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Santana Says USA = Racist For Ignoring Death of Elvin Jones

"I'm really embarrassed for this nation, and for MTV and VH1 and Rolling Stone, because it was a very racist thing not to acknowledge this most important musician when he passed," Santana said. "For them to (play up) Ozzy Osbourne and other corny-ass white people, but not Elvin, is demeaning and I'm really embarrassed to live in this country."

"When that intro comes in on 'A Love Supreme' it's like the gates of heaven opening," Santana, 56, said. "In fact, when I die, if I don't hear 'A Love Supreme,' I'll turn back; I'll know I'm in the wrong place. For me, Elvin was Número Uno, forever, for all ages, for all existence.

It is because he holds Jones in such high esteem that Santana was angry at the absence of media tributes to the masterful drummer, who was 76 when he died and kept performing until just weeks before his death.

The reason for the slight, Santana believes, is a matter of racial and cultural prejudice.

"Here in the U.S., it's embarrassing (how jazz is treated). People should be ashamed of themselves."
Elvin Ray Jones 1927 - 2004  (photo by Jos Knaepen)
Elvin Ray Jones 1927 - 2004 (photo by Jos Knaepen)
Carlos Santana: 'Elvin is the beat of life itself'

By George Varga
UNION-TRIBUNE POP MUSIC CRITIC
May 30, 2004
 http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/features/20040530-9999-1a30varga.html

A hippie at heart, Carlos Santana has long championed music as a potent force for creating positive vibrations that - as this veteran of the 1969 Woodstock festival puts it - "can change your molecular structure."

But the legendary rocker sounded uncharacteristically angry during a discussion about the recent death of one of his musical heroes, jazz drum icon Elvin Jones, who died May 18 of heart failure.

Santana, who will be honored in Los Angeles as the 2004 Latin Recording Academy Person of the Year on Aug. 30, is incensed that Jones' death elicited scant media coverage. He expressed his frustration during a recent interview from his San Rafael office.

"I'm really embarrassed for this nation, and for MTV and VH1 and Rolling Stone, because it was a very racist thing not to acknowledge this most important musician when he passed," said Santana, whose 1999 album, "Supernatural," won nine Grammys and has sold more than 25 million copies.

"For them to (play up) Ozzy Osbourne and other corny-ass white people, but not Elvin, is demeaning and I'm really embarrassed to live in this country."

The mustachioed guitarist and bandleader first heard Jones in 1965 on the John Coltrane Quartet's epic album "A Love Supreme," about a year after the teenaged Santana moved to San Francisco from Tijuana and became an American citizen. He was immediately struck by the force of the quartet's music and the impact of Jones' polyrhythmic drumming.

"When that intro comes in on 'A Love Supreme' it's like the gates of heaven opening," Santana, 56, said. "In fact, when I die, if I don't hear 'A Love Supreme,' I'll turn back; I'll know I'm in the wrong place. For me, Elvin was Número Uno, forever, for all ages, for all existence. I miss him
terribly; I've been playing his music nonstop since he died, especially 'Agenda' (from Jones' 1969 'Poly-Currents') with Joe Farrell (on sax). He was a supreme drummer who was doing things that were totally different than anyone else.

"When I hear Elvin's music I hear the pyramids, I hear African and pre-Columbian music, and I hear the future. Elvin is the beat of life itself, and his music transcends 'clever' or 'cute' or any superlatives.

When he and Coltrane played, and everyone else in the quartet dropped out, that's what Jimi Hendrix would play if he was still alive. That's what John McLaughlin wants to play, and he's alive, because there is nothing more pure or vibrant than Coltrane and Elvin."

It is because he holds Jones in such high esteem that Santana was angry at the absence of media tributes to the masterful drummer, who was 76 when he died and kept performing until just weeks before his death.

The reason for the slight, Santana believes, is a matter of racial and cultural prejudice.

