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9.11 investigation

Media published fake passenger lists for American Airlines Flight 11

An examination of anomalies surrounding published passenger lists for American Airlines Flight 11 on Sept 11, 2001. (Alleged to have hit the WTC at 8.46.)
MEDIA PUBLISHED FAKE PASSENGER LISTS FOR AMERICAN AIRLINES FLIGHT 11.

By Gerard Holmgren  enquiry11@hotmail.com

Copyright. May 16, 2004. This article may be freely reproduced as long as it it is not for commercial purposes. Please include the authors name, the URL where you found it, and the copyright notice.

As everyone knows, on Sept 11 2001, 5 Arabs allegedly hijacked American Airlines flight 11 and crashed it into the Nth Tower of the World Trade Centre at 8.46 A.M. It was part of a crime which killed approximately 3000 people.

Any crime of this magnitude, is - or should be - subject to rigourous examination by investigative and law enforcement authorities, such as the FBI. In any crime involving the illegal use of a plane, it is obvious that one of the first investigative steps taken by such authorities is to find out who was on the plane.

This is not a difficult thing to do. Airlines keep well organized records of everybody on any particular flight. The apparent ID of anyone on that flight - regardless of whether they used a true or false ID - should be immediately available to authorities.

Unless authorities decide that disclosure of such information may jeopardize the investigation, it should also be easily available to the media. It should be as simple as an exchange of faxes or emails between the media and either the airline involved or one of the relevant authorities to which the airline has released the information. Or possibly printed copies handed out at a press conference.

In relation to the alleged AA11, there has never been any indication that such information has been withheld for security reasons. We have been given the clear impression that the information relating to exactly who was on that plane has been made available to us via the media - which presumably sourced it in the manner suggested above. If the information had been withheld, one would expect that to be known.

Supporters of the official story seem to support this view. In the face of mounting evidence that none of the Sept 11 crashes were actually caused by the planes alleged to have been involved (some of this evidence is linked at the conclusion of this article), supporters of the official story will often reply with a demand to know exactly what happened to the alleged passengers, illogically imagining the lack of a specific answer to represent a flaw in the no planes/substitute planes argument. Implicit in this demand is the belief that there is solid documentation of who the passengers were.

Anybody can put up a website, do an interview or send an email, claiming to be family or friend of a plane victim. But the only credible, official source for such information is the airline passenger list, and the only credible source for obtaining this information is the airline itself, or authorities and media to which the airline makes it available. One can't demand an explanation of what happened to particular people alleged to be on the flight unless one can prove that they were on the flight. Implicit in the official story is the assumption that such information has been established in the public domain by the media.

It is therefore incumbent upon any serious investigator to properly examine such passenger lists and ensure that they match with other alleged facts we have been given, and with the processes by which one would expect the information to have been sourced.

In this context, the following statement by "USA Today" in relation to its published passenger lists is of some concern.

"Partial lists of passengers and crew killed in Tuesday's terrorist attacks, according to family members, friends, co-workers and local law enforcement."

 http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2001/09/11/victims-list.htm

This is a very strange way to source such information. Why not get it from American Airlines or the FBI? If neither of these were consulted, how did USAT know who's "family members, friends, co-workers" to go looking for? Or if AA and the FBI were the first source of inquiry, why a partial list from hearsay sources?
Why "local law enforcement" rather than the feds, who would surely have any complete database of the victims? This statement appears to make no sense at all, except to confirm that the obvious sources where any media outlet should be looking - American Airlines and the FBI - seem to have been left out of the process. And it gets more ridiculous.

At
 http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2001/09/12/victim-capsule-flight11.htm

USAT gives the following bio of one of the alleged victims.

"Tom McGuinness, of Portsmouth, N.H., was co-pilot of American Airlines Flight 11, an official at his church confirmed...He said church pastors were with his wife when she was notified Tuesday morning. "

Surely American Airlines, the FAA or the FBI would be the only sources which could confirm who was co-piloting the plane. A family member, who's ID can be verified would be a reasonably good unofficial source, but first one needs to find out which family one is looking for. In the process of ascertaining that, one should have already received official confirmation. This source is someone who claims to know such a family member - a second hand attribution to a source which is not official anyway, and should be subject to confirmation from AA, The FAA or the FBI.

Why does USAT cite the church administrator as the source, indeed the confirmation of the information, when they can't have found out anything about how to find the church administrator without first consulting the official source, which could comfirm it far more authoritively ? The indications are that the church administrator contacted USAT with this claim, and USAT accepted this hearsay at face value. If so, this is very poor journalism.

One can't be certain of the exact processes employed by USAT, but its fair to say that there are strong indications that its passenger list is based on hearsay, because they had some kind of problem in obtaining the routine documentation which one would expect to be available, but failed to give a direct disclosure of what that problem was.

By contrast, CNN, introducing its passenger list ,says

 http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/victims/main.html

"authorities from American Airlines, United Airlines, the Department of Defense, the New York City Medical Examiners Office and the New York City Fire Department, have released partial lists. They are linked below."

This is a clear indication that CNN claims to have sourced its passenger information as one would expect.

The firs passenger list for AA11 which I studied was that presented by CNN.

 http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/victims/AA11.victims.html

It says that there were 92 people aboard, but if you count the names listed there are 87 - and no Arabic names. On the surface, this seems reasonable. One can speculate that CNN has published the names of all 87 innocent victims, and deleted the names of the 5 hijackers for sensitivity reasons.

If so, why is said that American Airlines released a "partial list" ?

For the moment, lets give CNN the benefit of the doubt and assume this to be a complete list (in contradiction to what they wrote) of the 87 innocents alleged to be on board - a list sourced from AA, whether directly, or indirectly via a law enforcement agency. A reading of the names suggests that the CNN list may actually represent only 86 people - one name duplicated with different spelling.

Robin Caplin and Robin Kaplan are listed as two different people. There is a brief bio for Kaplan, but nothing for Caplin, except the home town.

Perhaps this is just an enormous co-incidence and two people with such names actually were on the flight ? Lets suspend judgment for the moment, while we investigate further.

I then checked the passenger list provided by USA Today.

 http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2001/09/11/victims-list.htm

Again, it is described as a partial list. It contains 86 names. - one short of a complete list. Robin Caplin is missing. However, two other names from the CNN list - Jude Larson and Natalie Larson - are also missing, and the list contains two names which are not on the CNN list.

Kelly Booms and Pendyala Vamsikrishna.

Lets think through the possibilities.
1) Two of the names from the collective passenger lists are fictitious.
2) Neither list is complete, and the complete list of innocents only emerges from a collective viewing of the lists - as strongly implied by the term "partial list" used in relation to both lists. If so, then we have 89 innocents. If this is the case, there can't be 5 hijackers for a total of 92 people. And yet nobody seems to dispute these two figures.

At  http://www.boston.com/news/daily/12/victims_list.htm

We find a list of AA 11 victims published on Sept 13 2001, which, judging by the introduction, may have come from exactly same the source as that used by USAT today. It begins thus.

"By The Associated Press. Partial list of those killed in Tuesday's terrorist attacks, according to family members, friends, co-workers and law enforcement. "

Compare it with the introduction to the USAT list.

"Partial lists of passengers and crew killed in Tuesday's terrorist attacks, according to family members, friends, co-workers and local law enforcement."

