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Mother & son murdered by SUV in Portland

Read this Oregonian article for details on how an impatient, priviledged SUV driver thought she was too good to stop when all other cars did, swerved around them and killed a mother and young son. This was BEFORE today's snow, in broad daylight and she only has a .08 blood alcohol level (not really enough to cause her to do this). She had no excuse.
 http://oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1073393826156662.xml

This woman murdered two people purely because she, like most other SUV drivers, just felt she was too good to put up with inconvineinces like stopping at a crosswalk or letting a pedestrian pass.

Beware 06.Jan.2004 14:24

SUVs , vans

Terrible. SUV drivers become like wild people when the snow flies. This is the day theyve been waiting for to show off their 4 wheel drive! Thing is they slip/skid even farther than cars because they are heavier. Youll notice that most of the cars in the ditch or stuck are SUVs. She was probably in this "SUV invincibility " mentality when she ran them over.

As an aside, I drive a work van and try not to stop for pedestrians because I know that an approaching car not being able to see the pedestrians because of my van might run them over ...and/or the pedestrians not being able to see the coming car. So this is to warn pedestrians. beware when a big vehicle stops for you!

... 06.Jan.2004 14:35

this thing here

a lot of the SUV's on the road aren't even 4 wheel drive, which is why they slide the fuck all over like lard ass boats. just because it's an SUV doesn't mean it's a 4x4...

Horrible, but please... 06.Jan.2004 15:19

stick to the facts.

I am obviously <extremely> sorry for the loss to the family, and I do not in any way condone the irresponsible and inexcusable way this and many other drivers of all types of car and trucks pilot their vehicles these days, but please actually read the post, and not (apparently) just the title, before making off-the-cuff comments.

The post itself states it occurred "BEFORE" the snow, so this was not a factor, and second (and more importantly), the driver HAD A BLOOD ALCOHOL LEVEL OF .08!!! Contrary to what the writer (inexplicably) states, a level of .08 is legally intoxicated by law, and is definitely more than enough to cause a person to do something of this order of magnitude of stupidity.

I am as anti-SUV as the next indymedia reader, and abhor their capitalistic thirst for natural resources, but this type of reactionary rhetoric is the kind of thing that makes the "middle of the road" types go the other way in the SUV debate.

Besides, if I'm crossing the street with my children, I'll take a a sober driver in an Expedition over a drunk in a Toyota Prius anyday.

AND ......... 06.Jan.2004 15:34

ALMOST SAW THE ACCIDENT

Add to that not only was she legally intoxicated at 3:15 in the afternoon BUT she also had her three year old child in the SUV with her. A real tragedy for all.

Invulnerable SUVs (not) 06.Jan.2004 15:54

Amused

One of the most interesting conversations I had lately was with a tow truck driver. He told me that the SUVs sold to the general public (particularly Range Rovers) aren't the same as the ones specially tricked out for commercials or for safari in Africa but they're marketed that way (sometimes with a tiny disclaimer about a closed course or special options that nobody can read as it flashes by). Range Rover repair, even for small things, can soar into the thousands of dollars. I guess anyone who can afford a Range Rover can afford the repairs. He did say that they had yet to tow a Hummer.

Yesterday's TV news included footage of SUV after SUV twirling down Johnson Creek Blvd. from the erstwhile Street of Dreams, only to pile into parked cars or other SUVs. What was so important that these folks HAD to leave their homes and attempt to drive down an unplowed street? And to keep doing it even as they saw their neighbors pushed into drifts? Starbucks at Clackamas Town Center? You could WALK to CTC. It was because they thought they could do it in their invincible vehicles.

Blame this, blame that....blah blah. 06.Jan.2004 15:59

Dave editor@portlandpolice.net

Yup, I'm gonna say it....a tragedy is a tragedy. The female driver of the Dodge Durango who killed the mother and her young son was breaking the law many times over. She was intoxicated (yes, some people are sloshing drunk at .08 due to their bodies abiility to handle alcohol as it varies from person to person), she was speeding and she was making poor driving choices with her 3 year old in the vehicle with her. That alone (her kid with her), when she had been drinking was one of the poorest choices she made.