"When Miles (Davis) died (in 1991), for four hours in France they stopped everything on TV and radio - all the regular programming - and just showed Miles for four hours, all through France," Santana recalled. "Here in the U.S., it's embarrassing (how jazz is treated). People should be ashamed of
themselves."

MTV and VH1 are virtually jazz-free, and the music has historically been held in much higher esteem abroad than here, in its homeland.

But Santana believes exceptions should be made for musicians as notable as Jones, who Pearl Jam drummer Matt Cameron hailed as "a major force to be reckoned with" who could "wow the pants off a jazz fan or non-jazz fan" alike.

"If I would've been running MTV, I would've stopped all the corny stuff they show and shown one of Elvin's (drum) solos. Because he represents the highest level of creativity, like Duke Ellington," Santana said.

"America is such an ignorant country. I understand that I'm hard on America, but if you look at all the (alarming) things on CNN, (you'll see) we need to grow up quickly. We need to crystallize our existence because we place economic values over spiritual ones.

"I'm hurt. And if I was a little hard or cruel with MTV and VH1, they deserve it. They need to stop showing what they are showing, and show real musicians. Why do they keep showing such stupidity? MTV needs to reassess its priorities."

homepage: homepage: http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/features/20040530-9999-1a30varga.html

Is he that freaky guy in that hippie western with joe walsh 04.Jun.2004 03:16

huh

Yeah it was like 4am and this far-out acid eating western came on, it had country joe and the fish, joe walsh, six guns, tumbleweeds, don johnson, and this freaky drummer dude with an awesome outfit that a can't remember too well. Hell it could be racism, I don't know- they gave it to us all with are parents breast milk, and i'm half african amerikan. He was a rad drummer though. If jazz was as popular as CRAPPY POP is today you'd have some creepy ass video's, really imagine putting mass marking, capitalist images to JAZZ.

Not racism 04.Jun.2004 03:54

no

We play up corny assed black people just like we play up corny assed white people. Um yeah, jazz doesn't get much attention, but some bluesmen are treated like Gods, and they are black. Jazz doesn't get much attention, and of jazz musicians, drummers get the LEAST attention... okay maybe trombone players get less.

Santana's upset because someone he thought the world of was ignored. There are all kinds of reasons people are ignored, but in this case it isn't race. A lot of people at MTV, VH1 and maybe even Rolling Stone don't really care about music anyway. Wake up Santana! Did you think it was about the music?

YES!! Damn you! It was racism and we are a racist psychopathic nation!! 04.Jun.2004 07:26

dse

"No" above is a typical honky racist in denial. The pResident is another typical honky racist in denial. The entire white culture of this psychopathic country is in denial and they will all now stand by each other and fight and resist being told that they are the most racist country in the world. And we are! Not only do we commit more genocide in the name of national interest than anyone else but we have made a big business of it and have combined racism with our capitalism to make the best form of fascism the world has ever seen. I hope Santana (against whom I have heard odious racist comments) begins to use this experience to wake up out of his own denial dream and to use his music to help transform this very sick country. The problem is that the white race is so inferior and inbred that it WILL fight consciousness of its inferiority and even go out to kill the rest in order to keep itself from being the bottom of the humanity barrel. Santana is right but he does not seem to know the extent to which he is right.1

The Problem Isn't Racism 04.Jun.2004 07:53

Antinomias Vermont

I'm a musician, mainly acoustic blues, and was very sad when Elvin Jones died. In my book, he was the best drummer that ever lived, in any genre. Lots of other musicians will tell you the same. What caused amerikans to ignore Elvin's passing is that understanding his work requires real listening and thinking. And being that most amerikans have the attention span of a 2-year-old and are incredibly ignorant makes this a bit of a problem.

Jones wasn't that great 04.Jun.2004 08:57

MR

Max Roach is far better. Race isn't the problem here, it's Jones's inferior drumming. Somebody had to say it!