However, this list is quite different to that published by USAT - or CNN . While not giving any summation, it contains the names of 89 alleged innocents and introduces two new names - Robert Jalbert and James Roux. Vamsikrishna and Booms are the two names not included from the collective CNN and USAT lists. Since it publishes 89 names as a "partial list " this implies a minimum of 90 innocents aboard the plane.
From the three combined lists, we now have 91 alleged innocents and 5 hijackers for an apparently undisputed summation of 92. The Boston Daily list ,in isolation, implies a minimum of 95 aboard, while the collective lists imply 96 - if one is to believe in 5 hijackers. Alternatively, there must be four fictitious innocents.

The Boston Daily list also contains "Heath Smith", which would appear to be a substitute for "Heather Smith" named on the previous two lists.

A year later, the Boston Daily published a very different list, seemingly without acknowledging any previous error.

 http://www.boston.com/news/packages/sept11/anniversary/victims/flight11.htm

It contains only 87 names. Jalbert ,Roux,Caplin and the two Larsons have been dropped for Booms,Vamsikrishna and another new name - Waleed Iskander - who is not alleged to be one of the terrorists. Heath Smith has become Heather Lee Smith. A person named on every other list as Antonio Montoya has become Antonio Jesus Montoya Valdes. Peter Hashem has been replaced by Peter el-Hachem.From the bio, it appears to be a different name for the same person While the odd spelling discrepancy or missing hyphen is quite plausible, this much of a name change is stretching the credibility a little. I can believe that "Green" could become "Greene" or "Catherine" become "Katherine", but "Hashem" becoming "el- Hachem" - from an official passenger list - is more difficult to accept.

This is most unsatisfactory. The combined lists now name 92 innocents, so if one is to believe in 92 aboard, 5 of which were hijackers, we now have 5 fictitious innocents.
We have three major mainstream media outlets, publishing 4 lists which all contradict each other about who was on board, when this information should have ultimately come from one official,well organized source. We have lists claiming to be "partial lists" publishing more names than should be in a complete list.

I checked another list - from the Guardian dated sept 13 ,2001
 http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,551423,00.html

This also claims 92 people aboard. It published only 75 names, saying

"This is a preliminary, partial list of passengers aboard the flight whose next of kin have been notified. Some families asked the airline not to include their loved ones' names: these do not appear. "

Fair enough. So this list is unable to be fully tested for consistency with either of the other four conflicting lists. However, it does agree on the number of people aboard. 92. This creates a real headache for the official story. Is the figure of 92 correct? Should it be really be 97 - the 92 collectively listed innocents plus 5 hijackers? If so, why is everyone saying 92 ? Or were there no hijackers? If so, why is everybody saying 5 ? Or are 5 of these names fictitious ? If so,why ?

The Guardian list also has Heath Smith instead of Heather Smith, and Hashem rather than el-Hachem.

There's another problem. If AA released only 75 names on Sept 13, how did the Boston Daily mange to publish 89 on the same day ? Where did it get the extra names that the airline was still withholding ?

Now the list from NBC
 http://www.msnbc.com/modules/wtc/victims/default.asp?p=5

It lists 87 names for a summation of 92, and is the same as the USAT list, except for the addition of Iskander. That is - the same as the anniversary list from the Boston Daily.

I checked another mainstream media source - PBS

 http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/sept11/victims/aa11.html

which entitles its list " One year later. Remembering the victims."

This agrees with the NBC and Boston anniversary lists.

Lets review the problems so far.

From five mainstream media outlets we have four conflicting lists.

Robin Caplin and Robin Kaplan on the same flight is difficult to believe, especially as Caplin is one of the frequently missing names.

The lists can't agree on the correct names for three of the passengers - Hashem/el- Hachem, Heath/Heather Smith, and Antonio Montoya/Valdez .

There are collectively 92 innocents and 5 hijackers for a total of 92 aboard.

So these are the possibilities
a) 5 of the innocents are fictitious
b)There were no hijackers
c) Some of these people were the real hijackers
d) There were 97 people aboard.

I will clarify what I mean by "fictitious". It may be that the extra names represent real people, who are missing and presumed dead. It may be that they have family and friends who honestly believe that the missing person boarded a flight called American Airlines 11. That's a matter for further research. But for five of these individuals who have been listed, (although we can't at this stage specify who ) the belief that they were on AA11 is proven to be false - unless one is to accept one of the other possibilities above.

The Washington Post from Sept 12
 http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A18970-2001Sep12

Introduces its list as

"American Airlines partial passenger lists"

and then lists 89 names, (no hijackers) implying a minimum of 95 aboard. Once again, how did it get 89 names on Sept 12, if AA was still withholding some of them on Sept 13 ?

Those missing are Iskander, Vamsikrihna and Jalbert. This doesn't even agree with the missing three from the Boston Daily's first list of 89, published the day after. The missing names there were Iskander, Vamsikrishna and Booms. So even if it were to be argued that the Boston Daily and the Washington Post somehow found a source of which the Guardian was unaware, their lists still don't match.

Fox news
 http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,34223,00.html

lists only 81 names. It gives no summation and introduces the list as

"Confirmed on board American Airlines Flight 11 Boston to Los Angeles: "

perhaps implying that this is only a preliminary list and that a complete list is still awaiting confirmation. The problem is that this report is dated Sept 20, 2001. Why does it take more than 9 days to achieve the simple task of obtaining an official passenger list? Perhaps the story about AA only releasing 75 names on Sept 12 is true, and that by Sept 20, this had risen to 81. If so, then those who were publishing 89 names on Sept 12 and 13 have some explaining to do. But if they were telling the truth, then the Guardian has some explaining to do, and so does Fox in relation to why it was only able to confirm 81 names more than a week later. And yet, even those who were publishing 89 names were calling them partial lists and disagreeing on the names. Someone is fibbing.

At  http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/9/12/133231.shtml

dated Sept 12, 2001, NewsMax.com introduces its passenger list thus, appearing to support the Guardian's version of how the information was being released.

"American Airlines Wednesday released a partial list of passengers and crewmembers aboard the two flights downed by terrorist acts in New York and Washington. The following is a list of passengers whose next-of-kin have been notified. American has honored the requests of those families who have asked that their loved ones' names not be included. "

Note that like the Guardian, it does not claim to withheld the names itself. AA didn't supply the missing names.

It publishes 77 names, including Heath Smith, not Heather. And Hashem, not el-Hachem. This would appear to be the identical source as the Guardian. So why did the Guardian - the following day - publish two less names? The lists are identical except for these two - Judy Laroque and Carlos Montoya - missing from the Guardian list.

The same intro as NewsMax with a matching passenger list to NewsMax appears at

 http://archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/2001/09/12/story23539.asp

also dated sept 12.And also at

 http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m4PRN/2001_Sept_12/78169846/p1/article.jhtml

and again at

 http://yellowhawk33.tripod.com/html/powmia.html

Except that this list is identical to the Guardian. 75 names, with Laroque and Carlos Montoya omitted. Well...almost identical. Heath Smith has become Heather Smith.

Even more puzzling in relation to Smith, is why large news agencies such as CNN and USAT who one would surely expect to have also received this early list, made the same mistake in relation to Smith, naming him as Heather.(Unless Heather is correct and sources such as the Guardian and NewsMax somehow made Heather into Heath.)

If this is alleged to be simply a typo, why are nearly all of the other names consistently free of typos or variations (other than who was included ) in list after list ? Why does every office typist develop a severe case of dyslexia or fumble fingers every time Smith's name comes up ? In isolation, this problem would strongly indicate that some news sources are just copying from other news sources. Someone initially made a mistake in copying Smith's name, and this mistake got passed on to some other lists. But that theory doesn't stand up to scrutiny. If different media outlets are simply copying each others lists - without acknowledgment - why are nearly none of them the same ?

