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But what does the bible say?

but what does the bible say?
This was a letter to the editor in this week's Portland Mercury. So awesome....

 http://www.portlandmercury.com/current/letters.html

BUT WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY?

A. Marriage shall consist of a union between one man and one or more women. (Gen 29:17-28; II Sam 3:2-5)

B. Marriage shall not impede a man's right to take concubines in addition to his wife or wives. (II Sam 5:13; I Kings 11:3; II Chron 11:21)

C. A marriage shall be considered valid only if the wife is a virgin. If the wife is not a virgin, she shall be executed. (Deut 22:13-21)

D. Since marriage is for life, no government or law shall be able to permit divorce. (Deut 22:19; Mark 10:9)

E. If a married man dies without children, his brother shall marry the widow. If he refuses to marry his brother's widow or deliberately does not give her children, he shall pay a fine of one shoe and be otherwise punished in a manner to be determined by law. (Gen. 38:6-10; Deut 25:5-10)

F. In lieu of marriage, if there are no acceptable men in your town, it is required that you get your dad drunk and have sex with him (even if he had previously offered you up as a sex toy to men young and old), tag-teaming with any sisters you may have. Of course, this rule applies only if you are female. (Gen 19:31-36)

Tom Trottier
Not So Fast 27.Feb.2004 13:50

dances with "holy words"

On my shelf are well read copies of the books of many faiths. A quick check of my "New American Standard" reference bible shows that none of the above appears in the my version of the bible. Your post makes the appearance that these are direct quote from the bible. they at best loosely describe a story being told. There are, in my opinion grossly out of context and very misleading.

With that said, I would like to say that I am against this proposal by this so called president. The bible thumpers (thible bumpers) can be beaten at their own game, but misquoting a book to a group that has it memorized is not the way to go about it.

Wording and context 27.Feb.2004 14:00

*

I likewise appreciate this much-needed reality check on just how much the Bible should dictate our behavior. I would be interested in getting the word for word biblical versions of these quotes, what stories they appear in, or whether some of these are implied as the moral to certain stories. As an ancient and much-interpreted text, the Bible can easily become a tool of those against the reign of the radical right which, in my humble opinion is doing just about anything BUT living the life dictated by Jesus' teachings.

"New American Standard" edition ? 27.Feb.2004 14:17

glen

Well what kind of mutilated translation -- not to mention omissions -- would you expect ?

Curious 27.Feb.2004 14:17

CG

What are the advantages of marriage over civil union if any? Disadvantages? I know that marriage can be pretty tough to get out of sometimes and the palimony etc.

for example 27.Feb.2004 14:45

anon

"And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father . . . and the younger arose, and lay with him . . . Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father" (Genesis 19:33-36)

You can probably find an online bible with no sweat, or if you're a bad little kid over the age of 18, you can visit www.landoverbaptist.org. It's filled with delightful quotes from the bible!

Ya gotta go look 'cause 27.Feb.2004 14:57

Yeah, that's what it says

There are many on-line, searchable bibles.
Here's one, go look 'em up --  http://www.reference-guides.com/king_james_bible

Sample from Gen 19:31-36
31. And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:
32. Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
33. And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
34. And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
35. And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
36. Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.

Kerrys solution best 27.Feb.2004 15:03

Curious George

Seems like alot of this crap has no real substance. Give civil unions the same advantages as marriage like Kerry says. Trying to piss off the Christians is just asking for trouble. After all, marriage is most funddamentally the license to biologically reproduce families something impossible for a gay couple. Marriage is also inextricably gender linked of husband and wife. Its just asking a gay relatuionship for trouble which one is the husband and which is wife even if its subconsciously.

Not so fast 2 27.Feb.2004 15:10

dances with holy words

Hi,
Here are the quotes as written. The source is from audio Bible Online. I encourage you to make up your own mind. "Group think becomes group speak becomes group mess".


Genesis 29
17 Leah was tender eyed; but Rachel was beautiful and well favoured.
18 And Jacob loved Rachel; and said, I will serve thee seven years for Rachel thy younger daughter.
19 And Laban said, It is better that I give her to thee, than that I should give her to another man: abide with me.
20 And Jacob served seven years for Rachel; and they seemed unto him but a few days, for the love he had to her.
21 And Jacob said unto Laban, Give me my wife, for my days are fulfilled, that I may go in unto her.
22 And Laban gathered together all the men of the place, and made a feast.
23 And it came to pass in the evening, that he took Leah his daughter, and brought her to him; and he went in unto her.
24 And Laban gave unto his daughter Leah Zilpah his maid for an handmaid.
25 And it came to pass, that in the morning, behold, it was Leah: and he said to Laban, What is this thou hast done unto me? did not I serve with thee for Rachel? wherefore then hast thou beguiled me?
26 And Laban said, It must not be so done in our country, to give the younger before the firstborn.
27 Fulfil her week, and we will give thee this also for the service which thou shalt serve with me yet seven other years.
28 And Jacob did so, and fulfilled her week: and he gave him Rachel his daughter to wife also.

