I Didn't Raise My Son To Be A Soldier

Madame,

Your article brought me to tears, though I havn't children, I have a much younger brother who had thought of joining the military for awhile. I do believe that I can help your sister. I have some good ideas not only for getting your nephew to listen, but for how to dissuade him from officially going. If I can be of any help, please email me. I am a Masters student in Conflict Resolution, and I am a certified mediator. I thank you for your courage in going against the norm, in raising your son, and for the loving concern that you have for your sisters son. I am very impressed by your husbands courage in not allowing your son to join the 'boy scouts,' as I do believe that it will only be when fathers, sons, uncles and other men, teach the young boys and men in their lives that there are other ways to resolve conflict other than through violence. While the mothers are responsible as you have said, the grown men, must intervene, and speak firmly and seriously with these young boys who are so subject to the brainwashing of governments, nationalism, and patriotism. Please let me know if I can be of any help.

Sincerely,

EarthWomb

I read this article and think to myself.. Do people really think this way?

I am a member of the USAF and found it to be a good life myself. I joined up out of sense of purpose that I should join and serve a tour in the arm that defends this country. After my first four years.. I decided to continue on and made it my career. At this time I am serving in the SouthWest Asia area right now on a deployment.

I can understand that as a Mother.. You do not want to see your son be put in a situation where he may be killed while serving. Its only natural. I also perceive that you are a devout person who desires that the military should be gone because you do not believe in it. In my own experience.. There will ALWAYS be situations where violence or force will be applied by all nations to have others bend to that countries government or national will.. ALWAYS. But I respect the rights of others who do not belive in my own beliefs.

But like you said.. at the age of 18, he can legally join if he so desires.

But in reference to the recruiter demanding your identity. You could have demanded to know the name of that individuals supervisors Name and Number, Or better yet.. ask that recruiters commanding officer name and number and then make a complaint. I am just a member apologize that the insistent recruiter was rude to you..

The military is NOT the evil insitution that many people claim it is.. but I will admit that its not for everyone. Its a necessary evil.. no matter what pacifists think.

this is exactly the kind of support that my sister needs right now. she lives in a pro-war community, in which there is zero support. yet she stands strong in her convictions! though we've been brainstorming about what to do, she feels that she has already lost her son, that there is nothing more that she can say that would convince him otherwise, and that she is probably the last person that can have any positive persuasion. she'll be reading this, and she'll be grateful for your help.

Namaste!

...really think this way with re to the military, Kitanis. I've always been anti-military (it goes against nature) though that's not necessarily the case with my sister. Her loathing has really come out since the Iraq War. Even my father, whom nearly disowned me for my radical views post 9.11, has finally admitted that we need to pull out of Iraq. That was BIG for him.

You say:

"The military is NOT the evil insitution that many people claim it is...Its a necessary evil..".

This statement is incongruous my friend; is it evil or not? And there are no "neccesary evils", also an incongruous statement.

In opposition to your statement:

"There will ALWAYS be situations where violence or force will be applied by all nations to have others bend to that countries government or national will.. ALWAYS"...

This will only be the case as long as we erect borders between ourselves and other peoples of the world, until we fail to see that we are all one people. Love is the only "force" to apply to bring about peace. Violence begets violence; where will the madness end? Only in our own hearts.

It's curious to me that you are reading a subversive website such as indymedia?

I'll just get out of the way here and let MLK finish:

"As you press on for justice, be sure to move with dignity and discipline, using only the weapon of love. Let no man pull you so low as to hate him.

Always avoid violence. If you succumb to the temptation of using violence in your struggle, unborn generations will be the recipients of a long and desolate night of bitterness, and your chief legacy to the future will be an endless reign of meaningless chaos."

---

Violence as a way of achieving racial justice is both impractical and immoral. It is impractical because it is a descending spiral ending in destruction for all. It is immoral because it seeks to humiliate the opponent rather than win his understanding; it seeks to annihilate rather than to convert. Violence is immoral because it thrives on hatred rather than love.

---

"We will not build a peaceful world by following a negative path. It is not enough to say we must not wage war. It is necessary to love peace and sacrifice for it. We must concentrate not merely on the negative expulsion of war but the postive affirmation of peace. We must see that peace represents a sweeter music, a cosmic melody, that is far superior to the dischords of war. Somehow, we must transform the dynamics of the world power struggle from the negative nuclear arms race, which no one can win, to a positive contest to harness humanity's creative genius for the purpose of making peace and prosperity a reality for all the nations of the world. In short, we must shift the arms race into a peace race. If we have a will- and determination- to mount such a peace offensive, we will unlock hitherto tightly sealed doors of hope and transform our imminent cosmic elegy into a psalm of creative fulfillment."


Martin Luther King

I am the mother of two young boys who are far from the age of the calls coming from the army. We have said no to the boy scouts,guns are not toys and the many media evils.It's been a struggle since we go against the grain of most peoples American dream.
Thank you for posting your artical.I dont feel so alone any more. More mothers need to help their boys grow up to be strong peacful men.
Lucky for me my boys seem to be on the peacful path.Anti Bush statements come from my youngest more often than from me.In fact we had a little talk about being anti Bush at school may not be the way to go about things.( only to keep him out of the principals office.Imagine he's only 7).
As for my eldest (whos 10) he's looking to form a more peaceful/legal way to get the ELF's point across.
There is hope and speaking out as you did keeps those of us trying to make things right going.
Best wishes to you and yours.
wartie5

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I can understand that as a Mother.. You do not want to see your son be put in a situation where he may be killed while serving.
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I can't speak for rebel girl, but it appears that you are oversimplifying. Obviously her primary concern is the welfare of her son, but it seems to me that her objection to him serving in the military stems far beyond just the threat to his life. Speaking in terms of my *own* position, I view the military as an institution who's mandate it is to preserve the status-quo, to expand national hegemony, and to enforce a global socioeconomic order that is responsible for subjugating and outright *slaughtering* countless millions so that the wealth and power of the elite ruling class can be maintained.

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There will ALWAYS be situations where violence or force will be applied by all nations to have others bend to that countries government or national will.. ALWAYS.
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Or at least as long as "nations" are permitted to *exist*. Allow me to explain what I mean in my response to this next quote:

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The military is NOT the evil insitution that many people claim it is.. but I will admit that its not for everyone. Its a necessary evil.. no matter what pacifists think.
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First of all, I probably differ from rebel chick in that I am NOT a pacifist. I oppose MILITARISM, but not necessarily violence. I believe that the military and the socioeconomic order that it defends must be overthrown by any means necessary.

Second of all, I reject the concept of "good and evil", whether applied to people or institutions. The whole idea of "evil" is based upon the idea that malicious thoughts and actions exist in a vacuum, isolated from any sociological context. The military doesn't drop bombs on defenseless countries like Iraq just to be vindictive, it does so because our society is structured in such a way that a certain segment of the population *benefits* from such behaviour, be it in the form of financial gain, the expansion of political power, or a combination of the two.

Now, when I talk about the way in which our society is structured, what am I referring to? Well, first of all, I need to clarify that I am talking about society on a *global* rather than national scale. As conditions stand right now, our world is broken up into a series of centrally-governed segments known as countries or nation-states. Next, we have a global market-based economy which is dependent upon each nation-state being able to consume natural resources which can then be converted into saleable commodities and sold on the global market. The problems that this creates are obvious: the simple act of dividing the world into nation-states inevitably results in nations competing over natural resources because each nation is working solely towards its own financial gain despite the fact that there is a finite amount of resources. The purpose of each nation's military is to expand it's own position in the global market, thus merely perpetuating the status-quo.

So we are basically faced with two choices: either we accept defeat from the get-go and submit to a system based upon war, greed, and domination, or we try to do something about it. Years of indoctrination have taught people blindly to "love their country". What most fail to realize is that to love one's country is to accept that countries and the global socioeconomic order that I have described here should be permitted to EXIST in the first place. Now, I could easily go into all of the injustices perpetrated specifically by US foreign policy, but I am not interested in going at this from that angle. Suffice it to say that the US is a *nation-state* like any other (although a particulary powerful one) and, for this reason alone, deserves to be done away with. Simply put, nation-states as a social structure must be abolished, and so must the militaries that defend them.

I was waiting for the bus on the bus mall last week when two youngish green fatigue wearing army recruiters came by. They walked right up to a young man --- maybe 15-16 years old and asked him if he had ever thought about a military career. I was honestly appalled. How dare they approach that other mother's son as he waited for his bus. He shook his head "no" and stepped away --- in the way his mother likely taught him to avoid strangers ... I also noticed the recruiters did not approach the street kids sitting on the sidewalk asking for money.
I always told recruiters that my sons (and daughters) were not home, moved out, or had moved to China. Sometimes I began a tirade about the evils of the government that made the recruiters want to get off the phone. I did not endorse the boy scouts either. It is clearly a quasi military institution. The time to start teaching our kids is when they are very young. By the time they are 18 they have their own ideas.
I feel for all parents who find themselves isolated in their beliefs and watching as outsiders seduce their children to a way of life that encourages violence. I don't believe military recruiters should have access to the public schools --- but many people in this town do.

... but I work with about 10 people who served in 'Nam and they are all walking wounded in some way, some pretty badly. Then of course there are my Vietnamese and Cambodians friends who've told me all about what happens when that violence is applied to a nation of mostly farmers. Maybe there's some place in a society for warriors but we've gone about it all wrong. If it's so great why do you need recruiters harassing kids in school, at home, on the street?

That is what doomed your nephew.

"So we are basically faced with two choices: either we accept defeat from the get-go and submit to a system based upon war, greed, and domination, or we try to do something about it. Years of indoctrination have taught people blindly to "love their country". What most fail to realize is that to love one's country is to accept that countries and the global socioeconomic order that I have described here should be permitted to EXIST in the first place. Now, I could easily go into all of the injustices perpetrated specifically by US foreign policy, but I am not interested in going at this from that angle. Suffice it to say that the US is a *nation-state* like any other (although a particulary powerful one) and, for this reason alone, deserves to be done away with. Simply put, nation-states as a social structure must be abolished, and so must the militaries that defend them."

Interesting take and opinions to this subject. I read this board because I have always been fascinated with other people opinions. This forum area also covers my home state which I enjoy even more abiet that I hail from Eastern Oregon instead of the area that covers Portland etc.

But Mind_Century's statement here really caught my eye.

I look back to history, from ancient times to today. Governments, Monarchy's, and Nation-States have always been in control of groups in this world for centuries. To say to abolish them would only bring anarchy. But it still is a interesting idea. But after seeing other governments in my travels and how they treat and control people.. the US is still a place where you can do as you please and not have to worry about the consenquences... this is not true in "peaceful" lands in other portions of the world.. even the so called democracies.

As for as the USA.. Yes it has made the mistakes in the past and it will in the future.. just like all nations.

I will bow out of this discussion because it appears I have hurt a few feelings from the ammount of the emails I have received in private box.

