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9.11 investigation

Amy Goodman and the CIA

Dear Amy Goodman:

We, the undersigned, would like to state that the recent (5/26/04) appearance of David Ray Griffin on Democracy Now! (DN) repudiates every principle of press freedom that you claim to represent. It was a shameful betrayal to the movements opposing the Bush() Regime around the globe.

First of all, it is very revealing that you chose to have Griffin appear on your show in a hostile "debate" format. This contrasted remarkably from the easy, non-confrontational (and extended) interviews recently given to Richard Clarke, Peter Lance and Sibel Edwards. (Richard Clarke is a "defector" from the Bush Regime. Peter Lance is an author. Edwards is a "whistle-blower". All three uniquely advocate the official story of 911.) The clear implication is that DN is biased in favor of sources who advocate the official propaganda of the State.
Second, while Chip Berlet's affiliation with the Political Research Associates (PRA) was made known, you failed to mention the controversy related to PRA's alleged ties to the Ford Foundation:
 http://tinyurl.com/yuptu

It is also known that the Ford Foundation has a long-term connection with Democracy Now and Pacifica generally:
 http://www.questionsquestions.net/feldman/feldman01.html

Recall that the Ford Foundation has been reportedly linked to the CIA for decades. By specifically choosing Berlet to challenge Griffin this episode of Democracy Now! strongly resembles a CIA propaganda campaign.

Third, Berlet's major contention against Griffin's book is that Griffin is relying on experts who lack the qualifications to offer opinions about basic engineering and physics. So why not have on an expert promoting the official science of the Bush Regime with one of the many researchers who dispute it? We are appalled by Democracy Now's guest Berlet demanding that Griffin defend the scientific work of researchers who have never been invited to appear on your program.

Fourth, Berlet specifically (and very crudely) dismissed the crucial research of "Holmgren" (i.e., Gerard Holmgren). If Democracy Now! does not invite Holmgren on to defend his highly significant work then it is working on behalf of no democracy that has ever existed.

Fifth, during Griffin's ordeal he made many important points concerning specific anomalies with 911 (e.g., the Pentagon, WTC 7, etc.) that were ignored by Berlet. When will these be addressed on your program?

Lastly, we'd like to emphatically state that the science which disputes the official story of 911 can be understood by almost every high school graduate in your audience. By having Berlet and Goodman both dismiss Griffin's sources because they lack some unspecified credentials Democracy Now! seemed medieval. Surely DN can no longer claim to represent "Resistance Radio" when it discourages its audience from making the most basic of inquiries about the innumerable flaws with the official story of 911.

Until Democracy Now reexamines what happened on 9/11/01 with some intellectual integrity we will regard you and your program to be speaking on behalf of the CIA. To quote the Clash, you are solidly "Working for the Clampdown."

Sincerely,

Scott Loughrey

--on behalf of 911 researchers:

Gerard Holmgren
John Kaminski
Rosalee Grable (a.k.a., the Web Fairy)
Jeffrey G Strahl

scratch a liberal... 29.May.2004 01:18

-

...find a fascist.

the establishment "Left", including the intellectual and oh-so-clever and somewhat stuck-on-herself Amy Goodman, has purposely missed the train on the 9/11 investigation issue. she and her kind are so afraid of "how it will look" if they question the official theory (which is a pack of lies) that they go so far as to attack anyone who attacks it. fucking pathetic.

yeah, she does good work sometimes, but when it really counts, she bails. typical liberal.

Yeah, I listened to it too 29.May.2004 01:35

PHH

I was a big fan of DN, but that was a real disappointment.


Alternative meta-conspiracy explanation 29.May.2004 08:01

Spastica Rex

Amy Goodman is actually an infiltrated operative who's objective is to undermine the carefully crafted, liberal facade of DN. In other words, by showing *any* recognition of alternative explanations to 911, she is chipping away at the wall erected by the Ford foundation, Soros, et al. The only way her supposed "masters" would allow Griffin and his questions on the show was in the form of a public flogging. However, the flogging was uninteresting at best and whiney at worst and listeners were reminded that there are still nagging questions surrounding the incident.

It was a brilliant double-cross!

Amy is probably working for the French...

In all seriousness,

I really laughed when Berlet got all rightous when nit picking the speed of F-15s. To paraphrase:

"Just becasue an F-15 has a maximum speed of 1800 MPH doesn't mean they can accelerate to that speed immediately. If they could, that would kill the pilot!"

So, if F-15s can't instantly accelerate to their maximum speed, it is impossible that they could have intercepted the airliners. That is just a childish attempt to dismiss that particular problem.

ludricrous 29.May.2004 09:18

not a DN supporter

"By specifically choosing Berlet to challenge Griffin this episode of Democracy Now! strongly resembles a CIA propaganda campaign."

ludicruous jumps in logic.

JUST BECAUSE SHE'S A LEFTIST POSEUR DOESN'T MEAN SHE'S CIA.

conspiracy nuts 29.May.2004 09:44

cia agent

so, anyone who doesn't agree with your lame conspiracy theories is part of the conspiracy, is that how it works? you people need to get back on your meds.

To CIA agent 29.May.2004 10:15

Hoover

It is the government story that is lame. If you have anything that will make their case, I'm sure everybody would like to see. If you think the case against the government is lame, then let's see what you got.

And BTW, why was there never an investigation? I mean a REAL investigation?

Yeah CIA Agent 29.May.2004 10:18

Leroy Brown

Let's see what you got.

Goodman NOT the only one. 29.May.2004 12:03

Craig n Ward

Local boy Craig, makes it painfully obvious in his books. U.S. government is completely left out of implacation, in rgards to evidence of internal gpvernment planning and execution. 2 planes causing 3 buildings collasping in text book demolition fashion right next to eachother is completely a coincedence, maybe I am supposed to believe. Don't even mention Oklahoma. "Working for the CLAMPDOWN" indeed.

tone down the rhetoric 29.May.2004 12:15

abc

A woman who faced down US-backed Indonesian death squads is actually working for the CIA?! You don't say!

Really, you'd do yourself and your favored theories more credit by toning down the rhetoric. When people start becoming this emotionally attached to their favored worldviews, they can really get ugly when confronting people who don't agree with them.

Edmonds = official version of events? 29.May.2004 12:17

Purple Punk

Give me a break! Sibel Edmonds (not Edwards as in Scott's letter) called the 9/11 commission a cover-up!! IS that really the official version of things? She may paint some of the problems with the FBI as incompetence, but she also says that it can't all be explained away by incompetence. How about the reason that Goodman was nicey-nicey with her is because Goodman knows she'd have gotten her ass kicked if she'd gotten nasty with Edmonds. Edmonds has the government scared and that's why she's under a gag order. If you're going to make a case that Goodman = CIA operative, at least be logical about it. Edmonds, and Clarke for that matter, don't spout the official version of events.  http://baltimorechronicle.com/050704SibelEdmonds.shtml

? 29.May.2004 12:30

who are you?

acts of bravery become suspicious when followed by acts of cowardice.

Are you surprised? 29.May.2004 12:50

TM

No one should be surprised regarding DN's stance on the 911 conspiracy. If Amy were to take any other position besides the official government cover up, she would be lucky to find herself with an audio stream on some obscure web site. Although the CIA operative makes for a good novel, I hardly think it's the case. Let's not throw the Amy out with the bath water...

I would however like to see her take on Alex Jones on this subject. He'd have her for lunch.

tm

if amy were fired... 29.May.2004 13:09

exactly!

are we cowards? i don't trust cowards, tellit like it is, if she were fired it would totally defend her argument! she stood up to death squads huh? really? then why is she sooo scared now?

I don't think that anyone claims that Goodman is a "CIA agent" 29.May.2004 13:40

GRINGO STARS

...although that makes a lovely straw man argument for apologists of the official conspiracy theory to easily shoot down.

The fact is that Ford, Rockefeller, Carnegie, Soros, etc all help to fund those "leftist" organizations which effectively cripple the left. By supporting organizations which consciously exclude systematic analyses of problems (instead of personality electoral polics) or media groups who impotently plea to corporations to be fair, or groups with an ostensibly "left" agenda but ignore or paint over Israel, 911, etc, in a favorable light (such as DN), the CIA-funded foundations can meet the aims of the CIA without ever using a single agent. The CIA, and these foundations which they fund, are all to be NON-socialist, NON-anarchist, NON-revolutionary and NON-violent. That is how the authorities want the left to be; defanged, impotent. Most non-profit organzations are grateful for any money and don't scrutinize where it comes from. They must first exhibit a will towards non-critical journalism, though.

Amy Goodman:
 http://www.pressaction.com/news/weblog/full_article/oxman04162004/

Lakers vs. Wolves 29.May.2004 13:52

fierydrunk

Who do you think will win this series? It should be well-known that the NBA and Hollywood have masterminded a joint conspiracy to return the Lakers to the Finals and eventually "the throne" for primo ratings during Sweeps.

Liberal facists have ruined The Game!
HAVE A WONDERFUL WEEKEND!

left (no I'm the left) eats (no I'm the) left! 29.May.2004 14:12

tasty treats

Maybe if folks had more energy for organizing and less for infighting we'd be accomplishing something.

I'd estimate 30% of the comments on pdx.indymedia site are back-and-forth the same debates over and over and over again. It's pathetic - if any party in these arguements (the "crazy anarchists" vs. "sell-out liberals") we're truly doing something truly and clearly effective it would have way more effect in influencing people of the validity of their arguments than this lamo back and forth.

Even what I'm saying right now has been said a bizzilion times before. Oh well. It's great to be an armchair revolutionary critic when oppression and government/corporate murder is happening constantly. How many of you reading this spend time every single day looking to debunk what others are saying on indymedia? How many hours a week, a month, a year? Can you tell me about some of the concrete positive, world changing effects of this?

Mostly likely responses to this comment:
Argument #1 / Semantics: "I take issue with being called the left, the left an obsolete-blah-blah-blah"
Argument #2 / Missing the point: "I don't like labels and I'm not an anarchist or a liberal"
Argument #3 / Hyberbole-absurdity-revolutionary-minority-of-one-and-proud: "It's not infighting b/c we're not on the same side"
Argument #4 / Millenarianism: "If we could only decide on our unified strategy (i.e., ditching the radicals or the liberals) then we'd be truly effective"
Argument #5 / Paranoid-schizo: "that comment was obviously cointelpro"
Argument #6 / Self righteous indignation/intellectual snobbery: "It's my responsibility & personal-activist-calling to speak truth to power (by bashing liberals / radicals)"
Argument #7 / Kinda accurate: "your just doing the same thing!"

Yeah, but at least I'm actually doing shit 90% of the time....anyhow, venting done.....

yes, but WHAT "shit" are you "doing"? 29.May.2004 14:32

GRINGO STARS

Are you running on a treadmill (getting nowhere)? Are you playing the game proscribed to you? Are you believing lies?

Activity is all well and good, but without meaningful reflection it is mere buglike zombiewalking, possibly even hurting your own cause. THINK - *THEN* ACT. Most people hate thinking but it's a requirement for EFFECTIVE action.

re:gringo stars 29.May.2004 14:51

wow!

wow, hard to believe it, but I NEVER EVER even thought of thinking before doing something until you suggested it Gringo, thanks for this BRILLIANT and insightful tip! I'll pass it on.

"Are you running on a treadmill (getting nowhere)?"
uh-huh, I think I'm gonna break a sweat!

"Are you playing the game proscribed [sic] to you?"
oh yes! BASEBALL!

"Are you believing lies?"
woah- your like, blowing my mind, dude.

What a load of patronizing crap.

Forgot to mention:

Argument #8 / infantile-praxis-fixation-analysis-paraylsis: "No one is thinking before their acting, everyone is running around like a chicken with head cut off (so that's why I'm here - a talking-chicken-head! - to spout these fountains of tasty-wisdom-tidbits and aid in the collective intellgence)"

What <<ExAcTlY>> are you doing?

I heard that DN 29.May.2004 15:42

m

And the conspiracy dude sounded like a total jackass. really did a disservice to that perspective. Now I think Cynthia McKinney is totally awesome, but i'm not going to spend a whole lot of time on 9-11 conspiracy because i think it's beside the point. we live in a system so evil it must be destroyed regardless of who did what on 9-11.

btw: it's a shame people are using such ablist language throughout this thread. as a poster called speedy J pointed out on infoshop awhile ago, if you wouldn't describe something stupid as "gay" then why will you call it "lame" (or "crippling")? For good info on the disability rights mvmnt, see www.ragged-edge-mag.com/ and  http://www.h-net.org/~disabil/

I like Amy 29.May.2004 16:05

Sheepdog

She DID face down live fire from the Death squads, in size formation, at the Santa Cruz Event. Allen Narn(?) got his dead fractured trying to cover Amy as they used rifle butts on them. The citizens of E. Timore got hard ammo.
They also DID bring out the glaring tumor of 9-11 government conspiracy theory at least into the 'main stream' as a particular safety valve indeed. This would have been unheard of, say at the JFK hit. The cracks are showing and it's time to push now with mutual support now more then ever. These bastards are frightened of unforeseen consequences. They have never had to deal with the info war before. We are the many only when we decide to pull together on this leash and take it away. Getting on Amy's case is not productive or unifying. We saw the curtain come down even with the monkey like chitterings of 'Chip' as an idiot echo of Griffin who did well for himself. His message was clear and sensitive points came out. Hey, I like her.

local corruption 29.May.2004 16:26

nobody wants to see

As pointed out Craig Rosebraugh and Ward Churchill have the same problem in their post-9-11 writings which is quite suspicious. Check out their books. These two talk about the attacks of 9-11 as a blow to empire and fail to point out the Bush administration may have known and let 9-11 happen to bolster public support to invade Afghanistan and Iraq. And if you take a better look at Craig and the fact that the feds were all over him when he was ELF spokesperson...now he is talking about political violence as "actions causing harm to humans" for political ends...terrorism,assasination (and the govenment is leaving him alone?). Tell me do you buy or sell drugs with someone who just got busted? The feds have Craig by the throat...but don't say that too loud your friends might think that you're not cool. They may call you a "f*cking liberal" or turn in on you by calling you a fed. And if you try and publish a story on this indy will censor it as they may with this one.

Hello? 29.May.2004 17:05

I'm the Easter Bunny

"Democracy Now! strongly resembles a CIA propaganda campaign"

Yeah, I'm sure that's why Amy Goodman almost got herself killed to bring attention to the Genocide going on in East Timor when no one else would report about it. I'm also sure the CIA appreciated her being the only reporter with the guts to dig up the truth concerning the U.S. role in the coup in Haiti, that would've otherwise gone unreported. Tell me, how exactly does bringing attention to U.S.-funded atrocities and covert actions worldwide help the CIA? How is doing whatever one can to stop genocide and the overthrow of socially conscious democratic leaders by U.S.-backed military dictatorships "working for the clampdown"?

Tell me, what are you doing with your life that you feel you are in such a rightious position to bash someone like Amy Goodman? If you are so brave and perfectly uncompromising, then please get a radio show and do a better job. See how long it takes before someone bashes you online because the guests on your show didn't say exactly what they wanted them to say; or you didn't telepathically predict who they would criticize in order to have that person as a guest to defend themself.

From your complaints it seems you should be critiquing the guest's statements, rather than Amy Goodman for being one of the only national reporters willing to touch the issue at all. Is she supposed to have complete control over what comes out of her guests' mouths or something? If she were a ventriloquist, maybe your criticisms would be valid.

"We are appalled by Democracy Now's guest Berlet demanding that Griffin defend the scientific work of researchers who have never been invited to appear on your program.

Fourth, Berlet specifically (and very crudely) dismissed the crucial research of "Holmgren" (i.e., Gerard Holmgren). If Democracy Now! does not invite Holmgren on to defend his highly significant work then it is working on behalf of no democracy that has ever existed.

Fifth, during Griffin's ordeal he made many important points concerning specific anomalies with 911 (e.g., the Pentagon, WTC 7, etc.) that were ignored by Berlet. When will these be addressed on your program?

Until Democracy Now reexamines what happened on 9/11/01 with some intellectual integrity we will regard you and your program to be speaking on behalf of the CIA. To quote the Clash, you are solidly "Working for the Clampdown."


Ironically, she would have been spared your criticism as well as the criticism of many right-wingers as well, had she never had the guts to touch the 9-11 issue at all...just like every other American journalist who escapes your scathing keyboard. Apparently complacency is a monkeywrench, and asking critical unanswered questions is the role of the CIA.

Gringo, are you a fed? 29.May.2004 17:15

Or are you just backwards?

Gringo, do you understand what the counter intelligence programs (COINTELPRO) were aimed at? Do you understand what a provocateur is?

Agent Provocateur: one who associates with persons of a group in order to incite them to acts which will make them or their group liable to penalty.

Maybe provocateurs are provoking people into non-violence. Is this how it works? I don't think so.

Provocateurs are probably supposed to incite people to violence.

Tell me who benifited most from the actions of 9-11? Was it Iraq? Was it Afghanistan? Was it the people who lost their civil liberties? Or was it the ruling establishment that benifited most? You tell me who benifited from the act of political violence carried out on 9-11?

Are you suggesting that more violence is needed to stop the violence that is plauging the world?

Hmmmmmm...more violence that would be effective. You sound like a provocateur. You sound like a fed.

Amy is the best progressive journalist today! 29.May.2004 17:22

wes brain

Democracy Now! and the brave journalism Amy Goodman are the best! Is she perfect? Hell No. Are you?

Consider that probably less than 10% of our voting electorate could even engage in this discussion <they don't even know who the hell she is>, and consider the majority of the other 90% are tricked...let us delcare that MORE VOICES like Amy/DN! are the path for democracy. No shit! More voices, more points of view, more information, more democracy. now!

No Different that many 29.May.2004 17:41

UabUab

How much would it cost me to put on my own radio show now?
I have a internet connection a computer, and recording equipment. So the only thing it would take is time. Now imagine if I knew 10 other people that wanted to make a radio show as well. Wow, it doesn't seem like it would be that hard. Now I do admit a satelite to air the program would be costly, but in the end for me to complete a 3 hour long radio show and put it out over the internet is essentially free. Post a link on indymedia and if its a good show who knows how many people i could get to listen to it. I wonder how many people would be able to say the same thing I just said. I bet alot. Then why do we think that someone who feels they need hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars to tell you what to think does not have a vested interest in the reaction of not only the listeners of the radio show as well as the interest of the underwriters of the radio show. I've worked at a community television station and to say that they didn't change the station to meet the needs of the financiers would be a lie, and this was cable access tv the bottom rung of television. The well-funded liberal media is no different than the much more well-funded conservative media like fox and msnbc. You have "personalities" in the form of journalists who are very marginalized in the way they think and in what they cover and they get paid to do what they do. If your job is to sell news to a particular type of individual or culture and you aren't doing it well you'll be replaced. Everyone knows this, it's capatilsm. They think what there doing is great and they want to keep doing it. What a novel concept.

An interesting note in all of this is that if major corporate public opinion polls show the percentage of americans that feel the u.s. government had some role in 9/11 attacks to be well above 30 percent, why has no major news outlet cashed in on the seemingly large audience of the topic. I guess we'll have to wonder why instead of sitting back and watch the system eat itslef.

No more jabberjaw! Time for action indeed! 29.May.2004 18:09

GRINGO STARS

<<Argument #8 / infantile-praxis-fixation-analysis-paraylsis: "No one is thinking before their acting, everyone is running around like a chicken with head cut off (so that's why I'm here - a talking-chicken-head! - to spout these fountains of tasty-wisdom-tidbits and aid in the collective intellgence)" >>

You are SO right. We should quit discussing ANYTHING! ACTION, NOT WORDS! Let's run around like brainless bugs/chickens and just DO things, damn the consequences! (sorry if I said anything specieist)

Let's nevermind the fact that Goodman is relegating the role of 911 information to "conspiracy nut" land. That doesn't matter! Hell, 911 doesn't matter! 911 has NOTHING to do with anything, and neither does Goodman. All yew ayg-heads jabberjawing about high-faluting nonsense! Let's be unanimous in our tepid condemnations of republicans, OK? NO MORE DISCUSSION! DISCUSSIONS ARE NOT HELPFUL! ID YOU DISCUSS THINGS, YOU ARE THE ENEMY! After all, more than a decade ago, Goodman did a good report, so no need to criticize her NOW. The statute of limitations for respecting someone for their earlier work is like, 30 years right?

<sarcasm off>
UabUab is right. Most all of the foundation-funded left is nothing less than capitalist. As capitalists, their critique of current policies will be tepid points of policy rather than any kind of systemic criticisms.

Capitalism Uber Alles! All hail Goodman for upholding Bush's 911 conspiracy theory! Bush couldn't keep the left in line without you!

typical gringo 29.May.2004 18:59

no need to say more

gringo, you illustrate my points exactly. Hyperbole, straw man, and just plain bad listening skills all in one....and you are SO convincing when you talk all angry/sarcastic and use ALL CAPS like that. Regardless of the (in)validity of your believes, there is no reasoned arguement with unreasonable people....I'm done with this conversation, feel free to have the last word....

Amy Goodman: electoral fetishist; Palestine & 911 official mouthpiece 29.May.2004 19:56

GRINGO STARS

1. Her "advocacy journalism" is too wedded to the most conservative elements of The Nation magazine. She serves as a spokesperson for ABBers. When all is said and done, repeated footage of people like Kerry, Edwards and Clarke on the campaign trail — often without negative commentary — simply reinforces the notion that the starting point for activism should be the electoral process practiced in traditional fashion. Clips of Bush and his coterie are often as hard to explain as they are to digest.

2. Her "radical" steps lead her audience to nothing further than a UFP&J march; you'll be hard put to find the influence of the Zionist lobby — one of the most monumental driving forces in our foreign policy today — in Democracy Now!'s archives. Reverend Jesse Jackson's missions designed to appease Zionists who control the American media and to serve the imperialistic interests of the U.S. government are given a free ride. Violence in Seattle, say, was treated in terms of police brutality. Activist violence is played down as unrepresentative, unnecessary and/or unapproved of by the vast majority on the Left.

3. Her guests are much more likely to include the voices of the most palatable personalities on the Left such as Michael Parenti and Noam Chomsky than the likes of, say, Ward Churchill or Winona LaDuke. The last time she had WC on was October 14, 2002, and when she has had people like him on it's usually for token appearances in the name of such events as Columbus Day or "a revival of Cointelpro" by the Bush administration. As Winona LaDuke told her on one segment, "we don't need a Native American Week" or a day set aside in October for recognition. Just so.

4. She's a bit of a starstruck, celebrity groupie at times. To permit Tim Robbins to pontificate about his righteousness regarding Iraq, but not call him on the statement that he was "all for the invasion of Afghanistan" is tantamount to allowing the mounting of the next U.S. invasion to take place with one's blessings.

5. There's much talk of her betraying many in The Movement such as former colleagues at Pacifica, and she's failed to honor a number of commitments to others on The Left. February 15, 2003 she enlisted many community activists for advance work respecting the NYC peace demonstration, promising full credit and broadcast opportunities which never materialized, to say the very least. Since first being informed that she has a running reputation for stealing others' scoops, my investigation has revealed her, by some, to be career-driven, power hungry and a somewhat of a control freak. Witness the lack of spotlight provided for others, shared with others on DNow!. There's been one for Juan, of course, but that can be looked at as quite obligatory at base. To quote one of the contacts I truly trust: Her "only evident abiding commitment is to self-promotion, and maybe a faction of the Democratic party, equally disastrous for journalism."

6. Her weakness on segments devoted to the plight of the Palestinians is a huge problem, the April 25 and November 25, 2003 segments notwithstanding. If one discounts the pluses related to the show's "headlines" this year, things are pretty pathetic as per Henry Norr's observations:

"If you were to count only the pieces that dealt with the situation on the ground in Palestine,...on that score I have to say the coverage has been pretty pathetic. One thing that particularly strikes me: it doesn't appear that she's ever had even one segment that goes into depth about what the apartheid wall is doing to the Palestinians, nor much about the growing grassroots resistance to it (not counting a couple of pieces about arrests, shootings, etc.) Another observation: aside from Edward Said and Mustafa Barghouti (twice in the 15 months), she's had only a few Palestinians speaking for themselves."

Aftim Saba wrote: "I listen to democracy now on a regular basis, and it has been clear that even NPR has more stories on Israel and Palestine than Democracy Now!. It appears that Amy Goodman studiously avoids discussing Israel, the occupation, the apartheid wall or even Israel's role in the mess we see the US is in the Middle East."

7. She's lost* Jeffrey Blankfort; check out the various points that JB touches upon below in a recent email to me.

Aside from the Palestinian issue, one of my criticisms of her is that since she has made DN a TV show, she has tended to have more mainstream known figures on the air than before and she seems to mention their names with a reverence I find disturbing. Also, she, like Chomsky, Bensky and others have been accused of being gatekeepers on the left when it comes to airing alternative narratives concerning 9-11. (I think I heard Bensky refer to the head of the 9-11 commission as "the honorable Thomas Kean."). Re the lobby issue ... I think this is one of the most underreported stories that goes along with the fact that most corporations don't pay any taxes. One would think that the takeover of the Democratic Party by the lobby might be something that people could get their balls in an uproar about, to use an expression from my childhood, as in "Don't get your balls....."

*Did she ever have him? JB, host of a radio program on KZYX and KPOO in Mendocino County, Northern California, notes: "I have given up waiting to hear the kind of reporting and analysis regarding Occupied Palestine on DN! that we hear regarding other struggles and issues, and this is due no doubt to the fact that, like other sectors of the US media of which DN! is a part, there is an effort not to offend those who pays the bill."

The enema that is this article did not come about as a function of a) envy, b) lack of appreciation of Amy's good points and/or c) lack of awareness of how difficult and complex her life/work are at this juncture. I am fully aware of the service she provides...and for whom.

 http://www.pressaction.com/news/weblog/full_article/oxman04162004/

Amy Goodman is the best there is 29.May.2004 21:15

coaster

She's got courage and tenacity, and she's out there working every day to make a difference. It is interesting about the Rockefeller Foundation funding Big Noise films like This is What Democracy Looks Like and The Fourth World War, but where the hell else are film makers and journalists who are not independently wealthy supposed to get money? And it probably does help them set the boundaries of the debate, and what are WE going to do about it? We're sure not sending them much(antiwar.com finally made $50,000 in their fund-drive, and that's with hundreds of thousands of hits a week). It's tough living in a capitalist oligarchy, and I'm glad Amy's keeping on, even if she might sound somewhat compromised at times. At least she's talking, and as someone pointed out, most people don't even know and/or care who she is--they're sights are fixed on MSNBC(if they're "liberal").

Why not send Pacifica some money so she won"t have to lean on the likes of Ford and Rockefeller?

Are You A Dork? 29.May.2004 21:35

Ted

Some people reading this comment are dorks. Some are not. Those that are dorks are the ones who waste everybody's time by posting comments that don't debate any premises of a published article, just transcribe a lot of insults and vulgar language against those who's position they don't agree with. How constructive is that? Paid propagandists who seek to keep people confused and from forming groups large enough to exercise any real political power are the only ones who really value your diatribes.

Without taking sides, Amy Goodman has had guests on Democracy Now! who have directly attacked the official story behind 9-11. Gore Vidal was interviewed last week and did exactly that during much of his air time.

Amy Goodman, Left Gatekeeper 29.May.2004 22:10

Scott Loughrey

The 911 Truth Movement is battling the Bush regime where it is most vulnerable. Instead of merely reporting on the growing infrastructure of the Bush regime's planned police state, the activists investigating 9-11 are attempting to remove the justification for each piece of it. They are attempting to isolate some basic ideas that can be delivered to large masses of people. Unfortunately, misguided Left Gatekeepers like Amy Goodman continue to block their efforts at pursuing the path that has the greatest chance of success.

Democracy Now!'s contribution to the global struggle to remove the neoconservatives from power in the US is undermined each day that passes that Amy Goodman fails to invite on her show an articulate critic of the official story of 9/11/01. In addition, what little that has been said on DN! about 9-11 should be regarded as disinformation which is completely at the service of the Bush regime.

What many of her critics want from Amy Goodman is for DN! to speak truth to power on the most important issue of our time. We all know from her past that when she speaks truth to power she can move mountains. Many of us also believe that we're running out of time waiting for her to get moving.

September 11th isn't an issue like any other. It is the catalyst for the Bush regime's dramatic expansion of US imperialism and very open foundations for a police state. Activists who are interested in removing the harm done by the Bush regime since 9/11/01 should focus on conveying the scientific anomalies with the official story of that day. To do otherwise is to fight a losing battle.

 http://www.media-criticism.com/Amy_Goodman_03_2004.html

Fuck 'em all 29.May.2004 22:20

itswoot

Lets secede and abandon this ship of fools!

CIA money funds the left gatekeepers 29.May.2004 22:23

GRINGO STARS


I concur with consternation on why DN has avoided the issues of 9/11 30.May.2004 06:07

Stan Moore stangabboon@prodigy.net

I agree that Democracy Now and Amy Goodman have not only avoided focus on the many issues regarding the events of 9/11/2001, but Amy Goodman's line of questioning seemed very strange when interviewing Griffin.

For instance, while Griffin continually asserted that his book asks a number of questions without making specific charges, Goodman continually questioned the "accusations" or "charges; thus missing the point that there are many unanswered anomalies. Goodman seemed to question the sensibility of the questions themselves rather than face the anomalies themselves that deserve scrutiny.

Significant questions were not discussed at all in the interview, such as published photographs that seem to indicate patterned explosions within the World Trade Center long after the planes crashed into the buildings, which suggested some sort of controlled demolition.

Goodman has failed to take serious note of published writings by the Project for a New American Century which specifically called for a "Pearl Harbor sort of event" in order to facilitate the actions desired by the neo-conservatives. A good connection would have been to interview recent sources who have demonstrated unequivocally that Franklin Roosevelt had access to the top secret Japanese communications that indicated in real time the planning and operational actions involved in the Japanese Pearl Harbor -- which prove that Roosevelt deliberately allowed that attack to occur when it could have been forestalled -- in order to motivate the American public to enter WWII.

Interestingly, Goodman and Democracy Now have never hestitated to criticize the Bush Administration's Environmental Protection Agency response to the WTC destruction, and the exposure of rescue personnel to high levels of contaminants. But the actual role of the Bush administration in the attacks themselves both before and during the events continue to be ignored by Democracy Now, including the apparent high level overrides of State Department border controllers which repeatedly allowed the terrorists to enter the United States from various countries around the world despite anomalies with their visas, passports, being caught on watch lists as they attempted to cross borders, etc.

Something is very fishy with the way Dmocracy Now and Amy Goodman continue to avoid these well-publicized issues.


Stan Moore San Geronimo, CA  hawkman11@hotmail.com

BRING ON ALEX JONES 30.May.2004 06:26

The Walrus

In my opinion Democracy Now is manipulated by our government and big business, Amy Goodman is just another tool (if she knows it or not we should care less, the show is worthless brainwash). If you people want a real voice that adresses real issues with passion then tune into Alex Jones at www.infowars.com

Goodman was professional 30.May.2004 06:40

panther

I heard the DN program with Griffin et al. Ms. Goodman noted at the top that Griffin and Berlet had a "cordial" ongoing dispute based on Berlet's published review, which included Griffin's response to published side-by-side. Both Berlet and Griffin referred to this. The URL was given so people could read them. Ms. Goodman didn't take sides, as I heard it. Griffin came across as a serious scholar and Berlet as a poor journalist.

Comments from the Author 30.May.2004 07:04

scottl44

Hey all, thanks for having strong interest in this discussion. I'd like to thank Gringo Stars for outstanding dialogue. Gringo's comments are well worth heeding, imo.

A few points about Amy Goodman. If I write that her show "resembles a CIA propaganda campaign" that doesn't say that she's necessarily a CIA agent. Amy is positioning herself as a CIA asset, which is a different thing altogether. The CIA asset, for whatever reason, manages to do things that always benefit the CIA. For example, Osama bin Laden, for example, may really despise the West. However, every Jihad he announces benefits the CIA.

So, Amy could be trying to court favor with the Agency in order to survive the tough times coming. That's why she has been engaging in a multi-year propaganda campaign on behalf of the Bush Regime's ludicrous official story of 911.

So the complaint to Amy is stop being a CIA asset.

Moving to East Timor, I was particularly struck by her courage there:
 http://www.baltimorechronicle.com/media_jun02.html

In the 1990s I greatly admired Goodman.

Regarding Sibel Edwards, she may be stating that the 911 Commission is a "coverup". However, unless she states why this is so she is hardly being an opposition figure to it. Also, her claim to have translated documents discussing planes flying into the WTC coincides with the Bush Regime's propaganda that they were merely negligent.

peace,
Scott

BERLET IS A FASCIST!!!! 30.May.2004 07:22

Ernest Cann ernwaeo@aol.com

Chip Berlet is a fascist feces eating bacterial orgasm that doesn't deserve to be mentioned!!! After reading his dribble against Lyndon Larouche how can anyone think that this fool has any credibility?!!!!!!

They blacked out Larouche, now we should black out these drips!


Bacterial "Orgasm"? 30.May.2004 07:45

Spastica Rex

Should this be "organism"?

Super-super Bowl 30.May.2004 07:58

Zorro

Choose your team for the November Super-super bowl: The zinging Zionists, coached by George Bush, or the gassing Globalists, coached by John Kerry.

Give Up Or Die 30.May.2004 08:18

The Realist

I have bad news for all you internet debating society folks.

It's hopeless, totally hopeless. If a big "incident' like the Kennedy assassination or 911 isn't solved in a few weeks, then it will never be solved. The simple fact, that took me a long time to understand, is that 99% of the American people will never believe in great "conspiracies". They really think we are the bastions of freedom and democracy around the world, and that we live in a free enterprise system. If I mention anything to my friends even slightly outside of their televised reality, I am looked at as if I just landed from Mars. I no longer waste my time.

Humans are genetically locked into an us vs. them modality, sometimes with a religious overtone. The ruling bloodlines who use secret societies to achieve their goals have long known how to play the peons. And "Amurricans" are the dumbest sonsabitches who ever inhabited planet earth - and that takes in a lot of territory. There will be no revelation about 911, even if someone comes up with a video of agents planting charges, it will simply be explained away. This endless "Detective Columbo" back and forth on the internet is a useless waste of time, done by Don Quixote's flailing at windmills. It's been almost 41 years since Kennedy's brains were splattered over the trunk of his limo, and people are still arguing over who the three shooters and three rifle carriers were. Nobody cares except the lunatic fringe, right? Why waste time trying to enlighten people who don't want to be enlightened, and who will want to fight with you if you do break through their Alice-In-Wonderland. (Like that Neanderthal who punched the S.F. female art dealer in the eye). You see, if there were conspiracies associated with JFK MLK RFK Wallace Lennon Oklahoma Waco 911 etc., then everything you believe in is false, and you have no control of your destiny, and voting is meaningless. This is too painful to confront, painful thoughts must be avoided.

However, be advised, you WILL live in a Mexican country currently known as the "United States", the birthrates are immutable, and you will go through a total economic collapse and the ensuing martial law - the financial numbers foretell that with absolute certainty. The only question is precisely when. And you will richly deserve the freight train that is about to run you over. The average person IS a fool, even if they have three doctoral degrees, so I guess they do need to be led around like dogs on a leash. All hail to the ruling bloodlines!

just a dope from jersey 30.May.2004 08:28

jersey dope

boy i tell ya...
anyone who thinks amy goodman is in bed with the cia didnt see her verbally joust with dennis miller a few weeks ago.
i happened to tune past his train wreck of a messnbcnbcnn show and saw amy goodman and almost spilled hot coffee all over myself.
dennis miller has become a hardcore shill for the right and the worst kind of apologist for the republicans ive ever seen. she made some very bold comments about the reporting of the war and the perspectives that aren't reported... and miller tried to wave a flag until commercials... it was beautiful. At one point, if my memory serves me... she made a brilliant point about the war and all miller could muster was "well im just concerned about the sons and daughters in harms way...maybe a little black ops is ok" line of deadly bullshit.
you could tell that he was just dying to go to break and bring out the dancing hippo or the country star or the gymnast....

so amy goodman has got a big brass pair that clang loud in the face of tyranny!

alex jones 30.May.2004 08:29

cliff cepjr_61@hotmail.com

Amen to alex jones! I listen to him every day, and he never delves into conspiracy theory, for he only shows the facts to the actual conspiracies that the NWO are now installing. Call in to his show, it's free:1-800-259-9231. Monday thru friday from 11 am to 2 pm central time, and 12 noon to 3 pm est. If any of ya'll want the facts, then talk or listen to alex! I've been listening to alex now for about 5 years and he's always been on the money!

Alex Jones Does Rule 30.May.2004 08:39

Scooby

Seriously. Check him out do a google on him. infowars,propagandamatrix

Finally someone recognizes that Amy Goodman is CIA 30.May.2004 09:32

Spartacus101

Amy Goodman was Alan Narin's partner in reporting on the Indonesian occupation of East Timor.About four years ago I attended a talk given by Alan Narin sponsored by the Orange County Peace coalition. Narin said that when he was arrested by the Indonesian Army that he saved his life by telling the Indonesians that he was CIA agent or U.S. intelligence officer If Alan Narin was CIA and was Amy Goodman's partner she must be CIA as well. Goodman is really an apologist for the American police state.

The Realist and I are in agreement 30.May.2004 09:33

Naturalized Sheeple

I have very little to add to The Realist's frank (if disheartening) comments, with the exception of the following 2 observations.

To cast light on that which informs my views, let me say that as a naturalized US citizen who arrived here in my early teens, I missed out on the nationalist conditioning that occurs in the schools (of every nation). (I grew up in Iran, and thus, missed out on the 'America, the God's Gift to Mankind' program.)

My understanding regarding the baffling resistance of otherwise highly critical and highly intelligent Americans to equally critical and equally intelligent dissection of the "official" 9/11 "story" comes down to

1) Bounded Self Image

Have Americans, for example, ever carefully considered the US National anthem? "_Conquer_ we must for our cause is just"? I must admit that I just recently got to read the full text including that jaw dropping line.

Wow!

It takes a very potent dose of self-righteous backpatting to line up in rows and sing that line with your hand on your heart! (Think!)

(Please note, the word isn't "defend", or "stand up", or any other potentially righteous action. The word is "conquer". (As a contrast, let me inform you that the corresponding line in Iran's "Imperial" anthem was "my life is in sacrifice for the pure ground of my homeland" -- defensive. Get it?)

That said, the first problem here is that a true confrontation of facts regarding 9/11, the invasion of Sovreign Afghanistan, the Rape of Iraq, and the continued slow-mo genocide against Palestinians, etc., by thinking, critical sheeples is the required confrontation with an effectively transrational, and deeply emotional, associations in the self image of nearly every single 'Born in the USA American' between 'The Just Conquering USA' and the Sheeple's self image.

And that image is one of Moral Superiority.

2) Having a Stake in the System

Contrary to most "leftist" intellectual's disdain for the thought processes of the "masses", the fact remains that the human is (at worst) a calculating and reasoning animal. Those who think their fellow Sheeple as being unthinking, "rabid", etc. apparently have failed in their own quest for self knowledge.

Let me illusrate this point by a personal example:

I have a friend that, typically (for my friends), is intelligent, highly critical, and quite educated. This friend resides in NYC. This friend is an architect. This friend has a *huge* ego. This friend works for a 'star' architect. This friend has related his deep frustrations for having to be the point-man in the office for relating the glories of his employer regarding certain designs. The said designs being his, my friend's, designs.

This friend is complying with this assignment, even though for a variety of reasons (honesty, truth, ego ;) he would be expected to do otherwise!

Now, this same friend, has actually confronted me with the arguement of "why would a MIT professor lie about the analysis of the collapse of the two towers?"