II SAMUEL CHAPTER 3
2 And unto David were sons born in Hebron: and his firstborn was Amnon, of Ahinoam the Jezreelitess;
3 And his second, Chileab, of Abigail the wife of Nabal the Carmelite; and the third, Absalom the son of Maacah the daughter of Talmai king of Geshur;
4 And the fourth, Adonijah the son of Haggith; and the fifth, Shephatiah the son of Abital;
5 And the sixth, Ithream, by Eglah David's wife. These were born to David in Hebron.

II SAMUEL CHAPTER 5

13 And David took him more concubines and wives out of Jerusalem, after he was come from Hebron: and there were yet sons and daughters born to David.

I KINGS CHAPTER 11

3 And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart.

II CHRONICLES CHAPTER 11
21 And Rehoboam loved Maachah the daughter of Absalom above all his wives and his concubines: (for he took eighteen wives, and threescore concubines; and begat twenty and eight sons, and threescore daughters.)

DEUTERONOMY CHAPTER 22

13 If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her,
14 And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid:
15 Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate:
16 And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her;
17 And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city.
18 And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him;
19 And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days.
20 But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.

DEUTERONOMY CHAPTER 22
19 And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days.

MARK CHAPTER 10
9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

GENESIS CHAPTER 36
6 And Esau took his wives, and his sons, and his daughters, and all the persons of his house, and his cattle, and all his beasts, and all his substance, which he had got in the land of Canaan; and went into the country from the face of his brother Jacob.
7 For their riches were more than that they might dwell together; and the land wherein they were strangers could not bear them because of their cattle.
8 Thus dwelt Esau in mount Seir: Esau is Edom.
9 And these are the generations of Esau the father of the Edomites in mount Seir:
10 These are the names of Esau's sons; Eliphaz the son of Adah the wife of Esau, Reuel the son of Bashemath the wife of Esau.

DEUTERONOMY CHAPTER 25
5 If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband's brother unto her.
6 And it shall be, that the firstborn which she beareth shall succeed in the name of his brother which is dead, that his name be not put out of Israel.
7 And if the man like not to take his brother's wife, then let his brother's wife go up to the gate unto the elders, and say, My husband's brother refuseth to raise up unto his brother a name in Israel, he will not perform the duty of my husband's brother.
8 Then the elders of his city shall call him, and speak unto him: and if he stand to it, and say, I like not to take her;
9 Then shall his brother's wife come unto him in the presence of the elders, and loose his shoe from off his foot, and spit in his face, and shall answer and say, So shall it be done unto that man that will not build up his brother's house.
10 And his name shall be called in Israel, The house of him that hath his shoe loosed.

GENESIS CHAPTER 19
31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:
32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.


Reasons for Curious 27.Feb.2004 15:14

pp

There are more than 1,000 federal protections and responsibilities denied to gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender families because they cannot legally marry in this country. Here are just a few:

*ability to make decisions on a partner's behalf in a medical emergency.
*petition for partner to immigrate.
*up to 12 weeks leave from work to care for a seriously ill partner or parent of a partner.
*parenting responsibilities of children brought into a family through birth, adoption, surrogacy or other means.
*ability to purchase continued health coverage for a domestic partner after the loss of a job.
*The right to share equitably all jointly held property and debt in the event of a breakup, since there are no laws that cover the dissolution of domestic partnerships.
*Family-related Social security benefits, income and estate tax benefits, disability benefits, family-related military and veterans benefits and other important benefits.
*The right to inherit property from a partner in the absence of a will.

Such inequities impose added costs on these families, such as increased health insurance premiums, higher tax burdens and the absence of pension benefits or Social Security benefits in the event of a partner's death.



See:
 http://www.hrc.org/Template.cfm?Section=Partners&CONTENTID=14362&TEMPLATE=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm


 http://www.hrc.org/Template.cfm?Section=Partners&CONTENTID=14392&TEMPLATE=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm

That's Nice 27.Feb.2004 15:17

Mother

If your church does not want to perform gay marriages, it should not have to. However, the time for the blue laws outlawing gay marriage are far past relevance. The state has no more business regulating marriage between gays than it does between blacks and whites and browns, etc.