So the argument goes like this:

"It's The Soldier
It's the soldier, not the reporter who gives you freedom of the press.
It's the soldier, not the politician who gives you freedom of speech.
It's the soldier, not the campus organizer who allows you to demonstrate.
It's the soldier, who salutes the flag, serves the flag, & whose coffin is draped with the flag that allows the protester to burn the flag!!!"

This is utter bullshit.

Freedom does not come from the end of a soldier's gun. Freedom comes to us through history, passed on from one generation to the next, as an idea, a goal to work towards. And in working towards this goal, Americans have fought and died in the streets at the hands of the police, and at the hands of the military. This battle has taken place in the streets of Chicago, in the streets of New York, and on the lawns of places like Kent State, Montgomery, Birmingham, Seattle, and Miami.

Freedom comes from speaking truth to power, it comes not from blind faith, but through rational thought and a vigilant distrust of the powers that will always be abused by those in government. Freedom starts with the people, and the people have fought for it every step of the way, against political repression, against cops in the streets, and against recruiters who need canon fodder. Freedom is not something that we have, freedom is something we seek, something for which we strive each and every generation, each and every day of our lives, to achieve just a little bit more.

Freedom is NOT something that is granted to you, or something you are "allowed to have" by soldiers killing foreigners in foreign lands. Freedom is something that people must protect with their thoughts, and their actions, by resisting those who would pervert the notion by redefining the term to suit their own ends.

Freedom must be fought for, yes, but the people who fight for it, these people fight against a government that pollutes their minds with false statements about freedom. Freedom is the fight against slavery, freedom is the right to make up your own mind about who your enemies are.

Freedom is an an eternal struggle for the people against the tyranny of government.

War is not freedom. War is terrorism.

Peace is the only road to freedom, and love is the only vehicle that can ever get us there.

"the US is still a place where you can do as you please and not have to worry about the consenquences"

This is incorrect. Though it is seldom reported, exercising the freedoms that the military is supposedly fighting for will bring swift and severe consequences.

Don't believe me? Watch for yourself what the tv news will refuse to show you.

 http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/02/280786.shtml
 http://portland.indymedia.org/en/videos/#Li2UNews

Those who want freedom will work for it here in the US, before it is nothing more than a footnote in a history book.

Found this lovely banner online just last week. It is a link to a "virtual recruiter" with offers of $150,000 for tuition to some of the best schools in the country. The problem is that these are (as the potential recruit will eventually find out) very empty promises.

I believe we must have a military. But that military should not be used for unwise, frivolous, or simply greedy reasons. Youngsters should not be pressured to give their lives for a reason that is simply not worth it.

I know that some Americans have gotten good things out of the military. You may be one of them. Discipline, direction, comraderie, education, a job (for god's sake) are all things that people can get in the military when they may be lacking it from other sources. But this war is wrong, and to throw one's life away for the bad decisions of a few wacko's who've taken power for awhile is a real tragedy. Giving one's life, and taking the lives of others are simply not worth it.

If you read these pages regularly, I hope you saw the article about Gen. Zinni who vehemently disagrees with this war. I hope you saw how Richard Perle, an un-elected advisor who has an inordinate amount of influence on the policies of this administration ridiculed Colin Powell for being too concerned with the lives of US soldiers.

There are people in this country who would not jeopordize a hair on their own heads, but gladly serve your life up on a platter... no that is giving them too much credit... they would throw your life on the garbage heap without a second thought if they thought it would advance their agenda.

From your writing I can tell you are an intelligent, disciplined, thoughtful, very valuable individual. But you are not valuable to some who can easily determine your life or death. These mothers are protecting their sons from those people.

I respect your decision to bow out of this conversation, but I hope you keep reading this site, and commenting when you see fit.

When I was 18, a military recruiter called me on the phone....I told him I was a pacifist...he got really huffy, saying "Is that right? Is that right?" He then asked what I would do if the Russians came over here and came to my house and started taking all the furniture. I told him I would sit on the floor. He got so tongue-tied he had to hang up.

i understand composting the comment re the military being the ones who "allow" us our freedom, but what that has done is to leave the great argument to that comment standing out there on it's own, without much context. and i was going to respond to that comment as well, but cannot even find it in the compost bin?

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To say to abolish them would only bring anarchy.
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Indeed it would. And I may as well come clean and say that "anarchy" is precisely what I am advocating. However, there really in no point in my saying this when it is not even understood what the term "anarchy" actually means. The word "anarchy" stems stems from the greek word "anarchos", "an", meaning "without" or "the lack of"; and "archos", meaning "ruler" or "chief". In other words, anarchists desire a world without *hierarchy*. The notion that anarchists desire to bring about "chaos" is pure falsehood. We very much desire a society based upon organization, but want that organization to be horizontal and nonhierarchical.

Getting past the etymological roots of the word "anarchy", Anarch*ism* as a cohesive political ideology has existed for over 150 years and has a rich historistical tradition rooted in many struggles for positive social change. One of the key anarchist theorists is a man by the name of Mikhail Bakunin, who was a long-time adversary of Karl Marx. Both Bakunin and Marx agreed that capitalism was unjust because marginalizes workers from the means of production and places them in a position of subservience to their bosses. However, their main disagreement was over what Marx referred to as the "dictatorship-of-the-proletariat". This is basically the idea that a "revolutionary" socialist party acting on *behalf* of the workers should obtain control of the existing state by way of the established electoral system and subsequently obtain control of the means of production. Marx argued that the resultant "workers' state" would be comprized *of* workers and would eventually "wither away" once it successfully implemented a socialist society was implemented. Bakunin, however, argued that this approach would only result in the creation of a NEW ruling class. Unlike Marx, he saw capitalism and the state as EQUALLY unjust, and believed that as soon as a working class person is given a position within the state, the cease to BE working class and AUTOMATICALLY become the new ruling class. Basically, what Marx failed to recognize was that ruling classes can be based on political power as well as wealth. What is interesting to note is that all of Bakunin's predictions about the dictatorship-of-the-proletariat have since come true. Marx argued that this dictatorship, because it is controlled by "workers" will simply suppress the attempts by capitalists to reimpose their system. However, the fact of the matter is that all "Communist" states that have existed so farhave suppressed capitalists and workers alike in an effort to maintain state control.

As an alternative to Marx's "dictatorship-of-the-proletariat" (which is now usually just referred to as "vanguardism"), Bakunin advocated a grassroots mass uprising on the part of ALL working-class people which, instead of establishing a centralized state, would create directly democratic community and workplace collectives. Though their are differing strains of anarchist thought (usually pertaining to economics rather than social organization), this is what most anarchists advocate even to this day.

Speaking for myself (and probably a significant number of my comrades), I believe that an anarchist society will primarily be brought about by way of community and workplace organizing in the here-and-now. These sorts of tendancies already exist in the forms of housing and food co-ops and the existence of revolutionary syndicalist unions such as the Industrial Workers of the World (IWW) which are actively promoting class consciousness in existing workplaces. I believe that as people come together in their own communities and organize with one another even on SMALL scales, they are slowly but surely laying the groundwork for a new society. Granted, in the distant future when anarchist associations present such a significant threat to the existing order as to prompt state violence, it will likely be necessary to respond to that violence with armed People's Militias. However, that is so far off that we don't really need to dwell on it. For now, all we can do is continue to organize within our communities and resist day-to-day injustice wherever it presents itself.

Anyway, that is basically my spiel about anarchism. Rest assured that I could go into MUCH more detail, but I do not have the time and don't particularly feel like taking up that much space in the comments portion of this article. Suffice it to say that those who speak of "anarchy" as being synonymous with "chaos" are sadly mistaken. And, in closing, let me also leave you with this quote by a prominent anarchist thinker named Errico Malatesta:

"The subject is not whether we accomplish Anarchism today, tommorrow, or within ten centuries, but that we walk towards Anarchism today, tommorrow, and always."

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But after seeing other governments in my travels and how they treat and control people.. the US is still a place where you can do as you please and not have to worry about the consenquences... this is not true in "peaceful" lands in other portions of the world.. even the so called democracies.
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First of all, democracy doesn't exist anywhere on this earth, not even in the US. Second of all, I find this sort of finger-pointing to be rather childish. That whole "well, atleast we're not as bad as..." attitude sorely misses the point. If you want to set your standards so low as to measure the worth of your own nation by how it compares to other nations, then be my guest. But nation-states by their very nature represent the lowest common denominator of social organization. Granted, nation-states will not be abolished tommorrow but, at the *very* least, let's raise our standards a little so that we can actually begin to strive for something better instead of just shooting ourselves in the foot.

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As for as the USA.. Yes it has made the mistakes in the past and it will in the future.. just like all nations.
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"Mistakes" is putting it rather mildly. I would encourage you to obtain a copy of a book entitled "Killing Hope: US Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II," by William Blum. This book displays quite aptly that there is a clear modus operandi present in the vast majority of US operations overseas rather than just a series of isolated "mistakes".

I second the displeasure in seeing the censorship. It takes away the comments conext. What ever happened to allowing good commentators to respond.

Now the thread makes less sense.

It was neither threatening nor profane... on what grounds did the editors down there in Portland remove this post?

You are entitled to write your article under the freedom of speech. Freedom of speech that is in the BIll of Rights. The Bill of Rights that American soilders fought and died for. So really you be little the military, but then you turn around and take advantage of the rights it has given you!!!! Kids today arent not brianwashed they just possess something you dont a love for thier country. It is sad enough the it took something like 9-11 to bring the country back to patriotism, but it is even worse when idiot people like you make stupid comments about it. Now you dont want your son to join, you wont allow it. Sounds to me like you are raising a coward, not a man. So everytime you take a breath, speak a word, drive your car, remember one thing; those are freedome provided to you by the US Government and its Military. You dont like it GET THE F OUT!!!!!

> The Bill of Rights that American soilders fought and died for.

Like when? Really, please name the wars that these soldiers fought in to protect this Bill of Rights.

> You dont like it GET THE F OUT!!!!!

And go where? Maybe you're just an ignorant jackass, but it's not very easy to gain work visas in other countries.

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Maybe you're just an ignorant jackass
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I think it's a little more than just *maybe*, dude.

The use of our flag as symbol of blanket "patriotism" and the conflict (it is not a declared war and a poor excuse for one) in Iraq has left my neighbors and I conflicted about displaying the flag for Memorial Day.

It would be more appropriate to display a US version of a flag of peace, as I am sure all soldiers who have served in past conflicts wish only that they had never been necessary and that such a thing would never happen again.

I WILL fly a flag for the Fourth of July, as it represents freedom and the principles of a democratic government upon which our country was founded. These principles are increasingly under attack nowadays and the common American has less and less information and less and less influence as the monied and powerful claw their way to greater and greater privilege under the fond eye of the Bush administration - the new neoconservatives who foster a new Gilded Age.

This new "Age" does not do those who enter the military any favors, either. Those who were ushered out of the military at the end of World War II could count upon the GI Bill to help with education and the purchase of a home. That kind of help is not longer there. Now they must pay for some of their uniforms and weapons, their aftercare if they are wounded, and may return home to a job that no longer exists and debts that they can never hope to repay. And all of this would be in addition to the psychological wounds they will carry for the rest of their lives.