Jazz is 04.Jun.2004 09:50

Play it

I applaud Carlos's use of his popularity to shine a little light on the great Elvin Jones. But I do not believe it was racism for Elvin's slight.
Ignorance yes. Same old, same old

Jazz and Jazz musicians just don't get the deserved attention, same old, same old.
When the memory of a great drummer is: "Is he that freaky guy in that hippie western with joe walsh"? well... ... ..that pretty much explains the whole ignorance thing.

There have been many great Jazz musicians that have died recently, black, white, brown; who barely get a mention in any media form outside of the Jazz music world.
More people know about those American Idol singers and those god-awful songs they sing than anything remotely related to Jazz.
Go to the Willamette Weak (sic?-I don't think so) look at the weekly musical listings, rarely if ever is there a mention of a up-coming Jazz show.
Believe it or not there is a lot of Jazz being played here in P-town: Jimmy Maks, Blue Monk, Tugboat brewery, are places that feature Jazz on a nighty basis. The Fez ballroom, Disjecta, Mississippi studios, Creative Music Guild, also put on great Jazz shows. But you would never know it from looking at the WW. Last week they featured a story on the Coachella Valley Music festival like they were Rolling Stone magazine. Same old, same old.

Obviously, Jazz has never been popular... ... well there are many reasons of which Joe Walsh not playing with Wynton Marsalis might be one.

Yes thanks Carlos Santana for giving some props to Elvin, but next time you put out a record, how about instead of using the latest young, white pop singer to sing lead on your sure to be heavily played on MTV hit song, how about using a Jazz singer like Abby Lincoln, Diane Reeves or Cassandra Wilson? Put your money where your mouth is. Can't reach the reality show saturated public with Jazz singers on your records, Carlos?
Same old, same old.

Always the knee-jerk race card 04.Jun.2004 10:00

who cares

The problem isn't racism. The problem is, who the fuck is Elvin Jones?

Elvin Jones fan 04.Jun.2004 12:37

mari

Yes he was the freaky guy in the hippie western with Joe Walsh. The film was called Zacharia, and it is awesome simply for Elvins scene in the saloon. America was a history of course with RACISM, even in music. African americans brought us so much, and then whites like Elvis come along and get all the fame and fortune.

Honky 04.Jun.2004 13:21

no

I guess by "honky" you mean white. You got that wrong moron.

Antimonius hit the nail on the head, "What caused amerikans to ignore Elvin's passing is that understanding his work requires real listening and thinking. And being that most amerikans have the attention span of a 2-year-old and are incredibly ignorant makes this a bit of a problem."

Do you know anything about music, about art, about life, about using your brain "dse?" You don't show it. Well, you are one of "most Amerikans" that Antimonius is refering to.

If he were white 04.Jun.2004 13:24

no

If he were white, and had the same career, MTV, VH1, and Rolling Stone would still ignore him. Look at what these organizations are. Jazz is too complex for the general American audience.

Max Roach was better than Elvin Jones? Are you on crack? 04.Jun.2004 13:26

GRINGO STARS

...I guess if you like tepid corny-ass cliches, Max Roach IS better than Elvin Jones.

RIP Elvin

Elvin Jones was not that great of a drummer, admit it. 04.Jun.2004 13:48

MR

Max Roach, Kenny Clarke, Ed Thigpen, Larance Marable, and Chick Webb are all better than Jones. Nobody's heard of them, so why should Jones, an inferior drummer, be any different? The racism charge is ridiculous and dilutes actual, correct charges of racism. And it's not like Santana has ever featured any of the jazz greats on his albums anyway, what does he care?

Jazz bothers and annoys me 04.Jun.2004 18:58

guess my race

Does that mean I'm a racist?

Elvin Jones at Yoshi's 04.Jun.2004 19:27

UabUab

I saw Elvin Jones at Yoshi's in San Fransisco and he was amazing, he completly outplayed his much younger counterparts. The fact is that VH1 and MTV only play pop geared towards mddle and upper class teens, why the hell would they waste 30 seconds on elvin jones' death when they could be running a noxima ad. It isn't racism it's capitlism.