Why indeed. Do you see, dear reader, that his failure to 'see' is an necessary psychological stance in his continued desire to see himself as a Good, Rational, and Truthful person?

Get it, my fellow sheeple?

*) conclusion:

The *only* hope for a recovery of this nation's Soul is, sadly, through the cathartic effects of a devestating defeat along the lines of that which forced Nazi Germany to confront the 'Prussian meme' that had infested nearly every single German during the rise of the Nazis.

There is no other solution, and certainly, reason and debate will fail to make an effective dent on the psychological (Self Image) and biological (Survival/Stake) armor of the members of this nation.

Salaam.


authore of this article working for CIA 30.May.2004 09:39

Ken Waltz kwaltz@mcn.org

IT is obvious that the morons who wrote this article are working for the CIA. Look at what they are attempting; 1. To discredit one of the most hard working advocates of freedom on this planet, 2. Attempting to make any conspiracy therorist regarding 911 look like a morons.

With the fallacies in their arguments regarding Amy being so obvious, how could anyone take anything they say, seriously. These are not credible researchers and don't have a clue about what they are saying.

This must be an attempt to discredit the left, along with anyone advocating a government involvement in 911. Obviously, not a very good agent at that. This pathetic attempt at reverse psychology is typical CIA.

she screwed-up 30.May.2004 10:55

c colemancraig ccolemancraig@cybermesa.com

I listen to Amy five days a week. The business i work for (a hemp clothing store - no pot related stuff) underwrites her show in New Mexico. I love the woman but she screwed up the 911 show. She was clearly hostile to Griffin and was openly encouraging to Berlet. The Palestinian stuff I didn't notice until reading it here but it is hard to notice what is not there. Like I said I love the woman and her work. She can't do everything, however, she doesn't need to screw-up the work of others. Star-struck, yeah, but aren't we all?

Alex Jones! 30.May.2004 11:29

Need Truth

If you want facts = Alex Jones. Need I say more?.....

wake up people! 30.May.2004 11:30

mg

does anyone remember the interview amy goodman did with bill clinton. that was awesome. amy goodman is a very talented, intelligent, and brave journalist. she may not be perfect, but her interviews are generally very well balanced, and she often has guests debating issues that they dont agree on. does she always ask the right questions all the time? no. but remember, its a live show. i love democracy now, and i think it really is an asset to the left. only a tiny fraction of the american people are exposed to the kind of information that DN presents. and most that are exposed only get to read shitty trotskyist rags and are turned off by the content of most leftist media. DN presents these issues in a way that seems journalistic and balanced. thats why it has the real potential, if it reached more people, to seriously change hearts and minds. those who spout BS about Amy Goodman being a CIA agent wont change any hearts and monds. they will just marginalize themselves from the rest of the nation.

and yes, i listened to the interview. it wasnt perfect. but why couldnt Griffin answer the simple question about his research? she asked him to name one researcher. he couldnt. maybe she should have asked better questions to berlet, but it was at the end of the show. griffin would have seemed a lot more credible if he had answered the question quickly, and then used the opportunity to point to holes in berlets 'research'. instead, he stumbled over his own words. is that Amy Goodmans fault? you think crossfire would have been easier on Griffin? they wouldnt even have let him on the show. have some perspective, pull your head out of your ass, and realize that this online community is really disconnected from the rest of the country. dont fight against a resource like DN, when its really one of our greatest assets.

Have you read the debate? 30.May.2004 11:41

Fred Wahlstrom fredwahl1@mac.com

After reading the comments here I wonder how many of you who posted have read the debate  http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/05/26/150221 It was a debate, Goodmans only moderating, her questions to Griffin were in regard to his claims, which in a public forum need to be backed up.

For questions as serious as this a full show would have been aproprate, it seems more for entertainment value than for serious questioning.

Wrong, "Realist" 30.May.2004 11:56

GRINGO STARS

Although I agree that things are particularly grim these days, your "99% don't care" is not borne out by polls. In most polls, it is 30% who do not believe the official conspiracy theory involving Osama with 911.

Furthermore, your biological determinism regarding people's "us vs. them" mentality is not borne out by anthropology, history, and simply observable facts. People are SOCIALLY hardwired to be competetive, but this cultural framework didn't exist before 8,000 years ago. before then, cooperation was the main mode. Study more and you'll see that what you are fed daily in the corporate media is designed to dishearten you.

Those who study the media have observed a particularly American trait: the sincere belief that "everyone is so duped except me" - this arrogance is within most every American, progressive left included, and can definitely be seen in your comment, "Realist." Why is it that Americans believe that the media affects everyone but themself?

I think there is a socially-propagated equation that realism equals negativity, but this isn't true either, since there are a myriad of REAL things which are in fact very positive.

As an aside, I'd like to thank the LaRouche supporter who called LaRouche's supposed enemy a "fascist." I guess two fascists can never peacefully co-exist. That was funny to imply that LaRouche is NOT a fascist. Good clean irony. That was a good one! The site with links to LaRouche and anti-chocie sites was a hoot too!

Let me reiterate to people who don't seem to be getting it: Amy Goodman is NOT a CIA operative, she is a mere CIA asset. Her Democracy NOW! is funded by the CIA through the ford, Rockefeller, Soros, etc foundations. She upholds a non-socialist, non-anarchist, non-violent, pro-capitalist "left" which is the "left" that the CIA has been hustling to establish as a parallel left for many decades. She is unwitting. Perhaps she has no idea of the long list of unwitting CIA assets which include Orwell and Borges and Bertrand Russell...

Check out this interesting book:
 http://www.monthlyreview.org/1199petr.htm

 http://www.melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2003/12/58832.php

 link to www.amazon.com

Alex Jones is a joke 30.May.2004 12:08

ha ha

What kind of retard microwaves and burns money and claims that it was secret RFID devices located in Jackson's eye? The moron could have cut a stack of paper to a similiar size of money, stuck it in the microwave and saw the exact same burn patterm. These RFID devices are so secret that nobody can find them or see them, only Alex jones and his microwave oven can detect them.

Alex Jones is for retards who'll believe anything they're told. You may as well read sci-fi comic books and take them as truth.

DN! is typical example of pacifist Left 30.May.2004 12:51

Comandante Gringo blackhouse@mil.gov

Some excellent commentary/analysis here on a sorely-needed critique of DN!
You've nailed it all right on the head: pacifist and liberal groups like Democracy Now! are the ruling class' "useful idiots", and the source of too much "Left"-originated disinformation these days.

Me? I'm still waiting on the "Communist Brodcasting System": i.e. CBS..!

The point is what she does NOW 30.May.2004 13:50

jack straw

The point is what Amy Goodman is doing NOW, not 10 years ago or 4 years ago. Over the last several weeks she's had an endless parade of guests such as Michael Moore and Craig Unger, who contend that Saudi Arabia is the real 9/11 culprit, ie not the US gov't. Unger even called Bush unfit to lead the war on "terrorism" (the phoney excuse for a US-initiated war for total global control) because he's unable to target what should be a prime target, Saudi Arabia, due to his close connections to the Saudi royal family. Moore has said the same. She's also had an endless parade of "former" CIA agents blaming 9/11 on Bush administration "negligence". She is part and parcel of spreading the notion that the "war on terrorism" is legitimate and worth fighting, even if the Iraq war isn't, and in fact is a distraction from the "necessary war". In that, she clearly acts as a CIA asset, and her defenders are not dealing with that. Upholding the official version of what happened *on* 9/11(the most idiotic conspiracy story of all, search for "Debunking Conspiracy Theory" by Gerard Holmgren) is participating in the biggest cover-up of history, on behalf of the empire, no two ways about it. Amy Goodman is a spokesperson for a faction of the ruling elite that wants to oust Bush in favor of a "kinder, gentler" New World Order.

We need UNITY! 30.May.2004 14:05

Dissident Outlaw Stargazr1228@aol.com

I will first readily admit that I have only recently emerged from the fog that most Americans still wander aimlessly through. I started watching Democracy Now! during the crisis in Haiti and haven't missed a show since. Those of you who remember, the networks provided non-stop Martha Stewart coverage and about two-minutes per hour about the events that were unfolding in Haiti. I admittedly still use mainstream news as a comparison to the coverage of DN! So I am still in the "honeymoon" phase. I thought Amy Goodman's book was excellent as well as the DVD "Media in a time of War."

I'm more than a little shocked by the castigation she is receiving. I just don't believe at this point it is at all justified. Does she go as far as Alex Jones (who I literally stumbled onto a few weeks ago)? Absolutely not! This doesn't mean we should declare her and DN! as the Ministry of Disinformation. I recently read Victor Thorn's "New World Order Exposed" and thought that if he toned down some of the strident rhetoric and just presented the facts he might reach a wider audience. We have to realize that most Americans have been "plugged in" to the machine too long. To go straight from network "news" to Alex Jones would create a systems overload for most people.

I too was curious about why there was even a need or desire to have an opposite view to Mr. Griffin's theory about 9/11. There is no shortage of sources disseminating the "official story." You can read that in any mainstream TV and print outlet. I think anyone who has taken the time to read the lack of evidence supporting the "official story" came away with the idea that Mr. Berlet's case was incredibly weak. We didn't need Amy to point that out for us. In fact, he went so far as to agree that more investigation is necessary and that Bush was impeding the process. This, I think, more than anything speaks volumes about the events surrounding 9/11. While I think Ms. Goodman's choice of questions could have been much better, it is important that she not be the antithetical equivalent of Bill O'Reilly. The ideal position should be moderator not mouthpiece. She also had the widow of a 9/11 victim, Ellen Mariani, and her lawyer on the show discussing the complicity of the President. Gore Vidal was also on the show raising questions. She may not be pursuing it with the same vigor as we would like, but Amy Goodman is not ignoring it!

I am now at a point (albeit very late!) where a massive and concerted effort must be directed at creating an official and credible investigation into 9/11. I think DN! Should have Mr. Holmgren on as a guest. There are quite a few people I would like to see exposed to a larger audience. There is retired US army Colonel Donn de Grand-Pre that wrote a book based on an independent inquiry of military and civilian pilots that he assembled after 9/11. I would like to see Clinton impeachment-lawyer David Shippers discussing his attempts to warn the Justice department. I wouldn't mind seeing Alex Jones on the program with some regularity discussing his theories and the facts that support it. Let people hear it and determine for themselves if it is valid. Are we assuming she is deliberately preventing these individuals from appearing on the show? I have not personally contacted the show via E-mail requesting a specific guest. Perhaps a flood of E-mails to the show would be a more constructive use of time than bickering. I am open to any and all suggestions.

I think the comparisons to NPR as far as coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict need to be qualified. NPR has a variety of different shows that broadcast all throughout the day. Democracy Now! Is on one-hour per-day. There is only so much you can cover thoroughly in an hour. Is that not the essence of how the corporate media operate? Give the people what they can understand in a five to ten-minute segment, but tell them nothing. Obviously a two-hour show would allow them the flexibility to cover some of the issues critics say aren't being covered or not covered enough. What is preventing them from expanding their time? I would assume money! I pay to have access to all of the content on Alex Jones' Prisonplanet.com. I would pay just to continue watching DN! and its current hour per-day format. I have no idea how much it costs to produce the show or how much it would cost to increase the time. I can't imagine Amy demands a lucrative salary to go along with her lavishly furnished private dressing room, which her contract stipulates must have room temperature Evian and a bowl of tropical fruit awaiting her arrival every morning. I was under the impression that mundane gossip was the sole province of the "mainstream" folk. Before we start casting aspersions on character and personality traits or flaws - because the two are entirely subjective - perhaps some introspection is needed. I can speak with authority on the subject of flaws because I possess so many. I think she is entitled to bask in her own self-importance from time to time. If she even does this at all. From what I have seen or read so far, it doesn't appear that she has compromised herself. I would imagine that only the wishy-washy, who have to be told what-to-buy and what-to-think, aren't controlling to a certain degree.

I am becoming more and more aware of how labels and special-interest groups are preventing the unity that is needed to right this faltering ship of American democracy. It is classic divide and conquer strategy. Just perusing these threads illustrates just how divided we are. Most of us have views that in the larger context are more similar than the views shared by those in power. Yet, I can't help but think if we were all in the same room a shouting match would ensue. I am not saying you shouldn't criticize Amy Goodman. I cringe every time I hear the phrase anti-American. I just haven't been provided with ample evidence that would substantiate lumping her together with the likes of tele-prompt readers Brokaw, Jennings and Rather. We need to stop defining just how left we need to be and start identifying common ground. Until then we are just chasing our tail.

Until someone can provide me with something else as substantial, I believe the events surrounding 9/11 are the most pivotal in the history of our country. This should be of the highest priority to anyone remotely interested in preserving what little Democracy we have left. I have signed my name to every petition concerning it. I have donated money. I have read as much as is available. I am prepared to do whatever is necessary (except any and all actions that could be construed as terrorism - for your eyes Mr. Ashcroft, in case you're eavesdropping) to expose the truth. We should inundate DN! On a daily basis with E-mails until they increase the coverage of 9/11. If they fail to respond, then it will serve as evidence of tacit complicity. I have sent the link to Alex Jones' "9/11 The Road to Tyranny" to everyone I know. Perhaps the popularity of Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 911" will lead to more coverage of Jones' movie. The Moores' and Goodmans' of the world are closer to mainstream than the Jones'.
We The People, need to push them into the mainstream with our support or expose them for what they are and send them back to the margins. We need to put on the back burner Nader, gay-marriage, the environment, health-care, and yes... EVEN THE WAR IN IRAQ!! The domino theory applies to 9/11. Once that is uncovered everything else will fall. We are getting too distracted. I am not ready to jump on the "Globalist" bandwagon just yet, but I have seen enough to realize that our government no longer represents us and there are powerful forces that see what little democracy that is left as an impediment to their goals. I just saw Ridge the other day explaining the elevated threat status. I have reached such a level of distrust when it comes to our government, when I hear him say potential targets like the Republican and Democratic conventions; I infer it as a threat. If you haven't noticed, this is a never-ending war. I think the powers-that-be need to shake up the people a little. We are clearly not all on the same page like we were after 9/11. It may be time to reinvigorate the people and get them back on sight in this "war on terror." You can't possibly have a "war on terror" without the terror.

One last thing; Does anyone else believe that if flight 93 had not taken off 40 minutes late and then shot-down (perhaps against orders) it would have targeted the Capitol Building, which they didn't evacuate until like 9:48 or something? It seemed like they were trying to give as much time as possible to complete the objective. I think I read that the building was full that day. A severe loss of Congressional members from death would seem like a plausible reason for Martial Law. I don't remember reading anyone hypothesizing this, but I have read so much about that day, I could be wrong.

No No Noo Solidarity 30.May.2004 14:14

Media critic

With so many important untold stories in the world right now it's very dissapointing to see Indymedia dedicate features to tearing down those who've devoted their lives to telling these stories. Amy Goodman has always been a strong advocate of Indymedia. She even worked with Indymedia on a recent film that did a great job of uncovering the government and corporate media's warmongering lies. No other journalist would dare promote Indymedia like she has. And this is the thanks she gets? It's one thing to critique her stories. Its another to promote obvious lies and personal attacks about her helping the CIA and working for the clampdown. Please! So much for solidarity.

Fascinating Debate about "Democracy NOW and Then" 30.May.2004 15:06

Jack Reed

This has been one of the best threads I've seem in months. Thanks to everyone (well, almost everyone) for contributing to this erudite, reasoned and useful discussion about the limitations of the Left media today.

Generally, I'm a huge fan of Amy Goodman and the Democracy NOW! team. I know of no other body of work to compare with what she has done from the perspective of a progressive/populist/human rights platform. I listen to the program almost daily and look forward to discovering what new part of our world Amy is exposing to the light of day, in ways that the corporate media simply hides away. C-SPAN and the BBC offer some excellent coverage to us in the U.S., but DN is clearly a superior source of information that matters to real people outside the Beltway. [Aside: In my humble opinion, one of the rare on-air journalists that I'd put in the same league with Amy is Thom Hartmann,  http://www.thomhartmann.com/show.shtml ]

Having sung Amy's praise, now I'd like to lower the boom. I do concur with those here who are concerned that Democracy NOW! is failing to take the concerns of the September Eleventh Family Steering Committee seriously enough. I've spent literally hundreds of hours researching, leading seminars, corresponding and sharing data on 9/11. The best thing that can be said about the interview/debate that Democracy NOW! had on 5/26 with Griffin and Berlet is that it did help to raise consciousness about Griffin's excellent book, "The New Pearl Harbor". I read it a week ago, and I regard it as one of the best distillations of the 9/11 research that I've seen to date. Sales of the book increased substantially in the aftermath of the interview, so we must be grateful about that. Reading the book really has reinforced my belief that the Kean Commission is a hopeless cover-up. It reinforced what Commissioner (and former Senator) Bob Kerrey said on The Daily Show with Jon Stewart a couple of weeks ago. Kerrey did not mince words. He said that the Kean "Commission is bull***t." And that is an exact quote.

Hopefully, Amy Goodman or her staff are reading this thread. I think they really ought to get Commissioner Bob Kerrey on Democracy NOW! and blow the covers off this silly cover-up. Griffin has a certain credibility because of his status as a Professor of Theology at Claremont College. Kerrey can only add to the credible argument that the American people are being sold a bill of goods by the Kean Commission. This is the weak link in the official story. This is where the whole thing breaks down. Who cares if Griffin can't quite come up with the name of an engineer who is willing to stake his reputation and career on dissenting from the official (and ridiculously incomplete) structural failure studies.

The place to attack the White House and the Kean Commission is on the egregious efforts made to suppress any, ANY, serious investigation into how 9/11 really happened. It is a scandal that the Kean Commission can have intelligent documents like Family Steering Committee's letter to the Commission dated Jan. 26, 2004
 http://www.911independentcommission.org/pdf/CarolAshley_1_26_04.pdf
and utterly disregard the concerns of the families of the victims. What the Kean Commission is doing is a travesty in a democracy. The world needs to know it. Amy Goodman can certainly help to get that word out to the world. We shouldn't castigate Democracy NOW! for what it has done so far, they should be praised for going much farther than any other well distributed media source in the country attempting to get the truth out. And then we should ask them to do more.

The Truth is Out There.....

Jack Reed

More 9/11 Discussions:  http://www.septembereleventh.org/forum/ubbthreads.php?Cat=

Contact Democracy NOW!:  http://www.democracynow.org/contactus.pl

so over the top 30.May.2004 15:44

x

this is so over the top.

So it was a debate format: hello! - as is CLEARLY demonstrated right here, whether 9/11 was an inside job or not IS A fricken debate amongst activists, radicals, progressives, leftists, and anarchists - why shouldn't it be a debate on DN! ?

So Amy showed her opinion a little?

In general when moderating a debate:
1) it extremely unlikely not have an opinion,
2) very difficult not to make opinion at least a little known when also trying to ask tough questions,
3) in many was BETTER to show your biases than to try to hide them.

I will grant that Amy could have been more candid with her bias, but it doesn't merit all this vitrol: she said like 1/100 as much as the 9/11 researcher, so to be SO up-in-arms about it is just plain childish.

People disagree, sometimes they use advantages in their situation to make others look dumb - most of the comments on this page partake in this type of behavior. Is it fucked up? yes. But do I know no one (and I know some nice folks) that has never done this? hands down no-way.

Yes Amy is in a (extremely marginal) power position as a fringe-lefty-journalist, but to say it's b/c of the CIA funding Ford funding her show is just plain silly.

Agree with her or disagree with her (from a right-wing or a farther-"left" perspective) she's done quality reporting, she's articulate, and she has a good radio voice - that is why she has funding.

Sorry gringo, just b/c some chart has an arrow pointing to it online I don't buy it. I want empirical (not 100 pieces of unrelated anecedotal evidence) that the CIA has a plan to create a "fake" left. So the CIA was involved with Ford in the past - So DN! (maybe, just maybe) has 50 cents of CIA funding.

Should this be noted? sure.
Does this mean DN! exists b/c or even slightly in part b/c of the CIA? no fucking way.

Although it's just plain fucked-up, patronizing, pointless, derogatory, self-defeating, and mean to use the term, I know lot of these "fake" lefties - I don't consider myself one of them, as an anarchist and a non-pacifist - but that doesn't me they're left-media brainwashed fools; they have (often well thought out) different opinions and they don't just do what Amy, or the Nation, or whoever tells them too. You can disagree with the many and varied aspects of non-anarchist left, but you can't just write them off them all off as a class (like a 1,000,000,000 people world wide?) as ignorant fools.

Yes the altmedia has an influence on people and yes powerful economic forces (foundations, etc.) influence EVERYTHING in the world. Does this make it a conspiracy? Does this mean that every with a shred of ties to anyone else is a (witting or unwitting ) operative? Give me a fuckin break.

Food Not Bombs (various chapters nationally) has gotten grants before? Is it a conspiracy by pro-population growth technocrats who want people to think there is enough excess stuff to go around for everyone so as to make people think that greater human population increase is ok?

You see, there is degrees of influence, degrees of conspiracy, and levels of evidence everywhere. 100 shreds of evidence and a flow chart, one (or even a dozen) people's personal anequedotes is not a proof, it's not a "smoking gun". This applies both to 9/11 and the "gatekeepers" theories.

I'm NOT saying I know definitively that either isn't true (it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to find out Bush planned the whole gig), or that either shouldn't be investigated. It's just that the degree to which most of the people posting here are clinging to these theories is cult-like, over-the-top, super dismissive of really legitimate criticism, unrecognizing of the holes in (or even diversity of) 9/11 theories, and especially extraordinarily over zealous to a point of caricature.

Saying DN! "censored" this guy b/c she asked him some hard questions (which, let's be honest folks, he completely bumbled) sounds a MUCH more like an effort to shutup Goodman than Goodman's effort to shut up the 9/11 guy.

(Neither of course amounts to "censorship"!)

Lastly Amy granted this guy a larger audience than probably any single media exposure event he will get and he agreed to it (probably solicited the interview himself). From an organizer's stand point, regardless of Amy's bias, this event did more to publize the cause than just about any 20 minutes of time you could spend.

Or wait, maybe she was just acting biased so that the censors wouldn't catch on?

Target the PR shill, not Amy 30.May.2004 15:46

webbcat

I am a long time watcher of Demoracy Now! and also I was a little disappointed with the debate. If somebody is to blame it's the PR shill and maybe also some more agressive debating style would also help the 911 skeptic case. Ask the shill to list the unexisting evidence that OBL's Al Qaeda solely plotted and carried out the attacks for example.

BUT I have to defend Amy Goodman, who I think does courages reporting on many different subjects that mainstream doesn't dare to touch. And she did let you on.

I've met a smart (former) constructional engineer who said that WTC 7 must have been brought down by simultaniously removing the load bearing members of the construction on at least the base of the building, but he didn't draw the bigger conclusion. State terrorism in your own country - by your own government - is just too big and scary to grasp for many people who have the strong believe their own government would never do such things.

I think the same holds for Amy Goodman it's not intentional but more like a forbidden thought that must be gotten rid off. Like people who were in accidents blocking all memories of it out. That's I believe why some people don't even want to look into the subject.

AMY GOODMAN AND THE CIA 30.May.2004 15:53

DEBORAH SIMON tAPIRLOVER@AOL.COM

well.put! i am sick and tired of the lies and cover-ups...i saw that interview/interrogation...what a shameful specticle...there are literally hundreds of thousands of us who know that 9/11 was an inside job...the media has failed us..the fourth estate is in tatters and we are clearly on the path of tyranny. to pretend it is not happening is to seal our doom!!! if yuou still have doubts go watch the missles strike the wtc at letsroll911.org..may god help us all

203-791-8220

the pro-capitalist, foundation-funded "left" is a CIA creation 30.May.2004 16:17

GRINGO STARS

Apparently I am a "fed" because I see pacifism as counterproductive. So be it. To "Or are you just backwards?": Yes, I am aware of COINTELPRO and the work of provocateurs in the 60s and 70s.

But are you aware of the Congress for Cultural Freedom?
 http://www.monthlyreview.org/1199petr.htm
 http://www.melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2003/12/58832.php

The CIA's cultural campaigns created the prototype for today's seemingly apolitical intellectuals, academics, and artists who are divorced from popular struggles and whose worth rises with their distance from the working classes and their proximity to prestigious foundations.

The CIA ran cultural congresses, mounted exhibits, and organized concerts. The CIA also published and translated well-known authors who toed the Washington line, sponsored abstract art to counteract art with any social content and, throughout the world, subsidized journals that criticized Marxism, communism, and revolutionary politics and apologized for, or ignored, violent and destructive imperialist U.S. policies. The CIA was able to harness some of the most vocal exponents of intellectual freedom in the West in service of these policies, to the extent that some intellectuals were directly on the CIA payroll. Many were knowingly involved with CIA "projects," and others drifted in and out of its orbit, claiming ignorance of the CIA connection after their CIA sponsors were publicly exposed during the late 1960s and the Vietnam war, after the turn of the political tide to the left.

U.S. and European anticommunist publications receiving direct or indirect funding included Partisan Review, Kenyon Review, New Leader, Encounter and many others. Among the intellectuals who were funded and promoted by the CIA were Irving Kristol, Melvin Lasky, Isaiah Berlin, Stephen Spender, Sidney Hook, Daniel Bell, Dwight MacDonald, Robert Lowell, Hannah Arendt, Mary McCarthy, and numerous others in the United States and Europe. In Europe, the CIA was particularly interested in and promoted the "Democratic Left" and ex-leftists, including Ignacio Silone, Stephen Spender, Arthur Koestler, Raymond Aron, Anthony Crosland, Michael Josselson, and George Orwell.

The CIA, under the prodding of Sidney Hook and Melvin Lasky, was instrumental in funding the Congress for Cultural Freedom, a kind of cultural NATO that grouped together all sorts of "anti-Stalinist" leftists and rightists. They were completely free to defend Western cultural and political values, attack "Stalinist totalitarianism" and to tiptoe gently around U.S. racism and imperialism. Occasionally, a piece marginally critical of U.S. mass society was printed in the CIA-subsidized journals.

What was particularly bizarre about this collection of CIA-funded intellectuals was not only their political partisanship, but their pretense that they were disinterested seekers of truth, iconoclastic humanists, freespirited intellectuals, or artists for art's sake, who counterposed themselves to the corrupted "committed" house "hacks" of the Stalinist apparatus.

Another cultural track on which the CIA operated was much more subtle. Here, it promoted symphonies, art exhibits, ballet, theater groups, and well-known jazz and opera performers with the explicit aim of neutralizing anti-imperialist sentiment in Europe and creating an appreciation of U.S. culture and government. The idea behind this policy was to showcase U.S. culture, in order to gain cultural hegemony to support its military-economic empire. The CIA was especially keen on sending black artists to Europe, particularly singers (like Marion Anderson), writers, and musicians (such as Louis Armstrong) to neutralize European hostility toward Washington's racist domestic policies. If black intellectuals didn't stick to the U.S. artistic script and wandered into explicit criticism, they were banished from the list, as was the case with writer Richard Wright.

One of the most important and fascinating facts is that CIA and its allies in the Museum of Modern Art (MOMA) poured vast sums of money into promoting Abstract Expressionist (AE) painting and painters as an antidote to art with a social content. In promoting AE, the CIA fought off the right-wing in Congress. What the CIA saw in AE was an "anti-Communist ideology, the ideology of freedom, of free enterprise. Non-figurative and politically silent it was the very antithesis of socialist realism". They viewed AE as the true expression of the national will. To bypass right-wing criticism, the CIA turned to the private sector (namely MOMA and its co-founder, Nelson Rockefeller, who referred to AE as "free enterprise painting.") Many directors at MOMA had longstanding links to the CIA and were more than willing to lend a hand in promoting AE as a weapon in the cultural Cold War. Heavily funded exhibits of AE were organized all over Europe; art critics were mobilized, and art magazines churned out articles full of lavish praise. The combined economic resources of MOMA and the CIA-run Fairfield Foundation ensured the collaboration of Europe's most prestigious galleries which, in turn, were able to influence aesthetics across Europe.

AE as "free art" ideology (George Kennan, 272) was used to attack politically committed artists in Europe. The Congress for Cultural Freedom (the CIA front) threw its weight behind abstract painting, over representational or realist aesthetics, in an explicit political act. Commenting on the political role of AE, Saunders points out: "One of the extraordinary features of the role that American painting played in the cultural Cold War is not the fact that it became part of the enterprise, but that a movement which so deliberately declared itself to be apolitical could become so intensely politicized" (275). The CIA associated apolitical artists and art with freedom. This was directed toward neutralizing the artists on the European left. The irony, of course, was that the apolitical posturing was only for left-wing consumption.

Nevertheless, the CIA and its cultural organizations were able to profoundly shape the postwar view of art. Many prestigious writers, poets, artists, and musicians proclaimed their independence from politics and declared their belief in art for art's sake. The dogma of the free artist or intellectual, as someone disconnected from political engagement, gained ascendancy and is pervasive to this day.

The CIA's involvement in the cultural life of the United States, Europe, and elsewhere had important long-term consequences. Many intellectuals were rewarded with prestige, public recognition, and research funds precisely for operating within the ideological blinders set by the Agency. Some of the biggest names in philosophy, political ethics, sociology, and art, who gained visibility from CIA-funded conferences and journals, went on to establish the norms and standards for promotion of the new generation, based on the political parameters established by the CIA. Not merit nor skill, but politics the Washington line defined "truth" and "excellence" and future chairs in prestigious academic settings, foundations, and museums.

The CIA's cultural campaigns created the prototype for today's seemingly apolitical intellectuals, academics, and artists who are divorced from popular struggles and whose worth rises with their distance from the working classes and their proximity to prestigious foundations. The CIA role model of the successful professional is the ideological gatekeeper, excluding critical intellectuals who write about class struggle, class exploitation and U.S. imperialism "ideological" not "objective" categories, or so they are told.

The singular lasting, damaging influence of the CIA's Congress of Cultural Freedom crowd was not their specific defenses of U.S. imperialist policies, but their success in imposing on subsequent generations of intellectuals the idea of excluding any sustained discussion of U.S. imperialism from the influential cultural and political media. The issue is not that today's intellectuals or artists may or may not take a progressive position on this or that issue. The problem is the pervasive belief among writers and artists that anti-imperialist social and political expressions should not appear in their music, paintings, and serious writing if they want their work to be considered of substantial artistic merit. The enduring political victory of the CIA was to convince intellectuals that serious and sustained political engagement on the left is incompatible with serious art and scholarship. Today at the opera, theater, and art galleries, as well as in the professional meetings of academics, the Cold War values of the CIA are visible and pervasive: who dares to undress the emperor?

Alex Jones is a joke 30.May.2004 16:25

Roxdog

"Alex Jones is a joke 30.May.2004 12:08
Alex Jones is for retards who'll believe anything they're told. You may as well read sci-fi comic books and take them as truth. "

Wow, you sure plugged that hole. Thanks for the reality grenade. Any more expert analysis.


Bob Kerrey Quote from Daily Show 30.May.2004 17:07

on Kean Commission

"Commissioner (and former Senator) Bob Kerrey said on The Daily Show with Jon Stewart a couple of weeks ago. Kerrey did not mince words. He said that the Kean "Commission is bull***t." And that is an exact quote."

--anybody please verify and reference URL link this quote?

Amy and her "Democracy Now" ' 9-11 Show' were disappointing. 30.May.2004 17:54

HN screenword@excite.com

Democracy Now is good stuff. Necessary listening. But, as with all media, it is up to the listener to pick out the truth and ultimately be responsible to his or her own sense of logic. Don't trust anything, first rule.

The Democracy Now '9-11 Show' this last week was unfortunately not good. But, hey, the alternate case was at least broached, but.... it the radio program was imbalanced in final evaluation.

Griffin had a lot of interesting stuff to say. Berlet's sole presence as a defense against the 9-11 "conspiracy" was an odd choice, as he was not convincing, and he just didn't bring a lot of clarity into the moment to moment discussion during the show.

The show ultimately damaged the true, overall investigation into the 9-11 mystery. One that the Senate and Congress won't look into.

More time and attention is needed to hear out details, perhaps in other shows. A panel presentation would be great.

This issue is worth looing into deeply. Democracy Now could do so much better, maybe next time around.

Also, to all who might possess it, let's get rid of that beneath-the-breath, subconscious 'sneer' of 'sooooo-o-o nutzy ain't they' that seems to accompany any mention of the 9-11 'alternate' (or, let's face it... real) story. Man, when you consider four big commercial planes, that are not tracked well enough, and not intercepted - after going AWOL for tens of minutes, up to 79 minuets? One plane converging on the Pentagon?

The whole 9-11 deal smells to high heaven. Where's the criminal investigation? Why aren't we hearing direct testimony from the Fire Deparment people who were on the scene? Under oath, of course. What about the radio transmissions received up to the first Tower building's collapse?

And you now it's weirder and deeper than you almost want to know, but you have to find out about it in order to cut out the cancer that let it happen in the first place.

Let's face it, if you want to get to the bottom of a real investigation, you have to take on the valuable work being done out there, work that took some people thouseands of hours to produce penetrating questions that are afterall, base on basic observation.

Berlet seemed to have a tone of opposition, but he is not the one for the case. Trust me on that.

There it time left, but the door is closing. Bring it all out into the open, since that is really the first goal.

Thank you.

On the other hand 30.May.2004 18:10

klaatu

On the other hand some of the 9-11 stuff is illogical, particularly the Pentagon missile thing. Starting with a basic, very basic question. Why would you NOT use a 757/767? They used them on the WTC no? Was that not a airline jet that crashed in Pennsylvania? And why would you put a missile on a flying bomb of fuel loaded jet? Wouldn't that be like duct taping a pellet gun onto my flame thrower? If you don't want to use a jet on the Pentagon how about a old fashioned truck bomb?
The Pentagon crash, witnesses, plane parts and more --->>
 http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/JohnJudge/PAandAAF77.html

I hope that this puts a nail in the Pentagon missile idea unless of course better evidence surfaces, but truly the gov. could have done all that by releasing all the info it has... the purported missing frames from the security camera, and probably more importantly the security film from the gas station across the street.
It makes one think that they do this on purpose to help promote theories that can be torn down thereby discrediting all the better ones.

Look what Amy did! 30.May.2004 18:24

Juan Ramirez juan@naicr.org

As you can see in the picture, left-wing gatekeepers like Amy Goodman work hard for the CIA to bring the American consumers their middle-class lifestyles. However as this picture (and others which may be seen at the following link:
 http://iarnoticias.com/secciones/irak/0068_fotos_ninos_de_irak_29may04.html )
demonstrate, America is anything but beautiful. Americans must pay for their atrocities! The US government is illegal and a danger to the human race! People like Amy Goodman must be stopped!

Viva la revolucion!

"American Love"

to the "Realist" 30.May.2004 18:29

different realist

QUOTE:
Give Up Or Die 30.May.2004 08:18
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Realist link

I have bad news for all you internet debating society folks.

It's hopeless, totally hopeless. If a big "incident' like the Kennedy assassination or 911 isn't solved in a few weeks, then it will never be solved. The simple fact, that took me a long time to understand, is that 99% of the American people will never believe in great "conspiracies". They really think we are the bastions of freedom and democracy around the world, and that we live in a free enterprise system. If I mention anything to my friends even slightly outside of their televised reality, I am looked at as if I just landed from Mars. I no longer waste my time.

REPLY:
Actually, I have totally created a context in which people I know are actively interested in such things, so I suppose that it would depend on the friend or family group. Sometimes I am shocked myself!It is possible to discuss this with Americans. Of course perhaps I just know people who are innately outside and fed up with the two headed one-party corporate state system anyway, and that helps, though yes, it is very possible to discuss the whole ramifications of 9-11 in my experience.

Keep it up. Unraveling this, unravels everything. Believe it!

talk about what actually fell the towers, tell Amy 30.May.2004 18:42

me

I hope more people send this seismograph image into Amy Goodman, it will do her good.

The topic of importance is the seismograph instead of the abstract gov't disinfo topic of 'physics'.

Whenever physics is brought up, all you have to do is say

(a) they stole illegally all the steel from the towers, send it overseas mostly to keep it out of U.S. jurisdiction--as per Guiliani's order, why would they do that?

(b) Why do even fire chiefs say that the 'fire story' about the collapses of the WTCs are a total sham?

(c) What about the firemen and dozens of witnesses who heard the explosions throughout the towers as they were escaping?

..
The Magic Skeleton Key into a 9-11 conspiracy denier's brain
The Magic Skeleton Key into a 9-11 conspiracy denier's brain
just a few of the dozens of demolition squibs (.WMV video, 400k)
just a few of the dozens of demolition squibs (.WMV video, 400k)

Couple of Add-0ns 30.May.2004 19:47

Zorro

1. The wreckage of the Towers was hauled out to the Fresh Kills fill, closed before 9/11 and bought up by the Carlisle Group (que coincidencia!).

2. I don't buy the Flight 77 into Pentagon lie. Even the 7/11 has tapes of robberies, yet there has been NOT ONE photo or video of a commercial jet coming into the Pentagon, even though thousands of people along the flight path knew that something could happen. No wreckage outside except a planted tail section well away from the impact hole which was only a symmetrical 18 feet wide. According to pentagon workers, NO wreckage inside either. No Black Box info. No recorded casualty list or funerals. No nuttin except CIA simulation letters and plants.

You Da Fools 30.May.2004 19:49

The Realist

The Realist is always right - he has the life experience you lack.... you live in The Matrix - The Truman Show.


Here comes all the peeps with their "if we only get a few more people on board we can get rid of these rascals" pie in the sky BS. Let me tell you a few things:

This country is bathed in blood, thats how you got the land you live on. Death and destruction is the Darwinian rule of survival of the species. The White Western European slaughtered about 13 million Indians, brought in 3 million African slaves to pick cotton and used Chinese and Irish slave labor to build the railroads. When the Chinese coolies asked for their pay they were dumped in ditches and buried alive. We also stole the Southwest, and those people never forgot, and they are multiplying about three times faster than you. You are soon to be surrounded by people who hate you. There has never been a no-shots-fired complete take over of a nation-state in History. You will be the first to witness this. Not only will you witness it, you will welcome it. You see, the splendid viciousness that our ancestors possessed has been slowly bred out of you. Can you walk down the street and kill every Mexican man woman and child you see? I think not. Thats why all this conspiracy crap is so silly. You are destined for self extinction - since you dont want having kids to ruin your opulent lifestyle. White people will be ensconced in Zoos, where Hispanics can walk by their cages with their family in tow, and laugh and throw peanuts at them.

You, Mr. White man, are no longer needed. The tech stuff can be done in India and the manufacturing can be done in China. Virtually all the advanced papers in universities have Asian names at the bottom. You have been abandoned by big brother. Nobody in power cares if you live or die. If you get in an auto accident, if you have no money, you will be left there. And once nano-manufacturing comes online, human labor itself will no longer be necessary anyway. After genetic engineering gets the telomeres all figured out, the Rothschields (Amschels), Roggenfelders, Schiff's, Lazards, Warburgs, Kuhn's, Loeb's and their ilk can live virtually forever.

The future is grim and grimmer. Get your carbon monoxide suicide kit now whilst you still can, fools.

Would you rather have Ann Coulter, I'll take 1,000,000 Amy Goodmans in the CIA 30.May.2004 19:51

Mark

If Amy Goodman is with the CIA, so be it. At least there will be one person in that organization with heart, dedication to the the truth, balls and sensitivity all rolled up into one.

So she's had a couple of corporate guests on her show. Big damn deal. She is getting popular and has done more for the side of truth than most.

You are being over critical or you are a plant to dilute her work.

If youve got some criticism of her go and talk to her and maybe she'll put you on her show. Tell her what you've found about 9-11 or whatever it is you do but direct your criticism to those who deserve it in spades not one like Amy.

