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US Torture: PLEASE. Somebody fucking DO SOMETHING.

The latest pictures are in, the latest horror stories. Children raped and brutalized in front of helpless parents. People attacked with dogs, with broom handles, with unimaginable physical and psychological assaults. Sadistic sexual tortures right out of the sickest x rated snuff film. SOMEBODY FUCKING DO SOMETHING.
We can no longer plead ignorance. We can no longer pretend we didn't know what was really going on behind the walls of US torture camps in Cuba, Iraq, Afghanistan, and let's be frank, here in the US as well. It's all right there, in lurid color detail, complete with horrific narratives. And the worst part: Those who are leading this nation knew about it all along. They knew, but they did not care. Human rights observers screamed the truth at them, but they did not listen, because it didn't matter to them. And we didn't listen, because there were no pictures and it was too horrific to believe.

Well now we know. What will we do about it? If you think we can just wait for a solution, you haven't seen the pictures yet. If you think the system will work it out, you haven't read the stories. People have been living in the depths of hell behind the walls of Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo Bay, and "domestic" prisons all over the United States. While we've been sitting on our asses watching CNN reporter/generals describe the technological prowess of our great military machine, listening to hero-worshipping propaganda about "our troops," those troops have been sadistically torturing people to death. While the hawks here have been justifying an unjustifiable war by reminding us that Saddam Hussein tortured people, they were conveniently leaving out the part about George Bush and Donald Rumsfeld torturing people.

One of the lessons here: People have no right to any power over other people. They can't handle it, and all their sickest evil comes to the surface. It's the Stanford prison experiment, only in real life with a vengeance. (Remember Philip Zimbardo's experiment with college students, some of whom were assigned to be guards and some prisoners? The experiment had to be called off early, because the guards became so sadistic toward the "prisoners" that fears for their safety emerged.)

Yes, so now we know. What will we do? If the world had a conscience, troops from all over Europe and Asia would be flooding into Cuba, Iraq and Afghanistan to break down the walls of the prison camps and free the people from the clutches of the US imperialist beast. I'm BEGGING the world: DO SOMETHING. Do not forget this abuse, do not let another "commission," another "inquest" distract us until we forget. DO SOMETHING.

sorry, too busy 09.May.2004 10:34

typical American

i've gotta watch the last episode of "Friends" and go buy some shit (manufactured in China) at Wal-Mart.

Sounds like it's time for massive protests 09.May.2004 10:52

e

and when they show the 50 morons across the street waving flags and try to pretend the country is equally divided, we need to make sure 100,000 feet stomp those bully morons into a pancake. Enough is enough.

I with you, Radical Element 09.May.2004 10:59

PHH

But what the hell do we do? The big problem is that most of the public is brainwashed and asleep. I cannot even awaken my own brother. How in the hell do we do anything about their masters?

its policy 09.May.2004 11:05

ru

the abuse is policy, not random acts. I've been saying this since day one, and only now people are starting to figure it out.

you won't change policy by marching, you will only change it by voting, and for the right people, not the ones likey to win.

as far as getting made at the "50" counter-protesters and beating them up, well maybe there is a job waiting for you in Military Intel in Iraq..

fully agree with PHH and Radical Element 09.May.2004 11:07

same old story

already discussed it here:


typical american is right 09.May.2004 11:16

Roi

Most americans don't give a shit about politics, or world events. The latest spin on this is this:

"If parading a few dozen iraqis around naked keeps me safe, then so be it."

And allot of people are starting to say they are mad at Bush for apologizing.

So, if you are perplexed by this, well read what typical american wrote, and study it well. Its pretty close to being correct.

i expect the 50 flag waving morons 09.May.2004 11:35

better be on my side of moron street

since i'll be protesting the abomination of sodomizing prisoners with whatever's handy, before their children think they're total, sickening hypocrites, since all 50 of them were surely out there flapping the flag in protest at the thought of legally married same-sex couples.

once you're become a total sickening hypocrite in the eyes of your children, don't expect to dispense good advice to your children like "don't drive drunk," and have anyone listen to a word of it.

but i'm sure this must be appauling on both sides of the fence. maybe it will begin to become apparent that god did NOT author the war in iraq, that's just bush's lying lips moving. maybe we can get the pope to weigh in on this, or just ask Falwell types straight on what they and god must think of a stick up a inmate's bum. and don't think it's over when the court martials start, what will be over is the handy supply of pics and videos starring the perpetrators themselves. it'll be don't ask don't tell from from there.

later on, we can work on the 10 commandments... you know, that "thou shalt not kill" stuff, and maybe we can quit protesting that from opposite sides of the street. the abuse is not quite the most abominable thing that happened during the iraq war, and it would also be pretty hypocritical to condemn abuse and condone murder. maybe it will start to dawn on some of them that most of the killing is as unjustified as the abuse is. what have they got left, "support our troops, send them whips"? no, as it turns out i think the protesters have been on the same side the whole time and some of them didn't quite get that.

dunno, an AP-Ipsos poll shows bush's approval for policy took only a 5 point dive for this and is still at around 50%, i'm really starting to think they are outrageously rigged, these polls. the approval was reading below that even before the scandal broke. i get the feeling that unbeknownst to some of us, bush is a lot less popular than his media buddies would like us to think, and it may make a lead-in to masking a rigged election. watch out for that, because a lot of people are to drink bush cola if and only if they think that's what everyone else is drinking, so how long can approval of bush or his policies be at around 50% and then dive another 5% over and over and over again, without being way below 50%?

americans couldn't be as dumb, backwards, and hypocritical as the polls are making them out to be, could they?

SOMETHING YOU DO...VISIT OR PHONE A POLITICIAN NOW 09.May.2004 11:51

War Booty Defered

Not enough to keep lists of Bush collaborators for justice come the day the regime is finally toppled...although you can do that privately... Rumsfeld is feeling the heat this weekend and he should have to resign or be fired by next week. European "allies" are demanding this. A few thousand Americans should help push him over the edge. Go see your "liberal" Oregon congressman. Walk write into the office and let the staff of the elected person know that there is a little problem here. Or phone. But don't email. Phone, so the aid can tell you are pissed just by the polite tone of your voice. Congress needs to act. Then the U.N. War Crimes Tribunal needs to figure out a way to get hands on the American/Nazi's responsible. Bush and Rumsfeld eventually need more than retirement of course, they need to hang, after a fair international trial. Don't think it will happen? Germans were pretty cocky too, when the Panzers were rolling and the booty from Poland was selling cheap in Berlin. But every Hitler has an eventual Stalingrad...or should I say Falluja...

Time to protest the baby killing, torturing US soldiers 09.May.2004 12:07

bender

The Vietnam war was shut down by protestors. They not only protested the government, they protested the soldiers commiting the atrocities.

The time has come to welcome home the troops with loud and pointed protest of the evil they are guilty of. When they start asking "why do they hate us?" the truth may be clear.

The US has joined Saddam in the perpetration of evil upon the people of Iraq.

NOT QUITE, 'bender' 09.May.2004 12:15

the Vietnam War

was lost when U.S. Army enlisted men began wide-scale fragging and mutinies against their NCOs and commanding officers.

massive domestic street demonstrations and unfavorable media coverage were only the prelude.

Welll 09.May.2004 12:15

Catalina Eddie

Were putting Saddam on trial, most likely to execute him, for killing and torturing folks. Now, I doubt that Saddam ever touched a bamboo splint or car battery, at least while he was dictator. He probably only directly killed a few people, but all that happened on his watch, so he probably is gonna die for it. Right? That will make it all better...

Now Saddam had a dictatorship while we have an oligarchy. Does that mean we can put the whole bunch of murderers and torturers on trial and execute them? I'm beginning to think the Reign of Terror after the French Revolution wasn't entirely such a bad thing after all

Vancouver, USA

trusting the technology of the torturers 09.May.2004 12:17

the prisoner

>> starting to think they are outrageously rigged, these polls.

The result was concordant with our polling.
Therefore, you should not question the result of the inscrutable, faith-based blackbox voting systems.
Trust us!
======================


Not the torturer shall scare me
Nor the body's final fall
Nor the barrels of death's rifles
Nor the shadows on the wall
Nor the night when to the ground
The last dim star of pain is hurled
But the blind indifference
of a merciless
unfeeling
world

(anon)

we need a demonstration.. and we need it now 09.May.2004 13:15

Crucified Ego

I could ramble about the atrocities committed by our troops, sElected officials, and media, but that's already been covered, and you already know about it. We need to plan a demonstration. we need to let washington know that this is not acceptable. Despite what 'polls' and politicians say, the informed public is AGAINST this war, and certainly against violations of the geneva convention. Let's get this going.. make a plan, take action, be heard.

-J

One Vote 09.May.2004 13:49

Joe

As a newly disillusioned American saddened and sickened by what my Government is doing, please allow me to humbly submit to your board the following. It is not a good feeling, I am finding out, to be ashamed of your country, but ashamed I am.


5-07-04

One Vote


A veiled woman wails next to the shattered body of a Husband killed by an explosion he never saw.
One vote.
A grim-faced father sinks a shovel into his native soil, his jaw set in anguish, to bury a child lost to war.
One vote.
Visions of death permeate the airwaves and bandwidths of this world. Innocent people die day after day in an attempt to satiate a blood lust of a ruler whom I voted for.
One vote.
No apology for casting such a vote will erase images of small children maimed and mangled by bombs and bullets.
One vote.
Each image I see becomes my own Son. My beautiful, loving, laughing Son's face replaces those of countless other Father's heartbreak half a world away. I can only try to imagine the heart-rending torture a parent must endure when they are forced to dig through the twisted steel and bombed-out rubble that once was their home, knowing they will find only sorrow at the bottom.
One vote.
Perhaps this is the penance for one vote cast wrongly, the small price I pay for punching a tiny piece of chaff.
One vote.
News reaches me of atrocities committed by the very troops I have supported all of my life. No amount of frustration caused by a long detachment, heat and separation from family can excuse the beating of children, the rape of women, the degradation and torture of men.
One vote.
When a warrior takes up arms, life becomes kill-or-be-killed. This is understood by and ingrained into every solder around the world, at any time in history. But when innocent families are caught in the wave of hatred and forced to pay for a war they never wanted with their blood and lives, the heroes become villains. The rescuer becomes the tormentor.
One vote.
When I hear the rhetoric on my radio and streaming from my television that tries to justify acts that are comparable to Nazi Germany, I find myself doing something that I never thought was possible for me. Me, the proud American Son of an American Veteran, hang my head in shame for what MY military has done under orders of a man I helped put into power. I now see my administration, finally, for what it is. Henchmen for hire.
One vote.
One fucking vote.