Jazz artists not an issue of who's "better" 04.Jun.2004 20:47

no contest

to the people who want to make it a "contest" of Max Roach vs. Elvin Jones:

musicians of their stature, technique and original contribution to music are beyond comparison with each other. as a musician, listener and human being I have learned from, love and appreciate both of their musics and musical associations equally.

to "Jazz bothers and annoys me":

try not to think of the music as 'jazz' but simply as MUSIC.

also, try *thinking* less about music, and put more of your energy into *listening* to it and *feeling* it.

to "who the fuck is Elvin Jones":

he was the drummer for John Coltrane's classic quartet group 1960-1965.

try listening to some of their records like 'My Favorite Things', 'Coltrane Plays The Blues', 'Coltrane's Sound', 'Ole Coltrane', 'Impressions', 'Coltrane', 'Crescent', 'A Love Supreme', etc. . . .

they're available at your local Multnomah County Library (search 'Elvin Jones' or 'John Coltrane').

"music is for our feelings" - Ornette Coleman

Next time 04.Jun.2004 21:04

.

you catch yourself listening to white middle-class corporate muzak, nodding and zoned-out, ask yourself, why the hell am I allowing those assholes to hypnotize me?

"MR" - claims unsupported 04.Jun.2004 21:15

no contest

"Max Roach, Kenny Clarke, Ed Thigpen, Larance Marable, and Chick Webb are all better than Jones."

--see above comment regarding musicians of their stature. "comparisons" are fruitless with such innovators and long-term contributors to the music.

"Nobody's heard of them, so why should Jones, an inferior drummer, be any different?"

--see above RE: "comparisons". and I've heard of all of these musicians, and have heard dozens of recordings (and a few live performances) featuring each.

have you checked out the Ed Thigpen album "Mr. Taste"? how about "Out Of The Storm"?

"The racism charge is ridiculous and dilutes actual, correct charges of racism."

--the racism charge Santana makes relates to the overall US media treatment and notification of jazz and jazz artists. As for racism in jazz generally, it's obviously a huge and still unresolved topic, which even Ken Burns had touched on in his widely-seen documentary "Jazz".

"And it's not like Santana has ever featured any of the jazz greats on his albums anyway, what does he care?"

--Santana's 1973-74 albums "Welcome", "Borboletta", and the live-in-Japan "Lotus" feature such artists as Airto Moreira, Flora Purim, Leon Thomas and John McLaughlin.

Santana's 1973 collaboration album with John McLaughlin "Love Devotion Surrender" features Larry Young and Billy Cobham.

his 1974 collaboration with Alice Coltrane, "Illuminations", features Jack DeJohnette, David Holland, John McLaughlin.

Santana's 1980 album "The Swing Of Delight" is a 're-union' of the classic mid-'60s Miles Davis quintet: Santana on guitar with Tony Williams, drums - Herbie Hancock, piano - Ron Carter, bass - Wayne Shorter, saxophone

in 1988 the Santana band completed a successful world tour with saxophonist and composer Wayne Shorter.

I'll take Black Sabbath over Elvin, any day of the week 04.Jun.2004 23:14

Jevvus

"For them to (play up) Ozzy Osbourne and other corny-ass white people, but not Elvin, is demeaning and I'm really embarrassed to live in this country."

Baaaa, when Ozzy was with Sabbath, he was king. Afterwards though, he did become a bit corny.

I'm really embarrased to live in this country too, but not because of some silly percieved slight to a relatively obsure jazz drummer. There's much more serious things to be embarrassed about as Americans.

to "Jevvus" 05.Jun.2004 00:16

no contest

personally I'm a fan of Ozzy on the first four B.S. albums, which in my opinion are some of the greatest ever in rock & roll.

but Santana just mentioned him as an off-the-cuff example, of a fairly well-known aging rockstar who's gained even more mainstream masses notoriety/fame because of a TV sitcom, in order to make the broader point which is clearly expressed above by him. It's not really a good "comparison" or juxtaposition anyway, because Ozzy is British, not American.

and there you are "comparing" types of music with the "better than/worse" again "Jevvus". why?

