Pat Tillman: A Discussion

sounds like a great idea. i already love how cleaned up the newswire is. thanks for doing this, indy workerbees!

By all means, feel free to mock and sneer at your demonstrated betters and protectors in uniform who show the grit to put their necks on the block for that in which they beleive.

so are the lame excuses for human beings that parade in old uniforms expecting to be treated as anything other than psychopathic killer pawns used and discarded by a devilish elite that laughs at their naivete.

I think that the decision to remove the previous postings about Pat Tillman, and how many (of different ideological positions) view him, is unfortunate. I also think it is censorship, imposed by this website NOT because they found anything in the original postings reprehensible, but instead because of the negative attention that was focused on the website.

If you believe in the right to free speech, then you must also agree to the repercussions of that free speech. The Tillman article in question promoted a view that is, evidently, commonly held by much of the activist progressive left -- namely that anyone who would voluntarily don their country's uniform and go fight against the remnants of the Taliban and Al Quaida in Afghanistan is at best a fool and at worst a disturbed killer.

Just as evidently, that view is not shared by the vast majority of the American public. Instead, the holders of that view are themselves seen as, at best, ignorant and naive, and at worst, cynically exploitative of any event that could possibly be used to further an authoritarian agenda regardless of the hurt and harm that exploitation (and/or that agenda) causes.

My question to the Indymedia folks is, if the posts were so disturbing why did you let them up on the site in the first place? If the posts were not disturbing and in the interest and spirit of providing a free speech platform for the disenfranchised activist left, then why were they taken down?

It is not so much that the Tillman article was "disturbing" it was disruptive. This move is purely practical. When 100 people are shouting in a room about a topic and all trying to be heard, no one will be heard. This is like the newswire. It is only about the shear number of postings and comments, not their content. This article is a practical workable forum for those to discuss this issue of they think it is important. There are many important LOCAL issues happening now. indymedia must serve the local public first.

of the dittoheads and their foolish driveling...time to GET OVER IT and MOVE ON! Thanks!

Anti-war liberals call servicemen killers. They put up websites that count the number of Iraqi dead.

These are the SAME VILE scum who marched by the hundreds of thousands on Washington this past weekend in favor of abortion rights. Over 40 million lives have been aborted since Roe vs. Wade. These people aren't concerned with life at all. They're all hypocrites.

I never got to see the original article. All I have to go by is the few exerpts of the comments to the artcle, published on OpinionJournal.com:

"Tillman chose to go to Afghanistan. He's partially reponsible for the deaths of hundreds, maybe thousands of Afghan civilians. No need to feel sorry for him, other than feeling bad that he was brainwashed into serving as a grunt."

"it's amazing the kind of attention this insignificant incident is going to cause. well, he was rich, white, and an american. 10,000 (brown) iraqis get killed, and it barely merits a mention in the american news. how utterly f---ing sad."

"To be honest I wish I could feel sorry for the guy, but the truth is I really feel nothing at all. To many have died and too much money has flowed into the pockets of Dick Cheney to even worry about it."

"if he 'sacrificed' anything it was his common sense. He had a good American thing going and blew it."


I think it was a mistake to remove the article, since now I only have the most hateful comments to go on. And I have no choice but to associate these vile comments with Indymedia, since I have no way of knowing they weren't in lockstep with the original article. Flushing articles down the memory hole can backfire.

the most amazing thing about this whole brouhaha is how evident it is that these people complaining about the tillman "dumb jock" headline on a repost have absolutely no idea how indymedia works. they really just do not get it. thanks worker bees. your patience is amazing. let them root through the compost looking for their comments that were "censored" all day long. maybe they'll discover some evidence of WMD rooting through all that shit.

>>If you believe in the right to free speech, then you must also agree to the >>repercussions of that free speech.

tell, me friend, what that repercussion is you so obviously are in touch with, would you? a bunch of ditto-heads screaming about killing every hippie they see? great, just great...

>The Tillman article in question promoted a view that is, evidently, commonly held by much of the activist progressive left -- namely that anyone who would voluntarily don their country's uniform and go fight against the remnants of the Taliban and Al Quaida in Afghanistan is at best a fool and at worst a disturbed killer.

ah, that would be HEADLINE, not article, you moron. the article was REPOSTED from a corporate source that practically deified the "dumb jock" in question. something btw, most any veteran will tell you absolutely disgusts them. you are so dumb...

>>Just as evidently, that view is not shared by the vast majority of the American public.

this is very evident IF you watch FOX news. do you care to quote a scientific study? i didnt think so.... evidence must be like WMD evidence - whatever is in your pathetic excuse for a brain.

>>Instead, the holders of that view are themselves seen as, at best, ignorant and naive, and at worst, cynically exploitative of any event that could possibly be used to further an authoritarian agenda regardless of the hurt and harm that exploitation (and/or that agenda) causes.

right, as if the "vast majority of the American public" even care what "cynically exploitative" means. and, OK let me get this straight - you are accusing whom, exactly, of the "authoritarian agenda" - your syntax and obvious use of a thesaurus is confusing your message.

>> My question to the Indymedia folks is, if the posts were so disturbing why did you let them up on the site in the first place? If the posts were not disturbing and in the interest and spirit of providing a free speech platform for the disenfranchised activist left, then why were they taken down?

i give up...you just live in your own little world.

Isn't it nice that you can sit in front of your computer and post nasty remarks about the people that provide you with the freedom that you take for granted? Isn't it wonderful that you have enough freedom to insult the people that fight and die for YOUR right to call them baby killers?
I also have freedom. I have the freedom to call all of you misguided idiots. I have the freedom to tell you to be ashamed of yourselves.

Pro-war conservatives LIE about WMD in Iraq, LIE about Iraq's connection with al-Qaeda, and loudly proclaim they "support the troops," while making the troops pay for their own body armor, making them pay for their meals while in Walter Reed recovering from wounds, and concealing the coffins of the dead from being photographed.

When asked to serve their country, George W. Bush became a goldbrick, while Dick Cheney "had other priorities," Rush Limbaugh had an infected pilodinal cyst on his ass, and Karl Rove was whimpering about "The Precious" or something...

WE here are fighting daily to keep our Freedoms...and yet we've killed no one. What say you?

Since I don't care at all about Pat Tillman, or whether Indymedia is censorship free.

But I don't exactly buy the the justification that this was done just to prevent "disruption." That's a fair point, and the Tillman articles on the newswire were disruptive. So removing the links to the articles from the newswire might've been a fair response.

After all, noone has ever made a guarantee of free speech here.

But that was not the extent of it. Not only have the links been removed from the newswire, but the content itself has been removed. If you follow a link to a Tillman discussion, like this one:

 http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/04/286523.shtml

You'll notice all of the content has been replaced with a message about "open publishing." But how could the mere existence of that content -- if it's not cluttering up the newswire -- be disruptive?

It seems to me the Indy worker bees are excercising editorial control over the site. They didn't like the content -- or, at the least, the negative attention it's gotten from the likes of Rush Limbaugh, TownHall.com and the National Review Online -- and so they've removed it. By removing the content itself, and not just the links, the Indy worker bees have demonstrated editorial control.

And what's more, they've implicitly demonstrated affirmative editorial control. Now any other group can claim Indymedia -- the group of volunteers -- agrees with and supports the ideas and writings of others posted to the newswire.

I don't care one way or the other. I'm just calling it like I see it.

Even if you are anti-Bush, anti-war, anti-republic, a democrat, a hollywood idiot, or a lousy whiney liberal freak...you are a infidel and evil heartless muslim terrorist want you DEAD too !

With all of the "Political correctness," "Diplomatic Double-speak," so called "Religious Freedom" and a perceived need for "OPEC Oil" our liberty is on the line. Over the last five (5) or so decades we have become dangerously smug and comfortable in this "Great experiment of a government of the people, by the people and for the people." Without doubt we have the greatest military the world has ever seen. With out doubt our technical superiority is incredible. Without doubt our young men & women in the military are the most motivated and ethical soldiers the world has ever seen!
When a dictator the likes of Saddam (you remember the weapon of mass destruction in the flesh) puts himself in the crosshairs of our military the outcome is not in doubt! But then, that is not Jihad, is it? Jihad is a totally different animal, fought with methods & weapons our military is not allowed to deal with. Jihad is not nation versus nation; nor is it Army vs. Army; it is a collection of religious zealots and their dupes versus everyone who is not of that religion.

As I have stated previously, in the Muslim world view, Jihad will never end until every person in the world has either converted, is a slave or has been slain. While Americans may get all warm and fuzzy considering the concept of (or rather myth of) religious freedom, in the cult of Islam it doesn't exist! Nor does the idea of peaceful co-existence. A case in point is the situation between the Israeli's and the Palestinians. Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Fatah Brigade and etc., have clearly stated (on many occasions) that they will never rest until there are no Jews alive in Israel. In the regions of Africa where slaughters of thousands upon thousands of people are taking place, who are the slaughterers and who are the slaughterees? Here's a hint, the ones doing the mass killings face Mecca to pray. In the ongoing slave trade, (yes Virginia there is still active slavery going on even today), who are the ones capturing and selling slaves? Hint, they face Mecca to pray. What is the fastest growing religion in third world countries and in areas where poverty is high? Hint, they face Mecca to pray. In fact, why would the rise in conversions be so pronounced in the above mentioned areas? Could it be that the promise of power and retribution against the oppressors is what is alluring to people who can see no hope for a future?

I am reluctant to continually beat the same drum, but the threat of Jihad is very real. If now is not the time for Islamists to make the final push for the promise of the Koran, it will be at some point! Look at the population of people from Islamic areas the nations in Europe (France is near 22%) and that doesn't count the converts they have made. A few centuries ago the Muslims were poised to control the known world but were stopped in Spain by those evil crusaders. Is it any wonder that Muslims use the word "Crusaders" as an insult? At one time the followers of Mohammed led the world in the arts, (lit. etc.) science, medicine and so forth. Then when their push for world domination failed in Spain (see William the Conqueror) and the Ottoman Empire fell apart the religious extremists took control - the rest, as they say, is history. The Muslim nation's then fell back into what would pass for the dark ages and have basically remained there ever since! Granted my time line may be vague and what little memory I had for details is fading with age, my point is not to state a chronological set of facts, but rather to bring up a historical perspective.

Do not be deceived by the choruses singing about the peaceful nature of Islam. Every nation that is Islamic became that way by war and force. As a country's Muslim population increases, Jews, Christians, Hindu's, and the rest find themselves the target of actions that certainly appear to be closer to ethnic cleansing than peaceful co-existence. An easy example is of the Muslim method of gaining and holding power would be the situation in Indonesia. As a matter of fact, the resident of the White House just before President G.W. Bush, duped us into waging war against the so called "Christian extremists" in Serbia. Ostensibly to keep them from using ethnic cleansing against the poor Albanians what happened? Let's see, we over threw a corrupt government and took the ability to defend themselves away from those evil "Christians." What followed Clinton's "Wag the Dog!" The Albanians, a Muslim minority in the area, began to systematically destroy everything and everyone non-Muslim in that country! Of course, when we thought the nasty Christians were using ethnic cleansing against the "poor Muslims" it was terrible, but when the shoe is on the other foot is the killing wrong? If you know what the definition of the word "is" is, you can only have one answer.

So, not only are we willing to be deceived, we are complacent about the advance of Islam. You have heard the reports of what life is like under Muslim rule, will you sit idly by while our nation is subjugated? Couldn't happen, you say. Many other people thought that way too! Remember, their tactics are those of terrorism, destruction and hatred. Even if you have no frame of reference to even imagine the freedom and liberty you take for granted being stripped away, you will if we do not take a stand. People who are willing to murder children and others do not think like we do. To these cowards the only innocents are Islamic.

Jihad, in the final analysis has only one meaning! Wake up and smell the explosives, before you learn the truth experientially!

To whom it may concern,

What has been witnessed here in the backlash over this article is the rest of the country speaking up. When I read the article on here I was shocked beyond belief. Pat Tillman clearly believed in something higher than himself, he had ideals and principals and he was willing to take a stand for what he believed in. In reality that is what bothers many people, acting on the strength of convictions is seen as something that only John Kerry is allowed to do (Funny the way his convictions constantly undergo revising). What scares those hatemongers out there is the thought that other people may take a stand based on thier convictions. The greater good, they believe, is suborning your will and your convictions to the mantra of the all knowing society. Last time I checked that was communism. You people out there who said those things about Tillman should be ashamed of yourselves, you sit there cowering behind your computer screens making judgements on the rest of the world. You lives are fill with hatred and avarice. You say you hate President Bush for going to war and yet you did nothing when President Clinton was bombing asprin factories to divert attention from the fact that his lusts had caused one of the worst presidental security breaches in known history (What if Monica had been an assasian from an alqueda sleeper cell, Puts a whole new light on MonicaGate dosent it??). You said nothing while Kofi Annan used the Iraqi oil-for-food program to make immense profits for himself while sending rotting food to iraqi children. You said nothing. You dont hate war, you hate George W Bush and you really dont know why. To hate without reason is bigotry, to hate without reason is stupid and childish. Pat Tillman died for his country, he died so that someday deomcracy will flourish in the middle east and in asia, he died for what he believed in. In my opinion that makes him a better person than you hatemongers could ever hope to be.

This article clearly shows that communist wing of the Democratic party care more about other people more than they do Americans. These people obviously don't realize what it is like to give millions of dollars and sacrifice their life for their country and kill terrorist scum.

of CRAP!

"the number and nature of the posts about the Pat Tillman article has become disruptive. They have basically just been a re-hash of, "He's a hero" vs. "No, he's not"." Realist hit the nail right on the head. As is typical of the whiny, liberal left, if you don't like the way people are playing, take your ball and go home!

Pat Tillman WAS NOT a hero! He was a man who believed deeply in his country and was willing to give his all to serve her. If it meant giving up millions or even his own life, so be it. He felt something the bitter, pathetic losers disparaging him will never know...

"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again, who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause; who at best, knows the triumph of high achievement; and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat."
Theodore Roosevelt, "Citizen in a Republic"

The articles will return. What has been happening is that the articles are being linked from other sites, and people who have no idea how indymedia functions are posting endless comments.

Once they are unavailable for a few days or so, that will die down, and the articles can be displayed in the compost bin once again. Nothing has been deleted and it will all be available again soon.

In the meanwhile, people can continue to argue endlessly about a fairly unimportant point here on this thread. This is not local, or of relevance to local issues.

It is a practical issue. Nobody is overly concerned about the nature of the posts, nor interested to deter certain viewpoints. It is the quantity only.

You can believe that or not as you wish.

James raises the most complicated point about removing the content of the articles for now. The problem with leaving the articles in the compost bin is that the other sites that are linking to our site have chosen to link to these other articles in the compost bin (geez!), not the original article, as a starting point for getting their supporters to come and abuse the site. It's not obvious, but it is happening. Basically, those that want to be disruptive don't care if they aren't pointing at the original article, they just want to cause harm. But, they are learning about open publishing!

Those that are continuing to participate in indymedia and are using THIS article to further talk about the Tillman issue are appreciated. There needs to be a place for that national discussion if people are interested, even if the LOCAL community isn't greatly. In that interest, I hope all that want to comment about the logistics of the indymedia site (where the articles are, etc.) will post their comments to one of the existing articles on the newswire that are discussing that and let those that directly want to discuss Tillman do that here. You don't have to do this, but it will help to let others be heard about this specific topic and it will help you to heard about that topic.

this is getting hilarious. i hope some of the more semi-articulate "as-of-late-dittohead-posters" actually do stick around and post here more often. but please, we like to have discussions here, generally, and ad hominem attacks against liberals and anyone who disagrees with the iraq war and the afghanistan war and yes the war in kosovo and yes the bombing of "aspirin factories" (how the f@$% do you know i wasnt in the street protesting THAT BTW? because it wasnt on fox or bill o'riley? please answer) are reserved for people who post on free republic or similar sites. unlike the individuls who post there, anger on this site is generally reserved for violent, greedy and explotive individuals, groups and yes GOVERNMENTS, including the US government. and guess what? the us government does do some things WORSE than taxing you! though, and listen real hard here - I DONT SPEAK FOR EVERYONE ON THIS SITE! so, yeah some will be pissed that some "dumb jock" is being called a hero. DO YOU KNOW WHY? think about it really really hard. do you know why the individual who posted that headline said what they did? do you? do you? well guess what, I DONT EITHER! i can take a guess though - it was more likely that the person was upset with the glorification of warriors in our society - people who go to another country and carry a big fucking gun to KILL people with, in THEIR name. do you get it yet? some people dont like this idea. it is most likely not the case that this person was a "commie" or a "hippy" or any of the other absolute worst things the less intelligent members of the right can think of to repeat about the left.

and anyone who could provide scientific, or otheriwe, proof that tillman was in afghanistan protecting MY right to say what i want here, should please share it. i'd love to see you prove that that man died to protect my rights. please, i'm all ears...or would explaining a actual position be entirley too difficult? the thesaurus doesnt write the sentences for you...

and another thing. i served my coutry for 2 years on foreign soil. thats right. CAN YOU HEAR ME? and you know what - not one person there shot at me. you wanna know why? you wanna know how NOT to get killed in a foregin country - even one full of muslims? DONT CARRY A GODDAMN GUN.

a big hearty thank you for riding ourselves of these hyper-patriots with their windbag melodramatic
bullshit. we've had enough out here and it's time to pull in the welcome mat and tell these crazies
to take their silly notions elsewhere. thank you for reclaiming our website from the stupid dittoheads.

hahahhaa you say what you say on the internet because u were given that right by other americans who fought for you.lets take away all our freedom and our military and lets see how many countries try to overpower us as well as murder us one by one. Its sad that you are mad at the people who posted that disagree with you. 2 bad you cant go to a war and fight for YOUR freedom

So others have exposed you communists for the ani-American slime that you are and you couldn't stand the heat. How typical.

The word hero is defined as a "brave person". Was Pat a hero, sure he was but no more than all the others that served before him. His celebrity places his name on the lips of the media for all to judge him. Its easy to do just that when we have preconceived ideas of who someone was or what they went through. We would better spend our time sitting in judgement on our own lives but of course we are all perfect. I am a veteran and know the pride of wearing the uniform of my country. I also know the fear of that job.

football to kick around! Anyone want to play that game? No! Didn't think so!
It's a NEW GAME these days, dear Magician and I'd have thought a magician worth it would have known?

Hello, i'm still right here - didnt go anywhere. if you care to prove how my ability to type this has been "given me by americans who fought for me" i'd love to hear it. i'm STILL waiting for something other than - "hahahhaa you say what you say on the internet because u were given that right by other americans who fought for you."

prove it. or at least give me an example.

"lets take away all our freedom and our military and lets see how many countries try to overpower us as well as murder us one by one."

right. ok. that makes alotta sense marine. "take away all our freedom..." do you even know what you are TRYING to say?

"Its sad that you are mad at the people who posted that disagree with you."

mad? no... i want to have a conversation. i'm still waiting jarhead...

"2 bad you cant go to a war and fight for YOUR freedom"

and let me get this straigt - your contention that i HAVE NOT in fact done this is what? my opinion? get a clue...

"couldnt stand the heat"? what the hell are you talking about exactly? you do realize that you sound just like rush? constantly making judgements with no attempt to explain anything. exactly what do you mean? i'm waiting jarheads...waiting for an intelligent response. or at least one that makes an attempt at explanation...

thanks for the thanks, but a discussion is great. No one wants to rid the site of people who are interested in learning from each other, no matter what their opinions might be. It is just important to keep the site functioning and be valuable to local community first. All thoughtful people are welcome of any stripe.

you are on the computer right not............at your house saying whatever you want to say to whoever you want, and nobody is at your doorstep waiting to arrest you, and bombs arent going off in your backyard.

POINT PROVEN......JARHEAD

Any of you ultra liberal fruitcake fuckoffs who don't understand that Pat Tillman is a hero, please do us all a favor and go fuck yoursevles and then jump off a tall bridge. Sound thinking Americans have no use for your extremist wacko views, all they do is weaken the greatest country in the world.

Try making a real sacrifice in your life sometime, and then get back to the rest of us - in the meantime, fuck off.....

Precisely how have US invasions of foreign countries "defended our freedoms" here in the US? Please explain.

And yes, I get that you are mad. But please dispense with the personal insults. I don't want to insult you. Let's continue this discussion with some respect and dignity, shall we? I would like to understand your rationale for the common claim that US soldiers can somehow protect US freedoms while attacking another country.

so your proof is in fact negative, is that it? the proof that i am free to do this because someone fought for me is that i am doing it freely without being shot at or bombed? right. think about that for a sec. you must be related to rumsfeld, who said something like: the lack of evidence for WMD is not evidence of a lack of WMD.

so your proof that i am free becuase of the military industrial complex is that there are no bombs "going off in [my] backyard" wonderful

i got news for ya. the fact that you found this website thanks to rush is not evidence that anyone here, or all of us for that matter, are unpatriotic commie scum suckers. in fact it is quite the opposite.

I justl-o-v-e all these troll replies-they are doing us a service by climbing out from under their rocks and showing everyone how faulty their "logic" is. I guess they all sound the same because they can't think for themselves and must rely on rusty limbo for their information. The fact that they haven't progressed beyond whining about Clinton and that they're calling people commies is the funniest thing I've read all week!

So the only Pity you have for Tilman is that you feel pity for him having lost his sense and doing something that he felt was worthwhile. What the fuck is wrong with you self loathing pukes, I thought you always complained that not enough rich white men died in combat and now that one did you feel pity for having given up a good thing to fight for his country. I thought you wee supposed to hate rich white men, so stick to your principles you alledge to have and say what you mean, you are glad he is dead arent you. You pathetic pigs should spend a few days in one of these countries where people suffered under the tyranny of Saddam Hussein or the Taliban, I'll bet you would be real fucking eager to get your lilly white self centered asses back to the USA real quick. Where the blood of thousands of people just like him but with no celebrity status has been spilled in order to allow you to spew such crap about anything and anyone that you feel such distaste for. I hear people say that he and people like him are not fighting for our freedoms because they are doing it a half a world away, would you rather we have to fight them on our own soil? If Afghanistan and Iraq were to stay the way they were prior to recent events it might not have changed how we live in the immediate future, but is it not sensible to realize that if we just let what happened go unpunished that it would not happen again? Getting back to Tillman, I would like to say that I knew him, but I diddnt. However, I knew and still know many like him that I served with while serving as a Marine grunt (gasp) and have seen enough of that part of the world to know that the people of these countries deserve a chance at normalcy, certainly you would want it if you lived there wouldn't you? Of course if it does not appear to be your freedom that our troops are fighting for directly as in they are not fighting people in your home town then it is not at all important that they have freedom then isnt it? So while I respect your right to freedom of expression and speech I have but one thing to say to you....shut your filthy, uneducated, self centered greedy mouths. And remember this, I dont know where it came from but it is perfect for this post....... Freedom has a taste the protected will never know.

My heart goes out to the Tillman family and the families of all those who have died before him.


Rob Minichino

feel free to directly email me your thoughts, my anti-spam software is rather hard core so it might kick a complaint back to you but do not worry I will get your email.

are some of the comments on here. Dear gringostars, do you not realize that the war has been brought to America? Where were you when Iraq attemted to invade Kuwait? Where were you during the first WTC bombing? Where were you when the USS Cole was attacked? What about during the bombing in OKC? Where were you when the Palestinians started bombing busses carrying innocent schoolchildren? What about when we all watched 3000 people die in the hands of 19 islamic extremists who share the same sentiments as thousands of others who would love to snuff your sorry little ass from this earth. We must take a stand and rid the world of this scum. Should we just sit here in our homes while the terrorists plot to kill us all? Your life is not worth more to them than mine. You are an American and if you are so miserable here then fucking leave!!!!!!!

have anything to say that isn't utterly predictable?

last time i tried to have a recent war hero it was pvt. lori, but nobody ever heard of her because she was eclipsed by the circus that was made out of pvt. jessica. we've already been through one round of the junk that happens when you try to make a symbol out of a fallen soldier.

look, if tillman or anyone else gets talked up to the point that it sounds like they walked on water, then you can probably figure someone's going to talk 'em down pretty hard just to try to keep a balance. the more you try to make a golden idol out of them, the more you can expect someone to want to knock it over and think they're doing the right thing. if you want to proceed to get reactionary about someone trying to knock over an idol, and call us all commie scum instead of trying to see why someone's dissing your "hero," this probably won't ever resemble an actual discussion more than sheer flatulence.

suppose i concede tillman was a brave guy, suppose i concede he was thinking he was doing the right thing, suppose i concede it's an enormous tragedy. i don't think i'd disagree with any of that. but that just makes me think the whole war is that much more wrong, and it needs to stop, as opposed to flapping the flag and calling, begging, demanding for even more of these tragedies to happen. i have no idea how i could mourn this while i cheer for what brought it on.

we could talk about it, we could talk about whether that's what anyone thinks tillman would have wanted is more dead soldiers in his name, but the impression i have so far is of people who want to call me commie scum, not talk, or who want to talk about the "hate" they see here where nobody has a kind word for some elected official, and overlook the fact that nobody who was here first is pushing the kind of hate that ends in people dead, or go on about "who died for whose right to call someone else a baby killer" (I never once ASKED anyone to die for my right to do anything that I recall) instead of paying attention to why anyone's getting called that. you want to talk? the subject isn't pretty and a conversation won't be easy; please don't make it harder by pretending you're deaf.

I agree with you on something. You're right, you didn't ask anyone to "die for your right to do anything". No, it was handed to you right in your fucking lap when you were born, something that millions of people in this world wish they had. Now why do we have these rights? Because of our military!!!!!! Should we disband our government and what it stands for, then turn ourselves over to the crazies of the world who hate everything we stand for, including your rights to believe the vitriol toward this country with which you speak?

Dear Blaze,

Who ever you are, you are obviously well read, well informed and a student of history. Thank you for a very well written commentary.

It is just too bad that most of the extreme left will not be able to comprehend it because they are too worried about saving chickens or eating gay wedding cake.

Friends, Romans, Countrymen....Blaze has hit this issue on the mark! Terrorist bombs and beliefs don't discriminate (that means they kill democrats, rupublicans, gays, strait...it doesn't matter) and if extreme Islam gets their way, the West gets disposed of.

Judging by the relative lack of commentary posted regarding Blaze's thoughts, I can only say to you that the truth hurts. Blaze has you thinking eh? Blaze has you thinking about the history of this supposed "Religion of Peace" and it's belief systems.

So how does all of this relate to Pat Tillman?

He put his life on hold to stand up for a principle he beleived in and fought for this nations survival. With that said, I believe that everyone needs to ask themselves one basic question:

Do I place more importance on my agenda, my political beliefs, my thoughts on Starbucks or Seattle's Best? Or do you choose survival of yourself, your loved ones, your neighbors, or your country?

I for one choose survival. Why? Because none of us could say what we are saying here on this site if we are not around to do it.

Remember.....those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

What war has been brought to America? A SAUDI (supposedly it was Osama - there is still no proof of this) attacked the WTC so we attack Iraq and Afghanistan? How does that make sense? Afghanistan offered to hand Osama over to the US and the US refused and invaded anyway.

The bombing in Oklahoma city - Does that mean we should bomb Montana? If the foreign wars are justified, so is bombing Montana. So why not? because he was a white Christian? Does that mean that you want to fight Muslims out of some religious crusade? If so, you are the same as them, wanting jihad, as they call it.

The Palestinians bomb civilians because the Israelis kill FOUR TIMES as many Palestinians as Palestinians kill Israelis. I guess it's OK when an Israeli kills a Palestinian because the holy war is against Islam instead of Judaism? Guess what - if Israel wasn'y illegally occupying Palestine there would be NO bombings of school busses.

Why are at least 7 of the 19 "hijackers" still alive? There are holes in the official 9-11 conspiracy theory that fingers Osama, but what with Condi lying on TV and Bush refusing to testify, I guess the truth will never be known about 9-11.

Terrorists are plotting to kill us because we have slaughtered millions of their people. If we stopped our OFFENSIVE military from invading foreign countries, maybe we would have a half-decent DEFENSIVE military that could stop future attacks on the US. As it is, the inept failure of a military we have was busy overseas instead of DEFENDING our country like they took an oath to do. Should Muslima around the world sit still whyt the US plans to kill them? It runs both ways.

I am active in trying to DEMOCRATICALLY change how the US military operates. Instead of telling people you disagree with to leave the country, maybe you should try DEMOCRACY instead. It sounds like you'd be more comfortable in Nazi Germany where no dissent was tolerated. You see, here in the US, we uphold the ideal of DEMOCRACY with having open discussions, even boycotts, strikes and direct actions in order to stop the US from doing things that will earn the hatred of the world, this endangering you and me.

Now PLEASE FINALLY explain to me HOW the military gives us freedom of speech and freedom of the press by invading and occupying a foreign country. EXPLAIN to me how you think that works please.

ok, it isnt funny anymore. i used to post to free republic back when it was sane. i guess the whole world, or at least half of it has totally lost their minds. this thread is becoming as divided as our country is. it is really sad that, as americans, the only way we know how to talk to each other is through insults. those who stand on the "new-to-this-site-via-rush-or-whatever" side really need to stop and think for a second. you have grouped every single person who disagrees with the iraq war as being "against" tillman, or even worse, glad he is dead. this is simply not the case. scroll through the responses and you will see it is generally the, for lack of a better term "dittoheads", who are doing most of the name calling and inciting. i dont need to say anymore. i do want to address a few points:

"So the only Pity you have for Tilman is that you feel pity for him having lost his sense and doing something that he felt was worthwhile. What the fuck is wrong with you self loathing pukes, ... you are glad he is dead arent you. You pathetic pigs should spend a few days in one of these countries where people suffered under the tyranny of Saddam Hussein or the Taliban, I'll bet you would be real fucking eager to get your lilly white self centered asses back to the USA real quick."

there are so many sterotypes here i dont even need to point them out. how exactly do you know what i believe? i think, because this site simply exists, that you are inscensed. this is irrational. fortuantely the right has no monopoly on reason. as is clearly evidenced here.

i have spent time is countries similar to those you mention, my friend. have you? without a gun? you must realize that you dont know the people you are writing to. this means you know nothing about them. instead of discussing you insult. instead of trying to understand, you insult. i never heard such language from a bunch of lower-middle class, white, christian, inbred hicks before. see? how does that sound? are you every one of those things? well, are you? maybe you are, and maybe you arent. most likely you have no idea what i'm getting at. then again maybe you do. the hate is coming from those you would stiffle free speech, not those who post headlines that read "dumb jock".

"Freedom has a taste the protected will never know."

now i'm pissed off. you do realize this statement is entirley non-sensical, dont you? of course not. THE PROTECTED ARE NOT FREE. they are protected. go back to your cocoon and wrap yourself in your tv.
secondly, you know absolutely nothing about me - to make that comment and think it applies is the ultimate in arrogance. i repeat, you know nothing about me - whether i am male or female, white or black, gay or straight. i assume you have made many assumptions, but the most horrible assumption you make is that everyone must agree or shut their mouths. you are not an exemplary american. perhaps tillman was, but you are not, rob.

and im sure you dittoheads are all googling "proof that the military makes us free" right now. best of luck. just remember - we all must share this country or else we will kill each other over it. which side will your glorious military be on then?

"it was handed to you right in your fucking lap when you were born, something that millions of people in this world wish they had. Now why do we have these rights? Because of our military!!!"

go post to freerepublic. i dont have the time to instruct you in the history of our country. but i will say: we do NOT enjoy our rights as americans because of the military, or even the government, but in spite of it.

You spit in the face of those who protect you. And To make a mockery of the tragic events of sept.11, You make me sick. I pry that you live a long life, and can see the result of people like your self not supporting your country. One day we will fall and all blame will be placed on your sholders and others like you. How can you question why we are liberating Iraq? Have you even explored the en-exsuable acts that man (Sadam) devistated that counrty with! Are you awake to the terror that MOST of those people lived in everyday? Shame on you!! Why do you enjoy this freedom of speach you excercise? Why not join them in Iraq, burning the bodies of slain men and hanging them from a bridge. It pains me that Men and women like my self are willing to enlist for people like you to defile the banner of freedom and liberty that we give our lives for. May Allah have mercy on your soul, we forgive you. Hope he does when you see the errors of your ways.


The U.S. Armed Forces

P.S. Go and Join them in Iraq, Maby Ill See you soon!!!

you people are so misguided. There is no way that myself or any other clear-headed American can talk to you. Just leave, why would anyone want to live in a place where they are so miserable. You leftists must suffer from the
"Battered Wife Syndrome". You don't appreciate or understand anything other than being miserable and full of hate. If I was so miserable with where I lived I would leave, why don't you? Just leave. American doesn't need you. You hate America, and America will be find without you. Thank you.

As a former marine and american citizen, I fully support the right of people to post their socialist, utopian views on this or any other site. It is your right as an american citizen to do so. However, that doesn't mean alot of you have any class or knowledge about which you speak.

For some poster to talk ill of the deceased Pat Tillman is infantile and immature at best. You might not like the military. But to degrade someone that did and wanted to do something for his country is childish and doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

You might not like the "Imperialist" war being fought right now, or that is was based on faulty intelligence. But to degrade the troops that are being sent, that gives me a case of the redass.

It is only over the internet that people would post something like that, for they remain happily anonymous. They would never dare say something so cruel in front of people on the street, for they would surely face a confrontation. As I said, you are free to say what you want, but if I had a brother killed in the service and saw someone on the street talking ill of him, you would surely face my wrath. That's not a rights issue, that's called being a decent human being issue.

The soldiers who go abroad, invading foreign countries and occupying them, are NOT doing so to protect me. They are blindly believing false propaganda from the president and the corporate media. By making foreigners lives miserable, they create nothing but hatred for the US. This hatred manifests itself in attacks on teh US and its service-people abroad. Soldiers endanger my life. They do not protect me at all. In Iraq there is now 70 percent unemployment and 100 percent of their food is from foreign aid. And you wonder why they hate the US?

The European branch of Time magazine website had a poll: Who is more dangerous to peace - Saddam or Dubya. Dubya was deemd more dangerous by over 70 percent. The world, barring the UK and a couple others, are against us on the popular level, even though most top world officials know not to anger the irrationally violent US. Osama began getting pissed because the US bombed pharmaceutical factories in Sudan that made antibiotics and kept people healthy. With every bombing of civilians the US continues to commit, Osama gets more recruits. Every time US soldiers make a father lie down on the ground in front of his whole Iraqi family, a new Iraqi insurgent is created. Every time some mercenary touches a Muslim woman, an angrily watching new insurgent is created there.

The USA installed Saddam as dictator of Iraq LONG ago:
 http://www.ericblumrich.com/thanks.html
Only when Saddam became disobedient did the US see fit to decry him. But when he was actually gassing his own people, the US continued to support him. I think it's time for you dittoheads to face up to the unpleasant truth that the US is the biggest terrorist organization in the world, and has killed far, far more than any other terrorist organization existing today.

There is NOTHING funny about the cartoon I posted above. That cartoon very soberly expresses why the world was happy for 9-11. Someone finally stood up to the insane violence of the US. Payback. All the names that make up the WTC buildings in LaTuff's cartoon were OFFENSIVE US military attacks on civilians in foreign countries. If you think killing civilians is OK, you are JUST like the terrorists you so despise. Be honest with yourself. And shame on you for your blind obedience. Nazi Germany was possible only because there were so many unquestioning Good Germans. Don't be a Good American and let these war crimes continue in your name, or more 9-11s will happen.