As far as blaming an SUV for this tragedy is absurd in and of itself. She could have been driving a VW Beetle or one of those cars that someone has decided to "dress up" with adornments 5 feet high on top....it does not matter what kind of vehicle was involved...they all would have produced the same deadly results with the same conditions. Personally, I like some of the smaller SUV's, and yes, I drive one. They are practical for me and my work and are handy to have in snow IF you know how drive on IN the snow...lol. Enough said about that...don't blame the vehicle, blame the bloody ass driver who was behind the wheel. It's kind of like saying "guns kill people." How absurd is that? PEOPLE kill people, with a gun...a vehicle or sometimes with their breath....(sorry, couldn't resist.) :-)

Dave the Guy That Likes to Speed 06.Jan.2004 16:36

???

You are Dave the guy that likes to speed, aren't you??

SUVs double pedestrians' risk of death 06.Jan.2004 16:37

Gilligan

From an earlier post:

SUVs double pedestrians' risk of death
author: Paul Marks- New Scientist
"Someone struck by a large sports utility vehicle is more than twice as likely to die as someone hit by a saloon car travelling at the same speed. "
Poster comment--This must be similar for a cyclist hit by an SUV as well.

 http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/12/276390.shtml

I tend to agree that the driver was probably also drunk on the SUV 4x4 mentality as well even though the roads might have been bare at the time. I had a friend who flipped her new SUV the other day going up a snowy road. She and her mate had quite a few aches and pains so I told her to call an atorney who specializes in SUV rollovers. Its a booming field.

Actually 06.Jan.2004 17:12

they are to blame

You can claim that SUV's are not to blame, and in a way you're right. It's the jerks that buy SUV's that are to blame, just like it's the jerks who buy guns and shoot people that are to blame. The point is the correspondence between the likelihood that someone is a jerk and the likelihood that they drive an SUV, shoot people with guns, etc.
There's a certain FU mentality that goes along with buying an oversized vehicle. By now, most people are aware that these vehicles are far more likely to kill others motorists or pedestrians in accidents, given the height of their frames and that their bumpers match up with people's heads. It's also known that they obstruct other's view of the road ahead of them, also leading to accidents. And, of course, they guzzle our natural resources and pollute other people's oxygen supply at a far higher rate than the typical car. So, given those facts, it's safe to say that people who buy SUV's are less likely to care about other people's health, safety, and wellbeing.
But aside from those facts, my personal experiences with oversized vehicle drivers has proven to me that they are the most aggressive, unsafe, and threatening drivers on the road. Just last week I was crossing the street with a block between me and the next car, a giant white SUV. I would have had plenty of time to walk across had the driver not sped up, so that I had to run for him not to plow me over. I'm sure this gave the asshole a good laugh. And everytime I've been run off the street or nearly run down by a vehicle on my bike, it's been by an SUV or oversized truck. The same goes for being cut off on the street. So if you don't want to be considered a reckless jerk for driving an SUV, then don't buy one!

I don't think this is an SUV problem... 06.Jan.2004 17:54

NE Resident

...this is about that bullshit people pull all the time in my neighborhood here in NE and over in SE on busy, one-lane roads: using the right turn lanes to pass stopped traffic for left turns and whatnot. I don't know how many times I've almost been killed in the middle of a legal left turn by some asshole who comes from behind vehicles on SE 20th or NE 33rd or NE 15th or wherever. They always act like they have the right of way, too.

As a matter of fact, I bet some of "they" are reading this, right now. Fucking blaming the car this lady was driving--how about if the next time you're on your way down one of those roads and you come up behind a couple cars, the lead one making a left, you *don't* swerve into the right turn lane and enter an intersection illegally you can't even see?

...and don't even bother telling me you've never done it.

SUV's are motored vehicles, they don't think 06.Jan.2004 18:04

jlii

SUV's for those that may not know are that living beings they have no ability to decide a moral issue any more that a pencil sharpener or a nuclear bomber. Yes in the hands of an idiot, which appears to be a requirement for a driver's license in Oregon, they too can cause damage and kill. Get the 'drivers' off of the road.