Jazz is not just one "type" of music. it encompasses a vast range of styles, techniques, emotions and expressions just as valid and liberating as the most intense, in-your-face rock & roll. I'd strongly encourage you "Jevvus" to check out some of what your sole American art form - jazz - has contributed to music. You might even like artists such as Albert Ayler, Ornette Coleman, John Coltrane, Charles Mingus, Miles Davis (try "Agharta" or "Live/Evil") . . . you can spend the rest of your life enjoying and learning about the recorded work of musicians like these, plus there are many jazz musicians right here in Portland for you to enjoy and who need your support.

(it doesn't mean you have to give up Black Sabbath either - I still love those records too. and there are modern jazz / improvised music players who reflect the simultaneous influence of Sabbath and Elvin, plus much more)

btw, Elvin Jones is not a "relatively obsure [sic] jazz drummer" - he's one of the most prolific, influential and well-known drummers in the world (don't take it from me - just ask any musician or drummer).

"There's much more serious things to be embarrassed about as Americans"
- you could be right, but again you've totally missed the points raised by Santana in his statements above. He's pointing out the prejudice and ignorance of Americans "because we place economic values over spiritual ones". This can be seen clearly in the history of the USA's only indigenous art form - jazz. (for a sample, check out Ken Burns' documentary "Jazz" which is available at the library: especially the early episodes about Louis Armstrong.)

for "Jevvus" and other 'jazz skeptics' here 05.Jun.2004 00:40

no contest

an article for you to read . . .

I personally do not think that the below article or encapsulated, abbreviated history it presents is complete (for example it focuses narrowly on an influential 'genre' of improvised jazz music) - nor does it do full justice to the breadth and diversity of artists and music the author discusses.

but that's for you to decide as you learn about and enjoy / reject this music for yourself.

it's just that maybe this article can help all of you who 'think' and 'react to' jazz - or the very mention/idea of it - negatively, and 'see' it in a different light. it's a fun read and hey, it might even get you *listen to* and *feel* this music . . .

------------------------------------

The Real Godfathers of Punk
by Billy Bob Hargus (July 1996)


No contest 05.Jun.2004 00:46

-

Do you play?

good question "-" 05.Jun.2004 01:01

no contest

yes, but lately in the 'past tense' - I have a drumkit and guitar which have been disused for too long due to school and employment obligations. (have been known to play a little piano too.)

some day I'll get organized and disciplined enough to practice regularly and jam again.

Santana has a point - sort of 05.Jun.2004 01:37

neon

I can understand Carlos' point of view - but let's be real, here. Jazz is the music of the French. One would expect France to honor Jazz greats. However, even though Jazz originated in the US - it's NOT the music of the average American. Rock and Country is. So - to Carlos - I love your music (always have), but don't insult those who don't "stop the entire country" for a style of music that is in the minority as far as popularity and understanding. I, myself, am a Jazz fan - but I don't berate those who are not...There are FAR more important things to become incensed over.

You might think about writing a column 05.Jun.2004 01:40

-

You could write a weekly Jazz appreciation column on Indymedia. Indymedia is what we make of it after all. You could write it just before the weekend. Tie a theme in with some local shows that you can recommend. Sounds like you have a lot to teach people, and the Jazz scene in Portland might benefit from such a thing.

You might interest some people here who never thought about going to a jazz club into doing so. It wouldn't matter if people don't respond at first. Just write. (You know, a lot of people here are looking for a way to be cool if you know what I mean)
;-)

After awhile, maybe some of the players in town will see what you're doing and let you do interviews with them. From what I've heard the local media has become less supportive of the jazz scene here in the last few years. Is it true? If so, you can fill in the gap!

This is a GREAT IDEA, even if I do say so MYSELF!!!

:-D

Well, just think about it, 'kay?

