A mom and pop community.

Something is happening on Portland Indymedia and I don't like it. The Starbucks issue is either being purposely salted with some of the most inane and ridiculous commentary, or the site is being overrun with idiots. Either way, this site has suffered. Issues with reporting and credibility on commercial media to don't begin to compare with the crap being dumped here as "news." If Lars wanted to kill the little remaining respectability of this site, he could not do a better job than is being done already.

I've been reading this site for a long time and it's funny how every time the Portland Whackos post something on a so-called "right wing" site, everyone practically falls over each other congratulating themselves on their daring and ingunity"Yay, we invaded a neocon site and let them have it" or some such crap like that.

But if someone who even has a modicum of conservatism posts on here, they are harassed, cursed and even threatened. Then of course the mighty administrators put it in the compost pile rather than encourage open debate.

Too Fucking Bad! You use an open website, you're going to attract all kinds on here.

If you can't stand the heat of debate, then stay out of the internet kitchen. Make the site a subscriber site with a log on.

coffee addict sez:

But if someone who even has a modicum of conservatism posts on here, they are harassed, cursed and even threatened. Then of course the mighty administrators put it in the compost pile rather than encourage open debate.

this is such a bunch of crap. if you were paying attention, at least recently, the hatred and cursing comes just as much from the "right" as the "left". how can you even imply this? look, the whole thing started with tillman, and the "administrators" started a thread just for it. so what the hell is your beef? if you arent conservative you cant even post of conservative forums without getting banned. this is open publishing, but no one who comes here will let it be taken over by the conservatives who are having such a pity party for. so deal with it.

the people throwing the molotovs made a dramatic demonstration of the depth of dis-satisfaction with the starbucks strategy of overwhelm, divide and conquer. The fact is, starbucks can't really be directly shut down this way. The damage was a drop in the bucket against their assets. Insurance will cover everything too. But this is an example of the kind of emotion translated into acts, in the absence of any consideration for the little guy on the part of the giant, that mobilizes all the indecisive ones towards support for something, hopefully more beneficial to all.

I'm not impressed with corporations that give donations that serve as promotions for their companies. If corporations did their duty and paid taxes like everyone else (or should I say like the middle class who have no choice but to do so) we'd have no shortage of funding for schools etc. We'd have no need to go begging to corporations for donations to fund what should be basic services. They'd have no opportunity to falsely laud themselves as good citizens, and promote their products in the guise of good will.

There is no such thing as a progressive corporate tax on corporations in a capitalist economic system. Corporate taxes are nearly exactly equivalent to sales taxes in their effects. They are regressive.

When you tax corporate income, you are effectively raising work unit costs. You're lowering profit margins. Capitalism relies on competition to keep prices steady, efficient and low. When you raise work unit costs for all corporations -- across the board -- there is no reason to believe prices will not go higher. Competition has already lowered profit margins to their natural limit. Prices will rise to bring those profit margins back to their natural levels (given the existing competition).

Put more succinctly, corporate taxes raise prices -- on all products. Food, clothing, and other necessities. For the same reasons sales taxes are regressive, so too are corporate taxes.

If you want to tax the rich, tax the incomes of the business owners. Tax their capital gains. Tax their dividends. After all -- these fat cat businessmen are greedy, right? Surely they won't let the money sit in a corporate savings account, doing nothing, when they could be out buying SUV's with it.

Corporate taxes are *regressive*. It's so silly that people believe we can just tax these non-person entities and all our problems will disappear. The reality is quite the opposite.

Why is it different when the money goes first than when it goes last? Some big corporation donates millions to the school sports program, as part of a tax write off. They might have paid millions in taxes and provided funding for that sports program... but instead they paid in a tax write-off. They are STILL PAYING.

Is their business ruined because they paid that tax write off? Are they no longer competitive?

It is not either tax the living daylights out of a corporation or not tax at all. There is something in between.

Do you honestly believe that companies that can afford to give millions upon millions in "charity" would go under if that same amount were paid in taxes? If they paid taxes would ALL the increased costs of production per unit automatically be passed on to the consumer? Maybe. But if we truly live in a free, competetive market that competition would be another force pushing prices down... maybe the excess money spent on the learjet for executives would be sacrificed first, before lower prices. But we have to concede that in many instances we are dealing with monopolies (see PGE who paid $10 tax and charges some of the highest rates in the country partly due to no competition). We should get rid of those monopolies instead of fostering an environment where they can exist and thrive.

Yes, tax rich people, that's a good idea. Right now they get write-offs just like the corporations and they can effectively choose how much tax they want to pay, depending on how creative they or their accountants are. It is the beleaguered middle class that is bearing the burden of paying for most of the services in society.

I am not anti-rich people. But if anyone should not pay taxes it is the poor, who cannot afford it. I don't want to hear about rich people, or rich corporations that can't afford it.

And no, taxing corporations will not make all our problems disappear. Nothing will do that. I'm just not impressed with what I described originally. Not imressed at all.

Still, I think corporations should be lauded when they donate to worthy causes. I'm quite sure a small, $1,000 donation to a community garden would be a better use of money than anything the state might put it towards.

Sorry to jump down your throat.

Starbucks is big, we can agree on that, they are insidious and have invaded every cute town in America, they probably support that pesky Israel. Gee, they are no different than most every other major business, but nobody is threatening to bomb Freddies, or any other company. While we're at it, let boycott some of the local companies that have contributed to Bush, such as Columbia Sportswear, Original House of Pancakes et al. The fact remains that those that go to Red & Black are not the same as those who would go to Starbucks. It's equivalent to saying that Nader robbed votes from Gore. Different demographic. Starbucks, in my observations, has never hurt other businesses and, in fact, a case can be made that they have helped local busineses. So, hate Starbucks for all the reasons above, or hate their style of coffee (I think they're pretty good), but I am having a hard time thinking of them with such vile. But hey, we love our local activists - makes life interesting in P-town. :)

Corporations never pay taxes. People pay taxes. The market determines what they can sell their products for; operating costs are essentially fixed (you can't negotiate your PGE bill...). Yeah, it's a shell game, but no matter how you switch the shells, the workers are still the ones who pay all taxes, including payroll and "corporate taxes" When taxes are raised, one way or another, it comes out of the salaries (or benefits) of each employee.

It sure is easy to rail against corporate taxation (or the lack of), but only because it sounds good. In reality, it's an ignorant and nonsensical stance.

Understand the economy before you demonize those who you *think* are getting an unfair break.