And for what? Because our President could not be bothered to practice diplomacy, discretion, and patience and attacked preemptively a country which posed no threat to the American people.

When Al Gore recently said, "Shame on them!" I said, "Hear, hear" . . . for a myriad of reasons.

so youd rather he be a draft dodging coward like his dad, eh?

You want peace? Here's what you do... stop funding Israel, stop letting the zionists railroad us into one meaningless conflict after another going all the way back to world war one, with only zionists as beneficiaries. Drop a nuke on Israel, and that will be a good start. I know it sounds harsh, but zionism has cost so many lives over the last 100 years it's sickening. Once Israel is wiped off the face of the earth, you must get every khazar jew out of every governmental and media position on the planet, there must be strict discrimination against khazar jews, to make sure they do not start manipulating nations and governments again. Hitler should have finished the job. Have I offended you yet? Good. Do some research about just what Israel is doing over there, and about the parasites in the media and governments worldwide who scream anti-semitism and oppression while they remain the most powerful race of people in the world.

It always amuses me to hear the military personnel's version of their military lifestyle. Seldom do you hear from the ones who put their vicarious time in---the children/spouses of the military. Never do you hear the horrible stories of what it is to be involved with the government's military when you are a helpless child. So abusive, so disrespectful, so anti-life and anti-family.

We are the silent witnesses (the military way) to the psycho messes that 'come back home', in my case my father did 3 tours of Vietnam (we counted the days til he left-secretly of course). He was broke into the system after he enlisted for the Korean 'conflict'. So sad for us, we who had to run for it so many times when he was hell bent to kill us all.

If you are totally unhealthy in mind, body and soul enter the military system. You will probably prosper in that environment. Do everyone a favor though: do not marry or have children, the ones without a voice in your career choice. The best thing my upbringing did for me was force me to analyze the history of this country and the armed forces. I am totally anti-war and anti-military by experiencing the first hand experience of the military and its dehumanizing effects on its personnel.

Peace Rebel Girl,
I can think of one way that may help your sister's son. Since he is being persuaded by either current or ex-military personnel into joining, why not see if you can arrange a visit to a local VA hospital? See if he can meet with ex-military who have served in Vietnam or the Gulf War I. Meet with individuals who are suffering from the effects of Agent Orange or Gulf War Syndrome. Those in the military who are against war are usually the ones who actually have seen the effects first hand.

Also, rent and have him watch "The Fog of War" and "The Trails of Henry Kissinger". "The Fog of War" is an outstanding documentary about Robert McNamara and his 11 lessons for war. He was the secretary of defense from 1960-1967 (during Cuban missile crisis and Vietnam). This will help him learn about the type of individuals who dictate war.

excellent suggestion beatnik girl. I encourage all war mongers to support the troops who are here in America. I once knew an RN who had worked at Walter Reed Army hospital. She was a surgical nurse who was very experienced with TORSO RECONSTRUCTIONS!!! Lots of secrets in the military-lots of dirty deeds done dirt cheap. Lots of people still in the military system, ruined at any age. My father, USN ret. said he could always tell a Vietnam vet, their eyes looked dead. Lost souls-

Parents protect your kids from the lying ones of all makes. The recruiters are worse than used car sellers. Also, if there are kids in the service who hate what they are becoming encourage them to leave regardless of the kind of discharge they receive. You can't take nothing with you but your soul. I would rather be an honorable person with a dishonorable discharge than a dishonerable human with an honorable. Also encourage your kids to not marry anyone in the service. It is a horrible disrespecting abusive life style for them and their offspring. Nothing honorable about 'serving your country' under lies and omissions. Go for the truth and reality and you can't lose.

the beginning of the draft after november is imminent. i served 20 years on active military service. my son is 16 years old. it just sickens me so very much to think that us government officials are going to force my son into a military uniform and send him abroad to kill whomever they decide should be killed. i do not believe that there is any power on earth that can stop this insanity. it will just have to run its course. i get some consolation from the notion that we "reap what we sow".

I know it's extremely difficult to have a son or daughter with aspirations of Military service. I spent seventeen years of my life in the Army. I left before retirement for a large variety of reasons. One of the biggest reasons was the fact that the "Soldier" was no longer seen as an important asset to the government. The training was beginning to be substandard, the medical "coverage" that was promised to myself and family was replaced by a private health coverage policy, Which was in all actuality, breach of contract.
If the military really cared for their soldiers, they wouldn't be utilizing Depleted Uranium in their weaponry. I don't believe that ANY of the personnel now serving in Iraq will EVER be able to have a viable child because of the Radiation poisoning as a direct result of the Depleted Uranium. If any young adult has any desire to bring children into this world at any time in the future, I would strongly recommend they not join the military for this very reason.

This has not become a very large issue at present but when these young men and women return and make an attempt to have children, they will find that each attempt will yield the same results, a severely deformed child! Therefore, if they plan to carry on their families name, DO NOT JOIN THE MILITARY.

If you do not believe this, type into any search on the web; Depleted Uranium and search for the stories of these children now being born both in Iraq and several soldiers poisoned from the first Gulf war.

Peace Rebel Girl,

Here in Canada we already have a couple of reported army deserters from the Iraq War, and possibly more that have gone unreported. And there are other Americans that have re-located here as well because they just can't take the the US agenda anymore. Many observers are expecting the US draft to be reinstated, so if this happens, we may get a flood of US immigration and draft evasion. During Vietnam, around 125,000 Americans came to Canada. Half stayed permanently. They weren't all draft dodgers. There were entire families, writers, artists, etc. basically anyone who didn't agree with the whole American way of doing things at that time.

Rest assured there is still this underground railroad in place here since the Vietnam era. I happen to know this to be true, so come what may, conscientious objectors and other Americans can try to find their way here. Regardless of this new border agreement, where there's a will, there's a way. Have hope. You and your son may need it in the coming months. Email me if you need more info.

A few thoughts....
First off, congratulations to all the mothers who mentioned that they raised their children (keep in mind it's not just your sons in danger anymore) not to be soldiers. There are too few of you, but hopefully your numbers will grow.

To Kitanis, While you might enjoy your time in the military, and I wish you safe passage through it, realize that much of what you have been promised will not be delivered. I was born on a U.S. Air Force Base. My father served 20 years before retiring. All that has happened since then is cuts, cuts and more cuts to retiree benefits.

To all those who insist that we are free because of our military, I only need to point north. We are not attacked by people who hate our freedom. Rather, we are attacked by people who tire of our meddling in the affairs of others, usually for economic purposes. If terrorists hated our freedom, surely Canada would be targeted far more often. The only true threat to our freedom, is apathy. The american populace is far too willing to allow freedom to be usurped.

Perhaps the woman with the son who is eager to join would do well to ask him to articulate exactly how him being killed in Iraq would make anyone here safer. As a matter fo fact, the people of MAdrid might argue that the opposite is true.

I do not see the bush twins in Iraq. One of my family memebers is so screwed up mentaly from Iraq that he will probably kill himself or another person. Recruiter BS'd him and he bought it hook line and sinker. We will train you to fix things and you will not see combat. Miserable training , and put him in the middle of a war zone.

this topic has generated some passionate views. thank you for the support!

wartie5: those peacefull sons of yours are our fantastic future!

Mind_Cemetary: my concern is for the son's (and daughter's) of all mother's everywhere. and yes, you are correct in saying that my objection stems far beyond that. Re your statement of not necessarily being opposed to violence, truly, i do not see how violence can solve the problem of violence, because these issues that you mention: "to expand national hegemony, and to enforce a global socioeconomic order that is responsible for subjugating and outright *slaughtering* countless millions so that the wealth and power of the elite ruling class can be maintained", these are issues of violence or the absence of love.

mom: thanks for pointing out the audacity of these recruiters in going out and preying on america's youth to fight their dirty war. a while back there were ads on the radio with seductive music that made it sound like it is a sexy thing to join the military, and kill people. creepy!

oldy: i worked with veterans (mostly vietnam era) for 2.5 years. they were homeless, had alcohol and drug issues, and many had physical, emotional and social challenges. i remember having a lot of reluctance in taking the job because of my feelings about the military, but in the end was very humbled by it. these vets taught me so much about the military, from the inside. when people throw the "support our vets" stuff out there, how about supporting the vets who beg are left to beg on the street corners, hungry and penniless. what a crime to send young boys to war and then kick them to the curb when they come home broken and unable to re-enter the system.

Kitanis: you have some interesting insights to share (ie: "I could easily go into all of the injustices perpetrated specifically by US foreign policy", yes, please do take this angle and enlighten us (as a soldier with this knowledge) if you understand the implications of these gross injustices) although some of them, in my opinion, are flawed: "the US is still a place where you can do as you please and not have to worry about the consenquences": this depends on how privledged a person is, or how much $$ or social standing they have. If it were simply "mistakes" (aka lessons) that the US has been making, we would've learned from them long ago. instead, history continues to repeat itself over and over. indeed these "injustices" that you mention are premeditated ones.

my balls are plenty big: your comment would appear to be in response to the person who said that we, as americans, only have the military to thank for our freedom. your comment is spot on. I especially appreciate this: "Peace is the only road to freedom, and love is the only vehicle that can ever get us there".

Objector: seems that they are stooping at nothing to recruit these days. yes, all empty promises...

Pacifist: i love your story, brilliant!

Mind_Cemetary: Anarchy is a good idea whose time has come. thanks for elucidating us on the true meaning of it. for more on anarchy check out murray bookchin, who is in favor of toppling the government heirarchy.

freedom fighter: it is sad indeed that, post 9.11, this country made a return to a nationalistic arrogant attitude of superiority. go back and read the commentary from "my balls are plenty big" for a primer on our freedom. your definition of a "coward" is someone who refuses to fight and kill? well then, blessed are the "cowards".

North Portlander: flying a earth flag makes the most sense. we live in different countries but we are all One People. re vets not being entitled to benefits; i recently saw a piece on the web about five men who have recently returned home from iraq, all of them severely handicapped. one man, 22 years of age, who had both of his legs blown off, was shown being wheeled through wal-mart by his wife, with his two toddlers sitting on his stumps. his wife was saying how hard it has been on them with all of the expense of traveling back and forth from home to where her husband receives medical treatment. unbelievable that they are being burdened with ANY expenses at all!

little_whip: ditto on what i said to "freedom fighter". blessed are the "cowards"!!

anonymous: let us get rid of all "isms".

BeyondLeftist: i have heard many of these horrible stories, from the mouths of our vets.

beatnik: i think that your idea is a great one! i have been wondering how to hook him up with this experience. I missed the "fog of war". i'll have to rent it. i've been thinking about e-mailing him some stories from vets.

all parents of teenagers: i think that it is important to support our children in finding a way out of here when the draft goes into effect. get their passports in order.

nitecrawler: thank you for your comment and offer to communicate further via e-mail. i will! it is reassuring to know about the underground railroad in canada.