Thank you all for reading and thank you Indymedia for a site that opens eyes!

Joe

RE: Bender 09.May.2004 14:13

WF

You got it backwards. The Vietnam war was *extended* by about 7 years because of protests on college campuses. The NVA was on the brink of throwing in the towel in 66 (or 67?), but became emboldened when they realized that the 5th column in the US might actually help their cause.

That's just another fact that people like you conveniently fail to acknowledge.

It's time to raise hell 09.May.2004 14:34

er

The time for touchy feely protest has come and gone. It's time to hit the streets and bring it all to a grinding halt.

dream on 'WF' - 09.May.2004 14:58

the Vietnam war

was lost because GIs began fragging their commanders with increasing intensity. "Blaming" demonstrators - and even more ludicrously asserting that NVA was ready to "throw in the towel 66/67" - is total ignorance of history and reality.

ever heard of the Tet offensive, or VietCong?

DO SOMETHING!!! 09.May.2004 15:05

I'm In

FUCKING YES. DO something. WHat will we do?

Where is the UN? Where are the Marines? Oh yeh, they're the ones perpetuating this monstrous madness. Who will save us? Who will save the prisoners? It's up to us.

What will we do? I don't even know, but we must find the way. Storm the walls of the prisons, break the people free. Scream this story from the rooftops until it drowns out the glory-mongering corporate media warlords. SCREAM. ...and ACT.

My God, I so apologize to the world for what America is. I so apologize for not having done enough to stop this before it came to this. I plead that somehow, this small voice will be heard out there somewhere, that people will know that most of us DO NOT support what this country is doing all over the world IN OUR NAMES. I have been born in America, and I have unwittingly lived off the backs of others all this time, and I have turned a blind eye to things I should have known were happening in the world. I swear it all off on this day. I cannot help where I was born, but I can stop supporting this madness. I can scream this story, I can boycott every last American product, I can wean myself from the oil industry, I can swear off the privilege of birth that I did not earn. What more can I do? Because these things are not enough. Somehow, we MUST find a way to get the prisoners out of the prisons.

It is time to act. Please, let us somehow focus our thoughts and strength to find a way to fix this. To free the prisoners, to send Rumsfeld and George W Bush to a war crimes tribunal. These crimes are crimes against humanity. Somehow, we must find a way to DO SOMETHING. Crying just isn't helping them. There must be something more we can do.

How much Ass do you have? 09.May.2004 15:24

roi

How much Ass do you have?


The war in Vietnam ended because the Vietnamese decided they had more ASS than the Americans.

Some victories are because of overwhelming firepower one side possesses, but most are because one side has a larger desire to win than another.

This is not a knock on the American Solider, it's a fact that most people will fight harder to defend their homes than a foreign solider will.

Vietnam didn't end because of Fragging. There is no wide spread evidence of Fragging in Vietnam. It happened, but nowhere near to the extent the UFO / Aluminum foil hat websites would like you believe.

In the end the US decided that It wasn't worth the effort and couldn't compete with the birthrate of a third-world nation when it came to throwing men and materials into the effort. There was a collapse in moral of the troops there, and discipline was beginning to break down, but that's a long way from killing your commanders.

In the end, American's changed tactics and decided that a military conflict wasn't the answer, and today capitalism reigns supreme in Vietnam, and like China its is a communist country in name only.

Wow 09.May.2004 15:40

We Even Digusted Kuwait?

Meanwhile, our tanks roll into downtown Karbala and the news tries to whisper about it. Better Bush's scandal be abuses than people finally getting sick of raiding whole cities over some very understandable
"insurgents"... this was not on the front pages today that I saw...

*******

New accusations blunt Bush's bid to quell Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal

Sun May 9, 4:23 AM ET Add Mideast - AFP to My Yahoo!

WASHINGTON (AFP) - An apology by President George W. Bush (news - web sites) for the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by US troops failed to quell the anger of US allies, while fighting between coalition forces and supporters of a radical Shiite Muslim cleric spread southward in Iraq (news - web sites).

Bush sought in his weekly Saturday radio address to play down the extent of abuse of Iraqis held at the Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad, blaming "a small number of American servicemen and women."

"These individuals had been given the responsibility of overseeing Iraqis in American custody, and doing so in a decent and humane manner, consistent with US law and the Geneva Conventions (on the rules of war)," said Bush, who had apologized earlier in the week.

"Instead, we have seen shameful images of prisoners being subjected to abuse and humiliation," he said.

The British government, Bush's staunchest ally in the Iraq war, became further mired in the scandal, with three British papers publishing allegations of abuse by British troops.

The Daily Mirror published claims that members of the Queen's Lancashire Regiment had made photo CDs of beatings in Iraq to keep as souvenirs. The Independent quoted a former Iraqi prisoner as saying he had been beaten on the neck, chest and genitals by soldiers from the regiment.

And the Sunday Telegraph reported that British troops at the centre of the allegations have been ordered to hand over every photograph they took in Iraq.

US officials acknowledge the images that have emerged since April 28 of Iraqi prisoners in sexually explicit and degrading poses have seriously damaged US standing, particularly in the Muslim world.

The foreign minister of Italy, a top US ally in the war, delivered some of the harshest criticism.

"This torture is a disgrace to the coalition of which we are a part and which is supposed to help the rebirth of a free Iraq," said Franco Frattini.

Swiss Foreign Minister Micheline Calmy-Rey summoned the US and British ambassadors to express "disgust and anger" at the revelations of mistreatment, the Foreign Ministry said.

Kuwait said the conduct of the US military amounted to "crimes against humanity."

Malaysia demanded tough punishment for those responsible, and German Foreign Minister Joshka Fischer called the photos "disgusting."

In testimony Friday to congressional committees, US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld apologized for the abuses -- but issued a chilling warning that worse was yet to emerge.

He said the Pentagon (news - web sites) was in possession of more photos and videos from Abu Ghraib prison -- which he had seen -- and which were even more "blatantly sadistic" and "hard to believe" than those already published.

Saudi Arabia's Arab News daily became the latest newspaper to call for Rumsfeld to step down, dismissing his apology for the abuse.

Iraq, the paper opined, "is a country lurching toward chaos while the people some hoped would help to save it ... now stand revealed as liars, torturers and murderers."

In Iraq Saturday, days of fighting between coalition forces and militiamen loyal to the wanted Shiite cleric Moqtada Sadr spread from the central Shiite holy cities of Najaf and Karbala to the southern port of Basra.

Five Sadr fighters were reported killed and nine British soldiers wounded in Basra and the town of Amara, further north.

US troops clashed with Sadr militia in Karbala, encircling the city center with tanks. Gunbattles in Karbala and Najaf on Friday killed 20 Sadr loyalists.

In separate incidents, three members of a family were killed in a bomb attack on a policeman's house near Baqubah, northeast of Baghdad, and two Polish soldiers with the US-led coalition died in a mine explosion and a road accident.

The unrelenting violence and the prisoner abuse scandal have thrown into disarray plans for a smooth handover of power scheduled for June 30.

Some 500 eminent Iraqis opposed to the occupation met in Baghdad to set up a political force to rival the US-appointed Iraqi Governing Council, just as the United Nations (news - web sites) special envoy to Iraq, Lakhdar Brahimi, was meeting council members to discuss the transfer of sovereignty on June 30.

The group of moderate Shiites, Sunnis and Arab nationalists called for an end to the occupation, vowed to boycott political groups set up by the United States, demanded a stronger army and requested talks with Brahimi.

Brahimi told council members he wanted to work with them in planning the interim government, which will rule Iraq from July 1 until elections in held in January, a coalition official told AFP.

Brahimi was responding to detractors, particularly among the council's Shiite members, who object to the UN's direct involvement in planning the country's next government.

They are particularly concerned about reports that Brahimi intends to invite technocrats to form the interim government, leaving council members to contest the January elections.

burs/aln/ch

 link to news.yahoo.com
 link to www.bangladesh-web.com

Another Article 09.May.2004 15:45

Kuwait's Thoughts In A Little More Detail

 http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1104358.htm

US allies vent anger over Iraqi prisoner abuses

US allies, including Arab states, have responded with fresh outrage over the abuse of Iraqi prisoners, despite apologies for the scandal from United States President George W Bush and Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

Egyptian and Bahraini MPs strongly denounced the abuses, as did Kuwait's Government.

All three countries are notably US allies in the volatile region, and the Gulf states provide support to the American military.

Italy's Foreign Minister Franco Frattini, a leading US ally in the war, delivered some of the harshest criticism.

"This torture is a disgrace to the coalition of which we are a part and which is supposed to help the rebirth of a free Iraq," Mr Frattini said.

German Foreign Minister Joshka Fischer called the photos "disgusting".

Arab media were similarly unimpressed with Mr Rumsfeld's acceptance of responsibility for the abuses, with one Saudi newspaper calling for nothing short of his resignation.

Egypt's People's Assembly called the abuses at the Abu Ghraib prison outside Baghdad "torture" and demanded those responsible be harshly punished, said the state news agency MENA.

The deputies "denounced in the strongest terms the crimes of torture, the rape of women and the sexual abuse committed by the occupation troops against civilians and detainees in Iraq," it said.

They urged the international community to intervene to stop such "flagrant violations of human rights" and also urged a "rapid" end of the occupation of Iraq and the installation of an elected government.

In Bahrain, which hosts the US Navy's Fifth Fleet, the parliament issued a statement saying it had followed the saga "with much sadness".

It said it "vigorously condemns these savage acts against the most basic human rights ... and asks the coalition forces, especially the United States, to punish those implicated in these acts".

Kuwait said the conduct of the US military amounted to "crimes against humanity".

In comments published Saturday, Kuwait's Foreign Minister Sheikh Mohammed al-Sabah said the abuse recalled the brutality suffered by hundreds of Kuwaitis at the same Abu Ghraib jail under Saddam Hussein's rule.