What do WE expect? 30.May.2004 20:19

WJAnthony

This site, like many sites demonstrates that many people have genuine concern about the situation that we as a nation face. As youth, we probably heard about incidents in ages past where innocent people in other parts of the world suffered horrible deaths for the crimes of their leaders and government. We were told about those examples with the inference that such things happen to "other people" not Americans.

photos of wreckage 30.May.2004 22:03

klaatu

Zorro, there are photographs of wreckage inside. There is plenty of other evidence that points to something other then the government story and the seismic evidence is certainly amongst the best, it cannot be shipped off to China, burned or otherwise made to disappear. And the "pod" under the wtc 2 jet. NO one has a really good explanation for that that I have yet seen, including the best debunkers.

 http://www.rense.com/general32/phot.htm

 http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/JohnJudge/PAandAAF77.html

What a fucking FREAK OUT 30.May.2004 22:09

ha ha

Sounds like some of you should just marry her.

Sounds like others should just change the channel.

Let's Agree to Agree 30.May.2004 22:10

Kids in the Corner

Can we at least agree that something fucked up happened that day? Something planned by those bringing the "clampdown"? Because that's all that matters, not who Amy Goodman may or may not be working for? Shit, who's Michael Moore working for? Who cares? We don't have time for this in-fighting. Us conspiracy theorists know what Bohemian Grove is. After that, I think our heads are on the chopping block. Enjoy your summer, folks.

Let me explain, Mark 30.May.2004 22:15

GRINGO STARS

What many people have been trying to say is that, despite the good work that Amy does, she has been chosen by Democracy Now! to do her work BECAUSE she ignores certain issues (Palestine, 911, etc).

The CIA has worked VERY hard to CREATE a pro-capitalist parallel "left" here in the US. All traces of the socialists, anarchists, or violent revolutionaries, have been non-funded out of existence.

Meanwhile Amy is well-funded, touring with a well-distributed book, and her show is very well publicized by countless loyal viewers/listeners.

SHE has the power to hit the authorities where it hurts: the uncomfortable "anomolies" of 911. Yet she refuses to do so. She rarely airs concerns about 911. When she does, she lets people represent the problesm of the official 911 conspiracy who are less than convincing or prepared.

Why? There are countless mechanisms that allow journalists to know how NOT to "bite the hand that feeds them." The CIA-funded foundations (Soros, Ford, Carlyle, Carnegie, Rockefeller, etc) make it very clear what is off-bounds. And Amy is obediently "doing what is expected of her."

She can rattle the cage ONLY if she is NOT socialist, NOT anarchist, NOT revolutionary, NOT violent, and most importantly, as long as she most definitely IS capitalist. She is under no circumstances to question the capitalist system. Just watch. She never will. Ever. She can imply that capitalism should be run in a "kinder, gentler" way, and encourage Personality Politics and suggest which smiling politician will Save Us All From Doom, but for her to ever suggest that capitalism is inherently constantly-warmongering or abusive to its own workers would be tantamount to cutting her off from funding forever. In that, she is an equal to Ann Coulter.

Pentagon missile 30.May.2004 23:06

zorro

klaatu thanks, but why the ambiguous photos of wreckage when everything else is "classified." One would think that it would be in the nations interest to open the thing up. Yet we have the same pattern of evidence destruction as in New York. I can't believe that a large commercial jet could approach the 14th street bridge area of DC under 9/11 alert without a dozen videos being taken of it and a thousand visuals, and even if it did it wouldn't get through that hole without shearing its wings off. Using Occams Razor got to say that we have a "shock and awe" rocket hit, possibly from one of the small jets that I hear were in the area.

The unanswered question is "what happened to the passengers?" Probably classified.

Lawyers' Paralysis Syndrome 31.May.2004 07:41

PatrickSMcNally@aol.com

I am reminded of the RFK murder case and the defense of Sirhan Sirhan. Some have alleged that the lawyer was really part of the murder plot and offered a floppy defense. The usual response has been to point out that a legal defense is often subject to Lawyers' Paralysis Syndrome, where the defense begins building a faulty case at the outset working with very incomplete information. As the case rolls on, new information comes to light, but the defense has trapped itself within an operative framework (not guilty by reason insanity in the case of Sirhan) and fails to update the framework to fit new data. Many defense cases have failed because of this, and it also seems to have overwhelmed the formal left since 911. Though some of the early responses were good in the context of incomplete data, at this point today the data has been assembled together to a significant degree. Though some of the early pre-cautions by Norman Solomon were accurate enough, he has failed to supercede the beginning. The story about "Mohammed Atta" (the guy who forgot his German) receiving money from Pakistan was correctly viewed with skepticism by Solomon because of the Indian source of the story, today we know that the only suspicious-looking 'Mideasterners' in the area of 911 were Israelis. This is the time for Solomon to point out the close alliance between India and Israel, not retreat into the official story. Lawyers' Paralysis Syndrome has been the death of the left. Most notable about this fact is that such a failure runs across intra-left ideological boundaries. Anarchists, Trotskyists, Maoists and many others have fallen flat in a way that doesn't reflect any old-time theoretical disputes.

Aluminum, rocking boats, and race 31.May.2004 07:59

klaatu

Zorro, those are damn good questions and there are better ones too. Occam's razor cuts both ways, Why wouldn't there then be dozens of videos showing an F-16 ? The over arching question for me is; why would the plotters choose anything but an airliner with the chance that someone somewhere would have a fine video showing the whole thing and risk busting the operation? Why? There is no answer.

As for the hole I don't know and i have heard very few crash investigators, none actually, talk about it... i have heard lots of people who never studied so much as an automobile crash comment about it though. I have seen a video of a Phantom jet on a rocket sled impacting a concrete block as some kind of test, the thing literally disintegrates into bits and that jet is basically a rather solid engine with wings. Passenger Jets are like aluminum balloons, hell, water balloons with humans being primarily liquid and especially in the case of the wings where the fuel they carry weighs more than the wings themselves. When they hit something they "splash". They will not 'break off' as in a low speed landing mishap, they will explode into shreds of confetti. There was a crash in the Everglades where an airliner just disappeared into the swamp, not even a hole. Granted both these examples involve different conditions one impacting concrete, the other a swamp but in each case nothing 'broke off' into an easily recognizable piece. What we are missing is a proper investigation which would run a test and figure out the possible reasons for the size of the hole, that, and the black box, hell all the black boxes. 9-11 Physics has some excellent speculation on this and those are all questions that need answers. In the end though, for myself I am not buying the missile into the Pentagon. The things you HAVE to believe are just a bridge too far...for me.
Plus there are so many other evidences that are better, the cell phones... please! have you ever tried your cellphone at anything over 10K feet?
Why everything is classified? probably because they are hiding something... same reason they are retroactively classifying Sibel Edmonds.
What happened to the passengers? I can envision a Operation Northwoods scenario or, they died in the crash. I consider very seriously the possibility that everyone was knocked out... imagine how easy it is to put everyone to sleep while sitting in an aluminum tube and remotely fly the craft in. I think this may have happened to KAL 007 as well.
-------------------------------
As for the importance of whether Amy is a Left Gatekeeper it is important, crucially important. You want to take a ride on the boat which is always rocking Left to Right with the objective of always keeping each wing at each other's throats? Divide and Conquer. Who is making the waves? And why is so hard to believe that the sick science of mass manipulation has not advance beyond Edward Bernays and that you are somehow immune to it? Visit the CIA in the 60's as a post above shows as well as Bernays.
Example:
"The guy who came out to fix my well, a country kind of guy, used to be a well known and successful farmer and breeder. He described to me just how corporate tactics decimated independent hog farmers across the USA, a very interesting story. In the end he said "well like they say, ya can't fight City Hall" I told him he has everything in common with the FTAA demonstrators and a whole lot in common with Central American farmers. He didn't disagree but maybe he just didn't know what I was talking about. It would not take much to convince him though.
At the risk of being accused of setting up a strawman let's presume for the sake of argument that he is a flag waving Bush supporter and thinks those hippys in Miami are traitors. This is in the Hill Country of Central Texas so it's not an unreasonable supposition.
It would then be a perfect example of how we are taught to fight each other while the Protocols advance. To find examples like this, when the Matrix gets torn. ... follow the money." Now imagine that the phony divide is dissolved.
----------------------------------------

And Realist, what makes you think that the Nano Rothschilds will not turn you out into the fields to slave for their plantations. There seem to be plenty who are willing to fight in our Army. What makes you think the the Indians won't ever take land back from the evil Conquistadors? You put a spin on this just like a common racist. What makes you think the very concept of race as commonly understood is not but one more Divide and Conquer strategy?

 http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=00055DC8-3BAA-1FA8-BBAA83414B7F0000

Wake Up And Live 31.May.2004 10:58

The Realist

<<<<And Realist, what makes you think that the Nano Rothschilds will not turn you out into the fields to slave for their plantations. There seem to be plenty who are willing to fight in our Army. What makes you think the the Indians won't ever take land back from the evil Conquistadors? You put a spin on this just like a common racist. What makes you think the very concept of race as commonly understood is not but one more Divide and Conquer strategy?>>>>

You apparently want to suck me into one of those philosophical dog chasing tail arguments that seem to populate the internet ever more frequently. In fact, you are just killing time till you die. You either have crossed the divide and understand how the work works, or you don't. There is no in between.

Statistically, you have 77 years here on planet Earth, and 4-10 hrs. a day typing away about the WTC or Amy Goodman is only for those that are retarded. If anyone arose from the masses that appeared to have a chance at changing things - he would be killed so fast he wouldn't even know what hit him.

Of course I am not safe from the bloodlines, and there are plenty of white crackers living in shacks (like Jessica Lynch) more than willing to be cannon fodder, and dont forget that 53% of the Marine Corp is Mexican/Hispanic.

The Indians will never take back this "country" - they dont have nanotech, quantum computers and genetic engineering. Neither will you. The new plantation will be a cubicle - not a corn field. When Eli Whitney invented the cotton gin, the black man became irrelevant to this society. And now YOU Mr./Mrs. America are no longer needed to create wealth for the Corporation.

You will not have a well paying job
You will not have Social Security
You will not have health care/eye care or dental
You will not have a union
Whatever you have in the bank will be taken from you
You house will be foreclosed on
You will learn another language
You will accept a low paying job in another country, where you WILL be treated like a "nigger"
You WILL accept complete electronic monitoring of your every second of existence - when you pee, they will know when, how far, what volume, what chemical makeup, and its location within a few inches

Racism is hard wired into us. I know you dont like to hear this, but as they say, "birds of a feather flock together". Even in jail, the inmates self segregate - the blacks, the whites, the browns. Brought to magnet schools, students then go home to their segregated neighborhoods. Even in wealthy black neighborhoods, with manicured lawns, few whites move in. I know you look at yourself as a "superior" example of humankind, devoid of all racism and "homophobia". You probably kiss yourself in the mirror every morning when you wake up. But I dont hate blacks, they were brought here 300 years ago to serve a purpose - make the colonies economically viable by making labor costs near zero. Exactly what the same people are doing now to you Mr. Software Compiler. If the blacks were not here, obviously there would be no racism against them. One does not hate ones own race - unless one is retarded. I dont WANT to hate Mexicans or Blacks, but I dont want to live in a country where I am the minority. Do YOU want to live in Cuban Haitian Miami?? Puerto Rican New York? Harlem? Compton?
The places where you can live in peace are diminishing every day. Some parts of NEBRASKA are turning Mexican. Do you want SPANISH to be the language of commerece in the U.S.? Do you want that sign to read "Laundromat" or "Lavanderia"??? Of course, this is being done deliberately. No other explanation can be given for the insane way "illegals" are given every break. It defies all logic and reason - and goes against self preservation. The bloodlines know they dont have to do anything to incite racial strife - THEY JUST HAVE TO LET THEM IN!

I have better things to do than argue with people who just dont get it. Let's say you folks "solve" 911 - waddayougonnadoabouddit? Will that change anything, or just shuffle the deckchairs on the Titanic??

FWIW:
There is a guy on the web (of only several) who DOES "get it", and he has a rant on what he feels will be our future for perhaps the next five years. I really implore you to go to www.kcandassociates.org, click on "Enter Here" (username - cats) (password - simple) and scroll down about a third and read "The Future of America..."
Stop pissing in the wind and get a clue - O.K.???

Mind Control 31.May.2004 11:29

zorro

klaatu, these mind-boggling questions bespeak pervasive mind control over large populations. Unless we bring in a spiritual source, in my mind there is only one organization which is sufficiently vetted and disciplined so as to accomplish suppression of these questions. This organization, which also may have had a role in the Warren Commission, has to be Freemasonry. The rationale, in true "ends justify means," is that 9/11 is for the long term future good of humanity. Definitely an assault on Christian principles.

Amy is just another player in the trade-in-Bush-for-Kerry campaign. Looks as if we'll have to have a new set of tires for the old buggy every four years from now on.

Incidentally, you might check Alex's this day item on the Cleveland Airport. The 200 missing passengers jibes well with the total passengers of the four 9/11 airplanes.

As re KAL007 you'll remember that Sens Helms and Symms were tranferred off KAL008 in Anchorage, leaving poor Larry McDonald to proceed onward to the tender care of the those who guide our destinies.

Amy Goodman and the CIA 31.May.2004 11:38

Don Earl

Only a fool can make a fool out of himself. No one can do it for him.

Griffin included items so poorly documented and speculative, he left himself wide open to attack. It serves no useful purpose to be critical of the official story, then abandon all reason in accepting alternate theories. While I've seen more than a few comments over the years about the "media whores" in the mainstream press, who are only interested in making a fast buck on poorly researched articles, what exactly would you call a college professor using the same approach in writing a book?

I've studied the arguments on the missing plane - missile theory. The only thing I've found to be impressive is the remarkable eloquence used to support an absurd argument. The evidence does not support the theory. The only argument the evidence supports is that a cover up was involved. It isn't possible to go beyond that conclusion without appearing foolish. The same goes for the bin Laden and the CIA hospital visit story, but for different reasons. While it's possible it could be true, the entire account is based on unsubstantiated hearsay. There's no basis upon which the story could be treated as an established fact.

The sad truth is those of us who have done serious research on 9/11, are in a situation where in order to maintain credibility, we are held to unimpeachable quality standards. A tough row to hoe I admit, especially considering many of us do not have formal training in collecting and presenting evidence in a crime. There are so many smoking guns surrounding 9/11, I consider it pure lunacy to present the one that has never been loaded, then proudly point to it as being the murder weapon.

Amy Goodman may or may not be a person of honor, although it strikes me as a dirty trick to intentionally pick a fool to be the representative spokesperson of those researching 9/11. The real issue is why Griffin included the most heavily debated and controversal questions surrounding 9/11 as the foundation of his work. Was it by accident or design he included positions nearly impossible to defend and certain to be attacked?

What about Miami? 31.May.2004 11:43

Migratory Bird

What about Miami?

Amy Goodman does very valuable work. Her staff is incredibly dedicated and does amazing work! Lord knows there could be more voices roaring out our truths, but why silence or alienate the few voices that get heard under the fear chanel regime?

You know what?, though, I appreciate the voices that argued ferverently for and against this topic. I suppose this has been an underground worry for awhile now and I am glad that people are writing about it openly.

I think the work Jeremy did in Miami was very courageous.

There have been many programs that Amy have done that I have simply turned off they were so annoying to me. But even more there have been the programs that were so amazing that I just sat there saying OOOOOOHHHHHH SHIT! That's what is happening! Oh shit, no! No where in corpy journalism do you find her stories. Nowhere in independent journalism do you find her salary.


I work hard every day. I am spending my red cent on doing my journalism. Amy gets paid. Herein lies the difference.

Also Amy is a team.

Alex Jones = More Facts, Less Speculation and Zero Bull 31.May.2004 13:05

DRUMBEAT

Amy Goodman...

No matter what you think of her, you have to admit you dont know everything about her. Besides, let's face it, left movement is not quaranteened from government infiltration. So, who knows? And should we really care? Because, there are other, more reliable sources of news.

But then, if you are looking for facts and you have the capacity to form your opinion, I highly recommend Alex Jones. Thats where you get the real juice. Our views may differ, but I know I can rely on this guy because of his knowledge, experience and integrity. He has been there for awhile, and fearlessly supported our freedoms.

I compare Alex's reports and Amy's work and I see that Amy lacks what real journalist needs to have in our rocky times. Quite frankly, I suspect she is supported by powers behind the curtains. What if she is there to detract us from more important news? Why am I asking this? Listen to Alex Jones and you will understand.

It would be naive to think that propaganda machine would overlook left movement and leave it be. It needs to be controlled and filterred. Are you being controlled and filterred?

time till you die 31.May.2004 13:24

klaatu

Zorro, Indeed I think an evolutionary sea change spiritual recourse is the only option, eventually these questions will come to " How is it possible that humans can willingly buy lies, offer their young to slaughter and kill their fellow man and be proud of it...

And Realist, all this thrashing around and questioning must inevitably lead to such questions... spiritual questions. So it is NOT useless.

About Racism, obviously not quite as clean as the Sci. Am article points out and here is perhaps a more thoughtful take.
"When you talk about race as a relationship, it prevents anyone from giving it false meaning."
 link to www.sciam.com

------------------------------------------

"In fact, you are just killing time till you die" ... Please man, get a grip.
I don't want to suck you into anything. Why are YOU here ...if you think this is so damn pointless? Why?

I think you and I are much closer to being in agreement than you may realize.

I already feel like an alien and in fact have been, and I live among what is putatively called "my race or my country" Hell no I don't want to live in a hopeless victimized ghetto or an Foxified Disneyland Twilight Zone Suburbia either for that matter. Can I immigrate to the the Iroquois Nation?

Of course all this is being done deliberately! You cannot have real nations and a New World Order at the same time can you?

As for Democracy Now, MoveOn and for anyone who who wants to break past the limited hangout we are fed from the left and the right... see how many will frontally criticize Israel, or mention words like Freemasonry, Rothschild, Bank of England, Federal Reserve. Buzzflash? nope, DN! rarely.

Fine, your enemy is my enemy, but just remember that that alone does not make a true ally as the disgusting Lefty pandering to George Soros illustrates. ..... And if the Zionazis, the Christozions and neocons and masons win they will rip themselves apart as well sacrificing their children in the process too. After all don't the Cristofascists have to convert the Jews somewhere down the line? Allies indeed.

That said check this RealPlayer movie, released today.

 http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6268.htm

I'm about rambled out.... going to the rifle range.

Alex Jones is a moron 31.May.2004 13:32

duh

Alex Jones is exactly the type of garbage the CIA would rather you fill your head with. While you're busy looking for RFID tags in Andrew Jacksons eye, they can carry on wit their business, undisturbed.

I strongly suggest people look at Alex Jones websites as well as Infowars with an objective fair view. The only logical conclusion you'll be able to come up with is that Alex Jones and Infowars are a misdirection (unless you're stupid). They like to take a grain of truth and add a ton of lies to thier crap.

Here's a great example of Alex Jones idiotic misdirections:
his "RFID in Jacksons right eye on a $20 bill" story at  http://www.prisonplanet.com/022904rfidtagsexplode.html

Here's a quote:

"So we chose to 'microwave' our cash, over $1000 in twenties in a stack, not spread out on a carasoul. Do you know what exploded on American money?? The right eye of Andrew Jackson on the new twenty, every bill was uniform in it's burning... Isnt that interesting?"


"not spread out" he says, because he knows it will take ten times longer for the money to burn, duh....

Any idiot can cut up some paper so it's similiar in size to money, stack it up and put it in the microwave and see the exact same burn pattern as shown at the link to his retarded claim. The fact that he puts this shit forth as news or even potential fact is just more evidence of what a complete moron he and his followers are. People that believe his shit think they're doing they world a favor or something, when actually they are just acting as enablers to the very forces they fear so much.

Alex Jones is for retards.

Another resource for telling Pacifica how this story made you feel. 31.May.2004 17:27

Bushwhacked

The Pacifica radio forum:  http://pacifica.org/forums/index.php

Have Fun! :)

The comment from "duh"... 31.May.2004 19:24

GRINGO STARS

...makes for a poor argument against Alex Jones. Especially the "AJ is for retards" or "Alex Jones and Infowars are a misdirection (unless you're stupid)." etc.

Such insight!

Such an unreasonable comment led me to check out Alex Jones site:
 http://www.prisonplanet.com/
...and it seems to be a good site. This very thread is linked to at the bottom of Alex Jones' site, as a matter of fact.

To all those who think that the CIA is inactive in the left, you would do well to read a book by Frances Stonor Saunders called:
The Cultural Cold War: The CIA and the World of Arts and Letters
 link to www.amazon.com
It catalogs the CIA's establishment of the pro-capitalist parallel "left" beginning in the 40's, leading up to the present day.

Amy Goodman's Democracy Now! and Pacifica are a part of the modern-day equivalent of these programs. Goodman's Anybody-But-Bush lesser-evilism and fetish for impotent electoral politics is both sincere as well as cynically propagated by her CIA-affiliated funders.

Do your own research! Think for yourself! Don't believe BS! 31.May.2004 22:29

StoneWT stonewt@aol.com

I read the debate. Griffin came off as an ignorant *ss. His tactic was to ignore Berlet's responses and point to the 'mountain' of other 'facts' (crap?) in his book.

The questions posed by so-called 9-11 'truth' researchers reveal the lack of actual research. The same horribly bad 'questions' are repeated even after being refuted.

There are lists of eyewitnesses to the Pentagon crash, photos of the wreckage, and corroborating evidence from nearby. The fact that an average joe can find the following links during his spare time while supposed 'researchers' dedicated to finding the 'truth' stumble around with their eyes closed saying nothing is there points to either incompetence on the part of the 'researchers' or deliberate misinformation.

1.  http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/blflight77.htm

The above site has it all. If you are honest, you'll check it out. If you are just a clown promoting crap on the Internet...

2.  http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.htm

Another excellent site making mincemeat of the Pentagon 'no plane' hoax.

3.  http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/hunthoax.html

 http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ppfinal.html

The above two links are from Mike Rivero's site What Really Happened. Contains video of eyewitnesses and other things not found on other sites.

4.  http://www.nationalreview.com/robbins/robbins040902.asp

An article by James S. Robbins, an eyewitness.

5.  http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/pentagone/erreurs_en.htm

Meyssan's site. You can check the crap he used for his hoax theory for yourself.

Read the links before responding. All of retarded conspiracy claims about the Pentagon are answered in the above links. And please, don't respond with a false cry for professorial research and 'fairness' when you don't have the foggiest notion of those things.


to "Realist" 31.May.2004 22:36

a suggestion

why not just kill yourself?

save you - and the rest of Planet Earth - a lot of trouble.

note from former US intel op 01.Jun.2004 02:24

Kenyon cotingas@hotmail.com

While I missed the Griffin interview, (I live outside the US anyway), I have read the above comments, finding them interesting. Like Griffin, I am the author of a 9/11 book, and have been in contact with Griffin.
That said, I do not know a lot about him or Goodman, so the comments here were illuminating. I will further research both of them.
The basic arguments about 9/11 cannot be ignored, and there is, as Griffin noted, a mountain of evidence. Many have asked for the inconsistencies to be explained, and, not surprisingly, this is never satisfied; instead, there is more self-righteous assertion that conspiracry theorists are just paranoid and stupid. I did not find Griffin either of the above; just for the record, he is the author/editor of over twenty books, and is a professor at Claremont College.
Many other people who see throught the 9/11 story are like him - educated and articulate. The facts about indider trading, the Pentagon crash, the seismographic evidence, the criminal background of Bush et al. (including his paedophile past), are not something an intelligent person can ignore. Sadly, the media and religion in the US are in tune to the establishment.
More power to Griffin, Kaminsky, Jones, Haupt, et al. We really need honest government and honest people.
BTW, the book that I wrote is out now in Arabic, the first edition sold out (after getting Min. of Info. approval for sale in Saudi Arabia: I had to delete a few comments about the House of Saud. My book did not take sides and was not an incitement to hate America, so a few Arabs did not like what I had to say. Welcome to the free world...It's not only the Bushes that stifle truth) The ISBN # is 9953 29 991 9. As I do not speak Arabic, I really cannot pronounce the title. Hopefully my book will be available in English. E-mail me if you wish to have a chapter as an attachment, or know of a publisher willing to take this on.)

You da Fool 01.Jun.2004 03:05

The Realist

sorry,
here's the post again without "HTML formatting"

<<<a suggestion
why not just kill yourself?
save you - and the rest of Planet Earth - a lot of trouble.>>>

Excellent. I love your answer. Like I said, the message is so grim and painful, that it is too terrible to contemplate. What you REALLY mean to say is that YOU want to kill ME. The same reaction when you tell someone that their religion (faith based system) is bedrocked on myth and superstition. Anger and violence boils up. Kill the messenger. Always the same reaction. Always. So predictable.

Actually, I am looking currently for a remote general store with a gas pump. Like Mayberry and ol' Gomer. When martial law is enacted, food and gas will be allocated. Stores will get a share. You see, I AM survival oriented, and will make it. You are emotionally unstable, and will not. So sorry.

Quote:
(Posted under fair use discussion only protocol)


 http://batr.org/gulag/012203.html
The Nature of American Denial


Corridor of the American Asylum

At the core of self delusion is the inability and/or the unwillingness of facing reality. While psychological disorders can often explain abnormal behavior in individuals, the exegesis for deviant social attitudes and accompanying conduct is reserved for society. Or so we are told! But does this make sense to you? As long as you accept that reality does exist and that it can be understood, it follows that we have the right, the ability and the obligation to comprehend it and adjust our actions accordingly.

Most Americans view, of their own personal identity, is inculcated by the political culture. Delmar England, in his provocative work - Mind and Matters, The World in a Mirror - offers this valuable insights into our mutual and shared condition: "In human affairs, as surely as effect is preceded by action, action is preceded by belief, and belief is preceded by thought and conclusions."

Applying this standard to politics Mr England depicts government is this fashion:

"For all the sidestepping, dance arounds, word games, and confused rhetoric, the term government is easily defined; not by subjective agreement, but by reference to objective reality and the actual entities involved. First, we know that there is no such thing as an infinite entity and that the term, government, necessarily denotes a relationship. The actual entities involved are human individuals. The base options of relationships between individuals are non-initiation of force and non-coercion, or initiation of force and coercion. It makes no difference how many different subjective labels are put upon the situation, the objective fact remains that at the root of it all, these are the only two options. The former is in recognition of the individual as a self-owned entity. The latter is based on the idea of an individual being the property of an "infinite entity"; which is the "justification" for rule by the individuals who hide behind the abstracts and exercise their will to dominate and control all others."

"The subjective and arbitrary labels arbitrarily associated with government such as democracy, socialism, communism, etc. are purely for the purpose of self-delusion. Although form of implementation may vary and some versions start closer to ultimate self-destruction than other versions, the common and identifying objective content of each and every one is initiation of force and coercion. Millions may volunteer for such an anti-social system and play self-deluding word games for the sake of preferred self-image, but all the pretense in the world and "definitions by agreement" will not erase the truth about government, nor prevent the certain violent consequences of initiation of force and coercion."

No doubt, this is a correct assessment. Virtually every society and country operates with the implied and universal acceptance that government is natural and ordained. The individual accepts force and coercion as a substitute for avoiding the risk and responsibility of personal Freedom. MindMatters concludes with this point:

"Rather than freedom being the highest value sought by most, it is their deepest and most abiding fear. So much so that they can't even envision it."

American denial has caused an epidemic dysfunctional confusion. The delusion that our own self identify is equivalent with the "collective will" of society; which, in turn is synonymous with the government and its policies, is a sociopathic sickness. The antisocial behavior of the STATE demonstrates all the characteristics of a profile of a sociopath. Apply the top five to the demeanor of government: Glibness/Superficial Charm - Manipulative and Conning - Grandiose Sense of Self - Pathological Lying - Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt. We are all taught what we should believe about government; but only the fool, the liar or the delusional accepts that our - self-owned entity - benefits from the force and coercion that the State demands upon us.

Robert L. Kocher has compiled a body of works far too numerous, on this topic to cite sufficiently. We urge you to review and absorb the wisdom in his insights. Most of the lessons detail the last administration, but are completely relevant to the current regime. One essay, especially compliments the Delmar England conclusion. Mr Kocher writes in American Mental Health and Politics:

"If some of us are appalled, frightened, and even driven half crazy by the maddeningly and complacently silly or psychotic levels of denial, by the superficiality, by the abysmal immaturity, by the primitive level of personality structure, by the too-easily employed distorted rationalizations, by the lack of contact with basic reality that we deal with in our daily lives, hear in our college faculties, and see on TV and in high political office, we can nevertheless know that the reality of our perceptions is validated by mental health figures as well as those patients being seen in therapist's offices."

Currently, the national mood is absorbed in the illusion that Americans are at risk and that they are in danger from terrorists abroad. While reality demonstrates that enemies of America are plentiful, the disconnect that their veridical hatred is focused upon the U.S. Government and its policies, is concealed. Vast numbers of Americans feed their denial that they are the target of madmen; while they seek comfort in the fallacy that support for the WAR Party will make them safe. The force and coercion that the government imposes upon you, under the pretext that it is necessary and protective, diminishes your safety as it destroys your Liberty. The utter fraud of national security policy, seeks only to preserve the government, no matter how much harm it inflictes upon citizens.

So why do so many misguided flag-waving zealots rally to a jingoistic cause? Kocher provides the answer: "We now live in a society where many people no longer want or value freedom. Personal freedom and the responsibility that goes with it are abrasive intrusions or demands upon a crippled self-absorbed internal state."

"American Denial" prevents the admission that U.S. policies only benefit the government. Their own personal delusional perceptions are interchangeable with a phony litmus test, judged by their support for State illusions. The thought of exercising the Freedom to think, criticize, condemn and resist is far too disconcerting to the sheeple. They view their own self worth as an adjunct of an abstract deception; while, the true motives of the government are to control society and all individuals, using force and coercion. Both England and Kocher have it right. The association between an individual and an infinite entity denotes a relationship; and the reluctance or unwillingness to exercise freedom and responsibility, allows the government to implement force and coercion.

"Eternal Vigilance" is no longer enough to preserve Liberty. Sound mental health, appreciation for your own self worth, trust in the integrity of reality and the courage to do battle with the forces that seek to delude your own dignity are all necessary to win this struggle. America is NOT the Government. When policies are dishonest they must be opposed. When officials are depraved they need to be removed. And when your neighbor demands your allegiance to a corrupt government, it is your duty to confront his delusion.

We can no longer afford to be silent in the face of "American Denial".

SARTRE - January 22, 2003

What about Michael Ruppert, he hasn't been featured on Democracy Now 01.Jun.2004 05:50

Chris

Seems to me that Goodman and her show chose David Ray Griffin for this treatment because his book to some level relies on some theories and suppositions in order to support his larger thesis, I am sure Mr Griffin doesn't present everything as proven fact, rather as interesting and noteworthy information which is supportive to his overall thesis. This kind of info is an easy target for being picked apart by the likes of Chip Berlet. just because Griffin notes some contraversial infomation doesn't mean that everything he is saying can be so automatically dismissed.

I find it interesting that a search of democracy now's website locates no references to Mr. Ruppert, he has not been on the show, his work is of a very high journalistic standard, specifically avoids unprovable theoretical side issues, and raises some truly disturbing questions. Mr Berlet would have a much more difficult time picking apart the well documented stuff he brings up.

I think it is possible for some of us to apreciate both the Alex Jones and the Amy Goodman's of this world. While thier politics and world view may differ widely, they are both passionate about their beliefs and committed to getting their message across. I think it time we realize that social justice and political disent are not the exclusive positions of the traditional left. I find Mr. Jones's work to be very dark but I haven't heard him advocate anything that makes me think that he is an agent of the elite.

Amy Goodman and Democracy Now! 01.Jun.2004 08:15

bigskymind

I think we should view with suspicion anyone who tries to insinuate that Amy Goodman and Democracy Now! are in any way linked to the CIA or doing the work of the govt. Anyone who regularly listens to her show (as I do) knows that this charge has ZERO basis. She may or may not agree with some that 911 was a govt.-orchestrated event, but that fact alone proves nothing. Many otherwise radical and progressive folks don't agree Bushco was complicit or that it was govt. orchestrated. That doesn't make them official organs of state propaganda, just people with a different view than our own. I am mindful of the COINTELPRO program of the 60s and 70s against progressive political organizations. It wouldn't surprise me if the FBI and/or CIA has penetrated the 911 Truth Movement for the purpose of sowing seeds of discord, as has happened before.

For myself, I've been planning to write a note thanking Amy Goodman for having two recent shows dedicated to raising the 911 complicity thesis. The show with Griffin was a good one -- the debate format was not hostile, just a smart way to approach a very controversial topic. What I would like to encourage her to do is to revisit the issue, maybe have Nafeez Ahmed on, and/or Griffin again. Because the case is somewhat complex, it cannot be covered in one hour. Her "gotcha" question to Griffin about structural engineers and evidence for controlled demolition of WTC made me suspect Amy is not convinced by Griffin's thesis. But at least she's given it an airing -- which is more than can be said of most leftist media.

maybe your looking in yhe wrong place 01.Jun.2004 08:40

l.c.

All of your collective complaints on 911 complete with a rotating guest list including Ruppert, Mckinney,Catherine Austin Fitz, Michael Elliot,Sibel Edmonnds(not Edwarsd) 1st public interview,Michael Meacher.David Ray Griffin, and many more are adressed along with world news and perspective each week on the INNWorldReport 6pm Fridays on Freespeech TV(not Radio yet). ...The Producer.......PS INNWorldReport.net

Cointelpro tactics 01.Jun.2004 08:43

Kris Millegan ramillegan@aol.com

Now, I may be wrong, but there maybe a scenario "op" going on. .

The Internet has blown big time the level of control over information and created the ability of citizens to comminicate with each other without media filters through personal mass communication. Our culture pushed the technology into something beyond the cabal's and others control.

Traditional cointelpro techniques hace been exposed and new techniques are being developed.

What we have are operatives and ensnared "true believers" trying to set-up themselves up as "the" 9-11 researchers. Claiming that thier "take" is right and all others are part of the modified-limited-hangout.

A new wrinkle has been the apperance of known "op" Chip Berlet on Amy Goodman.

Notice that Chip focussed on the no-plane at the pentagon. This is to furthur muddy the waters and to try and then link Berlets position with others, that also say that there was a plane there. And then try to smear by association of position.

As long-time members know, I have been talking about Berlet and his conspracism charges for years and exposed him for all to see on the NewPacifca list several years ago.

The op players or true believer/useful idiots are:

Scott Loughrey
Gerard Holmgren
Rosalee Grable (a.k.a., the Web Fairy)
Jeffrey G Strahl
"Sean McBride"
Dick Eastman

These folks will play to the crowd with bonafides and patriotic talk.

They are really quite transparent.

Peace,
Om
Kris Millegan
www.ctrl.org

http://www.ctrl.org
800.556.2012

The most useful idiot 01.Jun.2004 10:32

Jack Straw

The most useful idiot is Kris Millegan. He would have you believe that a 757 could fit through a hole in the Pentagon wall much smaller than itself, without leaving any debris on the ground, without the wings or the tail leaving huge marks on the wall and shreds of their destroyed selves on the pristine lawn outside, that somehow the wings could fold back insect-style and enter the building along with the body, whereupon everything catches fire and burns without a trace, yet human bodies and DNA are left behind for identification, that a tiny piece of the body is then found on the lawn, except it's on the wrong side of plane, ie well opposite of its original position on the body, and quite far from the wall, without anything else around. He wants you to believe the account by a friend of John Judge, who saw the plane's tail sitting on the lawn a couple of days later, yet somehow no photos of the disaster caught this tail, which must have ran away and hid. But then, idiots like Millegan are a dime a dozen, they get thrown into these debates when the controllers lose control.

RE: Do your own research! Think for yourself! Don't believe BS! 01.Jun.2004 11:44

Bushwhacked

ohmygawd, stonewt, looook!!! it's a 757!!!
a 757, or a tinfoil hat?
a 757, or a tinfoil hat?

Societal Denial 01.Jun.2004 12:19

mooksy

We must also take into account that Amy is a long time lover and resident of New York.
There is some level of not wanting to incite a riot with the true 911 revelations and must at least get the conversation started. Such a loosely knit interview 'debate' seems like just the tool to get all of us asking a few questions and then Amy won't have to light that fire herself.

While not necessarily beholden to the 'Aggro-Petro' dollars like NPR, DM has a few things to worry about. It might come in the form of a city inspector condemning the firehouse stidio's where DM now is broadcast from and there is a very real possibility that whomever came to her rescue to provide the funds for the broadcast center and continued coverage might well have asked that a few stories be depricated. It didn't have to be the CIA, it might have been member's of her (mother's?) synagogue. Guttman? whatever.

The basic facts are extremely suspicious and the ball is rolling for some kind of disclosure, but expect the BushKerry hijinks to be accelerated a step to coincide with the actual disclosure so that it can be muddied by some horror or another. I think it interesting that few seem to accept that the tidal wave of evil, brought on by depression-era post-childhood-trauma survivors (Ol' "gimmie half" George) who erroneously believe that there is NOT enough to go around are going to be sorely depressed by all of those biodiesel cookin, hydroponic vegetable growing, neer do wells that suddenly pop up from the swamp like so many well educated, strong and highly earthbound native peoples of all races working for human dignity and compassion around the wired world.

At MOST the Great White cabal number about a million or so souls (the presence of a soul is still open to debate) and IMHO the OTHER 6.2 BILLION people will do just fine with or without them.

Spin the circles and arrive at your own doorstep. The truth is out there and it is in here too. One matters more in the long run.

P ea ce

AMY DID GOOD on GRIFFIN Interview 01.Jun.2004 12:26

Bonnie Perkins bonnieperkins2001@yahoo.com

I was very glad Amy had that idiot on to dispute Griffin. That interview made me sooooo mad I just had to get the book! The guy she chose to dispute Griffin was a pure idiot. He kept saying, without proof that Griffin had no proof. Yep! Amy did good. She's not a GOD. She is human and has done more to move the left than anyone who wrote in these IM replies. THANK YOU AMY!


Conspiranoia grips the Conspiratards! 01.Jun.2004 12:46

StoneWT stonewt@aol.com

Jack, could you fit more lies into a paragraph?

"...without the wings or the tail leaving huge marks on the wall..."

"...whereupon everything catches fire and burns without a trace..."

"He wants you to believe the account by a friend of John Judge, who saw the plane's tail sitting on the lawn a couple of days later..."

Have you done any real research into what happened? Nowhere in John Judge's article does his friend, someone that has experience with airlines unlike fraudulent conspiratards, claim the tail of the plane was on the lawn. Also, If you'd do something besides reading the same retarded conspiracy websites, you'd notice that easily identifiable parts of the plane were found in the Pentagon. Heck, just read Judge's article and the links I posted earlier in here. As you seem to have trouble understanding english, get someone to help you.

Also, Holmgren, Web Fairy, and others are incompetents at best.

 http://www.questionsquestions.net/WTC/767orwhatzit.html

The above site exposes their asinine analysis of video.


this is silly 01.Jun.2004 13:57

hellodolly

This is silly. I know the producers personally, and they're not afraid or being intimidated by the CIA, FBI, or any other group. And ask yourselves, What will bring the Bush Administration down? Is it going to be 911 theories or mounting causualties in Iraq? Let's not waste energy on 911 and focus on failures and lies that everyone agrees on, okay?

. 01.Jun.2004 19:24

.

Nice Pentalawn that Rumsfeld has there.
Parts of the U.S. government
Parts of the U.S. government
are a covert terrorist organization
are a covert terrorist organization
killing and praying on its own people for private political goals.
killing and praying on its own people for private political goals.

you low paid disinfo guys bore me, Even Greg Palast loves Alex Jones 01.Jun.2004 19:32

well...