Juan Valdez: your comments are refreshing, thank you for them.

Blue: nor will we see the nbush twins in iraq. i'm sorry to hear about your family member devastated by iraq. unfortunately, they'll be many more to come. om shanti, shanti, shanti...

Isn't it a shame that when some uneducated, ignorant people don't have an answer or an argument, all they can say is 'IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT GET THE F--- OUT! or 'GO BACK WHERE YOU CAME FROM'? The same old tired, worn phrase.

Except even if we do leave, the arrogant militants will follow and invade any country they darn please.

...if y'all would be so supportive if the author were saying:
"I didn't raise my son to be a faggot!"
"I didn't raise my son to be an atheist!"
"I dind't raise my son to be a commie!"
"I didn't raise my son to be some kinda hippie freak!"

Or any other words to that effect...
(And how about "I didn't raise my daughter to marry a black man!"?)

Step out of your liberal camaraderie for a second, and think. You're basically saying its right for a parent to control the moral and ethical choices of their child, AFTER he reaches adulthood -- and you're offering schemes and ploys to help the mother trick her son into making the "right" (well, LEFT), choice. Isn't this antithetical to basic liberal principles of self-determination? Or are such principles only valid if the new adult is rebelling against conservative parents by choosing a liberal path?

I see few, if any, voices here saying:"It doesn't matter what you raised him as. He's not your slave, your toy, your experiment in social engineering. He's an adult, and has the right to make his own choices and live his own life. If you truly raised him *well*, you've taught him how to make choices in accordance with his values, and to choose his own values, rather than simply assuming he'll accept what you believe without question."

The other, mind-numbingly arrogant, assumption being made is that the son is "Brainwashed", "duped", "controlled", etc -- that he could not be capable of actually making this decision freely. This demonstrates the sort of narrow-minded zealotry normally seen in small Southern towns.

(Would *I* have joined the military at 18? Hell, no! I was far too concerned with keeping mind and body united to even consider it. Others of my peers had different priorities, and, for most of them, the military was the right choice.)

You're right, recruiters can be overzelus. They have a tough job, and all your son has to do is say no!!
I've been in the military for ten years, and honestly your opinion does'nt bother me. Just know that countries such as Russia, Italy, Spain, France, and Israel, to name a few, have a manitory military tour for every man of two years, in Israel its every man and woman. So I don't think we have such a bad deal in our Country. I don't blame you for not wanting your son to be put into harms way. I'm not going to tell my kids to go either, but if they do I will not stop them, thats why they call it a sacrifice. Whether you want to admit it or not, our military, today and from years past, allow you to share your opinion, and I'm proud to be in defense of your opinion, whether it suits my political beliefs or not. Just remember we belive all men, women, and children deserve our freedoms. In some regions of this world, a letter such as yours, written by a woman, would be severely punished.
No mother, (or father) wants their children fighting wars. Just remember, your son, my sons, or anyone's son's, are not to blame for 3,000 people being killed on 9/11, and never loose sight of the fact that they could have killed 50,000. I don't care what their reasons are, they are psycopaths, and they must be delt with. You should really do some research about what is really going on in Iraq, and not just take the medias word for it. Also selective service is the law, not an option. Your son does'nt have to sign up, and I nor anyone else in the military will think any less of him for it.

Even Bush has admitted that. But if you want to die for others to get rich, go ahead. We'll see them all tried for war-profiteering in the end and if you want to die for that, well, there's no law against killing yourself for the profits of others.

And once again, we here in the US are fighting for our freedoms while the troops fight for profit. The soldiers in Iraq are not fighting for our freedoms. Not even the government is making such a silly, laughable claim, only their blind followers.

As long as their is occupation there will be resistance, never forget that. As someone who lost family on 9/11 I blame the Bush administration for allowing the attacks to be carried out when they had knowledge of what was about to take place.

You don't think it's just a coincidence they've been stonewalling the 9/11 investigation for over a year now do you? They act like they have something to hide because they do have something to hide. Cheney got Halliburton full control of Iraqi oil and all it cost them was a few thousand US and Iraqi lives.

If that hadn't been worth it to them, they wouldn't have done it.

I haven't met anyone recently, regardless of political beliefs that doesn't admit Iraq was a bad idea, a mistake. More terrorists have been created at a tremendous cost to the US in lives and dollars. 9/11 was blowback for US policies in the 80's and 90's. It will be nothing compared to the blowback for current US policies.

I don't know. Lizard, you say:

"You're basically saying its right for a parent to control the moral and ethical choices of their child, AFTER he reaches adulthood --

"It doesn't matter what you raised him as. He's not your slave, your toy, your experiment in social engineering. He's an adult, and has the right to make his own choices and live his own life. "

but isn't it the same thing in the military - out of the frying pan into the fire? What the kid will have in the military is no noice, he or she will have to follow orders blindly = like in Abu Ghraib.

From the first step into bootcamp, it will be mind control, the way to do it
- is the psychological shock of being away from home and back-up system - usually in another state.
- the kid's head is shave
- a series of shots shoved into the arm
and one of the important steps in the first softening is :
-having them sit all night in the hall without sleep - awaiting further orders.

the first softening up

"You're right, recruiters can be overzelus. They have a tough job"

As has been pointed out already, if what the military is doing is so noble, honorable, and beneficial, why should it be a problem to get people to sign up?

"I don't care what their reasons are, they are psycopaths, and they must be delt with."

Yes, and I'm sure many Iraqi's now feel the same way about the US killing over 10,000 civilians in Iraq. If you cannot understand the worldview of someone who wishes to do you harm, you will never be successful in dealing with them. Doesn't take a genious to figure that out.

It also doesn't take a genious to guess that the US invasion and occupation of Iraq would create more terrorists. We all knew it 2 years ago; how long will it take you to figure this out?

It was stated quite well above so I will just reiterate:

Freedom is NOT something that is granted to you, or something you are "allowed to have" by soldiers killing foreigners in foreign lands. Freedom is something that people must protect with their thoughts, and their actions, by resisting those who would pervert the notion by redefining the term to suit their own ends.

I was under the impression that the military was to defend a country, NOT to go out and invade someone's country.

The 3,000 that died in WTC are out of the picture - out of the trouble, it is We, here that insist on revenge - that not even the families of the 3,000 want.




The bottom line is that we attacked countries that had nothing to do with 9/11 - while "supposedly" the "terrorists" were from Saudi Arabia - but we're still doing business with the Saudis.

But, anyway, why is it ok to attack innocent civilians?

I don't understand you!

You are a victim of oversimplification. You are a victim of overprotectivness. You are a victim of a culture who knows nothing of loss and lives by the creedo that "It's fine for someone else to do this, but no one I care about." You are a modern American.

It seems like your concern (read: greatly overprotective nature) for you son extends further than just this issue. I have a problem with pacifist ideology in general, but you exist as much more thatt this. Your concerns for your soon completely dwarf his rightt to do whatever he wishes. He is not 'forced' into the military to go to college, merely it exists as another option for someone who is unwilling to pay for his tuition.

Pacifism, lets look at this idea for a second. If your ancestors had not taken up arms to fight an oppresion by another nation, we would not have what exists today. The entire existance of humanity has been defined by war, where the strongest nation was generally the one that survived, and prostpered. If every American was unwilling to take up arms in defense of their nation, we would not exist in any meaningful capacity in the world today.

So, as you sit at home as an overprotective, pacifistic woman living the life that is unobtainable by billions in thw world today, you exemplify and ideology that both selfish to the core and unrealistic in any form.

Throughout American history, the gun has served to maintain the country and ensure we keep the society we have built. For you to be such an ardent anti-military person, you disgrace every person who has ever lived as an American, and for that you shoud be deeply ashamed.

One could wager that you hate the military because they would take the control away from you that you have over you son. Do you have a weak marrige? Do you constantly find yourself depresseed at night? You think you are overweight, most likely are? Is your entire world set up to control and thus live through your son? People like yopu dream of the perfect wedding for their child att the age of 3 and have their entire life plotted out before they reach kindergarten. Do us all a favor, and let your son choose his own path for once in his life. And, better yet, try not to post your ridiculous oppinions to why the government, offering the free education that your son wants, is morally corrupt and evil when you know full well how easy student loans are to obtain.

I supporrt the military, rregardless of what they do. I may not agree with the actions, but I support the instition like ever American should. You, however, do not.

Benjamin Franklin had the idea all along. "If you are not willing to fight for freedom, you do not deserve it"

My daughter is draftable under the laws sitting waiting to be passed after the elections this fall. I can tell you right now, she will not be drafted!
Every young person in this country should be required to read Major General Smedley Butler's, "War Is A Racket" which is available online at www.ratical.org./ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html
I did not raise my child to be a mercenary for corporate america. I don't think anyone can rationalize this war as protecting the rights and freedoms of the citizens of this country as Bush declares each time he opens his mouth. In fact every war this country has been involved in for the last 100 years has been based on deceit and outright lies. When will the people ever wake up to the truth?

Fight for freedom? We are not fighting for freedom in Iraq. Not our freedom, or the freedom of Iraqis. Iraq never tried to take our freedom away. Find a way in which they have tried. You can't because it doesn't exist. We are not giving them freedom. We are trying to control them.

"They hate us for our freedoms," is a buzz phrase repeated by Bush, Rice etc. that has nothing to do with reality, but everything to do with hypnotizing people like you who only need a buzz phrase to justify killing people we have no business killing.

Think a little deeper, look a little deeper. What are you actually doing? What are the consequences of your actions? That is the reality. You are being manipulated, quite easily.

No, the Iraqi's didn't try to take our freedom, but I don't recall ever saying that.

Look away from your bs political agenda for one moment. YOU NEED PEOPLE TO FIGHT, or else you can never have anything. While I will agree that people are being manipulated, it is really moot in relation to the topic. The writer is an ideological moron that happens to be a pacifist. If no one fight, evertually, the world crumbles.

====================
Re your statement of not necessarily being opposed to violence, truly, i do not see how violence can solve the problem of violence, because these issues that you mention: "to expand national hegemony, and to enforce a global socioeconomic order that is responsible for subjugating and outright *slaughtering* countless millions so that the wealth and power of the elite ruling class can be maintained", these are issues of violence or the absence of love.
====================

First of all, let me say that the issue of pacifism is something that I have very strong views on, as I am sure you do too. Before going into my criticisms of pacifism, I should first say that I don't think that I expressed clearly enough earlier what I meant when I said I am not necessarily opposed to violence. I should now state that violence IS NOT something I wish to glorify. It is usually a profoundly unpleasant thing that should be avoided at all costs. However, it is BECAUSE and not DESPITE the fact that I dislike violence that I reject pacifism. Simply put, I believe that pacifism can often BE violent, although usually in less obvious ways than overt acts of physical aggression. I see the *refusal* to take the necessary actions to *prevent* a violent attack on fellow human beings as violent in and of itself. In the words of Malcolm X (and I apologise for the gender-specific language, but it is still a good point), "it is criminal to teach a man not to defend himself when he is the constant victim of brutal attacks." Said another way, it is *violent* to do so. Pacifism assumes that as long as YOU are not violent, then your adversary won't be either. But history as proven time and time again that this is not the case. When it comes to slaughtering defenseless civilians, the state has shown that it has absolutely no shame. There is perhaps no better example of this than the Amritsar Massacre of April 1919 in India when 1600 totally peaceful demonstrators (women and children included) were mercilessly gunned down by British soldiers. These demonstrators were, of course, followers of the champion of nonviolence himself, Mohandas K. Gandhi. The state cannot be trusted to remain nonviolent when confronted with nonviolence. To convince people otherwise who are then subjected to unfettered brutality *despite* being nonviolent is to *perpetrate* an act of violence.