I am furious! First is the degradation and defamation of our men and women who are dying in the middle east to PREVENT our soft liberal, lazy conservative, non-committal Christian butts from death and terror, from people (although they are a minority) who wish to wipe us off the face of the earth. Have I covered us all? If you thought someone was satan, wouldn't you try to wipe him out? My direct reference is the website, receiving open comments on a recently departed ,notable person by the name of Pat Tillman www.portland.indymedia.org The website is purported to have received monetary donations/support from a possible future "First Lady". This possible "First Lady", and I say that with the respect it must hold, would be the spouse of a candidate, John Kerry. Could someone please verify this? If this IS the scenario, this potential "First Lady" would possibly support a biased forum, intent on shooting Americans in the foot, destroying ideals, values and morals of conservative democrats and republicans (and yes, there are a few conservative moral democrats, and they are getting harder to find). I'm an very strong independent who looks for them on both sides, although I HAVE to vote republican. Anyway, free speech and tolerance is what we're all about in this country, so long as the bulk of it is biased and skewed to the liberals, right? The original article citing Pat Tillman as a "dumb jock" for choosing to leave a multimillion dollar contract for service of us (the liberal and conservative) seems bizarre, at best, to a growing minority of people. I'll bet one of two things. Either he was a Christian striving for a dedication to principles, morals, values and ethics, or he was a conservative person who had been raised on these same principles. Anyone else wouldn't commit, value, strive or dedicate themselves to the care of any human on the face of death. Hey, it's hard enough to die for the ones you love, why add enemies? Liberals and anyone else with a self serving agenda would appease themselves, and sway with the most vocal in the crowd (secretly hoping they are riding the right horse). Which brings me to the next issue that bends my heart and bring me to anger. ABC news, 60 minutes, aired (Wednesday 4/28/04) a program discussing the treatment of Iraq prisoners of war, by a handful of our soldiers. These photos and comments revealed a trait of non-committed, uncaring, valueless, immoral group of people who are in our military service. These character flaws are displayed in executives in Enron, our governments, schools, etc., do I go on? The photos showed the humiliation of our prisoners that should never have happened. The reporter cited the Geneva convention and so on. The military official commented that these were not military policies and so on. It angers me to see the cat and mouse mumbo jumbo that transpires between people these days. The bottom line is this... the Christian and/or conservative character traits that our biased liberal media so often tries to kick in the dirt, make fun of, destroy and otherwise wipe any trace of it out, is seeing the effects of the LACK THEREOF in the characters of these people. I could go on or I could write a book? Hey, that's an idea! Naw, people only want lies, which are politically correct. Sorry, I can't do that. P.S. Tell them all they won't have to worry to much longer. Soon all of us will be gone and then they will see what it's like to truly be in the hands of something quite unique. I heard someone quote someone once, which went something like this "this planet would be a better place without Christians". They will have their wish, but it won't be what they expect. Really! Don't they EVER consider how tired WE get of praying for our others and our foes? But we do it, because that's what is right. Thank God.

I don't necessarily support the war in Iraq, it was based on faulty intelligence. The WMD's have yet to been found. (Though I HIGHLY doubt Sadaam destroyed them) The whole Haliburton thing is suspicious. But I do support the troops over there because I have seen what happens to a man when he fights a war he didn't ask for and finds his country doesn't want him back.
Personally, I am an isolationist. I could care less about what Europe or the rest of the world thinks about the US. If I was president I would pull all troops out of South Korea, Germany, Iraq, Kuwait etc...and rebase them in the US. Then I would suspend all foreign humanitarian, military and economic aid to all countries and invest it in the american education system, american technological advancement and american social programs.
The day America closes its borders, it's pocket book and brings its military home will be a very good day indeed, in my opinion.

okay,

once we have done all of the following:

1. genocidally murdered every Muslim on earth
2. converted everyone on earth to Fundamentalist Christianity
3. everyone on earth drives an SUV
4. every country on earth is a colony of USA, Inc.
5. Bush is president for life
6. gotten rid of the "liberal media" and made Fox News/World Net Daily the planet's official source of information
7. put Osama and Saddam's cadavers into cryogenic displays

THEN what?

Hmm...laying on the ground, disrupting traffic, crying like a bunch of babies, since the real babies cant cry, why? youve not let them live....GOOOD CALL!!!

The military gets more done and makes less of a fuss by noon, than you jokes get done in a lifetime, deal with it.

In response to the hysterics posted by the unknown poster above:

1. No one is calling for the wiping out of ALL muslims. I personally am in favor of the execution of all Extremist Muslims (i.e. Talibam etc..) that are known for such wonderful activities as throwing acid in women's faces, killing or amputating the limbs of men whose beards aren't deemed long enough, cutting off the clitoris' of females etc. These are KNOWN and PROVEN Islamic Extremist activities. I can direct you to various sites that have photos and/or videos of this kind of disgusting behavior. The Taliban and Al-Qaeda don't deserve to live. Period.

2. I don't see any signs of anyone trying to convert people to christianity. Forced conversion hasn't happened since the Crusades. If you want examples of forced conversions, try looking up the main goals of Islam. You will be surprised who is trying to convert who.

3. SUV, who gives a shit. I drive a 88 Olds Cutlass Ciera, 4 cylinder. There are more pressing problems than whether or not the neighbor is driving a V-8 or not.

4. I don't want the rest of the world to have anything to do with the USA. I have long been a proponent of isolationism. The suspending of all foreign economic, humanitarian and military aid is a noble goal. It's high time we weaned the rest of the world off of america's checkbook. Re-invest that money here in America and make us stronger educationally and technologically.

5. Bush is an idiot. Kerry is a flip-flopping fool that bases his political decisions on what the latest focus group poll says. It amazes me that I have only these 2 fools to choose from.

6. I don't care about the liberal media. People are going to watch the news channel that they feel fits them best. I don't see CNN or MSNBC going anywhere, so there's not much cause to bitch about Fox News. You watch the news you want to see and let others watch what they want to see.

7. I agree with you on this point. Osama and Saddam are a waste of humanity, and deserve death. They have contributed only death and terror to the world and have offered nothing in the way of peace and love. Same with Hitler and Stalin. I'll be happy to take a piss on all their graves.

doesn't make any sense! Please repost...clean it up...put some thought into it...then, try again!

I think that one thing everyone needs to remember here is that we all enjoy the freedoms of free speach. While there has been a lot of name calling and bickering going on we need to remember where that freedom comes from. Before the U.S. was even a country people did not have the freedom to say whatever they wanted. Our armed forces, defending our rights, has given us that right.

Whether you agree with the war on terror or not, you should get down on your knees and thank every member of the armed forces for defending your freedoms. It is because they were willing to risk their lives in defense of yours that you are at your computer reading this. And so you know that I'm not saying this without knowing what I'm talking about, I have served in the military and in a combat zone. I've put on the protective gear and wondered if a bomb or scud might fall on me.

Now as to whether Pat Tillman was a hero, yes he was. Any person who puts on the uniform and defends this great nation is a hero, regardless of whether they give their life or not. So THANKYOU to all who have served with me.

As a matter of record, undisputable fact, Tillman had a 3.8 Grade Average while playing for ASU

So where do you get the "Dumb Jock" label from?

Or is it just your hate filled bias?

What a surprise from the all-embracing, tolerant, compassionate left wing of society!

You are are bunch of frauds and morons, lead by the nose by mega-rich, (five home and a Gulfstream V owning) elitists like Kerry who know how to enslave you and push your buttons.

"Useful Idiots" is what Stalin called your ilk.

Everyone,

Again....No response to Blaze's commentary, or for that matter, mine. I can only deduce that you all have your eye on the wrong ball, have minimal eduacation and experience to rationally respond in a clear, concise manner.....in english. (No offense to our fighting men and women who have made a clear choice to face these monsters (TERRORISTS) to my admiration - i.e. survival....Thank You!).

This is directed at those who choose to freak out and act on emotion rather than history and fact and choose to puke their irrational guts out hoping it will make them feel better.

There is an unbelievable amount of hate and irrationality being expressed here on this poster board by both sides.

Take a breather, step back and look at the facts of the matter. They won't lie to you.

PS: MR. GRINGO STARS - you are the worst offender. Settle down and think about how you portray yourself. That cartoon, while an expression of free speech makes you look like a grade school kid pointing the finger and crying to the Principle about how wrong everything is, how you are a victim and how you can blame everything on sombody else. Not to mention that it smears multiple generations of of our great fighting men and women of this great nation. People in your family I remind you.

Deal with the person you shave with in the morning my friend!

It was in MARKETING though. That's like being on the Dean's list at DeVry. He may as well have just bought a diploma off of the internet.

You won't find only liberals here, although they do post here too. As a matter of fact, on this site Democrats are often considered as idiotic as Republicans. Rush, once again, steered you wrong. Kerry is about as involved in Indymedia as Rush Limbaugh is. Both are about as truthful, too. They differ on which style to run the American empire. But they are all capitalist profiteering warmongers. Kerry leads me nowhere, but ultra-rich Bush leads you perhaps, Stater of Fiction? Fuck the Democrats, the OTHEr war party. Democrat presidents have led the US into WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, nuking Japan, almost getting the world nuked in teh Cuban Missile Crisis - Democrats are just as bad, if not worse than Democrats. And if you came here to read what is posted on Indymedia first, without believing everything your Glorious Leader Rush tells you to be true, you would know that.

A lot of dittoheads post comments here obviously not reading the whole thread. But I would like to ask, for what seems like the twentieth time, HOW an OFFENSIVE US INVASION and OCCUPATION in a FOREIGN country helpm preserve freedom of speech and freedom of the press here in the US. It seems like something many dittoheads parrot without understanding. Perhaps I'm wrong, so please explain how that works.

By the way, Tillman NEVER "defended" our country. He went overseas to ATTACK a FOREIGN country. There's a very important difference. So he is an INVADER - not a "DEFENDER". Don't be led by the nose by ultra-rich Bush/Cheney into more wars just because they spooked you into (falsely) thinking that the more we kill foreign civilians the safer we'll be. With every country we ruin, the terrorists' cause gets stronger and we here in the US are more in danger.

It seems that Bush has taken a page from the Nazis in how to inspire a nation into fighting a war. Here's a quote from one of the top three Nazis:

"Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship ... Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger."
-- Hermann Goering, Nazi leader, at the Nuremberg Trials after World War II

Dear Gringo Stars,

Have another Red Hook pal. You cannot even keep a stream of thought focused on any topic. I suggest that you go back and learn how to write, type and maintain a thought or concept if it is even possible.

Today, you have gone through the following topics:

1. Soldiers going abroad don't protect me.
2. What war was brought to me (US)?
3. Rush lied to us.

Can I respectfully add....

4. Which one of my parents was communist? Take a guess?

You are an angry, lost individual that has lost any fabric of rational thought.

You need to settle down and take a rational approach to everything that is bothering you. To compare Bush to a Nazi is irresponsible and you know it.

You are lost with no bearing point. You are entropy with a !.

Do you know what Entropy is? I doubt it.

in Amerika is nothing more than mastering BULLSHIT and PROPAGANDA for a make believe REALITY!

Bush is a Nazi

His Grandfather was a strong supporter of Hitler and had his assets siezed for trading with the enemy.

The Bush family has long standing ties to nazi sympathizers and collaborators.

Bush is not being compaired to a Nazi, he IS a Nazi. And he comes from a long line of Nazi sympathizers. See for yourself:  http://www.takebackthemedia.com/bushnonazi.html

I am so ashamed and disturbed by the comments made by some who claim they are liberals. People! Think! Karma is being created even in these threads. A man died. Do I have anger with white male dominated society, you bet your ass I do. But I don't focus it on individuals and I certainly don't use a death to grandstand and insult people I don't even know. To me, part of being a liberal is tolerance of others, their beliefs and ideals.

The "Dumb Jock" reference sounds like a prejudiced slander. One would expect such a comment from a bitter high school kid. I remember that anger as a teen. It's gone now...back where it belonged in an adolescent's past.

Please. People are losing mothers, fathers, sons, daughters, brothers and sisters. I am not a flag waving patriot, but I value all lives, Iraqi and American.

I believe that Martin Luther King had it right. I believe that Ghandi had it right. If we use words as knives, then how much better are we? Anything can be used as a weapon or as an expression of love. One can kill with a flower and heal with a knife. There is a higher ground to this. I can only hope that we can show our conservative brothers and sisters that we can take that higher ground.

If there is a God, I hope that she blesses ALL who have lost their lives and even more. May peace fall on their families and may we not spit on the sacrifices that others have made. May we all find our way through this murky and confusing time. Bless you all.

and think this is the reason WHY...their man, George W. Bush is dropping fast in the polls insofar as
his "approval rating" is concerned...Rush Limbaugh, being the dutiful Repubitoady he is, did his part
in cranking up the DITTOHEAD noise level...we've just got a load of it here for past few days...it will
soon pass as they cry amongst themselves wondering WHY their values, ideas, beliefs, and like are NOT
in vogue as before...let 'em cry elsewhere than here...let 'em start their own rant 'n' rave website!

Bush's Approval Rating at All-Time Low -Poll
Wed Apr 28, 8:39 PM ET

NEW YORK (Reuters) - President Bush (news - web sites)'s approval rating is at an all-time low and fewer than half of Americans now believe invading Iraq (news - web sites) was the right thing to do, according to a CBS/New York Times poll released on Wednesday.

The poll found that if the presidential election due in November was held today, 46 percent of Americans would vote for Democrat John Kerry (news - web sites) and 44 percent would vote for Bush -- if independent Ralph Nader (news - web sites) stayed out of the race.

The poll, with a sampling error of 3 percentage points, was conducted among 1,042 adults nationwide from Friday to Tuesday during a spate of fierce fighting in Iraq. More than 115 U.S. soldiers have been killed in combat this month.

"Just 32 percent, the lowest number ever, say Iraq was a threat that required immediate military action a year ago," the poll reported.

"Less than half, 47 percent, now say the United States did the right thing taking military action in Iraq, the lowest support recorded in CBS News/New York Times polls since the war began."

The poll said the Iraq war appeared to have hurt assessments of Bush -- his overall approval rating (46 percent), his rating on handling Iraq (41 percent) and his rating on handling foreign policy (40 percent) "are at the lowest points ever in this administration."

"His approval rating has dropped five points from early March, before the start of intense new fighting in Iraq. Immediately after the fall of Baghdad a year ago, 67 percent of Americans approved of the job Bush was doing as president," the poll said.

In March last year, at the time of the invasion, nearly seven in 10 Americans thought it was the right thing to do.

The poll said 56 percent of Americans thought Bush was "mostly telling the truth but still hiding something" when he spoke to them about Iraq.

It said 61 percent of respondents now believed the administration did not try hard enough to reach a diplomatic solution before going to war in Iraq -- a reversal of the public's belief last year during the war.

The poll said six in 10 Americans approved of Bush's handling of the threat of terrorism and 39 percent approved of his handling of the economy.

It said the economy and jobs were at the top of the list of issues voters wanted to hear the candidates discuss ahead of the Nov. 2 election.

"But the war in Iraq, although still in second place, is now mentioned by one-in-five voters, a 10-point jump from 11 percent six weeks ago, and the highest it has ever been since the CBS News/ New York Times Poll began asking this question last December."

The poll said three-quarters of respondents had already decided who to vote for in November.

"If ... Nader is included on the ballot in November and the election were held today, 41 percent of voters would vote for Kerry; 43 percent would vote for Bush. Nader would draw 5 percent of the vote, mostly at the expense of Kerry, who holds a two-point edge in the two-way contest."

I'm going to repeat my original comment from the original thread...

It's like some of you people aren't even HUMAN anymore. It's disgusting to see the kinds of things you say about a guy who truly believed he was making the world safer for people like YOU to hate him.

Let;s not pretend Indymedia is populated with anything other than left to radical left political views. I thought the liberals in America were supposed to care about people?

Couldn't prove it by this place. Shame on every damned one of you.

I Feel Sorry For Tillman

I think that he really believed that the was standing up for freedom and democracy, and that is to be admired. Like many in our country, he was a victim of the onslaught of deception and marketing propaganda.

I would bet that if he was aware that he was rallying behind an illegitamate pResident, who was himself a wartime desserter, if he knew that he was fighting for lies, greed, and selfishness of a few dellusional megalomaniacal ultra-religious kooks, I'd bet he would be right in the trenches along with us to purge these traitorous flag-wrapping loudmouths, from our country. If he knew that his actions were hostile to the US Constitution and its citizens, clearly in violation of the oath that he swore to protect it with, I think he would have been furious.

I must say that I have more respect for him in trying to do the right thing, than I do for the millions of Americans that intentionally remain happily oblivious to the tragedies that they are funding, or those who support the atrocities, yet refuse to sacrafice even a tiny bit of their comfort for the cause. Tillman at least had the courage to stand up for what he believed in, even though it was based on fantasy.

Bush claims that GOD TOLD HIM TO ATTACK IRAQ. As if he is the pope. God talks to him. That is a religious zealot. He is not merely saying that he decided it would be the Christian thing to do. He says that he heard God's voice tell him to attack Iraq. That is insane. Do you believe he is a prophet?

Survivor, I was hoping you dittoheads could refrain from insulting people, but apparently, even though I have not insulted anyone, you feel you must insult me and my intelligence. It says something that you think entropy is somehow a rare word that anyone wouldn't know what it means. Everyone knows what that means. Maybe unless you listen to Rush, then it is a high-falutin word that most people don't know in your social circle? I don't know. No need to resort to insults. Instead make clear arguments, as I have done. I made several points on different subjects, but they were points, not insults.

We hate? Sure we hate. I hate murderers and religious crusaders that kill unbelievers, like Bush and Osama. I hate fascists and killers of civilians, like Bush and Osama. If more people hated such things, this world would be a much better place.

Freedom of speech? 5 corporations own over 90 percent of the media outlets. So much for a diverse marketplace of ideas. Bush won't allow independant journalists in Iraq/Afghanistan and said that all non-military radio transmissions would be fired on, a not-so-subtle threat to kill journalists not embedded. Bush won't allow soldiers coffins to be seen, or anything other than sanitized TV-ready images of the war. In other words, a version of the war that is acceptable, a version of teh war that exists only on TV. War isn't pretty. But it is on TV, and people will support such wars then.

There are noncombatants in the Cuban gulag that have not been charged with anything, that aren't allowed to see lawyers. So much for home of the free. So much for international law. So much for treaties, which the US CONSTITUTION upholds as the supreme law of our land. I guess the US doesn't care about the Constitution anymore.

I'm proud of what I do. I am an activist against the ultraviolent US empire, which has killed far more civilians than any existing terrorist organization has.

Quit calling Indymedia liberal. Many people here are radicals, such as myself. Socialists and anarchists and various others who work against capitalism. I hate Kerry for helping to make sure civilians die just like I hate Bush for leading his buddy frat-brother Kerry in the latest Iraq venture.

Karma IS being created. By every soldier who follows an order to fire missiles and drop bombs on cities. I sleep very well at night. I know veterans who can't because they know the horrible things they've done. No one should have to kill innocent civilians. And people that knowingly join the USA's religious crusade against Islam deserve everything they get. Karma is as instant as a bullet sometimes.

NOW will someone please explain HOW the US's invasion and occupation of foreign countries is somehow "defending my freedoms"? No one wants to answer that. I wonder why.

Enjoy some Flash movies...

US war crimes:
 http://www.ericblumrich.com/PD.html

Bush hates Veterans:
 http://www.ericblumrich.com/vets.html

illegal US occupation of Iraq:
 http://www.ericblumrich.com/occupied.html

every death on the hands of teh US military creates new enemies, creates new terrorists, creates more danger for the US:
 http://www.ericblumrich.com/pax.html

I don't have the patience to read all this crap, just want to make one comment about innocence. I'm 64, born in 1940, grew up in the 50s, college in the 60s. I consider myself a radical leftist, but I was in my late 20s (around 1967-68) before I reached that point. Before that I was liberal on civil rights and a Democrat but didn't really have much in the way of political beliefs. I was interested in politics, but I was in learning mode. I've read that political beliefs are the last part of a personality to gel, usually around age 30.

In 1959 when I was 19 I dropped out of college, couldn't find a job and joined the Navy because I couldn't think of anything else to do. I was a working-class kid with no family support at that time because my family was also going through hard times. Fortunately I got through my 4 years in peace. I was innocent, as I think most young people are, perhaps especially working-class young people. I think most young folks pay little attention to politics because it's not real to them. They have more immediate concerns like getting a date and passing a test.

So I don't think it's fair to blame the troops for being in Iraq. I think most of them are working-class kids who joined the military because they couldn't think of any other way to get ahead. There are damn few opportunities for kids who don't get a degree. They are not necessarily stupid. They are uninformed and innocent. And so, unfortunately, are a lot of people old enough to know better.

I dont know if people realize this, but there are people who hate the USA, they did before GWB got into office, and they will after wards, there are some people who hate McDonalds , Rock n Roll, free sex, drugs, and all the negative things that this country expunges to the rest of the world. Alot of countries dont like our cultural influence, and the "liberals" and "conservatives" are exempt from the blame (if you can call it that). Its just the way things are. I dont think any president could stop people from hating this country, people hate the yankees, the lakers, and the Cowboys, just because they dominated(d), its human nature to dislike the man (or in this case country) on top. So, to conclude, People hate us, most tolerate us, and some people are violent towards us....Now, a man attacks us, and he is in a country that protects him, what are the other alternatives? Everybody wants peace, its great, its fun, but it isnt reality, when others dont want peace, it kinda throws away that possibility. I work, I pay taxes like alot of people here who have posted, and i admire a man who walks away from millions because of his beliefs, i saw a man once years ago take an F for a laboratory because his religion didnt allow him to harm living things, its not about flags, guns, n country, its about believnig in something, and standing up for what you believe in no matter what is in your way, or no matter how convenient it may be otherwise....

"""NOW will someone please explain HOW the US's invasion and occupation of foreign countries is somehow "defending my freedoms"? No one wants to answer that. I wonder why. """

First off I think its sick how some people here view our soldiers as "sick" or "murderers"...Some people here should thank these guys for volunteering, or else they would draft some of these people, and I doubt they would call themselves murderers at that point. My father went to Vietnam as your average 19 year old, and when he came back he realized that draft dodgers were the ones criticizing his involvement. lets not have a repeat of "welcome home" soldiers got in vietnam.

As for the question, its a good one, had me stumped for a moment. Im not a conservative or a liberal, but i believe saddam wasnt goin to sit still and become a peaceful man, he needed his country to be routinely checked for WMD and it was for many years. Problem was, you had no consequences for his defiance of the UN resolutions, he didnt have to do sh-t, and he knew the UN woudlnt do anythign to him because our 'buddies' france and germany had under teh table deals and would have his back no matter what. Saddam wasnt goin to fully comply, it was goin to be an endless cycle until maybe he did get his hands on something more potent and decided to use it. i think war was inevitable, and then you take into account the flight TWA800 which was probably shot down, and was probably financed by an Iraqi...that is enough for me. GWB post war plan is trash, and he wasnt prepared, and he isnt very competent...i didnt answer your question yet...saddam was goin to get us sooner or later, he hated us, he had money, and he had some allies in the UN, and he had weapons that we gave him..he was a threat.

There are no weapons of mass destruction, and US produced Saddam was no threat whatsoever, except to our self imposed oil addiction.

As far as your 'probably' claim that comes without any support whatever, if you think trashing the UN Charter and butchering thousands of innocent people is justified based in your baseless probability, then you are also a flaming asshole, and you should report for duty immediately.

Here is a little advise, if you don't love this great country, then please get on the first plane out of here to France. They love spineless people. I do not know where your parents went wrong, it might have been all of the drugs they took while pregant, or they did not beat you enough. Either way you people do not deserve to live in this great country that GOD has blessed.

More name calling instead of actual dialog.

I think name-callers and those who enjoy flaming each other should have their own site where they can yell back and forth and never change the other's opinions and continue to dehumanize those who don't agree with them.

"lets not have a repeat of "welcome home" soldiers got in vietnam."

I wholeheartedly agree. There is nothing productive in attacking soldiers. Yes, soldiers are not without blame; they make their choices just as all of us do. But attacking them doesn't get us anywhere. I think a lot of what we're seeing in this country now is the result of not having closure over Vietnam. Perhaps it's time to blame the policy makers and educate each other instead of hurling insults. Otherwise, things could get a lot worse very quickly.

"he needed his country to be routinely checked for WMD and it was for many years"

Yes, and the problem, of course, is that the weapons inspectors had full access to the country at the time of the US invasion. Like many, I was fully supportive of allowing the inspectors to do their jobs. Had we done that a lot more people would be alive today.

"saddam was goin to get us sooner or later, he hated us"

I'm not so sure about that. Why did Hussein hate us? We financed and armed him in the 80's, and despite our conflict with him in the first Gulf War, when the Shiites and Kurds rose up to overthrow him the US signed a cease fire with him and allowed him to fly though US lines to massacre the insurgents. Then the sanctions were put into place which enabled Hussein to stay in power (as the humanitarian sanctions weakened the Iraqi people so that they could not overthrow Hussein, plus it allowed Hussein to direct anger toward him at the US and other countries). So the US did Hussein a lot of favors (and that's just in the past 2 decades, there's a lot more prior to that). Then there's the question of *could* he have gotten us. His weapon supply was non-existent after the first weapons inspections, and his army was pathetic. He never could have been a threat to the US. And remember that Hussein would never have armed groups like Al Queda since they hated him and wanted him removed from power (Hussein and Bin Laden in particular are avowed enemies). But I suppose this is academic, what's done is done and Hussein is out of power and no one will miss him. The question becomes, how long are we going to continue to occupy Iraq, and for what? As time passes more and more people are going to be asking those questions, particularly those whose lives, or the lives of their loved ones, are at stake.

"It's high time we weaned the rest of the world off of america's checkbook."

--HOW MUCH MORE MONEY ARE *YOU* ALLOWING FOR "liberation" OF IRAQ?

FUCK YOU, ASSHOLE.

GO ON LIVING IN YOUR LIBERTARIAN DREAMLAND, DICKFACE.

DO SOMETHING, INSTEAD OF ARMCHAIR QUARTERBACKING.

"You watch the news you want to see and let others watch what they want to see."

YOU FUCKING CLUELESS SACK OF SHIT. YOU ARE THE PROBLEM. YOU ARE THE BRAINLESS, SPINELESS, **LAZY**, NO-MORALS AIRHEAD WHO IS PASSIVELY ALLOWING OUR COUNTRY TO BE RUN BY CORPORATIONS, AND BE GOVERNED BY HOMELAND SECURITY/USA PATRIOT ACT.

IF THERE'S ONE THING THAT'S MORE PATHETIC THAN ANYTHING ELSE, IT'S A SIT-ON-HIS-THUMBS PONTIFICAL "Libertarian" WHO CLAIMS "pro-military" ASSOCIATIONS.

TAKE YOUR SANCTIMONIOUS LIBERTARIAN PSEUDO-CONSERVATIVE  devilmarine@hotmail.com FUCKWAD COMMENTARY AND SHOVE IT UP YOUR GENOCIDAL MILITARISM-WORSHIPPING ASS.

YEAH, YOU "Wyatt" - YOU ARE A GENOCIDAL MILITARIST.

MILITARISM AND WORSHIP OF THE MILITARY TRADITION HAS NEVER CAUSED ANYTHING BUT MORE DEATH, SUFFERING AND REPRISAL FROM ANTI-IMPERIALISTS. AS LONG AS YOU CONTINUE TO "wish" FOR YOUR LA-LA LAND "isolationism" AND DO NOTHING WHATSOEVER ABOUT WHAT YOUR CLUELESS BRAINWASHED FELLOW AMERICAN FASCISTS ARE ACTUALLY MIMICKING, CONSUMING, AND SAYING (i.e. listening to Limbaugh/Hannity/Rumsfeld/INSERT "CONSERVATIVE"/"LIBERTARIAN" FUCKHEAD'S NAME HERE),

THE POWER ELITES WILL CONTINUE TO TORCH YOUR CONSTITUTION AND RUN YOUR COUNTRY INTO THE GROUND AND MORE ENDLESS PAIN AND SUFFERING.

THEY DON'T GIVE A FLYING F_U_C_K ABOUT YOUR, MINE, ANYONE'S OPINION ON THIS THREAD AND NEVER WILL. IT'S NOT ABOUT PEOPLE ASSAILING EACH OTHER ON INTERNET SITES OR DITTOHEAD ("left" and "right" wing) RADIO SHOWS. THAT'S THE PERFECT WASTE OF EVERYONE'S TIME THAT THE ELITES *LOVE* TO SEE.

TO "Stater of Fact - not feeling"

"Useful Idiots" is what Stalin called your ilk."

SEE ABOVE REGARDING WHAT YOUR CORPORATE MASTERS THINK OF YOU AND YOUR PATHETIC "opinion" YOU STUPID BRAINWASHED STALINIST IDIOT CLOWN.

*YOU* ARE THE PERFECT USEFUL IDIOT FOR THE BUSH REGIME, BECAUSE YOU CLAIM TO SUPPORT THEIR GOALS, WHILE THEY COUNT YOU IN AS A "supporter" AND LAUGH THEIR ASSES OFF AT YOU AND EVERY U.S. SOLDIER WHO SACRIFICES BLOOD FOR THE ELITES' OIL. (BUSH, CHENEY, AND RICE ARE OIL COMPANY EXECUTIVES)

AND FUCK ANY SO CALLED "conservatives" READING THIS,

THIS VERY INSTANT.

YOU THINK A FUCKING MULTIMILLIONAIRE OIL EXECUTIVE GIVES A FLYING FUCK ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK - ABOUT ANYTHING AT ALL?? YOU STUPID, TILLMAN-WORSHIPING 'RANGER/MARINE' MACHO FUCKBRAINS? YOU THINK THEY CARE WHAT YOU THINK, SAY OR DO??

Military Men Are Dumb, Stupid Animals
 http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/06/266675.shtml

Authors Woodward and Bernstein also note that "The Final Days" is "the work of four people. Scott Armstrong, a former Senate Watergate Committee investigator, and Al Kamen, a free-lance writer/researcher, assisted us full time in the reporting, research and some of the writing."

Kissinger's quote regarding miltary men comes from Chapter 14, which extensively discusses Al Haig, Kissinger and other Nixon staff advisors' negotiations and differences over national security issues during the 1969-1974 period.

The exact, direct quote marks begin with the word 'dumb' and terminate after the word 'used'.

Here is the FULL KISSINGER QUOTE verbatim from the bottom two lines of page 194 to line 14 of page 195:


====================
[paragraph]
In Haig's presence, Kissinger referred pointedly to military men as "dumb, stupid animals to be used" as pawns for foreign policy. Kissinger often took up a post outside the doorway to Haig's office and dressed him down in front of the secretaries for alleged acts of incompetence with which Haig was not even remotely involved. Once when the Air Force was authorized to resume bombing of North Vietnam, the planes did not fly on certain days because of bad weather. Kissinger assailed Haig. He complained bitterly that the generals had been screamin for the limits to be taken off but that now their pilots were afraid to go up in a little fog. The country needed generals who could win battles, Kissinger said, not good briefers like Haig.

[paragraph]
On another occasion, when Haig was leaving for a trip to Cambodia to meet with Premier Lon Nol, Kissinger escorted him to a staff car, where reporters and a retinue of aides waited. As Haig bent to get into the automobile, Kissinger stopped him and began polishing the single star on his shoulder. "Al, if you're a good boy, I'll get you another one," he said.
====================

SOURCE:

Bob Woodward & Carl Bernstein
The Final Days
second Touchstone paperback edition (1994)
Chapter 14, pp. 194-195


YOU STUPID NUTS.

"conservatives" are TRAITORS,

WHO HAVE STOPPED UPHOLDING THE VALUES OF THE U.S. CONSTITUTION. IN ORDER TO UPHOLD THOSE VALUES, NOW IN THE 21st CENTURY, ALL TRUE AMERICAN PATRIOTS MUST COMPLETELY REJECT GENOCIDAL MILITARISM.

"It amazes me that I have only these 2 fools to choose from."

THE TIME FOR "classifying" OURSELVES ACCORDING TO "political direction" HAS LONG AGO PASSED IN THIS COUNTRY, WHICH IS RUN BY CORPORATE BOARD MEMBERS (see White House executive branch).

THE ELITES *LOVE* IT WHEN THE MASSES (AND EVEN IF YOU MAKE $200,000 ANNUALLY YOU'RE STILL PART OF THE MASSES) "classify" THEMSELVES ACCORDING TO POLITICAL OPINIONS AND BELIEFS.

THEY *LOVE* IT WHEN EVERYONE HAS TO FALL WITHIN "Democrat", "Republican", "Dittohead", "Green" BECAUSE IT GIVES THEM MORE WAYS TO PIGEONHOLE THE ENTIRE POPULATION INTO THEIR PRE-FABRICATED POLITICAL "class system" -- THE *ONE-PARTY* CORPORATE SYSTEM.

"I don't see any signs of anyone trying to convert people to christianity. Forced conversion hasn't happened since the Crusades. If you want examples of forced conversions, try looking up the main goals of Islam. You will be surprised who is trying to convert who."

WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT, ISLAM IS THE FASTEST-GROWING RELIGION ON PLANET EARTH. PROBLEM IS, IT'S NOT AS FRIENDLY TO CAPITALISM AS FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIANITY (which involves greater and more heirarchical mind control, and is more perfect for mass media) - SO THE CORPORATIONS ARE ALWAYS TRYING NEW WAYS TO FUND AND SPREAD FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIAN VALUES ACROSS PLANET EARTH (China, for instance). THE "Moral Majority" SINCE 1980 IS PART OF THIS GIANT BOND BETWEEN US CONSERVATIVE ELITES AND FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIANS, WHO ARE ALSO TIED CLOSELY IN WITH PRO-ISRAEL SUPPORTERS:

>>>>Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs (JINSA)
On no issue is the JINSA/CSP hard line more evident than in its relentless campaign for war--not just with Iraq, but "total war," as Michael Ledeen, one of the most influential JINSAns in Washington, put it last year. For this crew, "regime change" by any means necessary in Iraq, Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia and the Palestinian Authority is an urgent imperative. Anyone who dissents--be it Colin Powell's State Department, the CIA or career military officers--is committing heresy against articles of faith that effectively hold there is no difference between US and Israeli national security interests, and that the only way to assure continued safety and prosperity for both countries is through hegemony in the Middle East--a hegemony achieved with the traditional cold war recipe of feints, force, clientism and covert action.

. . . Indeed, there are some in military and intelligence circles who have taken to using "axis of evil" in reference to JINSA and CSP, along with venerable repositories of hawkish thinking like the American Enterprise Institute and the Hudson Institute, as well as defense contractors, conservative foundations and public relations entities underwritten by far-right American Zionists (all of which help to underwrite JINSA and CSP). It's a milieu where ideology and money seamlessly blend: "Whenever you see someone identified in print or on TV as being with the Center for Security Policy or JINSA championing a position on the grounds of ideology or principle--which they are unquestionably doing with conviction--you are, nonetheless, not informed that they're also providing a sort of cover for other ideologues who just happen to stand to profit from hewing to the Likudnik and Pax Americana lines," says a veteran intelligence officer. He notes that while the United States has begun a phaseout of civilian aid to Israel that will end by 2007, government policy is to increase military aid by half the amount of civilian aid that's cut each year--which is not only a boon to both the US and Israeli weapons industries but is also crucial to realizing the far right's vision for missile defense and the Middle East.
 http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20020902&c=1&s=vest

>>>>Strange Kind of Freedom
The most astonishing -- and least covered -- story is in fact the alliance of Israeli lobbyists and Christian Zionist fundamentalists, a coalition that began in 1978 with the publication of a Likud plan to encourage fundamentalist churches to give their support to Israel. By 1980, there was an "International Christian Embassy" in Jerusalem; and in 1985, a Christian Zionist lobby emerged at a "National Prayer Breakfast for Israel" whose principal speaker was Benjamin Netanyahu, who was to become Israeli prime minister. "A sense of history, poetry and morality imbued the Christian Zionists who, more than a century ago, began to write, plan and organise for Israel's restoration," Netanyahu told his audience. The so-called National Unity Coalition for Israel became a lobbying arm of Christian Zionism with contacts in Congress and neo-conservative think-tanks in Washington.