"For us in Kuwait, the abuse scandal means a lot. It reminds us of the brutal actions carried out by Saddam Hussein's regime in this prison in particular," the minister told Al-Rai Al-Aam daily.

The conduct of the US military amounted to "crimes against humanity," Sheikh Mohammed said.

Kuwait was occupied by Iraqi troops for seven months from August 1990.

So far it has identified the remains of 110 POWs out of 600 people taken prisoner.

The emirate was the main launch pad for the six-week spring invasion of Iraq and is currently home to some 25,000 troops to support Iraqi operations.

Both Mr Bush and Mr Rumsfeld have offered apologies to Iraqis and promised action against the perpetrators.

But the US President insisted in a national radio address that only a few soldiers were involved.

Mr Rumsfeld, meanwhile, testified before Congress Friday to the existence of "blatantly sadistic" pictures from Abu Ghraib and a US senator said cases of murder and rape were likely to emerge.

Mr Rumsfled also pledged an outside review of the investigations to determine whether additional probes were needed and warned more photos and two videos contain further damaging images.

The British government, Bush's staunchest ally in the Iraq war, became further mired in the scandal, with three British papers publishing allegations of abuse by British troops.

The Mirror shed claims that members of the Queen's Lancashire Regiment had made photo CDs of beatings in Iraq to keep as souvenirs. Independent reported a former Iraqi prisoner as saying he had been beaten on the neck, chest and genitals by soldiers from the regiment.

In Riyadh, the English-language Arab News said that "Rumsfeld's suggestion that an independent inquiry be set up into what happened is a waste of time, and Iraqis simply do not have time to waste".

"Rumsfeld can worry over how it all came about during his retirement from politics which ought to start in the next few days," it said.

"Whether he meant US soldiers to behave in such a bestial way to their prisoners is immaterial. It happened while he was in charge.

"If he resigns without fuss, perhaps he may begin to redeem himself by making a tiny contribution to the restoration of America's good name in the world," the paper concluded.

Saudi's Al-Watan newspaper, meanwhile, said that what is taking place in Iraqi prisons and elsewhere proves American "disrespect" for Arabs and Muslims.

"We hope that the conscience of the President is revived, however late," it said in an editorial.

Arab "allies"? 09.May.2004 15:59

roi

their public "outrage" is a joke. its designed for internal consumption.

you should see what these countries do to their own prisoners.

One of our noted Arab "allies" has a torture machine they use on political prisoners that consists of a chair with a whole in the seat. The prisoner is strapped naked to the chair and a hot soldering iron is stuck up his ass.

Personally, I'll take the American version of "Abu Ghraib Sex Theater" over the "hot-seat" any day of the week.

roi 09.May.2004 16:20

uh

And still, these people are our allies. We've been training forign governments how to torture for years. South and Central America, building acid baths for morroco. These are our allies, not our enemies as should be.

GET THIS "roi" CLOWN OFF OF INDYMEDIA. 09.May.2004 16:34

RIGHT NOW

.

Fragging in Vietnam 09.May.2004 16:36

Jonathan Clyne

The number of American soldiers in Vietnam rose from 23,300 in 1963 to 184,000 in 1966. In January 1969 the total number of U.S. soldiers in Vietnam reached its peak - 542,000. Despite this the U.S. Army was unable to subdue Vietnam.

On the night of January 31, 1968 the North Vietnamese army and the NFL launched the Tet Offensive. The NFL broke the truce they had made for the New Year festivities and fought its way into more than one hundred cities, including the South Vietnamese capital of Saigon, after having distracted the American army with an attack in the Khesan province.

The Americans were taken by surprise. During the Tet Offensive the guerrilla army even succeeded in capturing the U.S. embassy. Through contacts and spies the NFL had managed to store guns, ammunition and explosives at a secret location in preparation for the attack. At 3.15 am a group of guerrilla soldiers drove up to the embassy in a taxicab. Within five minutes they had killed the five guards on duty and seized the building. The guerrillas also took over the South Vietnamese and the U.S. Army headquarters and the massive American army base at Bienhoa, north of the Saigon airport. Fourteen guerrilla soldiers who attacked the main radio station in Saigon were under siege for 18 hours, after which they blew themselves up along with the building.

The size and range of the offensive astonished the American generals. One of them described the pattern of attack as resembling that of a ball in a pinball game, with the lights flashing up during each raid. There is no doubt that this was one of the most daring military campaigns in history. The North Vietnamese general Giap had been preparing for it since September 1967, when he had realized that the war had come to a military stalemate and that something had to be done to break it.

However, the offensive was not a military success. The NFL lost over 50,000 men and the Americans and South Vietnamese 6000. In addition, the NFL lost most of its command structure in South Vietnam. Within a matter of days they were driven away from most of the positions they had conquered. The Tet Offensive was both the highest point of guerrilla activity during the Vietnam War, but also the beginning of its marginalisation for the remainder of the war.

The NFL had hoped that the Tet offensive would spark an uprising among the population in the cities. The Stalinist leaders of the NFL were mistaken in thinking that they could create a mass movement as if turning a tap on or off. The uprising was very limited. After the Tet offensive, most of the fighting against the U.S. was done by the regular North Vietnamese army.

As it turned out, the Tet Offensive brought about a different kind of turning point. It strongly influenced the opinion of the American working class. For the first time in a major war, the power of television became apparent. Fifty million people watched the destruction brought on by the war. The U.S. government was no longer able to portray the war as clean, simple and easily won. When facts about the Song My massacre (in the small village of My Lai) later began to seep out into the media, many people's view of the war changed fundamentally and there was an explosive growth in domestic opposition.

The true story of what had happened early in the morning of March 16 in 1968, when a group of American soldiers invaded a small village in South Vietnam, did not surface until November 13, 1969.

This is how Adam Silverman and Kristin Hill describe the events in "The My Lai massacre: An American Tragedy": "The American soldiers shot at anything that moved, including cattle, chickens, birds and worse yet: civilians. The villagers did not offer any resistance; still the Soldiers threw handgranades into huts, shouted orders and killed without distinction. The atrocities continued throughout the morning. Infants were killed, young children shot and women raped at gunpoint. Before long 500 civilians lay dead on the ground. But their work wasn't finished... after this the village was set on fire. Bodies, homes, supplies, food - everything was burned."

It turned out that high-ranking officers were guilty, both of the massacre and the subsequent cover-up. However, in the end only four soldiers were taken to court and only one, Calley, was convicted. After three years under house arrest, he was pardoned by President Nixon.

Song My was one of the most brutal examples of the violation of every basic human right, but it was not an isolated case as abuse and killing of civilians was common. Christopher Hitchens gives an inkling of the proportion of this in his new book "The Trial of Henry Kissinger". In it he writes that the U.S. Army admits to killing 10,899 enemies during operation "Speedy Express" in early 1969, but says that they only seized 784 weapons!

After the Tet Offensive, Henry Kissinger - the U.S. national security counsellor, understood the consequences of the shift in public opinion: "Regardless of how effective our actions are, the present strategy can no longer reach its goals within the period or with the level of force that is acceptable to the American Public."

Let us bear in mind that the U.S. has the smallest petit bourgeoisie (as percent of the population) in the industrial world, the working class constitutes the vast majority of the American population. So when Kissinger speaks of the public he is talking about the working class, not a handful of irate college students.

Immediately after the inauguration of Lyndon B Johnson in 1963, more than 80% of Americans questioned in a poll expressed confidence in him. (Bush is experiencing the same high levels of support in the U.S. right now.) By 1967 the support for Johnson had sunk to 40%. After Tet only 30% supported him and a mere 26% approved of his way of handling the war.

Apart from the fact that there was a high level of discontent, it is interesting to examine what groups were the most critical. A 1971 poll showed that 60% of Americans with college degrees were in favour of an American retreat from Vietnam. However, 75% of those with only high-school diplomas and 80% of those without any secondary education supported a retreat.

The Media has completely distorted these facts and continues to do so. In his book "Lies My Teacher Told Me", James Loewen writes of a telling experiment he performed several times during the 90s. During his lectures his audience was asked to estimate the level of education among those who were against the Vietnam War in 1971. They guessed that 90% of college graduates were against the war, but only 60% of those with only a high-school education. Almost a complete reversal of the facts.

The opposition of the American working class was based primarily on personal experience. Their children were the ones doing the dirty work in Vietnam. Their children were the ones coming home in body bags, maimed or mentally broken. All because of a war that wasn't theirs, a war that didn't give them anything.

The children of affluent families were often able to avoid getting drafted since many were college students. Or else they would be given cushy commanding positions, safely removed from the horrors of the battlefield. It was the working class that came to foot most of the bill for the war through the taxes they paid.

A total of 2,59 million Americans were sent to fight in Vietnam. The experiences of the American soldiers in Vietnam were harrowing indeed and had an extremely demoralizing effect on them. Upon returning the soldier's experiences made their way into many American households and the soldiers in turn were influenced by the anti-war movement in the USA.

Extensive evidence of the demoralization can be found in a book entitled "The Collapse of the Armed Forces" written by the prominent military historian, Colonel Robert D. Heinl Jr. It was written just over six months before the American ground forces were sent home. The excerpts from this book that we quote at length below were first published in the "Armed Forces Journal" (an official army magazine) in June 1971. (Heinl was far from being alone in writing about the decline of the army. Testimonies to this have almost become a genre of their own. See "GI resistance: Soldiers and Veterans Against the Viet Nam War - A Bibliography").

"The morale, discipline and fighting condition of the armed forces are, with a few exceptions, lower than ever this century and perhaps lower than ever in the history of the United States. In every possible way, the armed forces still in Vietnam are on the brink of collapse. Separate units avoid or refuse battle, kill their officers, are full of drugs and are without enthusiasm when not on the verge of mutiny.

"Although no high ranking officer (especially not while on duty) could openly make a similar assessment, the conclusions... above are almost unanimously backed up by a number of anonymous interviews with high and midlevel commanding officers. As they are by lower ranking officers in all positions.

"In Vietnam the after troops of an army of 500,000 men, formerly the best army ever sent to battle by the U.S., are trying to retreat from a nightmare-like war that they feel has been dumped upon them by smart civilians. Civilians now at universities in America, are writing books about the stupidity of the whole venture.