Whatever the answer to this mystery, we can confidently state that media is not publishing any kind of reliable, official documentation. These lists are an appalling shambles, not worth the paper that they're not written on.

This site  http://www.wwnfsept11.com/AmericanAirlinesFlight11Victims.htm

makes no comment on the total number aboard, but if you count the names you'll find 88 innocent victims. It's the same as the CNN list with the addition of Iskander.
The authors of the site do not identify themselves or their sources in any way, so I went to the home page

 http://www.wwnfsept11.com

which also gave no real information about the authors or the sources.
Where did this list come from? Whoever put it together has not even uncritically copied one of the previously examined lists ( while failing to source it). They've created a new combination of names from the combined lists. Or if they've uncritically copied it without acknowledgment from some other mainstream source which has eluded my searches, then we have yet another contradictory list. Why does it imply 93 aboard ?

At this point it is worth doing some searching to see if there's any significant disputation of the figures of 92 aboard, including 5 hijackers.

In relation to the five hijackers, it would appear not. The 5 hijacker story is so integral to the official myth, that it's not worth linking the sources which claim it, and I can't find anything which disputes it

At  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_flight_11

which describes itself as an encyclopedia about Sept 11, is a link to what is confidently described as a "flight manifest " for A11, although it gives no source for this information. Clicking on this link takes one to

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11%2C_2001_Terrorist_Attack/Plane_casualties

which introduces AA 11 as having 93 aboard, including 5 hijackers. The list does contain the names of 5 suspected hijackers (All Arabic names) , so there should be 88 innocents.It specifies this directly by stating

"93 people: 82 passengers (including 5 hijackers), 9 flight attendants, 2 pilots "

This makes 11 crew and 77 innocent passengers. 88 innocents in total.

But if you count the names, there's only 92 - 5 hijackers and 87 innocents,making a mockery of the rather official sounding title of "flight manifest." The missing names are Caplin, Jude Larson, Natalie Larson, Roux , Jalbert and Iskander. The reason why six names have been dumped from the collective list of 92 to make 87 is that this list has a new name - Lana Tu. So we now have - collectively - 93 innocents and five hijackers for a total of 92 or 93 aboard.

Here are just a few of the sources which agree on the summation of 92 aboard.Most of them are sites with reasonably good reputations as reliable sources of information. None of them represent sources which question the official story in any way.

Crash database.com
 link to www.crashdatabase.com

US govt info/resources
 http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/blattack0911.htm

Newsday
 link to www.newsday.com

ABC News
 link to abcnews.go.com

Massport press release
 http://www.massport.com/about/press01/press_news_advisory2.html

Christian Science Monitor
 http://www.csmonitor.com/2001/0913/p1s2-usju.html

Airsafe.com
 http://www.airsafe.com/events/airlines/american.htm

Washington Post
 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/transcripts/american_text091101.htm

Washington Post
 link to a188.g.akamaitech.net

Airdisaster.com
 link to www.airdisaster.com

Aviation Safety Network
 http://aviation-safety.net/database/2001/010911-0.htm

WiredNews
 http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,46740,00.html?tw=wn_story_related

Times-Herald Record
 http://www.recordonline.com/adis/62/stories/timeline.htm

The Straits Times.
 http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/mnt/html/webspecial/WTC/timeline2.html

World Statesman
 http://www.worldstatesmen.org/index2.html

Biblia Vividia
 http://biblia.com/islam/newyork.htm

Higher Praise.com News
 http://www.higherpraise.org/news/ArchivedNews4.htm

 http://www.disenchanted.com/dis/lookup.html?node=1535

 http://www.ezl.com/~fireball/Disaster.htm

So, if we have universal agreement that there were 92 aboard - 5 hijackers and 87 innocents - why can no-one agree on who those 87 innocents were? Which 6 of the 93 names are fictitious ?

It appears that some spin doctor became partially aware of this problem, and tried to solve it by putting up another of these hearsay sites - again failing to provide identification or sources.

 http://www.inmemoriamonline.net/List_AA11.html

According to this list, there were 90 innocents aboard, and 5 hijackers, for a summation of 95. Not a word is said about the universally accepted figure of 92. This is simply swept aside as if the figure had never existed. It publishes 90 names - 90 of the 93 collectively published in all of the other conflicting lists. But where did this list come from ? The site has not copied from any of the previously examined mainstream media sites. Or if its copied (without providing documentation), from some other mainstream source which has eluded my searches , then we have yet another contradictory list. But since this site broke basic documentation protocol, by providing no sources, we are entitled to assume the worst. That they fabricated their own list, by cobbling together 90 names from other collective lists - indicating that they were well aware of the discrepancies, but failed to note three of the names - and then fabricated the summation of 95 aboard to try to make the figures add up - hoping that no-one would notice.

The missing names are Jalbert, Tu and Vamsikrishna

At
 http://www.americanmemorials.com/memorial/deathnotice_private.asp?idMemorial=1317

is a list from "ObituryRegistry.com which describes itself as " a service of AmericanMemorials.com"

Upon first viewing of the site, its not immediately apparent what the official status, if any, of this site is. Since anyone can post anything they like on the internet, one needs to check these things carefully. So I followed some of the links to find out more about the site and its authors, and its official status, if any. I clicked the link for AmericanMemorials.com which took me here

 http://www.americanmemorials.com/

It describes itself as the "The internet's most complete database of current obituaries and death notices. Searchable by name,city and state, keywords and more."

It invites one to create one's own memorial for $US49.95. Following various links around the site gives no indication that it is anything other than a commercial operation, with no official status. So it appears as if anybody could create a memorial to anyone- real or fictitious - as long as they came up with $49.95. So lets have a look at the list for AA11.

It lists 90 innocents, and introduces two new names. Bill Weems and Timothy Ward. So we now have 95 alleged innocents. Those missing from this list are Tu, Booms, Vamsikrishna, Jalbert and Roux.

There are now a minimum of 8 fictitious innocents -unless someone wants to suggest that there were 100 people aboard in total -or else get creative with the practical application of abstract maths and suggest that the plane was hijacked by a group of Arabs numbering minus three, making the total passenger load 92 - in which case the media owes an explanation for why it keeps publishing 5 names for these minus three individuals.

Someone is fibbing.

Here is a summary of the anomalies between the lists.

Collectively, these sources list the names of 95 alleged innocents.

CNN lists 87 names, which should be a complete list ,but indicates that the list is incomplete. The 8 left out are Vamsikrishna, Roux, Iskander,Jalbert, Tu,Weems,Ward and Booms.

USAT lists 86 names, citing this as a "partial list", Those missing are Caplin, Jalbert, Jude Larson, Natalie Larson, Roux, Tu,Weems,Ward and Iskander.

NBC lists 87 names. Its the same as USAT with the addition of Iskander, but changes Peter Hashem to Peter el-Hachem.

PBS is identical to NBC.

The Boston daily lists 89 innocents and describes it as a a partial list. Those missing are Iskander,Vamsikrishna, Tu , Weems,Ward and Booms. It is the only list to name Jalbert.

A year later it lists 87 names, changing Heath Smith to Heather Smith, Hashem to el-Hachem , and losing Caplin, the two Larsons, Jalbert and Roux for Iskander, Vamsikrishna.and Booms.

The Washington Post published a "partial list" containing 89 names. Those missing are Iskander,Vamsikrishna, Jalbert , Tu , Weems and Ward .

The "we will never forget" website lists 88 names. Those missing are Vamsrikrishna, Jalbert, Booms, Tu,Weems,Ward and Roux.