. . . In May this year, the Israeli embassy in Washington, no less, arranged a prayer breakfast for Christian Zionists. Present were Alonzo Short, a member of the board of "Promise Keepers", and Michael Little who is president of the "Christian Broadcasting Network". Event hosts were listed as including those dour old Christian conservatives Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson, who once financed a rogue television station in southern Lebanon which threatened Muslim villagers and broadcast tirades by Major Saad Haddad, Israel's stooge militia leader in Lebanon. In Tennessee, Jewish officials invited hundreds of Christians to join Jewish crowds at a pro-Israel solidarity rally in Memphis.
 http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=313235

THE MORE SUPPORT ISRAEL GETS, THE STRONGER US FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIANITY GETS, AND THE MORE FIGHTING AND CHAOS EXISTS IN THE MIDDLE EAST (PARTLY TO PROVIDE ISRAELI 'SECURITY', AND ALSO TO SECURE THE NEW IRAQ IMPERIAL CENTRALIZED BASE OF OIL OPERATIONS, AS THE REPLACEMENT FOR NOW-FALTERING AND OIL-DECLINING SAUDI ARABIA).

"No one is calling for the wiping out of ALL muslims."

--PNAC AND THE PRO-ISRAEL CROWD HAVE CALLED FOR NOTHING LESS, AND SO HAVE MANY OF Limbaugh/Hannity/Mike Savage FOLLOWERS. THEY ARE GENOCIDE-WORSHIPERS WHOM YOU ARE CONTINUING TO FUND AND SUPPORT THIS VERY SECOND. AND WHAT DO YOU THINK THE STATED POLICY OF THE PENTAGON IS RIGHT NOW ON THE SUNNI / SHIITE COMBINED UPRISING IN IRAQ? THEY ARE COMING **TOGETHER**, NOT SPLINTERING. YOU CANNOT SEPARATE THEM INTO YOUR BULLSHIT LITTLE CATEGORIES "oh, well I'm in favor of getting these really bad guys over in this corner, because I have websites which show all of these horrible pictures blah blah blah . . .". YOU EITHER ALLOW MUSLIMS TO EXIST, FREELY, EVERYWHERE, OR YOU TRY TO MILITARILY OCCUPY THEIR COUNTRIES/CONVERT THEM TO "Captalism"/"Democracy"/SEND THEM TO CAMP X-RAY AND CAUSE THEIR ANTI-IMPERIALIST SOLIDARITY TO GROW. ONE OR THE OTHER (AND No. 2 IS THE PATH TO GENOCIDE FOR ALL MUSLIMS, WHICH PNAC, THE CHRISTIAN FUNDAMENTALISTS, AND THE PRO-ISRAELI SHARONISTS PREACH 24-7). THESE PEOPLE HAVE NO TOLERANCE.

TO "Serviceman":

"we all enjoy the freedoms of free speach."

FIRST OF ALL, IT'S _S_P_E_E_C_H_. SECOND, THE USA PATRIOT ACT IS THE BEGINNING OF OUR CONSTITUTION/BILL OF RIGHTS' DESTRUCTION. HAVE YOU TRIED TO GO SEE PRESIDENT BUSH IN PUBLIC LATELY? YOU WON'T UNLESS YOU CAN AFFORD THE $1000+ PER PLATE FUNDRAISING DINNER FEE, OR CAN BREACH THE 1-MILE MILITARIZED SECURITY SCREEN SURROUNDING HIM EVERYWHERE HE TRAVELS IN *HIS OWN COUNTRY*. WE'RE HALFWAY TO FASCIST DICTATORSHIP ALREADY.

YOU FUCKING MILITARY/Limbaugh/Hannity/Savage-WORSHIPING CLOWNS HAD BETTER WAKE THE FUCK UP IN THIS COUNTRY, BECAUSE THE NEXT STEP IS CONCENTRATION CAMPS AND MILITARY COLONIES IN IRAQ, AFGHANISTAN, SYRIA, IRAN . . . AND IF PEAK OIL HITS BEFORE THEN (which it probably will), MARTIAL LAW AND HOMELAND SECURITY TAKE OVER. AS ALWAYS, YOU WILL BE USED AS A PAWN IN THEIR GAME, TO OPPRESS YOUR BROTHERS, SISTERS, AND NEIGHBORS.

RISE UP, DESERT, CONSCIENTIOUSLY OBJECT, DRAFT-DODGE AND HIT THE MILITARY WHERE IT HURTS. ALSO, QUIT WASTING U.S. TAX DOLLARS AND YOUR OWN FAMILY BLOOD ON OPPRESSING YOUR FELLOW AMERICANS AND HUMAN BEINGS.

STOP MILITARY MADNESS.

WAKE THE FUCK UP.

NOW.

IT STARTS WITH *YOU*, "conservative" (GET RID OF THE LABELS FIRST).

[Twice] Congressional Medal of Honor recipient—Smedley Darlington Butler, retired U.S. Marine Corps Major General:

approached by representatives of the Morgan Bank who offered to finance him to establish a dictatorship of the United States to replace the Roosevelt government in 1932. He refused and went to the press. A Congressional investigation was eventually suppressed. See Jules Archer, The Plot to Seize the White House for a recent, documented version of this well-publicized (in 1932) event.

-----------------

"War is just a racket. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. ONLY A SMALL INSIDE GROUP KNOWS WHAT IT IS ABOUT. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses.

I believe in adequate defense at the coastline and nothing else. If a nation comes over here to fight, then we'll fight. The trouble with America is that when the dollar only earns 6 percent over here, then it gets restless and goes overseas to get 100 percent. Then the flag follows the dollar and the soldiers follow the flag.

I wouldn't go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of the bankers. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.

There isn't a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is blind to. It has its "finger men" to point out enemies, its "muscle men" to destroy enemies, its "brain men" to plan war preparations, and a "Big Boss" Super-Nationalistic-Capitalism.

It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent thirty- three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps.

I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high-class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.

I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.

I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.

During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents."

-----------------

"There can be no effective control of corporations while their political activity remains."
Theodore Roosevelt

---

"Private enterprise is ceasing to be free enterprise. Private enterprise indeed became too private. It became privileged enterprise, not free enterprise."
Franklin Roosevelt

---

"The masters of the Government of the United States are the combined capitalists and manufacturers of the United States . . . There was a time when corporations played a minor role in our business affairs. But now they play the chief part, and most men are servants of corporations."
Woodrow Wilson

"Is there any man here . . . who does not know that the seed of war in the modern world is industrial and commercial rivalry?"
Woodrow Wilson, St. Louis, 1919

---

"We must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist."

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."
Dwight Eisenhower

---

"Our government has kept us in a perpetual state of fear . . . kept us in a continuous stampede of patriotic fervor with the cry of grave national emergency. Always, there has been some terrible evil at home, or some monstrous foreign power that was going to gobble us up if we did not blindly rally behind it."
General Douglas MacArthur, 1957

---

"Do you want to know the cause of war? It is capitalism, greed, the dirty hunger for dollars. Take away the capitalist and you will sweep war from the earth."
Henry Ford

Well now, that was an intelligent and well thought out post. Let's see if we can use a few more cuss words and be a little more melodramatic. Save the drama for your mama.

1. I'm not allowing any money for the invasion of Iraq, except taxes, which I have little control over how they are spent. Whether my taxes are spent on war, environmental programs, or foreign aid, I or anyone else has little say in the matter.

2. Brainless, spineless and clueless sack of shit, eh?? Exactly what are you doing to further your cause??? Judging from your anti-government rhetoric, sounds like you and Tim McVeigh are in the same boat.

3. Genocidal Militarist?? Don't think so fool. I joined the military as a means of getting money for college, as my parents weren't rich. Please don't pretend to know me.

4. Conservatives might be traitors to the constitution, but democrats are no better. You've already ruled out Libertarians as well, so what boat does that leave you in, Socialist boy?

5. Islam might be the fastest growing religion on the planet. I don't think anyone really cares about that. As long as they don't get into the habit of forced conversion, which the Taliban is so fond of. I see no response to the horrid activities of muslim extremists.

6. No, we don't have to "allow muslims to exist freely, everywhere". If these extremists can't conduct themselves in a way that represents something like humanity, then bring them what they've brought others. Death. The Taliban and Al-Qaeda want to bring death and misery to their FELLOW MUSLIMS that don't agree with their leadership, then they deserve the same.

In closing, I am neither conservative or liberal. I trod the road down the middle, sometimes drifting right, sometimes drifting left. You sir are an asshole ignoramus. Posting your alarmist, hand wringing B.S. in the safety of your anonymity. It's obvious you can't conduct an adult debate without resorting to hysterics. You post everything thats wrong with america, but OFFER NO SOLUTIONS DO YOU!!!??????

Grow up little boy, and come back when you have.

It would appear that the cretans who habituate this site and the cowardly hate mongering they relish is simply the price that civilization pays for freedom of speech.

A high price, but things of value are never cheap. And in the bargin we get a veritable zoo to visit now and then.

The only reason we can even HAVE discussions of this type is because of soldiers like Pat Tillman who protect our RIGHT to do this. I'm sure the Vietnamese, Chinese, Saudis, and other "enlightened" governments give their citizens the chance to criticize their policies. You hypocrites! You take advantage of the freedom that's been given you by spitting on the very people who insure that you still HAVE that freedom.

Pat Tillman wasn't a hero or a bad guy, he was just a man who was meant to be a football star and a Army Ranger soldier. Many idiots in this discussion forum who are obviously 'COMMUNISTs SCUM', 'MARXIST PRAGMATISTs', and other forms of 'HIPPIE PUNK ANARCHISTs SOCIALISTs' lowlife wannabe's, don't get it. Regardless of how any of you morons feel about any kind of "WAR", why couldn't you have enough common sense to see that the 'Pat Tillmans'of the world are doing you spineless cowards a great service. Recruitment into all branches of the US Military is at an all time high for volunteers. Why not thank these volunteers for fighting in your place ? Why the calice attitude towards our military, why ? Because you hate honor and duty that's why ? Bitch and moan all you want the fact is the 'Pat Tillmans' of the world are doing your dirty work, even if your to ignorant to realize any of this, show them some respect you SCUM. Then again what would unsuccessful frustrated pseudo-intellectuals
know about respect and having anything of value to loose ? Maybe your rich parents haven't sent you your check for this month , right ?

What many of you dumbasses don't realize is that you have it made, so why complain ? Nobody has asked you to join the Army or whatever, so what's your problem ? Would you all feel better if Vlad Putin and Jac Charaic were
helping out in IRAQ ? Would sucking up to one of your collective mentors
make it a worthwhile WAR ? We all know that many in this forum are hoping and praying for a mandatory draft so you all can have an excuse to relive the 1960's all over again, right ? Dream on you swine the Pentagon knows better. The business of WAR is what makes our global economy what it is, get over it. Increase pay for all new soldiers and demand for more elite units is the order of the day. The military doesn't need draft types to spoil moral and purpose.

The countries that embrace the new globalism are ahead of the rest of the pack. The countries that resist are the ones that suffer. You cannot have a New American Century without harnessing these rouge countries who want to make up their own rules. Islamic influenced countries seem to lead the pack of rouge nations who mistakingly think they can use the American system to destroy America. I would rather see the Globe under the influence of America than any other place. The United Nations has outlived its usefulness it's time for its dismantling. The Global Empire is already built, now it's just a matter of getting everyone on the same page. The United States and its allies can easily replace the United Nations with a new global body. Since when has protesting against WAR stopped any WAR ? Protest and damn 'THE DAMNED' all you want you losers, your just jealous because your not the ones making the big bucks managing the global economy. I hope your all pissed off , frustrated, and broke because you still don't get it, Yee-Haw !!!!!

NOW will someone please explain HOW the US's invasion and occupation of foreign countries is somehow "defending my freedoms"?

and sprinkle it throughout their "conversation" as if it were some sort of seasoning salt?

What the fuck does COMMUNISM have to do with any of this?

I have just recently joined the marines because of the war on terrorism. this was the first time in my life i had been actually super proud of something I did. The standards to get into the military are pretty high. You must take a test called the ASVAB, and score high enough on it to enter. You must have a clean police record, no prior drug use, perfect health, no prior injuries. Even tattos are very limited. I am not questioning myself as to why I am fighting for some of you people. I will be shipped off to iraq on the 7th of May, I will be turning 20 on the 22nd of may I hope I am still alive on my 20th Birthday. I signed up for the marines to protect the people of the United states. I am am really questioning myself now. My heart is low, but then I think I am doing this for my friends, my loving family, and the people who enjoy living in a safe country free of terror. Its those people who make me strive to be better. I have enough money to go to college, as a matter of fact I had a full basketball scholarship this year, and played bball at a JUCO. I am a marine now and will be. I am brave enough to sacrifice my life, for ALL AMERICANS.

Lets say that the us military didnt exist, and the wars we fought we lost. We are run by another country, or worse, the us doesnt exist. You are here today because soldiers fought for you, they put their life on the line to keep you alive and free. Had this not happened, we probably wouldnt be there today
Whether you support the war or not i do not feel as if you should bad mouth the troops. they are fighting for you, they are fighting for you so that 9/11 doesnt keep repeating themselves. My girlfriend died in 9/11, I was going to propose to her, and I didnt get that chance because terrorists wanted everybody dead. They do not care about you view on the us or whether or not you are on their side, because I bet they would love a chance to kill ANY american. they are kidnapping other people from other countries, torturing them and killing them. SAY there was a draft,and you got drafted or a family member did, would you call them names and not support them? how would you feel if they got captured and tortured, and then broadcasted on tv. I have nothing more to say

I have just recently joined the marines because of the war on terrorism. this was the first time in my life i had been actually super proud of something I did. The standards to get into the military are pretty high. You must take a test called the ASVAB, and score high enough on it to enter. You must have a clean police record, no prior drug use, perfect health, no prior injuries. Even tattos are very limited. I am not questioning myself as to why I am fighting for some of you people. I will be shipped off to iraq on the 7th of May, I will be turning 20 on the 22nd of may I hope I am still alive on my 20th Birthday. I signed up for the marines to protect the people of the United states. I am am really questioning myself now. My heart is low, but then I think I am doing this for my friends, my loving family, and the people who enjoy living in a safe country free of terror. Its those people who make me strive to be better. I have enough money to go to college, as a matter of fact I had a full basketball scholarship this year, and played bball at a JUCO. I am a marine now and will be. I am brave enough to sacrifice my life, for ALL AMERICANS.

Lets say that the us military didnt exist, and the wars we fought we lost. We are run by another country, or worse, the us doesnt exist. You are here today because soldiers fought for you, they put their life on the line to keep you alive and free. Had this not happened, we probably wouldnt be there today
Whether you support the war or not i do not feel as if you should bad mouth the troops. they are fighting for you, they are fighting for you so that 9/11 doesnt keep repeating themselves. My girlfriend died in 9/11, I was going to propose to her, and I didnt get that chance because terrorists wanted everybody dead. They do not care about you view on the us or whether or not you are on their side, because I bet they would love a chance to kill ANY american. they are kidnapping other people from other countries, torturing them and killing them. SAY there was a draft,and you got drafted or a family member did, would you call them names and not support them? how would you feel if they got captured and tortured, and then broadcasted on tv. I have nothing more to say

Lets see...a hero or not? I understand that Oregonians are the dumbest in the country (by your own admission), but this is ridiculous. Of course he is a hero, not because of football, or just being a soldier. This man gave up more income then you pathetic idiots will make in your life to defend the very fuckin freedom you assholes enjoy daily. More then that, he would not accept media attention to himself. No showboating or gloating came from him. You all disgust me! I don't hear of many Oregonians getting killed overseas, and why? Not because of luck or skill, but because their aren't many of you there because you don't have the sack to fight for your country. So before you go off and hate what you are reading, look in the mirror and understand that you have the RIGHT to disagree with this because people like Tillman have died. Beyond that, why don't some of you uneducated liberals go get some schooling and grow a damn brain, since as of now, you are the laughing stock of the nation. Have a nice day.

Former Air Force Service Member and Marine:
Thank you, from a grateful American.

it's people like you who really make me feel like I made the right choice
you are welcome

it's people like you who really make me feel like I made the right choice
you are welcome

GRINGO STARS (who is still a coward for not using his real name) writes:

"NOW will someone please explain HOW the US's invasion and occupation of foreign countries is somehow "defending my freedoms"?"

This statement - pure periphrasis - sounds at first glance as though it has some merit. However, upon closer examination it is a straw man.

"...invasion and occupation of foreign countries...". This is what the Greeks called Synecdoche: using a whole for the part or a part for the whole. Basically, what El Gringo is doing is trying to lump Afghanistan and Iraq in with all other countries, since he doesn't specifically cite them and, instead, uses the generic "foreign countries".

It won't work. Why? Because it's hyperbole. How do I know this? Because I'm smarter than he is.

And he got caught.

So, the question itslef is intended to be a feint. It's a way of casting the net over an ocean when you're true intention is to catch a minnow in the bay. Who would argue with such a "noble" idea? "...invasion and occupation..." indeed. Of "foreign countries" no less (all 150+ of them).

Well, only the truly sick among us would want THAT (or, at least, that's the implication - and the question is asked SOLEY TO MAKE THAT IMPLICATION).

Hello, McFly! (Small rapping noise...)

Even though your question is illegitimate (coming from your chad-infested subconscious), I'll posit a response, nay, a ripost, knowing full well you will reject it out of hand because you really DON'T want an answer.

Let's repeat the question for those here with ADD: "NOW will someone please explain HOW the US's invasion and occupation of foreign countries is somehow "defending my freedoms"?"

Here's how: Al Queda (that "mythical" organization) wants to kill you because you're American. If 9/11 didn't teach you anything, it should have at least taught you that.

They (Al Queda, replete with the mists of myth about its ankles) have declared war on the U.S. They want to eliminate your government (those two "other" planes - the one that hit the Pentagon and the one that crashed in Pennsylvania - have been widely surmised to have been aiming for the White House and The Capital building - hey, look what happened in Spain: a bomb, the government falls), they want to eliminate the economic freedom you have (WTC was the epicenter of the financial district, and as much as you hate anything having to do with a free economy, taking out the Financial District would have crippled your ability to freely exchange currency and would have, at least, driven up prices - remember all those gas stations that cranked their prices up to $5.00 a gallon on 9/11?), they want to eliminate your freedom of expression (how many Independent Media Centers were there under the Taliban? In Fundamentalist Islamic countries, you say the wrong thing, you get killed in very nasty and painful ways - as an example to others, of course), they want to eliminate your freedom of association (you WILL become a Muslim and only associate with Muslims), they want to eliminate your freedom to come as go as you wish....

I could go on and on.

So, when these ephemeral Al Quedists attack you, when they put these plans in operation, the government has an obligation to defend you, and to defend your freedoms (even the freedom to look remarkably stupid on this website).

Invading Afghanistan and eliminating the Taliban and Al Queda's ghost-like leaders took away a huge threat to America - and to your freedoms. Think, Chester: did you know the Sears Tower was next on their list? How many other bombs have to go off, how many other of your fellow citizens have to die horrible deaths - deaths I wouldn't even wish on you (like jumping out of a 100-story building rather than burning to death) - before you see that we must eliminate this threat NOW, and not wait until we get permission from the World Court or the UN (even though we DID get permission from the UN, but everyone conveniently forgets that - 1441).

Invading Iraq took out a major player in international terrorism. If you don't think Saddam was aiding and abeting these violent freaks, you're whistling up a small fern. Wasn't the training jetliner hulk near Bagdad enough evidence for you?

And, as a result of our actions, Kadaffi has promised to be a good boy and disarm. HE saw the light in the 1980s when Reagan brought his chickens home to roost by bombing his HOUSE after his thugs bombed that German disco because American troops were partying there.

Islamic Fundamentalists think we're weak, we're decadant, that we have no moral strength. They want to make the WHOLE WORLD Islamic - their brand of Islam. MOST Muslims are great people. They hate the fundamentalists as much as you hate... everything.

But, the fundamentalists want only to spread radical Islam throughout the world - and the want they want to do it is by KILLING everyone who isn't a radical Muslim, or who won't convert.

So, finally, your freedom of religion is at stake (everyone is religious, even if they are atheists).

Oh, and let's not forget the ladies. How many liberated western women want to be ruled by radical Muslims? Better get measured for your Burkas now, gals, because El Gringrunge doesn't mind if Al Queda takes away their right to wear sports bras in public....

There. I answered your question. You, obviously, will reject everything I have said, hurl expletives at me, claim I am a beer-swilling, middle-American bubba with the intelligence of a newt (even though my IQ is 140).

And you will slather out this rejection in scathing swatches while not even having the courtesy or courage to post your real name.

But, that's OK. It's expected, really. You are blinded by your hate.

Hate, Hate, Hate.

It's all you can do.

It's all you know.

"Gringo Stars", you obvliously arent the sharpest tool in the shed now are you? Not if you cling to the notion that Islam is all peacefull. Lets compare, how many lives has Christianity taken in the past 100 years? How many lives have Muslims taken in the past 100 because of their religion? They hate us my friend, they hate our freedoms, our influences, our opinions, our "sex, drugs and rock and roll". Lets not forget about our whore women in Afghanistan in the 1970's with their partying and public displays of affection. Then our liberal government arming the Taliban and running off the Russians! Why wouldnt they hate us pal? Read the Koran, it says to KILL the infidel...and yes moron...this statement includes you unless you convert. So go ahead, get ready to be a lampshade and have your wife made a slave or get ready to stand at post my friend, because in their eyes, its coming!

Someone pointed out that 70% of Europeans think George Bush is more dangerous than Hussein. I wonder why anyone in America would care what a continent full of self-centered cowards think?
This is the same Europe that sat back and let one of the vilest murderers in history rise to power because they lacked the genitals to stand up to him. Without the intervention of the United States all of the would be speaking German. A vast number of them would have blue numbers on their arm, waiting for their turn in the oven. I also would like someone to docuement the "millions" of their people we have killed/murdered? You can't do it. No leader of a democratic country has ever committed genocide on their own people or on others on that scale. That level of murder is reserved for facists and socialist powers that liberals so admire.
Simple facts... Saddam Hussein had a proven history of use of weapons of mass destruction. As for the claim we haven't found them, this is a flat-out lie perpetuated by the liberal media. Can it be explained why we are finding tons of "pesticides" stored in underground fortified bunkers? Thats what many of the weapons we have found have been classified as. Were the Iraqis afraid a horde of locust were going to organize, rise up, and begin destroying pesticide production facilities? The fact is that most chemical weapons are built on the same basic molecualr structure as common pesticides.
However, even if we never found ONE SINGLE WEAPON we were justified in invading Iraq. Hussein was a threat to the entire world. He was desperately attempting to gain nuclear capabilities. Had we done so, we would have another N. Korea sitting in the Middle East.
I also want to know how any "feminist" could be opposed to the overthrow of Hussein. This was a country where rape was pretty much an official govt policy to deal with insurrection. This is a country where members of the military and secret police got to "break in" women on their wedding nights. Maybe you should redirect your energies to anther cause other than the murder of babies as a "right to privacy".

I echo the sentiments of Just observing.
I am appreciative beyond words for the work of our service members.
I am also utterly embarrassed that our service members and
Veterans have read such hoggish drivel.


John 15:13 "Greater a love hath no man than this: that he lay down
his life for his friends"

God speed, Marine.

"The only reason we can even HAVE discussions of this type is because of soldiers like Pat Tillman who protect our RIGHT to do this"

At the moment, it seems to me the only reason we can even have this discussion is because the residents of this forum have chosen to be far more tolerant and open-minded than I have ever known the residents of any right-wing forum to be.

If you want anyone to think you're making the least amount of sense, the first thing you ought to try to do is try to distinguish between wars where some country posted an actual threat, and where some country didn't. I have no idea how Tillman's death contributes to my freedoms, because Iraq was never at our borders, they never had a missile that could reach us, they weren't responsible for 9-11, and they had no plans drafted to conquer America and take away our freedoms, did they?

I have family members who fought in real wars, against real threats, against real enemies, and I can be duly proud of that. This doesn't change the fact that when we get to,

"but if I had a brother killed in the service and saw someone on the street talking ill of him, you would surely face my wrath"

Right, they died for our freedom to put our own foot in our own mouth, so this fellow could turn around and try to take away that freedom with his fists, I suppose? Then what did they die for?

If I had a brother killed in the service somewhere where we did NOT need to be, so that the oil barons could get their hands on more oil, I may love them and I may weep, but even I'd be calling them a dumb*ss for getting themselves into a skirmish we didn't need to be in (or for dying in any other senseless event that could easily have been prevented, for that matter).

"You're right, you didn't ask anyone to "die for your right to do anything". No, it was handed to you right in your fucking lap when you were born, something that millions of people in this world wish they had"

Maybe it would mean more to me if I had to fight for it myself, but I haven't seen the US in a war happen in my lifetime that looks justified to me. If I didn't ask for something, it doesn't get more valuable to me because it was shipped faster or because filling out the order form was easier, I didn't order it period. If I just waltz right into your garage and start doing work on your car that you didn't ask for, are you supposed to be thrilled because you didn't even have to ask, or are you going to wish that someone consulted you first, especially if I try to hold this "favor" over your head the rest of your life? You, or I, would call that a "bill of goods" plain and simple. That's freedom, having those choices made for me, and lorded over me in perpetuity? I don't think so. You want to do something for me that I'd be grateful for? Then don't come home in a bodybag from somewhere we did not need to go.

My partner in life handles disability claims from some of the lucky people that have been sent off to "die for my freedom," I don't know the names or faces that go with the stories because they are none of my business but I know about the ghosts that follow those who've watched, or participated in, the killing women and children, and will follow them as long as they live, I know how often those ghosts find their way into this home. My father had no such ghosts, he had a pride that has been denied to every serviceman sent to fight somewhere they just did not need to be or ordered to do things they just did not need to do.

"They died, they died, they died for my freedoms..."- save that guilt for someone it will work on because that someone isn't me, I can't think of a greater waste of your time than to keep sawing that log. Do you think you'll make me cherish my freedom more by incessantly reminding me how many unsuspecting young Americans died needlessly for it?- and which freedoms were those? Apparently they include the freedom to flap my jaw like a pointless fool, but they apparently didn't include the freedom to say, "hey, don't go get killed on my account" or "hey, don't shoot up any civilians for my sake". The more innocent people I see killed in a needless bloodbath, the more I wish most of all that was a freedom that I had is to fight my
"battles for my freedoms" myself if I sincerely thought our freedoms were in danger.

Tillman may well be a brave hero who died in vain, one of many. I am so sorry to have to say that but that's the truth as far as I can tell, his death is a tragedy compounded a hundredfold by being a needless one. Stop spinning your brain in circles with the impossible task of trying to milk sense out of needless, senseless deaths, and if you don't like that being the way it is, then by all means, take it up with Our Great Leader or his mouthpieces.

I'll say it again, Iraq was never massed at our borders, we were never in range of their weapons, and no one seems to be able to call 9-11 more than a lucky shot, a fluke where we got caught with our pants down, so where was the ongoing danger there even if Iraq had anything to do with it in the frist place? That is not the kind of war my father (God rest his soul) or my uncles fought in, thank you, and they would be, or would have been, the first to tell you so.

I think some people are at least starting to understand each other on this thread, even if they are not admitting it and flaming each other. Indymedia is a weapon of mass instruction. No searching required.

I really appreciate those that are willing to sacrifice their lives for something they believe in. (I really liked the 19 year old's post...very sincere) I personally wish they were willing to do that in the street and not against another country. But, those of us that would die defending the constitution, rather than the president or our way of life (in terms of money, standards of living) are very similar to the military people. We are just aiming at different parts of a whole. I think, we as radicals could take a lesson from the solidiers in terms of committment to our cause.

I must object that the military did NOT win a war that created the US. We all learned in history class that a THE PEOPLE, not an organized national military, rose up against King George. That's true, right? Ok... so it was the people of the (soon to be) US that won our freedom, not the military. From King George's point of view, we, the people, were the insurgents, the rebels, the socialists, the political enemies, etc. That's true, right? Ok..

Now the first thing that we, the people, did was to create a constitution... we, the people, did NOT create a military first. In fact, we specifically created checks and balances against the military. The 2nd amendment provides for the right to bear arms. Of course, this was not so that we could bear arms against some invading force outside the country. This was so that we, the people, could defend ourselves against our own government. This came out of the fact that King George would not allow the colonists (notice that word, colonists) to have guns. We, the people, did not write in the 2nd amendment so that people could go hunting or defend themselves against their neighbors.... That's true, right? Ok..

What's the first thing that we, the people, added to the constitution? The 1st amendment. It was really important to the people who rose up against their own government, which was preventing them from speaking, not allowing them to easily get guns, and forcing them to pay unfair taxes, to have the right to freedom of speech. For those who are in the military please understand that radicals are fighting to DIRECTLY preserve and use the 1st amendment. Even if the US were ruled by another country some people stil here would be fighting to speak freely and some people would fighting to make money freely? It was very important to we, the people, to SPEAK freely not to kill freely. That's why the 1st amendment is first and the 2nd amendment second.

In order to preserve our freedom of speech, we have to speak and be heard. Be heard by our neighbors, like those that are coming to this site for the first time, and be heard by our government when we march on the street. If our government doesn't hear us, we have to use the provisions of the 2nd amendment....that's what it's there for....not duck hunting.

If our way of life, the US, ever falls it will be a combination of things that make it fall, not one thing or the other. It will be because we and our neighbors weren't willing to give our lives, DIRECTLY, in the streets, on the internet (believe it or not), in books, wherever, for the freedom of speech. It will be because we really did get spineless, fat and happy and wouldn't fight against an INVADER. It will be many things.... and of course, the reason we are all so tense about this is because we know it is going to happen sooner than later. Our enemies, for whatever reasons, jealousy of our way of life, our interference in their politics, culture, business, are going to get tired of us being on top. They will come for us. They won't be countries like Iraq and Afghanistan that don't have armies. You will never see the US invade North Korea or anyone even remotely our size militarly. Because we are spineless and greedy. It's not about victory, it's about oil. When we don't go into North Korea and there ARE nuclear weapons, no need to search, you will know that Iraq and Afghanistan are about oil. They will come for us and they will win. We won't be on top. Americans will be hunted from side of the planet to the other. The only way we can prevent this is defend with our lives, seriously, the rights of ourselves and EVEN and MAYBE ESPECIALLY those we don't agree with to speak freely. Also, and maybe more importantly, we need to start treating other people's (countries, etc.) with respect and not try to take what is not rightfully ourselves or abuse our power against them. If we do this, when they win, which they will, the chances of us getting some mercy are much greater.

So I'm asking those that would give their lives to defend what is really the thing that is beautiful and different about the US, freedom of speech and democracy, to it defend with their lives, HERE, on the streets, in the congress, and everywhere in US. If you wish to feel like you are defending me with your life, I bless you, but, please brother, do it here against this government, and what it has become since we, the people, won the REVOLUTIONARY war. I will be really grateful and I will drop ticker tape from my office window on you when you come back from the march.... and I will mourn every fallen person....and unlike my mourning for Pat Tillman, I will not feel it was a wasted life sent to die by a government that doesn't really care about him or his future.... I will mourn him because he gave his life for ME and something that is truly good.

ray

Don't do me any favors (another coward who won't post his real name) wrote:

"Do you think you'll make me cherish my freedom more by incessantly reminding me how many unsuspecting young Americans died needlessly for it?- and which freedoms were those? Apparently they include the freedom to flap my jaw like a pointless fool, but they apparently didn't include the freedom to say, "hey, don't go get killed on my account" or "hey, don't shoot up any civilians for my sake". The more innocent people I see killed in a needless bloodbath, the more I wish most of all that was a freedom that I had is to fight my "battles for my freedoms" myself if I sincerely thought our freedoms were in danger."

1. Since this clever little discussion started with the celebration over the death of "dumb jock" Pat Tillman, your point "unsuspecting young Americans" is moot. Tillman knew what he was getting himself into: that's WHY he joined. In fact, the military you so readily ridicule is ENTIRELY VOLUNTEER. Look the word "volunteer" up if you don't know what it means.

And, sadly for your point, re-inlistment is at an all-time high. These young men and women KNOW what they're doing, and they want to finish the job; unlike some presidential candidate we know who bailed after his third Purple Heart (lots of guys in Iraq and Afghanistan stay on even though they got their third PH).

2. Yes, they are fighting for you to have the freedom to "flap your jaw like a pointless fool". At least you admit you're a pointless fool, even if you won't share your real name.

3. And you DO have the freedom to say, "hey, don't go get killed on my account" or "hey, don't shoot up any civilians for my sake". How do I know this? BECAUSE YOU JUST SAID IT, IDIOT! Is anyone beating down your door to lop off your head in the streets? Are you being disembowled at this very moment? No, you're sitting back in your little chair, re-reading your post with an air of self-satisfaction (thinking, "How clever I am."), waiting for people who will disagree with you.

4. "the more I wish most of all that was a freedom that I had is to fight my "battles for my freedoms" myself if I sincerely thought our freedoms were in danger."" - huh? Speak english, boy.

Oh, and by-the-by, your little quip about this being a right-wing website was LOL funny. You obviously just surfed in from some secluded spot and read only a couple of the pro-freedom posters here who are proud of the men and women who are fighting for your right to look like a complete ass.

Pat Tillman is a true American hero. He gave everything so we may remain free. Pat knew the terrorist threat was real and he did the right thing. I wish that we all could learn by his example of giving of ones self for his fellow Americans. There are so many others who seek to bring down and make little of what a great nation we have in these United States. We should look to a leader such as George W. Bush as another example of great leadership of one who is giving his all for our great nation in this time of war. I pray to The Lord Jesus Christ that people like John Kerry never are allowed in such positions of power and leadership, because they don't know the price of giving of ones self for the greater good of America. Kerry continues to show leadership that favors surrender to our enemies, giving in and becoming the new France of the America's. May GOD have mercy on us all.
GOD Bless America

I Was reading some of the comments on Mr Tilliman. Thay angered me to know end to call him a dumb jock and a baby killer. His family have not even got over there grieving process. With thesee Liberal scum and haters of America. Tear into this Great American with there hate of him and our country. Mr Teliman did not even have to go over there. But he made Brave choice to do so for his country. I read were some of these Liberal scum writers wrote. That he was killing Brown people with high tech weapons. Have all of you Liberal scum forgot what happen on Sept 11 2001. It was those Brown People who started all of this. With there great terrorist attack that Murdered 3000 Americans. Yeah you hate American crowd first. I just wish that Liberal scum would fall off this Great Earth.

Don't do me any favors said:

"I have no idea how Tillman's death contributes to my freedoms, because Iraq was never at our borders, they never had a missile that could reach us, they weren't responsible for 9-11, and they had no plans drafted to conquer America and take away our freedoms, did they?"

Tillman was killed in Afghanistan. Oops!

i have one thing to say to the honorable Thomas (and i guess your real name is Thomas? and what, mine isnt yak?)

unfortunately, i dont have the time to combat every one of your assertions regarding how we are free in this country thanks to the military.

i will point out for you the fact that "foreign countries" is plural, as in more than one, and to imply that G STARS meant to imply every country in the world is so utterly ridiculous i dont even need to address it.

second, you state that "Here's how: Al Queda (that "mythical" organization) wants to kill you because you're American. If 9/11 didn't teach you anything, it should have at least taught you that." this is your proof? that al-queda wants to kill me? hello, mcfly yourself. listen very very hard my friend: I WOULD LIKE YOU TO POINT OUT, SHOW, OR OTHERWISE LIST YOUR EVIDENCE THAT AL-QUEDA IS RESPONSIBLE FOR 9/11. do not laugh. i seriously challenge you to present ANY evidence that al-queda and/or Osama Bin Laden were responsible. once you do this we can continue the discussion. The only evidence to date i ave been able to find consists of: mohammed atta's passport found on the ground blocks away from the collapsed buildings, and video of bin laden stating that america got what it deserved and attacks will continue. if you could point out a release where Bin Laden TOOK CREDIT FOR 9/11 i would sincerely thank you as i have been researching this for a while and have been unable to find any conclusive evidence that al-queda and bin laden were responsible. if you have other evidence please post it. and evidence is not muslims hate americans and want to kill them. evidence is a passenger list, DNA, a black box, a bin laden transcript, or something similar. thank you

"i could go on and on"

Please, by all means, do so.