"One American soldier, stationed at Cu Chi, is cited in the "New York Times". He speaks of 'separate companies for soldiers refusing to fight. It is no longer a big deal to simply refuse to participate in battle. If a soldier is sent somewhere he no longer bothers to go to the trouble of refusing. He'll simply pack his shirt and goes off to visit a friend at another base. Many guys don't even wear their uniforms any more... The American garrisons at the larger bases are in effect disarmed. Professional soldiers confiscate their weapons and lock them up.'

"Could this be common or even true? The answer is unfortunately yes. By now "fragging" is the preferred expression among soldiers for murder or attempted murder of authoritarian, unpopular, or aggressive officers. When officers are reported dead there is cheering in the trenches or at the movie-theaters of some regiments.

"In the underground GI publication "GI Says" a reward of $10,000 is offered for killing lieutenant colonel Weldon Honeycutt, shortly after the costly attack at Hamburgar Hill in mid 1969, which was led and initiated by Honeycutt.

"The issue of combat refusal, an official euphemism for refusing battle and the worst crime a soldier can commit, recently surfaced again when Troop B of the First cavalry at the Laotian border refused to retrieve their captain's commanding vehicle containing communication devices, codes and secret orders. Yet, as early as 1969 a whole company at 196 Light Infantry Brigade officially sat down in the middle of a battlefield. Later that year another unit from the famous First Air Cavalry Division refused - on air on CBS television - to advance on a dangerous footpath.

"Search and evade (when a unit silently avoids battle) is practically a principle by now. The GI expression for this is "CYA (cover your ass) and get home". That the practice of search-and-evade hasn't gone unnoticed by the enemy is emphasized by the fact that the Viet Cong delegation at the peace negotiations in Paris stated that: 'Communist units in Indochina have been told not to attack American units unless provoked'."

It is difficult to say exactly the number of officers killed by their own men in so called "fragging" incidents, but on an unofficial American military police webpage ( http://home.mweb.co.za/re/redcap/vietcrim.htm) the following estimate is given:

"Between 1969 and 1973, there was an increased incidence of fragging, says the historian Terry Anderson from Texas A&M University. The U.S. Army does not have any exact statistics on how many officers were killed in this manner. But they do know of at least 600 cases of confirmed fragging and another 1400 where officers died under suspicious circumstances. As a result of this, the U.S. Army was not at war with the enemy in the beginning of 1970. They were at war with themselves."


Wiser 09.May.2004 16:36

Calm

WAR!
This is war. People in that Iraqi prison would kill any American if given a chance.
They are not being tortured.
Being naked with a hood on ones head and being photograped is not torture.
These people are being harassed because they are prisoners of war.
They were trying to kill Americans and were captured in a combat situation and put in prison.

Also beware the frauds that will start showing up in front of any journalist claiming they were in the prisons and were tortured.

Their are people in the world that want America to lose, they want America to fail and are using our freedoms - primarily the press - as a weapon against us.
We must be smarter and we must win this war against Islamic extremists who want to destroy us and our freedoms.

I've been there 09.May.2004 16:37

roi

I've been to some of these countries. I don't think they need our help in showing them how to abuse their own people, they have the techniques down pretty well.

I quoted "allies" because I don't believe they are our allies.

the American public will accept a certain level of torture and abuse as long as its someone else who is being abused, and as long as the American public isn't troubled with the details, or interrupted from watching Survivor-All Star, or American Idol.

If Gasoline hits $4.00 a gallon, the American public will hook up the jumper cables to their testicles themselves, as long as its between commercial breaks.

"War" ?!? ___NOT___ - it's ILLEGAL MASS GENOCIDE by U.S. 09.May.2004 16:40

-

U.S. invasion of Iraq was TOTALLY ILLEGAL and has no reason or basis

U.S. military occupation of Iraq is TOTALLY ILLEGAL and has no reason or basis

what are you afraid of? 09.May.2004 16:43

roi (the indymedia clown)

my opinion, is just that.

its worth two shits just like yours.

why does it send you into a frenzy?

are you a right wing nut? or a left wing nut?, or just another assorted can of cashews?

yes, by all means, kick me off indymedia for expressing an opinion (it's the fascist thing to do).

Tell no lies 09.May.2004 16:43

Shirley J.

Radical Element writes these lies:
"Children raped and brutalized in front of helpless parents. People attacked with dogs, with broom handles, with unimaginable physical and psychological assaults. Sadistic sexual tortures right out of the sickest x rated snuff film."

Who are you claiming does that? If it is a charge against the few soldiers in the Iraqi prisons it is a lie.
Do not use your right of free speech to spread lies.

roi (the indymedia clown) link 09.May.2004 16:52

-

"what are you afraid of? 09.May.2004 16:43 my opinion, is just that. its worth two shits just like yours. why does it send you into a frenzy? are you a right wing nut? or a left wing nut?, or just another assorted can of cashews? yes, by all means, kick me off indymedia for expressing an opinion (it's the fascist thing to do)."

FUCK YOU WING NUT ASSHOLE.

YOU DO NOT BELONG HERE.

this is NOT an "opinion" chatboard.

YOU ARE NOT HELPING ACTIVISTS DISCUSS OR ATTAIN POSITIVE SOCIAL CHANGE.

YOU ARE A DISINFORMATIONALIST TROLL WHO IS HERE TO DISRUPT OR HAS BEEN DELIBERATELY SENT HERE WITH INSTRUCTIONS / PAYMENT TO DO SO.

WE DO NOT GIVE A FUCK ABOUT YOU AND YOUR "opinions".

YOU ARE A LIAR.

YOU ARE A DISINFORMATIONALIST.

YOU ARE A DISRUPTOR AND DISTURBER OF THIS ACTIVIST COMMUNITY WITH YOUR BLATANT LIES AND DISINFORMATION.

GET THE FUCK OUT OF HERE.

YES, I MEAN YOU.

RIGHT NOW.

GO BACK TO YOUR Big Mac AND FAVORITE CHILD PORNOGRAPHY.

reason or basis? 09.May.2004 16:53

roi

it has both a reason and a basis, but depending on who you ask, you will get a different explanation of what those are.

Iraq didn't draw the short straw in the lets kick the shit out of world because they hate us lotto.

They were picked for REASONS and those REASONS have a BASIS.

There are economic reasons, and political reasons. They start with Isreal, and end with the US. Some of it has to do with oil, but most has to do with doing Israel's dirty work.

Israel is blackmailing us by telling us that if we didn't take out Hussein, Israel would, and with nukes. Now they have their eye on Iran. They have said that they plan on destroying the underground labs in Iran as early as this summer unless we do it for them.

Personally I feel Israel has been masterful at drawing us into their own little religious war with the Arabs.

Been there 09.May.2004 16:55

Bill

Iīve been to the middle east. Even visited the outside of an Egyptian prison. What a hell hole.
There are tent cities outside the walls of the prison. Why? The prisoners are not given food. The family has to provide food for their family member inside the prison. So the poor families have to move to the prison just to feed their husband, son.
And they have to pay the government a daily stipend for every day the person is in prison.
I heard many stories or beatings, torture and depravities. Nothing new to them

The most horrific thing to the Arab world is seeing the American military women with so much power over the Iraqi men.
A single woman making groups of macho Arab men remove their clothes, stand naked or perform naked circus acts while she mocks them! Horrors! Arab men treat their women like slaves. The men are now scared out of their wits that Arab women will see the power of the American woman and realize that they donīt have to be one step above a dog, but can empower themselves to be equal to men.
The sight of a woman with so much power over men will start a revolution in the Arab world among Arab women ---that is unless the Arab men supress these photos. Check an arab website or two - you will see none of the photos of the American women dominating the men.
Viva laī Revolution!

To the person who brought Vietnam up 09.May.2004 16:58

Combat Veteran

Just to set the record straight> The Vietnamese were engaged in a war of liberation from colonial oppression (occupation) by the French , by the Japanese by the Americans. They defeated all three because it was their country and they were patient and fierce. The soldiers in Vietnam began refusing orders, avoiding contact withe the enemy and yes fragging unpopular officers who put their lives at risk unnecessarily. I believe the numbe of incidents was around four hundred. My company cmmanders hooch was set on fire with an phosophorus grenade and a grenade was tossed into the officers club. In the next firebase up the line several officers were killed by troops who returned from the field pissed that they had lost so many of their comrades. The disintegration of the military happened because the basic soldier had no investment and came to regognize the Vietnamese were supporting the insurgents. I belive the Iraq war is being transformed into a nationalist war and the more our troops operate in Iraq the more enemies we create. I am a combat veteran 1968 Vietnam 1st Infantry Divison

ACTIVIST COMMUNITY 09.May.2004 17:03

roi

ACTIVIST COMMUNITY?

I'm sorry I didn't realize this board was reserved purely for the news coverage of the "ACTIVIST COMMUNITY".

Why I had no idea. Excuse me for intruding and disrupting your attempts at organizing new members of the "ACTIVIST COMMUNITY".

That last thing in the world I would want to do is distract you from your attempts at organizing members of the "ACTIVIST COMMUNITY"

Read everybody's posts, then realize this site has many opinions and there is room on here for yours as well as mine.

Response to the title 09.May.2004 17:11

Hump hump

No thanks. I'll just keep on fucking. Its more productive than being an impotant liberal.

get a perspective, hmmm? 09.May.2004 17:12

geez

"Being naked with a hood on ones head and being photograped is not torture."

Being told to stand there for hours on end, and if you slip, you'll be electrocuted, isn't terror / torture? How different I think you'd sound if someone did that to you.

"Radical Element writes these lies:
"Children raped and brutalized in front of helpless parents. People attacked with dogs, with broom handles, with unimaginable physical and psychological assaults. Sadistic sexual tortures right out of the sickest x rated snuff film."

Wan't this what is allegedly in the forthcoming photos about to be released, or being coughed up to Congress right about now, about which Rumsfeld rather ominously suggested that it gets worse than what we have already seen? If it's a lie, it won't be one long.

And I'm afraid the broom handles part, at least, is consistent with what is already not being questioned.

Besides, we can moralize about it all we want and etc, but what matters most is how little America can afford this now after all the Bush admistration's flowery proclamations, how our allies are looking at it, even our bosom buddy Kuwait suddenly doesn't want to stand close to us in public and actually thinks to be reminded of Saddam, by us. We said we there at the bottom line, for regime change, and they're wondering where the change is... and so is this American.