The AA11 memorial website lists 90 names and claims 95 aboard. The missing names are Vamsikrishna, Tu, Weems,Ward and Jalbert.

Wikipedia claims a summation of 93 aboard, but lists only 92 names (including hijackers).It is the only site to list Lana Tu. Those missing are Iskander, Caplin, the two Larsons, Jalbert,Weems,Ward and Roux. This makes it the same as the USAT list with the addition of Tu or put another way - the same as the NBC and PBS lists except that Tu is in for Isaknder.

The American Memorials/Obituary site lists 90 names and is the only list to name Weems and Ward. It leaves out Tu, Jalbert,Vamsikrishna, Roux and Booms.

Several sources claim that AA released 77 (or 75) names on Sept 12, but the Washington Post published 89 names the same day, and the Boston Daily published 89 - but not the same 89 - the day after, while Fox News was still claiming that only 81 names were confirmed a week later.

We still can't rule out the possibility that Caplin/Kaplan is a genuine co-incidence, but suspicion is justified, especially as Caplin is one of the frequently missing names. Some lists have Peter el-Hachem, others Peter Hashem. Some lists have Heather Smith and others Heath Smith. Most lists have Antonio Montoya but one has Antonio Montoya Valdes.

Since the media which sells us the official story universally agrees that there were 92 aboard - 87 innocents and 5 hijackers, then 8 of these names (although we can't yet specify which 8 ) must be fictitious. If 8 are confirmed as fictitious, then we are perfectly entitled to speculate with some validity that any number of the 95 could be fictitious.

What's even more curious is that four of these names also appear on the lists for UA 175, alleged to have hit the Sth Tower of the WTC at 9.03. Jalbert ,Roux, Ward and Weems.

What a mess ! This crime - the murder of approximately 3000 people , and the excuse for two wars and alarming attacks on civil liberties - and presumably more to come - is supposed to have been properly investigated and documented ? Why should we be expected to believe who the hijackers were, when the spin doctors can't even do a credible fabrication job of a list of innocent victims ?

It's previously been demanded by many sceptics that we need to see a verifiable official passenger list which actually contains the names of the alleged hijackers. We can now take the implications of that further and point to the absence of any passenger list documentation for AA11 which stands up to scrutiny as a credible document. We have nothing which could support the existence of any of the alleged passengers on the alleged flight.

The fact is - that in nearly three years - the media has tried to give the impression that they have published valid passenger lists, when all that has been provided is the contradictory rubbish exposed in this investigation. We are left with no choice but to conclude that these AA11 lists are fabrications. Personal stories of those allegedly involved have been built on the basis of these fabricated lists. As qualified earlier, some or all of them may be real people who are really missing, and may have friends or families who genuinely believe that they got on to a flight called AA11. We don't know at this stage. But the passenger lists as complete entities are lies.

I say "alleged flight" because the article linked below presents official documentation that there was no such flight as AA11 on Sept 11, 2001.

"What really happened to American Airlines Flights 11 and 77 on Sept 11, 2001. by Gerard Holmgren Nov 13 2003.

 http://sydney.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=36354&group=webcast

The article linked below presents documentation that if one is to use media reports as the basis to claim the existence of such a flight, then one would have to believe that there were two AA11s that day.

Flight 11 - The Twin Flight - by Woody Box

 http://physics911.org/net/modules/weblog/details.php?blog_id=28

This website presents video evidence that neither of the objects which struck the WTC were the planes alleged in the official story.

First hit examinations

 http://thewebfairy.com/911/noplane

Second hit examinations

 http://thewebfairy.com/911/2hit

This page presents a comprehensive compilation of evidence for Govt. involvement in the Sept 11 attacks.

 http://www.911closeup.com/index.shtml?ID=50

SUGGESTIONS FOR VERIFYING THIS INFORMATION FOR YOURSELF

For those who would like to seriously scrutinize my analysis - and I welcome and encourage such scrutiny - here is a suggestion for a way to analyze this mass of data while minimizing the likelihood of mistakes.

Print each list linked in this article. Choose one list as a reference list, which I will call List 1. Count the names - at least twice - and write down the number. Take list 2. Count the names - at least twice- and write down the number. Cross check it , name by name, with list 1. On list 1 write down any names from list 2 which are missing, and on list 2, write down any names from list 1 which are missing. Ensure that the summary of conflicting names reconciles with the numbers of names on both lists. Take list 3, count the names and write down the number. Cross check the names against lists 1 and 2 in the same way, writing on list 3 any names missing from the compilation of lists 1 and 2, and adding any new names appearing in list 3 to lists 1 and 2. Ensure that the numbers match the name discrepancies and move through the rest of the lists in similar fashion. When you are finished, each list should contain a listing of names it has omitted from the collective list. This was the method I used for this research.

In case anyone is thinking of removing or doctoring the lists linked in this article, they've already been backed up and widely distributed.

Craptacular! 16.May.2004 08:38

Christopher mankey

I see the alleged flight "11" that supposedly hit the alleged world trade on the allged date of september 11, 2001, suposedly in an alleged city named new york. I remember all the alleged victims and the alleged collapse of the alleged towers in the imaginary city on the east coast. Allegedly

what about other plane crashes? 16.May.2004 09:17

gerry

What has the procedure been in other plane crashes? Have there ever been discrepancies about the names and numbers? What sources have the media used in the past to publish their passenger lists?

planes half full 16.May.2004 09:51

Nori J. Muster exkritter@yahoo.com

It is clear that the passenger lists are fictitious and that there were no planes. That may be one reason why we only hear from the families of the victims who died in the towers. Also, planes such as the ones allegedly involved in 9/11 carry 186 passengers. What are the chances that all four were half full? If you are concerned about these (and other major) discrepancies send your comments to: Thomas H. Kean, Chair Lee H. Hamilton, Vice Chair info@9-11Commission.gov You may say "what's the use, they'll just lie to protect the president and endorse the official story anyway." But if they hear from enough people, they will be more likely to actually say something of substance in their report. They can't ignore it if they see the 9/11 hoax has become common knowledge. I have collected hundreds of links on the 9/11 hoax at my site: http://surrealist.org/prayforpeace/9-11truth.html

http://surrealist.org/prayforpeace/9-11truth.html
P.O. Box 41750, Mesa, AZ 85274

Mafattavanazool! 16.May.2004 10:27

Mulberry Sellers

"It is clear that the passenger lists are fictitious and that there were no planes."

Okay, then exactly what was the bloody great thing with, like, wings, and a tail, and engines and airline markings and stuff which was both seen and filmed crashing into the tower?

"Also, planes such as the ones allegedly involved in 9/11 carry 186 passengers. What are the chances that all four were half full?"

Ever taken a really early-morning flight from, say, the East Coast to LA? It's pretty common for those to be sparsely booked. The only people who are hauling their asses to the airport and going through all the crap that early are the people who are stuck with it. In fact, if you want to have the best chance of having an entire row of seats to yourself, taking an early bird flight is an excellent way to do it.

The suggestion above of looking into the accuracy of passenger lists from previous air disasters is a sound one. My recollection is that it often takes a few days to get the identities of all the people on a crashed flight sorted out, and that the passenger list is only a starting point, not a definitive solution to that problem.