"you'd notice that easily identifiable parts of the plane were found in the Pentagon...."

Lie.

Which parts? Care to get specific? I thought so.

Nothing has ever been identified or claimed as belonging to AA77 at the Pentagon.

The little wisp of metal, according to someone who attempted see where it would have come from by comparing it to type of plane it was claimed to have come from, came away saying that it failed to come from a Boeing. [Eric Hufschimd information/relayed]

As for Alex Jones, he's great. Even Greg Palast loves him:

BBC Reporter Greg Palast: " this guy is a national treasure, a light breaking through the electronic Berlin Wall of the US media establishment."

 http://www.infowars.com/alexjones.html

Saddama bin Ladein 01.Jun.2004 20:38

klaatu

StoneWT,
Straw has obviously not read any of the links provided. Therefore he continues to ask the same questions, some which are good.... if only they had never been addressed... but they have been addressed. By offering no new counter evidence it becomes nonsensical. It's the flip side of trying to give evidence to someone who just knows that Saddama bin Ladein bombed the WTC.

------------------------------------------
CIA and Amy? Who really knows, but it is something to consider. And I do mean "consider". Nothing is proven, there is no direct evidence that I know of. But on the other hand to palm this off as 'who would you rather have" or some other lazy excuse to NOT consider is, well, lazy.

Do you expect just because someone knows a producer that it also must necessarily mean that they are not CIA, Would you tell someone you're CIA if you were CIA? I think not. Further, honest people can be working for nefarious organizations and have no idea at all who they are really working for. That's great because they will honestly tell you that considering this is just impossible. Is that possibility so hard to comprehend? Well somebody has thought this up before.

"We must allow all the federations to continue just as they are, with their systems, their central authorities and their diverse modes of correspondence between high grades of the same rite, organized as they are at the present, but we must create a super rite, which will remain unknown, to which we will call those Masons of high degree whom we shall select. With regard to our brothers in Masonry, these men must be pledges to the strictest secrecy. Through this supreme rite, we will govern all Freemasonry which will become the one international center, the more powerful because its direction will be unknown."--Albert Pike

If you were in possession of the funds, the contacts, the history and the clout that the CIA has what would you do to get the "right" wing out of power? You can't just bomb them all, how hard is it to envision infiltrating their media and either keeping things to a limited hangout or occasionally letting something thru.... you do have your credibility to maintain after all. How about demoralizing them with some really bad pictures of their heros doing someting universally awful. The true believers that don't jump ship will spin themselves into laughing stocks trying to justify this. Too hard? Start your own media outfit, you have virtually unlimited funds.

Take for instance the Plame affair, the questions stop after Valerie Plame, they rarely go on to who wrote the yellow cake fraud. This results in the strange scene of "leftists" screaming about the busting of a CIA operative. Hello?

Take Chalabi, everyone even the best and brightest bloggers out there will jump on this puppy, it's just too damn good. But to believe that Iran is behind it serves who? And what happened to this line of reasoning --- Quoting Xymphora: "In order to believe all this you have to believe that the Iranians would want the Americans to attack Iraq. While they hated Saddam, he was absolutely no danger to them. On the other hand, having Iraq under military occupation by an American government whose stated goal is regime change in all the 'Axis of Evil' countries, including Iran, would be the last thing the Iranians would want. The attack on Iraq was the training wheels for a series of wars against those countries targeted by the neocons, and it was not in Iranian interests for this series of attacks to start. American bases in Iraq would be the perfect staging ground for an attack on Iran. It is preposterous to think the Iranians would use Chalabi to trick the neocons into attacking Iran."

So, another consideration:
MoveOn takes money from Soros, do you think they would then have the temerity to expose Soros? Let's see them write about Soros bailing out Harkin. How about Soros and his glorious "open society" successes in Eastern Europe?

"Soros is also a partner in the infamous Carlyle Group. Organized in 1987, "the world's largest private equity firm" with over twelve billion dollars under management, is run by "a veritable who's who of former Republican leaders," from CIA man Frank Carlucci to CIA head George Bush, Sr. The Carlyle Group makes most of its money from weapons expenditures." --->>  http://homepage.mac.com/kaaawa/iblog/C337802379/E268197586/index.html

Well if true how hard is it to draw a line and connect some dots? Conclusive? No, but If you want to play "you must be my best friend because we both have the same enemy" games do it with open eyes.

Alex Jones is for retards 01.Jun.2004 20:47

ha ha

Oh, well if a BBC reporter loves Alex Jones, he must be OK then.

Go microwave youre money, moron.

Palast is American; disinfo people are traitors 01.Jun.2004 21:01

more

Palst works for the BBC because he is blacklisted by the corporate media of the USA, and because of his hardhitting investigative journalism that is widely hated by the "spy ridden oil soaked monopoly press" of the United States (Skolnick phrase).

Palast is an American. Read his book on American political corruption that was (perhaps still is) on the NYT bestseller lists:

The Best Democracy Money Can Buy: An Investigative Reporter Exposes the Truth About Globalization, Corporate Cons, and High-Finance Fraudsters -- by Greg Palast
 link to www.amazon.com

Amy Goodman's money is CIA money 01.Jun.2004 21:27

GRINGO STARS

Many people working on behalf of the CIA have no odea that is what they are doing. Amy would never do such a thing I sincerely believe. YET Pacifica takes money from the Ford Foundation, which has funders in Skull & Bones, the Trilaterla Commission, the Council of Foreign Relations, The Carlyle Group, and the CIA. Pacifica is the parent of Amy Goodman's Democracy Now!

Democracy Now! gets funding directly from the Carnegie and Kaplan Foundations. Go figure.

Pacifica also gets funding from teh Soros Foundation, which gets money from the CIA and the Carlyle Group.

Pacifica also gets money from teh Corporation for Public Broadcasting, which gets CIA funding via Voice of America.

The CIA NEVER gives money where it will bite them on the ass. The CIA very cynically invests in news organizations which will toe the party line. The party line, in many cases, manifests itself as an "opposition" which is only a play opposition. The "left" that the CIA funds is a peaceful, orderly, electoral, CAPITALIST opposition, which is to say: no real opposition at all.

The CIA does not invest in socialist, anarchist or revolutionary networks. It invests only in well-behaved "professional" journalists which would scoff at the idea of a government attacking its own citizens for political gain. "Professional" journalists rely on OFFICIAL sources in order to enhance their "credibility."

CIA money isn't that difficult to follow. It is a matter of public record. The paragraphs I have written above have been established with FOIA documents which admit the financial relationships between all of these foundations and news organizations.

Propaganda is NEVER heavy-handed, intimidating, threatening, etc. It is far more complex, sophisticated and convincing that it was in the 1930s.

FWIW The Sandia Test. 01.Jun.2004 22:28

klaatu

Phantom disappears--->>  http://www.sandia.gov/media/NRgallery00-03.htm

BTW the pentagon wall was no suburban brick veneer job and the windows were blast 'proof'.
The lawn? The plane never hit the lawn.

Related..... note the wings..... water balloons.
 ftp://ftp.purdue.edu/pub/uns/sozen.pentagon3.jpeg

 http://news.uns.purdue.edu/UNS/html4ever/020910.Sozen.Pentagon.html

Does this answer all the questions? No.

CIA is pissed at the Government 01.Jun.2004 23:00

klaatu

Gringo, if the CIA or whoever does not allow some convincing limited hangout to get thru they will never ensnare the ones they want to dupe. Just as long as it never gets too close to the real agenda. Plus the CIA is pissed at the Government. and why not, they ignored info, outed one of their agents, and did an end run with the OSP. Maybe they feel to hell with the limited hangout let's destroy them, after all the CIA never have to run in an election. When the smoke clears they will still be there. Of course if you get someone like JFK that would be a problem.

Maybe they are just as pissed as Soros who is mainly upset with the clumsy way W is doing the deal, not the deal itself. It's so clumsy and incompetent that everyone can see it like they have never been able to see it before. Better take him down before even the Freepers figure it out. Better infiltrate to help it happen, we can use national security as an excuse if we really need one, we have all those new Patriot Act laws. We can use the antiwar opposition, hell they are already doing the Plame thing for us and stopping before it get's to Sharon's OSP. Meanwhile we get that hangout thing under some sort of control. Much better to get W out so we can have a kinder and gentler lefty looking NWO.
Well.. it's just speculation, has some holes in it. ... jmo

Move past the "microwaved money" and read up on all the Alex Jones 02.Jun.2004 00:26

Jonny SaysThank You PortlandIndyMedia for this exchange...

Alex Jones has made lots of highly valuable videos...
If you haven't seen them, you should search for them....
Free copying and distribution is highly encouraged by Alex,
and he offers reasonable prices if you want to buy from him.
....I wrote letters to the editor here in my city when the
local Pub Access TV board was playing games with DN getting
on the screen, after already scheduling it....but she isn't perfect.
;
I have a pal in LA who thinks his Sierra Club activism is
going to Save something environmental in that benighted place.
He never has an opportunity to see Amy, nor Free Speech TV out of
Boulder, which everybody should try to get ahold of....unfortunately,
sometimes you flip to FSTV looking for something meaningful and
counter-mindfug, only to find "Dyke TV" or similarly mindless,
useless, contributing-to-the-delinquency waste of airtime.
...Thank You, all you lengthy, thoughtful contributors to this
here exchange of thoughts...I have saved-down the whole page.
....I have few friends, and must cut off some of the lock-brains
described above....I don't want to cut them off, but my continued survival
requires that I do not trust half-wits to behave as intelligent people.
;
Nobody has "de-bunked" the FACT that the Pentagon WAS NOT Hit by an
airliner....the clamp-down is well underway...those people aboard
those planes were sacrificed to Moloch and all the rest of the Satanic
entities which rule the Neo-Cons, Zionazis, Red-Schields (Rothschilds),
and the whole damn Madison-Avenue, Hollywood, Disney, Murdoch, Mass
Mind-Fugg Puppet-Masters....
Amy is better than Katie Couric, but is still vulnerable to
her Manhattan Famous Jew-Girl self-aggrandizement and expected loyalty
to the ("Never Again!!") Professional Victim-Culture which controls
Mass Media....
CIA=Mossad=Brit Intelligence=the people who pulled 911= the above mentioned
Upper Levels of the Secret Societies....
.....Don't Go to the Conventions this summer...there will be a lot
of Victims...Act for Survival of your own, Survival of the Smartest...

Who benefits from 9/11? 02.Jun.2004 10:52

Frederick

Who has benefited most from 9/11? Israel has. With the U.S. in the Middle East (official Iraq pullout now slated for the end of 2005. We'll be involved in another fight by then. Betcha.) whipping up on Iraqi Muslims (who had nothing to do with 9/11, as we all know), Israel must be wetting itself with joy. Finally, America in the Middle East like they always wanted. The tail of lobbies wag the dogs of war once again. But this time we know it's a religious war, a a nasty, ancient, territorial religious war. How many times today have you seen the word 'Muslim' or 'Islamic' associated with the word 'terror'? Where's the moral outrage from our Jewish activist friends and lobbies here in America? Strangely silent... And the ACLU and ADL have very little to say about the constant referencing of people's religious affiliations when crimes are reported, when they're Muslim of course.

Debunking Bunkheads Swing into Action 02.Jun.2004 10:57

Jack Straw

Lovely, the debunking bunkheads swing into action;
StoneWT: too bad for you, the link you provide has nothing to do with the Pentagon. And Penny Schoner, Judge's right hand person in the SF Bay Area, has a web article which discusses Judge's "analysis" of the Pentagon, mentions his friend the flight attendant as having seen the tail on the lawn, also of seeing her friend's arm with a bracelet *in a photo*, and concluding this was genuine. Judge also asserts the plane hit the ground, and that the wings burst into fire and were demolished without a trace. Her account is at  http://www.911review.org
in the disinformation section.
Klaatu: you are a disgrace to your namesake, who sought to bring a bit of truth to this planet from beyond (quite a good performance by Michael Rennie). None of the questions i've raised have been answered, the facts against a hit by a 757 keep mounting, including that there is no way a 757 could have hit at ground level,while clearing 7 ft cable spools which were real close to the wall (10 ft or under), as the wings are 12 ft above the bottom of the engines, and thus would have hit at least 18ft up from the ground, well at second floor level. As for the debris inside, are you referring to the *rusty* landing gear? (plane parts would not be rusty) And what debris do we see outside? Zip. Where did the tail go? Did it really run away and hide?

Penny Schoner's "Witness" 02.Jun.2004 13:03

Jack Straw

Do a google search on Penny Schoner, select the second item, which will take you to her article on the Pentagon at ratical.org,Judge's website.
and look at her accounts of "witnesses". The flight attendant who "saw the tail on the lawn" is her first witness, and Schoner concludes that maybe the tail was hauled away, and the photos that have been shown were taken late that day or the next one, which is why no tail is visible. Only problem is,the early photos show the wall *before* it collapsed, so they must'be been taken within minutes of the crash. Unless you wanna believe that the wall was put back up in order to confuse everyone.

THE BIG BANG 02.Jun.2004 14:29

aracnoid

anyone with a logical mind knows there is something big here whether or not they are willing to face the implications of government complicity.
the arrogance of the elite power structure has been demonstrated throughout history, but the envelope may have been pushed too far this time.
the events of 9/11/01 and the unanswered questions they give rise to are far too important to future generations to allow any discussion to cease or become marginalized.
if this thing busts wide open, it will change the world!

Conspiratards persist in idiocy. 02.Jun.2004 16:40

StoneWT stonewt@aol.com

Jack,

My question: "Jack, could you fit more lies into a paragraph?"
was a rhetorical question. I didn't want you to provide more lies such as the one below.

"Nothing has ever been identified or claimed as belonging to AA77 at the Pentagon."

There is plenty of info available in the links posted for you to educate yourself out of idiocy. If you are serious, you will click on them. If you're a conspiratard, you will continue to ignore them.

"Which parts? Care to get specific? I thought so."

Go to the links.

Which is it? Are you serious or a conspiratard?

---------------------

klaatu,

"Saddama bin Ladein"

That's great. I hadn't read that before.

I realize that you will always have clowns with little knowledge on a topic (conspiratards) with a desire to sound as if they do.

----------------------

Alex Jones is a sensationalist. He does what he can to gain attention for himself. Some of his stuff is good, some isn't. Check him out the same as you would anyone else.


Wylie coyote theory of suspended animation 02.Jun.2004 16:48

klaatu

Straw,
Rusty? because it's discolored after a raging fire you say it is 'rusty'. Just what color would you expect it to be? Shiny steel with inspection decals still attached? But your right, plane parts would not be rusty! So someone had to paint rust on it hoping for someone like you to find it. Just what do you think that part is made out of, tin? sheesh.

Where did the tail go? I don't know, do you? There are a number of reports indicating tail wreckage was found and didn't they find the black box, which normally resides in the tail? Maybe the tail went the same place the tail went in the Phantom jet crash.
Possible or not? If not possible why?

Did that tail stop moving and "fall off' when the F4 hit the barrier? Is it possible that it just kept on going, disobeying the Wylie coyote theory of suspended animation and get shredded amongst the concrete pillars reinforced with braided rebar? In fact I could hardly visualize a more efficient plane shredding set up than the grid of columns that made up the Pentagon. Did you look at the video of the F4 crash, freeze a few frames. Did you see how it looked like it just went right into the concrete barrier like someone opened up a door and it didn't even begin to explode until it was at least halfway gone? Look familiar? Why is this so unbelievable.... or a better question-- Why is this just not possible, nay likely?

Jack I don't think everything is answered, There are still questions out there the spools for one, but the construction generator unit did have a large gash in it, and wait... the spools.... they are in disarray and look tossed around, not at all like most construction sites I have been to and one of them is very obviously bent.

As for your personal attacks.
-- my real name is not Klaatu.
-- Stating that I think it is a serious possibility that everyone was unconscious and the jet remotely flown in does not indicate that I am a mere debunker trying to cover for the government, it just means I don't think your rust and missing tail evidence is very good.

Engineering pdf file, with photos showing marks on the building (pg. 20) and lots of damage done from an impact with something rather big, not really consistent with an explosion as things are all bent the same direction ... slabs stripped, columns eroded and spalled. There is also damage where one would expect the tail to be, namely deformation, cracking and spalling.

About why there is no obvious cartoon like slot in the building where the 'tail' should have hit i really can't say but is it inconceivable that the thin rudder missed all the windows pg.(23)? The rest of the 'tail' btw is at the same level as the fuselage and would fit nicely into the hole.
 http://fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/build03/PDF/b03017.pdf

II will check out the Schoner link but maybe she is simply mistaken as to what she saw, witnesses do that, fairly often, photos and tapes can be faked too but the preponderance of evidence shows no missile.

I'm not commenting anymore on Flt. 77 unless I see something really really good. This has all been thrashed out on who knows how many boards. Anyway, on the larger issue of complicity I think we are likely in agreement. At this stage we can't know can we, we don't have the parts available for independent testing, we don't have the black boxes, we don't. The Government is hiding evidence, we know that. Flight 77... It is unsolvable for now but connect your dots with something better than rust and think about what you must believe to construct your idea from point A to point B does it all jell, are there big holes that have to be jumped over to maintain the idea? If nothing else this debate has illustrated just how important it is to think things thru.


---------------------------------------------

Frederick, I think your right.

Attention All Portland Indymedia Useless Eaters!! Aufmerksamkeit!!! 02.Jun.2004 19:02

The Realist (Captain Chaos)

Yes. I'm back. All you professional web link traders listen up.

How amazing.
Only a day after I posted my wonderful insight about the dreamers who post here, Mr. Kaminski published almost my same thoughts today. While he is howling at the moon, it's still pretty good.

(BTW: The way I found this little forum was by linkage from Rense, for that guy who asked)

Quote:

What? And Why?
By John Kaminski (Encourages widespread dissemination of his work)
 skylax@comcast.net
6-2-4

Ever wake yourself out of a sound sleep because you were screaming at yourself in a dream?

Personally, I've never done that before.

Yet, I just did exactly that.

WHAT DO YOU NEED TO TELL THEM? AND WHY DO THEY NEED TO KNOW?!

Over and over, I kept berating myself with this manic mantra, tossing and turning, sheets all tangled up in a sweaty knot. All those stories I'd written. This subject and that approach. This example and that phrase. Has it been a waste of time? Most people didn't believe what I was saying. They couldn't see the importance of it. It was like I was stumbling through a darkened town in the middle of the night shouting "FIRE!" and sleepy people rolled over in their beds and muttered "What the hell is he raving about?" before closing their eyes and going back to sleep. Only the town was America. The year 2004.

WHAT? And WHY?

My message was not getting through. People couldn't see the value of it, the purpose of it. Why would anyone need to know something like that? That their government had a master plan to kill millions, and had already killed tens of thousands.

A conspiracy theory, that's all it was, right?

What importance could this knowledge - that was so important to me! - possibly have for ordinary people just trying to live their lives, just trying to get by. If they kept their heads down and let the power brokers have their way, it would all blow over - right? And America would return to the Elysian vision of the past - right?

Yet my voice wouldn't let me sleep, and my wheezy snore turned into the very clear barking of a drill sergeant in my turbulent brain.

"This is very important, John. Wake up. They haven't understood what you've been trying to say. Thank clearly about this. Think about what would work. Think about what would really reach them."

On the film, the plane flies serenely, over and over, slams into the facade of the skyscraper, over and over we watch the video and try to deduce the truth from slow motion puffs of smoke. From how those towers fell on cue, as if somebody pulled a switch.

"YOU NEED TO TELL PEOPLE DIRECTLY. YOU NEED TO SPEAK TO THEM, FORCEFULLY, SURELY, TRULY. STUFF THE EXOTIC THEORIES. JUST MAKE YOUR POINT."

You know what a harbinger is? A harbinger is a clue that shows that something is going to happen soon, especially something bad. You know when that plane drove into that building? That was a harbinger of what's going to happen to your very own future!

"YOU NEED TO BE CLEAR ABOUT IT. MAKE THEM UNDERSTAND. MAKE THEM REALIZE THE DANGER THEY ARE IN."

I've said it over and over. The U.S. government planned, executed, and then covered up the 9/11 caper, covered it up with layers of clumsy lies and false leads, like pseudo hijackers with phony names and heartwrenching cellphone calls that couldn't have possibly been made. As Barb Honegger recently wrote on the Conspiracy Planet website, they covered it up by piggybacking the whole plot on a military exercise that was being conducted that very day, so that the air defenses would hesitate intercepting the hijacked airliners, so that the practice exercise could become real, and the rich oil pigs could get their way playing hog-in-trough with all the coins in the U.S. Treasury.

There were so many other reasons: Silverstein's insurance scam, the fact that the Twin Towers needed to be demolished anyway because of flawed construction techniques, the zillions to be made in shrewd investments guaranteed by the foreknowledge of destruction, and a sure way to defame Muslims permanently as an excuse to steal their oil.

But mostly it was to terminate American democracy, because as Zbigniew Brzezinski had warned us, no nation could be democratic at home and rapacious abroad. And America needs to be rapacious abroad to please its defense contractors, to satisfy the international bankers who control all our money. This was a good way to end democracy once and for all, and the deed has been done.

"TELL THEM CLEARLY WHAT REALLY HAPPENED."

The fat cats who run everything - how do you spell Rothschild? - determined that this would be the event to trigger permanent war, the social state that makes bankers the most money. And since there was no convenient enemy to nurture carefully until it was time to destroy him - like Hitler or Saddam - the natural thing would be to pin the blame on Muslims, and continue the racist crusades that have been going on for a thousand years.

Just like WTC1 and Oklahoma City (where, in the latter, shadowy Muslim puppets were waiting in the background to serve as patsies just in case the phony story about the Patriot wackos in rental truck fell apart - but thanks to corrupt courts, McVeigh was fried and very few smelled the real story that bombs inside the Murrah building meant our government did that job, too), 9/11 was devised in Washington, like all those other events, for the purpose of replacing the unpredictable chaos of liberty with the tightly regimented exploitation of sheer totalitarian profit maximization. That's what NAFTA, the Patriot Act, the FCC consolidation were all about. And 9/11. Mission accomplished. The permanent war is on.

Our whole system of living is based on a lie. The lie that we can pile up enough money so that we don't have to be honest and compassionate, that we can kill anybody we want and take whatever they have and make it our own. That is what the American way has become. And most of the rest of the world, sycophantic cowards all, timidly follows suit.

American prosperity is based on war. And we, the average citizens, get so little of it. Most of it goes to those who get the Bush tax breaks and no-bid contracts. You know how it goes with addictions: the more you have the more you want. So now with the American economy, the plan is to crash it, eliminate most of the population, and resell the real estate that will be taken by default. Great plan. Superior profit potential. For those who have the guns.

WHAT DO YOU NEED TO TELL THEM? AND WHY DO THEY NEED TO KNOW?!

9/11 was no attack by Islamic malcontents. It was a deliberately scripted terror event to turn America into a police state and simultaneously make billions of dollars for the richest people in the world, some of whom live in this country, many of whom live in Europe, Arabia and elsewhere. They were the same friends of the Bush family who stole all those treasures from the Iraqi museum. Many members of the Council on Foreign Relations know exactly what happened on 9/11, why it was done and how it was planned. Some of them are even on the official commission investigating the matter. Some of them also own the giant media conglomerates who ten minutes after the Twin Towers fell declared Osama bin Laden had done it.

The planes flew into the skyscrapers and people died because it served the profit purposes of the richest men in the country. This is what that FBI report into pre-9/11 investments found out and this is what the infamous Chicago Board of Options report stated. But both documents have been suppressed by the corrupt FBI, which says publicly there was nothing suspicious in the pre-9/11 stock trades.

We must demand that this evidence be released to the public. We must demand it. It will reveal some of the most well-known names in America as exactly the people behind the 9/11 caper. The most well-known names of all.

The FBI's lie about this report is of the magnitude that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction when it was invaded, but the American people don't seem to care if their government lies to them, even if it means the ritual sacrifice of their own children in Iraq, or their own countrymen in New York City.

9/11 was a lie, but the American people don't care, even when they realize that the same fate awaits them in our new police state future.

I am awake. JUST TELL THEM WHAT HAPPENED. I understand the facts, the context of American history and the machinations of the international bankers, that Bush is a moronic sociopath manipulated by rich people with big plans. Big evil plans. And they don't care who they kill. Including you.

I am awake, but the rest of the country continues to slumber. They just won't wake up. It is the sleep of fools.

And why do you need to know? WHY DO YOU NEED TO KNOW?

Because our soldiers have been taught to gun down innocent families for no reason. For no reason at all. For the lies their generals tell them. And because one of those doped-up, brain-dead, radiation-laden soldiers is really #####ed that he's been lied to, left in harm's way, and ordered to do things he wouldn't have done of his own accord in his worst nightmare.

It's not drug-induced dementia, it's policy, devised at the very top of the organizational chart of the U.S. government. That snake that eats its own tail. These soldiers you support and venerate, who have learned to kill women and children without a second thought.

Now his worst nightmare is about to become your worst nightmare. Because one of those sorry soldiers has a bullet with your name on it.

And like the plane that drove into that tall building, which you just can't believe was ordered by your own government, [b]you probably won't believe this story until you feel that bullet enter your body. And then you will believe it.[/b]

Stay tuned. It's likely to happen soon.

Sooner than you think.

=========================

Ahhh, I love the smell of nitrocellulose in the morning.

Rude Macedon Kaminsky 02.Jun.2004 21:04

klaatu

Realist, I don't think many here would disagree with JK.

Thanks for the comic relief, "StoneWT" 03.Jun.2004 01:10

GRINGO STARS

That radio liberty site is HILARIOUS! I like how they pretend that the UN isn't a figleaf for US power - such a hoot! They actually believe thatthe UN isn't essentially under US control - I laughed my ass off!

Keep up the good work - we all need a laugh now and then.

attempted post distraction? 05.Jun.2004 14:08

StoneWT stonewt@aol.com

Gringo,

As you spent the time and energy to investigate links at the bottom of a post, why not check out the 9-11 links posted in here exposing the 'no plane' hoax and incompetent researchers?


What is so democratic about Democracy Now? 05.Jun.2004 15:28

Somebody Somewhere

Ms. Goodman's attack on the Mr. Griffin was absolutely outrageous. Her apparent anger, was really inexplicable. Ms. Goodman, do you want to get to the truth or not, and if not, why not? Every one of America's misadventures since 911 has been due to the official lies about 911. By supporting those lies, or helping in promoting them, Ms. Goodman has done more to promote the official agenda than a lifetime of luke-warm progressive posturing will ever undue. Harking back to East Timor doesn't cut it. That is a typical phoney left political cul-de-sac. Such issues have no chance of widespread resonence here in the states, that's why such issues are promoted by the Goodman ilk here. One has to ask, what is Democratic about Democracy Now? There is no direct public participation in the program, no venue for feedback that is aired, no chance to question the content of Ms. Goodman's efforts, why not? And why does every show start with Ms. Goodman reading the day's headlines, apparently verbatim from mainstream sources, without comment or editorial, in effect lending credence and legitimacy to what is invariably slanted, agenda
ridden content? We might as well watch Fox news. Her opening headline reading sets the tone for rest of the show, hence insuring that her audience never veers far from the official version of events. There is now an army of radio hosts and journalists, especially on the internet, why make a point of questioning official mainstream content rather than robotically repeating such headlines, that's the only way to suss out the truth.

As regards Alex Jones, he is sincerely searching for the truth, and screaming it at the top of his lungs. The contrast between him and Ms. Goodman underlines the weaknesses which "journalists" like Goodman suffer from. At this point, one would have to be an idiot not to see the upsurdity of the official version of 911. The weight of evidence, taking into account, motive, opportunity, a mountain of circumstantial evidence, the laws of physics, points unambiqiously to the powers that be, right here at home. It most certainly doesn't point to A-rabs. For all of her anti-racist posturing throughout her career one would think that Ms. Goodman would be a bit more careful before she points the finger at A-rab culpability. The phoney left and the powers that be now seem to be testing the waters for placing the blame on the Saudis, and restricting U.S. culpbaility to incompetence. Hopefully, it won't wash. Whether Goodman is an incompetent idiot, or something more sinister remains to be seen, in any event, she doesn't deserve the privilaged venue that she has. It may be worth noting - Ms. Goodman gave considerable attention to the outing of Ms. Plaime. It struck me as odd that Goodman would take such a sympathetic view of Ms. Plaimes outing. I think many among us would prefer not having super duper secret agents running amuck among us, undermining our "Democracy" and doing whatever nonsence such people do. Is it possible that that case struck uncomfortably close to home for Ms. Goodman, perhaps due to some as yet unrevealed role, other than "progressive" radio host, that Ms. Goodman may be playing?

I already have, StoneWT 05.Jun.2004 21:34

GRINGO STARS

I have already checked out the links, and I am already convinced that there WAS a plane that crashed into the Pentagon, personally. I am not certain, but facts seem to point that way. Conspirators enjoy "muddying the waters" by inserting easily-debunked theories, thereby discrediting the work done by able researchers.

My position is also not static, changing with new information I come across. I personally believe that demolitions helped the 3 WTC towers fall. I am also suspicious that the Pentagon plane was not shot down, as the Pentagon has its own missile banks trained at the sky. I also harbor suspicion that the 4 planes were remote-controlled as well as hijacked. But I don't believe that the hijackers were the ones reported as hijackers in the corporate news, since several "hijackers" are alive and well, protesting reports of their death. It looks like an inside job, since the fighter jets of our able military (yeah right) were standing down during the morning of 911. Anyways, that's where I am at. My mind is open, but so far it seems certain that 911 was an inside job.

But you should DEFINITELY do more research about the UN and US's relationship, StoneWT. The US is anything BUT subservient to the UN. The UN is actually quite subservient to the UN, despite the body of law suggesting otherwise. Power structures rarely follow the letter of their own laws.

Hey Realist: for someone who claims that posting on IndyMedia is useless, you sure do post often (and long).

? 05.Jun.2004 22:49

StoneWT stonewt@aol.com

"But you should DEFINITELY do more research about the UN and US's relationship, StoneWT. The US is anything BUT subservient to the UN. The UN is actually quite subservient to the UN, despite the body of law suggesting otherwise. Power structures rarely follow the letter of their own laws."

Umm, what in the heck are you talking about?


I'm talking about... 07.Jun.2004 07:52

GRINGO STARS

...the crackheaded links found on the "radioliberty" site. You do follow them don't you, StoneWT?

having lost the topic, shills try to distract 07.Jun.2004 23:17

StoneWT stonewt@aol.com

Gringo,

What you are drooling about has absolutely nothing to do with this topic.

You may e-mail me if you wish.

However, stop wasting space in here on off-topic posts.


I Can't Wait To Pick Up Your Stuff For Pennies On The Dollar 08.Jun.2004 14:46

The Realist

Quote:
<<<Hey Realist: for someone who claims that posting on IndyMedia is useless, you sure do post often (and long).>>>
Unquote

You have, like most "Amurricans", no ability to FOCUS on what you see and hear. Sloppy thinking. TV addled hyperactive brains.

Here's how the game is played:
You keep directly addressing me personally, I keep answering - until you stop.
I enjoy annoying you.

I didn't say posting on Indymedia was useless.
I said your current situation in U.S.A. in 2004 is HOPELESS.
I said doing investigations thinking that you will ever "solve" 911 is an absurd waste of time.
Your dream of bringing the guilty parties to justice is naive beyond belief.
I said that the current situation for white folks in "America" is hopeless.
I said that if you bring down the current "regime" they will just give you two more sellouts to argue about. You know, just like sports teams.
If nothing else, the bloodlines KNOW HUMAN NATURE. How they are easily led/manipulated like children.
In fact, your pursuit of 911 factoids allows you to delude yourself that you are really doing something - when you are not.
I am here to burst your bubble.
All your work and effort is for naught.
The whole system is rotten to the core, and ther's no way to fix it - at least not without extreme violence. But the violence your sons participate in so freely abroad, is unthinkable here. America will embrace the SS and the Gestapo, welcome it in fact.
We, the U.S., are the bad guys, the new barbarians, the Huns invading from the North.
We are Hedonistic animals.
We are too stupid to live.
See, once again I tell you what you dont want to hear.
Makes you angry.
Makes you want to lash out at me.
Your whole existence is a fantasy built on lies and myth.
America does not exist, and you have no Constitution.
Like the woman that owned that SF art gallery who posted aa artists drawn (honest) recreation of the torture of Iraqi's.
First someone emptied garbage cans in front of her unit. Then someone threw dozens of eggs afterward.
The someone came into the gallery and spit in her face. Finally someone came to her door early in the morning and when she answered the knock, he sucker punched her in the face and eye, breaking her nose and knocking her out.
Animals. A nation of sub human animals.

Never in the 225 year history of this corporation has there been a conspiracy solved.
Do you think Booth killed Lincoln with a .41 derringer shot right behind the ear?
You ever shoot a .41 derringer?
How about Muhammed Ali?
You think he is "punchy" from too many hits?
Here's a guy that understood how the world works. He refused induction into the Army on moral grounds, even though he would have had lived like a king TDY as a boxer, and had no chance of getting in harms way. He could have won any office he desired including President - even white folks would have voted for him. So a little something in his food or drink, or a vaccination when he traveled overseas, and then - the shaking palsey (like that Fox kid) - Parkinson's disease. Problem solved.
Fifty ways to kill your lover. (Paul Simon)

When they ask you folks readin this if you want a $2 hr job in India, or Bejing - will you go? Even to feed your children? Oh, I forgot, you dont have any. Will you learn Spanish to get employment here? How will you like it when soccer is america's #1 sport? When you twist the radio dial and there's only a few English stations? When they open up a Mosque right down the street from you?

If you knew what the bloodlines have lined up for you, your face would turn white and you would fall backwards in a dead faint.

Is the collapse/depression finally here?? God I hope so - the wait is killing me.

 http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_04/ekervik060704.html

Gee, Another Guy Gets It Too 09.Jun.2004 23:48

The Realist

 http://www.federalobserver.com/archive.php?aid=7849

Hmmmmm. I wonder - what is more important - this or 911?????

(a little snip)
If the Bankers are coordinating the financial destruction of the US, it follows that a time will one day arrive when they are suddenly given a secret signal to coordinate a "take down" of the U.S., after debt loads and dollar weakness is established. That time has arrived.

Evidence Indicates The USA's Plug Has Been Recently Been Pulled Suddenly, in only the last two weeks, the warnings are flooding out of high finance like a burst dam. The message is clear for those who have ears to hear, for these warnings are all from the same inner circle: it can only mean someone has given the order to release the hordes of hell and go in for the kill. Some of these items listed below are reactions from the elite to save themselves and warn their friends. Other items are legal and political actions to remove any hindrance or safeguard which heretofore inhibited a sudden and massive implosion. Keeping in mind that this overwhelming avalanche of dire events occurred over mere days, here is the list:

Russia announces anti-dollar war. Last week Russia announced it is now anti-dollar, Russia & socialist partner Germany discussed switching out of dollars and into euros for financing and, more importantly, conduct their huge oil transactions in euros, not dollars. No less than Duisenberg, head of the socialist European Central Bank (partner of the anti-American Federal Reserve) agreed, as did Communist Russia's partner, German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, in a recent meeting. [1]

Japan is unloading massive amounts of dollars, stocks, and US gov debt, as mentioned recently on this site's "Just The Facts" section. [2]

Elitist Belkin: prepare for sickening plunge. As the elite analyst Belkin (newsletter costs $35,000 per year) stated over the last 2 weeks, (quotes are in Just The Facts), even private American banks are bailing out of US government debt[3], while Skull-n-Bones Trillionaire Bush explodes US debt into the outer reaches of never-never land, which means the US must find 300% more buyers to finance its failing socialist economy than just 2 years ago, (not including burgeoning state and local debt). This simply isn't possible. Belkin says "it's time to prepare for a sickening plunge into December and beyond." Bush is deliberately bankrupting the US for The Bank, while Americans wave their masonic little flags. We have a new champion in the long history of astonishingly dumb nations: the Americans under Bush and Clinton are clearly number one, replacing the Germans under Hitler (the Germans were never shown how a free-market economy works, and their history is one of dictatorial kings, and ice-cold and corrupt bishops. What are Americans' excuses?)

I gotcha Realist, kind of like a hyperactive child... 10.Jun.2004 17:27

GRINGO STARS

The Realist says:

<<You keep directly addressing me personally, I keep answering - until you stop.
I enjoy annoying you.>>

Keep trying Realist! - you may annoy me yet!

Freud called it "projecting." The habit of attributing to others your own desires, habits, thoughts, etc. Look into the mirror. You ego is showing (it's pink and bloated).

StoneWT, stay focused! WHATEVER YOU DO - DON'T TAKE YOUR EYE OFF THE "TOPIC AT HAND" - if you do, SOMETHING HORRIBLE MIGHT HAPPEN!

My insidious plan to confuse you is working <maniacal laughter> - my Rockefeller masters shall be so pleased <rubbing hands together conspiratorially> - and now, I shall distract more tireless online crusaders!...

Meet Your Masters 10.Jun.2004 22:19

The Realist

Rothschild family
Rothschild family in the news
 http://www.worldhistory.com/wiki/R/Rothschild-family.htm

Rothschild Coat of Arms

The Rothschild family is a successful banking and finance dynasty of German Jewish origin that established operations across Europe, and was ennobled by the Austro-Hungarian and British governments.

Their success began with Mayer Amschel Rothschild (1744-1812). Born in the ghetto of Frankfurt-am-Main he developed a finance house and spread his empire by installing each of his five sons in European cities to conduct business. An essential part of Mayer Rothschild's strategy for future success was to keep control of their businesses in family hands, allowing them to maintain complete discretion about the size of their wealth and their business achievements. Mayer Rothschild successfully kept the fortune in the family by carefully arranged marriages between closely related family members. His sons were:

* Amschel (1773-1855) - Frankfurt, Germany
* Salomon (1774-1855) - Vienna, Austria
* Nathan (1777-1836) - London, England
* Calmann (Carl) (1788-1855) - Naples, Italy
* James (1792-1868) - Paris, France

In 1816, four of the brothers were each created baron or Freiherr by Austria's Francis I, formerly Francis II the last Holy Roman Emperor. Nathan was elevated in 1818. As such, some members of the family used "de" or "von" Rothschild to acknowledge the grant of nobility. In 1885, Nathan Mayer Rothschild II (1840-1915) of the London branch of the family, was granted the peerage title Baron Rothschild in the Peerage of the United Kingdom.

Rothschild family banking businesses pioneered international high finance during the industrialisation of Europe and were instrumental in supporting railway systems across the world and in complex government finance for projects such as the Suez Canal. Amassing huge fortunes, the name Rothschild became synonymous with banking and great wealth, and the family was renowned for its art collecting, as well as for its philanthropy. Since 1916, members of the family have been vacationing at Megève, an exclusive ski resort in the Haute Savoie departement of France, whose restaurants are among the best in the country. However, even in recreation the Rothschilds find a way to utilize their entrepreneurial skills and own five of the village's gourmet restaurants.

The Rothschilds were supporters of the State of Israel, and Baron Edmond James de Rothschild was a patron of the first Zionist settlement in Palestine at Rishon-LeZion. In 1917 Lionel Walter Rothschild, 2nd Baron Rothschild was the addressee of the Balfour Declaration, which committed the British government to the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people. As prominent Jews active in politics as well as business, the Rothschild family has been a target for anti-semitism throughout its history. One family member was executed by the Nazis and many others were persecuted during World War II.