The "column" post above 05.Jun.2004 01:47

-

was addressed to "no question." I was being a little silly, but I do think it's a good idea.

a column 05.Jun.2004 02:47

no contest

yeah, thanks for the suggestion - i have actually thought about and considered a 'regular' Portland IMC column or jazz presentation of some sort.

it might not be weekly though.

more like monthly - if that.

or irregular (coordinated to random upcoming events).

and it definitely won't be - for me - a way to 'be cool'. I spend (waste?;-) too much time on IMC as it is, to be writing columns here for free when I can't even pay my bills or organize the rest of my life anyway. but I would love to contribute positive, useful, interesting and fun jazz info on a regular basis for folks to check out.

"filling the gap" of corporate media coverage would be hard and take LOTS OF WORK AND TIME, and I really don't get out enough or personally know enough local musicians to be qualified. I'm no 'scenester' - jazz or otherwise.

but you're right - SOMEONE should definitely do this ! ;-D

Deserving attention are the nonprofit shows at Creative Music Guild (CMG)  http://www.creativemusicguild.org/ which concentrates on avant-garde improvised music, or the 411 Collective  411announce@411collective.org  http://411collective.org/mailman/listinfo/411announce_411collective.org (who had a great concert tonight Friday 4th and have another one - Erik Friedlander - this Monday 7th June) as well as the good club shows or local musician paying gigs.

but also really like the idea of a recurring 'theme' - preferably historical, IMO - to present along with new local music info. there are so many lesser-known (than Elvin Jones for example), hugely influential jazz musicians whose music and legacy deserve attention.

the history of jazz and improvised music is so diverse, vital and creative - and gets so little mass media coverage - that I become more astounded by it as years go by. Also, related to what Santana was talking about above: how few "famous" or "celebrity" musicians have the guts or are willing or able (beyond corporate media ignorance clampdown) to acknowledge jazz's influence on their own work or fame.

also to "neon" - Santana's not "berating" or "insulting" non-jazz fans in his comments above. if anything he's CHALLENGING music fans to be more open-minded and open-hearted about what they consider art or entertainment (or both, or neither). and his comments should certainly have some resonance with the 25 million who supposedly bought his last album. He's a musician (what the heck's he supposed to do, become "incensed" about overthrowing the plutocracy? a-huh . . .) and he has the jazz credentials to back up his statements (plus the corresponding LACK of sales success from the above-listed Santana jazz collaboration albums).

what's wrong with the message from Carlos Santana, of:

DON'T BE A SHEEP

?

and Santana connects his criticism with the US corporate mass media's perpetuation of that ignorance.

plus, "neon": "Jazz is the music of the French."

now you really must have tongue FIRMLY in cheek here . . . makes me wonder about the sincerity of your entire comment, but it sure is comical.

no kenny g is not jazz 05.Jun.2004 10:00

Naima

"what's wrong with the message from Carlos Santana, of: DON'T BE A SHEEP"

The problem is Santana's hypocrisy. Yes he has used Jazz musicians in the past ........the last being in the 80's.

His recent resurgence has been because of his use of white pop singers. With all the riches he has accumulated with his recent success, why doesn't he take a chance and use some jazz musicians now , today, 2004?

He talks a good talk, but he is ingrained in a system that has screwed Jazzbos since Louie. His bottom line is money, his words ring hollow.


"Naima" 05.Jun.2004 11:25

no contest

you could be right. To back up his words today, Santana indeed ought to record a new album or go on tour with some jazz musicians.

and perhaps he may do just that. wait and see.

you are incorrect in asserting that he "stopped" in the '80s, however.

Wayne Shorter, Alphonso Johnson, and members of Miles Davis' last group recorded on Santana's 1990 "Spirits Dancing In The Flesh" (his 15th and final Columbia Records album), which also contains a John Coltrane composition.

Miles Davis (and several of his final band's members) appears on Santana's 1992 "Milagro", which also contains jazz arrangements and compositions.

those are pretty much Santana's last original studio albums (except for a "Santana Brothers" 1995 collaboration) put out before 1999's "Supernatural".