While driving people around and in and out of town today I noticed that all the bravado of the SUV, pickup trucks power was useless in the hands of these drivers. People in Oregon can't drive, but they do get to save a few pennies a year in taxes by not having enough police to arrest these assholes. Yes the word was police.

I use one of my SUV's for produce pickup for Food-Not-Bombs, sure hope it meets with your approval. I guess you could give me permission since it's more of a UV there is nothing Sporting about hunger.

My favorite bad driver err, vehicle list would be 1. BMWs, 2.Minivans with Christian fish on their ass, 3.all other Minivans, 4.Chevy Suburbans, if I could develop your technique of generalizations this would be my list. For the record I also use my SUV to block for cyclist when there is not enough room on the road, for safe passing. But that is a decision made by me not the vehicle.

What we do or do not do 06.Jan.2004 18:19

Dave editor@portlandpolice.net

First, to the "individual" who posted a comment that I'm "that guy that likes to speed."; get a life...as I was not speeding when I'm doing 43 in front of a sign that says 40. Enough of that argument.

For the "person" who said it was safe to say "people who buy SUV's are less likely to care about other people's health, safety and well-being"....absurd. It's the "jerk" if you will, that is driving whatever vehicle that is to blame. The argument that "oversized" vehicles are responsible for such tragedies...sheez. What are you going to do next? Blame BUSES for being extremely oversize, harder than hell to see around and yes, lately responsible for killing a pedestrian? I guess you would be saying that public transportation is highly uncaring about people's health, safety and well-being? :-P

Now, as far as the passing on the right issue is concerned...yes, I'll admit I've impatiently done it before, who hasn't? However, now in my later years I am more carefull and aware of others' safety in these situations. I WAIT for the person in front of me to turn to left, and have even moved over a bit to prevent someone behind me from passing on the right which is illegal anyway.

Let's see...can I think of anything that's a pet peve with me regarding pedestrians and more adequately, bicycle riders....hmmm. Oh yes, this happens a LOT in downtown Portland. Why is it that pedestrians (mostly young punk types), like suanter across the intersections, usually against the don't walk signals? What do they do next??? They get angry if you honk at them, move forward (they seem to move slower then), or just try to compete your legal turn? Why is it that in downtown Portland that bicycle riders (I hate them down there), don't obey traffic control devices...glide through red lights and hold up traffic just because of their mood? If you ask me, it seems the jerks and people who truly don't care about other people's health, safety or well-being are downtown pedestrians and bicycle riders. :-)

SUV's 06.Jan.2004 18:39

Aunt Sam

SUV's are morally reprehensible.

Increased danger from SUV 06.Jan.2004 19:07

Red Suspenders

I once saw a lady hit in the crosswalk on Burnside by the north park blocks. It was like a midsize sedan or something similar that hit her, he had to be going 25 or so. She went flying over the car and landed in the street. Stayed until the paramedics came. She was obviously in shock and had some injury, but looked like she'd live, she was concisous. My first thought was that if it had been an SUV, van or pickup she would have gone under and been crushed to death. Cars can be made safer for people. A bunch of factors came together to cause the death of two innocent people crossing foster last night. Obviously the mental condition/ intoxication of the driver is the largest issue. And there ought to be a stoplight at any crosswalk on a 4 lane road. But they would have had a better chance with a smaller or equal but more responsibly shaped vehicle.

Look inside the next Durango you see. You'll see less interior room than most small station wagons, minivans, with twice the weight and worse gas mileage than a full size pickup. Yeah, it's got a "Hemi" It's such an overweight worthless pig it needs one to go up hill.

Aunt Sam please explain 06.Jan.2004 19:18

jlii

Most posts rant and who cares but I've agree, like, enjoy yours. So tell me please the generalization, of Steel, Oil and Rubber products based morality. If it is, for example, petrol consumption then that is more how much one chooses to burn, rather than what in. But I assume there is much more to it than that. I think the labeling thing is as much as a concern. But it has been my experience that you will at least answer or redirect an honest question.