There are two branches of the family connected to France. The first was son Jacob James Mayer Rothschild (1792-1868), known as "James", who established Banque Rothschild & Cie in Paris. Following the Napoleonic Wars, he played a major role in financing the construction of railroads and the mining business that helped make France an industrial power. Ensuing generations of the Paris Rothschild family remained involved in the family business, becoming a major force in international investment banking. The onslaught of competition from publicly traded banking giants from the United States and the European Union, who came with enormous capital at their disposal, resulted in the 2003 merger of the privately owned Rothschild banking house in France with its British banking cousins to create a single umbrella holding company.

The second French branch was founded by Nathaniel Rothschild (1812-1870). Born in London, England he was the fourth child of the founder of the British branch of the family, Nathan Mayer Rothschild (1777-1836). In 1850, Nathaniel Rothschild moved to Paris, ostensibly to work with his uncle, Jacob James Mayer Rothschild. However, in 1853 Nathaniel acquired Château Brane Mouton, a vineyard in Pauillac in the Gironde département. Nathaniel Rothschild renamed the estate, Château Mouton Rothschild and it would become one of the best known labels in the world.

In Vienna, Austria a Rothschild established a bank and the family were admired and respected citizens. Nevertheless, ensuing generations living there during World War II had to surrender their bank to the Nazis and flee the country. Some of these family members sought sanctuary in the United States.

Over the course of almost 250 years of Rothschild family prominence, a great many members distinguised themselves in both business, philantrophy, public service, and as patrons of the arts. Like any family, they would suffer their share of scandals but the Rothschilds remain today as one of the great and enduring non-royal dynasties in all of history.

Due to their prominence, members of the Rothschild family figure in some Conspiracy theories.

Shimon Peres, former Prime Minister of Israel, has been quoted as saying about the Rothschilds that "Never has a family donated so much of its wealth to the making of history."

Some of the prominent descendants of Mayer Amschel Rothschild:

* Amschel Mayer James Rothschild (1955-1996)
* Edmond James de Rothschild (1845-1934)
* Elie de Rothschild (born 1917)
* Henri de Rothschild (1872-1946)
* Henriette ("Jette") Rothschild (1791-1866) married Sir Moses Montefiore (1784-1885)
* Lionel Nathan Rothschild (1808-1879)
* Lionel Walter Rothschild, 2nd Baron Rothschild of the United Kingdom (1868-1937)
* Mayer Alphonse James Rothschild (1827-1905)
* Nathaniel Rothschild (1812-1870)
* Nathan Mayer Rothschild, 1st Baron Rothschild of the United Kingdom (1840-1915)
* Nathaniel Charles Jacob Rothschild, 4th Baron Rothschild of the United Kingdom (born 1936)
* Nathaniel Mayer Victor Rothschild, 3rd Baron Rothschild of the United Kingdom (1910-1990)
* Philippe de Rothschild (1902-88)
* Philippine Rothschild (born 1935)
* Raphael Benjamin Jacob von Rothschild (1976-2000)

* Whether Abraham Rothschild (1853-ukn) was is debated.

Further reading

* Frederic Morton: The Rothschilds: Portrait of a Dynasty ( ISBN 156836220X )

Meet Your Masters (PTII) 10.Jun.2004 22:21

The Realist

Waterloo!
 http://www.321gold.com/editorials/chuhran/chuhran042604.html
David Chuhran
April 26, 2004
(Posted under fair use - discussion only)

Politicians are fleas! They're just an annoyance. At least that's the way it is to the World's bankers. I used to be politically passionate with many deep rooted convictions about freedom, liberty, democracy, and the rights and wrongs regarding the interpretations of the US Constitution. As a matter of fact, I was so passionate I spent seven and a half years in the military willing to make the ultimate sacrifice in defense of our flag. Don't get me wrong, I still believe, because the framers' intentions were clear. They were escaping tyranny, not attempting to create it.

Unfortunately, even good intentions need to be financed and the graveyards are full of penniless, well intentioned men. Money rules the World. If you have the power to control the money supply, you control the World. That's just reality. Many passionate, elected politicians, who've stood for this or that, must have had a rude awakening when they were told how things really work. Sure, they're allowed to keep a pet project or two, because nobody really wants to starve school kids or leave anybody behind. Regardless of political persuasions, they all succumb to the powers that be in lieu of standing on their cherished principles. Once initiated, the options become clear, either expose the ruse and commit suicide while potentially collapsing the economy and harming your constituents, or play the bankers' game by the bankers' rules and accept the few bones thrown your way while affecting the outcome the best way you can. The politicians are the puppets not the puppet masters.

It's all about fear and greed. That's nothing new and we all know those are the forces that control the market place. What most don't know is that much of that fear and greed is controlled and manipulated. Greed can be profitable, especially if you have the power to move the markets, but front-running fear is the ultimate profit maker. If fear does not naturally and predictably occur, well then the bankers just manufacture it.

From the must read book by G. Edward Griffin, The Creature from Jekyll Island:

"The rise of the House of Rothschild in Europe; the tradition among financiers of profiting from both sides of armed conflict; the formula by which war is converted into debt and debt converted back into war." [pg.217]

Once one absorbs the true meaning of that statement, many of the last century's armed conflicts take on a new clarity. Often times war may be necessary, but every time war is profitable for those financing the war machines. Griffin affirms this by saying, "...the tendency of those who reap those profits to manipulate governments into military conflicts, not for national or patriotic reasons, but for private gain." [pg.217]

Manufacturing war is a horrific notion. What truly evil forces would place personal gain above and beyond all else? And, what political puppetry would allow the ordering of human sacrifice in the name of profits? Here's the answer. The most damning testimony of this arrogant atrocity perpetrated on the World comes from the father of the Rothschild Dynasty, Mayer Amschel Rothschild when he boldly states:

"Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws." [pg.218]

These bankers "care not who writes the laws." Not only that, they don't care about the laws themselves. They are loyal to no flag, no country, no constitution, and no people.

They are loyal only to profit!

"The Rothschilds often financed both sides in a conflict and were known to have great political influence, the mere sight of the red shield on a leather pouch, a carriage, or a ship's flag was sufficient to insure that the messenger or his cargo could pass through check points in either direction." [pg.220]

They didn't care who won. They didn't care about right or wrong. They didn't care about the dead or human suffering. They only cared about profit. Playing both sides ensured a continued profit stream once the conflict reached a resolution. The longer the conflict continued, the more profit to be made. In addition, the Rothschilds front ran the conflict's outcome. Most notably was Napoleon's defeat at Waterloo where Rothschild's messenger beat Wellington's courier to London by 20 hours. This news-ahead-of-the-news allowed Rothschild's agent the opportunity to bait-and-switch the bond market by beginning a panic selling spree as if Wellington lost. Once the bond market collapsed, the agent reversed course and bought up the entire debt. [pg. 227]

G. Edward Griffin's conclusions based on his study of more than two centuries of the Rothschild's involvement in armed conflict brings the "Rothschild Formula" into sharp focus.

1. War is the ultimate discipline to any government. If it can successfully meet the challenge of war, it will survive. If it cannot, it will perish. All else is secondary. The sanctity of its laws, the prosperity of its citizens, and the solvency of its treasury will be quickly sacrificed by any government in its primal act of self-survival. 2. All that is necessary, therefore, to insure that a government will maintain or expand its debt is to involve it in war or the threat of war. The greater the threat and the more destructive the war, the greater the need for debt.

3. To involve a country in war or the threat of war, it will be necessary for it to have enemies with credible military might. If such enemies already exist, all the better. If they exist but lack military strength, it will be necessary to provide them money to build their war machine. If an enemy does not exist at all, then it will be necessary to create one by financing the rise of a hostile regime.

4. The ultimate obstacle is a government which declines to finance wars through debt. Although this seldom happens, when it does it will be necessary to encourage internal political opposition, insurrection, or revolution to replace that government with one that is more compliant to our will. The assassination of heads of state could play an important role in this process.

5. No nation can be allowed to remain militarily stronger than its adversaries, for that could lead to peace and a reduction of debt. To accomplish this balance of power, it may be necessary to finance both sides of the conflict. Unless one of the combatants is hostile to our interests and, therefore, must be destroyed, neither side should be allowed a decisive victory or defeat. While we must always proclaim the virtues of peace, the unspoken objective is perpetual war. [pg. 230]

Amazingly, this was published in July 1994. What a disappointment the end of the Cold War and the first Gulf War must have been. Since then, the Euro has come into being. With England in the EU, did you ever wonder why the British Pound still exists? Did you know Saddam was selling, or about to sell, Oil in Euros? What do you think would happen to the US Dollar if the Euro was allowed to become even a co-equal medium of exchange for the World's most traded commodity---Oil? Why do you think France and Germany opposed the Iraq invasion while the UK supported it? Who is profiting from the US war on terror? Will this war ever end...or will it spread? Will the borrowing ever end?

You see, this is exactly the type of setup the Rothschilds want - "perpetual war" - and now they have it. At first, I thought the war was necessary, and it may very well have been, but was this a manufactured war? Only time will tell.

Finally, much speculation and confusion has erupted over the Rothschild's announcement that it's quitting as the Chair of the twice-daily London Gold Fix. The Rothschild Dynasty was built on a golden foundation and they've been at the center of Gold since the middle of the 18th Century, so why did they decide to quit now at the beginning of a secular bull market in Gold?

Why?

True to form, have they been playing both sides of the Gold/Fiat Currency Wars for most of the last two centuries? Were they long Gold at times while also helping the suppressionists short, swap, and lease Gold while facilitating the derivative carry trade to allow the ascendancy of the fiat money regimes? Is all the Gold gone from the World's central banks? Do they see trouble on the horizon for the short interest? And, if so, how could they quickly abandon those interests while dropping their "unbiased" position as Chair of the Fix so they can fully participate in the profits looming on the long side of Gold?

I'll tell you how, just quit!

You bait-and-switch the Gold market and then gobble up all the cheap Gold before the bewildered shorts feel the squeeze just like they did with England's bonds after...

...Waterloo!

Eustace Mullins - A REAL Conspiracy Researcher (Now 81) 10.Jun.2004 22:25

The Realist

This guy REALLY got it, mon.

E: Call or write anytime.

Eustace Mullins
126 Madison Place
Staunton, Va. 24401
540-886-5580

[b]Americans love their captivity. There's no responsibility. When you're a captive, you don't have to make a decision about anything, though you have no Liberty. People don't want Liberty. Liberty is nothing but uncertainty. It's much easier to have someone tell you where you'll be, what you'll do and who you'll pay tomorrow than to worry about it yourself. The same goes for what you think.[/b]

Ahhhhhh, truer words have never been spoken.


Hysterical Elite go for final push. 12.Jun.2004 22:01

klaatu

Yes it's time to get beyond the War, 9-11, the missile, The idiot in the White House etc. All most important to investigate and draw conclusions about .... to be able to get to perhaps another point in the meme, the collective consciousness that will be needed to survive. Hmmmm
For your consideration.
Hysterical Elite go for final push.

Other audio files ----->>

 http://www.jackblood.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/di10132003d.mp3

My Epiphany 13.Jun.2004 04:26

The Realist

First lets get this WTC stuff out of the way real quick.
The base steel beams that supported WTC 1 and WTC 2 (built by David and Nelson Roggenfelder) extended 6 floors underground. Some were rectangular 2" wall thickness, some 4" thick. The steel was of such high grade that it could only be manufactured in Japan, no one in the U.S. had capability for such huge configurations.
When bolted together they weighed upwards of 22 tons.
Now I want you to get this PDF file made, not by me, but the main contractor for removing the debris at ground zero...the Liro Company.

 http://www.liro.com/lironews.pdf

Quote:
Red Hot Debris. The removal of debris from the collapsed areas requires the safe lifting and maneuvering of
very heavy steel beams, often twisted and tangled from the force of the collapse. Some beams pulled from the
wreckage are still red hot more than 7 weeks after the attack, and it is suspected that temperatures beneath the
debris pile are well in excess of 1,000°F. One group of beams fell end-first, embedding themselves deeply into
the subway system below. The removal of these beams
- one of which struck an electrical equipment room - is
a delicate operation requiring close coordination with
New York City Transit . Although the 1/9 station
below the Trade Center is heavily damaged, 1,200ft. are
intact. LiRo is working with New York City Transit to
shore up the station so that there will be no further
damage.
Unquote

Look very carefully at the beams in the picture - molten red hot.
Note the date Oct 21 - 40 days after 9/11/01
Note also they said that they were still that way 7 weeks after impact (49 days)
There is nothing that could happen on the 79th floor with aviation fuel (kerosene) that could keep high grade structural steel glowing red hot 6 floors under ground zero (oxygen poor) for seven weeks.
Not even a ton of thermite can do that.
There can only be one explanation for that, only one thing that could generate that much heat.
At first I thought it may have been control rods, but the two spike graph ruled that out.
What it was I dont know, but I know it involved fission or fusion.

Now look at this page which I had to go to the archives for:

(Quote)
A one-inch thick column has been reduced to half-inch thickness. Its edges--which are curled like a paper scroll--have been thinned to almost razor sharpness. Gaping holes--some larger than a silver dollar--let light shine through a formerly solid steel flange. This Swiss cheese appearance shocked all of the fire-wise professors, who expected to see distortion and bending--but not holes.
(Unquote)

 link to web.archive.org

Swiss cheeze beams heh??
Those 2 elegant beautiful proud majestic buildings did all they could to save their precious occupants.
But they didn't stand a chance. Satanic forces were at work.

They had to get that steel out of there. Some fool might have brought in the right kind of geiger counter.

But once again, if I mention any of this to my friends, I will be laughed out of the room.
The human race, but most especially Amurricans, simply cannot bring themselves to believe THEIR gov't is capable of such action. Their mind is surrounded by an impenetrable brick wall. They will never escape the Matrix. They will never see the wizard behind the curtain.

If you do get it, you are on your own. Totally completely alone. And you better act accordingly.
Besides, why risk anything for a bunch of fools? I am not a pessimist, or a nihilist. I am The Realist.

Just like religion - you will never convince a true believer that its all a bunch of mumbo jumbo. When a painting "weeps" somewhere, thousands flock there from around the world. They WANT to believe. And they will.

Klaatu borada nikto????
I dont know what the words are, but I say "go for it, Gort!!"

 link to web.archive.org

There Is No Light At The End Of The Tunnel 13.Jun.2004 08:58

The Realist

The problem with conspiracy research is that it implies that one is just one fact, one revelation, one undiscovered nuance away from solving the puzzle. O.K. Let's say one gets the WTC thing 100% correct from start to finish (an impossibility). You got it all figured out.

What court system will you take it to??? Their court system.
What media will you bring it to for full exposure?? Their media system.
If you do get through via some miracle, they will kill you, and possibly your whole family too. (Paul Wellstone)
If they don't kill you, they will put you in their jail system, and you will wish you WERE dead.
They will put a bounty on your head, and your next door neighbor, or perhaps your own brother will turn you in. After all, patriotism is thicker than blood right? Your ex girlfriend will drop a dime on you just for spite, for free, no reward.
There are no John Waynes in real life.
There are no Perry Masons.
You mess with the system, the system will crush you.
The American Revolution back in the 1700's would be impossible with today's tech in THEIR hands.
You might argue that a crappy little country like Iraq is putting the US military to shame.
But in fact, they are just toying with them.
They could, you know, just kill them all from the air.
All 26,000,000 of them. Easy as pie.
During Vietnam, the arclight bombing forced the enemy to live like gophers. But they have much much better tech now.

What I have noticed is that it is the JOURNEY, the seekage, the daily back and forth is what keeps the conspiracy folks going.
If you take away gigantic gov't conspiracy, they have no reason to get up in the morning. It verifies their very existence.
Luckily, there will always be yet another conspiracy, so their self employment is assured.
But do not delude oneself.
The American people as a whole, are NOT on your side.
They see you as the tin foil hat crowd.
And always will.
In a culture of blind people, the one who can see is loathed.

Take heart, 100 years from now, you will never notice the difference.

 http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/rhodes-will.html

 http://home1.gte.net/res0k62m/home.htm

sound file, link 13.Jun.2004 19:29

klaatu

I knew we had something in common.... approaching from different ends I suppose.

barada niktoo --->>  http://www.porkepyn.com/sounds/Gort1.wav


Nice link, it'll take me awhile to get thru it.
Here's one for you.--->>  https://www.mega.nu/ampp/

Preaching To The Already Converted 13.Jun.2004 22:11

The Realist

So, we are here at the end of a very long and stale thread.
At the most, ten people have ventured this far.
Out of the ten, perhaps 2 looked at the links.
None actually read them.
As I write this, Tom Brokaw is speaking to 5.4 million Americans, giving out "their" view of the world.
Everything he talks about is logical, rational, reassuring and makes sense.
And total B.S.

We are left with the futility of malcontents trading links with each other.
Sitting on the toilet is more productive.

For every link you give, I can give 100.
But none of the 5 people interviewed on Leno's "Jaywalking" could name Cheny from his picture.


 http://www.ourcivilisation.com/signs/chap7.htm

(clip)
Machines Offer Huge Potential
Artificial intelligence offers huge opportunities to the human race which include:

* Freedom from daily toil by supplanting human industry with automation; and Australia is uniquely placed to take immediate advantage. The small population coupled with its high standard of technology and political stability would allow the rapid automation of its public service. By giving the ability to every citizen to access government computer resources direct, we could
o Retrench nearly every public servant
o Dispense with nearly every building left vacant by this retrenchment
o Save the huge annual cost of the recruitment, training, supply a management of this no longer necessary army of clerks.
o Save the huge amount of annual resources, paper clips, paper, lighting, heating, desks etc no longer consumed by our existing public service.
o Get the fastest, cheapest , most efficient administration ever.
* A Life Of Ease for all citizens to live free from the need to labour at a job because they would receive a government pension, so life could be all leisure.
* Tertiary Education For All blessed with unlimited leisure citizens could become educated to the level they chose.
* Extended Research the massive amount of free time would allow a huge extension into research
* The Conquest Of Space the freeing of so much resources would allow them to be channelled in to space exploration or whatever grips the public imagination.

Actual Impact Of Artificial Intelligence (1990s)
But the reality is very different, we are not being enriched by clever machines, but reduced to penury. Because the money supply is traditionally connected to the number of people employed, as employment shrinks, so does the money in circulation. Instead of rectifying this problem by issuing all citizens displaced from the work force with a regular ration of money - the dole - the community does the opposite. Except in those particular (increasingly rare) circumstances that qualify the unemployed for dole, any citizen without a job is refused an income and is no longer able to spend. That means the unemployed have no money to be a customer, they can no longer give their money to others who, in turn, would give this money to others, etc, so the whole community loses the money the unemployed do not earn.

Money For Nothing
Offering to pay people not to work invariable generates outrage in many citizens. It is clearly rewarding the lazy, as well as creating money from nowhere. Both these points are true, but they do not matter. It is unfortunate that the hard working are just as unnecessary as those who are idle by nature, but this is a result of technology. And since the adoption of the use of paper money and credit notes, money is generated by the stroke of a pen. Which means there is no limit to the amount of money available to a community, so no community should suffer through lack of money, for as Sir Josiah Stamp (former president of The Bank Of England) said:

"The modern banking system manufactures money out of nothing. The process is perhaps the most astounding piece of sleight-of-hand that was ever invented."

Money Is The Blood Of A Community
The purpose of money is to allow the distribution of goods throughout the community. It does not benefit the farmer to have tons of turnips, or the mine owner to have tons of coal, or the garage owner to have gallons of petrol, if no one can buy these goods. All manufacturers need customers with money, which is why money was invented. The sole and only purpose of money is to distribute goods. It performs a function for the community similar to that performed by blood to a living body. If blood is cut off to a part of the anatomy, that part withers and dies, and the whole body suffers accordingly. Whereas the more extensive the circulation of blood, the healthier the individual. Similarly with money and the community; the more extensive the supply of incomes, the healthier the community, and vice-versa. The whole community is rewarded when someone who would otherwise have no income is given a wage. People do not eat money, but they pass it on to others by becoming their customers. And these recipients in turn use the extra money to supply extra custom to others. And so on.

How A Community Circulates Its Money Is Critical
Most communal poverty is caused not by a failure of production but by a failure in the circulation of money. The 'Great Depression' occurred not because our community had run short of something tangible such as food, or oil, but because the circulation of money failed. The community was just as rich before the depression as during the depression, but it relied upon mass employment for the circulation of money. The moment employment faltered then the money supply reduced which forced more unemployment etc. The simple truth is that a source of money must be given to the unemployed, then recovered by tax to maintain the necessary circulation of money. Otherwise we all starve.
(clip)

----------------------------
And what about the transhuman era........
It is just so intensely crystal clear to me, the human race will not be necessary to provide a luxurious lifestyle for the bloodlines anymore. And soon.

 http://www.cs.usu.edu/%7Edegaris/artilectwar.html

And the nanotech era - no more factories......
 http://plausible.custompublish.com

The court of public opinion, & hardly all judges are corrupt and pro-Bush 14.Jun.2004 17:01

publicus

"What court system will you take it to???"

The court of public opinion. Remember the run up to the Iraq attack by a bastardized NAZI clique in charge of the 'USA' showed, that there was a global phenomenon of solidarity against Bush. Huge portions (when accurately polled) of many countries believe that Bush is totally guilty of perpetrating 9-11. Search this website for German and Canadian poll results to see for yourself.

Besides as some judges have shown, they are hardly going to be pushed over by a Bushes of crooks and criminals incorporated (BCCI).

now what? 14.Jun.2004 21:51

klaatu

Well Realist. Now what? Unintended consequences?

As what is now an aside, a Rense link about Goodman --->>  http://www.rense.com/general53/ananasi.htm

Yet Another Naieve Posting 14.Jun.2004 21:52

The Realist

See, this is how people think.
This is what I see and hear everywhere.
I may as well not to have posted anything.
There is no way to pull pavlovian trained minds from the Matrix.
"We're real close to turning this thing around"
"The peoples mood is shifting"
"The courts will fix things, I'm seeing it happen"
"Things are gonna be different"
"Those rascals are finished"

Your masters dont care about public opinion.
If they perceive things really shifting, they will shift with you.
They adapt to make it appear you have a say in things.
In Australia, a few weeks before sending troops to Iraq, the opinion polls were 90% against.
The week they were sent, the pollls were 96% against. Their polls.
Think about that.
And Howard sent them anyway.

This is the thing I keep harping on, over and over, that the average person on the street absolutely refuses to acknowledge.
You have nothing to say about anything in your life.
They will do whatever they want to do.
Certainly, there will be speedbumps in their map, which is to be expected when dealing with 6.2 billion people.
But they plan for centuries, while you only plan for days and weeks.
You are a peon. And a peon is someone you pee on.
If you are gonna be raped, sit back and enjoy it.
I bring you the message of unrelenting hopelessness.
The poster above said to me "why dont you do the world a favor and kill yourself?"
The reality is so unpleasant, it cant be contemplated.
I've said this a dozen ways here already.
Yet you still keep coming back to confront me, again and again.
I challenge your entire staus as a "free willed" entity.
And you cant stand it.
If someone comes along to muck things up (like ruining Nixon's vote tally), he'll get the same thing George Wallace got: five .38 caliber slugs in the belly. And Arthur Bremer passed the q-tip no gunpowder parafin residue test at the police station.
You are dealing with the most vicious people who have ever took a breath planet Earth.
One more "incident" and the iron curtain falls.
When it happens, you will walk around in a daze, stupified, with a woozy disbelieving feeling permeating your being.
When it does transpire, look down the street, and you'll see a guy jumping up and down laughing like a hyena.
That'll be me.


HITLER THE JEW?
 http://www.brain-mind.com/Hitler1.html

During his tumultuous rise to the pinnacles of power Adolf Hitler was often accused of being Jewish. Even the leaders of the National Party which he sought to lead, ridiculed Hitler as a "Jew" and for "behaving like a Jew" as did many of his enemies.

In 1933, it was reported in a London newspaper that a gravestone was found in a Jewish cemetary in Bucharest, inscribed with Hebrew characters that spelled out: Adolf Hitler. Adolf Hitler was a Jewish name... but this "Adolf Hitler" had been born in 1832, fifty years before the birth of the future dictator of Germany.

Before coming to power, Adolf Hitler was also a target of widespread ridicule, and was mocked by enemies and the press who questioned his ancestry and who laughably referred to him as "Adolf Schickelgruber." "Schickelgruber" had been the name of Adolf's maternal grandmother, and for 39 years, the name of his father, Alois.

Although the "Schickelgruber" moniker rankled the rising dictator, what concerned him and what he feared most was the history behind the name: the discovery that he was part "Jew;" a fear he repeatedly voiced long after coming to power.

"People must not know who I am," he ranted, and then ranted again when informed that his family history was being investigated. "They must not know where I came from."

Long before and well after Hitler became Chancellor of Germany, considerable effort was expended to falsify, erase or destroy the records from his past. Repeated investigations were conducted by the Gestapo who repeatedly visited his ancestral village in Austria, questioning and threatening anyone that had been associated with the Hitler family.

Hitler was so concerned that when he annexed Austria, in 1938, he ordered that his family's ancestral village, Dollersheim, and all neighboring villages be destroyed. His armies marched in and then cleared out and forcibly evacuated the villagers who were dispersed far and wide. And then Hitler in fact, made it disappear, erased it from the face of the Earth. His armies bombed Dollersheim and all neighboring villages into oblivion as part of a training exercise. Even his father's and grandmother's graves were obliterated and no trace remains.

Nevertheless, what has survived the ravages of time, purposeful destruction and clever forgery, is the fact that Adolf's father, Alois Schickelgruber was the illegitimate son of a female servant, Maria Anna Schickelgruber. Maria Anna became pregnant while living as a servant in a Jewish household --a common servant girl fate. It was assumed by family members and villagers alike that she'd been impregnated by the head of the house, Baron Rothschild (Langer, 1973; Payne, 1973); a rumor that the Austrian Secret police claimed to have confirmed when ordered by Austrian Chancellor Dollfuss to conduct a thorough investigation. Later, when Hitler orchestrated the anschluss of Austria and German trooped marched in, he had Dollfuss murdered, and in addition to destroying Dollersheim, ordered that all documents related to that investigation be destroyed.

Yet others claimed that the man who had impregnated Adolf's grandmother was the Jewish scion of the seigneurial house of Ottenstein.

Hitler's own nephew, William Patrick Hitler, and Adolf's personnel attorney, Hans Frank, claimed that his grandfather was a wealthy "Granz Jew" by the name of Frankenberger who in turn "paid a maintenance allowance from the time of the child's birth until his fourteenth year."

As Frank reported to Hitler, and as he recounted at his Nuremberg war crimes trial, based on what he learned "the possibility cannot be dismissed that Hitler's father was half Jewish as a result of an extramarital relationship between the Schickelgruber woman and the Jew from Graz. This would mean that Hitler was one-quarter Jewish."

When Adolf Hitler was presented with the results of Frank's investigation, although denying he was Jewish, Hitler did admit to Frank that a Jewish man paid his grandmother money, because the "Jew" was tricked into believing he was the father of Alois. Of course this means, if Adolf (or rather Frank) is to be believed, that his grandmother was having sex with a Jewish man before she became pregnant.

What these stories all have in common, of course, is that Hitler's grandfather was a rich "Jew," and that after becoming pregnant his grandmother was banished from the Rothschild or Frankenberger or the Ottenstein home and sent back to her village to have her baby, Alois. It also appears that funds and even "hush money" were secretly provided for her and the baby.

When required to fill out the baptismal certificate for her son, she left the line as to the father of her boy, completely blank. Why did she leave it blank? Two reasons. Having been impregnated by a Jewish man was nothing to be proud of given the hateful anti-Semitic attitudes of the ignorant peasant farmers and villagers of Lower Austria. Secondly, it is said that she was paid to keep the paternity secret.

Yet another factor suggesting that Alois was Jewish was the fact that he was nothing like the peasants of his mother's village where people intermarried and produced generation and after generation of peasant farmers. Alois in fact left the village and sought his fortune. Alois was supremely self-confident, politically astute, and ambitious, and with the help of influential aristocrats in Vienna, Alois became a government official. Alois presumably inherited these traits from his father, who was most likely a very intelligent and successful Jew.

SCHICKELGRUBER BECOMES HIEDLER BECOMES HITLER

Abram Becomes Abraham. Jacob Becomes Israel

As to the name "Hitler," although Alois Schickelgruber was proud of his heritage, he found it to his financial advantage to change his name at age 39. Exceedingly shrewd and ambitious, Alois was presented with an opportunity to become instantly a man of considerable property; and the name of that opportunity was Johann Hiedler who had lived in nearby town of Weitra. Johann Hiedler died at age 84 without wife or children--a condition that normally would result in his estate being confiscated by the Austrian government.

Alois instantly seized this opportunity and made arrangements with the local parish priest to alter the parish birth and adoption records (Shirer, 1941, 1960). The priest scratched out the name "Shicklegruber" and penciled in "Hiedler."

Alois, however, wasn't especially fond of the "Hiedler" moniker, and altered the spelling to make it sound more pleasing. Alois "Hiedler," became Alois Hitler, and Alois Hitler, unlike any of his mother's peasant farmer relatives, became an official in the Austrian government (Payne, 1973; Shirer, 1941, 1960).

ALOIS: A BASTARD JEW?

According to German historian, Helmut Heilber: "The aberrational quality of the Hitler family beginning with the ambitious and enterprising father of Adolf shows that other blood must have entered the Lower Austrian Waldviertel stock which had been weakened by years of inbreeding."

Likewise, according to Walter Langer (1972) who was employed by the Office of Strategic Services to conduct a study of Hitler just before the war: "The intelligence and behavior of Alois, as well as that of his two sons (Alois Jr., and Adolf), is completely out of keeping with that usually found in Austrian peasant families. Their ambitiousness and extraordinary political intuition are much more in harmony with the Rothschild tradition."

Alois was not only ambitious and successful, but proud of his paternity--having a father who was wealthy and an aristocrat. Alois, in fact, chose a Jewish man to act as Adolf Hitler's godfather (Langer, 1972), and a Jewish doctor helped to deliver Hitler into this world.

Thus, the evidence strongly suggests that Alois was half Jewish and that Adolf Hitler was one quarter Jewish--a possibility vehemently rejected by Nazis and Jews alike.

Bush Bush Bush BLAH BLAH BLAH 14.Jun.2004 22:20

The Realist

My dear Mr. Publicus:

You are just so silly.
How can I argue with someone who doesn't even know who the president is.
Just so you know: we are in the 16th year of the rein of King George Herbert Walker Bush.
Eight years under the stooge Reagan, four years of his own, and now four under his idiot son (with Cheney as his handler).
Ronald Reagan back in the late '40's was so far to the left he was known as "Ronnie The Red". He was taken to Roggenfelder and asked (as a 'B' grade actor), "hey Ronnie, can you play a conservative?". "Why sure, boss." He then turned on a dime and became a raving right winger. First head of the screen actor's union, he then became anti-union and fired 12,000 air traffic controllers, only 2000 of which came back. He also snitched on some lifelong friends during the HUAC hearings. Reagan never said anything in office that wasn't printed on a 3X5 card. Seynour Hersch recounts from a source that when Ronnie was being extensively briefed on Iran Contra, he fell asleep on Nancy's shoulder within the first five minutes, and within ten he was snoring loudly. Tip O'Niel said that "in my 50 years in Gov't, I would have to say that Ron Reagan is the dumbest S.O.B. I have ever run into. He used to come into cabinet meetings wearing his bedroom slippers, and the Joint Chiefs had to bring in toy boats and airplanes to demonstrate what they were trying to convey".

Cant you see its all a friggin' show - the Pendleton shirts, the horse riding, the wood chopping. Are you an infant?
Cant you picture in your mind them laughing at you for buying this crap???
They dont even give you a good show anymore, indicative of their utter contempt for you.
"Search this forum" - you gotta be kidding man!!!!

And remember - Ronnie almost got it 2 months into his term......
(Still trading links with the brain dead)

OUR RULER, BUSH

Conspiracy Nation
August 8, 1998 Brian Redman


Conspiracy Nation -- Vol. 12 Num. 27
=======================================
("Quid coniuratio est?")


-----------------------------------------------------------------

OUR RULER, BUSH
===============
(But Who Rules Bush?)
---------------------

The U.S. presidency is not the ultimate level of power; there are
several rungs of power =above= that of U.S. President. As stated
by Larry Nichols, "[Bill] Clinton is not the power. He's a
cheap, tin man... he's probably a 5th- to 7th-level player. And
Jackson Stephens (the people that own Clinton) are probably 3rd-
or 4th-level. I don't even =know= who's the 1st- and 2nd-level!"

The late CIA Director William Colby once described the ideal
agent as a faceless, grey man, the sort that no one notices. And
which ex-President is keeping a low profile since leaving office?
Strange how presumably political George Bush now is seen mostly
at golf tournaments. Has George Bush, Sr., after decades at the
centers of power, suddenly lost interest in it all?

The Bush clan traces its ancestry back to auld England. Their
roots go back to King Henry III and George Bush is a thirteenth
cousin, twice removed, of Queen Elizabeth II. You may recall
that George Bush, Sr., was knighted a few years ago, making him
"Sir Bush" or "Lord Bush."

The future Lord, while a student at Yale University, was inducted
into the secret Skull & Bones society. Antony C. Sutton, in his
book, *America's Secret Establishment*, writes as follows on the
ultra-secret Skull & Bones society:

Those on the inside know it as The Order. Others have
known it for more than 150 years as Chapter 322 of a German
secret society. More formally, for legal purposes, The
Order was incorporated as The Russell Trust in 1856.

According to Robert Gaylon Ross, Sr., in his book, *Who's Who Of
The Elite*, "The Order [Skull & Bones] is powerful, unbelievably
powerful... Honors and financial rewards are guaranteed by the
power of The Order. But the price of these honors and rewards is
sacrifice to the common goal, the goal of The Order."

Lord Bush has a mythology surrounding him which misrepresents him
as some sort of entrepreneur "wild catter" in the oil business.
In fact, according to Brigadier General (ret.) Russell S. Bowen,
George Bush, Sr.'s, Zapata Oil Company "owes its success to an
ability to negotiate contracts with large international oil
companies in competition with 140 other offshore drilling
companies. Zapata has taken advantage of government financing
programs and especially U.S. government-guaranteed ship-financing
securities..." (*The Immaculate Deception*)

Zapata Oil would come in handy for Bush over the years as a
front, disguising his CIA activities. For example, before and
after the Bay of Pigs fiasco of 1961, Bush worked directly with
anti-Castro Cuban groups using his Zapata Oil as a cover.

In the late 1970s/early 1980s, George Bush was part of a
successful plot to delay the release of American hostages held by
Iran, so as to sabotage Jimmy Carter's re-election hopes; this
plot is known as "The October Surprise." (See CN 9.53) Around
this time also, Ronald Reagan was ordered by the Rockefellers to
"choose" George Bush, Sr., as his running mate during the 1980
presidential race. Then, the 1981 assassination attempt on
Ronald Reagan occurred. That assassination attempt was part of a
larger plot. John Hinckley, Jr., the supposed "lone nut
assassin," is the son of John Hinckley, Sr. John Hinckley, Sr.,
is the owner of Vanderbilt Oil and had been, for years, a
neighbor of George Bush, Sr. Hinckley, Sr., had been a regular
"campaign contributor" to George Bush, Sr., for decades. And
there are other troubling questions about the 1981 assassination
attempt on Ronald Reagan as well. (See "Statement of Colonel
(ret.) James 'Bo' Gritz," in notes below.)

Once Ronald Reagan had been sworn in as President in 1981, it
appears he didn't defer enough to his Vice President, George
Bush, Sr. Reagan perhaps thought that, as President, he was
basically in charge. He received a strong message to the
contrary when he was almost killed two months into his
presidency. After fortuitously surviving the attempted
assassination, Reagan knew that he'd better let George handle
certain things.

The *de facto* U.S. President from 1981 through 1992 was George
Herbert Walker Bush, Sr. Then, in 1992, George Bush threw away
his chances for re-election, giving it away to William Jefferson
Clinton. Bill Clinton, like George Bush, is a long-time CIA
asset. Clinton, according to the book, *Partners In Power*, was
recruited by CIA way back when he was a student at Oxford in the
late 1960s. Secret Bush-Clinton connections are unearthed in
such books as *Compromised* and *Boy Clinton*.

Waiting in the wings is George Bush, Jr., SON OF BUSH, now
Governor of Texas. George, Jr.'s, apparently pre-ordained
election as U.S. President in the year 2000 (see CN 10.85) will
continue the Bush dynasty, begun in 1981 after the attempted
assassination of Ronald Reagan. But who rules Bush?

---------------------------<< Notes >>---------------------------

Excerpts from a talk given by Lt. Col. "Bo" Gritz in Mesa,
Arizona on April 4, 1992.

In Mesa, I met with him [Cleon Skaas(?)] and I said, "Why in the
world did Ronald Reagan sell us down the tube by taking George
Bush as his running mate?" And I really didn't know that Cleon
knew Ronald Reagan rather well. But he told me: He said, "Bo,
George Bush was Ronald Reagan's greatest opponent," (if you'll
remember, back in the 1980 elections), "and Ronald Reagan said he
would never have him. Then, Ronald Reagan was invited to New
York to go see Rockefeller. When he saw Rockefeller, he was
told, 'If you do not take my head of the Trilateral Commission'"
(remember, the Council on Foreign Relations, George Bush) "'as
your running mate, the only way you'll see the inside of the
White House is as a tourist.'"

Two months after he was inaugurated, two months is all that
Ronald Reagan lasted. March 30th, 1981, two months after his
inauguration in January of 1981, he was shot -- was he not? And
the news said that he was shot by John Hinckley, Jr., and that
John Hinckley, Jr., was some kind of a Jodie Foster freak. And
that he came out of nowhere, and that he shot Brady in the head,
and he shot a policeman in the neck, and he shot a Secret Service
man and blew him back over the vehicle, and he shot Ronald
Reagan. Right?

Well, remember the hardware. That's why I gave you a little
introduction... I did. [Gritz had talked earlier about some
sophisticated "tools of the trade."] Soon as I see this stuff I
begin to wonder, because I've been a part of these kinds of
operations. Let's just go back and review. It's all in the book
[*Called to Serve*(?)], and so, very quickly I'll run down
through you.

When Brady was shot, no question. Here we've got John Hinckley,
Jr., Oh, by the way, is John Hinckley, Jr., just some kind of a
"weirdo?" Isn't it strange that John Hinckley, Sr., is the owner
of Vanderbilt Oil? And, of course, George Bush is the owner of
Zapata Oil. Was it a coincidence, then, that John Hinckley, Sr.,
and George Bush are neighbors *for years* in Houston, Texas,
working together? Is it any coincidence that John Hinckley, Sr.,
when you go back through the FEC, the Federal Election
Commission, his own record of giving maximum donations every year
to Mr. Bush even when he started running for Congress. Well now,
does that make his son, John Hinckley, Jr., seem a little bit
less of a coincidence? I think it does. Here's why:

When the President was shot, if you'll remember, he was pushed
into the car by a man named Jerry Parr(sp?) that was his Secret
Service guard. Jerry Parr fell on top of him and, I just saw in
the *Reader's Digest* where Jerry Parr was telling his "valiant
story." And the limousine tore off, didn't it? Now it was *five
minutes later* that the ambulance arrived and they put the Secret
Service man, the Washington, D.C. policeman, and Brady in the
ambulance and *it* roared off. Using normal time-rate/distance,
who should have arrived at George Washington University Hospital
first? The President should have. Well, who did? You know it's
a trick question. The ambulance arrived 15 minutes before the
President. When asked, "What happened?" the Secret Service
simply responded, "We got lost."

The Secret Service does not get lost in Washington, D.C. They
don't get lost in most places of the world. And so, now the
investigation starts to get a little interesting. When they take
Ronald Reagan in, they can see that he... matter of fact, his
heart almost stopped. And he is convulsing; there's blood on his
lips. They know he's hurt... seriously. But they can find no
wounds. They X-ray him *3 times* and can find nothing.