"And, sadly for your point, re-inlistment is at an all-time high."

exactly why intelligent and concerned people are upset.

"These young men and women KNOW what they're doing, and they want to finish the job;"

they do not. they do not. they do not. they believe/think they are going overseas to defend this country from terrorism. they are not. they are going overseas to make the world safe for american capitalism. there is a fundamental difference.

"unlike some presidential candidate we know who bailed after his third Purple Heart (lots of guys in Iraq and Afghanistan stay on even though they got their third PH)."

this statement simply and absolutely proves you are not interested in a dialouge. what? you are able to defend every soldier fighting for this country EXCEPT when they are a democratic presidential cadidate? what about the two sisters who have not gone back to iraq after the death of their sister? are they cowards? if i called them cowards you would call me a liberal pussy commie. well...?

to go back to your contention that recruitment is at an all time high:
think about this: THIS IS WHY PEOPLE ARE UPSET ABOUT THE HERO WORSHIP OF TILLMAN. people are upset because it focuses on his all-american stature, his football-playing good old guy attitude. this encourage our young people to idolize people like tillman, something tillman himself would probably not want. this is why some people are upset with the media coverage of his death. same with the coffins being shown. most from the right want them shown out of honor. the left wants them shown out of honesty. yet still the government will not allow it. think about it.

"There. I answered your question. You, obviously, will reject everything I have said, hurl expletives at me, claim I am a beer-swilling, middle-American bubba with the intelligence of a newt (even though my IQ is 140)."

i have done none of these things. it remains to be seen if you are able to answer the questions i have asked in this post.

"And you will slather out this rejection in scathing swatches while not even having the courtesy or courage to post your real name."

please explain to me how posting me real name is courageous Thomas? how many Thomas's are there in this country? that is your idea of courage?

"But, that's OK. It's expected, really. You are blinded by your hate. Hate, Hate, Hate. It's all you can do. It's all you know."

You are wrong. I have never voiced hatred for anyone, except government POLICIES i disagree with. I am waiting for answers to my questions.

What an interesting group of postings. Sad to see cursewords and insults, however.

Here's my thoughts.

Gringo Stars wants to know why we are invading foreign lands and occupying them. I assume he means Afghanistan and Iraq. In simple terms, that's where our attackers are from. Even the most dovish posters on this forum will turn into a war hawk when their family and friends get blown up. They will stop singing Kumbaya at that point and then grab a gun. Some don't wait for family and friends to die, Tillman joined the Army after 9/11. It's all a matter of how much abuse you can take from fanatical killers.

I think that Gringo has the antiquated notion that we shouldn't attack anybody until their army shows up on our shores. Well, wars are now fought guerilla style. Islamofacists don't have an organized, uniformed army. Infiltrate and attack behind your back, that's what they do. The response to that warfare tactic is to attack their source, their base. And those bases were in Afghanistan and Iraq. Don't think that Iraq had terrorist ties? Do a google search on the words "Salman Pak". In addition, wasn't it interesting that one of the largest terrorist masterminds of the past few decades, Abu Nidal, was found in Baghdad? Wasn't it interesting that the attempted terrorist attack in Jordan last week, was from terrorists who said they got their chemical supplies from Iraq?

The United States has the best standard of living in the world. Isn't it interesting that the anti-capitalists hate the system that brought us that! In fact, the computer they use for this forum was supplied by none other than...capitalists! I'm waiting for them to show me the computer they use was designed and made in Cuba, the old USSR, North Korea, etc.

Oh, and they whine about the evil corporations. What makes up a corporation? How about secretaries, security guards, janitors, low level managers, etc. Just everyday people trying to make a buck and support their families. (without fear of getting blown up)

If Egypt can make peace with Israel, so can the rest of the Arab countries. As far as Palestinians are concerned, there arn't any. They are actually displaced Jordanians who didn't want to go back to Jordan. Bone up on your middle east history and you will agree. The Palestinians are being used as pawns by the Arab world. Isn't it interesting that actor Sean Penn's second diary from Iraq mentioned that the imported Palestinians from Saddam's pan-arab campaign were thrown out of Baghdad by the local Iraqi's right after Saddam was deposed! It seems that the Arabs themselves don't like the Palestinians either!

As far as other "occupations" are concerned, on Bosnia, I agree with the anti-war people. We should have never gotten involved. That ethnic hatred has been raging for 800 years (read your history). There is no way to sing Kumbaya to fix it. It's caused by parents teaching their kids hatred for their neighbor. For many generations! It has to burn itself out, and unfortunately, it usually burns itself out with a lot of killing and civil war.

Have a happy and healthy life. And thank a soldier for helping us not get blown up!

Martyr John et al...

John Kerry sucks....but he went to Vietnam and was a three time, is that right?, decorated...at least two purple hearts? I think, from a militaristic point of view, John Kerry certainly knows about stuff more than GW. GW did, in fact, go AWOL from the Texas Air Guard. Doesn't that bother any of the folks in currently? I'm not being sarcastic. Does it bother anybody who might be reading this, who is in the military, the GW went AWOL and avoided tours in Vietnam? I really don't know anyone in the military, so I don't know their point of view on this.

As I head off to Baghdad for the final weeks of my stay in Iraq, I
wanted to say thanks to all of you who did not believe the media. They have done a very poor job of covering everything that has happened.

I'm sorry that I have not been able to visit all of you during my two week leave back home. And just so you can rest at night knowing something is happening in Iraq that is noteworthy, I thought I'd pass this on to you. This is the list of things that has happened in Iraq recently: (Please share it with your friends and compare it to the version that
your paper is producing)

-Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time
ever in Iraq.
-Over 400,000 kids have up to date immunizations.
-Over 1500 schools have been renovated and ridded of the weapons that
were stored there so education can occur.
-The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off loaded from
ships faster.
-School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war.
-The country had it's first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.
-The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before
the war
-100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed compared to 35%
before the war.
-Elections are taking place in every major city and city councils are
in place.
-Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.
-Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.
-Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.
-Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side
with US soldiers.
-Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever.
-Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to
prevent the spread of germs.
-An interim constitution has been signed.
-Girls are allowed to attend school for the first time ever in Iraq.
-Text books that don't mention Saddam are in the schools for the first
time in 30 years.

Don't believe for one second that these people do not want us there. I have met many, many people from Iraq that want us there and in a bad way. They say they will never see the freedoms we talk about but they hope their children will.

We are doing a good job in Iraq and I challenge anyone, anywhere to dispute me on these facts. So If you happen to run into John Kerry, be sure to give him my email address and send him to Denison, Iowa. This soldier will set him straight..

Every one of you left wing idoits are able to open your big fat mouths and spout the trash you call "thought" can do so because of the contributions of those like Pat Tillman who gave their lives so that all of us can have the right of self expression. Before you even begin to think that you have the right to condemn him, think first about the fact that 3,000 innocent citizens of our country died for no reason other than the hate that some people had for our country. Each of you who are condemning Pat as a "Dumb Jock", please realize that Pat chose to do something about that fact. We need to defend ourselves from those who wish us harm. If we do not, then they will see this as nothing more than the confirmation of their thoughts that we will not stand up to their aggression and they will strike again, and again and again, until we do stand up for ourselves. I thank Pat, and the many men and women in our armed forces who have given, are giving and will give their all so that we can have the freedom to live life as we choose. Pat gave his life so that you may think as you wish. Please respect the gift he, and many like him, have given to you. I was taught that you should always so kindness to those that give you gifts as to do otherwise is to denegrate the gift, the gift giver and yourself. When you take your next breath, remember, there are many thousands of Americans who have died so that you can do so. Show them some respect and deference and just accept the gift give and say thank you.

whiteout said..
GW did, in fact, go AWOL from the Texas Air Guard. Doesn't that bother any of the folks in currently? I'm not being sarcastic. Does it bother anybody who might be reading this, who is in the military, the GW went AWOL and avoided tours in Vietnam? I really don't know anyone in the military, so I don't know their point of view on this

Not true. GW did not go AWOL. He wouldn't have had a honorable discharge if he did. He got a waiver to go work on a political campaign. After that, he came back and fulfilled the rest of his duties. He didn't avoid Vietnam, any more than Clinton did. I don't remember liberals complaining about Clinton's avoidance. GW at least signed up for the National Guard. (instead of going over to Oxford, as Clinton did.) GW signed up for the kind of army (national guard) that you anti-war types like to have!

Face it. Indymedia is crap. This Pat Tillman stuff is only further proof of it.

On top of it their editorial policy is a bad joke that is only barely enforced. Their standards are non-existant.

I feel ashamed of my country, every soldier who ever died, or whoever served our country is a hero. Just because I did not get a pro football contract doesnt make me any less valuable than Pat Tillman, but they are praising him because he gave up his football career, and all that money to fight for every single citizen of this country.He proves that there are still some good people out there willing to do anything. He fought for his fellow americans, and for any other person that was hunted down by saddam, or terrorists. Whether or not you support me, I will fight for you
I will take out my weapon and kill for you if need be. I will not let our country be subject to another devastating attack, killing lots of americans. If my life, and a many others lives are sacrificed for your well being, your life, your kids, and you families, then so be it. Ill fight for my fiancee, that ill never get to call my wife, or have kids with her. Ill fight for my 75 year old grandma, Ill fight for all you people who are criticizing me. 5 years from now when we are still going strong and you are safe in your own home, when terrorist countries arent making parking lots out of our huge cities, then thank those who fought for you. God Bless you all, and hopefully one day you will realize what was done for YOU..........

I appreciate the response about GW and his record. I didn't get the same information. It seems possible that he could have got an honorable discharge by some political means, though. That's how he avoided the draft in the first place, right? But, he didn't go to vietnam, so he did avoid duty there. Kerry didn't avoid duty.

Again, none of the people who generally read this indymedia site for information like Kerry or Clinton, any democrat or any repbulican. It's a whole different ballgame. People here are generally anti-government, with the exception of maybe some sort local government.

Still curious if it bothers anyone currently in the military that GW was able to avoid duty in Vietnam because, if the previous poster was correct, he got permission to work on politics while his fellow Texans died, AWOL or not? Again, this is not a political question, I can't stand any politicans democrat, republican, independent, whatever. So what do you all say? Does it bother you a little?

Although the right to free speech exist here in the U.S., this right certainly does not protect your expression from ridicule.

The WW2 memorial, long overdue, is now open. Although I'm not a history buff, I do recall the 'idealogy' the Allied Forces were fighting against; Aryian supremacy resulting, at minimum, in the extermination/genocide of all other races (inclues all brown-people). A very noble cause the Allied Forces fought for.

In today's War on Terrorism, which I will coin as WW3, is, again, a fight against an 'idealogy'; Islamic Supremacy - those who do not convert to islam and govern their country by Islamic law, will be executed. Hmmm...sounds somewhat familiar. A very noble cause Pat Tilman died for in Afganistan. This war has everything to do with the Iraqi war and Sadam's ambition for WMD, willingness to use it, and the instability Sadam brought to the entire Middle East region.

The threat Sadam posed included the POTENTIAL aquisition of WMD and high probability of providing the WMD to support the islamic supremacy 'ideology', and the high probability of Sadam to wage another war in the region. Don't kid yourself, many in the region are happy to see Sadam go and who gives a flying fuck as to whether we found WMD in Iraq. 'Yea, but that was the basis for going...' Fuck off.

World Peace is possible given the assumption that all people in all cultures want the same thing. Will this assmption ever be true? If not, then people are going to die. But that's okay...keep taking hits from the bong and bad mouth the U.S. without making any specific recommendations to solving the 'idealogy' problem.

I have seen it posted here that some of us don't know what this site is about...from the comments on the board, I am pretty sure I know what it is about.
So, the murder of unborn children is okay, but fighting against an armed man is wrong? Yeah.

yeah those people tend to disagree on the war...........they think its alright to abort a fetus......which is infact a baby

Do you not understand that this man's love for his county was greater than any worldly or personal thing that could have been offered to him. It is because of people like him that you have the freedom to write these horrific things. There needs to be more people like Pat Tillman. If it was not for people like him where would we be today.

You left wing, socialistic, tree loving people make me sick. This man died for you and your children. He died so you could continue to live in a free society.

Wake up.

"Well now, that was an intelligent and well thought out post. Let's see if we can use a few more cuss words and be a little more melodramatic. Save the drama for your mama."

--TRY CONFRONTING AND COMPREHENDING EVERYTHING I'VE BROUGHT UP.

"1. I'm not allowing any money for the invasion of Iraq, except taxes, which I have little control over how they are spent. Whether my taxes are spent on war, environmental programs, or foreign aid, I or anyone else has little say in the matter."

--YOU ARE A LYING CHICKENSHIT LAZY TRAITOR. YOU HAVE ALLOWED YOUR "conservative" CORPORATE MASTERS TO TRASH OUR CONSTITUTION, BRING THE FEDERAL BUDGET DEFICIT TO ITS HIGHEST LEVEL OF ALL TIME. THANK YOU "devilmarine", FOR HELPING TO DESTROY OUR COUNTRY. $5 BILLION PER MONTH FOR IRAQ, ALONE.

"2. Brainless, spineless and clueless sack of shit, eh?? Exactly what are you doing to further your cause??? Judging from your anti-government rhetoric, sounds like you and Tim McVeigh are in the same boat."

--YEAH, THAT'S YOU. AND "Tim McVeigh" WAS ANOTHER GENOCIDAL MILITARIST JUST LIKE YOU. (what actually happened in Oklahoma City is another story) I'M WORKING TO PROTECT THE CONSTITUTION AND BILL OF RIGHTS, WITHDRAW U.S. FORCES FROM IRAQ, REVEAL THE TRUTH ABOUT SEPTEMBER 11, 2001  http://www.gaianxaos.com/SpecialReports.htm AND MANY OTHER ISSUES OF THE KIND YOU MIGHT FIND POSTED HERE ON INDEPENDENT MEDIA CENTER. (use the terms "9/11", "voting machines", or "imperialism" on this site's search engine for just a few examples.)

"3. Genocidal Militarist?? Don't think so fool. I joined the military as a means of getting money for college, as my parents weren't rich. Please don't pretend to know me."

--AND IS THAT WHY YOUR EMAIL is "devilmarine"? LIKE SOME 13-YEAR-OLD HIGH SCHOOL DYLAN KLEBOLD WANNABE. YOU STUPID, FASCIST, COMPLICIT COLLABORATOR WITH BLINDERS. YOU CONTINUE TO WORSHIP AT THE ALTAR OF GENOCIDAL MILITARISM, WHICH WAS APPARENTLY (assuming you ever really were in the military for purposes of TrollSpeak) GOOD FOR A COLLEGE EDUCATION THAT TAUGHT YOU ABSOLUTELY NADA, NOTHING. KEEP WORSHIPING GENOCIDAL MILITARISM, O YE OF MICROSCOPIC MINDS (translation: PEA BRAIN).

"4. Conservatives might be traitors to the constitution, but democrats are no better. You've already ruled out Libertarians as well, so what boat does that leave you in, Socialist boy?"

--GET RID OF THE LABELS. THE POWER ELITES DON'T GIVE A FUCK WHAT YOU CALL YOURSELF, ME, OR ANYONE ELSE. LIBERTARIANS ARE JUST AS PATHETIC SACKS OF SHITS AS THE REST. PROTECT AND TAKE BACK YOUR CONSTITUTION AND BILL OF RIGHTS.

"5. Islam might be the fastest growing religion on the planet. I don't think anyone really cares about that. As long as they don't get into the habit of forced conversion, which the Taliban is so fond of. I see no response to the horrid activities of muslim extremists."

--YOU "don't think anyone really cares"?!? WELL GET USED TO IT YOU **IGNORANT** SACK OF SHIT BECAUSE THE POPULATION OF IRAQ IS 60% SHI'ITE. YOU CAN THANK THE PNAC GENIUSES FOR SPENDING YOUR TAX DOLLARS AND BROTHERS/SISTERS LIFE BLOOD ON A HARE-BRANED SCHEME TO CREATE A CENTRAL BASE OF OIL OPERATIONS IN A COUNTRY WITH 60% SHI'ITE POPULATION. BUT FOLLOW THE OIL, NOT COMMON SENSE, RIGHT? THE REBEL ARMY IN IRAQ IS GAINING STRENGTH, SUPPORTERS AND RESOLVE WITH EACH PASSING DAY. EVERY IRAQI, ARAB, AND MUSLIM IN ALL OF THE MIDDLE EAST WANTS THE UNITED STATES TROOPS OUT, NOW. BUT YOU'RE TOO **IGNORANT** IN YOUR LIBERTARIAN "watch whatever news you want" FANTASY ZONE TO UNDERSTAND WHAT IN THE FUCK IS REALLY GOING ON. NEVER MIND, IT IS GOING TO GET A LOT WORSE FOR ALL OF YOU GENOCIDAL MILITARY ASSCLOWNS. SOONER, NOT LATER.

"6. No, we don't have to "allow muslims to exist freely, everywhere". If these extremists can't conduct themselves in a way that represents something like humanity, then bring them what they've brought others. Death. The Taliban and Al-Qaeda want to bring death and misery to their FELLOW MUSLIMS that don't agree with their leadership, then they deserve the same."

--TRY TELLING THAT TO THE SHI'ITES AND SUNNIS IN IRAQ. THEY HAVE ALREADY REJECTED THE U.S. MILITARY OCCUPATION AND GOVERNING BODY. SPAIN IS PRESENTING A PLAN TO REMOVE UNITED STATES TROOPS. NEW ARMOR IS RIGHT NOW BEING SHIPPED TO IRAQ AS FAST AS THEY CAN GET IT THERE: "mission accomplished" INDEED. CAMP X-RAY AND YOUR BUDDIES IN BOSTON  http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/040423/dcf054_1.html WHO SAY "Let's kill all Muslims." ARE REALLY HELPING TO BUILD BRIDGES OF COMPASSION AND UNDERSTANDING, TOO.

"In closing, I am neither conservative or liberal. I trod the road down the middle, sometimes drifting right, sometimes drifting left."

--CLAIMING TO GET RID OF THE LABELS, BUT DOING NOTHING IN THE END.

"You sir are an asshole ignoramus. Posting your alarmist, hand wringing B.S. in the safety of your anonymity. It's obvious you can't conduct an adult debate without resorting to hysterics. You post everything thats wrong with america, but OFFER NO SOLUTIONS DO YOU!!!??????"

--DON'T "sir" ME, I'M A WORKING MAN. AND "please don't pretend to know me". SOLUTION - AS OFFERED MANY TIMES ABOVE - IS TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR GENOCIDAL CORPORATE-OWNED MILITARY GOVERNMENT. TAKE IT BACK FROM THEM. GET OFF YOUR FAT ASS. PROTECT AND UPHOLD OUR CONSTITUTION AND BILL OF RIGHTS, WHICH IS BEING TRASHED BY USA PATRIOT. BE A REAL PATRIOT.

"Grow up little boy, and come back when you have."

--FUCK YOU, TRAITOR PANTY-WAIST CHICKENSHIT TROLL. HOMELAND SECURITY WILL DUST UP YOUR KIND QUITE SOON.

you all have so much to say about things you know nothing about if our parents and granparents thought the way you do about the milatery then we would all be blonde blue eyed and white no gays no blacks one religion that is the way he wanted it and you know who i am talking about so when you call someone in uniform a baby killer or dumb jock remember he or she gave you that right

I made a big mistake.

I shouldn't have signed up for the Army Rangers, and trashed my chances for the All-Pro American dream which was offered to me on a multi-million dollar platter.

I was trying to be some kind of hero or martyr, and in the end all I did was get myself cocked.

it was a complete waste of my life and talent. I was still young and had much to accomplish on this planet.

the military will never solve anything, let alone the problems of Afghanistan or Iraq.

TO EVERYONE READING THIS:

don't join the military.

it isn't worth the ultimate sacrifice (especially not if you're already poor and desperate), and our current government is run by a cabal of corporate executive traitors.

today's U.S. government, which sent us to illegally invade Afghanistan, is completely destroying all that is left of America's freedom, liberties and justice in the name of corporate greed and profit (I should know: I rode my bike to football practice), and at the expense of thousands of innocent civilian lives.

We'll never "catch" Osama bin Laden, because he is a creation of the CIA so that our government can have an eternal, shadowy "enemy" to pursue, and help "justify" invading other countries.

The cause I thought I was fighting for, was a lie.

Because I rejected my football career, I died for nothing.

My message to you:

don't die for nothing.

don't join the military.

these rightwing nutters would have exhausted themselves with their driveling bullshit and gone on to
other things...like get a fucking LIFE! This is too much! It's funny!

 http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/04/286915.shtml#118273

I'm kind of tired of hearing about these. John Kerry was in Vietnam 4 MONTHS!!. This in no way is meant to disparage anyone who received a Purple Heart; I have two uncles who received them. The fact of the matter is, if you are in combat and get punched in the face and get a nosebleed, you will get a Purple Heart. The issue isn't his service, the issue is his coming back and lying his ass off about the atrocities he supposedly witness(Based on his own testimony before Congress). If he actually saw this stuff then he deserved a court martial for gross dereliction of duty as an officer since he never filed a single official report or brought a single charge against anyone.

Second, to the idiot who posted as Pat Tillman who wrote:

"The military will never solve anything."

Are you that ignorant? Six million Jews would disagree with you if they weren't dead. Twenty plus million Russians would disagree if Stalin hadn't had a bad day and had them killed. Tens of thousands of Cambodians wish the military had solved something.

The problem with liberals is, that while accusing George Bush of having no shades of grey is that you have no black and white. There is absolute evil in this world and the only way to stop it is to kill first before it kills you. The days of reactionism ended Sept. 11(actually they ended a hell of a lot sooner, we just didn't know it).

This man was NOT just some dumb, killer!
He was an American soldier out in Afganistan fighting so YOU don't have to!
He was fighting so that YOU won't get hit by some powerful weapon and wished that there was someone there to protect you!
He was fighting so that we don't give those terrorists a free chance to take a cheap shot at our country!
I support all out troops in Afganistan and Iraq right now

so now this about abortion. i still challenge all you knuckle heads to offer me proof that al-queda was responsible for 9/11. or for that fact showing osama or al-queada taking credit for it.

this conversation was supposed to about differing opinions as to the necessity of posting a corporate article under the reposted headline "another dumb jock killed in afghanistan" by an unknown individual. how dare you associate my posting on this site with a pro-choice stance. you need to check yourself.

as for the anonymous reposter of person "heading off to baghdad" i will comment on one of the many egreious lies contained in their list:

"Girls are allowed to attend school for the first time ever in Iraq."
FUCKING LIE

i'm sure UNICEF, since it is related to the UN is completely misinformed when it states:

Education

Primary school enrolment ratio
1997-2000*
(gross) male 111

(gross) female 91

(net) male 100

(net) female 86

Net primary school
attendance % (1992-2002*)
male
83

female
70

Secondary school enrolment ratio 1997-2000* (gross)
male
47

female
29

the defintions of the above numbers are as follows:

Gross primary or secondary school enrolment ratio - The number of children enrolled in a level (primary or secondary), regardless of age, divided by the population of the age group that officially corresponds to the same level.

Net primary school enrolment ratio - The number of children enrolled in primary school who belong to the age group that officially corresponds to primary schooling, divided by the total population of the same age group.

Net primary school attendance - Percentage of children in the age group that officially corresponds to primary schooling who attend primary school. These data come from national household surveys.

Primary school entrants reaching grade five - Percentage of the children entering the first grade of primary school who eventually reach grade five.

IT IS A FUCKING LIE THAT GIRLS WERE NOT ALLOWED TO ATTEND SCHOOL UNDER SADDAM HUSSEIN. YOU ARE A PERPETUATING A LIE. CHECK YOUR FACTS NEXT TIME.

 http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/iraq_statistics.html

go and look it up for yourself you lying ....

heres some more you lying no good .... YOU PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE THE LIES POSTED BY ANONYMOUS HAD BETTER READ THIS

i'll summarize for you...

"The Iraqi Provisional Constitution (drafted in 1970) formally guaranteed equal rights to women and other laws specifically ensured their right to vote, attend school, run for political office, and own property."

and

"Although middle and upper class Iraqi women had been attending university since the 1920s, rural women and girls were largely uneducated until this time."

you know what i think? i think that troop in baghdad was LIED to by his own superiors, in much the same way we have all been lied to. open your goddamned eyes...

and i am still waiting answers for:

1. prove of al-queda / osama connection to 9/11
2. prove that the u.s. military is responsible for my constitutionally guaranteed rights. (other than if there were no military the muslims would come and slaughter my family. thanks, but that is fucking bullshit.)

READ IT, if you can, AND WEEP.

Human Rights Watch Briefing Paper
Background on Women's Status in Iraq Prior to the Fall of the Saddam Hussein Government
November, 2003

Women's Status in Iraq Prior to the 1991 Gulf War

Women's Status in the Post-Gulf War Years

Iraq: Insecurity Driving Women Indoors
Press Release, July 16, 2003

Climate of Fear: Sexual Violence and abduction of Women and girls in Baghdad
Report, July 2003


Historically, Iraqi women and girls have enjoyed relatively more rights than many of their counterparts in the Middle East. The Iraqi Provisional Constitution (drafted in 1970) formally guaranteed equal rights to women and other laws specifically ensured their right to vote, attend school, run for political office, and own property. Yet, since the 1991 Gulf War, the position of women within Iraqi society has deteriorated rapidly. Women and girls were disproportionately affected by the economic consequences of the U.N. sanctions, and lacked access to food, health care, and education. These effects were compounded by changes in the law that restricted women's mobility and access to the formal sector in an effort to ensure jobs to men and appease conservative religious and tribal groups.

Women's Status in Iraq Prior to the 1991 Gulf War
After seizing power in 1968, the secular Ba'ath party embarked on a program to consolidate its authority and to achieve rapid economic growth despite labor shortages.1 Women's participation was integral to the attainment of both of these goals, and the government promulgated laws specifically aimed at improving the status of women in the public and-to a more limited extent-the private spheres.2 The status of Iraqi women has thus been directly linked to the government's over-arching political and economic policies.

Until the 1990s, Iraqi women played an active role in the political and economic development of Iraq. A robust civil society had existed prior to the coup d'etat in 1968, including a number of women's organizations.3 The Ba'ath Party dismantled most of these civil society groups after its seizure of power. Shortly thereafter it established the General Federation of Iraqi Women (GFIW).4 The GFIW grew to play a significant role in implementing state policy, primarily through its role in running more than 250 rural and urban community centers offering job-training, educational, and other social programs for women and acting as a channel for communication of state propaganda.5 Female officers within the GFIW also played a role in the implementation of legal reforms advancing women's status under the law and in lobbying for changes to the personal status code.6 On the other hand, some Iraqi women have argued that as a political arm of the Ba'ath party, the GFIW was destructive to women's issues in Iraq and "did not reflect or represent the struggle of millions of oppressed Iraqi women."7

The primary legal underpinning of women's equality is contained in the Iraqi Provisional Constitution, which was drafted by the Ba'ath party in 1970. Article 19 declares all citizens equal before the law regardless of sex, blood, language, social origin, or religion. In January 1971, Iraq also ratified the International Covenants on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) and Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (ICESCR), which provide equal protection under international law to all.8

In order to further its program of economic development, the government passed a compulsory education law mandating that both sexes attend school through the primary level.9 Although middle and upper class Iraqi women had been attending university since the 1920s, rural women and girls were largely uneducated until this time. In December 1979, the government passed further legislation requiring the eradication of illiteracy.10 All illiterate persons between ages fifteen and forty-five were required to attend classes at local "literacy centers," many of which were run by the GFIW. Although many conservative sectors of Iraqi society refused to allow women in their communities to go to such centers (despite potential prosecution), the literacy gap between males and females narrowed.11

The Iraqi government also passed labor and employment laws to ensure that women were granted equal opportunities in the civil service sector, maternity benefits, and freedom from harassment in the workplace.12 Such laws had a direct impact on the number of women in the workforce.13 The fact that the government (as opposed to the private sector) was hiring women contributed to the breakdown of the traditional reluctance to allow women to work outside the home.14 The Iraqi Bureau of Statistics reported that in 1976, women constituted approximately 38.5 percent of those in the education profession, 31 percent of the medical profession, 25 percent of lab technicians, 15 percent of accountants and 15 percent of civil servants.15 During the Iran-Iraq war (1980-88), women assumed greater roles in the workforce in general and the civil service in particular, reflecting the shortage of working age men. Until the 1990s, the number of women working outside the home continued to grow.

While most advances in women's status occurred in the political and economic spheres, the government also made modest changes to the personal status laws in 1978.16 For example, divorced mothers were granted custody of their children until the age of ten (previously seven for boys and nine for girls) at which time, at the discretion of a state-employed judge, custody could be extended to the child's fifteenth birthday.17 The child could then choose with which parent to live. Changes were also made to the conditions under which a woman could seek divorce and regulations concerning polygynous marriages and inheritance.18 These reforms reflected the Ba'ath Party's attempt to modernize Iraqi society and supplant loyalty to extended families and tribal society with loyalty to the government and ruling party.19

Women attained the right to vote and run for office in 1980.20 In 1986, Iraq became one of the first countries to ratify the Convention on Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW). While this represented a positive step for Iraqi women, the reservations entered in regard to articles 2(f), 2(g), 9, and 16 undermined the guarantees of equality at the heart of the convention. Namely, these reservations sought to justify continued application of national laws that discriminate on the basis of sex, especially those in relation to women's and girls' rights within the familial structure, on the grounds that they are largely dictated by Islamic law.21 As with other countries in the region, most advancement in the status of Iraqi women has thus occurred within the public sphere.

Women's Status in the Post-Gulf War Years
In the years following the 1991 Gulf War, many of the positive steps that had been taken to advance women's and girls' status in Iraqi society were reversed due to a combination of legal, economic, and political factors.22 The most significant political factor was Saddam Hussein's decision to embrace Islamic and tribal traditions as a political tool in order to consolidate power. In addition, the U.N. sanctions imposed after the war have had a disproportionate impact on women and children (especially girls).23 For example, the gender gap in school enrollment (and subsequently female illiteracy) increased dramatically due to families' financial inability to send their children to school. When faced with limited resources, many families chose to keep their girl children at home.24 According to the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO), as a result of the national literacy campaign, as of 1987 approximately 75 percent of Iraqi women were literate; however, by year-end 2000, Iraq had the lowest regional adult literacy levels, with the percentage of literate women at less than 25 percent.25

Women and girls have also suffered from increasing restrictions on their freedom of mobility and protections under the law.26 In collusion with conservative religious groups and tribal leaders, the government issued numerous decrees and introduced legislation negatively impacting women's legal status in the labor code, criminal justice system, and personal status laws.27 In 2001, the U.N. Special Rapporteur for Violence against Women reported that since the passage of the reforms in 1991, an estimated 4,000 women and girls had been victims of "honor killings."28 In recent years, both the Kurdistan Democratic Party (KDP) and the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (PUK) administrations in northern Iraq issued decrees suspending laws allowing for mitigation of sentences in honor crimes, but the degree to which the suspension has been implemented is unknown.29

Furthermore, as the economy constricted, in an effort to ensure employment for men the government pushed women out of the labor force and into more traditional roles in the home. In 1998, the government reportedly dismissed all females working as secretaries in governmental agencies.30 In June 2000, it also reportedly enacted a law requiring all state ministries to put restrictions on women working outside the home.31 Women's freedom to travel abroad was also legally restricted and formerly co-educational high schools were required by law to provide single-sex education only, further reflecting the reversion to religious and tribal traditions.32 As a result of these combined forces, by the last years of Saddam Hussein's government the majority of women and girls had been relegated to traditional roles within the home.

For information on the current situation in Iraq and issues related to women, see the Human Rights Watch report "Climate of Fear: Sexual Violence and Abduction of Women and Girls in Baghdad," (July 2003) available at  link to hrw.org.

""The military will never solve anything." Are you that ignorant? Six million Jews would disagree with you if they weren't dead. Twenty plus million Russians would disagree if Stalin hadn't had a bad day and had them killed. Tens of thousands of Cambodians wish the military had solved something."

-CAMBODIA? you have Nixon and Kissinger to thank.

Six million Jews, you forgot the millions of non-Jews who also perished under Hitler's militarized regime.

even though the Soviet Union eventually fell - NOT BECAUSE of military invasion, either - it was decades *AFTER* Josef Stalin had himself died. His own absolute military dictatorial power allowed him to massacre 20 million.

the military never solves anything. period.

it only creates more in the cycle of death and destruction.

is this pat tillman shit?

I didn't forget the non-Jews Hitler killed, I was making a point. The point being that MILITARY ACTION stopped Hitler, thus the military solved something... or am I missing something. While we are on the subject military action could have solved the Hitler problem by standing up to him in the first place... instead we got whiny liberal appeasement that created "peace for our time".

Actually Cambodia was caused by Pol Pot. A fascist communist regime that could have been stopped... again by military intervention.

You are right the Soviet Union didn't fall by military invasion. It fell because Ronald Reagan had the balls to confront evil and build our military so big and powerful the soviet union collapsed upon itself trying to keep up with us. You see a planned economy can never compete with free enterprse. But again, though we didn't have to use it, thank God, our military presence solved soviet communism.

You seem to think that if everyone just got rid of their armies we could all just join hands around the campfire singing "Kumbaya" and "Give Peace a Chance". Peace only comes through strength to defend oneself from tyranny. In this point in histroy, sometimes defending yourself means getting in the first shot.

Tillman died so that the bile spewing Limbaughtomized cowards on this site could have their odiotic say. In fact, if it wasn't for the fact that the Neo-Con fanatics are loosing in both Afghanistan and Iraq, and destroying the US military with their dellusional fantasies that looked oh so good on paper, we would probably have no hope of recovering anything resembling a democracy in this country. It is in fact the mounting failure of these events that gives us a chance. They are being taught a very hard lesson that world opinion is the most formidable force of all.

Since it has now been well established that US forces have conducted numerous instances of torture, paraded prisoners on television in deameaning ways, murdered thousands of innocent women and children without justification, held familiy members of Iraqis and Afghans hostage in efforts to extort them into turning themselves in, the long established "rules" that protect combatants and non-combatants are now rendered mute.

So the next time you see an execution of an American on TV, the next time you see a 'coalition' member tortured or their charred and dismembered body dragged through the streets, take pride war mongering armchair warrior cowards. It couldn't happen without your hatefull brand of cowardly ignorance. By ignoring and even cheering these tactitcs when they are employed upon the 'evildoers', you have paved the way for similar treatment of your fellow American.

Now, if the blathering traitors recently infecting this site could produce even a single testicle between them, this might not be the case. If even half of them had the wherewithall to follow in their "hero's" footsteps, the military aspect of these conflicts may look a bit brighter for them. The wars are already lost of course, because a similar brand of ignorance has already alienated the populations of these areas. If these mental defects could even put together a pro-war rally that wasn't completely idiotic and miniscule, that would at least demonstrate that they have the courage to back the lies that they so happily gobble up.

Instead, the best that they can offer is to screech their odiotic stupidity here, an call themselves brave 'good doers'. You have let down your country, you have let down the troops, and you have put the future of our security in grave danger. I am not surprised that you lack the ability to recognise this fact, as you appear incapable of generating a single thought that someone else did not generate for you.

I like it here. This is my home. I have payed my taxes, served my time in the military, and participated in my community. I am ashamed of many aspects of US history, and with the continuing propagation of US sponsored terrorist efforts. The fascist loving flag-wrapping disruptors of this site and throughout our country are only dead weight and traitors to the concept of democracy.

Perhaps it is you that should consider relocation. You know that your ship is sinking fast, that i why you bring your tantrums here. It is you that are a clear threat to humanity and are parasites of this country. Fascism could not gain a foothold here without enthusiastic supporters like yourselves. You are the true dregs of our society. It is you that take more than your share. You are of little value to our democracy, and you should be the ones considering leaving. I will stick around to assist your departure and to clean up the mess you have made.