Red Suspenders 06.Jan.2004 19:40

jlii

Perhaps more than the shape of a vehicle, though this is a fair idea, the zoning of use will address having a three ton SUV as commuting car. Once the market for driving a tank is gone so will be the 'status' of driving one of these behemoths for coffee. It is legal to drive a Tank down the street if you could remove the treads and replace them with wheels. Insane of course.

On a sidebar did you know that a signature of a Captiol Investment, Market Research Company in Boston named Bain and Co. was wearing red susspenders. They wercalled Bainies, they all sucked.

dave is just plain wrong 06.Jan.2004 19:41

clamydia

It is not illegal to pass someone on the right when they are stopped to make a left turn, as long as they are not stopped at a crosswalk. It is illegal to not stop at a crosswalk when pedestrians are present in ANY AREA of it. That means that if I am in the crosswalk on the other side of the street, YOU STILL NEED TO STOP. It doesn't mean, "pass in front of me within five feet of my body so that the driver behind you doesn't even know that I'm there and hits me" Bicycle riders who happen to be downtown do not undergo some sort of hypnosis that makes them "[not] obey traffic control devices...glide through red lights and hold up traffic just because of their mood..." When I ride downtown, I actually tend to be MORE careful because it's harder to notice me with all the ambient activity. Since in that situation I am a "downtown Portland bicycle rider", that means that your stereotypical statement is wrong. People who make mindless stereotypical statements like that on a constant basis, as you do, certainly speak volumes to their own intelligence level, and their propensity to "care about other people's health, safety and well-being". And, yes, SUV drivers are more negligent about "other people's health, safety and well-being" by default because they are driving a vehicle that uses more gas than one person needs to use, polluting the environment more than is morally allowed for one person. Just because it isn't illegal doesn't mean it's not plain wrong. Also, your comparison between TriMet buses and SUVs is completely wrong, as TriMet buses are not as common on the streets as SUVs, for one thing. Another point is that TriMet buses are large so that they can haul around people who don't drive. SUVs are large because ignorant, selfish people like to drive large vehicles because they think it makes them look big and bad, and it makes them feel secure. Another point is that a person is more likely to die if hit by an SUV than by a normal vehicle. TriMet buses will most certainly kill people that they hit, but drivers for TriMet are held to higher safety standards and have to go through much more safety-intensive training, when any asshole with a DL can get behind the wheel of an SUV.
Personally, I like some of the smaller SUV's, and yes, I drive one. They are practical for me and my work and are handy to have in snow IF you know how drive on IN the snow...
My dad drives in the snow in his 85 Nissan pickup. It's got a fucking fourbanger. It's tiny. He puts on chains, drives carefully, and gets around just fine. You don't need an SUV to drive in the snow, you need an SUV because you think it makes you safe. It doesn't.
I was not speeding when I'm doing 43 in front of a sign that says 40.
I was almost in a wreck a week ago. I was doing 25 in a 25 and a driver pulled out in front of me. Had I been doing 28 I would have hit them. If the sign says 40, then drive fucking 40.
If you ask me, it seems the jerks and people who truly don't care about other people's health, safety or well-being are downtown pedestrians and bicycle riders.
Well, nobody's asking you, because you are a fucking moron.

Dead Marines per Gallon 06.Jan.2004 19:41

Stop SUVs

Jili-here's a good website to answer some of your questions.

How many soldiers must die to secure cheap gasoline? Think of them every time you pump gas into your bloated SUV and stare at the US flag sticker on your window.  http://www.stopsuvs.org/html/casualties.htm

Jili-here's a good website to answer some of your questions. 06.Jan.2004 19:56

jlii

1. My name, which was printed in front of you, is jlii not Jili, but since missed the point I was making no surprise.
2. Which cost more $20.00 of gasoline or $20.00 of gasoline. The Marines should not be in anyone's country and killing them, fuck the cost of gas as I have posted more then you Get them out, Bring them home. There are two really good places for the Marines one is in CA and one in VA.
3. If you are into gas consumption what is the mileage of a attack helicopter.