Furthermore, I see pacifism as typically the ideology of privleged white middle-class types who really have never experienced genuine suffering in their entire lives (and, to be clear, the only thing that differentiates ME from such individuals is that I don't consider myself a pacifist). It is really easy to talk about being nonviolent when you have never had to live with, say, the Isreali occupation of Palestine or the poverty and starvation of the indigenous peoples in Chiapas who formed the Zapatista movement. As privleged westerners, we really have no right to tell people in these sorts of conditions to be "nonviolent".

As to your point about the injustices in our society being due to the absence of love, I appreciate the heartfelt sentiment from which this originates, but I fear that it is little more than empty rhetoric. Love is a wonderful thing, but it doesn't stop bullets (and, yes, I realize that there are arguments to be made for love stopping bullets in indirect or metophorical ways, but I am being completely literal here). For people who live with the imminent threat of death everyday, talk of "love" being used to "overcome" their enemies is of little utility. First and foremost among their priorities is simple SURVIVAL.

At any rate, that is the essence of my arguments against pacifism. In closing, let me leave you with another quote that I think you might find interesting:

"Where the choice is set between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence. I would a thousand times prefer violence than the emasculation of a whole race. I prefer to use arms in defence of honour rather than remain the vile witness of dishonour." - Mohandas K. Gandhi

Fighting for freedom does not have to mean taking up arms.
We fight for our freedom when we work for justice against the odds.
We fight for freedom when we work to insure that all chidlren have healthcare, education, homes to live in, food to eat, parents with decent jobs and benefits and clean water and air to breathe so that we can be free to really live.
Nations must fight when they have more than their share and need to defend what they have or fight off others who would like a share too.
Greed, the desire for power over others, an inability to live simply, an aristocratic mentality that wants others to do the menial work --- these attitudes create war --- and we can "fight" them by raising all of our children well.
I am a freedom fighter. I will never take up arms.
i have not raised my children to kill the children of others.

================
If no one fights, evertually, the world crumbles.
================

How very true! The world will crumble if American imperialism is not fought tooth-and-nail!

There is a huge difference between a pacifist and a coward.
Pacifists are not passive. Nor are they cowards.

i too get angry when i hear of the gross injustices occuring, but i do consider violent acts as a means to dealing with the violence which i abhor. when i speak of the force of love it goes far beyond "heartfelt sentiment".


An excerpt from Ven. Ghosananda's teaching at Gethsemani:

"I do not question that loving one's oppressors -- Cambodians loving the Khmer Rouge -- may be the most difficult attitude to achieve. But it is the law of the universe that that retaliation, hatred, and revenge only continue the cycle and never stop it. Reconciliation does not mean that we surrender rights and conditions, but rather that we use love in all of our negotiations. It means that we see ourselves as the opponent -- for what is the opponent but a being in ignorance, and we ourselves are also ignorant of many things..."

A Prayer

The suffering of Cambodia has been deep.
From this suffering comes Great Compassion.
Great Compassion makes a Peaceful Heart.
A Peaceful Heart makes a Peaceful Person.
A Peaceful Person makes a Peaceful Family.
A Peaceful Family makes a Peaceful Community.
A Peaceful Community makes a Peaceful Nation.
And a Peaceful Nation makes a Peaceful World.
May all beings live in Happiness and Peace.

-- Ven. Maha Ghosananda

----
on real courage...

Although ahimsa literally means "noninjury," Gandhi's use of the word encompassed universal love. According to the Mahatma, to follow the doctrine of ahimsa means you may not offend anyone; you may not harbor an uncharitable thought, even of your enemy. Indeed, the man who follows ahimsa has no enemies. "A man cannot then practice ahimsa and be a coward at the same time," he wrote. "The practice of ahimsa calls forth the greatest courage."

----

am the 12-year old girl, refugee
On a small boat,
Who throws herself into the ocean after
Being raped by a sea pirate,
And I am the pirate, my heart not yet capable
Of seeing and loving.
Please, call me by my true names,
So I can hear all my cries and my laughs
At once,
So I can see that my joy and pain are one.
Please, call me by my true names,
So I can wake up,
And so the door of my heart can be left open,
The door of compassion.

Thich Nhat Hanh

Those are all beautiful words, but they are all designed to appeal to the emotions rather than to reason. They do not offer any pragmatic solutions, only hollow abstractions about "love" and some shapeless "cycle" of violence. You still have not responded to my assertions that your ability to hold such beliefs is coloured by your own class privlege and that pacifism in itself can often times BE violent.

You wrote "Benjamin Franklin had the idea all along. "If you are not willing to fight for freedom, you do not deserve it"

It seemed you were implying that the original poster was not willing to fight for freedom. There is no way we can know this. What we do know is that she doesn't want to send her son or nephew to fight in this war in Iraq.

This war in Iraq has nothing to do with freedom.

If you want to expand upon that and say she's a pacifist therefore she is not willing to fight for freedom, that's a whole other story. Pacifists are against war. That doesn't mean when their freedom is directly threatened they won't stand up and fight in their way. It can be argued that she is fighting for her freedom and for her son's freedom from government policies that have gone frightfully astray.

I don't think Benjamin Franklin would be proud of this war or the actions of this administration.

That's right, the 23rd Generation Soldier, And I just had that conversation with a Recruiter (Gunny in the Marines). And NO WAY in HADES, are my kids going. None of My Nephews or Nieces. My Recomendations, are to inform your kids of what is going on, and WHY! You see, the Last 3 Veterans that remain in our family. Have made the pact, despite our Pedigree to the Scottish and British Knights of our ancestor's. And being of a better Code of honor. (Our Ancestor's would not go on the Crusades either!) You want or need a Noble or Honorable fight. It's right here at home, ON OUR Ground. It's in the Open forum of the Public, Courts and Senate halls. Your best weapon is your Brain! USE IT! Next your Voice! USE IT!
Never fear, as you can alway's fall back to the primitive way of Blunt instruments. Which is indeed the last Resort. We have a Motto here at home: "Never start a fight, But be damn sure to finish it!" We debate always. Then, we find a solution. For the Family. Then our neighbors, Community and State.
We shoot, we hunt. We Laugh! And most of all, we stand together. That's what you need to instill in your kids, that they are never alone, Never an "Army of ONE" Sic! We are there together, good or bad. But, Responsibility for ones actions is paramount. You can rent the body, But! You can never buy a soul!
And that is where it begins and ends. With yourself! (Family is the One!)

You must support the troops. They are not guilty of anything because they have superiors who are suppose to take responsibility. And, you must never blame the troops. They are good boys and only do bad things because somebody told them to. If you blame the troops it means you have never been in a war and don't know anything. Only people who have been in a war have the right to say what's right and what's wrong. Only people who have been in a war can judge the troops. The troops are in Iraq doing the best they can and if they torture or sexually abuse anybody it's because they are only doing their best. Anybody who's been in a war can tell you that. The troops must be supported at all costs. They are the true heroes of this conflict and don't need anybody who hasn't been in a war saying any different. If you have never been in a war then you have no business judging the troops. They are America's best and brightest and always do their best for each other, Bush and their commanding superior. So, if you decide not to support the troops because some Iraqi's got tortured or sexually abused, then you don't know anything and have probably never been in a war. -the troops

No one here is blaming the troops. Who are you talking to? You're in the wrong thread.

The ones who torture and sexually abuse are NOT our best. They are ordinary people caught in extraordinary circumstances. Don't insult those who are really our best. There are some who would not resort to that kind of behavior, even under the most trying circumstances of war. THEY ARE OUR BEST. To be honest, most of us are ordinary. The best is always just a small percentage.

You are a great warrior family, armed or unarmed.

Though you may all disagree, i have come to a horrible conclusion of war, it is a part of humanity that is needed in order for us to survive. War is population control though we refuse to admit it. It is natural selection, i believe that if War really was not meant to be fought among humans, we would not feel the urge to commit violent acts against eachother. It is just Population control the natural way, letting us fight it out until only the non-violent remain, or we are all whiped out.

The troops are ruined people- taking part in multiple murders does that to a person. They will return home after their tours and take up their traditional places on the nation's police forces- turning their proclivity for violence against Iraqi and Afhani people upon citizens in this country. There, many of them will end up convicted of the same crimes committed during their tours of duty. Domestic violence, drug offenses, and corruption will round out their criminal records before suicide or depravity claim them completely.

A nation that scrapes the bottom of the barrel, as it does in the case of it's recruits, gets what it deserves. And there's no better place to look for recruits if the nation's mission is murder.

Well I bought a nice new rifle when I saw the torture photos. I have joined a group that
is training and getting ready for the big show. Two weeks ago one of our guys killed a cop HAHAHAHAHA with a knife so it just shows some of us are getting ready for the show. We are learning to make bombs, gather signals intelligence and r00t0r the enemy in all threat environments. I took all my investments out of America and I don't do business there anymore. I am also learning to be very discriminative about Jews. We all have to start with our own little circles of influence and work together to destroy Bush and his torturers.

Most military people are gimps LOL your government doesn't care what happens to you. Militaries are just meat grinding machines for governments. Their little medals and statues and shit actually makes them think it's worthwhile to "die for freedom" and all that shit. Go ahead trust your government and do what they say LOL and see what becomes of you. Even when you bomb people with no shoes you are losing big time. High quality people don't go die in other people's wars, they are too busy enjoying themselves and fighting their own.

So everbody get lots of guns and ammo and get ready for the show, if you want to survive you gotta keep your mind alive...

I ROOTED THE WHITE HOUSE SWITCHBOARD

In all of history, most all mothers feel as you do in general regarding this issue. That is our job to protect that what is so precious to us. But at some point we must let go, put our own wishes and wants aside, and support or sons as they embark on their personal quest what ever that may be. This is very very hard to do even when they do not chose a adventure that puts them in harms way.
In your story, you mention little of what your son thinks and wishes. I am most interested in that aspect.
It seems as though your sister's son has made his choice. This is an age where young men must break away from their parents and find their own way, if they are to become independant and fulfilled men. My son is 19, and I fully understand your pain and delima. He is majoring in Aeronautical Science at an aeronautical and aerospace university and is seriously considering a future in the military. He made it all the way to the last cut the spring of his senior year in high school to the Naval Academy. He was heart broken. That is what he wants. My husband and I would much rather he chose a civilian occupation. But for selfish reasons, that is what we want.
My advise to you is to share your thoughts with him and give him unbias and factual information so he can make an educated decision. Most importantly, support him what ever his decision is. When the phone calls come for HIM.......take a message. Give him the message and share your thoughts and conserns. You will empower him by doing this.
War is one of the terrible realities of life and very complex. The military is a most noble and unselfish choice, requireing a great deal of courage. Not much of that is going on in the civilian population in the times we currently live in.
Always remember how you feel now when you meet those who serve or have served, parents of actaul soldiers, or when issues arise regarding the support of our troops. What you say, and how you act, matters a great deal.
Good luck with your son.