Finally, a nurse notices a tiny entrance wound right at the
seventh rib, underneath the armpit. And a doctor takes a probe,
and by... very carefully, because they couldn't see it on X-ray,
the doctor is able to extract what he said was a planchet,
thinner than a dime, that was one-quarter inch from Ronald
Reagan's aorta.

Now, Ronald Reagan says... as a matter of fact, let me just see
if I can just read it to you... best what Ronnie says. I've got
all this in the book... This came right out of a newspaper:

I knew I had been hurt, but I thought that I'd been hurt by
the Secret Service man landing on me in the car. As it
was, I must say it was the most paralyzing pain. I've
described it as if someone hit you with a hammer. But the
sensation, it seemed to me, came after I was in the car and
so I thought that maybe his gun or something had broken a
rib. I set up on the seat, and the pain wouldn't go away
-- and suddenly, I found I was coughing up blood.

Now you see, to almost anyone else you might say, "Well, just
some kind of a fluke." But I'm a skeptic. Because I know how
these things have happened ever since they "took out" John
Fitzgerald Kennedy. I think maybe JFK was the last honest
President that we had...

Plantation Nation 14.Jun.2004 22:52

klaatu

Realist,
"You are dealing with the most vicious people who have ever took a breath planet Earth." ... I'm afraid your correct.

OK, Xymphora cuts to the chase here regarding what looks like the turnover.
Go to the originating for the hotlinks.
--->>  http://xymphora.blogspot.com/2004/06/continuing-triumph-of-neoconservatism.html

Here is the Clip
"Tuesday, June 15, 2004

 
It has become very fashionable to believe that the neocons are on the run, and their hold over American politics has finally come to an end. Nothing could be further from the truth. Although Iraq isn't going well, and the torture issue is proving to be a bit of an embarrassment for certain Washington elites, the power of the neocons continues pretty much unabated. They are keeping a low profile until it is clear that oil prices will stay low enough for Bush to be reelected, but their ultimate plans for the Middle East and the world remain in place, and are quietly advancing. Americans who think that some fairy godmother - either the CIA, 'patriotic' U. S. generals, or the U. S. Congress - is going to rescue them are dreaming in technicolor. All kinds of terrible legal things are supposed to be in the works for Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Ashcroft, and all the infamous neocons from Wolfowitz on down. Just who exactly will be bringing all these people to justice?


the Republican-controlled Justice Department?;


The Republican-controlled House of Representatives?;


the Republican-controlled Senate?;


the Republican-controlled court system?;


the Republican-controlled (and completely corrupted) Supreme Court?;


the Republican-controlled Executive Branch?;


the Republican-contolled media?; or maybe


the Christian Zionist cult hostage President?


This isn't your father's Republican Party, the one that might have had enough integrity and respect for the Constitution to can Nixon. These guys are loyal to only one thing: their continued hold on power. The only thing that will save the United States from the neocons and the further wars and domestic terrors that will be imposed by them is the ballot box in November. But what's going to happen there?:


Bush's core group of knuckle-dragging knucklehead Christian Zionist crazies remains completely intact (these people actually like the fact that the United States is torturing people, especially if it involves the breach of international law);


the Democrats have a very weak candidate;


another 'terrorist' attack would turn Bush into a hero overnight, and make Americans rally around the President for protection;


Rove no doubt has an 'October Surprise' up his sleeve (the capture of OBL?);


the crooked electronic voting machines are facing a bit of a battle, but in a very close election enough of them will be in place in November for the executives at Diebold and other companies to switch enough votes to make the difference;


incredibly, brother Jeb is still (!!!) jobbing the voting lists in Florida to systematically disenfranchise black people (is it still 1955 in Florida?), and using crooked voting machines; and


when all else fails, Bush always has the crooked Supreme Court in his pocket.


The United States is in extreme danger, perhaps the greatest danger it has ever faced, and not only is it unrealistic to count the neocons out, it is also very dangerous. Here, from Bob Dreyfuss, are their plans for Saudi Arabia (my emphasis):

"Before the war in Iraq, a former ambassador to Saudi Arabia, James Akins, told me that by invading Iraq the Bush administration would accelerate the spread of Al Qaeda-style movements in Saudi Arabia, and it's happening. The country is said to be in a state of incipient civil war, and the royal family is apparently unable to stem the spread of the bin Ladenite poison. Saudi Arabia's ambassador to the United States has called on the kingdom to conduct an all-out war against the terrorists, but it could be too little, too late. Make no mistake, however: if Saudi Arabia falls to radicals, U.S. forces will occupy that country's oil fields faster than you can say 'imperialism.' And if that happens, it will be Phase 2 of the neocons' expanded plans for the Middle East: first topple Saddam and 'flatten Iraq,' as another former ambassador to Saudi Arabia described the essence of the neocon Iraq strategy, and then move on to Saudi Arabia.

'I've stopped warning that bin Laden might take over Saudi Arabia,' Akins told me last year. 'I think that's exactly what they want.' And then American forces would move in. No U.S. government could tolerate the collapse of Saudi Arabia. Oil experts are already pointing out that sources of oil outside Saudi Arabia and Iraq are rapidly being drained, meaning that those two countries are basically the only two sources of expanded future supply. Period."

Sometime towards the end of the second Bush term I can see the United States engaged in World War III (known to future historians as the Greater Israel War) in the Middle East with Iraq-style occupations (or worse) in Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia (not to mention Cuba, Venezuela, and North Korea). While people fantasize about various bad things that might happen to the neocons, Israel continues to steal land to build more illegal settlements, the Israeli-American apartheid wall continues to go up, Saudi Arabia, Syria and Iran are under imminent threat of attack (Dreyfuss goes on to point out in the posting I cited above that Iraq's aggressive nuclear posturing is based on the fact it knows it will soon have to defend itself), and the 'strategy of terror' continues against Americans. The neocon plans are advancing nicely, and nothing can stop them."

Regarding Hitler: How about Stalin. Djugashvili, Stalin's given name translated I'm told means Son of Jew, ie Jewison.

Well, before we get painted with the all purpose "anti Semite" brush let me say I agree with Henry Makow: "Is it Jewish? Many misguided or opportunistic Jews are part of it. So are many gentiles. The owners of the central banks and allied corporations are both Jewish and gentile."

Regarding depopulation: Every plantation owner knows that too may slaves muck things up, A well run plantation nation needs to cull the herd.

"If I were reincarnated I would wish to be returned to earth as a killer virus to lower human population levels."

- Prince Philip Duke of Edinburgh, leader of the World Wildlife Fund - quoted in 'Are You Ready For Our New Age Future?', Insiders Report, American Policy Center, December '95)

Be Careful out There 15.Jun.2004 00:24

The Realist

I might add a bit of warning here fella.
You might want to stifle yourself a bit.
Very soon now, these type of posts will get you some hard jail time.
I heartily recommend using a software proxy server.
Every IP is logged in here as you post, I'm sure.
There are F-B-I servers that sit alongside your IP hosts servers and everything is filtered thru them.
Everything.
Were I a young man, still with children, I would not even post on political/conspiracy forums.
I recommend Steganos Internet Anonymous Pro 6. It is totally automated and transparent.
When it starts it slows things down, until it builds a database of anonymous servers around the world.
Then, after about 10 min., you will only notice a slight slowdown.

And once again -
Preaching to the choir
The futile trading of links.

 http://www.vanguardnewsnetwork.com/temp/HistoryofOurWorld.html

Poll that counts 15.Jun.2004 00:24

klaatu

Publicus, you have a point. What happens when soldiers refuse to fight? There is a poll that matters.

All traffic thru NSA 15.Jun.2004 07:42

klaatu

It's my understanding that all traffic goes thru NSA. Hell, even IndyMedia is funded by Soros, well that's what I hear.

Everything Is An Illusion 15.Jun.2004 09:33

The Realist

Ah yes, Mr. "Soros"
International finacier, billionaire.

Gee Soros sounds Greek doesn't it???

In fact Mr. "Soros" real name is Schwartz, his father a German Jew, however himself being born in Hungary (allegedly). I actually kind of doubt "Schwartz" with a father first name of "Tivador"
In fact Mr. "Soros" is a Rothschield agent, brought to their attention by the clever black market money changing skills exhibited by him during Nazi occupation. The Rotes-schilds are always looking for a few good men.

 http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=10781

~~~snip~~~~
Who is this shadowy, controversial man George Soros? Born in 1930 in Hungary, he watched Nazis march into his nation and kill relatives in a 1944 extermination of 440,000 Hungarian Jews. He survived by pretending to be Ayran, and then witnessed Soviet Marxists replace the Nazis. "My experiences under Nazi and Soviet rule," he says, "have sensitized me."

Soros' father Tivador, a lawyer/publisher/writer, changed the family's real last name, Schwartz, to Soros in 1936. "Soros grew up in a family that was so detached from its Jewish roots," summarized a Business Week reviewer of his biography, "that they even vacationed in Nazi Germany, with Tivador shrugging off 'No Jews Allowed' signs by telling his wife, 'You are a foreigner, it's not for you.'"

After World War II, Soros fled alone as a poor 17-year-old immigrant to London, where he worked at a variety of small jobs. "I broke my leg and was taken care of, free of charge, by the National Health Service," recalled Soros with gratitude. "I depended on government assistance." He also, with resentment, remembers from these years how little assistance various Jewish social welfare agencies he approached were willing to give him.
~~~~snip~~~~

"He pretended".
How many times do I have to say it - 10? 100? 1000?
Nothing you know about anything is reality.
Do you see how advanced you have to be to rid yourself of your chains???
You have to be as clever as they are - but you do not have the genetic makeup to be so, to be one of "the chosen" my friend.
To them you are ibecilic little children, deserving only contempt, too stupid to live.
That's why they intermarry, frown on race mixing.
Geneaology is everything.
It's all about bloodlines.
I am getting dizzy repeating myself to an audience of 1.
Perhaps I might have to break my own rules of the game.

Amy should do her show in her way 15.Jun.2004 12:35

A. Z. Arrow newlogic@together.net

I think there is nothing wrong with airing CIA analyst on Democracy Now! -as long as it is stated up front. These CIA folks have presented some of the sharpest critiques made about the Bush administration. Arrow has re-posted interviews and articles by Ray Mc Govern, Robert Mac Michaels, and Mel Goodman on the Charleston Gazette forums. And Arrow will continue to do so when he thinks that these CIA folks have something important to add to the public's understanding of power and neo-con-colonialism. In the past, I have heard this type of criticism -aimed at me in other situations- over the use of "politically incorrect" sources. It comes from the Green type liberals and idealist who's personal intent is to control the terms of political debate and thus control the political agenda. To think of all members of the US government and all institutions of society as a monolith is a political error of dogmatism. That kind of idealism usually results in unnecessary isolation of these same progressive groups. My practical experience within this state, and long before that, inside the civil rights and anti-war movements, taught me that we must learn to work with all types of people yet work with the aim of exposing and isolating the enemy. This approach does not demand that progressives be uncritical or unprincipled. These guys on Goodman's show have identified themselves as CIA analyst, talk openly about who they work(ed) for, but they have also voiced strong and informed opposition to Bush. No big deal. Amy Goodman should continue doing her work in her way. Her show has been a sound stage for progressives and she is attempting to deepen the debate and share information.



As to David Ray Griffin, his sources and perspective cannot be dismissed based on work done at MIT. The fact that he draws attention to the anomalies of 9/11 is great. If Amy Goodman set him up in a "hostile debate format" it backfired. Griffin more than "held his own" ground against the nay-saying true believers. Progressives need not see everything eye to eye. I will write Democracy Now! and request that they air another show with Griffin but this time with the addition of the "three other major skeptical investigators" who do not work for MIT. The MIT group attacked Griffin for relying on these three other "non-professional" sources and claimed that one worked with French intelligence as though that invalidated Griffin's work.



Re: Sibel Edmonds -heard the interview she did with Jim Hogue. She will need to follow the example of Daniel Ellsberg (who once worked for the CIA). Truth-Out!



BC: Thanks for calling my attention to this Portland Forum about Amy's show and Griffin's book.

NOTE: Davis Ray Griffin has a book out about 911. XX- sent the link below about a controversy surrounding Amy Goodman's airing of a program with Griffin as guest. Griffin apparently has supporters. I listened to the show and didn't think of it as anything other than a debate format. Griffin made his case. I think there is much unanswered about the events of that day. As I mentioned on the phone Khalid bin Mahfouz is a major client of former Governor Kean's law firm and now serves as the chair the "investigation." The final report will generate hot air and likely hold up the corporate media version of events. Maybe a tid-bit here and there. The Commission's function is to "white wash' Bush, NORAD, and American foreign policy in the Middle East.


~A. Z. Arrow

Addenda 16.Jun.2004 00:28

The Realist

oops. better post a link for basis of allegation as to George Schwartz being an agent of Rothschild.
(Dont want to be sued for libel - heh)

 http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/soros.html

Berlet and the CIA 16.Jun.2004 09:08

Maureen

-----------------
[W]hile Chip Berlet's affiliation with the Political Research Associates (PRA) was made known, you failed to mention the controversy related to PRA's alleged ties to the Ford Foundation:  http://tinyurl.com/yuptu

It is also known that the Ford Foundation has a long-term connection with Democracy Now and Pacifica generally:  http://www.questionsquestions.net/feldman/feldman01.html

Recall that the Ford Foundation has been reportedly linked to the CIA for decades. By specifically choosing Berlet to challenge Griffin this episode of Democracy Now! strongly resembles a CIA propaganda campaign.
-----------------

Focus on Chip Berlet-- he.. "was a leader of the National Student Association during the late 1960s, when it was exposed for having received CIA financing, in a Ramparts magazine exposé.)"

more curious Pentagon pics to show Amy Goodman 19.Jun.2004 09:41

.

.
"We did it!" Trash all evidence, plant that red piece, send it to CNN. Swwweet!
Bury it quick! The Global Hawk is dead! Long live the Global Hawk!
Bury it quick! The Global Hawk is dead! Long live the Global Hawk!

911 Blah Blah Blah 19.Jun.2004 11:27

The Realist

this thread is picture perfect to illustrate my point
you losers just keep going on and on about this or that discrepancy.
Chip Berlet, Amy Goodman, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.
WTC - BLAH BLAH BLAH
Even if I were to hit you in the head every time you posted some WTC anomaly with a 2 by 4, you still would come back with more of your loser investigations.
There is no way to get through to you people, it is physically, mentally, psychologically impossible.
Read this whole stupid thread and weep.

I have saved this in total, and will come back when HELL starts to tell you morons, "I told you so."

I simply am not going to let you off the hook in this thread, you will not continue with your insanity unchallenged-

The mysterious world of Israeli movers
 http://home.att.net/~professorboris/SPECTRE/melnik_and_israeli_movers.htm

All of the movers can be traced back to the New York Jewish Mafia. The only place the Italian Mafia exists is in Hollywood.

Maier Suchowljansky (Meyer Lansky), the son of Jewish parents, was born in Grodno, Russia on 4th July, 1902. The family moved to the New York in 1911. He is credited with starting the Mafia.
To get a total picture we need to go back in time and fit all the players together

Lansky - Mossad - Melnik - Movers - 9/11
9/11 was masterminded by Israel
Ruddy Dekkers ran Huffman aviation which provided the hijackers

Richard Boehlke finances Ruddy Dekkers
Boehlke was also linked to a firm called Capital investments, which was headed by a guy called Jeff Grayson. But Grayson disappeared in 2000 after $355 million went missing from Capital's investment fund.
Another man that is connected to Capital Consultants is Alvin Malnik, once been called "Meyer Lansky's heir" (famous mob financier). Richard Bloeke

Rudi Dekkers became partner of Richard Boehlke ("Harbor Air"), in an airline venture called Florida Air (now Triple Diamond)

Mossad posing as art students and movers are all over New York. An arrest of two Israelis is covered here

Hopsicker who is the authority on this , details everything here

Alvin Melnik seems to be the Mafia link to Israel
wpeBC.jpg (5276 bytes) Alvin Melnik on the right (born 1932), and was picked by some observers of organized crime to be Lansky's probably successor.

Malnik Is a New York gangster/lawyer who moved to Florida. He is to control the Bahamas gambling and Caribbean drug running.

Attorney for mob financial guru Meyer Lansky, who competed with Santos Trafficante for control of the Florida and Cuba drug traffic for many years. In 1962, Malnik was listed as a director of the Bank of World Commerce, a Bahamas-based institution that involved 'some of the nations' top gangsters,'

Malnik first came to prominence in the early 1960s with the attempt to establish a gambling resort at Paradise Island in the Bahamas. He had already established himself in the banking and real estate businesses in Miami but soon become Lansky's public "front-man."

The Paradise Island venture led to the establishment of Resorts International, the entertainment and gambling conglomerate which was the subject of intense law enforcement scrutiny for years as charges of control by Meyer Lansky surfaced (Mahan, 1980).


A Bahamian company named Appolonia Investment Limited allegedly paid over three million dollars to purchase property of Malnik in Nassau, and a ranch, owned by Malnik.

Paradise Island - Nassau

Jewish mobsters tie to the Saudis

Records filed with the Register General's Office disclose that the principal shareholder in Appolonia Investment Ltd. was a member of Saud Royalty, the son of King Abdul Aziz. This Royal Prince just happens to have been a neighbor of Alvin's in Florida. Malnik's son Mark, in fact, changed his name to Shareef and married into the Saud Royal family.

The Saudi Prince's father - whose daughter Mark, n/k/a Shareef, Malnik married - is not only alleged to have ties to US organized crime associates, but he is also said to have complete control over his daughter's actions.

Sam Cohen
In the early 1970s, Malnik was also involved with Sam Cohen's sons in land deals in Florida and the Poconos. Their companies -- COMAL and "Cove Associates" -- dealt with Caesar's World and the Teamsters Pension Fund, both institutions which have attracted a substantial amount of law enforcement attention

Finally, Allen R. Glick (born 1942) of Pittsburgh attracted a great deal of attention when his firm ARGENT (A.R. Glick Enterprises) seemingly came from nowhere to secure a vast Teamsters loan (about $146 million).

Sam Cohen fits the pattern we have seen so often, of continuity from the Prohibition gangs to the financial world of the 1970s and 1980s. He moved from New York to Florida in the 1920s and joined the exodus to Nevada in the 1950s (Messick, 1969: 326-331, 363; Mollenhoff, 1973: 186). Cohen - Malnik
Lansky establishes Israel as the money laundering center
Lansky allegedly laundered Mafia proceeds to Israel via front companies that were set-up in the Bahamas.Malnik himself was, at one time, listed as the director of a Bahamas based entity called, Bank of World Commerce, that was alleged to be involved with some of U.S.'s "top gangsters". Source

Title Loans of America --- which owns hundreds of offices throughout the Southeast --- is owned by Alvin Malnik ,a South Florida attorney. Malnik, 67.

Title Loans of America is owned by two trusts whose sole beneficiary is Alvin Malnik, a Miami lawyer whom the New Jersey Casino Control Commission found in 1980 and 1992 to be "a person of unsuitable character" to have any role in the industry.
Malnik's South Beach mansion

Malnik - Boelhke - Rudy Dekkers

Malnik and Miami Vice in Florida
Mark Malnik is Alvin's son. He takes over the Forge restaraunt and is a movie star and a Jewish jet setter. He is a fixture in South Beach.

Aranow made his money in the New Jersey construction business - moves to Floridia and starts Donzi boats.

He made a fortune building homes and shopping centers; by 28 he was a millionaire and was suspected of ties to organized crime during his years in the construction business in New Jersey?

Aranow was a drug smuggler and suspected drug-money launderer linked to the Genovese Purple Gang of New York City

He was murdered by Mafia-style professional killers on February 3, 1987

Two Israelis from Tennessee are out of South Beach, Miami

South Beach is the creation of the Jewish mafia

Connect to New York mob

These two Israelis are arrested in Tennessee as they leave a storage facility owned by a Sal Annone of New Jersey.

Sal Annone is from New Jersey. He bought the business three or four years back." The Israeli 'movers' rented a storage locker at Triple AAA Storage outside Mars Hill before their arrest.

What were they doing

The arresting sheriff cited the proximity of the Nuclear Fuel Services plant nearby, the nation's sole provider of fuel for the Navy's nuclear subs, according to officials.

They were just three miles from where, if you get off at exit 15, off I-26, you're just a half-mile from all the nuclear plants," he told the MadCowMorningNews. "There's Nuclear Fuel Services, which is a privately-owned company. Studdwick, another privately-owned company. And they're building a third one now."

Now ties to Florida

Once the men were apprehended, officers also found a business card that offered flying lessons in Florida, The truck, rented from a Ryder office in the Miami area, was being held in the county garage. Shmuel Dahan, for example, listed an address in swanky Miami Beach, and had more than $12,000 in his personal bank account.

The sheriff said the truck was rented in Mars Hills, N.C. He also said Daran produced a fake Florida driver's license issued in Plantation, Fla.

It is believed that the organized crime provided the swanky apartment and high style life style.

It seems there are Meth labs in Johnson City and we are likely into Esctacy distribution.

Kings Bay Naval Submarine Base - St. Marys, GA
The Israeli movers scouting the Georgia naval base were too and were probably a dilution of the Tennessee event.

Waco and the Oklahoma City bombing
The SPLC ( American Mossad ) needs to focus on Militias and they decide that Waco will be their first confrontation.

Vince foster is about to go public with Hillary , SPLC and Gen Wesley Clark's role in Waco.Nathan Landow talks to Vince Foster and next the Mossad hit Foster

McVeigh was a product of Elohim City and Andreas Strassmeier, who turned out to be a German Jew and who was an FBI informant. The SPLC knows they have to eliminate Militias.

comments 19.Jun.2004 23:01

klaatu

Arrow, i have no disagreement with your take. The crucial point: "-as long as it is stated up front". So who finances Amy?

Picture poster, so what. People picking up trash, the blue tarp is curious, you tell me what it is. The Global Hawk that just blew up the Pentagon and survived in great big pieces? Please man, was it rusty?

Realist, well hell, that looks like evidence to me. More, more senseless link trading.
 http://www.rense.com/general53/dldon.htm

 http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/C1090103-F181-4A05-B20D-A7AB84C9A6A1.htm

 http://www.rense.com/general53/modd.htm

 http://www.wrmea.com/archives/May_2004/0405013.html

 http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0405/S00133.htm

 http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fiveisraelis.html

Lucifer Is King 20.Jun.2004 08:08

The Realist

 http://web004.webspace4you.ch/~swisswebworks-com/tribworks/gold/index.html

Usury, Inc. comment - Patriotism to a satanic regime will cost you your country, your family, the multiple raping of your daughters and wife, and your own slave labor resulting in death... perhaps even for your soul, for Patriotism that supports the US government, or the sworn Luciferian candidates of its main political parties, is blind patriotism to no one less than Lucifer himself. If you are going to mock God, and spit in His face by cutting out hundreds of laws and teachings from the Bible (as does Cabala and its puppet regime, the Vatican), laws that condemn your patriotism and your compromise with the dark and bloodthirsty Illuministic societies of America, and the growing, unspeakable impoverishment, coercion, rape, murder, and destruction of innocent nations around the world -- which have not lifted a finger against you! -- then you, with your patriotism, are chanting and taunting at God, daring Him to take away your liberty, daring Him to invade your land, to allow the rape your wife and daughters repeatedly, take away your home, bomb out your cities, cut up your young babies in front of your eyes, and cut off your heads, just as Bush, the CIA, special ops, and military forces are doing and have done around the world for many, many years.

Lucifer has gone before God in the highest war crimes court, presented the evidence against Americans, and received from God a court order for the total destruction of America. I recently read a prophecy on the website of a very honorable Bible teacher, one of the only ones who has dared to teach the Bible, and expose the Sun Cult lie about the rapture, the Cabala/Masonic temple blasphemy, the monstrous evil and blasphemy called Israel, and the false prophets / pastors of America. In this vision, a man sees 180,000,000 (that's million for government-school graduates) Americans killed in a very very short period of time. I don't doubt it. To see a map of the US destruction which I feel is roughly accurate to what God has shown me, click here.

Albert Pike planned long ago to use PROFESSING Christians to make a bad name for God through supporting WWIII, and pagan Zionism, a war which is (for it has already started!), and will be, so unjust and despicable and horrible that the world will turn on all Christianity, and murder them, many in the way that Nick Berg was supposedly murdered, by beheading. The number one victim of the beheadings will be the foolish "professing" Christian zionists of the United States, and the Jews of the world, especially in Israel (where a breathing and walking Jew will soon be a rare item) but also in America. Make no mistake - the bungled mess of "errors" and civilian deaths and sex stories streaming out of Iraq were events PLANNED carefully by Bush and his Cabalist Moloch worshippers to set up Christianity and Israel as the scapegoats of the current and coming horror. If you think the news is bad coming out of Iraq, wait until the real scapegoating begins! When the Sun Cult is done with their sex, photographs, murder and propaganda, the world will never again want to hear about the beautiful and only hope for this evil world of despair: the love and forgiveness and miraculous change made possible by Jesus Christ, the Lover of all mankind, the Messiah which Judaism rejected, and which, apparently, American Christianity has also rejected. This is all the result of many false prophets, whose fascination with signs and money as proof of God have opened them to the lies of Lucifer, such as Zionism and Aliyah, sending hundreds of thousands of Jews to a certain, horrific death in the camp of Moloch, the pagan State of Israel. Sid and Ulf, you know who you are!

I have warned many people to leave the hellish USA, for it will be 100 times worse than Hitler's Germany, a terror and horror beyond what any nation has ever endured through all of human history. The above snippets give a small glimpse of what is coming, and how the price of living on American soil will rise with every coming month, and for many if not most Americans, will end in pain and death. America has not repented, the churches have closed their eyes, TOLERANCE has engulfed America in its satanic grip, the floodgates of pagan immigration are wide open, New Age and witchcraft rules and rejoices... until death and horror come to their neighborhoods, and they realize that satan, Lucifer, and the Goddess are bigger liars than Bush and Cabala. The door has closed on America. Are there any Christians left? Prepare to meet and answer to your Maker!

...............................

Usury, Inc. Comment - Peter uses the term "stupid" here to describe the Federal Reserve Corporation. This shows that The Street.com is not being entirely honest with you. The Federal Reserve is brilliant, keeping tens of thousands of professional analysts clueless, while they carry out a long-range plan to destroy the United States and collapse the international monetary system, without a single article publishing anything remotely close to the truth about who the Federal Reserve is, the sinister evil which they have now irreversibly accomplished, and the total silence of highly trained money professionals in banking, universities and Wall Street. While "stupid" cannot apply to the Federal Reserve families, it most definitely applies to Americans who have a mortgage, a car loan, revolving debt, and cash - all of which the actions of the brilliant Federal Reserve will cause to ruin every single family holding them (and corporation). "Stupid" also applies to organizations like The Street.com, who are selling investments in a system about to shut down, applies to people with a PhD in macro-economics, analysts who are recommending a portfolio to make money in a bear market, and stock, bond and derivative salesmen, all of whom love cash more than God, you, or their country, not to mention honesty and integrity. My purpose in quoting these less than forthright Wall Street salesmen, is to show you that finally Wall Street is beginning to warn of something severe. And they are doing so because the time of the crash is nigh, and they have already liquidated personal holdings. In truth, many of them really don't know what is coming, but they are seeing incredibly bad things pop out at them right now which indicate something is terribly wrong. Since even the little guy will now see the problems, and since Wall Street's first love is still Money (the motivation for their daily business), they are adapting to the stark reality by trying to sell you security in the now unavoidable crash. In other words, even though they see that the entire country is at risk, they have the time to bundle together a fresh little lie of easy money for the little guy. My advice: please, please don't listen to ANY financial salesman! Their love of money has blinded them, and what is coming will expose their great delusions.

Do you have money in stocks? Your loss after the crash will be 100%. Do you have a 401(k), mutual fund, or money market account or bonds? Is your savings insured for $100,000? Your loss will be 100%. FDIC insurance is a fraud to keep your cash in a fraudulent system until the real crash event comes. It is intended to delude the masses that paper money is not a sin or gross fraud, to sleep fitfully at night because... there is an insurance policy somewhere! Do you have less than half of a property paid off? Your loss will be 100%. Could you lose your house if you miss 3 payments? Your loss will be 100%. Are you 100% in cash? Your loss will be 100%. Do you own gold or silver, but it is parked in a mutual fund or at E-Trade or Merrill Lynch - digits in a computer account? Your loss will be 100%. Are you hedged for a crash or exchange rate volatility? Your loss will be MORE than 100%. This crash will be so total, that Wall Street, banks, checking accounts, debit cards, and ATMs will be closed - long term, by decree of the law. This will happen even without the coming terror that the CIA and Skull and Bones have planned for you. Can you survive if your employer's office and your bank both are demolished by an invading power? Do you know any way that you can prepare for the loss of your house after missing an electric bill? Do you have a plan to cope with instant 50% unemployment in your country? I do. It is called the "100% Protection Plan," doesn't cost even one worthless dollar - all you need to do is give up everything, including the farm and the kitchen sink, and your complete life to the only perfect person in the universe. In exchange for given up EVERYTHING, you get EVERYTHING (i.e. what you thought was hard to give up, turns out to be nothing in comparison with what you get). This 100% Protection Plan does not allow you to make decisions any more, but the returns are incredible: success (not money), purpose (not a career), every need met (no debt), forgiveness (no more facades and secrets), real hope (since our plans fail) and the prestige of citizenship in a REAL Christian nation (not a satanic one in angel's clothes such as the USA or Switzerland). A child of God, imagine that. A child whose Father never gives me a million, but miraculously pays every bill. A father who never goes away for a few weeks, is never late, and has a plan for every circumstance. A Master Planner who totally relieves my stress of detailed planning for a chaotic, unknown future, regardless of how many disasters The Bank has planned to shock me into subservience and fear. A Father who tells me ahead of time what is coming, who is lying, and why - freeing me to relax and enjoy the landscape while literally the entire world gets in a tizzy and backed into a corner of worry and panic over terror and money, gradually signing away their freedom and will to their own life. Wall Street will never sell you Jesus, because He is not about profit - but surrender. Rothschild, Rockefeller, Rumsfeld, Bush and John Kerry will not discuss Him, because He will set you free from their grasp - and give you a power greater than theirs. Give Him a call - you already have His number... and you -- both your life and your soul -- will not survive the next few years without Him, so incredible are the deceptions and disasters which lie ahead!

Your Constitution Is Another Illusion - It Doesn't Exist 20.Jun.2004 09:10

The Realist

The Constitution you put on a pedestal has no legal validity in the annals of any branch of law.

 http://www.dlhoffman.com/publiclibrary/NoTreason/
 http://www.lysanderspooner.org/notreason.htm (full)

NO TREASON

NO. VI.

THE CONSTITUTION OF NO AUTHORITY


sub heading I.
The Constitution has no inherent authority or obligation. It has no authority or obligation at all, unless as a contract between man and man. And it does not so much as even purport to be a contract between persons now existing. It purports, at most, to be only a contract between persons living eighty years ago (this was written in the 1800's - Ed.). And it can be supposed to have been a contract then only between persons who had already come to years of discretion, so as to be competent to make reasonable and obligatory contracts. Furthermore, we know, historically, that only a small portion even of the people then existing were consulted on the subject, or asked, or permitted to express either their consent or dissent in any formal manner. Those persons, if any, who did give their consent formally, are all dead now. Most of them have been dead forty, fifty, sixty, or seventy years. And the Constitution, so far as it was their contract, died with them. They had no natural power or right to make it obligatory upon their children. It is not only plainly impossible, in the nature of things, that they could bind their posterity, but they did not even attempt to bind them. That is to say, the instrument does not purport to be an agreement between any body but "the people" then existing; nor does it, either expressly or impliedly, assert any right, power, or disposition, on their part, to bind anybody but themselves. Let us see. Its language is:

We, the people of the United States (that is, the people then existing in the United States), in order to form a more perfect union, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

It is plain, in the first place, that this language, as an agreement, purports to be only what it at most really was, viz., a contract between the people then existing; and, of necessity, binding, as a contract, only upon those then existing. In the second place, the language neither expresses nor implies that they had any intention or desire, nor that they imagined they had any right or power, to bind their "posterity" to live under it. It does not say that their "posterity" will, shall, or must live under it. It only says, in effect, that their hopes and motives in adopting it were that it might prove useful to their posterity, as well as to themselves, by promoting their union, safety, tranquility, liberty, etc.

Suppose an agreement were entered into, in this form:

We, the people of Boston, agree to maintain a fort on Governor's Island, to protect ourselves and our posterity against invasion.

This agreement, as an agreement, would clearly bind nobody but the people then existing. Secondly, it would assert no right, power, or disposition, on their part, to compel their "posterity" to maintain such a fort. It would only indicate that the supposed welfare of their posterity was one of the motives that induced the original parties to enter into the agreement.

When a man says he is building a house for himself and his posterity, he does not mean to be understood as saying that he has any thought of binding them, nor is it to be inferred that he is so foolish as to imagine that he has any right or power to bind them, to live in it. So far as they are concerned, he only means to be understood as saying that his hopes and motives, in building it, are that they, or at least some of them, may find it for their happiness to live in it.

So when a man says he is planting a tree for himself and his posterity, he does not mean to be understood as saying that he has any thought of compelling them, nor is it to be inferred that he is such a simpleton as to imagine that he has any right or power to compel them, to eat the fruit. So far as they are concerned, he only means to say that his hopes and motives, in planting the tree, are that its fruit may be agreeable to them.