We get to wonder how many new enemies this stands to make us, the Great Butt Pyramid of Abu Ghraib may or may not be torture, but it will look just great on an Al-Qaida recruiting poster, if an Al-Qaida there is. Say what you want but I'm sure there are reasons even Bush and Rumsfeld think to apologize for this, even if no one is buying their apologies...

Not to mention that our Iraqi Rights Minister who resigned over what we did at Fallujah, refers to the abuses as continuing, and states they were happening happening at ALL U.S. bases. in Iraq since the occupation began.

 link to news.yahoo.com

Whether it's true or not, who amongst our allies is going to disbelieve it, particularly if they're privvy to any proofs?

Very good point Bill. 09.May.2004 17:14

roi

Very good point Bill.

That is one angle in all of this I hadn't thought of. I think this also maybe another reason Bush came out on Arab television to apologize. It brings it even closer to home for them. It makes it REAL, and in their FACE.

Winning the Hearts and Minds 09.May.2004 17:18

Robert Ted Hinds

I cannot begin to express my outrage enough over the middle-finger-in-the-face-of-democracy being shown by Bush, Rumsfield, Cheney, etc. First of all, the apology to Congress last week by Rumsfield was absolute rubbish. We're supposed to believe that he was sorry he didn't read the reports and inform the President and Congress about the abuse of Iraqi prisoners? This is the same guy who's been telling us about his plan to win the hearts and minds of Iraqi's. There isn't any wide spread insurgency, just some scattered Saddam faithful having a tantrem over the emerginng freedom they hate so much. In fact, about $25 billion of the last $87 billion for Iraq was supposed to "reconstruct" the country and win over their hearts and minds. So if all that was the case, why on earth would Rumsfield not react to the reports of abuse. Answer: Because the line about reconstruction and democracy is and always has been a lie. It could be no less obvious, yet the Republican propaganda machine has sprung to life with Rush Limbaugh and friends saying this is an over-reaction, and they were just blowing off steam. George Bush praised Rumsfield's service and Dick Cheney started working the phones threatening Republicans to leave Rumsfield alone so "he can do his job."

Oh, and one more thing. I brought up the Stanford Prison Experiments in one of the first mayoral debates of the year, sponsored by the Green Party as a means of qualifying the danger of having a police force that can kill without accountability and what that could mean if our fascist Dept of Homeland Security ever finds it necessary to declare a "red" terrorist alert to scare people back toward Bush's "leadership." I was ridiculed even by progressives for saying such a thing, and probably cost myself any shot at getting any recognition from the mainstream media, but people need to start thinking about things. Should I be elected mayor, one of my priorities is going to be to make sure a copy of the US Constitution is hanging in every police station in town and I'm going to make sure City Hall passes the regulations to help protect civil liberties and ensure accountability in case Tom Ridge and Ashcroft want to declare martial law in Portland.

People, this is not the gradual escalation of commitment from a series of flawed and political decisions over decades that lead up to the total war in Vietnam. This was a fascist element of the Republican party that meant to deceive and defy democracy in order to implement a fast track plan for war. Nothing can be more treasonous or damaging to America.


YEAH, ___IT IS ____ RESERVED. 09.May.2004 17:23

THIS IS AN ACTIVIST WEBSITE

it is also a community website.

you, "roi" are neither an activist,

or a member of our community.

you are a disinformationalist lying psychopath who enjoys child pornography, big macs, and working for fascist organizations to spread lies about the torture and murder you love the most.

you, "roi", have no credibility or reason to be even visiting this web site.

"read everybody's posts, then realize this site has many opinions and there is room on here for yours as well as mine."

you, "roi" do not have "opinions". neither does your disinformationalist troll-buddy "shirley j."

even so, this is not an "opinion" chat board.

it is a place for activists to share and discuss information and news on the state of our community, which is not being presented in the wider corporate-owned media.

if you want to spew your random unsubstantiated garbage, go to democratic underground or any other "opinion" blog. and your real reason for being here is disinformation anyway, so good luck getting your jollies and wasting everyone's time.

geez 09.May.2004 17:26

bill

geez writes: "Whether it's true or not, who amongst our allies is going to disbelieve it, particularly if they're privvy to any proofs?"

iīve been going to the middle east since 1979. The arabs hated the U.S. then. It is part of their dictatorial government policy to hate the US (or the then USSR), which ever would pay the less money, and they always hate the Jews. The Jews and Israel is their favorite target - they use it to direct their people away from the dismal and corrupt and oppressed way their own countries are run.

Since this Iraq prison thing popped up, have you heard any Arab countries offering any humans rights groups in to inspect their prisons???

Itīs all a scam, a game and if we had a Democrat as president and this wasnīt an election year, nobody would care.

And speaking of politics, when is somebody going to ask John Kerry this questions:
1)Are the abuses in the Iraqi prison worse than the atrocities you admitted committing in Vietnam?"

2) And, if you saw them happening or did them as you said, why didnīt you like the US soldier in Iraq who did, report them to higher ups in your command?

Shirly J. 09.May.2004 17:27

duh

"Radical Element writes these lies:
"Children raped and brutalized in front of helpless parents. People attacked with dogs, with broom handles, with unimaginable physical and psychological assaults. Sadistic sexual tortures right out of the sickest x rated snuff film."

You fucking moron, read the Taguba report, idiot. This is what THE U.S. ARMY says happened. Beyond what the army says happened, there's plenty of other allegations from elsewhere. Given the photograhic evidence that's available, do you think allegations without photographic evidence should not be taken seriously? Are you also retarded?

Here's a couple excerpts from the 53 page report, moron:
-----
"5. (S) That between October and December 2003, at the Abu Ghraib Confinement Facility (BCCF), numerous incidents of sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses were inflicted on several detainees. This systemic and illegal abuse of detainees was intentionally perpetrated by several members of the military police guard force (372nd Military Police Company, 320thMilitary Police Battalion, 800th MP Brigade), in Tier (section) 1-A of the Abu Ghraib Prison (BCCF). The allegations of abuse were substantiated by detailed witness statements (ANNEX 26) and the discovery of extremely graphic photographic evidence. Due to the extremely sensitive nature of these photographs and videos, the ongoing CID investigation, and the potential for the criminal prosecution of several suspects, the photographic evidence is not included in the body of my investigation. The pictures and videos are available from the Criminal Investigative Command and the CTJF-7 prosecution team. In addition to the aforementioned crimes, there were also abuses committed by members of the 325th MI Battalion, 205th MI Brigade, and Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center (JIDC). Specifically, on 24 November 2003, SPC Luciana Spencer, 205th MI Brigade, sought to degrade a detainee by having him strip and returned to cell naked. (ANNEXES 26 and 53)"

...

13. (U) I find that there is sufficient credible information to warrant an Inquiry UP Procedure 15, AR 381-10, US Army Intelligence Activities, be conducted to determine the extent of culpability of MI personnel, assigned to the 205th MI Brigade and the Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center (JIDC) at Abu Ghraib (BCCF). Specifically, I suspect that COL Thomas M. Pappas, LTC Steve L. Jordan, Mr. Steven Stephanowicz, and Mr. John Israel were either directly or indirectly responsible for the abuses at Abu Ghraib (BCCF) and strongly recommend immediate disciplinary action as described in the preceding paragraphs as well as the initiation of a Procedure 15 Inquiry to determine the full extent of their culpability. (Annex 36)"

-------------------------------------------------------

It goes on and on, try reading it by yourself you idiot child abuser apologist.

You forgot the SUV dig. 09.May.2004 17:31

roi

You forgot the SUV dig.

You should have mentioned driving to McDeath's in an SUV. That would have topped off your little rant.

I've been on and off of this site for years. Under many guises, many names, many proxy IPs, but always me. (and I get paid just as much for posting as you do, nothing).

Bill, you nailed it again. 09.May.2004 17:37

roi

I think this whole thing is being fanned both to scare the would be insurgents, but also for some sort of political reason. I don't think Kerry is going to come out of this smelling like a rose either.

to duh 09.May.2004 17:52

shirley

Duh sez "It goes on and on, try reading it by yourself you idiot child abuser apologist."

Typical lib....call names, hyperventilate and exaggerate the facts.
You are trying to blame the acts of a few deviants in the military on the entire 2 million + military organization right up to the President of the United States.

If John Kerry or Bill Clinton were President and the exact same thing happened, would you be complaining?
Clinton killed lots of innocents in Kosovo - no one complained. Except the relatives of the dead.

Where were you when Waco happened under Bill Clinton and his Att. Gen. Janet Reno ended up getting everyone torched? Innocent, harmless Women and children burned to death.
No one resigned or got fired under that Democrat episode.
Were you beating the drum for people to march on Washington then?

Life outside the diamond is a wrench 09.May.2004 18:06

James

"Personally, I'll take the American version of 'Abu Ghraib Sex Theater' over the 'hot-seat' any day of the week."

You wrote it flippantly, but I guess that is the dichotomy Iraqis are left with. Horrific. To think I once thought of Iraqi civil war as the worst-case scenario.

question for COINTELPRO Trolls "roi" "Shirley J." "bill" 09.May.2004 18:14

-

which one of you is fluent in Farsi?

To shirley 09.May.2004 18:20

Bill

Shirley asks: "If John Kerry or Bill Clinton were President and the exact same thing happened, would you be complaining?"

If you answer "yes", then how can you accept that you would allow a person to become President who admitted to committing war crimes and atrocities as John Kerry has admitted and did not report or try to stop these atrocities while he was there observing and committing them?
You all think its terrible that abuses are happening by Army troops in Iraq, but yet you would gladly support and vote for a person who has done worse things when he was in a war.
I do not understand the double standard.

In 1971, Kerry told the press: "There are all kinds of atrocities and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free-fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50-caliber machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search-and-destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare. All of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions...."

In light of all that is happening canīt the Democrats find a better candidate?

To the poster that wishes to censor Roi 09.May.2004 18:26

ranger

you may be the troll. What made you judge and jury?