Of course, that's only an impression formed from news reports of air crashes. YMMV.

reply to YMMV 16.May.2004 10:48

Nori J. Muster exkritter@yahoo.com

Dear YMMV,
There's only one video and no photos that show the planes hitting the Twin Towers. Where were all the tourists and journalists who might have had cameras with them that day? The one video that exists shows a puff of smoke hitting one tower, and a plane going into the other tower with no crash, no explosion, but rather just melting into the tower like a knife into a cake. The explosion occurs about 10 - 20 floors above the floor where the plane hit.
Show me a photo - show me a video - there has to be more than just one.
This is not a partisan issue where you have to get so rankled. This was the worst crime in the history of the world. We're just trying to understand the facts. Nothing adds up. All for now. I gotta go to work today.
-Nori

verification of deaths 16.May.2004 12:02

N.Kollerstrom (London 9:11 Sceptics Group)

Of the 86 or so passenger names on the given lists for flight AA11, I found that only 17 appear on the SSDI (Social Security Death Index) for the date of 9:11 (http://ssdi.genealogy.rootsweb.com/). One can't get far in America without a social security number, unique for each individual, and at death this transfers into the SSDI: this is the most reliable American index of who has really died and when. Of the given crew list of 11, for the flight AA11, only one was thus registered, for that date. Thus flight assistants Betty Ong and Madeleine Sweeney that we've heard so much about, are not recorded as dying on or around that date, as far as the SSDI is concerned. The supposed pilot of that plane, John Ogonowski, is not recorded as dying on or around 11th September 2001: how can that be? Of interest is the name Xavier Suarez on the AA11 pasenger list: for this distinctive name the SSDI gives only one person, not surprisingly - however, the date given is 28 Nov, 2003 (NJ). Does this mean that Suarez kept using his social security number for two years after his claimed death? I agree with Mr Holmgren that more research is worthwhile over who really died that fateful morning.

America : lies are US 16.May.2004 15:09

John Cameron

I understood that George Washington was revered in America because of his integrity.No.43 TAKE NOTE. 911 is a cesspool of lies from day one. 1.Buildings dont fall out of the sky.eg.Implosion of WTC building # 7. 2.Lack of wreckage Boeing 757 200 AA Flight 77 ( 100 tons.) Pentagon 911 etc.etc. American voters are like lemmings, easily led. "Whilst secrecy prevails,Democracy withers & fails."

The SSDI is apparently far from definitive 16.May.2004 15:14

Mulberry Sellers

SSDI searches on family members who I know to be dead produce mixed results.

"Nothing Found" for my father, whose death must have been reported to the SSA as my mother and I received survivors benefits.

"Nothing Found" for my uncle Tony, whose death can easily be verified on the net by other means (it appears in a footnote to an SEC filing, of all places).

They do have a record of my paternal grandmother's death in 1982, but nothing for any of my other deceased relatives.

That might give some indication of the futility of using the SSDI to try to prove that someone is *not* dead.

Other online public records searches have produced similar results. Somethimes there really isn't any substitute for going to where the paper records are kept and searching the hard way.

As for the claim that there's only one video of the second plane hitting, a set of captures from a video which is *obviously* not the one we all saw endlessly repeated on TV (taken from a completely different angle) can be found here:

 link to www.magnumphotos.com

Examine them in sequence. They show very clearly that the fireballs appear on the same level as the crashing plane.

I've found a source for the video we all remember, but can't review it until I get home, as they require RealPlayer, which is not installed on this computer.

The main point 16.May.2004 19:23

Gerard

Mulberry sellers writes

[[what was the bloody great thing with, like, wings, and a tail, and engines and airline markings and stuff which was both seen and filmed crashing into the tower?]]

It would helpful if some of the debunkers actually read the article, and checked its links, and then did a bit of basic research before shooting off their mouths.

The footage that Mulberry Seller is referring to is of the second crash. AA11 was allegedly the first. In the first video, there is nothing that looks anything like a 767.

The links to this video evidence were provided at the conclusion of the article.

Sorting out which crash we're talking about should be basic stuff.

The first commenter, unable to find anything factually incorrect or illogical about the article, had to resort to attributing to me things which I didn't write - for example, misrepresenting me as saying that there was no such city as NY. Its easy to discredit someone if you simply make up stuff which they didn't say and then criticise that. Official aviation records say that there was no such flight as AA11 on Sept 11. The links are provided.

Even if a 767 hit the tower- and the video shows quite clearly that it was not - that wouldn't prove that it was AA 11. The fact that official records show no such flight, and that the media has resorted to publishing fake passenger lists doesn't help the cause.

Nevertheless, lets have a little focus.However anyone might tellytubble about the other issues, this article was about one very specific issue.
The so-called passenger lists for AA11 are not worth byte space they take up.

The story has internal contradictions. There can't be 95 innocents and five hijackers for a total of 92 aboard. Clearly, wherever these lists came from, it was not from a routine flight manifest of the type that airlines keep.

Someone is fibbing. The onus is on those who want to claim that AA11 hit the WTCto provide evidence that AA11 even took off, let alone hit the tower.
As the evidence has stacked up to the contrary, they have all begun to bleat "Well what happened to the passengers?"

Which passengers - specifically?

Would any of the debunkers care to hazard a guess as to who was on the plane and who wasn't, and provide some documentation for it ?

Whilst secrecy prevails, democracy withers & fails 16.May.2004 20:46

Nori J. Muster exkritter@yahoo.com

Whilst secrecy prevails, democracy withers & fails. i like that so i added it to my web page:
 http://surrealist.org/prayforpeace/9-11truth2.html.
Do you have an attribution for that? . . . I love my country, but i get mad when people lie. For ten years i was in a dishonest guru group. I had put my faith in the guru, thinking that he represented God. It was a painful disillusionment when i found out what was really going on: drug dealing, child abuse, etc. Now i feel the same way about my own government. . . . When i was seven years old JFK was murdered and then the government glossed it over. Many people were unhappy with the official answer, but they conducted a mock investigation and concluded "that's the way it is." That was the first real news story that i understood as a child. That had a huge effect on how i see the world. It did not have to be that way. But if that was a lie, then they have continued lying all these years and now they have told the biggest lie in the history of the world. The only reason people believe it is because it would be more unbelievable to think someone could tell such a big lie. . . . We owe it to the children who are coming up now to straighten this out and give them a sense of resolution. If we leave this big hoax dangling, our world will slide toward hell. . . . The Kennedy assassination had several lingering question marks, but 9-11 has about 3,000 question marks. Why is there practically no evidence of the planes? If there were planes, why did NORAD stand down when the planes went off course? Why did the hijackers leave their luggage and passports behind so that authorities would find them? Why did the government ignore intelligence warnings? Why are the Bush people so afraid to investigate anything? Why did Bush sit with children at an elementary school on 9-11 after a month-long vacation in Texas? Why did WTC 7 implode? For that matter, why did WTC 1 & 2 implode? . . . . I was in a cult and you may look down on me for that if you wish, but now YOU are in a cult. You have been brainwashed and indoctrinated and now you're being asked to look the other way while the leaders pursue their crimes and follies. That's called having bliners on. Your leaders are arrogant, narcissistic, careless, ruthless, and charismatic, just like cult leader gurus. Half the people love them, no doubt. . . . Now you know what it feels like to belong to a cult. The USA has become a cult that violently sexually abuses innocent people (it started with their inquisition of Clinton). In my cult they pretty much stuck to abusing women and children, but these people seem to like to abuse men too. Are these people trying to start World War III with the Moslems? It might be part of their plan. They own the weapons companies, remember. Even Hitler's concentration camps did not sexually abuse people. In my cult the abusers got their jobs by giving big donations. What did those people have to do to get those jobs? Is this a Haliburton thing? You ever feel like our world has been taken over by aliens? This has turned into a cult and we better do something about it or future generations will suffer.