Sorry jill, 06.Jan.2004 20:17

Stop SUVs

it won't happen again.

Jlii go biodiesel! You might be eating a petroleum apple (smile) 06.Jan.2004 20:20

Aunt Sam

National Biodiesel website:
 http://www.biodiesel.org/

How to make veggie diesel:

 http://www.veggiepower.org.uk/
 http://www.dancingrabbit.org/biodiesel/makeit.html
 http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html


SUV's cause global warming, they were racistly marketed in the beginning "the urban warrior" myth being one selling point.

I have been hit by a driver in an SUV while crossing the street. It was a stop sign. I was walking directly in front of the vehicle and the person started driving. I got the driver's attention before they could do any damage by gaining speed. When a car is so far off the ground that you have trouble seeing short pedestrians, we are in trouble.

SUV's are known to roll over easily, guzzle tons of energy and power regardless of fuel source, they are known to endanger the lives of those not driving an SUV.

The average person, like you, knows about global warming, and has been told that SUV's keep us from meeting our agreed standards in the protocol. (I cannot remember if it is Montreal or Kyoto.)

SUV's are a symbol of American fuck youism. We have been asked, world wide by developed and nondeveloped countries, for over twenty years to cut our energy pollution, waste and use. Our response? To develop a vehicle that consumes more energy than ever and to mass market it to cities as an urban warrior vehicle. This will make you safe in the ghetto. This will make you safe in an accident. This will make you safe. Consume or be killed.

I appreciated the fact and had not over looked it, when you made your statement that you use a SUV, nonmodified, to pick up veggies for food not bombs. Look, I appreciate so much what you are doing, and if you stopped doing it, we would all be a t a loss for it. But the fact is, that SUV's cause hunger. The war in our world is between energy consumptions and distributions. Our big money in america is lodged firmly in oil, defense of oil, nuclear, and defense of nucleaur powers and the chemical industries. Chemical industries are often a front for big oil. Petroleum is one of the most highly marketed substances, which permeate almost all objects we use including our food. Most herbicides and pesticides are petroleum based. All fertilizers are petroleum based. Almost all the food and clothing and cleansers we use have some form of the chemical companies control and also the oil companies.

Soil is not dependent on petroleum. Neither is food but somehow even our ground has become saturated with petroleum. We are killing bugs, animals, and ourselves with aerial sprays of petroleum based products.

I do not drive. My ancestors for thousand s of years drank from mountain streams, breathed clean air, grew gardens, made their own medicine. We never died before the age of 80. American healthcare will not keep me alive any longer, their medicines are worse than my great, great, great grandmothers. Quality of life? This life was better for my great great grandmother. She lived off the land and shared with her neighbors. She traveled many places and had many talents.

When you burn petroleum you are burning the marrow of our earth. You are burning our ancestors, you are scattering their energy and it is slowly poisoning all of us. Children are fat on petroleum based foods, are choking on asthma, are dehydrating on chemical drinks.

SUV's are a flaunting to the children in the middle east that we will destroy your water, your food, and finally take your ancestors and burn them.

SUV's are a flaunting that we will attempt a coup against the countries in south America if they do not cut down their rainforests. Meanwhile a short distance from Ecuador and Venezuela is Chile where children must wear hats, ski masks, gloves in order to not get cancer from your SUV, your airplane, your food.

The islands in Alaska are filled with the decaying carcasses of animals who are suffering degenerative diseases caused by the Chemical companies, decisions to save money. It was not a drunk pilot on the Exxon Valdez but a turned off system. Exxon turned it off in order to save money.

SUV's are a symbol of all this. Therefore they are morally reprehensible. They symbolize starvation, poverty, despair, coups, pirating, aggression, war, and the effective marketing campaigns of the chemical industry.