Regarding Vietnam, fragging did occur and it did intimidate some officers who tried to tell more experienced grunts how to fight. Atrocities in Vietnam obviously occurred, but was sporadic. It did not occur in my battalion and our guys would not allow it. Atrocities, of course occurred in every war, that's the nature of the beast and why we need to seek a different way. - 173rd Airborne Brigade (1970-71)

now it's a Nonsense discussion of "roi""Bill""Shirley J." 09.May.2004 18:33

Trolls talking to Each Other - never mind.

"In light of all that is happening canīt the Democrats find a better candidate?"

--how about "Holy Joe" Lieberman?

Shirley 09.May.2004 18:48

duh

Shirley, what in your retarded little mind makes you think I'm a democrat? You sound like you have a perpensity to "believe". Well, you're probably a Christian or some other form of idiot believer. That's your problem, retard.

"Where were you when Waco happened under Bill Clinton and his Att. Gen. Janet Reno ended up getting everyone torched?"

I was either at work or at home, why where were you Shirley-tard?

"Innocent, harmless Women and children burned to death. No one resigned or got fired under that Democrat episode."

And that's got something to do with me and not you, retard? I'm sorry to inform you Shirley, but I really wasn't in a position to fire the attorney general of the United States at that point in my life.

"Were you beating the drum for people to march on Washington then?"

No, I've been beating the "secede from the United States" drum for quite some time, you fucking lowlife apologist for armed abusers. Defender of molesters.

Your moranic questions are completely irrelevant. You haven't the slightest idea of what you speak of. Your a babbling fool. By the way, have you bothered to read the Taguba report yet you fucking lowlife child molester apologist? It's 53 pages, better set aside the next 4 weeks, idiot.

"Reasons": 4 Down, 0 To Go 09.May.2004 19:01

The War Is Lost

1. It started, for real, in January 2003 when George W. Bush said in his State of the Union speech that Iraq was in possession of 26,000 liters of anthrax, 38,000 liters of botulinum toxin, 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX, 30,000 munitions to deliver this stuff, and that Iraq was seeking uranium from Niger to build nuclear bombs.

That reason has been scratched off the list because, as has been made painfully clear now, there are no such weapons in Iraq. The Niger claim, in particular, has caused massive embarrassment for America because it was so farcical, and has led to a federal investigation of this White House because two administration officials took revenge upon Joseph Wilson's wife for Wilson's exposure of the lie.

2. Next on the list was September 11, and the oft-repeated accusation that Saddam Hussein must have been at least partially responsible. That one collapsed as well -- Bush himself had to come out and say Saddam had nothing to do with it.

3. Two reasons down, so the third must be freedom and liberty for the Iraqi people. Once again, however, facts interfere. America does not want a democratic Iraq, because a democratic Iraq would quickly become a Shi'ite fundamentalist Iraq allied with the Shi'ite fundamentalist nation of Iran, a strategic situation nobody with a brain wants to see come to pass. It has been made clear by Paul Bremer, the American administrator of Iraq, that whatever the new Iraqi government comes to look like, it will have no power to make any laws of any kind, it will have no control over the security of Iraq, and it will have no power over the foreign troops which occupy its soil. This is, perhaps, some bizarre new definition of democracy not yet in the dictionary, but it is not democracy by any currently accepted definition I have ever heard of.

So...the reason to go to war because of weapons of mass destruction is destroyed. The reason to go to war because of connections to September 11 is destroyed. The reason to go to war in order to bring freedom and democracy to Iraq is destroyed.

4. What is left? The one reason left has been unfailingly flapped around by defenders of this administration and supporters of this war: Saddam Hussein was a terrible, terrible man. He killed his own people. He tortured his own people. The Iraqis are better off without him, and so the war is justified.

And here, now, is the final excuse destroyed. We have killed more than 10,000 innocent Iraqi civilians  http://www.iraqbodycount.net in this invasion, and maimed countless others. The photos from Abu Ghraib prison show that we, like Saddam Hussein, torture and humiliate the Iraqi people. Worst of all, we do this in the same prison Hussein used to do his torturing. The "rape rooms," often touted by Bush as justification for the invasion, are back. We are the killers now. We are the torturers now. We have achieved a moral equivalence with the Butcher of Baghdad.


geez, bill 09.May.2004 19:23

geez

I'm almost getting the feeling you're in favor of our abuses in Iraq the way you bring up everyone else's. Don't pussyfoot around with it. Just say right out that you think we have every right to act just like anyone we can badmouth, so I can ignore you even more. You can bring up Saddam's torture too if you want-- but we were supposed to be there to STOP IT, not CARRY ON THE TRADITION.

"geez writes: "Whether it's true or not, who amongst our allies is going to disbelieve it, particularly if they're privvy to any proofs?"

Iīve been going to the middle east since 1979. The arabs hated the U.S. then..."

Who's talking about the Arabs? Did you read those article up there? I was talking about Germany and Italy. They've always hated us too?

But who cares? I suspect the only reason I'm talking to a troll is because Joe posted, and if there's one thing that must really scare the trolls into going at it, it's someone who sounds like they've seen the light. Don't anybody miss THAT post for the Bill & Shirley Show. And btw, THANKS for speaking up, Joe.

brining al-gharaib home 09.May.2004 19:23

remembering jim spagg

The most shaming act anyone could do;

parade downtown naked, masturbating, and wearing hoods.

I would really love to do it, but I don't have the balls.
Maybe I could paint 'Inmate' on my back too.

The War is lost... 09.May.2004 19:53

ee

Another reason I've heard stated much lately: "If we leave now, those who've died will have died in vain"

That one makes me want to puke.

pride parade 09.May.2004 20:02

roi

bring it home.

well, haven't we all seen this sort of thing in public before in the US anyway, right?
I guess the difference is that those are volunteers, and in the iraqi's case they were conscripts.


Sorry, I don't speak Farsi, but I do speak Russian, will that help?

On What Torture Is 09.May.2004 20:20

CatWoman

Someone says it is a lie that children were raped and tortured in front of helpless parents by "our troops" in Iraq. That it is a lie that people were attacked with dogs. That every degradation of human flesh took place there.

If it is a lie, then it's a damn convincing one that even Donald Rumsfeld is fooled by. Because he's been trying to explain it all away for days. No, this is no lie. As hard to even imagine as this is, it really happened. In fact, it's probably happening right now. See the pictures here:  http://www.empirenotes.org. But not if you have a weak stomach, for they are truly the most disgusting and horrific stories and photographs I have ever seen.

Someone else says it's all right that these things happened, because "this is war." These are our enemies, he says. "People in that Iraqi prison would kill any American if given a chance." And he says it's not torture. I weep for the sick mind who wrote those words.

Indeed, this IS war. An imperialist oil war, fuled by American ignorance and mass consumption as surely as by corporate greed, violence, and endless avarice. And yes, many of the people in that Iraqi prison would likely kill Americans if given half the chance. Wouldn't you?

Think about it. A few months ago, these people were not our enemies. (Remember? Remember how they supposedly came running out to greet "our troops" with flowers and open arms?) But now, we're bombing their children, razing their neighborhoods, raping their land and their family members. Humiliating them, degrading them, torturing them, in some cases to death. If given half a chance, you bet they would kill Americans now. How can you, YOU, presume to stand in judgement? How can you pretend that hatred justifies what was done to them in American hands?

There are now photographs of "our troops" raping young boys in the prison cells. And you think this is justifiable? Truly, I weep for you. For all of us. For what we have become.

Do something. Do something. Do something. Rise up and DO SOMETHING about this.

I'm glad that you have been 09.May.2004 20:27

l

willing to change and evolve and have your eyes opened, Joe. Thanks so much for sharing that. To go from being a Bush supporter to an Indy reader is amazing.

There is a lot here that isn't brought to mainstream press. Animal and environmental issues are derided much in the mainstream. I invite you to have a look and open your mind and your heart to some issues that are also very important to some of us. I don't think you could go back to being a republican when you realize how very much the environment and the animals need our protection.

THANKS, "Joe" for sharing your concerns 09.May.2004 21:44

we appreciate it

glad to hear from anyone who shares concern for the ignorant, unthinking hatred and apathy that has swept this country.

Independent Media Centers like this one are at the forefront of alternatives to the corporate mass media delusion and lies. Please continue to offer your contributions, "Joe".

GET A LIFE 09.May.2004 22:08

Ah Beng

This is my first (and last) visit to this site and I have to say you people are impressive. Never have I seen such a bunch of misfits. At the very least you should learn that the word "fuck" doesn't have to be used so frequently and I would suggest going back to school to learn to spell. In short, GET A LIFE you bunch of "Kapala Butohs".

Hey Republican Dumb Asses 09.May.2004 22:15

Ted

For all of those who have written here or else where about why we should be complaining because of what US troops are doing, if you would pull your heads out of your FOX News sand and take a look at real documented history, you will find that the US government has been sanctioning and sponsoring these kinds of tactics for years--Angola, El Salvador, Afghanistan... For anybody who does get close enough to the truth, we are told this is for the common good, but history tells a different story decade after decade.

In the end the truth is almost too awful to believe, but deserves to be disproved... And there is the courage of the true American, because torture and imperialism have been standard procedure for US destabilization policy for years. The only diffence this time is that it isn't highly disciplined and brainwashed CIA ops who are convinced that they are doing what is necessary to stem the communist tide, it is regular GI's and the truth has got out.

Eisenhower, under considerable pressure from the Council on Foreign Relations, halted the US advance toward Berlin, Prague, and Worsaw at the end of WWII. A vengeful Soviet force was allowed to rape and pillage its way into these key East European cities (something Stalin did not demand by the way). The pretext for the half century of cold war industrial military expenses was built up over a long time. The error this time is that the Neo cons thought they could achieve the same level of brainwashing in the ten years since the first Gulf War that they depended on in the Cold War. It's not working.

Sean Hannity and your 7th grade history book are not going to tell you any of this stuff. It's documented historical record in bipartisan congressional records, but the average American isn't supposed to know the truth about what the American business elites who have financed the likes of Hitler, Stalin, and Saddam Hussein have done. But the truth is out there. Wake up and take back America.

right here on indymedia 09.May.2004 22:42

disheartened

aside from the original post and Crucified Ego and catwoman's plea to rise up and do something, the rest of the comments are very disheartening. and we wonder why WAR's happen? look no further than right here.

the only question that we should all be asking ourselves right now is WHAT DO WE DO?! to stand by and do nothing or banter back and forth like imbecels is contributing to the problem. so let's put aside our childish behaviors and start brainstorming.