I don't have time to enumerate Santana's discography and band line-ups since the mid-1970s (you can do it yourself), but almost every album he's recorded since that time has featured jazz compositions, arrangements, or personnel.

of the later albums, 1987's "Blues For Salvador" is especially good: featuring drummer Tony Williams, and the compositions "Mingus" and "'trane".

I agree that Santana is "ingrained in the system" of good-old-boys, but he also knew Miles Davis (and 'borrowed' some of his musicians) during the same period when each of them recorded for Columbia Records and Miles was at a peak of commercial success.

so the blanket accusation that Santana's opinions are automatically invalidated because of his position within the record industry is not consistent. He's still a musician - with a proven jazz track record, and one who's still capable of making and exposing creative jazz music.

Jazz 05.Jun.2004 12:32

Never been popular?

Who ever said that jazz was NEVER popular, go pick up an american music history book. Jazz was absolutely huge during the 20's through the 60's you could even hear "A Love Supreme" booming from windows all through the haight. Jazz is responsible for many current commercial music... Oh say like: Rock, hiphop, and R&B. NEXT TOPIC*** To say that his last C.D. wasn't related to Jazz is an absolute fallacy. Many concepts used in his album are very Jazz. Improvised solos, latin beats, hip hop, even some chordal structures that out like a Dominished/Minor+9 chords mixed with spanish sounding progressions makes it worth listening too at leat. And that's hipper than what you'd call just "Corny white music". What you sound like it a bunch of cats that aren't familiar with the music and inexplicable sense of that "Thang" that is jazz. What's scary is people that don't know. What's even scarier is people that don't know that they don't know or pretend like they do.

no contest: Don't be such a musical elitest... 05.Jun.2004 15:31

Jevvus

"and there you are "comparing" types of music with the "better than/worse" again "Jevvus". why?"

Well, because I do like Sabbath, and I don't like jazz too much. I like Miles Davis ok and I like Mose Allison too, but I'm just not into jazz that much. I don't really see where I was comparing music or even saying one was worse than the other. I was just stating my opinion, I like Sabbath better than Elvin. I like chocolate ice cream more than vanilla too, that doesn't mean I'm making a comparison that definitively states that chocolate is better than vanilla (though in my opinion an personal tastes, it is).

"Jazz is not just one "type" of music. it encompasses a vast range of styles, techniques, emotions and expressions just as valid and liberating as the most intense, in-your-face rock & roll. I'd strongly encourage you "Jevvus" to check out some of what your sole American art form - jazz - has contributed to music. You might even like artists such as Albert Ayler, Ornette Coleman, John Coltrane, Charles Mingus, Miles Davis (try "Agharta" or "Live/Evil") . . . you can spend the rest of your life enjoying and learning about the recorded work of musicians like these, plus there are many jazz musicians right here in Portland for you to enjoy and who need your support."

You're making quite an assumption about my tastes and knowledge of music based on 3 or 4 lines of lighthearted commentary. People like some types of music, and dislike others. I enjoy an extremly wide range of music, but some music drives me up the wall, like 'new country' and experimental jazz with their nonstop crazy horns that make me feel like having a seizure. I know my neighboors seem to dislike it when I loudly play Opera or Einsturzende Neubauten; our tastes disagree. No bigee...

Everybody's got their own tastes. Personally, I think Santana needs to lighten up a little bit.

To be cool 05.Jun.2004 15:48

-

No contest, I didn't mean the column would be a way to be cool for you. I meant there are a lot of young people around here who are looking for a way to be cool. That's no criticism. That's just a part of growing up. But you can see it in the words that are often written on this site.

Jazz is obscure enough in this culture to appeal to those who are looking for something different, for something a little out of bounds, a little smarter, etc. But maybe people need a little more information, in an environment in which they are already comfortable, to give them a push in that direction.

Aside from that, Indymedia is perfect for this. Jazz has been ignored by the corporate media. And here you can do whatever you want. There's no boss, no money man... it can be all about the music. As we know, this is not the case with MTV, VH1 etc.