The chemical industry has paid off millions of dollars to scientists to disprove global warming, to fund PBS, to make it acceptable that a bright man like you should argue that you are fighting hunger with an SUV. The truth is you are causing hunger. You are causing war. You are causing genocide against native peoples in south America and Iraq. And finally you are a danger to me walking on the street in my neighborhood.

Stop SUV 06.Jan.2004 20:22

jlii

Given your talents for being wrong this won't surprise you either but I don't have flags or need them, in fact only when people like you refer to them do I think of them or nations, really. And to help you answer "which cost more $20.00 or $20.00... they both cost the same. Instead of using three small cars to drive activists to the action one big will do that and saves gas. But you probably "learned" to drive in OR so you won't get that either. No one has said how an inanimate object makes moral decisions. It got real quite on that, SUV's have a place and it is not commuting but here it is some thing and someone to pick on which will get a lot of support, that makes it spin easy and popular not right.

to jilii 06.Jan.2004 20:24

clamydia

I GOT IT!!! It's a trick question! $20.00 of gasoline costs the SAME as $20.00 of gasoline. It's like that pound of feathers/pound of gold thing. You almost had me there...

PS I'm just teasing, no offense meant... ;-)


AAAAAAARRRRRRRGH!!!!! 06.Jan.2004 20:26

clamydia

WHY CAN'T I EVER FUCKING REMEMBER TO CLICK "USE HTML"?!?!?!?!?! I'm not always such a dumbass, I swear...

Got Oil? 06.Jan.2004 20:28

Stop SUVs

Sorry-Jili is easier to pronounce

Let's put things in the crudest possible terms. Since long before the Gulf War, the United States has been bombing, destabilizing and, yes, terrorizing other countries for cheap, plentiful oil. Don't stand between a hyperpower and its blood supply.
American thirst for oil helps to explain all kinds of recent international events, including the war on terrorism. This February, everyone was too busy counting dead Al Qaeda to notice Hamid Karzai, the new US-backed Afghan president, strike an agreement with Pakistan for a trans-Afghanistan pipeline from the vast Caspian oil reserves. Rumored to be in the running for the multi-billion-dollar contract: American petroleum giant Unocal, who in the late 1990s tried and failed to negotiate a similar deal with the Taliban. Then there's April's short-lived coup against the elected government of oil-rich Venezuela, a revolt supported and possibly initiated by the Bush administration to guarantee supplies in the event of an Arab embargo.
Big Oil and the Bush administration go way back. Both the Bush family and US Vice President Dick Cheney got rich in the petroleum biz. Fossil-fuel companies contributed $1.8 million to George Bush's 2000 presidential campaign. Bush Sr. is an advisor to the Carlyle Group, which observers say secured lucrative Saudi Arabian investments as payback for Pappy Bush's stomping of Iraq in the Gulf War. Hamid Karzai used to consult for Unocal, as did Zalmay Khalilzad, US special envoy to Afghanistan. Months before September 11, American officials told the Pakistani foreign secretary that an attack on Afghanistan was planned for October.
In a global economy fuelled by the combustion engine, the US won't let OPEC hold it over a barrel much longer. American gas pumps must keep running over at rock-bottom prices ? with the profits flowing to American oil barons. Accomplishing that requires a war on many fronts, in many guises, and with many tragic consequences. Who better to make it happen than George W. Bush, a man whose private fortunes mesh so seamlessly with his public ambitions? It's nothing personal. It's just business.
Benefiting most unabashedly from these cozy arrangements is ExxonMobil, also known as Esso and Imperial Oil. The world's biggest oil and gas company, it's on its way to making petroleum the new tobacco.
While Shell, BP, and other smaller players are coming round to renewable energy, ExxonMobil will have none of it. Researching alternatives like wind and solar power might cut into the bottom line ($17.7 billion in 2000, the largest profit of any corporation in history). ExxonMobil has better ways to spend its money: stepping up exploration and production, helping get George Bush elected, lobbying the US government to abandon the Kyoto Protocol on climate change. As a result, ExxonMobil is now the worst polluter on the planet. It also rejects all evidence that fossil fuels cause global warming, predicted to endanger hundreds of millions of lives over the next century.
ExxonMobil can't do any of these things if people stop driving up to its pumps and buying gas.
? Nick Rockel
 http://adbusters.org/campaigns/got_oil/

As if it werent bad enough Cheney is an oil man Bush's Chief of Staff (Card) - represented the Detroit auto companies. Starting to seep in now Jlii?

clamydia 06.Jan.2004 20:31

jlii

jlii, OK jlii, Jesus fucking Christ how in the hell are we going to stop fascism and defend the planet if the only thing an individual can count on, their name, can't be spell right. Shit man it is the only thing I ever spell write all the time in my postings.