"Ah Beng" 09.May.2004 22:46

whatever that's supposed to mean

"GET A LIFE 09.May.2004 22:08"

--thanks for the generic slag insult, but we all have good ones. Are you selling?

"This is my first (and last) visit to this site and I have to say you people are impressive."

--glad to hear it. Are you impressed with Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz yet? perhaps the U.S. military performance - or mercenary performance - in 'Iraqi Freedom' or 'Enduring Freedom'?

"Never have I seen such a bunch of misfits."

--what "bunch" do you "fit" into, "Ah Beng"?

"At the very least you should learn that the word "fuck" doesn't have to be used so frequently and I would suggest going back to school to learn to spell."

--spelling isn't taught in schools, and anyway the schools in Oregon are being shut down to finance the imperial fascist war effort.

"In short, GET A LIFE you bunch of "Kapala Butohs"."

--don't know what the last term means, but above already answered the "GET A LIFE" sales pitch.

"disheartened", you can thank TROLLS "roi" 09.May.2004 23:00

"Bill" and "Shirley J."

for the nonsensical Disinformationalist lies and irrelevant, unrelated bickering that they've spewed onto this thread.

as to the originally posted article:

get out in the streets,

call your Senators / Congresspeople,

and demand an end to this $5-billion-per-month genocidal torture operation.

What I've been doing. 09.May.2004 23:10

On my way to work every day this week

I have taken a fat sharpie with me and have been placing little reminders in public places. I am open to more ideas.

As for brainstorming... perhaps the Wed 6pm pioneer square is a good start. We need something big. We need to take the fucking gloves off for this one IMHO. I'm down for almost anything at this point.

Ideas?

_________ BIG_________ SIGNS. 09.May.2004 23:40

this Wednesday 6 p.m. Pioneer Square downtown

_________ big_________ signs._________ big_________ signs._________ big_________ signs.


use enlarged photographs.

this is your 'war on terror'

shame

so happy saddam's gone now

$5 billion per month

looking for democracy

where are the wmds?

justice and freedom in iraq

quote: "no more rape rooms"

inside saddam's prison

under new management

u.s. out of iraq

get out now

this is the end

american as apple pie

use _________ big_________ signs.

not little ones.

endemic fragging immobilized the army and ended the Vietnam War 09.May.2004 23:51

GRINGO STARS

The murder of American officers by their troops was an openly proclaimed goal in Vietnam. As one GI newspaper demanded, "Don't desert. Go to Vietnam, and kill your commanding officer." (1) And they did. A new slang term arose to celebrate the execution of officers: fragging. The word came from the fragmentation grenade, which was the weapon of choice because the evidence was destroyed in the act. (2)

In every war, troops kill officers whose incompetence or recklessness threatens the lives of their men. But only in Vietnam did this become pervasive in combat situations and widespread in rear base camps. It was the most well-known aspect of the class struggle inside the army, directed not just at intolerable officers, but at "lifers" as a class. In the soldiers' revolt, it became accepted practice to paint political slogans on helmets. A popular helmet slogan summed up this mood: "Kill a non-com for Christ." Fragging was the ransom the ground troops extracted for being used as live bait. (3)

No one knows how many officers were fragged, but after Tet it became epidemic. At least 800 to 1,000 fragging attempts using explosive devices were made. The army reported 126 fraggings in 1969, 271 in 1970 and 333 in 1971, when they stopped keeping count. But in that year, just in the American Division (of My Lai fame), one fragging per week took place. Some military estimates are that fraggings occurred at five times the official rate, while officers of the Judge Advocate General Corps believed that only 10 percent of fraggings were reported. These figures do not include officers who were shot in the back by their men and listed as wounded or killed in action. (4)

Most fraggings resulted in injuries, although "word of the deaths of officers will bring cheers at troop movies or in bivouacs of certain units." (5) The army admitted that it could not account for how 1,400 officers and noncommissioned officers died. This number, plus the official list of fragging deaths, has been accepted as the unacknowledged army estimate for officers killed by their men. It suggests that 20 to 25 percent -- if not more -- of all officers killed during the war were killed by enlisted men, not the "enemy." This figure has no precedent in the history of war. (6)

Soldiers put bounties on officers targeted for fragging. The money, usually between $100 and $1,000, was collected by subscription from among the enlisted men. It was a reward for the soldier who executed the collective decision. The highest bounty for an officer was $10,000, publicly offered by GI Says, a mimeographed bulletin put out in the 101st Airborne Division, for Col. W. Honeycutt, who had ordered the May 1969 attack on Hill 937. The hill had no strategic significance and was immediately abandoned when the battle ended. It became enshrined in GI folklore as Hamburger Hill, because of the 56 men killed and 420 wounded taking it. Despite several fragging attempts, Honeycutt escaped uninjured. (7)

As Vietnam GI argued after Hamburger Hill, "Brass are calling this a tremendous victory. We call it a goddam butcher shop... If you want to die so some lifer can get a promotion, go right ahead. But if you think your life is worth something, you better get yourselves together. If you don't take care of the lifers, they might damn well take care of you." (8)

Fraggings were occasionally called off. One lieutenant refused to obey an order to storm a hill during an operation in the Mekong Delta. "His first sergeant later told him that when his men heard him refuse that order, they removed a $350 bounty earlier placed on his head because they thought he was a 'hard-liner.'" (9)

The motive for most fraggings was not revenge, but to change battle conduct. For this reason, officers were usually warned prior to fraggings. First, a smoke grenade would be left near their beds. Those who did not respond would find a tear-gas grenade or a grenade pin on their bed as a gentle reminder. Finally, the lethal grenade was tossed into the bed of sleeping, inflexible officers. Officers understood the warnings and usually complied, becoming captive to the demands of their men. It was the most practical means of cracking army discipline. The units whose officers responded opted out of search-and-destroy missions. (10)

An Army judge who presided over fragging trials called fragging "the troops' way of controlling officers," and added that it was "deadly effective." He explained, "Captain Steinberg argues that once an officer is intimidated by even the threat of fragging he is useless to the military because he can no longer carry out orders essential to the functioning of the Army. Through intimidation by threats -- verbal and written... virtually all officers and NCOs have to take into account the possibility of fragging before giving an order to the men under them." The fear of fragging affected officers and NCOs far beyond those who were actually involved in fragging incidents. (11)

Officers who survived fragging attempts could not tell which of their men had tried to murder them, or when the men might strike again. They lived in constant fear of future attempts at fragging by unknown soldiers. In Vietnam it was a truism that "everyone was the enemy": for the lifers, every enlisted man was the enemy. "In parts of Vietnam [fragging] stirs more fear among officers and NCOs than does the war with 'Charlie.'"

Counter-fragging by retaliating officers contributed to a war within the war. While 80 percent of fraggings were of officers and NCOs, 20 percent were of enlisted men, as officers sought to kill potential troublemakers or those whom they suspected of planning to frag them. In this civil war within the army, the military police were used to reinstate order. In October 1971, military police air assaulted the Praline mountain signal site to protect an officer who had been the target of repeated fragging attempts. The base was occupied for a week before command was restored. (12)

Fragging undermined the ability of the Green Machine to function as a fighting force. By 1970, "many commanders no longer trusted Blacks or radical whites with weapons except on guard duty or in combat." In the American Division, fragmentation grenades were not given to troops. In the 440 Signal Battalion, the colonel refused to distribute all arms. (13) As a soldier at Cu Chi told the New York Times, "The American garrisons on the larger bases are virtually disarmed. The lifers have taken the weapons from us and put them under lock and key." (14) The U.S. army was slowly disarming its own men to prevent the weapons from being aimed at the main enemy: the lifers. It is hard to think of another army so afraid of its own soldiers. (15)

1 Quoted in Colonel Robert D. Heinl, Jr., "The Collapse of the Armed Forces," Armed Forces Journal, June 7, 1971, reprinted in Marvin Gettleman, et al., Vietnam and America: A Documented History (New York: Grove Press, 1995), p. 330.

2 Eugene Linden, "Fragging and Other Withdrawal Symptoms," Saturday Review, January 8, 1972, p. 12.

3 Cincinnatus, Self-Destruction, The Disintegration and Decay of the United States Army During the Vietnam Era, (New York: W.W. Norton, 1981) pp. 51-52.

4 Richard Moser, The New Winter Soldiers: GI and Veteran Dissent During the Vietnam Era (Perspectives in the Sixties) (New Brunswick: Rutgers, 1996), p. 48 and Christian G. Appy, Working-Class War: American Combat Soldiers and Vietnam (Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press, 1993), p. 246.

5 Heinl, p. 328.

6 Terry Anderson, "The GI Movement and the Response from the Brass," in Melvin Small and William Hoover, eds., Give Peace A Chance (Syracuse: Syracuse University, 1992), p. 105.

7 Andy Stapp, Up Against The Brass (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1970), p. 182 and Heinl, p. 328-29 and Appy, p. 230-31.

8 Vietnam GI, June 1969.

9 Linden, p. 14.

10 Tom Wells, The War Within: America's Battle Over Vietnam (New York: Henry Holt, 1994), p. 474.

11 Linden, p. 12-13.

12 David Cortright, Soldiers in Revolt: The American Military Today (Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1975), p. 44 and Moser, p. 50.

13 Cortright, p. 47 and Moser, p. 50.

14 Quoted in Heinl, p. 328.

15 Linden, p. 15.

Iraq So Dangerous that Military Dogs Get Bulletproof Vests 10.May.2004 00:17

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED

major combat has ended


doing 10.May.2004 01:25

somebody

"SOMEBODY FUCKING DO SOMETHING."

That sentence is a pretty accurate summary of most of the reasons for the raping and torturing and uncaring.

Stop dreaming about raping those who ignore your tantrums, and do something yourself.

The hate of writer "duh" 10.May.2004 02:23

Stephen Johnston

I am a bit shocked and taken aback at the hatred spoken here by some of the people supporting the original writerīs essay.
These people show much hatred to any that oppose their views. Not disagreement, but outright hate. Looking at the words written, for example by "duh", I can imagine it is not much different than the US guards screaming at the Iraqi prisoners. Here is some examples of the venomnous hate & name calling of "duh" -one of the main writers on this website:
-----------------------
"Shirley, what in your retarded little mind.."