Twin flight link... 17.May.2004 11:41

is not

working.

thankyou for this article 17.May.2004 12:50

@

after this long a time people still don't know how to talk about "it" (wtf?!)it's like if you question the mantra and the "facts" behind it, then it's poo on you. this passenger list thing is ridiculous. i'm sure there is a real one out there...somewhere. questioning and cross-examination is good. amerika IS a cult. cult culture, it klls. and please john cameron, don't compare lemmings to amerikan voters.

**the lemming thing -i hope that wasn't a reference to "suicidal" lemmings (some ppl ACTually think that's true). it wasn't suicidal tendencies that made them run off a cliff -it was disney film makers ('white wilderness' -terrible film "documenation") who tossed them off cos they "wouldn't jump".

Twin Flight 17.May.2004 19:02

ewing2001

The article "Flight 11- The Twin flight" is mirrored on 911physics. You find it, if you scroll down at http://physics911.org/net/modules/weblog/details.php?blog_id=28 It deals more with the departure(s) of the "flights", not with the arrival of the "planes". However, both research fit with each other. The further analysis of the passenger lists lead to the possibility, that the passengers boarded on totally different planes and died "somewhere else" Please check out also 9/11 -The lost "war drill"? (Chapter 2) http://inn.globalfreepress.com/modules/news/index.php?storytopic=4&start=45 The Abu Ghraib-Titan- 9/11 Connection http://inn.globalfreepress.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=165

Gerard on Urban Moving Systems and the Pentagon 17.May.2004 23:10

Already Published

Gerard Israel said,

>>> "Even if a 767 hit the tower- and the video shows quite clearly that it was not"


No Gerard, the video does NOT clearly show that it was NOT a 767, because the video--actual 25fps video (not algorithmicaly compressed pixels)--is not a particularly clear enough resoultion to make a judgement until the camera zooms into the damage after impact, by which time the plane (whatever sort of plane it was) is destroyed, and a large burning hole is all that remains. That hole happens to be rather similar to the hole we saw when a plane that definately looked like a 767 crashed into the second tower.

a) You ommitted the military-precision testimony of Keith Wheelhouse and other C-130 witnesses from your analysis of an arbitrary collection of Pentagon witness reports. Why?


b)Why did you write the following nonsense, Gerard?

>>> "some Israeli kids who were *supposedly* arrested"

 http://emperors-clothes.com/letters/holm.htm

(full debunk here:
 http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/05/288393.shtml)

Curious methods of argument 17.May.2004 23:30

Gerard

My name is not Gerard Israel - I'm not sure where the above anonymous commenter got that from. I'm Gerard Holmgren.

A curious characteristic of those who support the official story is that they always want to distract the issue to something other than what's just been written about. If you write an article on pentagon witnesses, they want to talk about the physical aspects and avoid the witness evidence thats been disclosed. If you write an article about the physical evidence, then sudddenly they want to talk about witnesses. If the article is about video evidence, they want to talk about passengers, and if the article is about passengers, suddenly they're interested in videos again.
This article has the following title.
"Media published fake passenger lists for american Airlines flight 11."

Thats the evidence it presents. It gives some links to rerlated issues, such as video and BTS documetnation.

Because apologists for the mass murdering US gov, can't find any real evidence for their spin, they always restrict themselves to attacks on the linked related issue, rather than the issue under specific discussion.

In any article about video evidence, you can bet that the above commenter will be bleating "what happened to the passengers, then?" , pretending that this piece of research doesn't exist.

So tell me, anonymous debunker - whats your position on the passengers.
Are you claiming that we've ben given the truth about who was on board on the alleged flight? If not , then what specifically is your problem with this article? If so, then please supply the list of names - with documentation.

cult leaders / blind followers 18.May.2004 00:26

Nori exkritter@yahoo.com

Back in the temple there were several levels of knowing. . . . On the outside coating, naive peole like me followed the rules of celibacy, chanting, and so on; worked hard, and thought the teachings were true. That could compare to average Americans who think the leaders are good hearted and would never intentionally do anything dishonest. . . . . On the next level are the skeptics who suspect that something's amiss. That's like us. . . . But the inner circles of the organization were composed of extremely dishonest people, the people living the lie. They were the most pathetic people i've ever known. Over the last 25 years their secrets have been exposed and they have fallen from their lofty pedestals. It takes time and hard work to expose the truth. . . . Get ready for a lot of brainwashed people who will try to shut you up. Don't push against them, find ways to move forward with what you believe is right.


apologist for explosive-tainted Mossad 18.May.2004 09:27

Already Published

quote:
================
>> So tell me, anonymous debunker - whats your position on the passengers.
=====================

Leon Carter from Australia, actually - aka: "Already Published" or "Count Folke Bernadotte" (remember him?)

My position on the passenger lists is that they are very old and plausibly-deniable news ("fake passports"!)--unlike the explosives-tainted Urban Moving Systems activities on 911 that included "fake passports")--and are therefore curious and a little murky, but hardly worth pursuing in excruciating detail.

I note that you didn't address my claim that the video evidence doesn't permit you to say, with confidence, that a 767 didn't hit tower #1.


quote:
=====================================
"In any article about video evidence, you can bet that the above commenter will be bleating "what happened to the passengers, then?", pretending that this piece of research doesn't exist."
======================================

This fallacy is called "posioning the well", Gerard.

My actual response was "My position on the passenger lists is that they are very old and plausibly-deniable news".


I'm interested in knowing why you spread Urban Moving Systems disinformation and hyper-analysis of trivia instead of promoting hard-core incontrovertible facts - eg: the 9.25AM stand-down order published in Time, Spetember 14 - two days after the attacks.


As for NON-trivia:


a) You ommitted the military-precision testimony of Keith Wheelhouse and other C-130 witnesses from your analysis of a seemingly arbitrary collection of Pentagon witness reports. Why?


b)Why did you write the following nonsense?


>>> "some Israeli kids who were *supposedly* arrested" <<<--- curious method of lying

 http://emperors-clothes.com/letters/holm.htm

(full humiliating debunk here:
 http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/05/288393.shtml)

Leon Cater's hilarious rant 18.May.2004 18:13

Gerard

In repsonse to my request to Leon Carter to state his position on the passengers, we got this.

[[very old and plausibly-deniable news". ]]

Can you translate this gibberish, please, Leon ? My question was:

Do you believe that we've been told the truth about who was on board the alleged plane? Yes or no? It's a very simple straight forward question. Please answer it. If yes, what specifically is your problem with this research? If no,please provide the list of names with documentation. Why are you to frightened to state your position clearly?

As for Leon's "humiliating debunk"

 http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/05/288393.shtml)

I suggest people read it for themselves. It is indeed quite humiliating for Leon. Its quite a hoot. Leon has been posting this exact same message all over IMC, whenever the topic of Sept 11 comes up. It seems to be his opus magnum, so brilliantly researched and written that he feels no need to move on.

I've now worked out that his reference to me as "Gerard israel " was actually meant to be a attempt at what passes for wit in Leon's mind.

The fact that I questioned the authenticity of claims that Israeli's were arrested for cheering at the WTC disaster, somehow makes me an apologist for Mossad. If one properly researches the documentation for this story, one will find several contradictions and uncertainties. It may have happened, but it is far from established fact. The poor quality of documentation in Leon's Opus Magnum refelects this.

However, before Leon expires from the apoplexy he's currently having over my alleged Mossad sympathies, let me state my position on this clearly.