The author who calls himself "Pat Tillman" is not funny at all. Not even close. Pat Tillman was a driven individual who saw the big picture and what he could contribute to it. He didn't need a new career, he didn't need the headaches involved with boot camp, Ranger School, and a deployment into an unfriendly war zone, but he saw the big picture and knew that if he (along with many other brave ones)didn't make that sacrifice then the country and those living here (including the unpatriotic haters) would pay a price.

And you cannot intelligently state that he (or any servicemember) did not willingly give his life, or was duped into going to war. Everyone who joins the Armed Forces takes an oath before they ever put on a uniform. At that time they are told they may have to kill or be killed in defense of the country. I took the oath myself nine years ago before donning the eagle, globe, and anchor.

The country's admiration of Mr. Tillman is reflective of our feelings towards all of the heroes serving.

If anyone thinks that the lack of terrorist attacks on our homeland is just a coincidence and has nothing to do with our "aggressiveness" and "warmongering" then they really need a reality check. PTBD - PUT THE BONG DOWN, let the smoke clear, and allow the brain some much needed fresh air.

yak wrote:

"(and i guess your real name is Thomas? and what, mine isn't yak?)" - My real name IS Thomas. I'll accept yours as Yak, for now.

"unfortunately, i dont have the time to combat every one of your assertions regarding how we are free in this country thanks to the military." - So, who then do we need to thank for our freedom? We fought the British for our independence. With guns. We liberated Europe from German aggression - twice - with guns. The military is a very important COMPONENT in our continuing freedom, because our enemies have to think twice before they act. At least when our military is used properly.

"i will point out for you the fact that "foreign countries" is plural, as in more than one, and to imply that G STARS meant to imply every country in the world is so utterly ridiculous i dont even need to address it." - Ah, I got that. But you obviously didn't understand my point, which wasn't that STARS was implying our desire to subgigate ALL countries to our will, but rather he used the term as a persuasive device in order to make a point he couldn't make based on the facts alone.

"second, you state that "Here's how: Al Queda (that "mythical" organization) wants to kill you because you're American. If 9/11 didn't teach you anything, it should have at least taught you that." this is your proof? that al-queda wants to kill me? hello, mcfly yourself. listen very very hard my friend: I WOULD LIKE YOU TO POINT OUT, SHOW, OR OTHERWISE LIST YOUR EVIDENCE THAT AL-QUEDA IS RESPONSIBLE FOR 9/11. do not laugh. i seriously challenge you to present ANY evidence that al-queda and/or Osama Bin Laden were responsible. once you do this we can continue the discussion. The only evidence to date i ave been able to find consists of: mohammed atta's passport found on the ground blocks away from the collapsed buildings, and video of bin laden stating that america got what it deserved and attacks will continue. if you could point out a release where Bin Laden TOOK CREDIT FOR 9/11 i would sincerely thank you as i have been researching this for a while and have been unable to find any conclusive evidence that al-queda and bin laden were responsible.... and evidence is not muslims hate americans and want to kill them. evidence is a passenger list, DNA, a black box, a bin laden transcript, or something similar." - You're welcome.

I left your entire post intact to make my point. You can rant and rave all you want about a lack of "evidence", thinking the more invective you lay out, the more valid your point. But, you obviously didn't look very far. I did ONE SEARCH on Google with the keywords "9/11 al queda evidence". ONE SEARCH. I clicked on the FIRST LINK IN THE LIST. Here it is:

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11,_2001_Terrorist_Attack

You can read the whole thing yourself. Go down about 1/2 of the way to the "Responsibility" section. Read through "Recent statements and revelations" and "Earlier revelations". The evidence is spelled out.

Here's a pertinent sampling (it's a long article, so I won't clog the bandwidth with it here):

"Additional information about the planning and execution of the attacks by Al-Qaida came to light following the capture of two of its members - Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and Ramzi Binalshibh - in separate raids in 2003 and 2002, and an exclusive interview with al Jazeera journalist Yosro Fauda in September 2002.

"Amongst the things that were said to be revealed in these interogations was that Khalid Mohammed was the instigator and prime organizer of the attacks. The first hijack plan that Mohammed presented to the leadership of Al-Qaida called for several airplanes on both east and west coasts to be hijacked and driven into targets. Mohammed's plan came from an earlier foiled terrorist plot called Operation Bojinka, which called for multiple airliners to be hijacked.

"Osama bin Laden was said to have been aware of these plans, and used his authority to gradually scale them down to an operation with four planes."

[snip]

"After the U.S. attack removed the Taliban from power in many parts of Afghanistan, a videotape was discovered abandoned in Kabul, the Afghan capital, which showed bin Laden discussing the attacks in which he claims foreknowledge of the attacks."

There's more. Go to the site and read it. Some is, of course, statements purportedly made by Osama, others reports from field officers. Yet these two items seem to be more of a "hard evidence" thing than just statements by intelligence agents.

"evidence is a passenger list, DNA, a black box, a bin laden transcript, or something similar." - Yep, we got the passenger lists, we know the hijackers were from Saudia Arabia (Osama's home country). And we know some of them were Al Queda operatives from previous intelligence. DNA? If you can find it and scrape it off the debris, be my guest. I'll supply the rubber gloves. A Black Box? We found the one from the Pennsylvania plane, and we have recordings of the hijackers, but they pretty much shut down communications after they took over. Bin Laden Transcript? The videotape is better, don't you think?

Me:
"And, sadly for your point, re-inlistment is at an all-time high."

Yak:
"exactly why intelligent and concerned people are upset." - So, you're saying the military is made up of dumb, unconcerned people? Pretty bold.

Tillman's GPA was mentioned here in another post. He's no dummy. And he enlisted precisely BECAUSE he was concerned. These men and women who are defending your right to say stupid things know alot more about what's going on and what's at stake than you are obviously willing to give them credit for.

Me:
"These young men and women KNOW what they're doing, and they want to finish the job;"

Yak:
"they do not. they do not. they do not. they believe/think they are going overseas to defend this country from terrorism. they are not. they are going overseas to make the world safe for american capitalism. there is a fundamental difference." - IF what you say is true. But it's not. It sounds like you have never talked to a military man or woman. I've known hundreds in my short life. They are real people, and they know exactly what's at stake and why they do what they do. This whole "american capitalism" thing reeks of Marxist smut. It says more about you than you probably want it to.

"this statement [about Kerry's Purple Hearts] simply and absolutely proves you are not interested in a dialouge. what? you are able to defend every soldier fighting for this country EXCEPT when they are a democratic presidential cadidate? what about the two sisters who have not gone back to iraq after the death of their sister? are they cowards? if i called them cowards you would call me a liberal pussy commie. well...?" - You pick the name, Yak.

I have no problem with Kerry as a soldier defending his fellow servicemen. MY problem with the loser comes when he bolts IMMEDIATELY AFTER he gets his third PH. My problem comes when he THEN starts talking down his country and his fellow servicemen. When he lies about this ridiculous medal nonesense; when he says he and his fellow soldiers committed war atrocities (he'd better be careful - there's no statute of limitations on war atrocities), with NO PROOF.

He's a Poser, and he's using his service in Vietnam as a feint to prop up his patriotism. THAT'S why I don't like the guy.

And about the two sisters. Great! They can stay home: it's their right. I have no problem with that. Just don't drag these two girls out as examples of our military men and women when the truth lies elsewhere.

"to go back to your contention that recruitment is at an all time high:
think about this: THIS IS WHY PEOPLE ARE UPSET ABOUT THE HERO WORSHIP OF TILLMAN. people are upset because it focuses on his all-american stature, his football-playing good old guy attitude. this encourage our young people to idolize people like tillman, something tillman himself would probably not want. this is why some people are upset with the media coverage of his death. same with the coffins being shown. most from the right want them shown out of honor. the left wants them shown out of honesty. yet still the government will not allow it. think about it." - I didn't say "recruitment" was at an all-time high; I said "re-inlistment" was at an all-time high. Look it up. Two VERY DIFFERENT things! Recruits don't yet know what they're in for. Re-inlistees do, yet they're eager to go back. Why, Yak? Because, as you contend, they're stupid? Tell it to their faces.

I will agree with you that Tillman didn't want publicity over his enlistment and his service. He didn't want to be made out a hero, because everyone in uniform is a hero, and he didn't want any special attention. He just felt like America gave him some great things, and he wanted to give something back. He knew he might not come home. He was willing to take that risk.

As for the coffins thing: too bad some of the photos were actually of the Columbia Space Shuttle crew, and not of American soldiers. Ooops.

"please explain to me how posting me real name is courageous Thomas? how many Thomas's are there in this country? that is your idea of courage?" - Because you are willing to attach your ideas and your words to yourself. When you write through a pseudonym, you are telling me you don't have the courage of your convictions. It's as simple as that.

"I am waiting for answers to my questions."

I wouldn't want you to wait too long; your smoothie might melt.

You are exactly the kind of human excrement that I am referring to. You sir, claimed to have taken an oath. In that oath you swore to protect the Constitution of the United States from all enemies from without and within. Your support for a band of pirates that are clearly acting outside of our constitution, classifies you as a traitor. Your word is obviously of no value whatsoever. You are only a flag draping sniveling terrorist sympathizer, and you would have made an outstanding Nazi, if in fact you are not one already. If you like fascism, move to Israel.

.

translation of your name (you forgot "WHITE"):

FASCIST.

This past couple of days has been very enlightening, very illuminating.

It rather boggles my mind that people really believe that 1. Al Queda is a media myth, 2. Osama is not responsible for 9/11, 3. there are barbed-wire pens in America for people who speak against the governmemt, 4. that we don't have free speech in America, 5. that Bush is actually a Nazi, not just the typical "he acts like a Nazi" BS, 6. That women in Iraq were better off under Saddam, 7. that the American military is made up of stupid people, 8. that wars have nothing to do with freedom....

Thanks to the loaf-head who posted the original Tillman piece. You have shone the burning spotlight of truth on your pathetic little Hate Party. We now know you really exist, that you ARE blithering idiots, and that nothing governs your existence more that your hatred for George Bush (nice bong shot - that's your bong you supered in there, right? You obviously had taken a hit before you opened Photoshop). And your hatred for America.

Much like Janet Jackson's pathetic, old boob, you have just suffered through a self-inflicted Intelligence Malfunction.

I commend you to your muse: may he wallow in your ignorance.

"So, who then do we need to thank for our freedom? We fought the British for our independence. With guns. We liberated Europe from German aggression - twice - with guns. The military is a very important COMPONENT in our continuing freedom, because our enemies have to think twice before they act. At least when our military is used properly."

--THE U.S. MILITARY IS TO PROTECT THE UNITED STATES BORDERS AND GOVERNMENT. NOTHING MORE. IS THE U.S. MILITARY BEING USED "properly" IN IRAQ OR AFGHANISTAN? LOL. YOU ARE SO FAR BEYOND A PARODY OR JOKE THAT YOU'RE INCAPABLE OF EVEN GETTING ONTO THE STAGE TO BE LAUGHED OFF OF IT.

"Ah, I got that. But you obviously didn't understand my point, which wasn't that STARS was implying our desire to subgigate [sic] ALL countries to our will, but rather he used the term as a persuasive device in order to make a point he couldn't make based on the facts alone."

--WHATEVER THE FUCK YOU ARE TRYING TO ADDRESS HERE, YOU'VE MAGNIFICENTLY SUCCEEDED IN SHOWING WHAT A BRAINLESS DOLT YOU ARE.

"I left your entire post intact to make my point. You can rant and rave all you want about a lack of "evidence", thinking the more invective you lay out, the more valid your point. But, you obviously didn't look very far."

--THE WIKIPEDIA INFORMATION YOU CITE IS FROM A USER-MODIFIED DICTIONARY DATABASE. IT IS BY NO MEANS AUTHORITATIVE. ANYONE CAN GO TO THE WIKIPEDIA SITE THEMSELVES AND ALTER / MODIFY THE DICTIONARY ENTRIES TO THEIR OWN SATISFACTION.

THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT 'al-Qaeda' IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE 9-11 ATTACKS.

THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT 'al-Qaeda' IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SPANISH 3-11 ATTACKS.

THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT THERE WERE "19 HIJACKERS" ON THE 4 AIRPLANES THAT MORNING, NOR THAT ANY 'al-Qaeda' MEMBERS WERE ON THOSE AIRPLANES.

THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT A GROUP OF "TERRORISTS" USED BOXCUTTER KNIVES TO THREATEN PILOTS ON THOSE AIRPLANES. NO BOXCUTTER KNIVES WERE FOUND IN THE WRECKAGE.

THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT "cell phone calls" WERE MADE BY PASSENGERS FROM THE AIRPLANES (ONE STEWARDESS SUPPOSEDLY USED ONE OF THE AIRPLANES' "seat phones" TO CALL AUTHORITIES).

OSAMA BIN LADEN HAS NEVER SPECIFICALLY "claimed credit" FOR 9-11 IN ALL OF THE 'VIDEOS' OR 'TAPES', BUT HAS ONLY ENDORSED THE GOALS OF SUCH ATTACKS, AND MADE FURTHER VAGUE THREATS THAT 'al-Qaeda' MAY TRY SIMILAR ATTACKS IN THE FUTURE.

THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT OSAMA BIN LADEN IS IN AFGHANISTAN, OR PAKISTAN.

THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT OSAMA BIN LADEN HAS DIRECT CONTROL OVER 'al-Qaeda' (whatever that means).

"So, you're saying the military is made up of dumb, unconcerned people? Pretty bold."

--IT'S MADE UP OF BRAINWASHED PEOPLE. LIKE THE FREEPER LIMBAUGHTOMOIDS CURRENTLY HERE.

"Tillman's GPA was mentioned here in another post. He's no dummy. And he enlisted precisely BECAUSE he was concerned. These men and women who are defending your right to say stupid things know alot more about what's going on and what's at stake than you are obviously willing to give them credit for."

--WHAT'S GOING ON IS THAT U.S. TROOPS THEMSELVES KNOW THEY ARE FIGHTING FOR HALLIBURTON, BROWN & ROOT AND OIL SUPPLIES:

Augusta Chronicle Friday, July 11, 2003
 http://www.augustachronicle.com/stories/071203/met_021-6883.000.shtml

"We don't understand what's going on," said Sgt. Robert Curl, 44, of Cobbtown in Tatnall County. "We've been here long enough. We did our mission."

Soldiers say most of their work involves civilian contractor Kellogg Brown and Root, a subsidiary of Vice President Dick Cheney's former company, Halliburton Corp. The company has contracts to haul fuel, and 319th members are riding along as armed escorts.

"The main reason we're still here is to support Brown and Root," said Sgt. 1st Class David Uthe, 45, of Augusta.

"I have no problem with Kerry as a soldier defending his fellow servicemen. MY problem with the loser comes when he bolts IMMEDIATELY AFTER he gets his third PH. My problem comes when he THEN starts talking down his country and his fellow servicemen. When he lies about this ridiculous medal nonesense; when he says he and his fellow soldiers committed war atrocities (he'd better be careful - there's no statute of limitations on war atrocities), with NO PROOF."

--BUSH DESERTED THE NATIONAL GUARD DURING THE VIETNAM WAR.  http://www.awolbush.com/ PERIOD.

"And about the two sisters. Great! They can stay home: it's their right. I have no problem with that. Just don't drag these two girls out as examples of our military men and women when the truth lies elsewhere."

--SO WHAT THEY DID IS "not the truth"??

"I will agree with you that Tillman didn't want publicity over his enlistment and his service. He didn't want to be made out a hero, because everyone in uniform is a hero, and he didn't want any special attention. He just felt like America gave him some great things, and he wanted to give something back. He knew he might not come home. He was willing to take that risk."

--AND HE TOTALLY BLEW IT. DIED FOR ABSOLUTELY NOTHING BUT HIS TRAITOR CORPORATE GOVERNMENT'S GREED. MAYBE HE NEVER EVEN KNEW THE TRUTH, WHICH IS REALLY SOMETHING TO MOURN.

"Because you are willing to attach your ideas and your words to yourself. When you write through a pseudonym, you are telling me you don't have the courage of your convictions. It's as simple as that."

--IT'S AS SIMPLE AS: NO ONE ON HERE KNOWS ANYONE'S "authentic" NAME OR EMAIL ADDRESS. YOU CAN'T PROVE YOURS, "Thomas".

"You can read the whole thing yourself. Go down about 1/2 of the way to the "Responsibility" section. Read through "Recent statements and revelations" and "Earlier revelations". The evidence is spelled out."

well, i just did. and the comments aside that ANYONE can modify that wikipedia, i have to inform you that, regardless of your very temperate response (i thank you) there is absolutely no evidene contained in that link. PLEASE SPELL IT OUT FOR ME AS I AM ENTIRELY TOO DUMB TO SEE IT MYSELF.

in fact, your authoritative source states:
"Though no group has explicitly claimed responsibility, the Al-Qaida organization has praised the attacks and the organization's leaders have hinted of their involvement in the incidents. The U.S. government immediately launched a response, stating its intentions to go to war against those it deemed responsible."

hmmm.... no group explicitly... can you read?

also, khalids testimony is not proof.

please send real proof. i'm serious. i want to know exactly why you think they were responsible even after the site you sent provides absolutely no difinitive evidence. in fact it offers speculation as fact.

it also states:

"Since the attacks, Arab and Muslim newspapers have repeatedly denied the involvment of either Arabs or Muslims in the attacks of September 11, 2001. Rather these sources propose a variety of actors including, the United States Government, the Israeli Government, the Israeli intelligence agencies, and the Jews collectively."

well, there you have it, your definitive source of evidence is not that. it is speculative. please send evidence. ok?

none of your other comments deserve mention. though i did screw up with recruitment vs. reinlisement. BTW is recruitment at a high or what?

also, do you care to refute that anonymous LIED when they stated that this is the first time girls have been allowed to be educated in Iraq? do you? it is a lie. do you agree?

wikipedia! that will go down as probably the single most hilariuos attempt to provide proof i have ever seen. you quote a freaking online encyclopedia that anyone can post an articel to. you have seriously given me a good laugh. thanks Thomas. BTW, my name is Eric.

I would like to tell all of those that find our military offensive and what we do in the name of patrotism dispicable to GET OUT OF THIS COUNTRY. If it were not for those hundreds of thousands that have fought for many different things under the banner of the United States of America - successfully I might Add - you and I would not have the freedom and liberties that we have today.

Those that joined the military just so that you and i could pay for their education are not patriots and sure are not heros. They are those looking for an easy way out.

They want out now because they feel that fighting this war is illegal. What did they think when they joined? Did they feel that they may never have to pick up a weapon. They SWORE to do what was asked when they joined - so much for their word. It is not worth the sound coming out of their mouths.

Those that are there and are fighting are keeping the freedoms alive for us. If they dont do it - we will end up with terrorist and communist over her taking over. Do you want to have your wife walking around completly covered and no tv or radio to listen to escept what the leaders tell you you can hear.

Do you want to give up your fast cars? I dont think so - but you hide behind the truth when people post thing about our military that are so vicious and uncalled for. If you dont like it here - Move to Iraq. They would be glad to have you strap a bomb on your kids and blow someone up.

Why the Right Should Reject Bush
 http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/04/286391.shtml

Prescott Bush: Guilty of Treason
 http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/11/274620.shtml

"Bush - Nazi Dealings Continued Until 1951" - Federal Documents
By John Buchanan and Stacey Michael
from The New Hampshire Gazette Vol. 248, No. 3, November 7, 2003
 link to www.nhgazette.com

'Frauds-R-Us' The Bush Family Saga
 http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3308.htm

The Fascist Fraternity
 http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/02/280673.shtml

Bush connections to the Nazi's makes it to New York Times #1
 http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/02/280483.shtml

Repeating Pattern of Bushes and Nazis
 http://www.afrocubaweb.com/bushnazis.htm

Bu$h's Grandfather Directed Nazi Germany-Affiliated Bank
 http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1018-01.htm
 http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/10/273525.shtml
 link to story.news.yahoo.com
 http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/351131.html

Sen. Prescott Bush, R-Conn, attemps to 'disassociate himself' from Missouri Sen. Stuart Symington during a hearing on Capitol Hill in this Aug. 17, 1962 file photo. Government documents show that Bush, the grandfather of President George W. Bush, was one of seven directors of Union Banking Corp., seized by the federal government because of its ties to a German industrialist who helped bankroll Adolf Hitler's rise to power, government documents show. (AP Photo, File)

P-L-E-E-Z...P-L-E-E-Z...don't get involved...you don't wanna know...just crack open another bottle and
forget it...stay drunk instead...less headaches that way!

I will stay to make sure that blathering fascist loving traitors like Q1 are held accountable for their treasonous humanity hating idiocy. Not only was this latest round of adventurism illegal and immoral, but it is clearly becoming a dismal failure even by the fascist lovers own standards. The Fuhrer Bushco is paying the price for his wrecklessness and stupidity. He will be remembered as one of the most heinous failures of history.

No chance to even pull out a military success at this point, since the few remaining rabbid backers of these crimes don't even have the integrity to put their own safety in jeopardy. They can only type away the pre-programmed whining that they desperately swallow.

Tillman's death and the small part that it contributed to the mounting failure of these adventures, is the only thing that he was able to contribute to the hope of regaining democratic control in this country.

"we will end up with terrorist [sic] and communist [sic] over her [sic] taking over"

somebody pinch me:

is it the 21st Century yet?

Call to Conscience from Veterans to Active Duty Troops and Reservists
The following is a statement issued by veterans of the U.S. armed forces
which represents a variety of different political perspectives and experiences.
For more information:
www.calltoconscience.net

We are veterans of the United States armed forces. We stand with the majority of humanity, including millions in our own country, in opposition to the United States' all-out war on Iraq. We span many wars and eras, have many political views and we all agree that this war is wrong. Many of us believed serving in the military was our duty, and our job was to defend this country. Our experiences in the military caused us to question much of what we were taught. Now we see our REAL duty is to encourage you as members of the U.S. armed forces to find out what you are being sent to fight and die for and what the consequences of your actions will be for humanity. We call upon you, the active duty and reservists, to follow your conscience and do the right thing.

In the last Gulf War, as troops, we were ordered to murder from a safe distance. We destroyed much of Iraq from the air, killing hundreds of thousands, including civilians. We remember the road to Basra--the Highway of Death--where we were ordered to kill fleeing Iraqis. We bulldozed trenches, burying people alive. The use of depleted uranium weapons left the battlefields radioactive. Massive use of pesticides, experimental drugs, burning chemical weapons depots and oil fires combined to create a toxic cocktail affecting both the Iraqi people and Gulf War veterans today. One in four Gulf War veterans is disabled.

During the Vietnam War we were ordered to destroy Vietnam from the air and on the ground. At My Lai we massacred over 500 women, children and old men. This was not an aberration, it's how we fought the war. We used Agent Orange on the enemy and then experienced first hand its effects. We know what Post Traumatic Stress Disorder looks, feels and tastes like because the ghosts of over two million men, women and children still haunt our dreams. More of us took our own lives after returning home than died in battle.

If you choose to participate in the invasion of Iraq you will be part of an occupying army. Do you know what it is like to look into the eyes of a people that hate you to your core? You should think about what your "mission" really is. You are being sent to invade and occupy a people who, like you and me, are only trying to live their lives and raise their kids. They pose no threat to the United States even though they have a brutal dictator as their leader. Who is the U.S. to tell the Iraqi people how to run their country when many in the U.S. don't even believe their own President was legally elected?

Saddam is being vilified for gassing his own people and trying to develop weapons of mass destruction. However, when Saddam committed his worst crimes the U.S. was supporting him. This support included providing the means to produce chemical and biological weapons. Contrast this with the horrendous results of the U.S.-led economic sanctions. More than a million Iraqis, mainly children and infants, have died because of these sanctions. After having destroyed the entire infrastructure of their country including hospitals, electricity generators, and water treatment plants, the U.S. then, with the sanctions, stopped the import of goods, medicines, parts, and chemicals necessary to restore even the most basic necessities of life.

There is no honor in murder. This war is murder by another name. When, in an unjust war, an errant bomb dropped kills a mother and her child it is not "collateral damage," it is murder. When, in an unjust war, a child dies of dysentery because a bomb damaged a sewage treatment plant, it is not "destroying enemy infrastructure," it is murder. When, in an unjust war, a father dies of a heart attack because a bomb disrupted the phone lines so he could not call an ambulance, it is not "neutralizing command and control facilities," it is murder. When, in an unjust war, a thousand poor farmer conscripts die in a trench defending a town they have lived in their whole lives, it is not victory, it is murder.

There will be veterans leading protests against this war on Iraq and your participation in it. During the Vietnam War thousands in Vietnam and in the U.S. refused to follow orders. Many resisted and rebelled. Many became conscientious objectors and others went to prison rather than bear arms against the so-called enemy. During the last Gulf War many GIs resisted in various ways and for many different reasons. Many of us came out of these wars and joined with the anti-war movement. If the people of the world are ever to be free, there must come a time when being a citizen of the world takes precedence over being the soldier of a nation. Now is that time. When orders come to ship out, your response will profoundly impact the lives of millions of people in the Middle East and here at home. Your response will help set the course of our future. You will have choices all along the way. Your commanders want you to obey. We urge you to think. We urge you to make your choices based on your conscience. If you choose to resist, we will support you and stand with you because we have come to understand that our REAL duty is to the people of the world and to our common future.

SIGNERS, name, branch, years
Updated February 1, 2003

Terry Scott Adams, Army, 1964-1966
Kelly A. Allison, Navy, 1975-1979
Arvid Antonson, Air Force, 1942 - 1945
Ed Armas, Army, 1962-1965
Beatrice Arva, Army, 1985-1986, 1991-1993
Stephanie R. Atkinson, Army, 1984-1990
Paul L. Atwood, Marine Corps, 1965-1966
Niall Aslen, Royal Air Force, 1962-1986
Aram Attarian II, Air Force, 1965-1966
Henry Ayre, Coast Guard, 1942-1945
Collin Baber, Air Force, 1994-1998
Eric Bagai, Marine Corps, 1958-1961
Mack Bailey, Marine Corps, 1964-1966
David E Baker, Army, 1988-1991
Norman Balabanian, Army Air Corps, 1943-1946
Jack Barbour, Air Force, 1966-1970
Therese Bissen Bard, Army, 1951-1956
Thomas E. Barden, Army, 1968-1971
Michelle L. Bastian, Army, 1976-1979
Russell Bates, Navy, 1967-1970
George Batton, Marine Corps
Philip L. Bereano, USPHS, 1966-1970
Patricia Berry, Army, 1979-1988
Anton Black, Navy, 1977-1984
Dave Blalock, Army 1968-1971
Michael Blankschen, Army, 1972-1973
David Bledsoe, Air Force, 1987-1997
Louis Block, Army, 1966-1972
David Blodgett, Navy Reserve, 1943-1946
Yoon Bok-dong, Marine Corps, 1972-1973
Blase Bonpane, Marine Corps Reserve, 1948-1950
Charlie Bonner, Marine Corps, 1963-1972
Ronald L. Bontsema, Navy, 1943-1946 &
. . . Navy Reserve; 1946-1951
Fr. Bob Bossie, SCJ, Air Force, 1955-1959
Allan Bostelmann, Army, 1953-1955
Roy Bourgeois, Navy, 1962-1966
Norman Angus Bowen, Air Force, 1962-1967
Todd Boyle, Navy, 1970-1972
Horace R. Boykin, Marine Corps, 1979-1982
William P. Brandt, Army
Don Broadwell, Marine Corps, 1960-1966
Jerry Brooks, Air Force, 1956-1959
Geoffrey Brown, Army, 1969-1971
Roger W Brown, Marine Corps, 1957-1960
Peter Brush, Marine Corps, 1966-1968
Bill Burkett, Army, 1971-1999
Greg Busby, Air Force, 1980-2000
Paul Busby, Navy, 1956-1958
Larry Bush, Army, 1968-1971
Michael Busich Sr, Marine Corps, 1965-1970
Dan Butts, Army, 1960-1963
Scott R. Cade, Army, 1968-1971
Kevin A. Cahalan, Marines, 1967-1970
Rick Campos, Air Force, 1969-1971
James Michael Case, Navy Reserve, 2.5 yrs
William J. Cavanaugh, Army, 1951-1953 &
. . . Army Reserve, 1953-1982
Brian Chambers, Army, 1968-1971
Fredy Champagne, Army, 1965-1966
David Chelimer, Army, 1954-1956
Guy Chichester,USN 1952-1956
Gary A. Chipman, Army, 1970-1972
Elwood A. Chirrick, Navy, 1970-1972
Russ Christensen, Army, 1950-1954
Debra J. Clark, Army, 1976-1984
John Clarke, Air Force, 1951-1955
Rich Cohen, Army, 1963-1966
Rockney Compton, Army, 1967-1974
Howard R. Conant, Army, 1943-1946
David Connolly, Army, 1967-1971
Graham Conrad, Texas Army National Guard, 1995-2001
David Coombs, Navy, 1995-1999
Frank Corcoran, Marines Corps, 1968-1969
Willis Cornes, Army, 1966-1969
Roger D Corvin, Coast Guard, 1971-1975
Scott Cossette, Marine Corps, 1999-2001
James Coty, Army, 1959-1962
Dave Coull, Scotland, British Royal Air Force,1959-1964
Davey Coull, Scotland SNP, 1939-1945
Carrol B. Cox, Air Force, 1951-1955
Mark Cox, Marine Corps, 1989-1992
Charles Craig, Navy, 1963-1965
James M. Craven, Army, 1963-1966
Charlotte Critcher, Army, 1964-1971
Gary Phillip Crosby, Air Force, 1966-1970
Jack L. Cross, Air Force, 1942-1946
Milton Cunningham, Navy 1943-1945
Diane Curran, Army, 1969-1975
Gerald Curtis, Army 1953-1955 & Air Force 1955-1974
Robert Danko, Army Reserve, 1964-1970
Daniel N. Daugherty, Air Force, 1976-1980
Candice Davis, Navy, 1975-1979
Patrick Davis, Army, 1970-1971
William Davis, Navy, 1967-1971
Frank M. DePaul, Navy, 1958-1961
Ed Desmond, Navy, 1967-1971
Carl Dix, Army, 1968-1972
Burwell Dodd, Army, 1956-1958
Pete Doktor, Army, 1986-1989
Harold P. Donle, M.A., Marine Corps, 1966 to 1969
Barry Donnan, British Army, 1987-1993
Colleen Donovan-Batson. Army. 1978-1981
Thomas W. Donovan. Army. 1981-1992
Pat Driscoll, Navy, 1972-1975
John DuBois, Army, 1962-1965
Kenneth Dugan, Navy, 1984-1988
John Dunker, Army, 1964-1968
Fred Duperrault, Army Air Force, 1944-1946
Dan Duvelius. Army. 1968-1972
John P. Echavarria, Air Force, 1965-1969
Thomas Eck, Army, 1970-1972
Stephen R. Edwards, Army, 1963-1965
David Eldredge, Navy, 1953-1955
Jake Elkins, Marine Corps, 1965-1969
Daniel Ellsberg, Marine Corps, 1954-1957
Marcus Eriksen, Marine Corps, 1985-1991
Orlando Espino, Marine Corps
Edward A Everts, Air Force, 1941-1946
Joseph C. Farah, Army, 1960-1963
Bob Fehribach, Navy, 3 yrs
Mike Ferner, Navy, 1969-1973
Robert L. Fields, Army, 1966-1969
T. Patrick Foley, Navy, 1997-2000
David J. Fonda, Army, 1968-1971
Frank D. Ford, Air Force, 1950-1953 & 1961-1964
Joe Forgy, Army, 1944-1945
Dr. Ray Foster, Army, 1972-1975
Lou Fox, Army, 1965
Robert Freis, Navy, 1951-1955
Dean Friend, Marine Corps, 1981-1985
Joseph P. Furayter, Army, 1938-1940 & 1942-1945
John M. Gallagher, Air Force, 1967-1969
India Mahdi Gamboa, Air Force, 1985-1987
Carl Gant, Air Force, 1965-1986
Alfonoso Garcia, Army, 1970-1972
John Gear, Navy, 1978-1989
Jim Gibson, Army, 1968-1970
Stanley A. Goff, Army, 1970-1996
Ernest Goitein, Army, 1943-1945
Jay R. Goodman, Army, 1969-1970
Amy C. Goodrich, Army, 1997-2002
Darrell L. Gray, Army, 1948-1952
Jerry Greenberg
Todd Greenwood, Marine Corps, 1993-2001
Warren R. Greer, Navy Reserve, 1943-1945
R. C Guerrero, Marine Corps, 1964-1968
Edmonde Haddad, Air Force, 1951-1954
Steven Haines, Navy, 1963-1966
Linda J. Halford, Army Nurse Corps, 1968-1969
Kev Hall, Navy, 1973-1978
Robert Charles Hamilton III, Navy, 1986-1990
Jane D. Hamm, Marine Corps, 1943-1945
James Hamon, Air Force, 1954-1956
Robert Hanegan, Army, 1966-1969, &
. . . Air Force, 1981-1989
John Hanscom, Air Force, 1968-1990
Bob Hanson, Army Signal Corps, 1954-1956
James F. Harrington, Air Force, 1966-1967
David Harris, Air Force, 1965-1967
Mike Hastie, Army, 1969-1972
William T. Hathaway, Army, 1964-1967
Mike Hazard, Coast Guard, 1970-1976
Rev. Richard K. Heacock, Jr., Navy, 1944-1946
Glenn Helkenn, Army, 7 yrs
Dud Hendrick, Air Force, 1963-1967
Rodger Herbst, Army, 1969-1971
Andres Hernandez, Navy Reserve, 1979-1985
Steven A. Hessler, Air Force, 1973-1975
Douglas Higgs, Army, 1969-1971
Oliver Hirsch, Air Force, 1966-1968
John Hockman, Army, 1963-1965
Larry Holmes, Army, 1971-1972
Arthur M. Howard, Army Air Force, 1944-1947
Walter Hrozenchik, Navy, 1951-1955
James Patrick Hynes, British Army, 1940s
David M. Ionno, Army, 1970-1971
Aaron Isom, Marine Corps, 1994-2000
Leo Jacobs, Army, 1942-I946
Arthur James, Army, 1969-1970
Charles Jannuzi, Army Natl Guard, 1980-1988 &
. . . Army Reserve, 1988-1989
Allen L. Jasson, Australian Army, 1972-1974
Harold B. Jamison, Air Force, 20 years
Joseph A. Jennings III, Army, 1967-1970
Michael L. Job, Army, 1968-1970
Ralph Johansen, Army, 3 years
Eric Edward Johansson, Army, 1989-1992
Jewel R. Johnson, Navy, 1944-1946
Lance Johnson, Army, 1992-1996
James C. Johnston, Army, 1966-1968
Mike Jordan, Navy, 1966-1970
Laurie Josue, Air Force, 1986-1990
Eric Joyal, Army, 1989-1996
Olaniyan Kanissa'ai, Navy, 1972-1974
Thomas V. Karlin, Navy, 1956-1960
James Michael Kearney, Army, 1963-1965
Shelly R. Kekes, Army & OH National Guard, 1978-1982
Ray Kell, Army, 1945-1946
Gerald Keller, Army, 1977-1981
Keith Keller, Air Force, 1966-1972
Harold E. Kelly, Jr., Air Force, 1977-1984
George M. Kesselring, Air Force, 1942-1963
Gerald Kessler, Air Force, 1940-1945
Talat Khan, Air Force, 1986-1992
Peretz Kidron, Israeli Defense Force, 1954-1957
Richard L. Kilgore, Marine Corps, 1965-1967
Charles Kilmer, Army, 1967-1970
Harold LM Kimball, Army, 1990-2001
Robert A. Kinsey, Marine Corps, 1955-1961
Robert Kirkconnell, Air Force, 1967-1994
Ronald Knarr, Marines Corps, 1950-1952
Ron Kovic, Marine Corps, 1964-1968
Raymond Krauss, Marine Corps, 1969-1972
Robert Krezewinski, Navy, 1973-1977
Marty Kunz, Navy, 1970-1976
Krystal Kyer, Navy, 1993-1997
Mike Ladich, Marine Corps, 1943-1946
Edwin Lainhart, Navy, 1964-1968
Michael Lawton, Navy, 1962-1965
Bryan J. Ledoux, Army, 1976-1980 & 1988-1999
Kenneth M. Lee, Army, 1970-1973
Tim Lennon, Army, 1965-1968
Lew Levenson, Navy, 1948-1985
John L. Levy, Naval Reserve, 1942-1946
Brian Lewis, Air Force, 1982-1988
Dan Lewis, Navy Reserve, 1976-1995
Janet Marie Lewis, Army, 1989-1993
Neal Liden, Navy, 1965-1969
Janine Lockwood, Army, 1975-1978
Tom Lorenz, Air Force, 1967-1989
Charles Luce, Air Force, 1955-1959
Larry Lugar, Army, 1960-1966
Jerome M Lui, Army, 1944-1946
Keth Luke, Army, 1967-69
Fred W. MacArthur, Jr., Air Force, 1958-1983
Anthony Mallin, Navy 1943-1945 & Navy Reserve 1950-1951
Donald F. Maple, Navy, 1945-1946
George Mariscal, Army, 1968-1970
Rela Mazali, Israel Defense Force, 1966-1968
Mark McCleary, Navy, 1996-2002
O'Kelly McCluskey, Navy 1944-1946 & Air Force 1953-1957
Paul James McCoy, Navy, 1943-1945
Bruce McFarland, Navy, 1982-1986
C. Andrew McGuffin, Marine Corps, 1990-1994
Jim McWatt, Army, 1.5 yrs
Teresa Media, Navy, 1972-1977
Lloyd D. Mercer, Army, 1965-1968
Nathaniel I. Merwin, Army, 1993-2001
Dale Miller, National Guard, 1978-2003
Greg Miller, Army, 1966-1968
Norman S. Miller, Army, 1939-1946
Ronnie D. Miller, Army, 3 yrs
Will Miller, Army Security Agency, 1957-1962
Jack Minassian, Army, 1943-1945
Joshua Minchen, Army, 1997-2000
Rob Moitoza, Navy, 1965-1971
George Molina, Marine Corps, 1968-1970
James W. Moore, Air Force, 1950-1954
Michael Moore, Army, 1975-1979
Paul S. Moorhead, Navy, 1943-1946
Austin Moran, Navy, 1978-1985
Dale L. Morgan, Air Force, 1956-1960
David Rees Morgan, British Royal Air Force, 1948-1950
Catherine Morris, USMC, 1981-1985 &
. . . Army Natl Guard, 1989-1996
Rob Morris, Army, 1965-1969
Bryan Morrison, Air Force, 1994-1998
Paul Pat Morse, Air Force, 1965-1968
Steve Morse, Army, 1969-1971
Charles F. Munat, Army, Navy, 1979-1985
Joanne Murphy, Army Corps of Engineers, 2 years
John L. Murray, Army, 1971-1973
Germane Nachious, National Guard, 1994-2000
Greg Nees, Marine Corps, 1969-1971
John Niemi, Army, 1968-1970
Stan Nishimura, Army, 1964-1967
Jim Northrup, Marine Corps, 1961-1966
Tom Norwood, Army, 1952-1954
Robert Nuzum, Navy, 1950-1953
Jerome P. O'Mara, Army, 1966-1968
Greg A. O'Neill, Navy 1970-1974; Army 1979-1983
John L. Opperman, Navy, 1951-1970
T. E. Origer, Marine Corps, 1967-1969
Victor L. Ortiz, Army, 32 yrs
Ralph Osbon, 1969-1971
Clyde J. Oskins, Navy, 1944-1946
Doug Osmond, Army, 4 years
Wayne Evan Packwood, 1964-1968
John J. Pagoda, Air Force, 1965-1968 and 1985-1998
Todd A. Papasadero, Army, 1983-1989
John Pappademos, Naval Reserves, 1943-1946
Jeff Paterson, Marine Corps, 1986-1990
Norman L. Pearman, Army, 1950-1952
Richard Pedersen, Naval Reserve 1955-1959
Joe Peitte, Air Force, 1966-1969
Robert Perrotta, Army, 1966-1968
James Perry, Marine Corps, 1966-1968
Wilson M. Powell, Air Force, 1950-1954
Joseph M. Powers, Army, 1970-1971
William Arthur Raab, Navy Reserve, 1943-1946
Douglas Reeves, Army, 1990-1995
Dana Richter, 1967-1971
Jerry D. Riley, Army 1953-1955
Ervine M. Rips, Army, 1942-1946
Douglas Robbins, Air Force, 1952-1956
Don Roberts, Navy, 1978-1988
Marcia Furayter Roberts, Army, 1983-1991
Robert J Rogers, Air Force 1951-1953
Irwin A Rose, Navy, WWII
Robert L. Rosenberg, Army, 1944-1946
Samuel M. Ross, Merchant Seaman, 1941-1946
Randy Rowland, Army, 1967-1970
George Rubin, Army Air Force, 1943-1945
John Rueckert, Marine Corps, 1967-1969
Felix Rusnak, Army, 2 yrs
Rodney A Rylander, Air Force, 1962-1967
Steven E. Saelzler, Army, 1969-1971
Emile E. Sander IV, Marine Corps, 1980-2000
Kenna E. Sander, Army, 1982-1985
Lee Santa, Army, 1965-1968
Luis Manuel Santiago, Army, 6 yrs
William F. Santelmann, Jr., USMC, AF Reserves, 1954-1957
Patrick Santy, Air Force, 1966-1970
Dan Scaarlett, Army, 1943-1945
Paul Schaefer, Air Force, 1960-1964
Richard Hermann Schmidt, Navy, 1957-1960
Louis Anthony Schmittroth, Jr., Army, 1943-1956
Ken Schneider, Air Force, 1960-1964
Nikko Schoch, Army, 1968-1970
Steven R. "Kim" Scipes, Marine Corps, 1969-1973
Betty R. Scott, Navy, 1943-1945
Walter M. Scott, Army, 1960-1962
George Seaman, Army, 1971-1975
Burt Shachter, Air Force, 1944-1946
Richard Shaffer, Marine Corps, 1956-1959
Peter B. Shaw, Marine Corps, 1951-1954
Paul A. Sheehan, Air Force, 1988-1992
James Shockley, Army, 1975-1978
Larry Shute, Army, 1952-1954
Vern Simula, Army, 1954-1956
William O. Slayman, Navy, 1943-1946
Bob Slentz-Kesler, Army, 1990-1992
Bradley Smith, Navy, 1974-1980
Charles T. Smith, Army, 1969-1971
Douglas C. Smyth, Army Security Agency, 1961-1964
Tracey William Snyder, Navy, 1994-1998
Robert Sorrell, Navy, 1963-1967
John Steinbach, Coast Guard, 1965-1969
Robert Stephens, Marine Corps, 1966-1970
Joe Stern, Air Force, 1941-1946
John D. Stickle, Air Force, 1966-1970
Harold L. Stokes
Ted Stolze, Air Force, 1979-1980
William B. Strange Jr., Army, 1967-1970
Roy L. Streit, Navy, 1967-1968
Harold Strom, 25 years
Darnell S. Summers, Army, 1966-1970
Charles W. Sweet, Army, 1942-1946
Thomas Swift, Army, 1953-1955
Harold Taggart, Air Force, 1959-1964
Toby Tahja-Syrett, Army, 1992-1996
Bruce William Taylor, Navy, 10 years
d'andre Teeter, Navy, 1965-1966
Elliott Teters, Army, 1977-1980
Joe Thompson, Army, 1958-1961
Edward L. Tonningsen, Army, 1943-1946
Robert Travaline, Air Force, 1968-1972
Tom Trigg, Army, 1967-1975
Stanley Ray Turpin, Army, 1987-1992
Peggy Tuxen-Akers, Army Nurse Corps, 1969-1972
Joe Urgo, Air Force, 1966-1970
Tom Urgo, Army, 1968-1970
Michael Vaughan, Navy, 1976-1980
Frederick J. Vermillion, 1951 to 1955
Robert Vreeland, Army, 1967-1969
Gerald Waite, Army, 1967-1982
Paul J. Walker, Air Force, 1974-1978
Tom Ward, Air Force, 1959-1963
William H. Warrick III MD, Army Security Agency, 1968-1971
John Warriner, Air Force, 1964-1969
Eric Wasileski, Navy, 1993-1999
Brian G. Watko, Army, 1992-1996
Cora Tula Watters, Marine Corps, Korean Era
Carl Webb, Army, 1982-present
Kenneth Weeks, Marine Corps, 1960-1966
Chris Welch, Air Force, 1984-1988
Joel Wendland, Army, 1991-1993
Jerry West, Marine Corps, 1965-1970
Phillip Whitaker, Air Force, 1973-1981
Tim White, Air Force, 1966-1970
Roy W. White, Air Force, 1949-1953
Darrell Widner, Navy, 1977-1981
David Wiggins MD, Army, Gulf War
E. Duane Wilkerson, Air Force, 1969-1973
Sonny Williams, Army, 1966-1970
John P. Wirtz, Army, 1943-1946
Robert J. "Woody'' Woodruff, Army, 1966-1970
James Wojtkowski, Navy, 1969-1972
Mike Wong, Army, 1969-1975
Paul Wright, Army, 1983-1987
William Yates, Navy, 1943-1946
Leonard Zablow, Army, 1945-1946
Luis Zamora, Army, 1948-1971
Jeff Zamrzla, Marine Corps, 1974-1976
Eddie Zawaski, Navy, 1967-1968
Howard Zinn, Air Force, 1943-1945
Greg Zolad, Army, 1967-1969