So it was with those who originally adopted the Constitution. Whatever may have been their personal intentions, the legal meaning of their language, so far as their "posterity" was concerned, simply was, that their hopes and motives, in entering into the agreement, were that it might prove useful and acceptable to their posterity; that it might promote their union, safety, tranquility, and welfare; and that it might tend "to secure to them the blessings of liberty." The language does not assert nor at all imply, any right, power, or disposition, on the part of the original parties to the agreement, to compel their "posterity" to live under it. If they had intended to bind their posterity to live under it, they should have said that their object was, not "to secure to them the blessings of liberty," but to make slaves of them; for if their "posterity" are bound to live under it, they are nothing less than the slaves of their foolish, tyrannical, and dead grandfathers.

~~~~~snipped~~~~~~~~~
(lots more)

Lysanderspooner is da MAN!!!
He got it - do you?????????????????????????????????????????????????

Zionism, Anti-Semitism and the People of Palestine 20.Jun.2004 09:45

klaatu

CounterPunch has a wide ranging history of Zionism and the "outpost of democracy."

 http://www.counterpunch.org/ignatiev06172004.html

Monopoly Capitalism - The Politics Of Choice Of Bloodlines 20.Jun.2004 13:14

The Realist

Hey I got an idea:

Lets reprint the whole conspiracy internet in this Amy Goodman thread.
Mmmmmkay??

 http://www.brojon.org/frontpage/bj050701-1.html
BLACK GOLD HOT GOLD
The Rise of Fascism in the American Energy Business
(Pre-publication online preview excerpt)
(CHAPTER ONE)


-- by Marshall Douglas Smith

What is often called the German or Italian form of Fascism had its roots in America. Both Hitler and Mussolini were funded and brought into power in the 1920's and '30s by international bankers, including the 12 banks which now make up the American Federal Reserve System. But I get ahead of myself.

Beginning in the late 1800's, John D. Rockefeller, by means of a deception, using a ploy with his Union Tanker Car Company was able to control or "corner" the oil market. In this scheme, he owned the company which had the design patent for the all-metal sealed oil tanker railroad car. The same type of tanker cars are still in use today. Rockefeller, through Union Tanker Car, leased tanker cars by the hundreds to the owners of newly discovered oil fields so they could ship the crude to the refiners. This often included kickbacks from the railroad for increasing the profitable traffic on their rails.

In the late 1800's, prior to the design of the tanker railroad car, petroleum was shipped to the refiner in open wooden barrels on flatbed cars. Some of the oil was lost as it sloshed out whenever the train stopped or started or went around corners. Much of the valuable part of the crude oil simply evaporated from the open barrels before it got to the refiner, often leaving only a heavy black tar. The wooden barrels were difficult and time consuming to fill and drain.

The closed metal tanker car was a boon to the new petroleum business. After several months of oil field development and shipments from the numerous wells being sunk in the ground, and after the refiner had built new facilities to handle the increased flow of crude, Union Tanker broke the lease and took back all of its tanker cars.

Since there was no other source for the tanker cars, both the oil field developer and the refiner began to lose money caused by the instantaneous stoppage of the oil flow from field to refinery. Within months the oil producer and the refiner, after making large investments, were now on the verge of bankruptcy. Then John Rockefeller, through his holding company, Standard Oil, simply walked in and purchased both the oil fields and the refinery at pennies on the dollar. He usually also ended up with the railroad in between.

Despite his reputation as an oil magnate, John D himself was not really an oilman. He had little experience as either an oil driller or refiner. He simply leased oil tanker cars and made money buying oil fields and refineries at "distressed" prices. To run his oil fields and refineries, Rockefeller often hired the very same entrepreneurs whom he had just defrauded. They now worked for him. Only many decades later was it discovered who caused the "distress." And any Rockefeller today will point out, "...but it was not illegal."

In the period of 1900 to 1910 this conspiracy was repeated numerous times and Standard Oil then owned almost all the oil fields in California, Texas, Arkansas, New Jersey and Ohio, and several other states. Thus John D. Rockefeller either owned or controlled about 90% of what we now call the energy business. At that time, research shows, not many people knew that Rockefeller owned the Union Tanker Car Company. Otherwise, very few oilmen would have signed bogus leases for the cars if they had known that John D. and Standard Oil owned all the tanker cars.

Many "muckraker" authors of the early 1900's, such as Ida Tarbell, exposed the predatory monopolist marketing practice of Standard Oil. But the Rockefeller connection with Union Tanker, and how Standard came into being, was not discovered until many decades later. And it still is not in the history books. And most of those few books which did show the connection between John Rockefeller and the Union Tanker Car Company have somehow mysteriously disappeared, but not all.

In 1911, the US government brought charges of monopoly against John D. and Standard Oil, and the company was broken apart. The many new companies all had names which were variations of the initials S.O., such as SOHIO in Ohio, SOCONY in New York, ESSO ("S.O.") which later became EXXON, etc. The splitting of the company was a mere inconvenience for Rockefeller. In retaliation, John D. made a vow. He vowed he would put his company back together. He also vowed in turn he would "break apart" the United States. He and his sons and grandsons and their companies have accomplished both. It was completed about 8 years ago. Again, I get ahead of myself.

In the period of 1910 to 1914 there were only three major oil companies in the world, (1) Standard Oil in America and its many "mini-S.O.-standards" after the 1911 breakup, (2) the British-Persian Petroleum Company, which controlled the large oilfields in Persia (now Iran), roughly extending up into southern Russia, and (3) Royal Dutch Shell which controlled the vast oil fields in the old Dutch East Indies Colonies in Indonesia and southeast Asia. John D. resolved to take over control of both the British-Persian Petroleum company and Royal Dutch Shell.

Rockefeller believed the world would be better served if all nasty corporate competition were eliminated. Then he could make the decisions to market petroleum like an efficient, smooth running, well oiled machine. It was simply a continuation of his business practice in the US for the previous 10 years. In several inter-corporate meetings around 1910 this was almost accomplished. He was distracted when the US government broke apart his oil holdings, but he was not deterred.

The big three oil companies agreed, instead, to act jointly as if they were one company, the first oil cartel. They settled on one world price for oil, which from 1910 to about 1975 was the world pegged price of "West Texas Sweet Crude." The law of "supply-and-demand" had been subverted. It was as if everyone bought their oil in Texas from Standard Oil regardless of from where in the world the oil came. They also agreed to divide up the world into three oil zones to match their local oil supplies and markets. To accomplish this they would need to eliminate or take over control of all other smaller local national ownerships of crude oil, or even the colonial ownership of any oil fields, such as in the old colonies of France, Germany, Spain and Portugal.

This was the purpose of World War I from 1914 to 1918, though few people realized it. The elimination of most of the colonialism of the 1800's and the carving up of the world was completed with the Treaty of Versailles. The arbitrary carving of the world into three primary areas is well documented in history books. Until recently, whose hands were behind the carving had not been disclosed.

For Standard Oil to participate in the drawing up of the Treaty of Versailles, the United States would need to participate in WWI. Although the US entered the conflict belatedly and actually had a minimal affect on the outcome of the European war, the US was in on the negotiations and a signatory to the treaty. All went well, but, there was a fly in the ointment. In 1917, Russia did not go along with the plan to steal their huge oilfields. Russia had pulled out of WWI and did not participate in the Treaty of Versailles. The Bolsheviks, after several years of revolution, now had the world's largest supply of oil in southern Russia. Those vast oil fields were not under the control of either Standard, British Petroleum or Royal Dutch.

Prior to World War I, the most common use for petroleum was to make kerosene, a cheap replacement for the smelly whale oil or smoky coal oil in lamps for homes or businesses. Before the general use of electric light bulbs, kerosene was a product which was highly desirable, with a world-wide market. During WWI, it was discovered that petroleum could also be easily refined to make gasoline or diesel fuel for the internal combustion engines that were in the new airplanes, trucks, ships, submarines and tanks developed during the war.

Thus it became clear after 1918, ownership of oil was not only highly profitable but could now determine who won or lost a war. No longer would empires be built on, nor wars fought in the search for and conquest of gold. Gold had been superseded as the means to obtain political power. The internal combustion engine had replaced the war horse. In a period of only several years, a sudden shift in the geopolitics of the world had just occurred. And most people never noticed. He who has the most oil rules. Oil, black gold, became the fuel for the engines of war. A new world empire was about to be created. A new empire, not based on countries or nations, but of private corporations.

The arbitrary carving of the world into three pieces by the Big 3 oil companies in 1918, as determined by the Treaty of Versailles, was one of the reasons why Adolf Hitler wanted to get rid of the Jews. John D. Rockefeller, whose family name had originally been something like the Germanic Rogenfelder, was considered Jewish by most Europeans. Since Germany had just lost all its colonies with their oil fields under the arbitrary carving of national boundaries along oil market lines by the Versailles Treaty, Hitler blamed the "Jews" for all of Germany's problems. Hitler believed those whose hands had done the carving were all Jewish. That's right out of Hitler's book.

For John Rockefeller to overcome the problem of his oil holdings being broken apart by the US government in 1911, he created another stratagem even larger than the Union Tanker Car Company. He took his vast wealth and created 12 large holding banks we now know as the private Federal Reserve. The plot was to somehow sell his banks to the US Congress. He succeeded two years later in 1913.

All federal taxes collected since 1913 go through the private Federal Reserve System banks, whether they are gas taxes, import excise taxes or income taxes. You file your tax return with the Internal Revenue Service, but all the tax money withheld by your employer is sent to a Federal Reserve Bank. At the end of the fiscal year, the government IRS reports to the private Federal Reserve Banks how much income tax is reported on tax returns and then that amount should be transferred to the Federal government. The private Federal Reserve then pays that amount, but does not report or pay the interest earned on that money during the year. That is profit to the Federal Reserve Banks. This is now true of the so-called "central banks" of most nations, which were chartered along the same lines as the American Federal Reserve banks.

That is why they want you to "overpay" your taxes, and then at the end of the year, when you file your return with the IRS, you get back a refund, not from the Fed Banks, but with a check from the US Treasury. The private Fed earns interest on the amount you overpay, but the government Treasury loses the amount you get refunded. The private Federal Reserve pays no taxes and reports to no one. Thus, John Rockefeller and his heirs and assigns, have a cash flow each year equal to a good percentage of the American gross national product and that would be enough to buy out British Petroleum and Royal Dutch Shell, even if Standard Oil was broken into smaller pieces.

Thus financially armed, the very next year, Standard Oil, British Petroleum and Royal Dutch set out to carve up the world into three markets in 1914, in what we call World War I. But ended up with the lion's share of the world's oil still in the hands of the Bolsheviks, later ignominiously called "communists." The Socialists wanted the Russian state to control the national resources such as oil, and not private profit making companies like Standard, British Petroleum or Royal Dutch.

It would be hard for the Big 3 to corner and control the world oil market if the Russians still had the lion's share. To counter the Russian socialists, the Big 3 created and supported numerous "anti-communist" movements, which we now call Fascist. In Fascism, private profit-making corporations work hand-in-hand with governments, as opposed to Socialism where private companies are eliminated, and the country's resources and means of production are controlled by the government, usually a dictator, and the people. The profit from the sale of resources or goods produced goes to the people of the country, not some private corporation.

It was John D. Rockefeller who called the shots at the early Big 3 oil company meetings, even though he could not yet buy out his competitors, the British and the Dutch companies. Thus, as I said previously, Fascism, as a counter to Russian "communism," came right from the US. The Bolsheviks, Marxists and Leninists had long called themselves "socialists." The USSR was the Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republics. They never called themselves "communists." It was John D. and the Big 3 who coined the word and branded them "communists." This was because the Russian Socialists held the oil fields as "community property" and did not allow private corporations like Standard to come in and privately own or steal the oil resources.

Fascism grew out of the attempt of the Big 3 oil companies to form a world cartel to control the world's supply of petroleum and eliminate any other competitors which they branded as "communists." Thus at the end of WWI, after the Treaty of Versailles, and the take over of the large oil fields in southern Russia by the socialists, came the creation of both "communism" and "fascism." Both were constructs, inventions and ploys of the Big 3: Standard Oil, British Petroleum and Royal Dutch Shell. It was a deception which would lead to world empire.

In the 1920's and '30s the Big 3 decided on a plan to eliminate Russian control of oil by "hiring" the small "fascist" movements in Germany and Japan to attack and take over Russia and thus eliminate any state control of oil fields. Most historians would blame large international bankers for funding the rise of fascism. But the bankers had no motivation and fringe fascists parties in Germany, Italy and Japan did not look like good financial risks. But for the Big 3 Oil companies there was a strong motivation to use the "fascists" to defeat the "communists" in Russia and take over the world oil market. And the vast oil wealth which they stored in their international banks provided them with the means. In the 1920's the opportunity was ripe.

Thus the small fascist political parties in Germany, Japan and Italy were given massive Big 3 financial backing to help those minor political parties come to power and build up their military. But things did not go quite as they had planned. The aging John D. had died and his son and four grandsons had decided they would carve up the world along different lines, and at the same time eliminate their competitors, the British and Dutch oil companies.

In 1939 and '40, the Germans did not attack Russia as the Big 3 had expected. Instead German General Rommel went rushing across north Africa to grab the Suez Canal and control all oil shipping through the canal. He then planned to continue on to Persia and toss out the British from the British-Persian oil fields. Also in 1939 the Japanese, after a short abortive attack on Russia in which they were driven out, instead went through southeast Asia and grabbed up all the oil holdings of Royal Dutch Shell. Most of those Royal Dutch fields at the end of the WWII came under the control of Standard Oil.

The British and Dutch companies probably knew in 1939 that their "fascist oil" plan to grab the fields in southern "communist" Russia had gone astray when both the Germans and the Japanese signed non-aggression pacts with Russia, and instead went after the Persian and East Indies oil fields. The grandsons of John D. were as sneaky and devious as their grandfather, but that's the competitive nature of the oil business in the new empire of energy.

The new Standard Oil plan was to have Germany and Japan attack and control Russia and its oil, along with the fields in Persia and Indonesia, then the US would attack and defeat Germany and Japan, thus leaving all the Russian oil in the hands of Standard Oil. And at the same time the holdings of British Petroleum and Royal Dutch Shell would then be taken from the Germans and Japanese, which would then also be controlled by Standard. And no one would be the wiser, since the British and Dutch fields would then just be the spoils of war.

~~~~~~snipped~~~~~~~

chap 1-2-3 is online - but no one reads this stuff, or even this post, hey the Master's golf tournament is on now - why burden the mind with heavy ugly reality.

Nobody cares - dont you understand?
Go see Shrek 2 and dont bother your brain with such seriousness.
Please. Stop torturing me.
Just stop it.
Let it go.

observations of ant piles 20.Jun.2004 19:54

klaatu

>> Please. Stop torturing me.
Just stop it.
Let it go.<<
hahahahahahaaaaaaaa hmmmm Reprint the entire conspiracy on the web? Single or double spaced? That could indeed be the famous Last Page of the internet.
I'm going back to my observations of ant piles.
Happy Father's Day!

Very interesting story and certainly makes the GM buy-out of LA's transit system very small potatoes

If Only JFK jr. Had Married Princess Di - Wow What A Bloodline! 21.Jun.2004 10:39

The Realist

Eustace Mullins
Murder by Injection
Chapter 10
 http://iresist.com/cbg/rockefeller.html
The Rockefeller Syndicate

Many American conservatives believe as a matter of faith that the Rockefellers and the Council on Foreign Relations exercise absolute control over the government and the people of United States . This thesis can be accepted as a working formula if one remains conscious of the larger issues . Two writers for whom the present writer has great respect, Dr. Emanuel Josephson and Morris Bealle, insisted on focusing on the Rockefellers and excluding all other aspects of the World Order . This severely limited the effect of their otherwise ground breaking work on the Medical Monopoly.

This writer advanced a contrary view in "The World Order," fixing upon the Rothschild monetary power, which reached a point of world control by 1885, and its London policy group, the Royal Institute of International Affairs, a the policy makers for what has essentially been since 1900, re-established colonial government in the United States The colonial, or occupation, government, functions primarily through the Council on Foreign Relations, but only as the subsidiary of RIIA and through the Rockefeller Foundation which controls government functions, the educational establishments, the media, the religions and the state legislatures.

It is true that the American colonials have "free elections", in which they have the absolute right to vote for one of two opposing candidates, both of whom have been handpicked and financed by the Rockefeller syndicate . This touching evidence of "democracy" serves to convince most Americana that we are indeed a free people . We even have a cracked Liberty Bell in Philadelphia to prove it . American youth have been free since 1900 to be marched off to die in Hegelian wars in which both combatants received their instructions from the World Order . We are free to invest in a stock market which the daily quantity, price and value of the monetary unit is manipulated and controlled by a Federal Reserve System which is answerable only to the Bank of England . It has maintained its vaunted "independence" from our government's control, but this is the only independence it has ever had .

The realization that we do indeed live under the dictate of the "Rockefeller Syndicate" can well be the starting point of the long road back of a genuine struggle for American independence . In exposing "the Rockefellers" as agents of a foreign power, which is not merely a foreign power, but a genuine world government, we must realize that this is not merely a group dedicated to making money, but a group which committed to maintaining the power of a colonial form of government over the American people . Thus the ancient calumny of John D. Rockefeller as a man obsessed by greed (a category in which he has plenty of company) obscures the act that from the day the Rothschilds began to finance his march towards a total oil monopoly in the United States from their coffers at the National City Bank of Cleveland, Rockefeller was never an independent power, nor does any department of the Rockefeller Syndicate operate as an independent power . We know that the Cosa Nostra, or Mafia, with which the Syndicate is closely allied has somewhat autonomous power in the regions which have been assigned to that particular ";family" by the national directors, but this always implies that that family remains under total control and answerable for everything which occurs in its territory .

Similarly, the Rockefeller Syndicate operates under clearly defined spheres of influence . The "charitable" organizations, the business companies, and the policy groups always meld into a working operation, nor can any department of the Syndicate strike out on its own or formulate an independent policy, no matter what may be its justification.

The Rockefeller Syndicate operates under the control of the world financial structure, which means that on any given day, all of its assets could be rendered close to worthless by adroit financial manipulation .&nubs; This is the final control, which insures that no one can quit the organization . Not only would he be stripped of all assets, but he would be under contract for immediate assassination . Our Department of Justice is well aware that the only "terrorists" operating in the United States are the agents of the World Order, but they prudently avoid any mention of this fact .

The world financial structure, far from being an unknown or hidden organization, is actually well known and well defined . It consists of the major Swiss Banks ; the survivors of the old Venetian-Genoese banking axis ; the Big Five of the world grain trade ; the British combine, centered in the Bank of England and its chartered merchant banks, functioning trough the Rothschilds and the Oppenheimers and having absolute control over their Canadian colony through the Royal Bank of Canada and the Bank of Montreal, their Canadian lieutenants being the Bronfmans, Belzbergs, and other financial operators ; and the colonial banking structure in the United States, controlled by the Bank of England through the Federal Reserve System ; the Boston Brahmin families who made their fortunes in the opium trade, including the Delanos and others and the Rockefeller Syndicate, consisting of the Kissinger network headquartered in the Rockefeller Bank, Chase Manhattan Bank, American Express, the present form of the old Rothschild representatives in the United States, which includes Kuhn, Loeb Company and Lehman Brothers .

It is notable that the Rockefeller Syndicate is far down on the list of the world's financial structure . Why then is it of such importance ? Although it is not the crucial factor in financial decision in the Western Hemisphere, it is the actual working control mechanism of the American colony . The Rockefeller family themselves, like the Morgans, Schiffs and Warburgs, have faded into insignificance, but the mechanism created in their name roars along at full power, still maintaining all of he functions for which it was organized . Since he setup the Trilateral Commission, David Rockefeller has functioned as a sort of international courier for the World Order, principally concerned with delivering working instructions to the Communist bloc, either directly, in New York or by traveling to the area . Lawrence Rockefeller is active in the operation of the Medical Monopoly, but his principal interests are in operating various vacation spas in tropical areas . They are the two survivors of the "Fortunate Five," the five sons of John D. Rockefeller, Jr. and Abby Aldrich . John D. Rockefeller, Jr. . died in an institution in Tucson, Arizona and was hastily cremated . John D. Rockefeller III died in a mysterious accident on a New York Parkway near his home . Nelson Rockefeller, named after his grandfather, died in the arms of a TV journalist ; it was later revealed that he had also been in the arms of another TV journalist at the same time ; the death was hushed up for many hours . It is generally believed hat he ran afoul of his Colombian drug connection, the disagreement hardly being trivial ; it involved several billion dollars in drug profits which had not been properly apportioned . Winthrop Rockefeller died an alcoholic in the arms of his black boy friend. He had been interviewed on television by Harry Reasoner to explain his hasty move from New York to Arkansas . Winthrop leered that his black boy friend, an Army sergeant who apparently taught him the mysteries of drill, refused to live in New York . To celebrate this alliance, Winthrop Rockefeller gave magnificently to Negro causes, including the Urban League building on East 48th Street in New York . A plaque on the second floor notes that it was his gift; it might well have stated "From Hadrian to his Antinous".

We do not wish to imply that the Rockefellers no longer have influence, but that the major policy dictates of the Rockefeller Syndicate are handed down by other capos, of whom they continue to be a visible force. Through the person of David Rockefeller, the family is sometimes called "the first family of the Soviet Union." Only he and Dr. Armand Hammer, the moving force behind USTEC, have permanent permission to land their private planes at the Moscow Airport . Others would suffer the fate of KAL 007 .

Both the Rockefeller family fortune and the considerable portion set aside in the foundations of the Rockefeller Syndicate are effectively insulated against any type of government control . Fortune magazine noted August 4, 1986, that John D. Rockefeller, Jr. had created trusts in 1934 which now amounted to some $2.3 billion ; another $200 million had been set aside for the Abby Rockefeller branch . The five sons had trusts which in 1986 amount to $2.1 billion . These trusts had originally amounted to only $50 million each, showing the increase in their assets as well as inflation during the ensuing half century. Fortune estimated the 1986 total Rockefeller wealth as $3.5 billion, of which $900 million was in securities and real estate . They owned 45% of the Time Life Building ; Nelson Rockefeller's International Basic Economy Corporation had been sold to a British company in 1980 . For years, the Rockefeller family had deliberately kept the rents low in its major holding, the Rockefeller Center, a $1.6 billion investment yielding an annual return of 1% . This was a convenient maneuver, for tax purposes . Rockefeller Center recently went public issuing stock which was sold to public buyers . The Rockefellers are rumored to be liquidating their investments in the New York area, and reinvesting in the West, particularly in the area around Phoenix, Arizona . It is possible that they know something we don't .

However much of the Rockefeller wealth may be attributed to old John D.'s rapacity and ruthlessness, its origins are indubitably based in his initial financing from the National City Bank of Cleveland, which was identified in Congressional reports as one of the three Rothschild banks in the United States and by his later acceptance of the guidance of Jacob Schiff of Kuhn, Loeb & Company, who had been born in the Rothschild house in Frankfort and was now the principal Rothschild representative (but unknown as such to the public) in the United States .

With the seed money from the National City Bank of Cleveland, old John D. Rockefeller soon laid claim to the title of "the most ruthless American". It is more than likely that it was this quality which persuaded the Rothschilds to back him . Rockefeller realized early in the game that the oil refinery business, which could offer great profits in a short time, also was at the mercy of uncontrolled competition. His solution was a simple one—crush all competition . The famous Rockefeller dedication to total monopoly was simply a business decision . Rockefeller embarked on a campaign of coercing all competing oil refineries out of business . He attacked on a number of fronts, which is also a lesson to all would be entrepreneurs . First, he would send a minion, not known to be working for Rockefeller, with an offer to buy the competing refinery for a low price, but offering cash. If the offer was refused, the competitor would then come under attack from a competing refinery which greatly undercut his price . He might also suffer a sudden strike at his refinery, which would force him to shut down . Control of labor through unions has always been a basic Rockefeller technique . Like the Soviet Union, they seldom have labor trouble . If these techniques failed, Rockefeller would then be saddened by a reluctant decision to use violence; beating the rival workers as they went to and from their jobs, or burning or blowing up the competing refinery .

These techniques convinced the Rothschilds that they had found their man . They sent their personal representative, Jacob Schiff, to Cleveland to help Rockefeller plan further expansion . At this time, the Rothschilds controlled 95% of all railroad mileage in the United States, through the J.P. Morgan Company and Kuhn Loeb & Company according to official Department of Commerce figures for the year 1895 . J.P.Morgan mentions in his Who's Who listing that he controlled 50,000 miles of U.S. railways . Schiff worked out an elaborate rebate deal for Rockefeller, through a dummy corporation, South Improvement Company . These rebates ensured that no other oil company could survive in competition with the Rockefeller firm . The scheme was later exposed, but by that time Rockefeller had achieved a virtual monopoly of the oil business in the United States . The daughter of one of his victims, Ida Tarbell, whose father was ruined by Rockefeller's criminal operations, wrote the first major expose of the Standard Oil Trust She was promptly denounced as a "muckraker" by the poseur, Theodore Roosevelt, who claimed to be a "trust buster". In fact, he ensured the dominance of the Standard Oil Trust and other giant trusts .

During the next half century, John D. Rockefeller was routinely caricatured by socialist propagandists as the epitome of the ruthless capitalist . At the same time, he was the principal financier of the world Communist movement, through a firm called American International Company Despite the fact that the House of Rothschild had already achieved world control, the sound and fury was directed exclusively against its two principal, representatives, John D. Rockefeller and J.P. Morgan. One of the few revelations of the actual state of affairs appeared in Truth magazine, December 16, 1912, which pointed out that "Mr. Schiff is head of the great private banking house of Kuhn, Loeb &Company, which represents the Rothschild interests on this side of the Atlantic . He is described as a financial strategist and has been for years the financial minister of the great impersonal power known as Standard Oil." Note that this editor did not even mention the name of Rockefeller .

Because of these concealed factors, it was a relatively simple matter for the American public to accept the "fact" that the Rockefellers were the preeminent power in this country . This myth was actually clothed in the apparel of power, the Rockefeller Oil Trust becoming the "military-industrial complex" which assumed political control of the nation ; the Rockefeller Medical Monopoly attained control of the health care of the nation, and the Rockefeller Foundation, a web of affiliated tax exempt creations, effectively controlled the religious and educational life of the nation . The myth succeeded in its goal of camouflaging the hidden rulers, the Rothschilds .

After the present writer had been exposing this charade for some twenty-five years, a new myth began to be noised about in American conservative circles, effectively propagated by active double agents . This myth found a host of eager believers, because it heralded a growing crack in the monolithic power which had been oppressing all the peoples of the world . This new "revelation" was that a struggle to the death for world power had developed between the Rockefellers and the Rothschilds . According to this startling development, one faction or the other, depending on which agent you were listening to, had gained control of the Soviet Union and would use its power as the basis for achieving the overthrow of the other faction . The sudden death of several members of the Rockefeller family was cited as "proof" that such a struggle was taking place, although no Rothschild is known to have succumbed during this "war". This ignored the general understanding that Nelson Rockefeller had been "eliminated" as the result of losing deposit slips for several billion dollars of drugs from the Colombian cartel, or that the other Rockefeller deaths showed no trace of a "Rothschild connection".

Having maintained extensive files on this situation for several decades, the present writer could not believe anyone could be so misinformed as to think that "the Rockefellers" were now trying to seize power from the Rothschilds, at a time when the influence of members of the Rockefeller family was already in great decline, their family finances being handled by J. Richardson Dilworth, their legal affairs being handled by John J. McCloy, and other faithful retainers; none of these retainers would have been willing to engage in a genuine power struggle, as they were faceless managers who lived only for their weekly paycheck . They had no ambitions of their own . Nevertheless, many hopeful Americans grasped the will-o-the-wisp notion that the Rockefellers were now "good Americans" who were willing to risk all to overthrow the Rothschilds . Amazingly enough, this pernicious story persisted for almost a decade before being relegated to the curiosities of history .

Like J.P. Morgan, who had begun his commercial career by selling the U.S. Army some defective guns, the famous fall carbine affair, John D. Rockefeller also was a war profiteer during the Civil War ; he sold unstamped Harkness liquor to Federal troops at a high profit, gaining the initial capital to embark on his drive for monopoly . His interest in the oil business was a natural one; his father, William Rockefeller had been "in oil" for years . William Rockefeller had become an oil entrepreneur after salt wells at Tarentum, near Pittsburgh, were discovered in 1842 to be flowing with oil . The owners of the wells, Samuel L. Kier, began to bottle the oil and sell it for medicinal purposes . One of his earliest wholesalers was William Rockefeller. The "medicine" was originally labeled "Kier's Magic Oil". Rockefeller printed his own labels, using "Rock Oil" or "Seneca Oil," Seneca being the name of a well known Indian tribe . Rockefeller achieved his greatest notoriety and his greatest profits by advertising himself as "William Rockefeller, the Celebrated Cancer Specialist". It is understandable that his grandsons would become the controlling power behind the scenes of the world's most famous cancer treatment center and would direct government funds and charitable contributions to those areas which only benefit the Medical Monopoly . William Rockefeller spared no claim in his flamboyant career . He guaranteed "All Cases of Cancer Cured Unless They Are Too Far Gone." Such were the healing powers that he attributed to his magic cancer cure that he vas able to retail it for $25 a bottle, a sum then equivalent to two months' wages . The "cure" consisted of a few well known diuretics, which had been diluted by water . This carnival medicine show barker could hardly have envisioned that his descendants would control the greatest and the most profitable Medical Monopoly in recorded history .