"elitest" [sic] - is that like "bestest"? 05.Jun.2004 16:23

no contest

"Well, because I do like Sabbath, and I don't like jazz too much. I like Miles Davis ok and I like Mose Allison too, but I'm just not into jazz that much. I don't really see where I was comparing music or even saying one was worse than the other. I was just stating my opinion, I like Sabbath better than Elvin. I like chocolate ice cream more than vanilla too, that doesn't mean I'm making a comparison that definitively states that chocolate is better than vanilla (though in my opinion an personal tastes, it is)."

--"better than" . . . whatever. I don't like to hear Sabbath Vol. 4 at 6:15 a.m. on Sunday morning if I'm hung over, but at other times it's more enjoyable. if you'd like to learn more about and listen to jazz artists the leads are above. if you don't, stick with whatcha got.

"You're making quite an assumption about my tastes and knowledge of music based on 3 or 4 lines of lighthearted commentary. People like some types of music, and dislike others. I enjoy an extremly [sic] wide range of music, but some music drives me up the wall, like 'new country' and experimental jazz with their nonstop crazy horns that make me feel like having a seizure. I know my neighboors [sic] seem to dislike it when I loudly play Opera or Einsturzende Neubauten; our tastes disagree. No bigee..."

--EXACTLY. "No bigee". listen to whatever you want. let's not get into a pointless circular discussion about artistic preferences and enjoyment. other than your comments here I haven't a clue about what music you listen to or like, or why. And you wouldn't want to drive yourself up the wall on purpose, would you? for goodness' sake don't TORTURE yourself "Jevvus" . . .

I NEVER "assumed" ANYTHING about your musical tastes / knowledge. but your comment about Elvin being "relatively obsure [sic] jazz drummer" is simply false. every musician and drummer (of ANY genre) you can ask knows who Elvin Jones is.

I also mentioned some recordings and artists, and for you not to make "taste" decisions based on limited characterizations such as "nonstop crazy horns that make me feel like having a seizure". there is a wide range of musical moods, settings and styles performed by each of these artists. your name-dropping the genres 'new country' and 'experimental jazz' further reinforces your stereotypical views.

our "tastes" don't necessarily "disagree" - from what you've mentioned if we got together I'm sure (like any other two people) we'd find things we're both interested in and others we couldn't stand (even within the same genre or by the same artists). Since at this point/in this forum you don't seem too open to suggestion: the more I knew about your tastes/likes/dislikes if we were to directly meet or communicate by email, the better I could perhaps suggest specific jazz artists and recordings that you'd never heard of which you really might like. And of course, that's true of anyone.

Plus people's musical and artistic tastes change over time. additionally musicians themselves tend to be less prejudicial (but not always) about musical genres than most audiences - this is partly out of necessity, any working musician knows too well about the kinds/genres of gigs they may be asked to play for a paycheck.

"Everybody's got their own tastes. Personally, I think Santana needs to lighten up a little bit."

--Santana is making a point about significant jazz artists who don't get recognized in their own country. if you personally don't want to recognize them it's your prerogative to dig what/whoever you want.

Hey No Contest 05.Jun.2004 20:47

Pithecanthropus Erectus

Thanks for the links to the 411 collective. Do you know if the collective is putting together any pot-luck jam sessions like last year? I sure do miss those.
Or is anything being organized in regards to a musical gathering/share of ideas in the Avant?

'Pithecanthropus' - great question about 411 jam sessions 05.Jun.2004 22:36

no contest

I'm on the email list (which anyone can sign on to) and can remember seeing announcements about the jam sessions several months ago.

you could try emailing them and see if you get a response about it.

the last event I attended there was Perry Robinson about 9 months ago.

411announce mailing list:

 411announce@411collective.org
 http://411collective.org/mailman/listinfo/411announce_411collective.org

coolo 24.Jun.2004 12:41

'

thank you carlos.its tme to stop racsm.yeah it sounds useless .but what else??