To sign this call send signature to or contact
Veterans Call to Conscience (or VCC) at:
4742 42nd Ave SW #142, Seattle, WA, 98116-4553
www.calltoconscience.net,  Stmttotroops@excite.com

Holy shit! I just skimmed this thread, cuz I had nothing better to do. What I see is a whole lotta people who have NO idea what indymedia is, yelling ad homineim nastiness out into the ether. What a trivial pursuit!

Listen, limbaugh-gers, here's the thing. All your "you people make me sick" horseshit is so much verbal masturbation. Because you know who you're talking to? Yourself. You're screaming at your own frightened, childish little paranoid sterotypes. Are you even paying attention? The people who post here are: Everyone. You're talking to each other, to your neighbors, your friends, and people you don't know. So why all the "you people" crap? Who IS "you people"?

And by the way, Gringo you rock. As ever.

I notice no one has yet been able to answer your question. How are soldiers in Afghanistan (or Iraq, or anywhere else) protecting our rights? They're not. Our rights are eroding out from under us as we speak. Stolen by the Patriot act. Stolen by the illegitimate administration occupying the whitehouse, not that I really care who is in there.

In any event, Gringo, you've maintained a dignified and respectful tone throughout, because you know your arguments are strong. Not like all the "you pukes" shit flying around. Geez. People need more to do. Get out there and WORK for a better world, stop sitting there at your keyboard waiting with foam on your lip for another post.

The GOP "lied" about WMD in Iraq? Evidently the guy on that post isn't old enough to remember the live footage of Iraqi aircraft dropping mustard, blister and nerve gas on civilians Kurd's in the '80's. ABC shot the story. Thousands of women and children were killed. Add the presence of an An-sar Islam terrorist base in northern Iraq and we don't have the right to defend ourselves after something like 9/11? Sounds to me like Tillman did you, and me, a big favor.
I'm sorry if you were washing towels during P.E. while I was at football practice, but you know, you could have stepped-up like Tillman did and at least try to make the team.

My brother has a picture that was taken with him in Fort Benning Georgia.
He was proud to stand for freedom and against tyranny...
The same tyrants who lock children up and torture their mothers because they refuse to join the "party" as directed by Sadam. He fought to insure attacks on innocents (like in New York) are more difficult. He loved his country with all his heart and was so very proud to be who he was. His God was not money so leaving the check to serve the higher, more noble cause of fighting against oppression was an easy choice. You who have posted such hate filled messages are rolling in freedom of speech, won by the blood of our honored national soldiers, like it was cheap French wine. I would ask you to stop and think but you are so filled with hate and anger over a war you know nothing about that you can not think. I have seen the millions of acres of Afghan fields filled with poppy plants. It is about drugs and money. It was NEVER about Islam or freedom but instead the desire to have a tyrannical nation-state where the few can live in opulant luxury at the expense of millions. You are brainwashed by a biased media and know nothing of the truth. It would blind you. It is about power over a poor population, it is about the control of a region by religious zealots. It is about drugs and money. YES MONEY! It is about the fear that the light of freedom for the oppressed will cause to the tyrants and drug lords. Don't talk about an innocent brown people as if you had been there. They are starving, were tortured and beaten; their families torn apart and brutalized. These innocent brown people cry for freedom. Their newborn babies die in their arms for a lack of basic health care because the "party" and religious zelots denied it to them. It is the border crossing fanatics streaming in from Iran, Syria , Bali and the West Bank trying to take oil money away from the people of Iraq that you are defending with your hate speech. But until you have seen the photos of mass graves in Iraq filled with mothers and children and can smugly tell the world they deserved to die you have no voice.

So sit in your chair and enjoy the air conditioning and pizza. Relax in the peace of mind knowing you will not be tortured today for your hate speech. Be glad we have the ability to act as we do.... it was all guaranteed by men fighting to insure people who are as filled with hate and blind to oppression of these freedoms as you are would not prevail. This thread of garbage is based on the media lies and it has nothing to do with the blinding truth of what is happening over there. You sit here in your virtual coffee house and whip up lies long enough that it becomes your truth. You are mystical in your dilusion.
Shame on you all.
Shame.

Freedom is Slavery

Yeah I guess I forgot to add "WHITE". Nowadays I guess that's something I'm supposed to be ashamed of or something.

Also - I'm sorry that was very FASCIST of me to tell any of you to put your bongs down. Sorry if I hurt anyone's little feelings. Is this what's like being a liberal, apologizing for everything? Apolgizing for being American, apologizing for hurting anyone's feelings, apologizing to European countries that America is just SO mean to the terrorists that are hellbent on killing us? Let's just apologize to the world that we're sorry that we've discovered that freedom leads to a damn good quality of life and that we're SO sorry that they haven't figured that out yet. Let's apologize to Eastern Europe for making their "Communist utopia" fail. Let's apologize to Britain for our bad attitudes towards tham during that horrid Revolution we put them through. We should have thought of their feelings. Let's apologize to France for cutting off their Oil for Food money. Let's apologize to the people of Peru for Pizarro slaughtering the Incas (I'm sure that's America's fault somehow). Let's apologize for slavery (wait - Clinton already took care of that for us.) Let's apologize to Spain for the bombing. It was our fault, we shouldn't have gone and made those poor terrorists so upset. They didn't do anything to us (just ask WAKE UP TIME, he'll explain to you how you DIDN'T see the Twin Towers collapse and how the somehow it was a big govt conspiracy that they filmed on a ranch in Crawford, TX or some other theory that is sure to involve black helicopters). While we are at it let's give Khadafi his nukes back. I mean, he's obviously a nice guy, letting us know freely and upfrontly that he had them. I'm sure it wasn't the fact that the U.S. was demonstrating that we are not the Middle East's bitch had nothing to do with him coming out uninstigated and admitting that he had banned weapons. He did it because he's a nice guy and has always been trustworthy. I'm sure Saddam would have done the same if he was guilty, which he obviously was not guilty of anything. If he were guilty of violating resolutions that the whole world drafted and voted on, I'm sure he would have left evidence in plain sight. If he were guilty, he would have gone off and hid in a hole somewhere. We should apologize to Saddam for capturing and shaving him, and release him and give him backpay for taking up his time.

Wow, I feel so refreshed after discovering my true liberal self. I can now see why liberals are always so happy and in such good moods and never complain about anything. I gotta go, I hear a Kumbaya circle forming outside the vegetarian deli.

?

I am quoting you, as follows:

"The GOP "lied" about WMD in Iraq? Evidently the guy on that post isn't old enough to remember the live footage of Iraqi aircraft dropping mustard, blister and nerve gas on civilians Kurd's in the '80's. ABC shot the story. Thousands of women and children were killed. Add the presence of an An-sar Islam terrorist base in northern Iraq and we don't have the right to defend ourselves after something like 9/11? Sounds to me like Tillman did you, and me, a big favor.
I'm sorry if you were washing towels during P.E. while I was at football practice, but you know, you could have stepped-up like Tillman did and at least try to make the team."

(1.) yes, you're right about Saddam supposedly using chemical weapons on Kurdish civilians, and I do
remember it. Yet, what in the hell does that have to do with 9-11? Has NOTHING whatsoever, for the
Iraqi's had NOTHING to do with 9-11...even your own damned dimwitted President says so! Who sold the
chemical weapons to Saddam? Who gave him the dispersal means to deliver it? The US Military did, and
that is a FACT!

(2.) What does "washing towels during P.E. while I (tHiNktAnk) was a football practice" have do with
any of this? It's nothing but bullshit rhetoric for dumbass jocks to engage in breastbeating, while
they pay lip service to Tillman and the REAL issues. It's all about YOU. Shame on YOU! And yes, I
did play football 35 years ago and I felt then most of the jocks were dumbasses and you've just kept
that sterotype alive...get over it being about YOU and grow up and use your fucking brain for something
besides a battering ram!

(2.)

1. I have tried to bring a reasonable answer to your questions. It's plainly obvious to everyone here that you are incapable of conducting yourself in an adult manner.

2. Sorry CHILD, Tim McVeigh was not another "genocidal militarist". He was a former enlistee of the Army that was pissed that he failed the test for the Green Berets(twice). Would a "genocidal militarist" bomb his own country??? I think not CHILD.

3. My email is  DEVILMARINE@hotmail.com because it is a hybrid of the term "Devildog" which the German troops in WW2 gave to the Marines that came to fight them in France, and the term Marine. Self explanatory. Grow up.

4. You don't seem to subscribe to Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Socialist or any other party. You talk about "taking back the Bill of Rights". And just what are you doing to achieve that goal? I didnt think so. You're all talk, just as all internet tough guys are.

5. In reality, the U.S. doesn't need oil from Iraq. Do a little fucking research about the estimated size of the oil field underneath ANWR. If it was drilled, all the arabs could go take a flying fuck.

6. If you had bothered to even take the time to read any of my previous posts, you would plainly see that I am an isolationist. I could give a fuck less about the rest of the world. I just support the troops, because they have no say in where they go or what they do. Sure they could desert, but they could face some serious jail time, something your beefy titted ass would not be willing to face, im sure.

7. I said I trod the road inbetween, voting left on some issues, right on others". You said I was doing nothing in the end. Well, we're all fucking ears here Ghandi, since you seem to be the leader of societal change here in the U.S. Please, enlighten us here as to all you are doing to change things. Otherwise shut the fuck up, and go to bed, bitch.

I almost wish that there was a direct invasion of the U.S.

While people are entitled to their opinion, I wonder if they would change their tune if they had the Chinese dragging them out of their house. I wonder then, if they would be so quick to say, "Well-I'm going to my death, but thank God the U.S. military isn't here."

Listen up assholes. No one said the war in Iraq is a good thing. But to talk shit about the everyday common soldier like it was his plan to invade, is just chickenshit.

Many of them, like myself enlisted for college money, and hoped they wouldn't have to go to war. But, sometimes you have to honor your contract. Yes you could desert and spend some time in jail, or you could fufill your obligation, get out and go to college.

Im sure many of you out there are saying "Yeah-I'd go to jail instead of fighting." But internet talk is just that...all talk.

Think next with logic next time, instead of emotions-you'll make more sense.

Will the men and women who fought for America be "commie scum" when they don't happen to agree with the armchair aggressors?

----

 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/April2004/Bowman0427.htm

Some Dare Call It Treason: Wake Up America!
by Dr. Robert Bowman, USAF Ret.
www.dissidentvoice.org
April 27, 2004

I am a member of Veterans For Peace, an organization of thousands of combat veterans. All of us have put our life on the line for this country. Most of us opposed the recent invasion of Iraq. We also opposed the first Gulf War, and the sanctions that followed. We opposed the slaughter of fleeing Iraqis on the Road to Basra. We opposed the use of Depleted Uranium munitions. And we opposed the lies upon which the first Gulf War was based. But there was one good thing about that first Gulf War. It ended. And without a wholesale invasion of Iraq. Why?

Here's what the first President Bush wrote about that in his memoirs:

"Trying to eliminate Saddam would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible. We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq. There was no viable exit strategy we could see, violating another of our principles. Furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-Cold War world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the United Nations mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression that we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land."

My brothers and sisters, it is just too darn bad his son can't read!

I've been severely criticized for speaking out in opposition to this war. So have you, probably. We're told that we're aiding and abetting the enemy. We're told that we should support the president no matter what. We're told that patriotism demands that we support the war. They say that we're abusing the freedoms that our troops are in the Middle East defending. They say we should be ashamed to be protesting while the troops are in the desert protecting our right to do so.

Well I say, Hogwash!

I feel an affinity for the troops over there in Iraq. They are my comrades in arms. I admire their sense of honor and sacrifice. I understand why some of them believe they should be there. They have neither the experience nor the wisdom to see past the lies they have been told. The truth is, they are not over there protecting our freedoms. Our freedoms are not under attack from Saddam Hussein or the remnants of his Baathist party. Our freedoms are under attack by John Ashcroft. They are threatened by John Poindexter. They are trampled by Donald Rumsfeld. They are disdained by Dick Cheney. And they are not even understood by George W. Bush. The battle to preserve our freedoms is not taking place in Baghdad and Tikrit. It is taking place in Central Park in New York City, in Lafayette Park in Washington DC, in Ghirardelli Park in San Francisco, and in River Front Park in Melbourne, Florida. The front lines go right down US 1 and up New Haven Avenue.

It is we, here at home, who are the foot soldiers battling to preserve our cherished freedoms by exercising them, in spite of opposition and ridicule. It is we who protect our civil rights through speaking out. We are the Minutemen sounding the alarm against tyranny. We are upholding the spirit of the American Revolution. We are preserving the freedoms that the troops in the desert have a right to come back to. The troops getting shot at in Iraq are not protecting us. We are protecting them, and their honor and their freedoms. We have just completed a forced march through hostile territory to defend their freedoms and ours, and the ideals America was founded on. We are protecting this nation by speaking truth to power. Let us do it loudly and fearlessly and courageously and joyfully, for we are the true patriots!

Here is the truth that we proclaim. This war has nothing to do with national security or freedom or democracy or human rights or protecting our allies or weapons of mass destruction or defeating terrorism or disarming Iraq. It has to do with money. It has to do with oil. And it has to do with raw imperial power. It is based on a pack of lies. And it is wrong. Those who forced this war on an unwilling world are guilty of flagrantly violating the US Constitution, the UN Charter, and international law. What they have done is illegal, immoral, unconstitutional and TREASON.

It's been said that somewhere in Texas there is a village looking for their idiot. Now that may be funny, but it misses the point. George W. Bush is not an imbecile. He is a TRAITOR.

Before this war started, we knew it would fracture NATO, split the United Nations, separate us from our allies, and destroy the great nation we inherited from our fathers who died in World War II. And it has. We knew it would make our beloved country feared and hated, an outcast from the world community, a pariah among the peoples, and the number one rogue nation on earth. And it has. It has done so based on a pack of lies. My sisters and brothers, that is not stupidity. That is TREASON.

We knew this sadistic corporate war would incense the Arab world, provide thousands of new Osama bin Ladens, and enormously increase the terrorist threat. And it has. We knew it would further endanger the American people and destroy our national security. And it has. That is not stupidity, it is TREASON.

The cabal of neoconservatives at the Project For a New American Century who planned this war (Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Libby, Perle, Jeb Bush) even before W became president, knew the American people would not stand for it unless there was a new Pearl Harbor. 9/11 supplied that. Our government was warned. They were warned by the Clinton Administration. They were warned by 11 other countries. And they were specifically warned by an FBI agent that one of them was planning on flying a hijacked airliner into the World Trade Center.

They not only ignored the warnings, they made sure no fighter jets were scrambled to stop it. If they had just done nothing, and allowed normal procedures to be followed, the Twin Towers would still be standing and thousands of dead Americans would still be alive. This is not stupidity, it is TREASON.

As a combat veteran, I will not stand idly by and watch our security destroyed by a president who went AWOL rather than fight in Vietnam. Honor requires that I call this by its right name. It is TREASON.

As one who has devoted his life to the security of this country, I will not stand by and watch an appointed president send our sons and daughters around the world to kill Arabs for the oil companies without calling it by its right name. It is TREASON.

I joined the Air Force to protect our borders and our people, not the financial interests of Folgers, Chiquita Banana, and Exxon. We've had enough corporate wars. No more Iraqs. No more El Salvadors. No more Kosovos. No more Colombias. These are not isolated incidents of stupidity. They are part of a long, bloody history of foreign policy being conducted for the financial benefit of the wealthy few. It is a new colonialism. It violates our Constitution. It endangers our people. And it is TREASON.

As a pilot who flew 101 combat missions in Vietnam, I can tell you that the best thing our government can do for its combat veterans is to quit making more of them. Peace is patriotic; a preemptive war is immoral, illegal, unconstitutional, a war crime, and TREASON. I swore to uphold the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic. That includes a renegade president. Wake up, America! It is time for George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, and the whole oil mafia to be removed from office and indicted for TREASON. We are the people. We are sovereign. We are the patriots. The whole world is with us. Never allow anyone to intimidate you into silence. Wake up, America! It's time to speak truth to power. God bless America, and God save us from the traitors in our government.

Dr. Robert Bowman was a colonel in the US Air Force and was Director of Advanced Space Programs Development under President Jimmy Carter. He is Presiding Archbishop, United Catholic Church. He has been president of the Institute for Space and Security Studies since 1982. Before that he was vice-president of Space Communications Company; manager, Advanced Space Programs for General Dynamics; and director, Advanced Space Programs Development for the Department of Defense, directing the "Star Wars" programs. He is also a progressive populist candidate for President of the United States. He may be reached via email at:  isss@rmbowman.com. See also his web site:  http://www.rmbowman.com.

"1. I have tried to bring a reasonable answer to your questions. It's plainly obvious to everyone here that you are incapable of conducting yourself in an adult manner."

--I'VE GIVEN FAR MORE EXPLICIT REFERENCES, CITATIONS, AND RESEARCH TOOLS THAN YOU HAVE. YOU'RE JUST NAME-CALLING AT THIS POINT.

"2. Sorry CHILD, Tim McVeigh was not another "genocidal militarist". He was a former enlistee of the Army that was pissed that he failed the test for the Green Berets(twice). Would a "genocidal militarist" bomb his own country??? I think not CHILD."

--HEY BABY, HE WAS GENOCIDAL AND HE WAS A MILITARIST. PERIOD, END.
(and if you really think he "bombed his own country" then you have a lot more to learn and research to do about Oklahoma City)

"3. My email is  DEVILMARINE@hotmail.com because it is a hybrid of the term "Devildog" which the German troops in WW2 gave to the Marines that came to fight them in France, and the term Marine. Self explanatory. Grow up."

--KEEP ON FELLATING THE GENOCIDAL MILITARY HERITAGE. YOU LOVE IT, IT LOVES YOU.

"4. You don't seem to subscribe to Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Socialist or any other party. You talk about "taking back the Bill of Rights". And just what are you doing to achieve that goal? I didnt think so. You're all talk, just as all internet tough guys are."

-START TAKING RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR OWN GOVERNMENT. HOLD THE BUSH REGIME ACCOUNTABLE FOR ENRON, ENERGY POLICY, IRAQ, 9-11, AND NUMEROUS OTHER ACTS OF TREASON AND FEDERAL CRIMES. CHECK OUT A GROUP NAMED "Judicial Watch", AMONG MANY, MANY OTHERS.

"5. In reality, the U.S. doesn't need oil from Iraq. Do a little fucking research about the estimated size of the oil field underneath ANWR. If it was drilled, all the arabs could go take a flying fuck."

-THE ARCTIC NATIONAL WILDLIFE REFUGE RESERVES WOULD LAST THE U.S. 4 MONTHS TOTAL AT CURRENT CONSUMPTION RATES. DO AN INTERNET SEARCH ON THE TERMS: "Peak Oil" AND YOU WILL LEARN A LOT, BABY BOY "Wyatt".

"6. If you had bothered to even take the time to read any of my previous posts, you would plainly see that I am an isolationist. I could give a fuck less about the rest of the world. I just support the troops, because they have no say in where they go or what they do. Sure they could desert, but they could face some serious jail time, something your beefy titted ass would not be willing to face, im sure."

--My ASS IS FAR FROM "beefy titted". YOU ARE A CLUELESS "isolationist" AS I POINTED OUT NUMEROUS TIMES ABOVE, AND YOU DON'T "give a fuck less about the rest of the world." KEEP SLEEPING.

"7. I said I trod the road inbetween, voting left on some issues, right on others". You said I was doing nothing in the end. Well, we're all fucking ears here Ghandi [sic], since you seem to be the leader of societal change here in the U.S. Please, enlighten us here as to all you are doing to change things. Otherwise shut the fuck up, and go to bed, bitch."

--IT'S UP TO **YOU** WYATT. EITHER WAKE THE FUCK UP, OR BECOME A SLAVE TO HOMELAND SECURITY, BITCH.

(if you're going to invoke it, at least spell the name correctly: _G_A_N_D_H_I_ .)

thinktank, your beloved USA installed Saddam as dictator of Iraq. When Saddam gassed the Kurds in the 1980s the US protected him from criticism and the obedient corporate media remained almost totally silent. American and French corporations sold Saddam those WMDs - there was no outcry then, was there.

Funny how the US does whatever the hell it wants to whenever it wants to. But when Saddam brutalizes the WRONG people (Kuwaitis) then look out! The USA is an ultrtaviolent gangster that looks the other way when its client nations kill its own civilians. Pure hypocrisy.

Wyatt, I understand your frustration because some veterans I know have lived through Vietnam and the experience changed them for the worse, as they readily admit. But it was a soldiers' revolt that stopped that war. All the protesting and peace marching at home did almost nothing. What crippled the US Army was its grunts, fragging and refusing to fight. Check out this excellent article about the brave draftees who fought back against their commanders and ended Vietnam:
 http://www.isreview.org/issues/09/soldiers_revolt.shtml

So there is nop threat to the United States coming from the Middle East? Then just how the fuck do you pathetic socialist assholes explain the gigantic crater in NYC where the World Trade Center used to be> You morons embracing the very people who want us dead makes me sick. You are too damn stupid to realize that Al-Queda (no I don't give a crap if I misspelled it) wants YOU dead too, simply because you are an American.

If you don't like it here, there's a simple solution - get the fuck out. See how you like living in Iran or Syria. Get the hell out of the way and let Americans who don't have their heads up their asses defend freedom.

The comments by the Pro-American military goons on this site are reflective of the fascist delusion which American patriots stand for and believe in.

Beneath all their flag-waving, goose-stepping, and patriotic propaganda, these American fascists don't have the courage or backbone to face the fact that YOUR AMERICAN EMPIRE DOESN'T REPRESENT FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY. You never did and you will never will. A nation like America which was built upon Chattel Slavery and Native American genocide ain't a nation based upon "democracy and freedom."

Like the Nazis before them, these American Fascists now are attempting to justify American aggresion, colonization, and exploitation of other nations by repeating the lie that the US Military is protecting your (phony) freedoms.

It tells you alot about American "freedom and democracy" that these American Nazis define these principles based upon WAGING WARS OF AGGRESSION AGAINST THE REST OF HUMANITY.

Whenever one of these American Nazis uses the words "freedom and democracy" substitute the words "American exploitation and tyranny" in their place, and you will be able to cut through the American Doublespeak and understand what they really mean.

Osama (supposedly it was him, right?) was responsible for 9-11. He is from SAUDI ARABIA. He trained his soldiers in AFGHANISTAN. Neither of those places are IRAQ. Or are all brown Arab-speaking people the same to you? Do you call the "ragheads" with your buddies? Do you think Muslims want us all dead? Are all those people out to get us? Do you watch TV a lot for your news? If someone from LIBYA kills your dad will you want to invade SYRIA if Your Glorious Leader suggests that next? That's like a country invading the USA for something that Canada did.

FALLUJAH, Iraq -- US Marines tentatively agreed last night to turn over security in this guerrilla stronghold to a new Iraqi force led by former Iraqi Army officers that could include some insurgents Marines have been battling.

 link to www.boston.com

I see your point. So when an attacker comes from say... Michigan... and performs a terrorist attack against the US... we should bomb, invade and occupy Michigan? That is how your reasoning goes, after all. That's where McVeigh comes from, right? Or was it Montana? I'm not as intelligent as you, or so you claim Thomas, so I don't know which state we should have bombed.

So if you want to make sure that there are no more terrorists, you think it is wise to bomb, invade and occupy the land where some terrorists have originated? What about the fact that those in that foreign land who had nothing to do with the terrorist attack will be PISSED that their countrymen/women are being killed/wounded all because of something they didn't do (excepting the terrorists who actually DID do it)? Don't you think that by doing so, you have created more terrorists by your actions? And created more danger to the US?

I think you group people together to make it easier for yourself to understand the world. You group all Arabs with all other Arabs, all Muslims with all other Muslims, all Iraqis with all other Iraqis, all Indymedia regulars with all other Indymedia regulars. You want to penalize entire countries for the crimes of a few of them, and in doing so you will create more terrorists than ever.

For example, you think that I will insult you Thomas, yet I have not insulted anyone on this thread. But others have. So you lump me in with them. That doesn't SOUND like an intelligent thing to do. Are you relly more intelligent than me? Is that the point of this conversation to you, really? Maybe you are more intelligent - I don't know you. I have no evidence that your name is really Thomas, though. And for you to suggest that I am a coward because I am, like you, commenting online, is far more disingenuous of you than me asking a question trying to get you dittoheads to see the holes in your logic.

Well like I said in my first post. You're all hysterics and talk. No action. You are on here seemingly calling for a revolution and yet, you do nothing.

The thing is, people like you that use emotional hysterics instead of logic are incapable of being reasoned with. I think it's plain to see that you've conducted yourself like a douche bag on here, and no one seems to be able to draw any conclusion from your long winded anti-everything diatribe. This is my last response to you, as there is no logical reasoning with hysterical people.

So, in closing, keep up the tough guy talk over the internet. I realize it's the only forum in which you can talk that way to people and not get your ass kicked.

Goodbye, Little Boy.

You kids are funny.

Gringo said..
"I see your point. So when an attacker comes from say... Michigan... and performs a terrorist attack against the US... we should bomb, invade and occupy Michigan? That is how your reasoning goes, after all. That's where McVeigh comes from, right? Or was it Montana? I'm not as intelligent as you, or so you claim Thomas, so I don't know which state we should have bombed.""

You are confusing civil war with foreign war. And you are confusing individual acts (McVeigh) with state sponsored terrorism. If Michigan formed an army to take over the federal government (like the South did in the civil war) then, yes, the federal government would invade Michigan and vanquish the army. If Michigan state government harbored and supported terrorists, (like the Taliban in Afghanistan) then, yes, we would invade the state of Michigan and change the state government. Do you now see the fault in your logic?

""So if you want to make sure that there are no more terrorists, you think it is wise to bomb, invade and occupy the land where some terrorists have originated?""

Yes, if the government there is supporting them and training them.

" What about the fact that those in that foreign land who had nothing to do with the terrorist attack will be PISSED that their countrymen/women are being killed/wounded all because of something they didn't do (excepting the terrorists who actually DID do it)? Don't you think that by doing so, you have created more terrorists by your actions? And created more danger to the US? ""

No. I'm sure they think that liberation from totalitarian rule is worth a few innocent lives in return for the greater good. I'm sure that the women in Afghanistan love the U.S. At least they can now go to school!