All Navy personnel are leaving the country, ALL ships presently docked around the mainland are leaving for open waters in response to an imminent disaster coming on 20 June 2004. British troops are underground in Mexico. The U.S. Treasury is printing Trillions of Dollars and the Presidential staff are going to Mount Weather for this event.

For more information Go to www.surfingtheapocalypse.com and read about the many signs of this pending disaster.

I spent almost 20 years in the Army and this is very highly unusual. It's not only the U.S. Navy, but almost all allies are sending their troops out to sea also.

It would benefit you also to investigate the Government called HAARP (High-Frequency Active Auroral Research Project) I believe this will have a major role in the events to come.

I am fully aware that this thread is not fully related to this topic, But this IS something that ALL AMERICANS must be aware of! Your life may depend on it!!

provide a link to this info please, and perhaps as a military man you could explain why you think that the military are leaving the country and how you propose people defend their lives.

Hello,

Sidebar: right out of high school, I contemplated going into the Air Force. I spoke with the salesman (sorry...recruiter) and everything. The thing that stopped me was the realization that, as young and stupid as I was, the people that would be put in charge of my life (and, indeed, possible death) could be even *dumber* and there would not be a damn thing I could do about it. I'm sure that just about every soldier/sailor/airman/marine can tell you a tale of at least one insufferably stupid superior officer that they had to put up with. That insight pretty much took care of any hankering for the military life.

Anyway...

"Mom for Peace" made a good suggestion when she recommended having the kid read "War is a Racket" by Smedley Butler. Mr. Butler was a winner of the Congressional Medal of Honor. Actually, a *two* time winner of the Medal of Honor. Quite a man. His book describes how, after many years of waging war, he realized that all he had done was make other people rich while the bodies (and minds) of those around him were destroyed. A brief passage:

>In the government hospital in Marion, Indiana, 1,800 of these boys [veterans of the >First World War] are in pens! Five hundred of them in a barracks with steel bars and >wires all around outside the buildings and on the porches. These already have been >mentally destroyed. These boys don't even look like human beings. Oh, the looks on >their faces! Physically, they are in good shape; mentally, they are gone.

"Mom for Peace" gave a link for it. If that link doesn't work, just Google for it. There are quite a few e-texts floating around.

"Beatnik" made a good suggestion also: having your sister's son check out the local VA hospital. The way I look at it is: if you're grown up enough to join the military, you're also grown up enough to bear witness to the cost of war, too.

I think that seeing people with minds and bodies blown away (sorry...) may help take the polish off all of that Hollywood Soldering that the recruiters are exposing him to.

If you can't arrange a visit to the VA (or the kid won't go) try this:

>>In 1924, the German anarchist and pacifist Ernst Friedrich published one of the great >>anti-war classics, War Against War!. Outraged by the slaughter of the Great War (now >>known as World War I), Friedrich gathered pictures of battlefield butchery and >>mutilated soldiers. Juxtaposed with propagandistic pictures of military "glory" and >>labeled with ironic, sarcastic captions, these photographs showed, and continue to >>show, the reality of war in all its sickening horror.

You can view excerpts from the text (and some pictures) at:

 http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/waw.html

WARNING: THE PICTURES FEATURED ON THIS PAGE ARE *EXTREMELY* GRAPHIC. PLEASE MAKE SURE THAT YOUR "LITTLE ONES" ARE NOT IN THE ROOM WHEN YOU CLICK ON THE PICTURE LINKS. THE PICTURES ARE THE STUFF OF NIGHTMARES. THIS IS NOT A JOKE, FOLKS.

The first couple of picures are comparatively mild (for the page, that is). The third one featured, "After war: The Crown Prince and the injured soldier" is, um, "thought provoking." As for the last four, featuring battlefield injuries and disfigurements, well...let's just say that those photos are best seen on an empty stomach.

While these pictures are old, their ability to shock is as potent as ever. Unfortunately, a great many of the wounded coming back from Iraq (4,700 at last count...) will look like those in the book. Plastic surgey can only do so much and we haven't mastered the art of growing back faces or limbs yet.

The excerpts featured on thememoryhole.org page should be enough to get your point across. However, Peace rebel girl, if your sister feels strongly enough about this to want to buy a copy of the book, try the link below. The original book is long out of print, but Amazon offers newer editions (that are still relatively rare). The cheapest one they had listed as of 6/1 was forty-four dollars. That's a lot of money for a book. She'll have to decide for herself if obtaining a copy is something she'd want to do.

 link to www.amazon.com


Folks, please give this woman a couple days head start in case she wants to pick this book up. This is a rare, out of print book and the next two cheapest ones listed are $60 and $100, respectively. There is a young life at stake here, which is why I'm making the effort to post all of this.

Oh, and while I think of it...the front page of thememoryhole.org has pictures of the coffins coming back from Iraq (scroll to the bottom of the page). From what I understand, the military is rather, um, uneasy about these images being released. I cannot imagine why...

Shameless Plug: If you find the site of use, please throw a buck or two their way. thememoryhole.org does an outstanding job of making information available to the Whole World that "they" (corporations, governments, the military, etc.) don't want you to see. They're worth supporting in these times of lies and half-truths.

Right, end of plug.

One last thing: the next time anyone talks about how the military helps to fight for/safeguard our freedom of speech, refer them to the excerpt below, taken from the site's May 28th blog. I think this is highly instructional as far as informing us about what we're really "fighting for" in Iraq.


Cheers (and Best of Luck with your struggle)

James F.


May 28, 2004
The Memory Hole Banned in Iraq

I've received email from a person with an [army.mil] address. This person is stationed in Iraq, and he/she tells me that The Memory Hole is blocked on military computers. Trying to get to the site results in the following message:

>Access Denied (content_filter_denied)

>Your request was denied because of its content categorization: >"Extreme;Politics/Religion"

>For assistance, contact your network support team.

How interesting. I post raw documents created by the government, military, and corporations. These days, that apparently amounts to "political extremism."

Naturally, I've filed a FOIA request about this blocking.

Murderers???? Who american soilders, I think not! Do not fire unless fired upon......a long standing order.. The murderers are the terriosts that attack american civilions. But all you anti war bleeding hearts forgot about our brothers and sisters that died the horrible day. I said it before and I will say it again. If you dont like it here in america GET THE F OUT!!! Maybe Canada or Mexico..... You take your freedom for granted and because of that you dont understand what the military is trying to do for others. Lets also remember that every soilder in service right now volenteered. There is no draft right now and I doubt there will be. I have lost good friends in this fight and I am disgusted on how you all would rather talk down on them rather than support them. If you dont agree with the war that is your right. Dont take it out on the soilder, change the policy makers not the enforcers.
And to the one known as ? what war did americans die for the bill of rights. How about the revolutionary war......You know the one that made Amereica, America!!!!

Peace rebel girl,
My husband and I do not have children but your article spoke to me on so many levels. My husband enlisted in the military after falling for the propangadistic story he was told about his duty and what a great experience it would be. Almost three years later now he still has horrific nightmares about his experience, not quite the day camp they told him it would be. The isolation, mindf---ing and the sickness still haunt him. The lies these young boys are told is bad enough but when you stop to realize that our "leaders" who so desperately want war do not fight themselves makes it that much worse. Wouldn't it be wonderful if everyone just said "no, if you want to invade a country based on lies you grab a gun and go fight." "Send YOUR children to a foreign country to risk their lives for oil and defense contracts, then watch them come back completely messed up while their benefits get cut." It is sickening to tell women that they should be happy that they are raising children to grow up and become canon fodder for a rich man's war.

You said that the U.S. Military doesn't fire unless fired upon. Exactly when did Iraq "fire upon" us? Please provide a date and location, because I must have missed it. What makes me sick, is people like you who would exploit the deaths of thousands on Sept 11th for your own ends, attempting to justify an illegal war.

"I'd rather lose it all than to see my son fall"

How many lives must be lost in a war of false pretexts? How long before all the soldiers refuse to fight? The path of a soldier is one of the quickest to the path of peace, but it is a treacherous path. Many soldiers will not realize until after their service what a great disservice was done to them. I hope those like "freedom fighter" will awaken to the harsh reality sooner rather than later.

"Do not fire unless fired upon......a long standing order"
 http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/video1/aztlan_thief_host_your_own_video_iraqiwar.wmv
 http://www.kather.org/HomeSecure/Apache_Mission_in_Iraq.avi

And not to say this is unique to Iraq or to US soldiers. But we have seen the same thing in every other conflict the US has been involved in; and it is disgraceful, dishonorable, and shameful.

"what war did americans die for the bill of rights. How about the revolutionary war......You know the one that made Amereica, America!!!!"

The question was when did American soldiers die for the bill of rights. The revolutionary war was not fought by American soldiers. It was fought by British colonists resisting occupation (much the same way that the Iraqis are resisting occupation today). The whole point was that we didn't have a standing army, and if Jefferson had had his way part of the bill of rights would have been a prohibition on having a standing army. The logic being that the citizens of a country would always rally to its self-defense (hence the 2nd amendment allowing the right to bare arms in order to form a militia) but that a standing army could too easily be marched to war to benefit the king and the aristocracy at the expense of the people. Jefferson was on to something; and that was over 200 years ago.

"I have lost good friends in this fight and I am disgusted on how you all would rather talk down on them rather than support them."

Of course, your friends, and mine, would be alive right now if we hadn't gone to war over the lie of the threat of Iraq. Of course, Dick Cheney couldn't have given control of Iraq's oil to the company which still pays him; but that's a trade-off I felt comfortable with when I did everything in my power to keep soldiers in the military from dying in a senseless war that has done substantial harm to people in this country and around the world and has only benefited the aristocracy of the US. If you can't see that as support than I feel sorry for you.

"There is no draft right now and I doubt there will be."

And if there is will it change your mind? Next year there will be some form of draft, guaranteed. Talk is either of calling up those who have already left the service or a selective skills draft. A more general draft is not yet being discussed.

Of course, given the growing sentiment that the war on Iraq was a mistake perhaps something can be done before more are sent to die needlessly.

One thing that rarely makes it into the mainstream media, but is very encouraging for non-Americans to see, is that there are a huge number of ordinary American citizans who are EXTREMELY concerned about the way their country is being dragged by the current US government, the most odious US government we've ever seen.