As an itinerant "carnie," a traveling carnival peddler, William Rockefeller had chosen a career which interfered with developing a stable family life . His son John rarely saw him, a circumstance which has inspired some psychological analysts a conjecture that the absence of a father figure or parental love may have contributed to John D. Rockefeller's subsequent development as a money mad tyrant who plotted to maim, poison and kill millions of his fellow American during almost century of his monopolistic operations and whose influence, reaching up from the grave, remains the most dire and malignant presence in American life. This may have been a contributing factor—however, it is also possible that he was totally evil . It is hardly arguable that he is probably the most Satanic figure in American history .

~~~~~snipped~~~~~

They ALWAYS Put On A Good Show For You 21.Jun.2004 10:42

The Realist

Days of Deceit
Sept. 11, 2001 and Dec. 7, 1941
by Bill Walker
 http://freedom.orlingrabbe.com/lfetimes/days_of_deceit.htm
Those of us interested in building a free society have to face certain inconvenient facts about human psychology. One of the most inconvenient is that the majority of people are conspiracy theorists. Most people believe that there is a massive conspiracy by the rich and powerful to help and protect the average citizen.

There is reason to believe in a genetic basis for the attractiveness of this belief: humans are genetically adapted to live in small tribal bands. In hunter-gatherer bands, everyone is related and obedience to the tribal leaders is crucial. In a small tribal band, the tribal leaders have genetic incentives to conserve the lives of their relatives/followers. In order to outcompete and genetically dominate neighboring bands, it is essential that all members of the tribe follow the call to war. Like bees responding to attack pheromones, primitive Homo sapiens respond to tribal leaders screaming about outside threats by uniting to kill the outsiders.

None of our genetic predispositions prepare us for life in modern nation-states with hundreds of millions of people. To live in a free society it is necessary to think for ourselves... something that requires a lot of effort and makes us feel uncomfortable. It's a lot easier to just fall into the old tribal ways of thinking, and follow people who look authoritative and talk loudly. So the majority of mankind follow the "tribal leaders" that they see on TV, when the "leaders" call them to war.

The "leaders" are tribal too, but in a different way. They see the great mass of humanity not as their tribe, but as their flocks, to be driven and slaughtered for the profit of their personal tribe. Even the vegetarian leaders, like Hitler, are willing to consume their followers' lives.

The antidote to TV-generated "leaders" is knowledge of history. People with a grasp of history can use the knowledge of how rulers deceived people in the past to anticipate the lies of the future. Historical knowledge is not difficult to come by... except perhaps in public schools, where it is most critical. But those of us not trapped in the educational gulag have no excuse for not knowing a little about the past. Especially when we have well-researched works such as Robert Stinnett's Day Of Deceit available at our local libraries.

There was suspicion from the beginning that Roosevelt deliberately pushed the Japanese military leaders into attacking Pearl Harbor so that he could get the war he wanted: the war to expand government in spite of the economic failures of the increasingly unpopular New Deal. It isn't taught in public school histories, but people were getting tired of the permanent Depression by 1940. Only the gathering threat of foreign war distracted the voters enough to keep Roosevelt in office in 1940. Even with the political boost of the War, the Democrats lost the House anyway in 1948.

There have been nine Congressional investigations into Pearl Harbor, the last by Strom Thurmond in 1995. But none of these investigations succeeded in the elementary step of calling the Navy radio intercept operators to testify. Though the Congress summoned them more than once, the Navy has stonewalled all these years, claiming "national security" reasons right up through 1995... as though the pre-digital-computer encryption schemes of 1940 were of any relevance in the 1990s. The only "security" provided by 50-year-old lies is security for the bureaucracies that continue to lie to us today.

Stinnett interviewed some of these Navy intercept personnel, as well as making numerous FOIA requests. Many of his requests were denied for "security" reasons, but he has assembled enough documentary and interview evidence to draw a clear picture of Roosevelt's plan to make Americans fight a World War on two fronts.

The Evidence Presented by Stinnet

The book is not that long, and it's a good read. So I won't try to cover every detail that Stinnett dug up. His main points are:

There was an "8-action plan" for forcing the Japanese into war. Among the actions that were carried out were incursions into Japanese territorial waters around the Japanese home islands by American cruisers, conspiracy with the Dutch and English to cut off Japanese oil, and finally a total trade embargo. Keeping the main body of the fleet in Pearl Harbor was part of the plan. (Of course in 1940 Roosevelt was simultaneously fighting an illegal undeclared war against the Nazi submarine fleet, so the "8-action plan" was only part of the overall strategy.)

The US had broken the Japanese Navy encryption well before Pearl Harbor (the US Navy has lied about this for decades). Japanese commanders trusted their cryptography, and Roosevelt had complete information of their plans and movements. These radio intercepts were made from stations in Hawaii and Corregidor, but the crucial ones were kept from Admiral Kimmel at Pearl Harbor.

The decrypted intercepts weren't even necessary. Both military and civilian Japanese ships in the attack carrier groups broke radio silence and were tracked across the Pacific by radio DF stations. Roosevelt knew exactly where the Japanese were. Incredibly, the US even issued orders diverting merchant shipping out of the North Pacific to give the Japanese a clear path.

Of course, real conspiracies aren't picture-perfect. The American destroyer Ward sank a Japanese submarine in the harbor entrance one hour and seven minutes before the first bombers arrived. Had the commander of the Ward insisted on raising the alarm instead of tamely watching as the Pearl command staff did nothing (say, by firing his five-inch guns into the harbor), the Japanese attack would have arrived over ships with manned AA guns and faced hundreds of combat aircraft. Naturally the Japanese would still have done major damage, but US casualties would have been much lighter and Japanese losses higher. Roosevelt's war could have been severely shortened.

In the actual event, however, Roosevelt's plan for a long war worked out well. Japanese forces were allowed to run rampant everywhere in the Pacific. Even the US bases in the Philippines lost their aircraft to long-range attacks, many hours after Pearl Harbor. General MacArthur was rewarded for this catastrophic defeat with command of half the Pacific war.

Conversely, the out-of-the-loop admiral at Pearl Harbor, Kimmel, was made the scapegoat for the military disaster. His descendants are still trying to clear his name, fighting implacable Navy opposition and cover-ups. Stinnett shows that Kimmel gave orders for reconnaissance patrols and fleet movements that would have countered the Japanese attacks. Kimmel was repeatedly overruled from Washington, and was blamed for the effects of the orders that he followed. Kimmel's fate is a useful lesson for those who think they can prosper by "just following orders" from those who look at humans as expendable livestock.

Further Lessons from Pearl Harbor

What other lessons can we draw from Pearl Harbor? Mainly, that government is very effective at lying, because ordinary people willingly cooperate with lies from "tribal leaders". Stinnett didn't know it at the time, but he was in a great position during WWII to observe the personality of political liars. He served in the Navy from 1942 to 1946 under the man who would become George Bush the First. Yet even this historian tries to make excuses for those who lead our tribe:

"As heinous as it seems to families and veterans of World War II, of which the author is one, the Pearl Harbor attack was, from the White House perspective, something that had to be endured in order to stop a greater evil-the Nazi invaders in Europe who had begun the Holocaust and were poised to invade England. There could be disagreement on whether the plan adopted was the right way to stop Hitler, but Roosevelt faced a terrible dilemma."

Stopping the Holocaust would indeed have been a good thing. Roosevelt did nothing of the kind; there were no demands that the Nazis quit executing Jews, no missions to arm Jews or destroy death camps. Nor was there any mention of deals to spare the civilian populations in Roosevelt's "Unconditional Surrender" announcement, which kept the Germans fighting and killing Jews long after hope of victory had gone. In fact, even before the war America forcibly turned back ships full of Jews who had escaped Germany, dooming them to death. Roosevelt actually knew about the Holocaust quite early, but kept quiet for reasons of short-term political convenience. Neither Churchill (because of Palestine), nor Stalin, wanted to save the Jewish population. A few European Jews survived the Holocaust only because Patton refused to follow the "broad-front" policy whenever he could get away with it, and shortened the war for his own personal glory.

The War to Preserve Communism

As for stopping the invasion of England, starting a two-front war with Japan was arguably one of the few ways to make such an invasion possible in 1941 (military historians mostly agree that an invasion of England could only have worked in 1940, before arms shipments from the US rearmed the defeated BEF). In any case, presenting America's involvement in WWII as a philanthropic affair ignores the facts. The main foreign effects of our involvement were to take Eastern Europe from Hitler and give it to Stalin, and to take China from the Japanese and give it to Mao. The domestic effects of WWII were to build the permanent "security state" (yet somehow without ever building any actual security for the civilian population, e.g. no civil defense).

Interventionists cannot point to World War II as an example of preserving freedom through total war; arguably, WWII was the War To Preserve Communism. War between states is rarely philanthropic, and World War II was no exception. I believe there may be ways to restrain dictators, but fire-bomb and nuclear bombing campaigns against their civilian subjects are not among the most efficient methods of promoting freedom.

Regardless of one's opinion as to whether America should be a giant Switzerland, expanding its lebensraum only into space and the oceans, or Roman Empire: The Sequel, the Pearl Harbor story is valuable for what it tells us about how official "history" is fabricated. If you want to understand the principles behind the creation of the official version of 9-11-01, study 12-7-41... or wait 50 more years for historians to dig out the truth behind Bush's quest to create a new World War.

Good Old Fred 25.Jun.2004 00:28

The Realist

This Ain't Fifth-Century Athens
Curmudgeonly Reflections On Democracy
 http://www.fredoneverything.net/ThisWeek'sFred.shtml
Tuesday, June 22, 2004

Autumn looms and presidential elections will soon roll around, like droppings pushed by dung beetles. We will be exhorted to vote. Better advice would be not to vote. The proper response toward what we occasionally imagine to be democracy, methinks, is to retain one's self-respect by not participating in it.

Voting in particular is an embarrassment, being a public display of weak character and low intelligence. Let us face the truth: Democracy, like spitting in public or the Roman games, is the proper activity of the lower intellectual and moral classes. It amounts to collusion in one's own suckering.

The United States of course is not a democracy but a wonderfully crafted pretense. We have separated the results of elections from the formulation of policy. It is a neat trick: Voting distracts the rabble without disturbing the government. You cannot possibly—can you?—believe that your vote will change anything of importance? That it will end the flood of semi-literate Mexican proletarians who join our own? Divert the schools from their ghettoish apotheosis of the mentally lame and halt? Cause governmental behavior to rely on merit instead of race, creed, color, sex, and national origin?

No. These things are determined remotely by lobbies, by criminals, and by forces that have no name. If you are lucky, you may be able to change parking regulations.

Given that democracy is pointless, and participation in it a sign of a weak mind, what is the wisest attitude toward the government?

That of a tick toward a cow. Nothing else makes sense. The central question of American government is not what mountebank shall be president or what eructations of mendacity he may devise. The question, almost the only question, is whether the government can get more from you than you can get from it. One picks pockets, or one's pockets are picked.

The clever or well represented—the racial lobbies, defense industry, teachers unions, feminists, AIPAC, big pharma, oil, corporations—suck money from the government. In turn the government gnaws like a hagfish at the entrails of middle-class people moldering in cubicles. These spend their lives in jobs they hate to buy things they don't want, such as half-million-dollar houses in the suburbs, so as to pay taxes. Elections give them a sense of having a stake in their flensing: The government is their hagfish.

Clearly taking part in this is unwise. What then do you do?

First, and most important, stop regarding yourself as part of government. Government doesn't concern itself with you; why should you concern yourself with it? The change of attitude provides both relaxation and perspective.

Next, avoid governmental impositions. There are many. Military service is the worst of them. Don't go. A little man in Washington, whom you have never met and wouldn't talk to over a back fence, tells you to kill people who have done nothing to you in a foreign country you may never have heard of. Does this seem reasonable?

Finally, cultivate apathy, which is cheaper than Prozac and works better. You do not worry about what you do not care about. I do not propose a depressed scowl at life, but merely a wholesome indifference toward those forces malign and otherwise over which you can have no influence.

Better yet, enjoy the onrushing atrophy. Is the United States going to hell, western civilization being subverted, knaves scuttling like fetid crabs through the corridors of power and nitwits ravaging the schools in the manner of monkeys in a fruit store? (Yes, actually.) Relish it for the splendid historical theater that it is. A better spectacle there cannot be.

I say this seriously. If you regard yourself as audience rather than participant, the accelerating collapse becomes entertainment. You read each morning's headlines with zest to see what new and preposterous clownishness erupts from Washington. It is high comedy. Just now Mr. Bush wants to tighten the embargo on Cuba because of its violations of human rights; meanwhile Mr. Bush is running a torture camp at Guantanamo. We have a war on poverty that perpetuates poverty, a war on drugs that guarantees availability by keeping prices up.

I doubt that Mark Twain could make such things up.

A huge gap separates those who, on the one hand, eat their souls up over things they can't change, and those who, on the other, focus on their friends, family, children. You probably have a sense of what is right, wrong, moral, decent, and just. To these, I say, you owe allegiance. To nothing else.

A wholesome apathy does not mean giving up a love of music or travel or dogs or books or contemplation of starry skies should the pollution clear momentarily. Nor does it mean lack of concern for those around you. It does mean, or more correctly require, moral self-determination insofar as it is possible.

The wise recognize that they are insignificant atoms and set their course accordingly. Yes, in a small town enjoying sovereignty over its institutions, participation might make sense. You might expect to have an influence over matters material to you. If you wanted the high school to offer advanced classes in mathematics for your advanced child, you would stand a reasonable chance of persuading the school board, and finding a volunteer teacher if need be.

But today you are merely a minor source of taxes. It is reasonable therefore to regard governments not as enemies—they are larger than you are and will usually win—but as intricate puzzles. If the government won't school your children, do you home-school? Move to France? Can you qualify for some form of welfare and have the government support you instead of you, it? Are laws more to your liking in Thailand?

To what, then, you might ask, does one owe allegiance? A better question might be: Why should one owe allegiance to any distant group beyond one's influence? Yes, I know: The dog-pack instinct dominates human behavior. It is why we have wars and teen-age gangs and attach ourselves furiously to football teams. Patriotism, meaning an irrational attachment to whatever country we were born in, comes naturally. But does it come reasonably? To use the tired but effective example, should you be loyal to your country's government if it begins operating torture camps in, say, Bergen-Belsen or Treblinka or, once more, Guantanamo?

Or should you do what you believe to be right, decline to be herded like cattle, and live decently in the interstices of things? These at least are choices not as humiliating as voting. Those who wash regularly should not stoop to democracy.

Nice New Ford Fondation / Democracy Now Grant for 2004 : ) 25.Jun.2004 11:14

Stovepipe

Here is 2004

 http://www.fordfound.org/grants_db/view_grant_detail.cfm?grant_id=168613



Here is Deep Dish 2002

 http://www.fordfound.org/grants_db/view_grant_detail.cfm?grant_id=164117

Ford Foundation has big time CIA ties. Amy is out there complaining about "corporate media" when Democracy Now has been bought and paid for. What the directives of those two grants really mean is 1)Don't mention the real connections between corporate America and the alternative left 2)NEVER INCORPORATE the truth about 9/11 in your future broadcasts.

They Just Cant Let Me Have Last Word 25.Jun.2004 19:10

The Realist

See how they still keep coming back.
It festers in their mind that I say, whatever conspiracy you uncover, it means nothing in the big scheme of things.
Focusing on the microscopic case of a single Amy Goodman radio show. Give me a break.
Yeah, we'll battle it out here on the internet and fix things after all, you guys.
My conspiracy is more accurate than yours.
My conspiracy has more inside info than yours.
But nobody is listening.
Nobody.
100 people?? 200 people???
2 or 3 in this thread?
The one thing I have learned over the years is that "democracy" is a total failure for human's arranging their affairs....
52% vs. 48% in an election. What good is that?
If they take away the 1st 2nd 4th and 5th amendments, who do you sue? Where do you go? Qatar?? Zimbavwe??
All governments always tend towards totalitarianism.
All Corporations always tend towards monopoly.
Corporations combined with Gov'ts always tend towards Fascism.
You WILL NOT overthow the current crime cabal. If you do, they will install another. They have all the money in the world. Literally.
It is really too much trouble to be informed for the population at large, so they aren't. It's too much to ask of them. It's not normal to be a political geek. It's unnatural.


Stop the Amy Goodman nonsense. Dont fool yourself. Wake up. Be a mature adult.

==============================


On January 13, 1489 Rabbi Chemor of Arles, France wrote the Grand Sanhedrin because the people of Arles threatened the synagogues. The advice of the Grand Satraps and Rabbis were:
1) "As for what you (Jews) say that the King of France obliges you to become Christians: do it (outwardly become Christians), since you cannot do otherwise, but let the law (Talmud) be kept in your hearts.
2) As for what you (Jews) say about the command to despoil you of your goods: make your sons merchants, that little by little they (your sons) may despoil the Christians of theirs.
3) As for what you (Jews) say about their making attempts on your lives: make your sons doctors and apothecaries, then they (your sons) may take away Christians' lives.
4) As for what you (Jews) say of their destroying your synagogues: make your sons cannons and clerics in order that they (your sons) may destroy their (Christian's) churches.
5) As for the many other vexations you (Jews) complain of: arrange that your sons become advocates and lawyers, see that they always mix themselves up with the affairs of State (civil government), in order that by putting Christians under your yoke, you may dominate the world and be avenged on them.
6) Do not swerve from this order that we give you because you will find by experience that, humiliated as you are, you will reach the actuality of power (over Christians)
7) "As for what you (Jews) say that the King of France obliges you to become Christians: do it (outwardly become Christians), since you cannot do otherwise, but let the law (Talmud) be kept in your hearts.
8) As for what you (Jews) say about the command to despoil you of your goods: make your sons merchants, that little by little they (your sons) may despoil the Christians of theirs.
9) As for what you (Jews) say about their making attempts on your lives: make your sons doctors and apothecaries, then they (your sons) may take away Christians' lives.
10) As for what you (Jews) say of their destroying your synagogues: make your sons cannons and clerics in order that they (your sons) may destroy their (Christian's) churches.
11) As for the many other vexations you (Jews) complain of: arrange that your sons become advocates and lawyers, see that they always mix themselves up with the affairs of State (civil government), in order that by putting Christians under your yoke, you may dominate the world and be avenged on them.
12) Do not swerve from this order that we give you because you will find by experience that, humiliated as you are, you will reach the actuality of power (over Christians)
Signed V.S.S.V.F.F.Prince of the Jews, 21st Caslu (November), 1489.
This letter was reprinted in Revue des estudes Juives Paris France 1889 [ The newspaper, Revue des estudes Juives, was financed by James de Rothschild (Jakob Rothschild) a Jew, who managed the Paris branch of his father's European banking empire.]

You Are All Useless Eaters - As you will Soon Find Out 25.Jun.2004 19:33

The Realist

Resistance is futile

Quote:
Testimony of an Eyewitness

[zapruder] In Dallas Texas on November 22, 1963, two women, Jean Hill and Mary Moorman, were standing on the south side of Elm Street in Dealy Plaza, as Kennedy's motorcade passed. They were two of the closest eyewitnesses to President Kennedy when he was struck with the fatal head shot. Jean Hill would later be questioned by Warren Commission attorney Arlen Specter. Hill recalled her encounter with Specter with journalist/author Jim Marrs:

"The FBI took me to Parkland Hospital. I had no idea what I was doing there. They escorted me through a labyrinth of corridors and up to one of the top floors of Parkland. I didn't know where we were. They took me into this little room where I met Arlen Specter. He talked to me for a few minutes, trying to act real friendly, then this woman, a stenographer, came in and sat behind me. He had told me that this interview would be confidential, then I looked around and this woman was taking notes. I reminded him that the discussion was to be private and he told the woman to put down her notebook, which she did. But when I looked around again she was writing. I got mad and told Specter, 'You lied to me. I want this over.' He asked me why I wouldn't come to Washington, and I said, 'Because I want to stay alive.' He asked why I would think that I was in danger and I replied, 'Well, if they can kill the President, they can certainly get me!' He replied that they already had the man that did it and I told him, 'No, you don't!'

He kept trying to get me to change my story, particularly regarding the number of shots. He said I had been told how many shots there were and I figured he was talking about what the Secret Service told me right after the assassination. His inflection and attitude was that I knew what I was supposed to be saying, why wouldn't I just say it. I asked him, 'Look, do you want the truth or just what you want me to say?' He said he wanted the truth, so I said, 'The truth is that I heard between four and six shots.' I told him, 'I'm not going to lie for you.' So he starts talking off the record. He told me about my life, my family, and even mentioned that my marriage was in trouble. I said, 'What's the point of interviewing me if you already know everything about me?' He got angrier and finally told me, 'Look, we can even make you look as crazy as Marguerite Oswald and everybody knows how crazy she is. We could have you put in a mental institution if you don't cooperate with us.' I knew he was trying to intimidate me....

He finally gave me his word that the interview would not be published unless I approved what was written. But they never gave me the chance to read it or approve it. When I finally read my testimony as published by the Warren Commission, I knew it was a fabrication from the first line. After that ordeal at Parkland Hospital, they wrote that my deposition was taken at the U.S. attorney's office in the Post Office Building."

Zapruder Is Not The Only Film 26.Jun.2004 09:07

The Realist

I am going to try my hardest here to bring you dreamers out of your stupor.
I want you to go to  http://www.warrencommission.com
I want you to hit the play arrow.
I wnt you to see JFK holding his right neck from the paralyzing dart fired at him by TUM (The Umbrella Man)
Hit the play arrow again and again
Notice how JFK and Conally in front seat both get hit at virtually the same moment.
Notice how Kennedy's head reacts to hit from straight on frontal - when Oswald was supposedly 6 floors up in rear.
Notice on next page how Dan Rather lies blatantly to the American Public.
Did you know Rather was at Dealy plaza that day on the hill underneath the Overpass?? Saw The whole thing
And that Rather has been paid the equiv of $5 million a year since then up to the present?
Even tho he is a hideous news anchor.

41 years and nothing has changed
Did you even know the "Paschall" tape of JFK was released in 1995??
168 at Oklahoma.
103 at Waco
2752 at WTC
134 at Pentagon
199 in planes??
Remember that footage above. Thats who you are dealing with.
Can you be that vicious? That cold?
No?
Then you cant beat them.
Go to the beach and enjoy yourself.

compendium of just that. 26.Jun.2004 22:50

klaatu

Thought I'd drop in and see how the project was going.

Wow this really is going to be the last page on the net.

Focusing on the little ironies and conspiratorial facts leads down a path to heavier truths so it's not to be maligned.
Hell this page is becoming a compendium of just that.
Realist and others, there are a thousand forums out there, of varied utility. FWIW I hang at this one.

 link to hraunfjord.com

Like The Moth To The Flame 27.Jun.2004 00:14

The Realist

What happened - your ant hills got boring?
The internet is not a godsend for patriots, it's trap to keep your mind occupied with trivia.
Very seductive thing - one mind talking directly to another non verbally.

Let me tell you a story about a REAL conspiracy researcher, not the wanna be pussy retards that post on the internet.
His name was Theodore Charach. He became obsessed with the RFK assassination, Thane Eugene Caesar, and the "second gun". You see, Mr Caesar carried an exact duplicate Iver Johnson 9 shot .22LR piece of crap revolver that Sirhan Sirhan used in the Pantry on that fateful evening. Mr. Charach spent ten years of his life and $250,000 of HIS money to track down, dredge the Ark. swamp where it was thrown and recover it. He wanted a ballistic test of the bullet behind RFK's ear, and one shot from Caesars gun. (Heh Heh) You know, like the King family wanting a test of the never fired Rem. 760 30-06 pump rifle that supposedly killed MLK. As it turns out, there were, if you can believe it, two more IJ's at the pantry. Amazing co-incidence.
So Ted called a press conference and had an armed guard bring in the gun in a locked briefcase. Only one media showed up - The Probe - a small bi monthly conspiracy paper.
Subsequently, Mr. C made a video of all he had learned (which I have).
He died a broken man a few years ago, and all of his lifes work went up for auction.
You see, even tho he was a great patriot, a remarkable man, he did not really understand how the system works.
And that nobody really cares.
He was trying to enlighten people who are clinically dead.

 http://www.webcom.com/ctka/pr795-2gun.html
 http://www.patshannan.bizland.com/assassinationsrobertkennedyparttwo.html
 link to www.pbagalleries.com

And Gort - please dont try to turn this into a two man chat room.
I'm not looking for pen pals.

I am Captain Chaos, messenger of doom!!!!

Lyndon Baines Johnson - Our Third Jewish President 27.Jun.2004 00:31

The Realist

Chapter 9: Johnson's Hidden Loyalties
 http://www.jfkmontreal.com/johnson%27s_hidden_loyalties.htm#Secret%20Ethnicity
Secret Ethnicity

As previously stated, the Johnson administration implemented a dramatic shift in US-Middle East policy. Every president after Johnson has totally capitulated to Israel and ignored the plight of Palestinians. But Johnson marked the turning point. The reason he was so loyal to Israel lies within his own ethnicity. It appears that he and his wife were secretly Jewish. To many, this may seem laughable at first, but in reality Jews were an integral part of Texas history throughout the nineteenth century.1 Jacob and Phineas De Cordova sold land and developed Waco. Simon Mussina founded Brownsville in 1848. Michael Seeligson was elected mayor of Galveston in 1853. Morris Lasker was elected to the state Senate in 1895.2 The list goes on.

The first Jewish settlers of note in Texas were Samuel Issacks (1821) followed by N. Adolphus Sterne (1826).3 By 1838, Jews were living in Galveston, San Antonio, Velasco, Bolivar, Nacogdoches, and Goliad.4 In the early part of the twentieth century, a large of number of Russian Jews migrated to Texas to escape persecution from the Russian Czar. Between 1900 and 1920, the Jewish population in Texas grew from 15,000 to 30,000. Major cities, Dallas, Houston, Fort Worth, and San Antonio, experienced enormous growth in Jewish populations.5 The overall number of Jews in Texas has steadily increased ever since. After World War II, the abundance of Jewish residents grew from an estimated 50,000 in 1945 to 71,000 in the mid-1970s and 92,000 in 1988.6

Before 1821, Texas was still a Spanish colony where only Catholics could take up residence. Jews who openly acknowledged their ethnicity could not legally live there.7 Originally, Jews migrated to Texas to seek fortune and freedom. The earliest Jews, who arrived with the conquistadors, came from Sephardic (Spanish-North African-Israel) communities.8 After the Mexican period, Jewry in Texas was essentially populated by immigrants from Germany, eastern Europe, and the Americas.9

Lyndon Johnson's maternal ancestors, the Huffmans, apparently migrated to Frederick, Maryland from Germany sometime in the mid-eighteenth century. Later they moved to Bourbon, Kentucky and eventually settled in Texas in the mid-to-late nineteenth century.10

According to Jewish law, if a person's mother is Jewish, then that person is automatically Jewish, regardless of the father's ethnicity or religion. The facts indicate that both of Lyndon Johnson's great-grandparents, on the maternal side, were Jewish. These were the grandparents of Lyndon's mother, Rebecca Baines.11 Their names were John S. Huffman and Mary Elizabeth Perrin.12 John Huffman's mother was Suzanne Ament, a common Jewish name. Perrin is also a common Jewish name.

Huffman and Perrin had a daughter, Ruth Ament Huffman,13 who married Joseph Baines14 and together they had a daughter, Rebekah Baines,15 Lyndon Johnson's mother. The line of Jewish mothers can be traced back three generations in Lyndon Johnson's family tree. There is little doubt that he was Jewish.

To recap, the following is Lyndon Johnson's maternal family tree:

* Mother: Rebekah Baines (married Sam Johnson, Lyndon's father)
* Maternal grandparents: Ruth Ament Huffman and Joseph Baines
* Maternal great-grandparents (parents of Ruth Huffman): Mary Elizabeth Perrin and John S. Huffman, III
* Maternal great-great grandparents (parents of Mary Perrin): Dicea Kerby and William Perrin16 (Footnote 20)
* Maternal great-great grandparents (parents of John Huffman, III): Suzanne Ament and John S. Huffman, II17
* Maternal great-great-great grandparents (parents of John Huffman, II): Cathrine Lyter and John Huffman18

As previously stated, many Jews migrated to Texas from Germany. A Johnson family friend, Cynthia Crider, observed that Lyndon's mother, Rebekah Baines (Johnson), often boasted of her Baines ancestry, but rarely mentioned the maternal side, the Huffmans. In fact, Crider recalled that Lyndon's father, Sam Johnson, used to tease his wife occasionally about her German heritage. When she would get stubborn about something, Sam would say, "That's your German blood again. German blood! Look at your brother's name. Huffman! Probably was Hoffmann once-in Berlin." Rebekah would respond, "Sam, you know it's Holland Dutch."19

As far as I can determine, Rebekah's German ancestors, the Huffmans, came to America in the mid-1700s and had a son, John Huffman, in about 1767 in Frederick, Maryland. I cannot find records of John Huffman's parents. They were probably German immigrants. Huffman married Catherine Lyter in 1790 in Frederick, Maryland.20 At some point Huffman and Lyter moved to Bourbon, Kentucky and had a son, John Huffman, II, who married Suzanne Ament. Huffman, II and Ament had a son, John S. Huffman, III, born on May 7, 1824 in Bourbon, Kentucky; and died on June 22, 1865 in Collin, Texas. John Huffman, III was Rebekah's great-grandfather. He married Mary Elizabeth Perrin. Huffman and Perrin had a daughter, Ruth Ament Huffman, who married Joseph Baines. Huffman and Baines were Rebekah's parents, Lyndon's grandparents.

etc.....

FWIW 27.Jun.2004 07:13

klaatu

Aye Capitain Chaos.
The ants are indeed boring. So much activity resulting in a pile of dirt. However I have arranged for a war between different piles of ants. This is unbelievably easy. First you introduce foreign ants into a pile, cause a little mini 9-11 and behold, Armageddon. I have tuned my TV into an ant farm and can watch this stuff 24/7 in the comfort of my bunker.

Why would I want to turn this into a chat room? Maybe your the one running off posters with your superiority.

FWIW, pretty ugly article, interesting anyway.  http://www.exile.ru/178/jew_hunter.html

Dont Go Away Mad - Just Go Away 27.Jun.2004 10:01

The Realist

You say "FWIW" I hang out here.
But this is a month old thread, there are at least 40 newer posts just in "911/conspiracy" including another Amy Goodman thread.
Lots of places to hang out here besides this one.
So even tho you said you were done, you came back anyway.
You came back here, specifically here in fact.
I tell you dont trade links on the internet, its a stupid waste, yet you come back everytime with more links - like you are gonna show me something I am not aware of.
Preaching to the choir.
You even throw in a snide remark this time aimed at me.
Once again (and again, and again) anger at the message, so more anger at the messenger.
Yes I AM TRYING TO RUN PEOPLE OFF THIS THREAD - to show them the fultility of their effort.
Which is a waste of time - even with you.
No matter how many posts, how much reality I try to impose, you can'r give up your internet crutch.
This is my endlessly repeated mantra - you people cant deal with reality.
YOU CANNOT CHANGE THE CURRENT COURSE OF THE U.S. IT IS SET IN STONE. GAME OVER. YOU LOSE.
YOUR MIND RECOILS AT THIS FACT!!!!!! REJECTS IT OUTRIGHT.

Heres what you have to look foward to:
NO JOBS
MEXICAN MAJORITY
NO SOCIAL SECURITY
NO PENSIONS
NO HEALTH CARE
NO ACCESS TO BANK ACCOUNT
MARTIAL LAW
UN TROOPS
ECONOMIC COLLAPSE
BIOMETRIC ID CARDS
etc.

Thats why I wasted my valuable time here, I wanted a living record of my correct evaluation of the American mind, a place I could send doubters to show them what immature children populate this country.

The truth is Mr. "Klaatu", you are addicted to posting on the web.
The fact you came back prooves it beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Statistically speaking, you have 77 years of experiencing life on this planet.
Every minute on the World Wide Web is a theft of that gift.
You are a pathetic loser, a lonely person reaching out for any scrap of social contact you can find. Any normal person with wife and children would not have hours to spend posting on conspiracy sites.
You are a freaks, thats why no one listens to conspiracy nuts.

And no, I'm not gonna get in a pissing match with you. (You started it)
If I hurt your wittle feelings when I asked you why you came back - too bad.
Your little nastiness was, either deliberately, or subconsciously an attempt to engage me in verbal intercourse.
Like I said, I'm not here to waste time, just to prove a point to any objective observer.

Now I'm going to ruin your whole day - this is my last post, fer sure.
Go argue about WTC demolition with your other internet losers.

Man I just cant wait to see those blue helmets pushing you guys down the street with their assault rifles stuck in your rectum. (Captain Chaos rubs his hands gleefully)



 http://www.strike-the-root.com/4/moorman/moorman8.html

The Choice of a New Generation

by David C. Moorman

It's coming to a community near you, much like the aplomb and excitement one experiences with a Hollywood summer blockbuster. But this be a blockbuster of a different sort. This is a real block buster. The blocks to be busted are to be you, the youth of your local community and mine. The sledgehammer doing the busting? The Universal National Service Act. Welcome to how to build a Gulag Nation 101.

The bill itself and the language contained therein are easy to understand. All too easy, even for me. Section Two clearly states: "a) OBLIGATION FOR YOUNG PERSONS - It is the obligation of every citizen of the United States, and every other person residing in the United States, who is between the ages of 18 and 26 to perform a period of national service as prescribed in this Act unless exempted under the provisions of this Act." The italics are mine. Every, not much thought required here, means all. I smell a New World order in the air, don't you?

What the bill really says then is that ALL people within the borders of the united States between aged 18 to 26 WILL, corporate citizen or not, perform a period of military or national service. Least that's my guess.

You have three choices. And we love freedom of choice! You will be conscripted and you will serve, or you will go to jail, or you will move. The choices here then are well defined. You are however, no matter what, damned if you do and damned if you don't. Some choices. Either accept involuntary servitude as a military or community slave, doing as you're told or accept involuntary servitude as a prisoner in a corporate jail, doing as you're told, or move, which in this case means go live someplace else. Sounds like the youth of Amerika have clear choices to me. You have the freedom to choose either door number 1, door number 2 or door number 3. No matter, big, huge pile of shit awaits behind one of those doors.

Hopefully to the sound and reasoned youngsters reading this, the choices listed herein should dispel any and all notions that you live in a free society. You don't, and as another matter of fact, never have. Neither have I.

Scoff at that now if you must, and in the meantime download all the MP3's you want, for now. In just a scant year or two, you won't be able to take a piss without being told when, where and how! Or which dissidents to round up and ship off to Mississippi. Or which group of people you are ordered to fire upon. Your liberty, thanks to your parents, grandparents, great-grandparents who were asleep at the wheel of the charge they were given, has been rounded up too, exhausted, used up and wasted away, to be swept up and dumped unceremoniously into the ash can of history. Freedom in the united States means obviously you do have a choice. Do or don't and accept the consequences either way. Pardon the pun, but you'll have to accept the ramifications, 'cause you're f*cked any way you go! Get it, ram-ifcations? You will either be in the military killing whoever you're told, in the national service corps arresting and jailing your fellow countrymen, in jail 'cause you got caught while on the run, and you reject slavery, and now as a result are very near to receiving your first prison communion or your first hot beef injection compliments of your captors, or you are in Mexico and are lucky 'cause you haven't got caught yet.

Please, whatever you do, do not accept jail as an option. Being that you are f*cked no matter which way you choose, and having seen HBO's OZ and the movie the Shawshank Redemption, there is absolutely no reason to subject your anus to additional violation. Look, you kids are already fucked, so there is no reason to compound that with actual forced rape by your captors. The pictures from Abu Grahib say enough. Stay out of jail. Don't get caught!

I suggest you move, or run, as some of the more esteemed crew-cutted of our society might call it. If you move, or run as some would call it, keep in mind you will become a fugitive. If you get caught, you'll be f*cked, figuratively and literally. Those who willingly get f*cked . . . err, serve, will be, ironically, the ones to come after you. I'm not sure what quality of life one can have constantly looking over their shoulder, so moving is a tough call. But it has to be a damn sight better than willingly submitting to slavery. I seriously doubt that you will be allowed to move back home one day like the people that moved to Canada during the Vietnam Conflict were. You won't be welcomed back. The War on Terror is different than a war on gooks. In the War on Terror, everything is a threat, including that nice neighbor lady down the street who still gave you cookies even after you carelessly broke her kitchen window with your baseball. You gonna point your weapon at her, big man? The war on gooks was simply that, kill the gooks, most for no reason. You may never be forgiven for abandoning your country in a time of such need. We all know Al-Qaeda is brimming with feeble, blue-haired terrorists. My soon-to-be 16-year old has already decided he's moving.

If you serve when drafted next year, keep this thought close in your heart and in your mind. Patrick Henry was a great man, an eloquent speaker, and a true American hero. He, of course, is the one who asked the Virginia Legislature in 1776 which was sweeter, liberty or death. We will, at the moment our Lord calls us, all experience the wonder and amazement of our passing to the next life. It is a special journey reserved for each and every one of us. But liberty is not, for it is not experienced by all. Very few in the course of human history have or ever will experience the sweetness of true liberty. Shit, most won't even be able to grasp it. Liberty in the united States has been boiled down to the statutory code and a hardy hi-yo Silver, the ballot box, the 11 o'clock news and a high school civics class. Whoopee! Freedom has been achieved for all. Meanwhile back at the ranch, someone mentions liberty and everybody looks at each other like a bunch of f*ckin' doofuses and says, "Gee, what does that mean?"

Freedom and liberty are not the same thing.

I think what liberty means is that there are still people out there who would rather be physically dead, preferring be with their Creator and His Son, than live under the yoke of totalitarianism, oppression and evil. That liberty means there are still people out there who would rather fight to the death than be humiliatingly stuffed in an oven, or cowardly shot in the back of the head while blindfolded and in front of their loved ones, and then dumped into a mass grave of other p*ssies, as 20 million were lucky to experience in the former Soviet Union. I think that what liberty means is that there are still a few folks who believe that "the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants alike."

Do you suppose there were a minority of Germans or Russians who spoke this way prior to the usurpations of their liberties by Hitler and the SS? How fast do you suppose they got rounded up and shipped off? Maybe the were just shot on sight. Or was it more likely the masses simply leaned back in their chairs, clasped their hands behind their heads and said, "Better them than me!" Trust me, a few more hellish years on earth to live amongst them, and at the absolute mercy of tyrants, doesn't register much against the clock of eternity.

I think if you decide to serve and essentially take up arms against your fellow countrymen, then you should know a few things. Some of those folks out in TV Land will not go quietly, and they won't go alone! They won't let you stuff 'em in ovens and they won't let you shoot 'em in the head without protesting just a tad. Shit, given half a chance, most of 'em might want to personally take you with 'em! Many are more than understanding and quite aware that, in the grand scheme of things, their time on this earth is but that of a vapor on a breezy day. Listen up man, Time magazine had an article a few years back that said the Universe itself would most likely last another 10 trillion, trillion years. That is a long time to be dead! Yes indeed, that eternity thing is surely a long time, and as things go, it is comforting knowing that there are more than a few people in this world ready to defend to the death their personal property and liberty against the tyranny of encroachment, fear and intimidation, martial law and murder at the hands of the state.

Soon, the choice of a new generation will come to this: serve, go to jail, or move. I'm "old school," as the kids say, and not part of the new generation, yet I too have choices. So never raise a weapon at me, and you'll never have to worry about the choices I've decided to make. I'll never be put in an oven, or lined-up to be executed in front of my family, then dropped in a hole. If push comes to shove, I don't plan on going alone, either.

So, if I were you, I'd move.

Off topic.. Oh yeah I feel the love now! 28.Jun.2004 12:00

klaatu

I never said I was leaving or that I was "done"! But you did and it is you who came back. LOL

"... You came back here, specifically here in fact" -- I have a bookmark! I never left and I go to lots of places... specifically, that's what happens when I click on a bookmark.

"...I tell you dont trade links on the internet, its a stupid waste, yet you come back everytime with more links"-- I don't care if you tell me not to post links, You clip the whole article I post a link ...so what.

Yes I criticized your attitude of superiority. I see it has hurt your feelings and I'm sorry about that but it surfaces in almost every post. You admit you want to run people off.

I don't want to engage you in a pissing match, why are you so intent on doing that by utilizing personal attacks?

If I spent my time in a library would that also be a crutch? It's a good point and maybe that's why no one is in the streets, they are all online. Anyway I have better places to move the topic forward and this one --"the internet as a crutch"-- is a worthy one, sadly not here.

Everything you say about me rubs off and sticks to you. --- Children's saying.

"you started it" -- ahahahahaaaaaaaaa

"now I'm going to ruin your whole day" -- Oh yeah, I feel the love now!

OT. BTW, realist 28.Jun.2004 12:06

klaatu

BTW, realist at first I had no clue as to what you were talking about. "FWIW I hang out here" was not referring to THIS board. sheesh again.

A Wolf 08.Sep.2004 10:51

Sarah

I agree with your assessment that A. Goodman is a CIA operative. It does'nt take alot of observation to see that her show avoids alot of the 'real' questions that should be asked about 9/11 and the bush administrations involement in that and so many other issues of the day. It is appearent that g.bush is guilty of many crimes and yet she never expose's or attacks him of anything, except for an occassional superficial comment. All I know is if she writes as well as speaks, then probably nobody will read her (what she has written)

this post is a classic example of disinformation attacking from both sides 18.Oct.2004 12:39

karl rove

It's fascinating to see the wingnut faction that promotes ridiculous disinformation (webfairy, holograms, pod planes, missiles, no plane at pentagon) attacking Amy Goodman as CIA. Yes, Amy has avoided the tough questions on 9/11 (as has much of the left), but she's done a lot of other good work -- certainly much more than the "pod people" have ever done.

The result of internet personas yelling that Amy is CIA without any hard evidence for this is a classic "snitch jacket" (falsely labeling activists as agents) attack -- and just the thing to ensure that Amy will not ever want to cover this topic. Who benefits from this?

 http://www.oilempire.us/bogus.html - disinformation tactics used against the 9/11 skeptics

 http://www.oilempire.us/berlet.html

 http://www.oilempire.us/democracynow.html

Amy God-Man, CIA Agent 28.Mar.2005 06:49

Wayne E. Manzo wmanzo@yahoo.com

I am a banished internet publisher who has tried producing an
investigative news magazine for cable access and also has
tried the mainstream media with my idea of a radio talk show.
Of course, my research information is not allowed to be distributed
anywhere in the United States and certainly not on the "CIA" owned
internet or airwaves.

When Amy God-Man and even Howard Stern start talking about
me(a former NASA scientist) and my research and my human rights
lawsuits, then, and only then, can you consider them not working
for the fake U.S. government(read: CIA, NSA, etc....).

What is my research about? I am the only real(read: human) researcher
in the United States that is publishing info about the "Klan",
"The White Supremicists", "The Aryans", "The Skin-Heads", "The NAZIS",
"The Catholics", "The Jews", "The Moslems"__all religious groups,
the fake media and the fake science fields. Oh, you mean your researching
American culture. That is correct! We live in a country that is controlled
and owned by "Fake People". They are not real humans and are thus "fakes" by
any scientific definition.

So why am I censored if I am a former NASA scientist who believes that
we humans in the United States have been enslaved by an invading race
of "Martians" that have developed "culture" so we humans don't figure
out that we have been enslaved and are being systematically exterminated.
Sounds crazy! Sounds paranoid! Until you research the origin of human language
and referential metaphor and discover that the beings around you are mind controlling telepaths who invented human language and control you like a muppet! Hey, you have symptoms of mental illness. Well, I can prove there
is no such thing as "religion" and no scientific basis for "psychiatry".
So, my reseach is the symptom or manifestation of a human researcher
who is sensisitized to the fact that we are living with aliens.

So, is Amy God-Man working for the CIA? Do geese lay goose eggs? Everybody on radio or tv works for the CIA and when your broadcasting and you get orders from "Big Brother" in your head you can bet that you will be doing exactly what you are directed to do__less you lose your job and/or your life. The
"Martian Klan" or "CIA" can control you directly or in-directly.

Life in America is cheap because the Martian Klan Race has taken over society.
How can you define life when the aliens can create life, duplicate people, and re-animate the dead? How do you define society when the cities and
burbs are being re-populated with "bee people" that are only impersonating
human life.

What does this have to do with democracy? There ain't no such thing!
16 years of the "Martian Klan" in the white house and you still can't figure
out that America has been turned back into a plantation. "What do you expect?"

I would like to produce an investigative news magazine for cable. I tried access tv but like Wayne and Garth, the only way for humans to produce tv programs for access is in their own studio or homes. Public access tv studios of this country are owned and controlled by the "Martian Agency". That's right, access tv is fake! I would also like to do a radio show concerning the fact that we are living with Martians and that there is no
government in the United States that will address the problem of humans unkowingly living with their enemies(Martian Klan Race).

Anybody interested in fighting God using tv or radio?

I am currently being kept in detention in the state of Ohio(Martian Klan Hive)
but I'm trying to get to Florida or another state where I can work on books, tv programs, radio programs, etc...
The state of Ohio refuses to allow me to work and without any funding and with all my sites and email censored__well, I am being kept as a hostage here in Ohio. I've tried the Red-Cross, The Salvation Army, The Churches, Temp Empl Agencies, etc... and because they are all controlled by the "Martian Agency or Klan"__I have been denied a bus ticket or work. They want me on the streets of their "Martian Klan" cities until they can butcher me like Charlie Manson(Ohio)'s gang butchered Sharon Tate, Steve Parent, Jay Siebert, Abigail Folger, and Voyteck Frykowski__or abduct me from the streets. Why do I associate Ohio with the Tate-La bianca murders? Well, I believe that the state
of Ohio ordered the killings. Manson, aka, "The Wizard"(The Grand Wizard) is
Ohio Klan and he takes orders from Ohio and Kentucky. But, that's a different
story__or is it?

Even as a plantation country the United States will continue to rise
as a, or the, superpower. Similar to the Roman Empire. And, when the
UFO or UFOs leave the United States__it will fall just as quickly as
the Roman Empire.

Is Amy God-Man CIA? Does Howard Stern work for the FCC? Yes, and Yes!

Sincerely,

Wayne E. Manzo,
Publisher, Scientist, Human Rights Leader
 wmanzo@yahoo.com
mansue.com is offline because of lack of payments to web66.com

 http://www.geocities.com/tv_access/

http://www.geocities.com/mansuedotcom/scandal.html
111 Gaynot Street, Columbus, Ohio

blah 21.Jun.2006 00:57

BLaZeMoNgEr

Okay.

My question is this:

If you knew the REAL truth to what REALLY happened on 9/11 (In MY opinion I do not think ANY of us know.) what would YOU do once you had that truth RIGHT UNDER YOUR NOSE?

Would you
A) Hide it for yourself
B) Sell it to those who do want it for a cost
C) Do as JFK said "Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country) and present a presentation on HOW to *PREVENT* another 9/11 type of event from occurring ever again in history and collect a nice paycheck for life knowing that YOUR info PREVENTED FUTURE events like 9/11 from EVER HAPPENING AGAIN!(and maybe ending up with a nice retirement salary for life)


My idea is that the so called PAY-TRIOT movement is heading in the WRONG direction.

Let's get together and OFFER OUR HELP to those who are HIRED by the government on HOW to PREVENT something like that from ever happening again in a PEACEFUL way.

I need more information 23.Jan.2007 17:43

Orwells Ghost ericcoda@yahoo.com

I too have come to these same conclussions only I have another huge mafia piece that brings it all home. I need more information however on the Jewish mafia.

Alex Jones connects into all of and I suspect his wife Violet is a part of 1 of the Jewish mafia families, along with Danny Bonaduce and Charlie Sheen with Italian and Spanish mafias.

Danny Bs sister in law is the special assistant to the Archdiocese of LA Cardinal Roger Mahony.
I also believe she is Eileen Carlucci and comes from the Frank Carlucci family.

Read all about them in my blogs on Myspace...
 http://www.myspace.com/ericindiana

The Carlucci family and the families connected to them...
Im also still collecting info on the Marquez family, they are deeply connected to the Carluccis and are Jesuit trained as well.

Carluccis

Alex - The International Brotherhood of Teamsters, Warehousemen, AFL-CIO
Andrew - St Johns Church
Anthony - LimeWire
Arthur - GM and co-founder of Deligo Technologies
Carol - Religious School Director at the Immaculate Conception
Chris - VP of JP Morgan, staffing director for ASIC (hmmm... SAIC... CIAs?)
David - CEO and Pres IMS Health Inc, GM for IBM
David - Airport Advisory Commission
David R - President and COO DataNetwork Inc
John - President of Coulee Catholic Schools.
"Nice Guy" Eddie - AT&T Corp. helping America prepare "Y2K"
Domenic - Captain American Airlines
Emiliano - VP for Azione Giovani (Youth Action), descendants of Mussolinis blackshirts

"Papa" Frank - CIA, NSA, CFR, TLC, Sec of Def, Carlyle Group, Ashland Oil, Unocal, Nortel Networks Corp, Encysive Pharmac., Pharmacia Corp, Neurogen Corp, Sears Word Trade Inc, Texas Biotechnology Corp, United Defense Industries, Kaman Corp, Rand Corporation, BDM International, General Dynamics, Westinghouse...
and was on the Board of Poplex, the company that set up voting machins in Illinois.

"When Carlyle went public the United Defense stock offerings in the Fall of 2001, Carlucci, Bush, Baker and other investors in Carlyle made out like bandits."
"Nortel Networks has partenered with Saudi Binladin Group on telecommunications ventures, Mr Carlucci and Mr Baker declined to comment."

"Sunny Boy" Frank C - Senior VP Extreme Networks Inc, Avaya Inc, Federal Data Corporation, Lucent Tech, Global Outsourcing, Nortel Networks, Pharmacia Corp, graduate Georgetown Univ School of Foreign Services and served in Naval Intel.

Gabriella - Member of the Forza Italia Party
Gary - Fraternal Order of Eagles
Jennifer - Data analyst Work-Force 1
John - Chief Network Architect Time Warner Cable
Joseph - Mesa Airlines
Joseph - Oracle, PEAC Inc.
Karen - Oracle Corp
Kevin - Inner Guard, Florida State Lodge - Fraternal Order of Police
Kristin - Rand Corp
Len - Columbia Bank
Lynette - Citgroup Inc
Matthew - Director PCG Associates Inc
Maurcia - Columbia University
Michelle - Director of Information Technologies School of the Holy Child
Mike - President and CEO of Azzuri Technologies
Nice - Venice Aviation Society

Paul - Publisher of the NY Post, CEO of News America Marketing and Board member of Herald Media, Board of Trustees of the Guardian Angels.
Graduated from Fordham. Rupert Murdoch says Paul is without peer in the consumer advertising and marketing industry. He replaced former NY Post publisher Lachlan Murdoch.

"Richy Rich" Richard - Senior VP Lark Tech, NY Stock Exchange "Once you see bombs, watch out -- Dow 20,000 baby!"

Robert - Columbia University
Ronald - Financial Exec Magic Lantern Group Inc
Steve - Viacom

"Wild" William - Board Member and past president of Pennsylvania Bar Association, Church of St Anns Cub Pack 38.

And those are just some of the Carlucci family.


Cellucci

Cellucci, Anthony Fleet Environmental Services LLC
Cellucci, Argeo Governor Argeo Celluci
Cellucci, Bob PaperThin , Inc.
Cellucci, Dan Copiers Plus Inc
Cellucci, Dan Catholic Leadership Institute
Cellucci, Dan PFD
Cellucci, Eileen Manchester Memorial School
Cellucci, Frank Pennsylvania Institute of Certified Public Accountants principal shareholder and managing director of Morris J...
Cellucci, Guy White and Williams LLP
Cellucci, Joseph EcomXML , Inc.
Cellucci, John Wachovia Corp.
Cellucci, Kate Magna Entertainment Corp. (Pauls wife)
Cellucci, Laura Miles & Stockbridge P.C.
Cellucci, Marc Daniel J. Flynn & Co
Cellucci, Michael Drew Estate , Inc.
Cellucci, Micki HarmonHomes.com
Cellucci, Paul Former Abassador to Canada
Cellucci, Peggy US Lacrosse Inc
Cellucci, Robert Local Union 14
Cellucci, Tania McMillan Binch LLP
Celluci, Tom Zyvex Corporation(nano-tech/ bio-chem), Cellucci Ass,Inc.
Cellucci, Tom Kong's Ltd.
Cellucci, Tom Skill Corp
Cellucci, Tony AT&T Corp. (Eddie Carlucci)

Carducci

Angela Carducci at Western Pennsylvania
Angie Carducci at The Pittsburgh Penguins
Bob Carducci at SG Aviation
Bobbi Carducci at The Purcellville Gazette
Bridget Carducci at Kemper Insurance Companies
Carolyn Carducci at Humility of Mary Health Partners
Cathy Carducci at Universal Medical Systems Inc
Chris Carducci at DFS International Inc.
Dan Carducci at Cub Scout Pack 475
Shayna Carducci at Cub Scout Pack 475
David Carducci at EagleInsider.com
David Carducci at Record-Courier
David Carducci at CPS&M
Dominick Carducci at Project Developers Inc
Domenico Carducci at Mazzarri
Donald Carducci at Matrox
Elizabeth M. Carducci at Medallia , Inc.
Geralyn Carducci at Manitowoc Newspapers Inc
Giana Carducci at Greenbranch Publishing , LLC
Giosue Carducci at MicroBusiness Italiana S.r.l.
Giosuè Carducci at University of Bologna (1835-1907)
Guido Carducci at UNESCO
Hank Carducci at Photonamics , Inc.
Jaclyn Carducci at Police Officer Norwood PA
Joe Carducci at Desloge
Joseph M. Carducci at Bedard Kurowicki & Co
Joseph Carducci at Rockwood Electronic Materials Ltd
Joseph Carducci at Notre Dame University
Joy Carducci at Ascension Lutheran Church
Julie Carducci at U.S. Export Assistance Center
Kim Carducci at Courier-Post
Larry Carducci at Westcon , Inc.
Leonard A. Carducci at Surf City Yacht Club
Linda Carducci at PROJECT SOLUTIONS , LLC.
Linda O. Carducci at PDI Medical Group , Inc.
Linda O. Carducci at Herndon Rotary Foundation Inc
Michael Carducci at Surf City Yacht Club
Michael A. Carducci at Johns Hopkins Kimmel Cancer Center
Mike Carducci at ABC Supply Co. , Inc.
Nicholas Carducci at Premier Canadian Properties Ltd
Pat Carducci at Canadian Auto Workers Union
Patricia Carducci at Canfin Financial Group
Rick Carducci at DynTek , Inc.
Rob Carducci at BMW Club
Robert J. Carducci at Canfin Financial Group
Ron Carducci at The San Bernardino SERRA Club
Ronald F. Carducci at Cal West Consultants , Inc.
Ronald F. Carducci at Southern California Chapter
Susan Carducci at Verizon Communications Inc.
Susan Carducci at Bell Atlantic Corporation
Thomas Carducci at Surf City Yacht Club
Tony Carducci at Emerling Ford Mercury Inc
Victor Carducci at The Commerce Club
Vince Carducci at Metro Times
Vincent A. Carducci at Standard Federal Bank
Vincenzo Carducci at Italian Painter (1578 - 1638)
Zeke Carducci at Computer Solutions

Here is proof that the Archbishops are little more than mafia Dons.

Operation Underworld

Operation Underworld was the United States government's code name for a series of mafia operations intended to counter Nazi saboteurs along the U.S. eastern seaboard, initiated in 1942.

In the first three months after the attack on Pearl Harbor, the U.S. lost 120 merchant ships to German U-boats.

The operation started when the Office of Strategic Services sought the help of Meyer Lansky, who controlled several dock workers groups.

Francis Cardinal Spellman, Archbishop of New York and military vicar of the U.S. armed forces, served as the intermediary between President Roosevelt and mob bosses Frank Costello and Lucky Luciano.

Luciano was in Clinton Correctional Facility during the operation, and was released in 1946—after serving only a fifth of his 50-year term—and deported to Sicily.[3]