Listen to your Mother this time 27.Feb.2004 15:24

Dire Wolf

Mother you are so right.

The most amazing abused of all Bible teachings is Leviticus 27.Feb.2004 15:25

Anton Wichman

The most amazing abused of all Bible teachings is the passages of Leviticus

http://nl.nedstatbasic.net/cgi-bin/nedstat.gif?name=leviticusgay

The most amazing abused of all Bible teachings is the passages of
Leviticus

The use of Leviticus to condemn and reject homosexuals is obviously a hypocritical selective use of the Bible against gays and lesbians. Nobody today tries to keep the laws in Leviticus.

Look at Leviticus 11:1-12, where all unclean animals are forbidden as food, including:

rabbits
pigs
shellfish,
such as oysters, shrimp, lobsters, crabs, clams





Leviticus 20:25 demands that "you are to make a distinction between the clean and unclean animal and between the unclean and clean bird; and you shall not make yourself an abomination by animal or by bird or by anything that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean." You can eat some insects like locusts (grasshoppers), but not others.

Leviticus 12:1-8 declares that a woman is unclean for 33 days after giving birth to a boy and for 66 days after giving birth to a girl and goes on to demand that certain animals must be offered as a burnt offering and a sin offering for cleansing. Nobody today who claims to be a Christian tries to keep these laws, and few people even know about them.

Leviticus 18:19 forbids:
a husband from having sex with his wife during her menstrual period

Leviticus 19:19 forbids:
- mixed breeding of various kinds of cattle
- sowing various kinds of seeds in your field
- wearing a garment made from two kinds of material mixed together

Leviticus 19:27 demands that:
"you shall not round off the side-growth of your heads, nor harm the edges of your beard."

You can view more outdated stuff at the site Steps to Recovery from Bible Abuse

The information on this page has been compiled by Anton Wichman
When you use information on this page, a link to
Home of God Loves Gays is appreciated.

postamble();


The Bible contains spiritual truth but 27.Feb.2004 15:26

mom

The Bible contains "spiritual truth" but it was written by a people in a context in a social contruct in a particular time. There is much in the Bible that tells us how people acted and thought at the time merely because they were human beings and didn't have the knowledge or information to know any other way.
If any of us was to begin going back in our history to our ancestors we would probably be stunned at some of the misconceptions they had and some of the outrageous behaviors that they displayed. e.g. It was not so many years back in human history that even enlightened individuals thought that homosexuality was the result of trauma or abuse and could be cured. In our(my) own time there were laws that permitted men to beat and rape their wives. We don't have to go back much further to find ancestors who sincerely believed children could be treated in all ways like small adults. etc. etc. We would also be delighted at some of the fine literature, philosophy, poetry, beautiful art and amazing handcrafts they created.
The vast majority of Jews and Christians around the world would not consider following the same social patterns that are found in the old testament or the new. The author's quote from the Gospel of Mark needs also to be considered in the context of the time.
There was no social security other than family. Women did not have access to healthcare and birth control. They were entirely dependent on the men in their lives - father/husband/brother/son. Divorce was a big deal as it meant the woman and sometimes her children as well would become destitute. (I see echoes of this thinking in the pResident's efforts to push marriage on the poor --- he too thinks women and children should survive only with a man in their lives...)
Most Biblical scholars recognize that the early books of the Bible (Genesis in particular) are stories collected over time that reveal how an ancient people, came to faith. Some stories have a moral/spiritual truth --- not all.
People of faith can learn a great deal by reading the Bible, including some principles to live by --- but we will not find a handbook for how we should live out those principles in 2004.

What was said about casting the first stone. 27.Feb.2004 15:39

Bird dog

Should we then wonder why the world is in the state it is now!

Who is in power in washington now!
Could we say that it is the self-rightious!
Why then should we wonder why we have so many problems.

What about the powers of Yin & Yang.
What can we learn from it.
That for every action there is an equal counter action.
In laymans terms we could use a bowl of water and a ball for the example.
When you put the ball in the water displacement occures and an equal force to the pressure of the ball.

Lets try another example.
Say that you have to go to see a doctor for some reason, but did not get the help you needed because the doctor belived that you deserved what you got because of his/hers religious ideals and did not want to help.

I could go on, but it should already be clear that carma is a power we can not control.
Only learn from!

Any nation that leads by the sword will also die by the sword.
Does Rome bring back any memories.
Why can't we learn from what happened there?


What can be derived from this kind of poison.
Nothing good I would say.
Only the willingness to let people suffer for no reason, but one's self-rightious ideals.
Then the power of carma comes back to visit.

What is carma?
Why can't people learn from this tool?