I believe that the Israeli govt and intelligence services definitely knew about sept 11 before hand. There's considerable evidence for that. Whether they were actually involved in logisitcal support for it is questionable. Its a plausible suggestion, but there's little in the way of direct evidence. Certainaly they are playing a criminal role in covering up the truth and using it as an excuse for their own brutality against the Palestinians. But then again, pretty much every country in the world is aiding the cover up, for their own reasons. The govts of Australia, Britian and Pakistan also knew before hand, and its equally plausible to suggest that they may have assisted in some way, although again the evidence for that is scarce. But Leon doesn't seem interested in those three countries.

The Israeli govt is an awful bunch of murdering criminals. That doesn't prove anything about how much they were or were not directly involved in Sept 11. The Chinese and Russian govts aren't so flash either, but no one's accusing them of doing sept 11 - just because they're bad people. One has to produce evidence. The quality of such evidence in relation to Israel can be reviewed at Leon's hilarious Opus Magnum as linked above.

I like it when the Tellytubblers like Leon tell lies about me. It shows how desperate they are, that they can't find in a hole in my research, so they have to resort to misrepresenting me to justify their shift with troll central.

Take this lie for example.

[[your analysis of a seemingly arbitrary collection of Pentagon witness reports]]

If one actually reads my article

 http://hamilton.indymedia.org:8081/front.php3?article_id=1786&group=webcast

you'll find that it was anything but arbitary. I spent a considerable amount of time in the intro to the article, specifiying the exact parameters of my research. Someone like Leon wouldn't understand the importance of qualifying parameters of research. What I was looking for - specifically - was reports which appeared to be someone claiming that they had actually seen a large jet hit the building. Thats all. People who actually saw the collision.
I then searched both the web and Lexis Nexus using various keywords in an attempt to find as many such reports as I could. And then analyzed them. There was never any guarentee that I'd find everything, but I searched as thoroughly as possible. It also needs to be remembered that this was the first serious effort by anyone to properly assess witness reports as to whether a large plane actually hit the building. Prior to that, we had heard vague cries of "but there were hundreds of witnesses!" without anybody bothering to actually systematically research the question. I was the first to do so. And I missed Wheelhouse's report. Horrors !

Except... I didn't miss it. It just didn't come within the paramters of my research. Why? For two reasons. 1) It was a second hand report. It came not from Wheelhouse himself, but his sister. I had a consistent policy in the article of not using second hand reports. Hearsay peddlers like Leon wouldn't understand such research standards. 2) There was no claim of actually having seen the jet hit the building. As stated in the intro, I was only interested in reports where the witness actually claimed - in quotes - not paraphrased or inserted by the media - to have seen the plane hit the building.

That doesn't mean that such reports are useless to any inquiry. but they simply didn't fall within the parameters of that particular article - parametetrs which were clearly stated at the beginning. Hearsay peddlars like Leon don't understand the importance of carefully deconstructing the different aspects of evidence before trying to put them all back together for a complete picture.

Check some of the links for Keith Wheelhouse below, and view them in the context of the introduction to my article, where i gaver some exapmles of reports I chose not to consider, and you'll see what I'm talking about.

 link to www.911review.org

 http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/linkscopy/C130sawF772P.html

 http://www.voxfux.com/features/other_pentagon_plane.htm

It would help,Leon if actually read my articles properly and summarized them accurately.

Now to Leon's ludicrous claim that a 767 hit the Nth tower of the WTC. Look at the size of the object for a start. Poor resolution does not change the size of an object. The wingspan of a 767 is approximately 2/3 the width of the tower. Nowhere near it. A 767 also can't fly in the divebombing kind of motion that we see on the video.

Leon resorts to inventing new properties of video in claiming that poor resolution changes - by orders of magnitude- the sizes of specifically selected objects in the video - but not others. Having established this delusion, he then concludes that because one can't really tell what it is, that its plauisble to speculate - amongst other possiblities - that it could be a 767, and from there proceeds to the extrapolation that the existence of the mythical plane is proven.

"Aha!" I can't see a 767 in the video ! That proves that it was there!"

Witness reports overwhelmingly support a small plane or missile - (as seen the video) - and a sonic boom before the impact, indicating some kind of supersonic object. Official aviation records say there was no such flight as AA11 that day, and the media resorted to publishing fake passenger lists for the alleged flight. So what's left of the 767 story?

Ahh...CNNN and the US govt tells us it was a 767 - so people like Leon believe it.

Now that I've answered Leon's questions - more throuropughly than he deserved - its time for him to answer mine.

1) Are you claiming that reliable passenger lists exist for the Alleged AA 11. Yes or no?

2)Why do continually ignore the fact that according to Bureau of transportation records, there was no such flight as AA 11 on Sept 11 ?

3)Since you've admitted that the object on the video doesn't look like a 767, you can't produce any witness reports to a large jet being responsible, you can't produce any avaition record saying that the alleged plane flew that day, and can't produce a passenger list for the alleged flight, what specifically is your evidence that it was a 767?

BTW - that the media and govt tell us so, doesn't count as evidence.

Plausible Denial and the procedural step-by-step algorithm of "proof" 18.May.2004 23:24

Goedel's Theorem of Incompleteness (Already Published)

>>> and from there proceeds to the extrapolation THAT THE EXISTENCE of the MYTHICAL PLANE [!] is PROVEN.


Shall I highlight *all* the bold-faced lies you produced, Gerard?

check html! (fix) 18.May.2004 23:28

Already Published

>>>amongst other possiblities - that it could be a 767,

I'm afraid it could be a 767 Gerard. Not that I'm saying it definately IS or ISN'T, as you seem so dangerously obsessed with doing. I have the uncompressed video - would you like a few high-res non-compressed stills?


the Emperor Wears No Clothes

Reader: "I'm Unimpressed with Attempts to Link Israel and 9-11"
[Posted 15 September 2002]
=======================================

Dear Emperor's Clothes,

There's a disturbing trend developing among some activists concerned with Sept 11. They seem obsessed with trying to implicate Israel. Myself, I'll listen to any evidence with an open mind, but I'm concerned at the readiness of otherwise rational, ethical people to jump at these accusations on the flimsiest pretexts. There's a fair bit of this stuff floating around the net. I've read a lot of it, and haven't been impressed by the quality of the evidence.

The text below is from a letter on the subject, which I recently sent to one of my networks.

Best regards,
Gerard Holmgren
Australia

I'm Unimpressed with Attempts to Link Israel and 9-11
by Gerard Holmgren

Regarding Israel's alleged involvement in September 11th let me first state that I'm open to anything but I want to see evidence. Everything I've seen on this accusation has been at besthighly circumstantial and speculative and at worst completely without foundation.

Five Men Detained As Suspected Conspirators
Eight hours after terrorists struck Manhattan's tallest skyscrapers, police in Bergen County detained five men who they said were found carrying maps linking them to the blasts. The five men, who were in a van stopped on Route 3 in East Rutherford around 4:30 p.m., were being questioned by police but had not been charged with any crime late Tuesday.

However, sources close to the investigation said they found other evidence linking the men to the bombing plot. "There are maps of the city in the car with certain places highlighted," the source said. "It looked like they're hooked in with this. It looked like they knew what was going to happen when they were at Liberty State Park."

Sources also said that bomb-sniffing dogs reacted as if they had detected explosives. The FBI seized the van for further testing, authorities said. Bergen Record, September 12, 2001 (copy)

The White Van
Said one of the men, denying that they were laughing or happy on the morning of Sept. 11, "The fact of the matter is we are coming from a country that experiences terror daily. Our purpose was to document the event." ABC June 21, 2002

Spies, or students?
Were the Israelis just trying to sell their paintings, or agents in a massive espionage ring? Ha'Aretz, May 14, 2002

Suspicious Activities Involving Israeli Art Students at DEA Facilities
Drug Enforcement Administration Office of Security, June, 2001
In January, 2001, the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA), Office of Security Programs (IS), began to receive reports of Israeli art students attempting to penetrate several DEA Field Offices in the continental United States. Additionally, there have been reports of Israeli art students visiting the homes of numerous DEA employees. These incidents have occurred since at least the beginning of 2000, and have continued to the present DEA

Spy Rumors Fly on Gusts of Truth
Americans Probing Reports of Israeli Espionage

Despite angry denials by Israel and its American supporters, reports that Israel was conducting spying activities in the United States may have a grain of truth, the Forward has learned.[...]