I have always found it startling how blindly patriotic a lot of Americans seem to be. The notion of a European leader (even Tony Blair) giving a speech to his/her nation and ending by saying (e.g.) "May God continue to bless the United Kingdom/Germany/France" is utterly absurd, and would never happen. But it's quite normal stuff to hear coming from the mouth of a US president, particularly George W Bush. And this new word "unAmerican" being bandied about by politicians and the corporate media is most sinister.

America IS a great nation. And its greatest strength may yet lie in the vast moral resources of its ordinary citizens. I hope to live to see the day when America takes its rightful place on the world stage as a MORAL leader; using the strength that it must draw from the innate goodness of its people to lead by example, by compassion and understanding. America has the power, strength and resource, and its people have the moral vision and generosity (albeit temporarily hijacked by jingoistic "patriot" politicians) to be the greatest force for good that this planet has ever seen.

Instrumental in that must be your Bill of Rights and Constitution. The advanced vision of your founding fathers -- that of a government of the people, by the people, for the people -- has long since fallen by the wayside. You as a nation are on the brink of losing your freedoms -- you are seeing examples of this in the "Patriot" Act. But you still have your Bill of Rights and Constitution -- for the planet's sake we need to see your founding fathers' vision brought to reality before you lose your B.o.R. and Constitution altogether.

But look up -- don't dispair at the murky stuff that's going on at the moment. As people we can all make an effort to work as forces for good in our individual lives -- and changes for good only ever happens from the bottom up. And when all is said and done, remember:

"As you view the world, remember that the black patches of evil which you see are shown against a white background of ultimate good."
The Urantia Book, p. 2076.

It's late now, and I'm not being very coherent but please have a look at this book:  http://www.we-the-people-book.com

Thanks for listening.

*Yours in solidarity*

the outpouring of support here is beautiful, and exactly what is needed for us to, as English bloke in London, UK says, "reclaim [y]our country!!" There are some great comments and helpful suggestions here, along with a few ignorant remarks that have no basis in reality, nor do they fruitfully address the issue(s) at hand.

i too get so tired of hearing 'they hate us for our freedom". they hate us because we steal their freedom, their resources and their lives from them, plain and simple.

Mom: I too am a Freedom Fighter! YES, we fight for our freedom in many ways, including dialoguing on issues like this together!

Mind_Cemetary: perhaps the sort of love you are referring to (as an emotion) is the conditioned sort; the fickle romanticized "love" that we fall in and out of. The LOVE i am speaking of is an action, not a passive emotion, and one that requires diligence and commitment. the kind of love that i am talking about is the love without conditions, one that goes far beyond loving what we adore to loving what we abhor, such as our enemy. from the dalai lama:

"Loving people make love, rather than hate, murder, or war. One who has found love, values and honors love, peace, and abundance attempts to enhance it. Such a person is motivated by such stirrings deeply from their core. As such peace is not passivity, but active -- it is the activity of love. Such people would not honor systems that create scarcity, competition, stealing from others, comparative advantage, war, or strife. Similarly, people who love and honor freedom do not enslave, oppress, nor support totalitarian police states, rather they become engaged in wise activities which liberate, remove suffering, heal, and celebrate a life wedded in Great Spirit."

"Yes, it is too easy to talk "about" the negative (hate, greed, fear, and selfishness) in the world and condemn it; or on the other hand glorify the perfection of love as a spiritual process on the other; but the real challenge is in bringing the love and joy through where it is absent -- grounding and manifesting spirit in everyday life -- embodying love and spirit here upon the earth..."

"Processes based on love and peace do not encourage nor reward suffering, comparative advantage, greed, jealousy, adversity, hatred, fear, competition, strife, and more confusion. It doesn't take a genius to figure this out, but it does require a healthy mind and a good heart. It requires some degree of awareness and sanity as well. It is taken as a given (a priori) that people collectively moved by transpersonal universal love are capable of moving mountains -- that when we act motivated by the universal non-dual Source (Great Integrity) acting in alignment and harmony with the natural joy of spirit, healing, abundance, wealth, peace, then true happiness manifests. This basic assumption of a natural altruistic ambition forms a most powerful momentum of its own. It opposes the perverse idea that man must be motivated by the whip, by scarcity, conflict, competition, fear, intimidation, greed, threat, or negative ambition."

and re your question of my "class privilege", it is not a prerequisite for understanding the dynamic power of love; indeed people from all classes and nations can embrace and embody this basic yet profound law of the universe.

so true, the war in iraq has nothing to do with the freedom of aMEricans! we all know what this racist oil war is about.

Melba Toast: my son is well versed and quite informed re what the military represents, conclusions that he reached on his own. in fact, he is often the one who informs me of things; as an example, he told me about the "memorial day" show on 60 minutes where andy rooney uses the opportunity to speak on the heinousness of war. i hope that your son will also be able to see through the deception of what is being disguised as "honor". there are so many ways to do honorable deeds. working in a soup kitchen and feeding the hungry is an admirable place to start.

Thank you Mom for Peace and James Frazier for the excellent book suggestions. Imagery is a powerful way to see the madness of war. anyone who saw the photographs from the Iraqi prisons will attest to that.

a friend to many soldiers: the video clip of the killing of the Iraqi is beyond chilling, as is the cheering of the soldiers and the comment made by the young soldier who said that killing him was "awesome". this is the sort of mentality that frightens me when a bunch of young testosterone-ridden boys get together to play with their guns. (i was not able to open the second video link?)

lost woman: my heart goes out to you and your husband. may he find peace. May we all find peace!

My son is also being harrassed by recruiters. Also some Latinos in Torrington, CT are being told that if they have received any kind of assistance from the state (welfare,foodstamps,etc.), it is their obligation to join. They are scared of not complying because they don't understand their rights. I told them they do not have this obligation at this time but to be mindful that we are losing all of our rights and will all become slaves unless we wake up and fight back against this Bush regime.

I am undergoing precisely the same situation you and your sister have. I have two sons, 17 and 18 years old. The eldest is chomping at the bit to join a branch of the military. We have gone around and around for well over two years on this issue. The recruiters started calling him when he was barely in his junior year. A Marine and an Army recruiter had visited his high school on separate occasions and he came home pumped up and the level has not stopped. We two went through a period of estrangement, where he avoided me like the plague. He has since opened the lines of communication again, but he has not abated in his desire to fall in behind Bush's march to Baghdad. I come from a family with generations of military men; so anti-war sentiment is new to my family and also to me. I do not want my son dead or maimed for life in a war that has been propped up by lies from the beginning. Tell me the truth! Tell my son the truth and tell the American people the truth! Stop the secrecy! Send the journalists and tv crews to Andrews Air Force Base where the returning sons and daughters of America's mothers are disembarked in metal boxes and then...then let my son see what war really is and what it produces. Andrews Air Force Base is a good lesson in teaching my son that real war is not a tv production, a Hollywood movie or a video game where you can press SAVE and start all over again the next day. I do not care for the directors and promoters of wars who lie to me, hide the truth from me and refuse to let the American people see the costs of war and then have the temetry to ask my son to die for Halliburon, Kellogg-Brown & Root, while millions are thrown out of work, corporations are outsourcing the good paying jobs and stealing the working man/woman's pension. If we are fighting to preserve and defend America's liberties and freedom, then start with dumping the Patriot Act and start again with legislation that stops the influx of illegals across our borders; drops the delicate PC approach to those we might offend (Sept 11 was offensive to me and all Americans) and stop using the Act as an excuse to gut the Bill of Rights and undermine the Constitution. You want my son to die for America? Then return the America that generations died to protect and preserve! My son's blood is of more value and of more infinate worth than all the oil in Iraq. He's my son!

================
perhaps the sort of love you are referring to (as an emotion) is the conditioned sort; the fickle romanticized "love" that we fall in and out of.
The LOVE i am speaking of is an action, not a passive emotion, and one that requires diligence and commitment.
================

The fact is that I have presented NO definition of love, be it an emotion or an action. Regardless of what ambiguous definition we give to the term "love", the fact still stands that when an adversary is utterly DETERMINED to slaughter you and/or any number of your fellow human beings, no amount of "love" is going to stop them.

================
and re your question of my "class privilege", it is not a prerequisite for understanding the dynamic power of love; indeed people from all classes and nations can embrace and embody this basic yet profound law of the universe.
================

Straw Man fallacy. I never *said* that people from all classes can't embrace nonviolence. I said that it is easy for *you* and others from a similar class background to embrace nonviolence when you have never really been subjected to any sort of genuine suffering (at least when comparedto some of the more truly downtrodden in this world. To illustrate more clearly how your above argument fails to refute my position, let me express more clearly how the argument that *presented* can be distinguished from the one to which you *responded*: your argument *begins* with someone of a less privleged background than your own and then concludes that they are just as able (at least in theory) to embrace nonviolence as you are. However, *my* argument began with someone from a *privleged* and then concluded that *they* are in no position to tell someone less fortunate than themself for not behaving nonviolently despite being subjected to constant brutal violence by an attacker. What is interesting about your above statement is how you simply *assume* that the position you have taken is one that you have arrived at because there is something that you "understand" that others do not. This, of course, outright *ignores* the possibility that maybe you arrived at your position due to something that *you* have failed to understand.

On our way to the mess hall morning, noon and night we sang that cadence in 1983. The U.S. military was preparing us to kill Salvadorans. They wanted us to think of them as less than human. One of the goals of military training is to prepare you to kill; another is to prepare you to follow orders. The combination of de-humanizing the enemy and becoming subservient to the chain of command leaves many soldiers capable of torture.

entire story:


 http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/051504A.shtml

ultimate social security lies not in democracy,but anarchy ,the gradual withering away of the secular state.for to the degree that men are free unafiliated individualists, then to that degree do they remain free from the winds of enchantment that blow ancient blood lusts from archaic caves. robert w marks

Jeremy Hinzman was a soldier in the 82nd Airborne Division. He and his family arrived in Toronto in January 2004 and are currently seeking refugee status. Brandon Hughey, a 19-year-old American soldier, arrived in St. Catharines two months later and is also seeking refugee status. If they are returned to the US, they face persecution.

Many experts are predicting a return to a US draft, regardless of who wins the US election. Many Canadians have begun rallying to the aid of Americans who are resisting, by urging their government to make provision for US war objectors to have sanctuary in Canada:

www.punditman.com

You know what makes me sick............People like you who would rather forget about the attack on american civilians rather than find and capture those responsible....how can you call yourself and american......

That's right, we went into Iraq because of 9/11, despite what Bush says. Keep ignorant, you seem to like it that way.

If you were truly concerned about 9/11 maybe you should get off your ass and find out why Bush has stonewalled the 9/11 investigation. I'm sure it's not because the administration has anything to hide, like their multiple warnings of the impending attacks from intelligence communities in the US and around the world. Warnings that caused the administration to take action to protect themselves (Ashcroft stopped flying commercial planes, Cheney had a bunker built) but not to protect the citizens of the US.