"I think you group people together to make it easier for yourself to understand the world. You group all Arabs with all other Arabs, all Muslims with all other Muslims, all Iraqis with all other Iraqis, all Indymedia regulars with all other Indymedia regulars. You want to penalize entire countries for the crimes of a few of them, and in doing so you will create more terrorists than ever."

I don't think that most Iraqi's and Afghani's feel penalized. We were welcomed in open arms in Baghdad and other cities. Also in the French cities after WWII. Interesting that a number of US soldiers in Vietnam came back with Vietnamese brides.

""For example, you think that I will insult you Thomas, yet I have not insulted anyone on this thread.""

You do in the very next paragraph.

"trying to get you dittoheads to see the holes in your logic."

Nice insult, gringo. Calling us mindless Rush Limbaugh syncophants. So much for your non-insulting format. The holes in logic seem to be yours.

Dave

And can you anti-war types please stop the incessant shouting of Bush waging "war for oil"? It makes no sense or logic. If George Bush and the U.S. and halliburton were interested in oil, we would have stayed in Iraq after the first gulf war and marched on Baghdad then.

Better yet, if the U.S. was really interested in oil, we would have invaded Venezuela. It's a lot closer, has a lot of oil, and would have been easier to conquer! Anti-war types can't seem to grasp simple logic as this.

Do you really think that Gaddafi of Libya really had a change of heart and developed a conscience? I doubt it very much. He wants oil revenues and he needs Halliburton and Exxon to come in and help him get more oil out of the ground. Seismic 3-D mapping and other American high technology. For crying out loud, even his son said last year "We want to invest in the New York Stock Exchange". That was a shocker.

In the end, Iraq will be very grateful to the U.S. just like Kuwait is. Don't forget, a decade ago, they paid Bush Sr. a million bucks to come over and recieve accolades for being their liberator. That was when Saddam tried to assassinate him.

Dave

How was Osama "state sponsored" terrorism when Afghanistan offered to hand him over to the US, but the US balked and invaded anyway? Didn't sound very supportive of them. What terrorism has Iraq sponsored, except for the US-provided WMDs that made the US-approved 80s attacks on Iraqi Kurds possible? (Back when Saddam was obediently "our" dictator)

Iraqis suffer from 70 percent unemployment and 100 percent of their food comes from foreign aid. All of this is because the US bombed their infrastructure to bits, and imposed sanctions on Iraq for over 11 years. So they have no means of taking care of themselves. Iraqis are NOT happy. Hence the insurgency. that's why 150,000 US/UK/etc troops are pinned down in Iraq:
 http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/04/287009.shtml

Afghani women are as oppressed as they were under the Taliban. They wear burqas still. The only place Afghani women are better off now is in the corporate media's mythology.

I honestly thought Rush fans called themselves dittoheads. Doesn't Rush himself use that word? I didn't realize it was a pejorative. I'll quit using that word if it offends you, either way.

The welcome you describe in Baghdad "with open arms" was from a substantial portion of the people there, who thought the US was liberating them. You are right about that. But once it was apparent that the US was an occupying army and that the US soldiers do not have the welfare of Iraq in mind, their minds changed. Precious few Iraqis are fond of the US now. Many of them are fond of Saddam now, who weren't before, all because the US has made him look like a saint in comparison.

<<Also in the French cities after WWII. Interesting that a number of US soldiers in Vietnam came back with Vietnamese brides.>>

First off, we are talking about NOW, in IRAQ and AFGHANISTAN. But anyways: We got out of France very quickly, not occupying them like we do 3rd world nations. We should have done the same in Iraq and Afghanistan but we didn't, hence creating more enemies/terrorists. And after the US decimated the land/economy in Vietnam and killed anywhere from 2 to 3.5 million Vietnamese civilians, there were few option for survival in Vietnam. Marriage to a US soldier was a one-way ticket to the land of milk and honey.

There is NO evidence linking the Taliban or Saddam to any terrorist acts against the US. They know that to do so is suicide.

Check out these 2 short articles about Iraq:
 http://www.isreview.org/issues/35/editorial.shtml

WAKE UP TIME:

"THE U.S. MILITARY IS TO PROTECT THE UNITED STATES BORDERS AND GOVERNMENT. NOTHING MORE. IS THE U.S. MILITARY BEING USED "properly" IN IRAQ OR AFGHANISTAN? LOL. YOU ARE SO FAR BEYOND A PARODY OR JOKE THAT YOU'RE INCAPABLE OF EVEN GETTING ONTO THE STAGE TO BE LAUGHED OFF OF IT."

OK. Then our involvement in WWI and WWII were also illegal and immoral because our borders were not attacked? Wait, Pearl Harbor. OK, then we had a green light to go after the Japanese. But, wait, we didn't fight them on our soil. But,... why did we go to Europe? Should have let those bastards burn in Nazi hell, eh?

-----

My original post:

"GRINGO STARS (who is still a coward for not using his real name) writes:

"NOW will someone please explain HOW the US's invasion and occupation of foreign countries is somehow "defending my freedoms"?"

This statement - pure periphrasis - sounds at first glance as though it has some merit. However, upon closer examination it is a straw man.

"...invasion and occupation of foreign countries...". This is what the Greeks called Synecdoche: using a whole for the part or a part for the whole. Basically, what El Gringo is doing is trying to lump Afghanistan and Iraq in with all other countries, since he doesn't specifically cite them and, instead, uses the generic "foreign countries".

It won't work. Why? Because it's hyperbole. How do I know this? Because I'm smarter than he is.

"Me again:

"But you obviously didn't understand my point, which wasn't that STARS was implying our desire to subgigate [sic] ALL countries to our will, but rather he used the term as a persuasive device in order to make a point he couldn't make based on the facts alone."

WAKE UP TIME:

"--WHATEVER THE FUCK YOU ARE TRYING TO ADDRESS HERE, YOU'VE MAGNIFICENTLY SUCCEEDED IN SHOWING WHAT A BRAINLESS DOLT YOU ARE."

Yeah, right. At least you got a chance to correct my spelling, even if you don't have a clue how to refute what I say beyond calling me a "brainless dolt" (obviously for using words above your reading level).

Some more evidence for you:

 http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/south/03/03/pakistan.arrests/

snippet: "Al-Hawsawi's phone number was also found on a Federal Express package sent by Atta in early September 2001 from Florida to the U.A.E. The number was also used as a point of contact for a wire transfer to Ramzi Binalshibh, who was arrested in Pakistan in September 2002, and has admitted a role in planning the attacks." That's the 9/11 attacks.

 http://frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=12292

snippet: "Al-Shamari also told me that the links between Saddam's regime and the al-Qaeda network went beyond Ansar al Islam. He explained in considerable detail that Saddam actually ordered Abu Wael to organize foreign fighters from outside Iraq to join Ansar. Al-Shamari estimated that some 150 foreign fighters were imported from al Qaeda clusters in Jordan, Turkey, Syria, Yemen, Egypt, and Lebanon to fight with Ansar al Islam's Kurdish fighters."

 http://www.themercury.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,7713542^401,00.html

snippet: "NBC News first reported the al-Douri link to Ansar al-Islam last night. Asked today about the report, Pentagon spokesman Larry Di Rita said he did not know anything about it." [Ansar al-Islam works with Al Queda.]

 http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=10102

snippet: "INITIALLY, some observers believed that the H-1 soldiers were mistaking Ansar captives for al Qaeda. But at the September 26 briefing, Bremer, for the first time, revealed that American forces had indeed captured "two dozen" al Qaeda in Iraq."

 http://www.gcc.edu/news/faculty/editorials/kengor_saddam_3_19.htm

snippet: "This was nothing compared to the bomb dropped a few days later by two high-level Iraqi defectors interviewed by the New York Times, the BBC, and PBS's documentary series "Frontline." One of the defectors was Sabah Khodada, a captain in the Iraqi army from 1982 to 1992. In the mid-1990s, he worked at a clandestine Iraqi terrorist training camp called Salman Pak, south of Baghdad. He described a super-sensitive center separated from the rest of the camp, under the direct control of Saddam himself. At that center, non-Iraqi terrorists were trained. These suicide fighters were of Saudi and Egyptian origin, mostly Saudi. They trained on an actual 707 commercial airplane. They learned how to hijack the aircraft without using guns - by brandishing simple knives and even utensils. They were trained on how to instill terror among passengers."

Osama is from Saudi Arabia - he started Al Queda there. Many Al Queda agents are Saudi. Many of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi.

 http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/gunning/

This is a very extensive Frontline piece which deals with tons of Iraq stuff. Both sides of the arguments heard here are aired, so don't be quoting me only those passages that support your views. It's a very balanced, extensive piece.

Here's a specific piece from this Frontline site:  http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/gunning/interviews/khodada.html

 http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2003/9/22/110207.shtml

snippet: "According to a report Sunday by the Associated Press, 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed "told his interrogators he had worked in 1994 and 1995 in the Philippines with Ramzi Yousef, Abdul Hakim Murad and Wali Khan Amin Shah on the foiled Bojinka plot to blow up 12 Western airliners simultaneously in Asia."

"Yousef, of course, was the man who plotted and executed the failed 1993 World Trade Center bombing, who entered the U.S. on an Iraqi passport the year before and whose partner in the plot, Abdul Rahman Yasin, was granted sanctuary by Saddam Hussein after the attack. Yasin is still at large."

 http://query.nytimes.com/search/article-page.html?res=9B01EED81E39F93BA35752C1A9

You'll need a password to get into this one.

 http://observer.guardian.co.uk/focus/story/0,6903,591439,00.html

 link to tennessean.com

This one has trouble loading - it wouldn't load for me. It's about a Tennessee judge who has documents from Iraq pre-9/11 that link Saddam to Al Queda. I would have loved to have read it before posting it here, but maybe you can get it to open.

 http://foi.missouri.edu/terrorintelligence/cialetter.html

 http://www.fas.org/irp/world/iraq/956-tni.htm

This article is long and covers Ramzi Yousef and his ties to Bagdad. He is the '93 WTC bomber. A previous article links he to Al Queda.

 http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20031201-123723-4738r.htm

snippet: "Saddam never moved against a huge al Qaeda presence on his own territory — the headquarters of Ansar al-Islam in northern Iraq. This radical Kurdish group has ties to al Qaeda officials in Afghanistan. The U.S. smashed the camp in the early days of Operation Iraqi Freedom."

 http://www.chronwatch.com/featured/contentDisplay.asp?aid=4357

This one is the best; I'd love to post the whole thing here.

 http://www.september11news.com/OsamaEvidence.htm

snippet: [this is a transcript of that videotape found in Kabul I mentioned in my last post. The speaker is Osama: "UBL: The brothers, who conducted the operation, all they knew was that they have a martyrdom operation and we asked each of them to go to America but they didn't know anything about the operation, not even one letter. But they were trained and we did not reveal the operation to them until they are there and just before they boarded the planes."

"...we asked each of them to go..."

Spin it, brothers.

This last page is long and includes other information.

Now, on to Yak.

Yak wrote:

"well, i just did. and the comments aside that ANYONE can modify that wikipedia, i have to inform you that, regardless of your very temperate response (i thank you) there is absolutely no evidene contained in that link. PLEASE SPELL IT OUT FOR ME AS I AM ENTIRELY TOO DUMB TO SEE IT MYSELF."

Assuredly. See the above links.

Yak again:

"also, khalids testimony is not proof."

Tell that to the thousands and thousands of men and women in US prisons who were convicted solely of the basis of testimony. You're just changing the standards to suit your needs.

THAT'S not logic.

Yak:

""Since the attacks, Arab and Muslim newspapers have repeatedly denied the involvment of either Arabs or Muslims in the attacks of September 11, 2001. Rather these sources propose a variety of actors including, the United States Government, the Israeli Government, the Israeli intelligence agencies, and the Jews collectively."

"well, there you have it, your definitive source of evidence is not that. it is speculative. please send evidence. ok?"

I never said "Arabs" or "Muslims" were involved in 9/11. That's painting with too broad a brush (I couldn't do that any, because you clowns have all the broad brushes).

The fact that the 9/11 hijackers WERE muslims doesn't impugn all Muslims or Arabs. I have Muslim and Arab friends who hate Al Queda because it makes them look bad.

So these Muslim and Arab newspapers can say "Muslim" and "Arab" all they want. It proves nothing; it's just another clever use of words. It's like saying "no Americans bombed the Oklahoma Federal Building". Well, no "Americans" didn't do that, but two (maybe more) people who coincidently HAPPEN TO BE AMERICAN did. It's another straw man.

And just because these Arab newspapers point fingers to Israel, U.S., and Jews means nothing. Just as your claim that the testimony of captured terrorists means nothing. Arabs blame Jews for everything, or haven't you figured that out yet?

Yak:

"also, do you care to refute that anonymous LIED when they stated that this is the first time girls have been allowed to be educated in Iraq? do you? it is a lie. do you agree?"

I can't agree that he lied, because I don't know him or where he got his information from. I DO know that life for the average Iraqi is much better now than it has been for years. The press doesn't report all the great things our soldiers have done in Iraq. They just report the number of U.S. dead, and show us little pieces of video of burning cars.

"wikipedia! that will go down as probably the single most hilariuos attempt to provide proof i have ever seen. you quote a freaking online encyclopedia that anyone can post an articel to. you have seriously given me a good laugh. thanks Thomas. BTW, my name is Eric."

Nive to meet you, Eric. We should have a latte some time - we'd probably like each other under different circumstances.

Wyatt,

"The thing is, people like you that use emotional hysterics instead of logic are incapable of being reasoned with."

Emotional hysterics? You mean those people whose answer to EVERYTHING is either "they died for your freedom" or "if you don't like it, get out"? Seemed like pretty emotional stuff to me. I do worry that they are beyond reason, but it would still be kind of nice if we could actually communicate.

Son of a US Veteran, (I'm one of those too)

"If you don't like it here, there's a simple solution - get the fuck out"

Can I say that next time somebody is still going on about those awful Clinton Years or complaining about how the rich liberals have taken over the media and the country? If it's not the solution to their discontent, then why should it be the solution to mine?

Dave,

"If George Bush and the U.S. and halliburton were interested in oil, we would have stayed in Iraq after the first gulf war and marched on Baghdad then."

If you read some passages quoted from the elder Bush above, I wonder if Bush Sr. wanted to try to get re-elected with that going on. As it was there was a lot I don't think we were told. Apparently Iraqis were bulldozed into mass graves in the Gulf War and the television told me to my face they were gently bested and subdued in purely hand-to-hand combat. I presume there was some serious concern there also about how Bush Sr.'s approval ratings were going to be affected even by as much as did go on, let alone by adding occupation at that point.

The PNAC document mentioned above "advises" that people are not going to put up with such a thing without a "New Pearl Harbor" to egg them on. There are a number of quotes from inside the White House that sound like Bush Jr. was keenly aware of public perception on Iraq. Bush Jr. seems to know very well it may not be the kind of thing Americans ordinarily accept, even after 9/11. There seems to be a sizable concern about how to _get_ the American people to "buy" an Iraq occupation, and it doesn't seem to me like much of a stretch to say that it has to wait for the right time and the right climate.

"Better yet, if the U.S. was really interested in oil, we would have invaded Venezuela. It's a lot closer, has a lot of oil, and would have been easier to conquer! Anti-war types can't seem to grasp simple logic as this."

Do you think we were going to believe Venezuela was connected to 9/11? The connection to Iraq was flimsy enough for millions of people.

"In the end, Iraq will be very grateful to the U.S. just like Kuwait is."

We seem to have gone in to Iraq thinking, or being told, that they'd be instantly grateful and in fact they are still less grateful every day. That's maybe understandable when some of them are looking at oil ready to flow but _still_ no water supply, but if it's understandable it's also predictable enough to put on the table beforehand, or to re-arrange some priorities around. I don't think our attempts to presume Iraqi gratitude have been very helpful so far. Our relationship with Kuwait, speaking of them, also seems to have a lot to with oil, interestingly enough.

GRINGO again:

"How was Osama "state sponsored" terrorism when Afghanistan offered to hand him over to the US, but the US balked and invaded anyway?"

Read this:

 http://www.guardian.co.uk/waronterror/story/0,1361,575593,00.html

Salient points: First, the Taliban never offred to hand Bin Laden over to the U.S. directly. They said they wanted "evidence". A ruse, of course.

So, we decided to go get him on our own. After we started bombing Afghanistan (before the troops went in), all of a sudden the Taliban realised THIS President had kahonies, unlike his predecessor.

Also, the Taliban was under increasing pressure from Pakistan (who also suddenly got religion) and other Arab countries to hand Bin Laden over (Saudi Arabia especially - they hated the guy because he'd been trying to kill the royal family for years - he still is).

The Taliban foreign minister freaked and offered to turn Bin Laden over to a country "other than the U.S." Which was really not an offer because no Arab country would take him, fearing the U.S. if it was a ruse and Bin Laden "opps, escaped", AND fearing Al Queda would start bombing THEM should they go ahead and try the guy.

So, we didn't balk. It was a duplicitous offer and we saw through it.

Don't forget this: "The Taliban have offered to hand over Bin Laden before but only if sufficient evidence was presented. Bin Laden is wanted both for the September 11 attacks and for masterminding the bombings of two US embassies in East Africa in 1998 in which 224 people were killed. He is also suspected of involvement in other terrorist attacks, including the suicide bombing of the USS Cole in Yemen last year."

Bin Laden didn't just pop up on 9/11/01. He's left a trail of dead for a long, long time.

Gringo said.

""How was Osama "state sponsored" terrorism when Afghanistan offered to hand him over to the US, but the US balked and invaded anyway? Didn't sound very supportive of them.""

That is entirely wrong. That was Sudan, not Afghanistan. Are you actually saying that the taliban offered up Osama? What a laugh! And that was during the Clinton years. Where do you get your facts from? From Marxist web sites you provide a link to?


""What terrorism has Iraq sponsored, except for the US-provided WMDs that made the US-approved 80s attacks on Iraqi Kurds possible? (Back when Saddam was obediently "our" dictator)""

You didn't read my previous post for content. To sum up, Abu Nidal, Salman Pak, and the recent Jordanian attempted chemical attack. And do you really, really, really think that logic would dictate that Saddam did not sponsor terrorism? Come on now, Saddam was paying the families of Palestinian suicide bombers $25,000 to do the dirty deed. Surely you know that!

""Iraqis suffer from 70 percent unemployment and 100 percent of their food comes from foreign aid. All of this is because the US bombed their infrastructure to bits, and imposed sanctions on Iraq for over 11 years. So they have no means of taking care of themselves. Iraqis are NOT happy. Hence the insurgency. that's why 150,000 US/UK/etc troops are pinned down in Iraq:
 http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/04/287009.shtml ""

Germany after WWII suffered from the same thing! The Marshall Plan was foreign aid to the Germans too! And there is no question that Germany is better today than under Hitler. As for you saying that Iraqi's are not happy, you are so wrong. The Kurds are especially happy! An ABC poll of 2,737 Iraqi's in February reported that 70% of those polled said that things today are "good". 29% said "bad". When asked how they will be in one year, 71% said "better", 9% said "same" 7% said "worse" .

here's the link..
 http://abcnews.go.com/images/pdf/949a1IraqPoll.pdf

It really is an in-depth poll. And ABC News is hardly a right-wing conspiracy! LOL! You should check your facts before you look foolish on this forum.

""Afghani women are as oppressed as they were under the Taliban. They wear burqas still. The only place Afghani women are better off now is in the corporate media's mythology.""

They wear burkas now by choice, not by decree. Big difference. As for the rest of your statement, that is just your personal speculation with you presenting no basis in fact.

""The welcome you describe in Baghdad "with open arms" was from a substantial portion of the people there, who thought the US was liberating them. You are right about that. But once it was apparent that the US was an occupying army and that the US soldiers do not have the welfare of Iraq in mind, their minds changed. Precious few Iraqis are fond of the US now. Many of them are fond of Saddam now, who weren't before, all because the US has made him look like a saint in comparison.""

Again, you provide no basis in fact. I will rely on the ABC poll that asks "Which countries should play a role in the rebuilding of Iraq". The answer of "United States" and "Japan" led the responses by a wide margin(question 11)!! When asked "Which countries should not play a role", Iran, Israel and Kuwait scored higher than the U.S.!!! In addition, from November to the end of February, this poll says that confidence in U.S. and U.K. occupation forces has gone up, not down!(Question 14b(i)), although, admittedly, twice as many people were not confident as confident. Next, 86% of Iraqi's said that Iraq needs a democracy. (Question 15a(g)).

Should I go on gringo? Or have you had enough of REAL facts?


<<Also in the French cities after WWII. Interesting that a number of US soldiers in Vietnam came back with Vietnamese brides.>>

""First off, we are talking about NOW, in IRAQ and AFGHANISTAN. But anyways: We got out of France very quickly, not occupying them like we do 3rd world nations.""

Huh? WWII and it's aftermath took YEARS!! Not months. And which 3rd world nations are we "occupying"? By that you mean that we are not invited to keep protecting them. Name the 3rd world nations.

"" We should have done the same in Iraq and Afghanistan but we didn't, hence creating more enemies/terrorists. And after the US decimated the land/economy in Vietnam and killed anywhere from 2 to 3.5 million Vietnamese civilians, there were few option for survival in Vietnam. Marriage to a US soldier was a one-way ticket to the land of milk and honey.""

But wait, you and your ilk on here seem to infer that the U.S. is not the land of milk and honey! You want marxism, you want socialism! Which is it? Huh? Or, if you are inferring that the U.S. is known by foreigners as the land of milk and honey, then why do they hate us so much? Maybe they really don't. Or maybe the alternative is hating themselves? The realize that their system is a failure compared to ours. Capitalism rules, does it not? As for Vietnam, you don't think that communist North Vietnam would have decimated the South Vietnam economy? Ha! Communism destroys every economy. And where do you get the figure that the US killed 2 to 3.5 million Vietnamese civilians? I challenge you to state your source.


""There is NO evidence linking the Taliban or Saddam to any terrorist acts against the US. They know that to do so is suicide.

Check out these 2 short articles about Iraq:
 http://www.isreview.org/issues/35/editorial.shtml ""

You refer me to a marxist website?? Is that the best you got? There were so many inaccuracies in that website I don't know where to begin.

Let's face facts, shall we? Communism is a failure. Russia tried it and failed. It is now a market economy. China tried it and failed. It is now a market economy. As for socialism, that is failing too. Why is the unemployment rate in socialist Europe constantly in double digits, while the US unemployment rarely is? As margaret Thatcher famously said. "Eventually, socialists run out of spending other people's money".

Dave

how successful was Vietnam?

O.I.L. will be MORE successful.

No I wasn't referring to the "He was a hero" crowd. Whether or not he was a hero is obviously up for debate. I give Tillman credit for getting off of his ass and doing something (anything) in response to 9/11, when he could have easily racked up millions in the NFL. He pursued something HE believed in, be it right or wrong.

I was referring to "wake up time" whose posts are bordering on incoherent. I stopped trying to debate him, because he is obviously incapable of having a detached debate, without resorting to hysterics. In a few of his maniacal posts he flamed me for "not doing anything" to combat/overthrow the current "genocidal militaristic regime", but when questioned as to what HE has done to change things, he just babbles on somemore about baby killers and whatnot.

It's not possible to have a debate with someone like that when they are obviously so emotionally hysteric, they can't make a point besides vulgar language and answering "genocidal militaristic regime" to your every point.

Thomas,
thanks for all the links. I've seen the first three before but am interested in the frontline piece. thank you for actually trying to provide factual information. you have no idea how hard it is to find proof about queda connection to 9/11 (or maybe you do). my contention that there is little to back up claims by our government is not out in la la land. it really is weird how little proof their is. for example, i said "khalid's testimony" but in fact it wasnt testimony, was it? was it under oath? i dont think so. and THAT is NOT enough to get someone years in prison.
i'll post more later, thoughts, etc. until then: if you are in the portland area, and are interested in meeting, email me at mellamoguernica at yahoo.com. i dont really drink coffee, or smoothies, but beer is a staple of my diet.

YES, I'm saying that the Taliban offered Osama to the US. At first, you are correct that the Taliban wanted evidence of Osama's involvement (which sounds quite reasonable to me, doesn't it to you?) but when the US (inexplicably balked at such a simple request, the Taliban then offered to simply give the US Osama. But the US balked again and invaded anyway. Thomas, you have absolutely no evidence that these were duplicitous offers made by the Taliban. It was in their best interest to avoid an invasion/occupation and they knew it. Don't take my word for it. Research, by all means.

Saddam supports the independance of Palestine, which is not unreasonable. Israeli occupation forces are brutally oppressing Palestinians. The UN has made many (over 60 I think) public condemnations of Israel's brutally violent occupation of Palestine. Saddam, like many Arabs, use Palestinians as a cause they champion. Similarly, the CIA does exactly what these organizations do: they perform violent acts in order to achieve political goals. If you want terrorists, the CIA is one of the most murderous terrorist organizations around.

I guess what it comes down to is your unquestioning belief in the honesty of the corporate media, which thrives on profits, and shares financvial interests with many "defense" and rebuilding corporations that profit from the destruction of Iraq. Conflict of interest. Lies. Yet you trust ABC.

Yet you don't trust Marxist sites. yet even conservative economists will admit that Marx's economic theories are now widely accepted, despite mainstream controversy over his suggestions for social justice. One thing is certainly true: Russia was only somewhat communist for the first two years tops, before a coup turned it into a state capitalist bureucratic dictatorship. Trotsky, the best socialist theorist of the time in my opinion, was chased out of Russia by the mad state capitalist dictator Stalin, and eventually killed by Stalinists.

Socialist and communist regimes have been violently and consistently undermined by the US and its anti-communist allies. Communism never got a fair chance to even see if it worked. Either dictators from within or intentional economic/military sabotage from without effectively destroyed any socialist governments. Even now, Venezuela's socialist givernment is under heavy attack from the US corporate media.

I understand that your understanding of socialism and communism is not developed at all, given your immediate recoiling from a (gasp!) MARXIST site. But you would do well to understand such ideas. You do not cite any innacuracies in that socialist website. I found none so far. Most of the articles on that site (although not the one I linked too) are extensively footnoted so that you can look up the information for yourself if you don't believe the (gasp!) socialists. Try this article about Iraq's footnotes:
 http://www.isreview.org/issues/30/corporateinvasion.shtml

Dave, I have yet to hear any real facts from you. I get a lot of self-serving propaganda from corporate media, but nothing else besides.

There are no socialist countries in europe. You need to educate yourself as to the varying degrees of mixes between capitalism and socialism.

i been going through the links from Thomas. i was not familiar with the frontpage magazine article (i said i knew the first three, but it was a different three) and found it very interesting, until, unfortunatley, the conenction with David Horowitz set off a bell in my head. not saying that the info is not valid, only that david horowitz, well, let's just say i am solidly on justin raimondo's side of their little fued. how's that for a liberal? calling raimondo a liberal is a slight stretch, unless you're Thomas JEFFERSON.

also, you know Thomas, if your basis for believing al-queda and osama are responsible for 9/11 hinges on the quality of evidence you have presented thus far, i'm sure you are 100% aware that there is substaintially MORE evidence in a similar vein - i.e. heresay, and he said she said, to implicate none other than George W. Bush. i dont even need to attach links...just something to think about.

and the rest of your links are about al-queda and iraq - something i dont recall ever bringing up myself. screw a smoking gun, have you heard that some of the hijackers weren't EVEN IN THE COUNTRY? what do you make of that? they are alive and well - in pakistan and saudi arabia to this day, allegedly. transcripts of any cell phone calls from the airplanes? dont exist. but they did find atta's passport on the ground. why dont you address that convienent piece of evidence? huh? look, you cant even prove their were muslim hijackers on those planes. why not just admit it? it doesnt necessairly mean that there weren't. it just means you cant prove it using the wikipedia, or the web.

and you never addressed the fact that that post of things in Iraq had at least one blantant LIE in it - YOU sidestepped the issue by saying "I can't agree that he lied, because I don't know him or where he got his information from. I DO know that life for the average Iraqi is much better now than it has been for years." great, considering that was never the question you just did a wonderfully nice job of executing some fancy greek word for CHANGE THE SUBJECT.

and YOU did offer as evidence for the worst "terrorist attack" on u.s. soil in history an open source encyclopedia. keep posting. i'm reading now....and beleive me, i AM looking for evidence. but again khalid said osama did it is hardly irrefutable. especially when in the custody of the ISI. those guys make our sick, toruring troops look like alice in wonderland.

For all you American military Apologists, take a look at your "democracy and freedom" in action. Still Proud to be an American?

 http://www.albasrah.net/images/iraqi-pow/iraqi-pow

 http://www.empirenotes.org/april04.html

?

"but when questioned as to what HE has done to change things, he just babbles on somemore [sic] about baby killers and whatnot."

--YOU, "Wyatt" ARE SITTING ON YOUR FAT ASS, AS PER USUAL. WHAT ARE _____YOU_____ **DOING TO CHANGE** U.S. SOLDIER ATROCITIES IN SADDAM HUSSEIN'S OWN PRISON? OR PAUL BREMER'S RE-APPOINTMENT OF BA'ATHIST IRAQI GENERALS TO COMMAND THE FALLUJAH OCCUPATION?

***NEVER***, ***EVER***, DID I USE - OR HAVE I USED - THE TERM "baby killers": ***YOU*** DISINFORMATIONALLY INSINUATE IT HERE.

STILL AFRAID TO CONFRONT THE "whatnot" SPECIFIC REFERENCES AND SOURCES I PRESENTED?

I ALREADY SAID ABOVE - AND WILL HERE REPEAT:

BE A REAL PATRIOT.

PROTECT AND UPHOLD OUR CONSTITUTION AND BILL OF RIGHTS, WHICH IS BEING TRASHED BY USA PATRIOT. FIGHT TO REPEAL THE USA PATRIOT ACT
 http://www.repealnow.com/
 http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/repealUSAPA.html

REVEAL THE TRUTH ABOUT SEPTEMBER 11, 2001:

 http://www.gaianxaos.com/SpecialReports.htm
 http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/
 http://www.911truth.org/

Anomalies
 http://911research.wtc7.net/sept11/analysis/anomalies.html

Who Knew?
 http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/09/271217.shtml

Complete 9-11 Timeline
 http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/project.jsp?project=911_project

9-11 Limited Hang Out
 http://www.oilempire.us/limited.html

9-11 Stand Down
 http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/ELS305A.html

Sibel Edmonds, and why the U.S. looks like a nation of dupes
 http://homepage.mac.com/kaaawa/iblog/C2128262602/E130971977/index.html

WTC 7
 http://www.wtc7.net/index.html

Controlled collapse of Building 7
 http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc7.html
 http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc7collapse.html

Evidence of explosives in WTC towers collapse
 http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/07/268827.shtml
 http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/07/268821.shtml
 http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/04/286524.shtml

New York Firefighters Discuss Bombs in WTC Towers
 http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/03/284064.shtml

Operation Pearl
 http://www.serendipity.li/wot/operation_pearl.htm

9/11 Inquiry Chair Tied To Osama's Brother In Law
 http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/05/265386.shtml
 http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO212A.html
 http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0212/S00150.htm

From The Wilderness Publications
 http://www.copvcia.com/
 http://www.fromthewilderness.com/index.html

MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT 9/11 WAS AN INSIDE JOB
 http://www.voxfux.com/archives/00000076.htm

A Call to All True Patriots
 http://www.911sharethetruth.com/

ELECTRONIC VOTING MACHINES:

Diebold Voting Machine Controversy in Ohio
 http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/08/270902.shtml

Stop Bush From Stealing the 2004 Election
 http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/09/271049.shtml

Democracy Now! on Electronic Voting Machines
Russian dictator Joseph Stalin once said: "Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything."
 http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/09/271194.shtml

The Voting-Machine Industrial Complex
The voting machines are simply the final nail in the people's coffin. The comatose electorate rests silently as the hammer of authoritarianism falls.
 http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/09/271736.shtml

All the President's votes?
 http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/10/273302.shtml

Targeting Diebold with Electronic Civil Disobedience
 http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/10/273709.shtml

The Diebold Memos' Smoking Gun -
Volusia Co. Memos Disclose Election 2000 Vote Fraud
 http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/10/273791.shtml
 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles9/Thompson_Diebold-2000-Fraud.htm

Bev Harris on the Perils to Democracy by Electronic Voting
 http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/12/276007.shtml

Growing Movement Questions Integrity Of Electronic Voting
 http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/12/276081.shtml

Voting Machines Gone Wild!
 http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/12/276412.shtml

Death of a Patriot: No More 'Blind Faith Voting'
 http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/03/283303.shtml

Athan Gibbs dead, Diebold lives.

Another mysterious accident solves a Bush problem: the untimely Friday, March 12th death of perhaps America's most influential advocate of a verified voting paper trail in the era of touch screen computer voting. Gibbs, an accountant for more than 30 years and the inventor of the TruVote system, died when his vehicle collided with an 18-wheeled truck which rolled his Chevy Blazer several times and forced it over the highway retaining wall where it came to rest on its roof.

Coincidence theorists will simply dismiss the death of Gibbs as a tragic accident - the same conclusion these coincidence theorists came to when anti-nuclear activist Karen Silkwood died in November 1974 when her car struck a concrete embankment en route to a meeting with New York Times reporter David Burnham. Prominent independent investigators concluded that Silkwood's car was hit from behind and forced off the road. Silkwood was reportedly carrying documents that would expose illegal activities at the Kerr-McGee nuclear fuel plant. The FBI report found that she fell asleep at the wheel after overdosing on Quaaludes and that there never were any such files. A journalist secretly employed by the FBI, and a veteran of the Bureau's COINTELPRO operation against political activists, provided testimony for the FBI report.

Republicans Walk Out Of Federal Hearing On Voting Machines
 http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/04/285820.shtml

Lynn Landes on Electronic Voting
 http://www.ecotalk.org/VotingSecurity.htm

the Real Scoop on Diebold Computer Fraud
 http://dc.indymedia.org/newswire/display/78452

The Year Democracy Ended
 link to www.freepress.org

Theft of Presidency
 link to www.gregpalast.com

Verified Voting
 http://www.verifiedvoting.org/

250 Links to Voting Machine Fraud
 http://www.linkcrusader.com/vote_machines.htm

Black Box Voting - Ballot Tampering in the 21st Century
 http://www.blackboxvoting.com/

Patriot Act Being Used to Harrass BlackBoxVoting.org website
 http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/04/287080.shtml

THE PORTLAND INDYMEDIA SEARCH ENGINE IS A PERFECT PLACE TO START. ALL OF THE PORTLAND IMC LINKED ARTICLES ABOVE CONTAIN COMPLETE *ORIGINAL* SOURCE REFERENCES AND MANY OTHER EXTERNAL LINKS FOR YOU TO FULLY, INDEPENDENTLY CONFIRM AND VERIFY THE INFORMATION ON YOUR OWN.

DON'T COME BACK HERE WITH FURTHER COMMENTARY EITHER, UNTIL YOU'VE SPENT A FEW HOURS BROWSING, READING AND RESEARCHING.

YOU ARE A LAZY ASSHOLE "Wyatt" IF YOU CAN'T SEARCH THESE SOURCES OUT FOR YOURSELF, AS I ALREADY RECOMMENDED TO YOU ABOVE. I'M NOT YOUR MOTHER CLEANING YOUR DIAPERS, OR YOUR SOCIAL STUDIES TEACHER FROM MIDDLE SCHOOL. QUIT PONTIFICATING, GET OFF YOUR FAT ASS AND DO SOMETHING (if in fact you do care about any of this whatsoever).

By DAVE ZIRIN

When Pat Tillman walked away from the NFL to join the Army Rangers, rivulets of saliva flowed from the White House to the Defense Department. Here was the Arizona Cardinals' record setting safety turning his back on a $3.5 million contract to "fight the war on terror." Immediately Madison Avenue PR firms, hired by the Defense Department with our tax dollars, began churning out releases exalting "The American Athlete At War" replete with stories of Ted Williams's flying missions over the Pacific. The confederate confines of talk radio spoke of Tillman as "The "Real American Hero making "The Ultimate Sacrifice." One wonders if James Earl Jones had already been contracted to bleat, "Pat Tillman: An Army of One."

