cell technologies down the road, if ever hydrogen fuel cell technologies proves to be economical and ecological.

GOT TOXIC LOADING?
GOT GLOBAL WARMING?
GOT ASTHMA?

Print, copy, post & share...
Encourage others to consider telling auto makers to make cleaner air vehicles... it's our future, it's our air... Make a better "Tell your car makers to make cleaner air vehicles" flyer and copy, post and share it...

A good time to continue this discussion would be at the action camp. I'm hoping to set aside time for a discussion on male privilege and deconstructing patriarchy. The goal is for us, as men, to take responsibility for the ways we have been socialized into an oppressive position in society, and to work w/ other men to make neccessary change. The discussion will be a place where us men can talk about ways in which we are sexist and benefit from male privilege. Hopefully discussions like these will become more regular w/in our movements so we can work toward creating a safer space for women.
don't forget to get in touch w/ action(at)cascadiarising.org for carpool info from Portland. Because I know about a few vehicles going.