Are we a society that can not learn?
Or does not want to!

version quoted --- King James? 27.Feb.2004 16:05

mom

Beware those who quote the King James version --- it is THE Bible for right wingers even though there are many more accurate translations. * asks for biblical wording --- in what language may I ask? Any and all Bibles that do not use the original Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek have been interpreted through someone's understanding of scripture... I am always suspicious of people or sites that quote King James --- we do know that none of the evangelists Matthew/Mark/Luke/John spoke English. I know this is obvious for most of you --- but still there is that red letter translation showing up...
Scholars use multiple translations in order to "get at the meanings."

Item E 27.Feb.2004 18:30

pix

What kind of shoes? Nice shoes?

keep your bible to yourself 27.Feb.2004 19:40

unbeliever

Why should I have to bow and scrape before the religious superstitions of others? Keep your bible in your church and out of my face and my personal affairs.

Conclusion: The Bible is dumb 28.Feb.2004 01:00

hardy har

To me, no matter how you translate or interperet the bible, the message is always pretty darn stupid.

I could care less what the bible says, it's all rubbish to me. I've only been able to interperet it as a tool for the social control of people that arn't that bright. In my eyes, if you believe that Jesus was the son of God, then you are an idiot. If you've ever said, "I accept Jesus Christ as my saivor", then you are infact, a babbling moron.

I don't care if your a Christian, Jew or Muslim. If you need a stupid religion to tell you how to behave, then your an idiot. If you need a "holy book" to tell you it's not acceptable behavior to kill people, then you are a moron. If you need religion to tell you who to love and who you can marry, then you are a mindless robot, and a sucker.

So go shove Jesus up your ass.

Quiz your knowledge of the Bible! 28.Feb.2004 10:34

GRINGO STARS

Whose god is more vicious? - a quiz
Is it the Moslem Allah, or the Christian God?
 http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news1001/viciousgodquiz.html

The Role of Women Bible Quiz
Is a wife permitted to follow her own conscience? How long is a woman unclean after the messy act of childbirth? The Holy Bible has answers to these questions, do you?
 http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0301/roleofwomen.html

What Did Jesus Say?
How well do you know the teachings of Jesus? There is more to the Bible than John 3:16. Take Betty Bowers' Interactive Flash Quiz to test your knowledge of Jesus Christ!
 http://www.bettybowers.com/bible.html

The Bible Slavery Quiz
Jesus Christ has a lot to say about disobedient slaves. Heed His timeless words regarding their treatment. Take the quiz and learn the Bible truth!
 http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0401/slavery.html

The New "test" ament Inerrancy Quiz
Determine how well you know the Lord's best selling sequel to the Old Testament -- the less ribald, better edited NEW Testament.
 http://www.bettybowers.com/newtest.html

God's Favorite Ways To Kill
Use the Bible to determine God's most favorite methods of killing and/or torturing people who rub Him the wrong way.
 http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news1102/carnagequiz.html

The Wrath of God Quiz II
How many living things did God kill? Take this quiz to find out!
 http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0102/wrathofgodquiz.html

Versions of the bible 28.Feb.2004 16:16

:)

Which original do you trust?
Is it the codex Sinaiticus from the fourth century? Or perhaps you only trust the codex Alexandrius from the fifth century. Then for the purist of Catholic inclination there is the codex Vaticanis.
The only book you can believe is the one that helps you in your individual search for spiritual truth and a closer meditation with your creator. This is far too personal to leave soley (no pun intended)to a piece of paper written and transcibed by so many rulers and governments that used religion to control the populace. So on preliminary investigation one finds that to rely on one version of the bible as the undisputed truth for all is patently foolhardy.

 http://www.fathom.com/feature/122104/

Which version do I trust? 28.Feb.2004 17:41

Uh that's tough

I trust the version that will leave my wipe butt the cleanest after taking a really nasty dump.

to ugh thats tough 28.Feb.2004 22:42

mom

Shame on you. Potty talk is simply not a part of adult conversation.
Go sit in your room until you grow up.

The Bible is useless. 29.Feb.2004 03:23

Pookydory

Using the bible as an authority on any subject other than banal rambling is pointless in the extreme. That book is the most nonsensical, badly written piece of dribble I've ever had the displeasure of seeing. It reads like Dr. Seus - minus the meter and wit. In fact, I apologize to Dr. Seus for the comparison.

You shouldn't make up your mind about this issue based on the bible. The question is whether to treat gays as if they are in fact human beings or to continue the status quo. That is a question you can only answer with the price of your soul. My soul tells me that we all deserve to be treated equally - even people who think the bible is a good read.