There was just one problem. Tillman wouldn't play their game. He turned down "hundreds if not thousands" of interviews and photo ops. He refused to be in any recruitment videos or on a single poster. Soon the story of "NFL player Pat Tillman in the Army Rangers" faded into the next news cycle. A year went by without a mention. No one tracked the day when his shoulder length hair was shaved to the scalp. No one snapped shots of his time in the "Army Ranger Indoctrination Program". No one knew about his first tour in Iraq. But last Friday in Afghanistan when Tillman was killed, the gears of the machine started to turn.

As Tillman's family and football fans grieved, the Bush War Machine and their cronies sprang into action. In death, a compliant Tillman could prove far more useful to the Masters of War than in life.

In "Dead Tillman", the Washington Establishment finally gets a dead soldier they can cozy up to.

"Where do we get such men as these? Where to we find these people willing to stand up for America?" asked Republican Rep. J.D. Hayworth, as he dived in front of the nearest camera. "He chose action rather than words. He was a remarkable person. He lived the American dream, and he fought to preserve the American dream and our way of life."

Sen. George Allen of Virginia, the son of the late Hall of Fame coach sent a letter to NFL Commissioner Paul Tagliabue asking the league to dedicate the season to Tillman and other U.S. soldiers ``serving in the war on terrorism.''

And of course Former Texas Rangers Owner George W. Bush jumped into the fray commenting that "Pat Tillman was an inspiration both on and off the football field".

At a time when the US's "coalition of the willing" is ditching Bush like he has plague and the Iraqi resistance mushrooms, "Dead Tillman" has been treated at 1600 Pennsylvania like Christmas in April. The former 7th round draft pick will be their symbol, as the White House commented, of "all we are fighting for."

Yet Pat Tillman is in no way the typical face of the dead U.S. soldier. In fact, like so much of Bush's global conquest, this is a bloody lie. The face of the dead U.S. soldier is not a 27 year old man walking away from millions of dollars to make "the ultimate sacrifice" The dead soldier is far more likely to be in Iraq or Afghanistan beyond their tour of duty. The dead soldier, chances are, was suffering from depression and crushingly low morale in the days before their death. The dead soldier was making $18,000 dollar a year and possibly living on food stamps. There is a 35% chance the dead soldier is black or Latino. While one NFL millionaire served in "Operation Enduring Occupation" there are 37,000 non-citizens occupying Iraq alone to benefit from a new program that allows immigrants to apply for citizenship immediately and not wait the usual 5 years. Maybe the dead soldier was recruited in the US Army's new number one recruitment spot: Tijuana, Mexico.

The true face of the dead US soldier, and the growing anger of their families, is why Commander in Chief Bush has boycotted all of their funerals. It is why photos of flag-draped coffins had to be smuggled out. It is why the workers who took those photos have been fired.

With Tillman, Bush is hoping to do what his train wreck of a press conference failed to do: shore up support for his Middle Eastern slaughter. But not everyone is taking the bait. In fact by "humanizing" the death of a popular ex-football player Bush could be running right into some hardcore necessary roughness.

Sports fans and scribes aren't the mindless patriots that the White House, and much of the left, believes. The public parade of "Dead Tillman" can breed a variety of reactions. Nationally renowned - and ceaselessly apolitical - sports columnist Mike Lupica wrote, "Pat Tillman got to live out his professional dreams for a little while. What about all the ones dying over there who didn't?" The ESPN show the Sports Reporters show commented, "The White House has no right to say anything about the death of Tillman since it doesn't want to show pictures of the dead. They can't have it both ways."

In fact, on what is possibly the most frat boy drenched Sports Radio show, "The Jungle With Jim Rome" one caller identified himself as an ex-soldier from Arizona and said, "The President needs to take a long look in the mirror and try to figure out if this is worth it." He then paused and said, "War to no one. Fight for peace."

Pat Tillman played football with a relentless intensity. Wait for the look on Bush's face when the folks who cheered for Pat, fight with that same intensity against the war that took his life.

---

Dave Zirin is the News Editor of the Prince George's Post in Prince George's County, Maryland. His sports writing can be read at www.edgeofsports.com. He can be reached at  editor@pgpost.com

All this rhetoric about how Pat Tillman was a Great American Hero because he gave up his football career to wage war in Afghanistan is nothing more than the usual Patriotic American bullshit. Pat Tillman was not a hero. Tillman was an American Imperialist Stormtrooper. Period.

Like most American patriots (pro-War or anti-War), Tillman was a brainwashed jackass because he believed in all the lies about American Goodness and Benevolence (TM).

No better example of this is his participation in the phony War on Terrorism itself. Like most fascist American patriots, Tillman believed he was "fighting terrorists" in Afghanistan when in fact the USA has covertly sponsored and supported various Al-Queda connected groups throughout the world (such as in the Balkans) and Afghanistan for the past several decades at least.

Obviously, the USA did not invade Afghanistan to "fight terrorists." The USA invaded Afghanstian for the same fundamental reason that it invaded Iraq--to expand American domination over the rest of the world in general and to colonize an important geostrategic region of the world (with energy resources) in particular.

To hell with American Patriotism--of any kind.

American Patriotism is American Imperialism--no matter what political mask you try to hide it behind, whether that be Liberal or Conservative, Democrat or Republican, Green Party or Libertarian.

Read the following link to find out what the American Empire really stands for and what America's true agenda is really driven by.

I truly wonder about the kinds of people who frequent this website. Admittedly, I am a first (and last) time visitor and I spent about an hour reading the various opinions espoused here. The only conclusion I can come up with is that the majority of your "writers" are absolutely nuts. Where do you people come from? Who were your parents? Are they proud? Do you not realize that without the sacrifices of people like Mr. Tillman you would have little, if any, opportunity to make ANY political statements?

You certainly may disagree with current foreign policy, but your hateful venom spewed at those men and women fighting for your country is truly repulsive, as is your inexcusable disdane for others who might disagree with YOU!

I also find it a bit ironical that for the last 50 years, those on the Left seem to want to claim the moral high ground. Do you not realize that the worst dictators, tyrants, murderers, and human rights abusers of the last century all came from the Left? They were all good socialists! Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Castro, Pol Pot, Etc... Even Hitler was a good left-leaning socialist (the Nazis were, after all the National SOCIALIST Party). The policies you all promote have led to the deaths of MILLIONS. Yet you call American soldiers "baby-killers", "Nazis" and the like. You CLAIM to be in favor of women's rights, yet you vehemently oppose freeing Afgani women from the Taliban. You hate "police state tactics", yet you ignore the people who are no longer subjected to Saddam's rape rooms and children's prisons. WHO ARE YOU PEOPLE? You are hypocrites, scumbags, Berkeley grads and the like. You are not Americans at all. You are truly repulsive!

"the worst dictators, tyrants, murderers, and human rights abusers of the last century all came from the Left"

Do the research. Find out which leaders really killed the most number of people and what their beliefs were (note, these beliefs may contradict the name of the party with which they were affiliated; as Shakespeare noted about a rose by any other name...)

"I truly wonder about the kinds of people who frequent this website. Admittedly, I am a first (and last) time visitor and I spent about an hour reading the various opinions espoused here. The only conclusion I can come up with is that the majority of your "writers" are absolutely nuts."

--well "Ryan H" YOU are Indymedia by definition, and congratulations on becoming a part of the collective with your comment. the Indymedia sites are not provided as "opinion blogs", but rather for the passionate, accurate telling of truth which is not represented in mainstream corporate sources.

"Where do you people come from? Who were your parents? Are they proud? Do you not realize that without the sacrifices of people like Mr. Tillman you would have little, if any, opportunity to make ANY political statements?"

--as clearly explained and referenced above, although Pat Tillman may have joined the Army Rangers for some "higher" goal, he certainly did not die for one. The U.S. campaigns in Iraq and Afghanistan are not providing anyone - least of all Americans - with "freedom". if Pat Tillman "sacrificed" himself for anything in Afghanistan, it was for the reinstatement of pre-Taliban opium trading levels. John Ashcroft and others in the current administration are working hard day-by-day to silence our freedom of speech (as they have been since the passage of the original USA Patriot act in the days following 9-11), the "free speech zone" barriers erected around President Bush everywhere he travels in his own country, and many other threats to our Constitution and Bill of Rights. Camp X-Ray is yet another example of degrading rights and freedoms in the American sphere.

"You certainly may disagree with current foreign policy, but your hateful venom spewed at those men and women fighting for your country is truly repulsive, as is your inexcusable disdane [sic] for others who might disagree with YOU! I also find it a bit ironical [sic] that for the last 50 years, those on the Left seem to want to claim the moral high ground."

--your mistake is to assume that people frequenting and using the Indymedia sites are "Left" or "right" in political leanings. The Indymedia network is dedicated to passionate tellings of truth in the grassroots movement for social change. Anyone, from any viewpoint, is welcome to be part of publishing media here, if it is not being widely represented elswhere in corporate or mainstream sources. as for the grassroots activists who use this site, the "moral high ground" is not a conscious goal, but exposing the truth is.

There are many U.S. veterans and their families who frequent the Indymedia sites, and a lot of them are directly referenced in comments already made above. all of them are anti-imperialism and anti-war as a result of their military experiences. More of these anti-war veterans will be coming home from Iraq and Afghanistan with each passing day. concerning the history of U.S. foreign policy and its genocidal impact, you might begin here  http://kosovo99.tripod.com/us2.htm Most deadly dictators of the post-WWII era have been CIA-trained U.S. clients (Hussein, Noriega, etc.) the current petroleum family occupier of the White House is the son of a former CIA director.

"Do you not realize that the worst dictators, tyrants, murderers, and human rights abusers of the last century all came from the Left? They were all good socialists! Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Castro, Pol Pot, Etc... Even Hitler was a good left-leaning socialist (the Nazis were, after all the National SOCIALIST Party). The policies you all promote have led to the deaths of MILLIONS."

--fallacious statement based on fallacious reasoning. what you've listed and claimed is wrong about socialism. those people and regimes are COMMUNISTS, and that is a big difference. I'll let others much better versed in the distinction explain it to you (or you can go to the library / search the internet and educate yourself). the Nazi party of post-WWI Germany was socialist in name only at its outset, and in the context of an extremely unusual political and economic juncture in time for that nation. Fascism - what Hitler's and Mussolini's regimes espoused - was the merger of state and corporate power (similar to what exists in today's U.S. executive branch). (a final note about Pol Pot, since you brought him up - he came to power as a direct result of the 1971 Nixon/Kissinger invasion of Cambodia.)

a perfect example of anarchist-socialist activism right here in your own community would be Food Not Bombs, who redistribute unused and donated (primarily vegetarian) food from farms and restaurants to needy people in many urban areas nationwide.

"Yet you call American soldiers "baby-killers", "Nazis" and the like. You CLAIM to be in favor of women's rights, yet you vehemently oppose freeing Afgani women from the Taliban. You hate "police state tactics", yet you ignore the people who are no longer subjected to Saddam's rape rooms and children's prisons."

--Afghan women are worse off now  link to portland.indymedia.org have worked on women's rights there and elsewhere for decades. Furthermore, the U.S. occupation has excluded major groups working for women there
 http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2001/11/102235.shtml and also banned women's marches
 http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2001/11/5006.shtml

U.S. soldiers have used Saddam Hussein's biggest torture prison to sexually abuse  http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/04/287167.shtml Iraqis. how far have we come, and where are we headed?

"WHO ARE YOU PEOPLE? You are hypocrites, scumbags, Berkeley grads and the like. You are not Americans at all. You are truly repulsive!

--now you're the one sounding like a Brownshirt with swastika armband, "Ryan H" -

try learning more, and cutting out the intolerance, hatred, name-calling and other fear-based responses.

in response to the comments (specifically "saving private Ryan H") about my first posting "repulsive" on May 2

Let's have a sense of proportion and reality here.

I agree (and am sad) that I am now a part of this indymedia website. You are right, anyone can be a part of this website. However, note that I said "most of the writers" are nuts. I apologize for including those of you who rightly admonish the crazies that make up the majority of this site. This site is far from finding the truth. It seems as though you would rather explain away the ills of the world as some CIA plot than give any real thought. Give me a break. The REAL world (you should visit it some time) is not the plot of some B-list movie, no matter what you can find on the internet (or are taught by your Marxist college professor). To illustrate how much false information is out there, you should try visiting some websites that claim the Holocaust never happened, which is obviously untrue. (As an aside, the Holocaust would have been complete if it were not for the SACRIFICES made by US servicemen, but that is not the point).


Now for the personal sacrifice of Pat Tillman. He did join the Army Rangers for a lofty goal. That goal was to preserve our freedom and ensure the freedom of others. And simply because Afganistan was not a power that was capable of occupying the U.S. does not diminish his role in protecting the U.S. America must project her power and face enemies beyond her borders so that we do not have to face them here. Do you remember September 11th? I haven't seen many terrorist attacks lately. Why? Because they are all dead (with their 72 virgins thankfully) or running for their lives. Bush took the fight out of New York and took it to Afganistan and Iraq. If America (BUSH) had not done so, they would have invited further attacks (thank God for the butterfly ballot). Can you imagine the a**-f***ing we would have taken if Gore had been in charge? I shudder to think. As a reminder for all you appeasers out there, remember the Sudentenland, Austria, the remilitarization of the Rhine, etc.. that led to WWII. All of that could have been stopped if the people of Britain, France, etc... had put a stop to Hitler earlier rather than later. Oh, how we forget Prime Minister Chamberlain and the 60 MILLION deaths that followed, courtesy of Hitler. Pre-emptive action, overwhelming force must be brought to bear before that happens again. Only this time, it will be a nuclear device (hopefully in Berkeley) that will be the consequence if we fail. If you can't find the stones to be in support of what has to be done, then at least be silent. The stakes are too high. Islamofascists cannot be bargained or bartered with. They are like Nazis. They are crazy and they want us dead (or they want sharia law, which is worse).

The next item that I would like to address is that you feel that this site is equally represented on both the "left" and the "right". This is laughable at best. Obviously, this is a vehemently leftist site, or is at least dominated by such views. Visitors need only to read the nutty theories or see the caricatures of Bush to see that.

My next point is an important one. You state that the names of Stalin, Lenin, Castro, Pol Pot, Mao are simply Communists, not Socialists. I woud argue that the two are one in the same. I seem to remember that is was the Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republics (USSR or the Soviet Union for those of you at Berkeley). Whether the wolf's clothing is communist or socialist, it is the same thing. And don't give me this nonsense about Europe being socialist. If you have a stock exchange, you are capitalist, regardless of your healthcare plan. Hitler was indeed a Fascist, as you note. This is probably the most extreme form of socialism, even more than communism. He was defeated, through the deaths of half-a-million U.S. men, not to mention others. So don't worry, you still have Stalin to rally around. Good ole Uncle Joe! Just a reminder to all you "true believers" out there: don't try to convert too many capitalists, there still has to be someone around to pay your bills, as I'm convinced that most of you are just the children of affluent, white parents. If you are not, I am sorry. So you can spare me the sad trailer park stories (I was born in one too, as I'm sure you will ridicule, you loving, tolerant people). And by the way, it doesn't matter how Pol Pot came to power (you mentioned Nixon/Kissinger). He was still a socialist (or whatever you call him).

Your next point was to direct me to an inane site that suggested that Afgan women are worse off now. This is ludicrous. They can now attend school, be in any profession, etc... Just because there are some abuses that still exist are all the more reason why we should be there in the first place. I am sure that your author would have found a lot more evidence (if he cared) of women's rights abuses in Taliban controlled Afganistan. This is a dumb point. Stop, please.

As for your last talking point, you try to insinuate that I am a brownshirt Nazi. This is silly. It is obvius that I hold Berkeley and others in disdain. Why wouldn't I? Your actions are HARMFUL, not only to this nation, but the people of the world that would benefit from the U.S.'s help. Everything you do, everthing you say, everything you print is to preserve the world status quo (poverty, oppression, misery, inequality, etc). I feel sorry for you. I really do. I don't think that is what you want. You are probably not too bad of a person. You simply are misguided (and I am talking to all of you who lambast Pat Tillman). An author (I'm sorry, I don't know who he is) once said that "The road to hell is paved in good intentions". This is where you are leading this nation, this world. You cannot argue that the people of Iraq are not better off without Saddam. You cannot argue that the Russians (as well as us) are better off without Stalin. Yet you oppose those who would bring them down. It is an ugly world in which we live. Sometimes, it takes a war to try to make things better. That is sad, for war is a terrible thing. But if WE cannot face reality, if WE cannot bring ourselves to do what is right, what have we done, other than waste our time in front of a computer? I was wrong to suggest that those who disagree with me are not "true Americans". However, I am as passionate as you on what needs to be done to protect our freedoms. I am as passionate as you on my caring for the welfare of the rest of the world. But these things MUST be done. I urge you ALL to take a step back, look at reality, and make the right decision on where YOU stand. It is a lot different talking about theories and such on the internet. There is a real world out there, and not everybody is as high-minded as you. I am not saying that you have to support Bush's "War on Terror". I am not saying that you have to be in favor of war in Iraq. But what I am saying is that you should not forget that there are those, like Pat Tillman, who believe in the same ideals as you. He died. We get to sit here talking about it. Please do not dishonor him by your hatred. I do not hate you. I hope that you do not hate me. Please do not hate Pat Tillman. He died for what he believes. What more can a man do?

Like our Founding Fathers, Pat Tillman pledged his life, his fortune and his sacred honor. May a kind Providence grant him eternal peace.

"Let's have a sense of proportion and reality here."

--"repulsive"?!? what kind of "proportion and reality" is that? is torture by U.S. troops of Iraqis in Hussein's own prison enough "proportion and reality" for you? after a full year of military occupation, the U.S. now has a full-scale uprising against them in Iraq. when will YOU obtain a sense of "proportion and reality", "Ryan H"? how many Americans/British  link to lunaville.org must sacrifice their lives - before it is enough for your "proportion and reality"?

"I agree (and am sad) that I am now a part of this indymedia website. You are right, anyone can be a part of this website."

--why are you "sad"? you should be HAPPY that you are participating in open publishing of your ideas, and a free-speech debate. None of these kinds of exchanges or information will be found in corporate mainstream print / airwaves, or even on most internet sites.

"However, note that I said "most of the writers" are nuts. I apologize for including those of you who rightly admonish the crazies that make up the majority of this site. This site is far from finding the truth. It seems as though you would rather explain away the ills of the world as some CIA plot than give any real thought."

--if to you the references and writing on this site boils down to "some CIA plot" then YOU are the one who has a lot to learn - about the references and articles presented here, and your own insufficient attitudes. There are many aspects of the CIA that have a detrimental influence on US foreign policy. On the other hand, many former CIA employees have come to speak out on issues such as the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, with an anti-war stance. You should closely investigate all information presented and draw your own conclusions.

"Give me a break. The REAL world (you should visit it some time) is not the plot of some B-list movie, no matter what you can find on the internet (or are taught by your Marxist college professor)."

--don't know who or what you're talking about, but I personally never had a "Marxist college professor". as far as "the REAL world" - as already mentioned several times above, there are many Returning Veterans of the Iraq and Afghanistan campaigns who are speaking out about the falsity of this "war on terror". And you "Ryan H" should get out and VISIT the "REAL world" - have you ever been to another country, for instance (not as a US military/diplomatic/vacation visitor, but as a resident longer than 3 weeks)?

"To illustrate how much false information is out there, you should try visiting some websites that claim the Holocaust never happened, which is obviously untrue. (As an aside, the Holocaust would have been complete if it were not for the SACRIFICES made by US servicemen, but that is not the point)."

--there is a lot of "false information" EVERYWHERE, not just on the internet. That is why a thing called REFERENCES exists, so that you - the individual reader - can verify it. And U.S. soldiers returning from Iraq and Afghanistan with an anti-war message have references already provided above.

"Now for the personal sacrifice of Pat Tillman. He did join the Army Rangers for a lofty goal. That goal was to preserve our freedom and ensure the freedom of others. And simply because Afganistan was not a power that was capable of occupying the U.S. does not diminish his role in protecting the U.S. America must project her power and face enemies beyond her borders so that we do not have to face them here."

--Afghanistan was never a national security threat to the U.S. The Taliban have returned. Hamid Karzai (a former oil corporation lobbyist) can not leave his house in Kabul without a dozen mercenary guards surrounding him. Afghanistan is politically in the same or worse stability it was before the U.S. invasion. Economically, the opium crop and trade has been restored to pre-Taliban levels.

"Do you remember September 11th? I haven't seen many terrorist attacks lately. Why? Because they are all dead (with their 72 virgins thankfully) or running for their lives. Bush took the fight out of New York and took it to Afganistan and Iraq. If America (BUSH) had not done so, they would have invited further attacks (thank God for the butterfly ballot). Can you imagine the a**-f***ing we would have taken if Gore had been in charge? I shudder to think."

--Gore is irrelevant. U.S. budget deficit is $500 billion. you should investigate what really happened on September 11th (scroll up and click on the '9-11 investigation' button on the column to your left - it reveals all the current articles on this site about 9-11). The Bush administration used that event to push through pre-packaged domestic legislation (USA Patriot) and foreign policy (Iraq invasion planned mid-1990s by PNAC). Where is the fight now? The U.S. is about to be militarily routed in Iraq - Spain has drawn up plans for U.S. troop withdrawal. Afghanistan - see above.

"As a reminder for all you appeasers out there, remember the Sudentenland, Austria, the remilitarization of the Rhine, etc.. that led to WWII. All of that could have been stopped if the people of Britain, France, etc... had put a stop to Hitler earlier rather than later. Oh, how we forget Prime Minister Chamberlain and the 60 MILLION deaths that followed, courtesy of Hitler. Pre-emptive action, overwhelming force must be brought to bear before that happens again. Only this time, it will be a nuclear device (hopefully in Berkeley) that will be the consequence if we fail. If you can't find the stones to be in support of what has to be done, then at least be silent. The stakes are too high. Islamofascists cannot be bargained or bartered with. They are like Nazis. They are crazy and they want us dead (or they want sharia law, which is worse)."

--why do you say "nuclear device (hopefully in Berkeley)"?!? ARE YOU INSANE, advocating such violence? are you harboring secret psychological terror wishes? you need to have your head examined "Ryan H" . . . at the very least, the above statements are paranoid.

"Islamofascists"?!? what on earth would that mean? Islamists don't have multinational corporations on their side - if anything, that's who they oppose. Fascism is - by definition - the merger of state and corporate power. like what we have in the White House cabinet right now.

you really need to evolve beyond your juvenile, talk radio cliche-based "political reasoning" "Ryan H".

"The next item that I would like to address is that you feel that this site is equally represented on both the "left" and the "right". This is laughable at best. Obviously, this is a vehemently leftist site, or is at least dominated by such views. Visitors need only to read the nutty theories or see the caricatures of Bush to see that."

--Indymedia - as already explained above - is for passionate telling of truth by grassroots activists. You need to create your impression / opinion based upon reading all of the stories and features, not just your own jaundiced, caricatured view of what the "left" supposedly is. many libertarian and even right-wing militia people use and read this site regularly, for coverage of events that are otherwise completely excluded from corporate mass media.

"My next point is an important one. You state that the names of Stalin, Lenin, Castro, Pol Pot, Mao are simply Communists, not Socialists. I woud argue that the two are one in the same. I seem to remember that is was the Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republics (USSR or the Soviet Union for those of you at Berkeley). Whether the wolf's clothing is communist or socialist, it is the same thing. And don't give me this nonsense about Europe being socialist. If you have a stock exchange, you are capitalist, regardless of your healthcare plan. Hitler was indeed a Fascist, as you note. This is probably the most extreme form of socialism, even more than communism. He was defeated, through the deaths of half-a-million U.S. men, not to mention others. So don't worry, you still have Stalin to rally around. Good ole Uncle Joe!"

--"Ryan H", you are tilting at windmills with political terminology. Obsessed with "left/right", "Socialist/Communist/Fascist", you can not see what is occurring in today's world. The policy of national governments is today determined by corporate capitalist power elites, who pass through revolving door between the corporations/government - it is Fascism for the modern, globalist age.

"And by the way, it doesn't matter how Pol Pot came to power (you mentioned Nixon/Kissinger). He was still a socialist (or whatever you call him)."

--"it doesn't matter" how he came to power?!? so it doesn't matter that Saddam Hussein was trained and installed by the CIA? same with Manuel Noriega? etc. It "doesn't matter" how Adolf Hitler came to power? you are living in a dreamworld far from reality "Ryan H" if this passes for "reasoning" in your mind. Pol Pot was a Stalinist Communist dictator. his regime was not true socialism.

"Just a reminder to all you "true believers" out there: don't try to convert too many capitalists, there still has to be someone around to pay your bills, as I'm convinced that most of you are just the children of affluent, white parents. If you are not, I am sorry. So you can spare me the sad trailer park stories (I was born in one too, as I'm sure you will ridicule, you loving, tolerant people)."

--peace, justice, and social change activists are from all kinds of different backgrounds. not being able to pay bills, for example, is one reason why people become labor or social justice activists, to help improve their own situation. As mentioned above: don't stereotype (e.g. your term "trailer park") so much.

"Your next point was to direct me to an inane site that suggested that Afgan women are worse off now. This is ludicrous. They can now attend school, be in any profession, etc... Just because there are some abuses that still exist are all the more reason why we should be there in the first place. I am sure that your author would have found a lot more evidence (if he cared) of women's rights abuses in Taliban controlled Afganistan. This is a dumb point. Stop, please."

--it is not an "inane site", but rather an article from THE NEW YORK TIMES. you are quite obviously not reading or paying attention to evidence. Afghan women are worse off than before the U.S. illegal invasion. The other conditions in Afghanistan are described above. If you are concerned about women's rights in Afghanistan - or anywhere else in the world, including your own country - you've already been informed above about Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International. Get involved instead of pontificating like a talk-radio host. AND *READ* THE REFERENCES before making such off-the-cuff remarks.

"As for your last talking point, you try to insinuate that I am a brownshirt Nazi. This is silly."

--I admit the insinuation was a little silly, but you had asked for it by calling us:
"hypocrites, scumbags, Berkeley grads and the like[????? what did you mean by "the like"?????]. You are not Americans at all. You are truly repulsive!"

this was an intolerant, hate-filled, name-calling, fear-based response. Hopefully someday, you will evolve beyond this.

"It is obvius [sic] that I hold Berkeley and others in disdain. Why wouldn't I? Your actions are HARMFUL, not only to this nation, but the people of the world that would benefit from the U.S.'s help. Everything you do, everthing you say, everything you print is to preserve the world status quo (poverty, oppression, misery, inequality, etc)."

--here you are 100% wrong. how are the direct actions of - simply to choose one example - Food Not Bombs, who redistribute unused and donated food on a daily basis to poor and homeless people in urban areas, "harmful"? you need to READ and UNDERSTAND what people using Indymedia ACTUALLY DO. Open your mind and heart. attend some of the demonstrations (or perhaps, a Food Not Bombs meal). Get to know some people in the peace and justice movements, instead of your armchair-quarterback talk-radio opinionated, baseless ranting. By the way: WAR is the prime producer of 'poverty, oppression, misery, and inequality'.

"I feel sorry for you. I really do. I don't think that is what you want. You are probably not too bad of a person. You simply are misguided (and I am talking to all of you who lambast Pat Tillman). An author (I'm sorry, I don't know who he is) once said that "The road to hell is paved in good intentions". This is where you are leading this nation, this world."

--don't know what on earth you're blathering about here. As mentioned above: try getting out of the house - out from behind the TV and computer - more. Meet some people, in the street, and in your community. Hey maybe even VISIT ANOTHER COUNTRY and live there for a while. Try basing your perceptions and views upon real experiences, instead of hysterical invective and programmed stereotypes.

nobody is "lambasting" Pat Tillman. perhaps the most unfortunate thing is that his name is being seized by the U.S. government and some corporate mass media as a propoganda tool to promote false "heroism". He is no different from any other unfortunate military enlistee dying in these illegal conflicts, let alone the many more innocent Iraqis and Afghanis who have died needlessly.

"You cannot argue that the people of Iraq are not better off without Saddam."

--who here has argued that? and even if it were to be so argued, the "argument" would need to be made by a citizen of Iraq, not us. Since the U.S. has been militarily ejected from Fallujah, Najaf, and elsewhere, I'd say there are a fair number of Iraq citizens who agree. U.S. soldiers have been torturing Iraqis in Saddam's prison, and the citizens of Iraq are outraged about this. U.S. military occupation is certainly not making them any happier.

"You cannot argue that the Russians (as well as us) are better off without Stalin. Yet you oppose those who would bring them down. It is an ugly world in which we live. Sometimes, it takes a war to try to make things better. That is sad, for war is a terrible thing. But if WE cannot face reality, if WE cannot bring ourselves to do what is right, what have we done, other than waste our time in front of a computer? I was wrong to suggest that those who disagree with me are not "true Americans". However, I am as passionate as you on what needs to be done to protect our freedoms. I am as passionate as you on my caring for the welfare of the rest of the world. But these things MUST be done. I urge you ALL to take a step back, look at reality, and make the right decision on where YOU stand. It is a lot different talking about theories and such on the internet."

--Indymedia is sometimes about 'theory', but if you pay attention you'll find that this website is mostly about direct action and the everday experience and achievements of activists for peace, justice and social change. These activists are YOUR NEIGHBORS and members of your community, many of whom are Military Veterans of Iraq and other conflicts. They are doing and accomplishing very concrete, measurable things right here, and right now, where you live. to adopt an attitude towards the users and readers of this site such as: "oh this is *that site over there* where all *those* crazy people go" is a self-delusional mentality. See my above comment about "wasting time in front of the computer". and as discussed above, "Ryan H" - you are already part of Indymedia!!

War never "makes things better", it only depletes and destroys our people and civilization. Many war veterans can and will tell you this, and much more - don't take it from me. Research and learn from sources provided on Indymedia and elsewhere.

"There is a real world out there, and not everybody is as high-minded as you."

--are you self-deprecatingly implying that somehow you are "low-minded"? why not just see reality for what it is? the "war on terror" can never work. It is not just peace and justice activists who say this. Many Veterans of the current Iraq/Afghanistan wars, U.S. intelligence and government agencies, and other well-qualified professional soldiers, diplomats and spies all say that the "war on terror" is an expensive and deadly sham.

"I am not saying that you have to support Bush's "War on Terror". I am not saying that you have to be in favor of war in Iraq. But what I am saying is that you should not forget that there are those, like Pat Tillman, who believe in the same ideals as you. He died. We get to sit here talking about it."

--it's already been explained above many times over, by many different sources, why Pat Tillman's sacrifice has been in vain.

"Please do not dishonor him by your hatred. I do not hate you. I hope that you do not hate me. Please do not hate Pat Tillman. He died for what he believes. What more can a man do?"

--you, "Ryan H" are blinded by the language and atmosphere of hate, which you yourself invoke. What about the current Iraq military occupation is *NOT* motivated by hatred and misunderstanding? The U.S. needs to withdraw its military forces from Iraq immediately. It is not just one country, one person, or one group of people who say this. Now, even members of the U.S. government and military are saying so.

It is obvious that many people posting here bathe in their own rhetorical rants far too often. Don't dismiss, as invalid, an opposing point of view. Keep your minds open!

Hugs and Kisses

gbj

Do you people (you know who you are) realize that if heroes like Pat Tillman and others like him weren't serving this great nation this website wouldn't be possible. There would be no free press or free speach or free anything. You say anything you want and demand that you be heard or scream that your rights have been violated. Have you forgotten what a ruthless, murdering ruler Saddam was or what Bin Laden is responsible for. Remember the Hollywood war bashers and Bush bashers that were going to leave the country, where are they now? Yeah that's right their still in Hollywood earning millions and being protected by this great nation. What I say to them I say to you Love it or Leave it. GET OUT!!! God Bless America.

where's the documented evidence?

DOCUMENTED: bin Laden and Hussein were each trained and funded by the CIA.

the current occupant of the White House is the son of a former CIA director who met with bin Laden's brother on 9-11  link to www.propagandamatrix.com, and one of his former Saudi Arabian oil companies was Arbusto Energy, shares partly owned by the bin Laden family.

the Bush family has close ties with the bin Ladens  http://tvnewslies.org/html/bin_laden_ties.html, as does the current 9-11 investigative commission chairman Thomas Kean.
 http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/05/265386.shtml
 http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0212/S00150.htm
 http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO212A.html

Tillman was no hero, he didn't believe in G_d, he joined the army because he took pleasure in KILLING PEOPLE. He's not only f*king dead, he's also being "f*cked by the demons of hell" (figuravely speaking).

It's tools of Satan like him who corrupt other young men and women into doing horrible Satanic acts. I've no doubts that the perpetrators of the Abu Ghuraib atrocities were also atheists like him.

DEATH TO ALL ATHEIST SCUMBAGS

I do not care about the reason for this "war", since the reasons are those of politicians I do not respect, but I do care about the Ignorant Statements about Pat Tillman. For those who described him as a "dumb jock", I'm sure you know he graduated Summa Cum Laude with a B.S. in marketing in just 3 1/2 years, maintained a 3.8 gpa, and even returned to college after being selected in the NFL draft for his Master's degree in History. His intense focus and sheer determination led him to three consecutive selections to the Pac-10 All-Academic Football Team, a 1st team Academic All-American honor, as well as the NCAA's Post-Graduate Scholarship for academic and athletic excellence. During his years as a Cardinal, Pat volunteered with the Boys and Girls Club of Arizona, Boys Hope Girls Hope and March of Dimes, and went to elementary, middle and high schools around the Phoenix valley to read to kids and give talks. This man did not want your accolades, honors, respect, or anything else from you and I admire him much more for these qualities he had. He was definitely not a "typical athlete" who shunned the FOX news (& all media).
I wish you would give him enough respect, much less than he would give any of you in return, to let him believe what he wants and fight for whatever he believes in. As a former college athlete & grad, I know how players are nursed and placed on a pedastal only because they are blessed by God (or wherever you believe our physical strengths come from). Most are never truely educated, never have to work a real job (although most work harder on their game in one week than you will in your life), they are looked upon as idols, and I know all of this and much more. But, this is not the discussion at hand! Nor, is the dicussion WMD, Saddam, Osama, Rush, Kerry, Bush, or anything else but the UNFORTUNATE LOSS OF PAT TILLMAN'S LIFE & PURSUIT OF A BETTER LIFE! I know this is impossible for most of you to imagine, but this man derived his beliefs without TV (as a child he did not have one) and our shameful media brainwahing him into believing anything! He came to his beliefs from many teachers and professors, along with many other individuals, who had many different backgrounds, beliefs, views, and qualities they wanted to teach or tell others. He is wrong for wanting people in other countries to be able to form their own opinions?
All I wish to state is we should not be so quick to elevate, or degrade, people and their beliefs. We should try to keep an open mind to different opinions and NEVER disregard people, or their views, only because we do not understand them. PAT TILLMAN WAS AN EXCEPTIONAL PERSON (IN EVERY DEFINITION) AND IS A HERO. It is fine to not agree with me, but do not disrepect him, or his family, by defaming his character. One thing he said that I want to quote is words from an interview the day after the attacks of September 11th, 2001, "At times like this you stop and think about just how good we have it, what kind of system we live in, and the freedoms we are allowed. A lot of my family has gone and fought in wars and I really haven't done a damn thing". I couldn't have told you in a better way!

THANK YOU PAT TILLMAN, NOT ONLY FOR YOU SACRIFICING YOUR LIFE, BUT ALSO YOUR EXAMPLE!

Is the picture shown supposed to be a picture of Tillman on the battle field or is this picture of another solider who was injuried?

Tried to leave a note but not sure it took. There is a picture of a wounded soldier posted with the comment on Tillman, is that picture supposed to be of Tillman wounded on the battle field?