"...Shirley-tard?"

"Well, you're probably a Christian or some other form of idiot believer. That's your problem, retard."

"And that's got something to do with me and not you, retard?"

"No, I've been beating the "secede from the United States" drum for quite some time, you fucking lowlife apologist for armed abusers. Defender of molesters."

"Your a babbling fool. By the way, have you bothered to read the Taguba report yet you fucking lowlife child molester apologist?"
----------------------------------------

What is the difference between the verbal abuse to the Iraq prisoners and the hate spewed by writers such as "duh"?
We have no photos of "duhīs" hatred and violent behaviour.

To "duh" - How can one stop hatred by using hatred?

ACTIVIST COMMUNITY 10.May.2004 03:31

two vague euphemisms that mean even less stuck together

Maybe he or she meant, "This is a holier-than-thou workaholic twentysomething-vegan-queer-bicycle-punk subculture site." At least coming out and saying so would be more honest.

There are lots of kinds of communities, and lots of kinds of activists. There are neighborhoods that get called "communities" and ethnic groups that get called "communities." There are Republican activists and anti-abortion activists. When lefties talk about "activists," without specifying which ones they're talking about, they're talking about a specific lefty subculture that doesn't like to look at itself and talk about who and what it really is.

In any case, any group that you can call a "community" can't all be activists. A "community" includes grandma and grandpa and the guy who rents the room in the back and just watches TV in his spare time. And if "activists" decide they're a "community" unto themselves, then they've become pretty confused about what they're trying to do and how the hell they're ever gonna do it.

Ah Beng 10.May.2004 04:38

:-P

Go back to the kampong where you belong, lah.

DEFINE "ACTIVIST" HOWEVER YOU WANT. 10.May.2004 06:55

have fun!

"roi",

"shirley j."

and

"bill"

disinformationalist liars are definitely not part of it.

eugene community 10.May.2004 08:14

disheartened

i live in eugene ~ who is with me in rising up and taking to the streets!?

Do Something. 10.May.2004 09:29

Do something.

What can we do?

We have walked in so many protests and stood in so many free speech pens and written so many letters and screamed till our throats are dry. Shall we stop doing these things? I don't think so yet. I think we must stop expecting these things alone to make a difference, but if we continue with these things and escalate our actions until we find the power we have as a people, then I think we will make a big, big difference.

And while we're at it, we can make a REAL difference by weaning ourselves from the cause of this misery. We MUST stop buying things we don't need, stop driving cars unless we utterly can't think of any alternative, stop supporting this madness through our endless, mindless, petty consumption.

We can be stronger by calling a truce among ourselves. Radical, liberal, and unlabeled, we must support each other. We must not let ourselves be divided any longer. And, we absolutely MUST support those who are strong enough and willing enough to really act.

Please, if you have ideas on what else we can do, share them here. Ignore the useless troll posts, and let's focus on what must be done. Remembering that we cannot post things that we don't want even our enemies to see, let us see what we can do here and elsewhere. We care about this, and must do something now. The world has had enough. The prisoners in Iraq have had enough. And yes, WE have had enough. It's time to do something.

a comment from over sease.. 10.May.2004 10:10

raya

c'mon,you're all wanting to do something so why not do it?I mean:I think the main problem of the us is everibody is to lazy to do something,even to think about what to do!the important part is to inform with absolut truth people who are to scared to look for information..i live in switzerland and in my high school we have 4 different underground journals wich if presented nicely can be sold to any person..or make drawings saying presidt is a dictator and stuff like that and hang em around get new people coinvilved!!!

to raya 10.May.2004 10:44

Portlander

Oh, darlin, trust me. We're doing at least THAT much. I understand your frustration with Americans, to be certain. But please understand that the people in this country ARE writing underground journals (for FREE no less), making drawings, and a lot more than that. We're hitting the streets by the thousands. We're demanding change. But it's just not ENOUGH. The frustration expressed here echoes the fact that we just haven't done ENOUGH to make a difference yet. Yet.

We know we live in America, and are therefore enjoying unearned privilege on the backs of the rest of the world. But we also know we don't really live in "the free-est country in the world." We have been attacked by the police at every turn. And let's face it, it's scary. But we're learning to get past that fear and fight for what we believe in. We just need to do this faster now, in the face of all this. (If you want more info on what people here are doing, and what the amerikkkan police state's reaction has been, see the videos! Hit the orange "video" button on the left side of the screen, and download the pdx indy video collective's videos for free.)

What we ALL need to do, whether we live in the US or overseas, is to stop taking more than we need, and to rise up against the global corporate police state.

Ah Stephen, boo hoo hoo 10.May.2004 11:06

Duh

"I am a bit shocked and taken aback at the hatred spoken here by some of the people supporting the original writerīs essay."

Ok, that's fine with me. hee hee hee

"These people show much hatred to any that oppose their views."

Well Stephen, that's not entirely true. If you bothered to look, I only ever responded to the troll, Shirley. So if you're implying that I "show much hatred", to any who oppose my views, you're over-reacting a bit.

"Not disagreement, but outright hate."

Uh, ok, however you want to take it...

"Looking at the words written, for example by "duh", I can imagine it is not much different than the US guards screaming at the Iraqi prisoners. Here is some examples of the venomnous hate & name calling of "duh" -one of the main writers on this website:"

First off, I'm not even close to being one of the main writers on this site. (I like how you chopped out Shirleys words though)

As for being, "not much different than the US guards screaming at the Iraqi prisoners."

Well, not much different except that I'm typing and rarely if ever, raise my voice.

Perhaps you just imagine someone screaming when they punctuate their sentences with the word, 'retard'. For example, take the above sentence:

Well, not much different except that I'm typing and rarely if ever, raise my voice, you fucking retard.

See? It's all in you imagination...

Other differences include the fact that I don't have Shirley stripped naked with a gun pointed towards her head while I tell her how retarded she is. I also don't have have her children stripped naked and am not beating them when I tell her how retarded she is. When I told Shirley she was retarded, I didn't drag her father into the cell across from hers and beat her father to death with my army buddies. When I wrote to Shirley, I simply punctuated my sentences with the word, 'retard', more or less. I wasn't punctuating my sentences by ramming a phosphorous light stick in her ass and taking a quick pose for a photo.

Even though I think Shirley is a complete retard, If I found out that somebody was putting chemical lights in her butt, torturing her children to make her talk, beating her parents to death or sicking attack dogs on her, I would give the same treatment that I gave to her earlier, to anyone who suggested she deserved it. If it was in my power immediate power to stop people from treating Shirley in that way, I'd gladly do so with gunfire. Is that hate too?

"We have no photos of "duhīs" hatred and violent behaviour. "

Well, I may have some photos of myself with a propeller hat and another with my master mullet. I've got some other pictures of me and my kitty? But... I don't think you'll be seeing me on the front page of any papers in this lifetime.

"To "duh" - How can one stop hatred by using hatred?"

I suppose that would be similiar to stopping peacefullness by using peacefullness? That's kind of a bit of babble, retard. (heehee)

Anyway, I stand by my insulting and "hateful" behavior to Shirley-tard, She was only posting message to cause trouble to begin with and she's an idiot.

Love,
Duh
--------------------------------

As for protesting, now is the time! I'm ready to go out on the streets and spew my hatred of U.S. war and destruction at the top of my lungs!

More info from another post 10.May.2004 11:37

repost


Harsh reality 13.May.2004 13:10

An Observer

Don't worry, everything will work out regardless of what takes place. Watch and observe. Don't be a Cassandra.

Conservative Republicans rationlize it away, Liberals bath other in a blizzard of facts yet can't agree on anything. You exclaim, "Somebody do something!" Why don't you do something? The people condoning this must be having a field day with the fact activists can't agree on anything one thing. They (the admin) are so corrupt and incompetant they'll eventually lose even if they perceive their goals are met (or us for that matter). Division is the destroyer, the whole country is divided (The ones who think are). They count on division to win. Why struggle against the waves of indifference? Just float and watch. Be there to pick up the pieces when the grand game fails apart, it'll hold you up. It will. Are you trying to preserve a country and values that ceased to exist probably before you were born? So are they. Don't fight to preserve illusion, destroy it within yourself. Preserve your sanity and watch theirs fall apart, it's already beginning to fail. They are so incompetant in their deception they can't even cover their own shit up. Be happy! Self-assured ignornace will always defeat itself.

Believe in yourself, have hope for yourself and live a peaceful life, just don't take any shit. You and I can't do one fucking thing about it but watch. People who care to much suffer the most. Just educate people, don't take the bullshit have them back it up with facts. If someone doesn't want to believe the facts, leave them alone, you aren't going to change their minds anymore than they will change yours. If anything occurs on your level try and stop it, you can't do shit on the world level. Lead from the bottom where leadership fails at the top. It'll work it's way up naturally.

Fear is the motivating factor on both sides on the spectrum. The Neocons are afraid of losing power, money and oil. We're afraid they get it.

Learn to weave baskets, make stone tools and build a fire. Just be prepared to live in a third world country. Even in abject poverty, poor people can still be happy.

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

The rate of expansion in the worlds insanity will eventually cease, balance wil be restored. The Earth always restores it's equilibrium, that's just what it does.

Great article on Asia Times ( http://atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/FE13Aa01.html):

Students of groupthink list a number of symptoms of the phenomenon that can lead the group into disaster, among them:
Believing in the group's inherent morality.
Sharing stereotypes, particularly of the enemy.
Examining few alternative or contingency plans for any action.
Being highly selective in gathering information.
Avoiding expert opinion.
Protecting the group from negative views or information that would contradict their basic assumptions.
Having an illusion of invulnerability.

My only prayer is that the deception is revealed, and having been revealed, people awaken. Hey, watch Fox and the alternative media too. Learn both sides of the issues. If you do it now it will be less of a shock than those who discover everything they believed in (False Patriotism, War on drug, terror and general NeoCon idealogy) gets utterly ripped away in an instant, they'll need you. Forgive them and we'll win. In their complete despair and awakening, they'll completely wipe their former allies off the face of the planet forever! Wee! Have hope, people in the gov are seeing this too and are starting to question it all. Ever notice the most ardent protests are from people experience it first hand? Vets against war fought and served and now question. Great!

Learn from the past, have a wonderful day and a better tomorrow!

Ian