According to one former high-ranking American intelligence official, who asked not to be named, the FBI came to the conclusion at the end of its investigation that the five Israelis arrested in New Jersey last September (Sivan and Paul Kurzberg, Oded Ellner, Omer Marmari and Yaron Shmuel) were conducting a Mossad surveillance mission and that their employer, Urban Moving Systems of Weehawken, N.J., served as a front.[...]

In addition to their strange behavior and their Middle Eastern looks, the suspicions were compounded when a box cutter and $4,000 in cash were found in the van. Moreover, one man carried two passportsand another had fresh pictures of the men standing with the smoldering wreckage of the World Trade Center in the background.[...]

On December 7, a New Jersey judge ruled that the state could seize the goods remaining inside the warehouse. The state also has a lawsuit pending against Urban Moving Systems and its owner, Dominik Otto Suter, an Israeli citizen. The FBI questioned Mr. Suter once. However, he left the country afterward and went back to Israel before further questioning. Mr. Suter declined through his lawyer to be interviewed for this article.[...] Charlene Eban, a spokeswoman for the FBI in Washington, and Don Nelson, a Justice Department spokesman, said they had no knowledge of an Israeli spying operation.

"If we found evidence of unauthorized intelligence operations, that would be classified material," added Jim Margolin, a spokesman for the FBI in New York. Forward, February, 2002

Dominik Suter of Mossad on an FBI List of September 11 Suspects (large pdf)

First: One thing I've heard a lot is the question, "Who has the most the to gain?"

This doesn't constitute evidence. It merely constitutes grounds for inquiry.

The moment the Sept. 11 attacks happened, I knew that the US would use it for it's strategic agenda, but I never regarded that as evidence of the complicity [of the US establishment].

It took me a month of reading Illarion Bykov and Jared Israel's articles on the standing-down of the U.S. Air Force and the behavior of Bush on the morning before I was convinced. That's what I call evidence, not vague generalizations about who might have the most to gain.

5 Israelis detained for `puzzling behavior' after WTC tragedy
Five Israelis who had worked for a moving company based in New Jersey are being held in U.S. prisons for what the Federal Bureau of Investigation has described as "puzzling behavior" following the terror attack on the World Trade Center in New York last Tuesday.[...] They are said to have had been caught videotaping the disaster and shouting in what was interpreted as cries of joy and mockery.Ha'Aretz, September 17, 2001

Even so, I can't really see what Israel had to gain. We know what the US stood to gain. Cheap oil, strategic influence for a long-standing imperialist policy agenda, and profits from arms trading.

Israel's agenda is completely different and far less duplicitous. Its main concern has been securing its borders....

Unlike the forked tongue propaganda of the US, Israel makes it quite clear and open what its agenda is. It pursues it ruthlessly so what you see is what you get. I see no evidence of a shadowy covert strategic chess game of the type the US plays.

"kee betachbulot ta'ase lecha milchama"
"By way of deception thou shalt do war"

http://i-cias.com/e.o/ill/mossad_crest.gif

"Ha'Mossad Le'modiein"
"The institute for the collection of Information"


When I wrote these things- [these instructions to the embassies to frame Arabs for Israeli terrorist attacks against U.S. targets in Egypt] - I still didn't know how crushing is the evidence that was
ALREADY PUBLISHED
refuting our official version. The huge amounts of arms and explosives, the tactics of the attack, the blocking and mining of the roads ... the precise coordination of the attack. Who would be foolish enough to believe that such a complicated operation could "develop" from a casual and sudden attack on an Israeli army unit by an Egyptian unit?
- Moshe Sharett, Prime Minister of Israel 1954 & 1955.


This web site is dedicated to the memory of thirty-four fine young men
who gave their lives on June 8, 1967, defending the USS Liberty
against a sustained air and sea attack by the armed forces of the State of Israel

I fail to see how engineering a war between the US and Afghanistan or the US and Iraq provides anything useful to Israel.

In Washington, Team Chalabi is led by Deputy Secretary of Defense [zionist] Paul Wolfowitz and [zionist] Richard Perle, the neoconservative strategist who heads the Pentagon's Defense Policy Board. Chalabi's partisans run the gamut from far right to extremely far right, with key supporters in most of the Pentagon's Middle-East policy offices -- such as Peter Rodman, Douglas Feith, David Wurmser and Michael Rubin. Also included are key staffers in Vice President Dick Cheney's office, not to mention Defense Secretary Donald [so-called occupied territories] Rumsfeld and former CIA Director Jim Woolsey.

The Washington partisans who want to install Chalabi in Arab Iraq are also those associated with the staunchest backers of Israel, particularly those aligned with the hard-right faction of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and former Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. Chalabi's cheerleaders include the Washington Institute for Near East Policy (WINEP) and the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs (JINSA).
http://www.prospect.org/print/V13/21/dreyfuss-r.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Free Iraqi Resistance Calling on Jewry For Support in Quest to Depose Saddam

Allies of Chalabi Meet Ambassador Gold, Warn of White House Folly
By SETH GITELL FORWARD STAFF

[...]
An adviser to INC chairman Ahmad Chalabi, Francis Brooke, and a research fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, David Wurmser, met with Israel's permanent representative to the United Nations, Dore Gold, last Friday to begin the process of getting Israel to back the INC. Representatives of the group have also met with a spokesman for Prime Minister Netanyahu, David Bar-Illan.

Domestically, the INC advisers believe that the core of America's organized Jewish community could rally the requisite amount of political support for the Iraqi opposition group to enable it to successfully challenge Saddam Hussein.
[...]

With regard to the American Jewish community, [Richard] Perle said: "There's no question that the Jewish community's been at the forefront with the legislation with regard to Iran. One can only speculate what it might accomplish if it decided to focus its attention on Saddam Hussein."
http://www.forward.com/BACK/1998/98.07.31/news.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Bush aide: Inspections or not, we'll attack Iraq

Exclusive By Paul Gilfeather, Whitehall Editor


GEORGE Bush's top security adviser last night admitted the US would attack Iraq even if UN inspectors fail to find weapons.

Dr Richard Perle stunned MPs by insisting a "clean bill of health" from UN chief weapons inspector Hans Blix would not halt America's war machine.
mirrorUK
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Netanyahu says Iraq-Israel oil line not pipe-dream.

LONDON, June 20 (Reuters) - Israeli Finance Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said he expects an oil pipeline from Iraq to Israel to be reopened in the near future after being closed when Israel became a state in 1948. - "It won't be long when you see Iraqi oil flowing to Haifa", the port city in Northern Israel, Netanyahu told a group of British investors, declining to give a timetable.
Reuters

In fact the reverse. All Israel has gained out of Sept 11 is a certain amount of political justification for going a bit harder against the Palestinians, and I find it preposterous to suggest that they would use the convoluted route of engineering Sept 11 for this purpose. First, they have a much richer source of justification in the terrorist bombings of Palestinian extremists than in any marginal increase in justification for attacking "terrorism" in general in the aftermath of Sept 11. And any ga