And why would they keep quiet about the terrorist threat and then prevent any investigation into their actions (or lack there-of), just look in the mirror. Now they have a bunch of ignorant citizens living in fear making them extremely easy to control. Real americans are not cowards. We do not live in fear. We do not allow our government to do as it pleases. If you are so afraid of terrorists join the military or cower in your house and let the real americans deal with these issues.

Why is it that you gung-ho warmongers don't have a problem with the fact that NONE of the administration in office SERVED in the armed services? What is it that you don't GET about 9-11? What is it that you don't get about the Bill of Rights and the Constitution? What is it that you don't get about the differences between a war and an invasion?

I know that I am speaking to a very warped toxic specimen, those who don't get it...
What I get is that there are a lot of suicidal/homicidal psychopaths who are eager under the cloak of god and country to kill and be killed and ruin the planet with all the deadly filthy poisons the war machine manifests in its process from start to finish the war machine is black and it is death PERIOD. You want to associate with black death, lies, killing, torture and all from the same government that you swear to serve? Mothers of boys who are interested in 'being all that they can be' be worried that your child is suicidal/homicidal mentally ill. If he isn't already-he will be once he gets a taste of the action.

You are psychopaths because you want the rest of us WHO CAN SEE AND WHO GET IT to revere/respect your actions that are based on mentally ill premises. The cloak of Christianity is not large enough to cover your darkness. The freedoms we are entitled to as citizens of this country need protecting from mentally ill morons.

Anti-war does not mean passive or weak or meek or cowardly. This is not a war that is being perpetrated on the peoples around the world by our TAXPAID PUBLIC EMPLOYEES they are illegal invasions-to conquer the locals-to rape,pillage and plunder-based on lies and manipulations of the masses. But if you have fallen for it you have dark ulterior motivations.

I am in the military I have been since 98. I do not live in fear.....fear is for the weak minded. I dont argue the fact that the administration had numerous warnings of the attack, I think just about everyone in america knows that. I am not defending Bush or his people. I am disgusted by the way people are talking as if our military is just a bunch of heartless robots. That is not the case. Yes we take orders and do what are leaders tell us, however you go into any place of business in america whether it is McDonalds or Intel and you will see the same thing. Everyone has a boss, if you dont listen to him/her you will be with out a job. Mindless robots, no, just good employees. Dont hate me because I belive in America and for what we stand for. Bush is my boss untill someone else becomes the president. I said it before, dont hate the enforcers we do what our president asks of us.

Well soldier you just reinforced your robotic status. You "just follow orders,everyone has a boss, follow orders or you will be fired, just doing my job, George Bush is my boss until he is replaced".

That's the whole thing in a paragraph-your orders might be to take out a village-your job might be to run over somebody's head! A job is not just a job-it's an adventure.

In the real world, if you had an inbred monster as your boss and he said to kill or die, you would call the police and then you would quit, and then you would tell everyone you knew what your boss ordered you to do with the added insult of threatening you with your job. Sounds like a good workers comp case to me.

In the real world if you witnessed others killing- you would call the police and report everything you knew hoping the killers would be captured and imprisoned.

In the real world if you applied for a job as a cashier and were hired and then found out that no, your real job would be to go to a foreign country and dismantle bombs or drop bombs or use a tank to crush strangers, after you were forced to take unknown medications and umpteen vaccinations you would either quit this job and run and hide and demand that the hiring employer account for their lies and tricks and damage done to you and your body or else you would do your job with righteous gusto and then when called on for your actions tell the truth and defend YOUR actions with" yeah, I did it but it was my JOB- I didn't like it but they were my bosses, I would get fired if I didn't do what I was told".

The courts didn't go for it in Nuremburg...where the real corporate criminals got away with it, but the grunts who did the dirty work were imprisoned or hung by their ankles for it. Who wants to do the Mussolini this time?

If people join the military and think that they will not go to war then they are ignorant. When you sign on the dotted line you must realize that your job is a soilder. Soilders go to war. There should never be a person in the military that doesnt think they will be called upon to fight and die if need be. That is what we do. Every soilder today has made a choice to serve there country, no one has been forced into the military. The choice ultimitly falls on the person. Just because you dont join doesnt mean that you can look down upon us. with out us America would not be what it is today. I really dont care what any of you think of me. The military helps not only america but the world. No one seems to mind when the US military is used in NATO missions. Hell most of any NATO force is America.

wow look at the time, my eyes are killin me from reading all of the comments u people all seem to know so much about politics, i mean right wing, left wing, liberalism, comunism, anarchy, nationalism????
but u know what i learnt, that the people of america are not blind!!! i dnt mean that in any kind of a bad way i mean it like the people of america are not all for war!!!!!!!!!!!!! woww yayy and some of u are anti bush!
u know hw they make it out on the news is like all of america love bush and we're all like thinking hw can they be behind someone who just kills peole because that is what war is about!! and the nerve of getting other peopleeee to fight your war! if president really wnt a war they should pull up their sleeves and fight their war them selves-wouldnt that be sumthing??

i cnt believe that anyone would back a war - and let me be the first to tell you if you dont know that THE MAJORITY OF THE BRITISH PUBLIC ARE AGAINST WAR!! they've been so many demonstrations and we all skipped college to campaign -although it didnt do very much, but tony blair will never be elected again so shame on him. i hope that bush is never elected again but is the next president gona be any differnt? i hope so, what americas president does effects the whole world!! and the UN? is america!!

there seems to be no justice in the world, and ive been reading about free masons lately [people like madonna and matt groening are masons!] boy its just so freaky - WHAT IS GOING ON IN THE WORLD!

just live your life peacefully with respect and no prejudices, and hopefuly that'l influence others to do the same

i hope ur nephew will wise up and first knoww what he is fighting for before he goes to fight for it - cos war aint pretty, hes probably got this romanticised picture in his mind, but at the end of the day u cant force him to change his mind, but hopefuly he will

Wow...

I saw a movie last week that certainly warrants viewing. It's called, "All the King's Men."

There's a review of the movie here:  http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/511491.stm
But the review doesn't really do the movie justice.

Without giving anything away, the film is about the Sandringham Company in WWI. The Company was made up exclusively of workers from the Norfolk estate of King George V. They was sent to Gallipoli for their first battle. Legend had it that as they pushed off for the attack, a low-lying cloud engulfed the Company and lifted them to heaven; whatever actually happened, they were never seen again after the battle.

If it sounds like an intriguing premise, it is.

I saw this purely by accident. It was shown as a Masterpiece Theatre offering on the local PBS station. I know that MT has a reputation for stuffy, boring dramas, but believe me when I tell you that this is simply not the case here. Some parts of it are definitely rated "R," so those of you with little ones may want to pre-screen it, first, to make sure you feel comfortable with your kids seeing it.

As much as I hate M$, this link allows you to buy the movie on eBay, rent it via Netflix, or compare prices on the DVD. It also has another synopsis of the film:
 http://entertainment.msn.com/movies/movie.aspx?m=30662

Anyway, check it out. It's a d*mn fine film...

Freedom Fighter:
"I am in the military...I do not live in fear.....fear is for the weak minded..."

There can be no courage without fear.


Also remember... those you call your enemies are human beings first and foremost...
And know that anyone can die, but it takes true courage to live.

Freedom Figher:
"Now you dont want your son to join, you wont allow it. Sounds to me like you are raising a coward, not a man."

Say those words to the mother of Martin Luther King Jr. MLK's words ,that opposed the war, changed more than a million guns ever will. Call Martin Luther King Jr a coward, he wont let anyone bring him down so low as to hate them. MLK was most certainly a man...but was he a coward aswell? You can be either... or both... and still change the world. It is how you do it that displays your character and shows which stands above the others.

You may fight in the same way... but instead with a gun, where you can wield fear and threats (your power, and everyone knows power corrupts) to manipulate others.(And you believe yourself not to be a coward) Is this any better than putting a gun to somones head and demanding cooperation for your demands or superiors demands?

This is my story... but there are billions of others with their own.

I did not raise my son to be a soilder. But he made a choice, after my husband and my self begged him not to.
I read your story,it brought tears to my eyes. I do not beleive any of our sons should fight a war and especially this one. My son is heasding back to Iraq for his 2nd tour of duty along with his wife, and my husband and I will be taken care of a 4 year old little girl that does not understand why her moomy and daddy have left her with grandma and grandpa. Should looked up and me yesterday and said"grandma I hope my moomy and daddy will be ok, I hope they do not die. I felt like some one ripped my heawrt right out.

God Bless Our TROOPS

its okay. i know your thinking my sons in the military its is most deffinatly not alright. but when he gets out you will know that your son risked his life for our country. that is an honor in an honor. i know that you are so proud of what he has done. i am in 9th grade so i dont exactly know how you feel. but i know that you are scared. an happy at the same time. all i can say is that god has a plan for your son and to pray, thats the best thing that i can think of you to do. may god be with you and your son through these hard times.

'i didn't raise my son to be a soldier' makes the difference in my heart and mind .somethin in the air though

Anyone have the music score for I didn't raise my son to be a soldier?? We want to re-use it in our suffrage celebrations. Banned in World War One here

I would very like to know if anyone has a copy of the score I Didn't Raise My Son To Be a Soldier. WILPF in Brisbane, Australia, are planning activities for International Women's Day and would like to sing the song as part of the activities. It was very popular (though banned)during the turbulent anti-conscription campaign in Brisbane during WWI.

I would very like to know if anyone has a copy of the score I Didn't Raise My Son To Be a Soldier. WILPF in Brisbane, Australia, are planning activities for International Women's Day and would like to sing the song as part of the activities. It was very popular (though banned)during the turbulent anti-conscription campaign in Brisbane during WWI.

While looking for something else for my son who serves in USAF I came across this article and I read what you had to say. I can completely sympathize and understand your mother's instinct to protect your son. When my son came to me in his senior year of high school and told me he wanted to join the Marines...the bottom dropped out of my heart. I did not stand silently by nor did I willingly pat him on the back and congratulate him on his choice. I did sit him down and we had a long discussion. He agreed to explore all of his options before he made any decisions. Not long after, he joined the delayed entry program for the United States Air Force. My mother's heart screamed in rebellion, and over the course of many months we had MANY conversations about his choice, was he SURE, he could change his mind, and I prayed he would, But his mind was made up. It was about the time you wrote this that I sent my son off to basic training and it was one of the HARDEST days of my life. BUT, I knew this would be difficult enough on him and I LOVE MY SON and wasn't about to make it more difficult for him by being unsupportive. My son's job as a United States Airman is to protect the security of this country, he works with many many men and women who work everyday to keep this country safe from things like what happened on 9/11. Do I agree with this war?, no. Do I support the men and women who serve this country...yes. Because if not for their CHOICE to serve, this article you wrote would not be about your outrage that your son was asked to serve, but your fury that his choice was taken from him. It is because of the choice my son and many many other sons and daughters like him that your son still has the right to make that choice.

I respect your right to have your opinion and hope you can respect mine, afterall isn't that what freedom is all about?