:-}

But I 06.Jan.2004 20:35

clamydia

...did spell it "write"... {:-P}

Stop SUV's 06.Jan.2004 20:48

Aunt Sam

However, this artivle fails to go into third lurking evil which is big chemical. Often transposing themselves into all areas of the game , they are often the least identified and the least targeted.

SUV's are scary but prtoleum based hebicides and pesticides being dumped onto the ground from petroleum fueled airplanes are just as sacry. Petroleum based lip balms, salves and intrenal medicines are freaky.

The unknown damage keeps creeping up to us like the rotting carcases of beached wales all over the planet.

All scientists who contest global warming have either worked for big chemical or sat on the board of big chemical. Please look into it or take some jc classes on this. It is very big and "earth shattering."

OK 06.Jan.2004 20:59

jlii

Aunt Sam thanks for the links. Yes Biogas next time, this time if I can $ and find an opening to convert. Yes OIL Bad, Bad alternative good, good as you know who might say. So a SUV on hydrogen is ok if they don't drive it into you? I know I can get slammed for so much me, me, me but I had a very close friend die in a mimi-cooper in the seventies so when we decided to have a baby we when 'armor' so to speak. But we moved to were we can walk to work and use the boat to help others. The point I was making is labeling and mass decrees are what the other side does, we think, right it is why we see through their shit. When I lived in Boston I sold my car did not need it there, here's a little different.
I got to reread your post in detail but first I need to change a diaper (the baby's).

Popoboy 06.Jan.2004 21:45

Stop SUVs

Then put your shit where your mouth is and get your butt over to Iraq to die for your precious gashogs.

hmm... 06.Jan.2004 21:55

the consumer MUST be right!

it sure would be a shame if every big new luxury SUV became a target for "D.A."... just because they are a blatant symbol of death...
Personally I hope that American citizens (and their insurance companies) feel safe buying and driving leather-lined personal tanks to the corner store well past Lord Bush's 3rd term...
Since SUV's are practically the only profitable thing this country still produces and sells, it would be a tragedy if the economy tanked due to faltering SUV sales... I would cry...

Aunt Sam, your post is brilliant and 06.Jan.2004 22:31

rabbit

heartfelt. Thank you for articulating so well the problem with SUVs. Jlii (look, I don't know if I spelled your name right, once I'm in this window it's a hassle to go back)...what is with you? Usually you seem so intelligent. Your posts on this thread seem hostile and petty. The spelling of your pen name? Who cares? And it's just an excuse that you need the SUV to haul around food for people--of course a pickup would do the same. I can't stand the selfishness of parents with their children. Look, you're supposed to be PROTECTING the world and its environment for your child, not getting all me, me, me to give everything to your child despite the consequences to the rest of the world. It is well known that SUVs aren't even the safest thing out there. And...what about when your kid is out there walking and some person in an SUV doesn't see them and hits him or her. You are creating that world. You don't get that SUV just for yourself and you're the only one who drives one--you're part of the problem of these cars that guzzle way too much gas (and all the issues that go with that) and are a danger to others on the road. It's shameful, really--an afront and a misery to those who are actually fighting to protect YOUR environment. I would be embarrassed to drive around in an SUV.

The child thing really is annoying. I'm becoming so tired of seeing Americans and their babies--just knowing that the way that these individuals will raise their child will be unconscious consumerism and harm...and even when you protest that characterization, jlii, and make excuses, your actions show me that there is truth in it.

Stop SUV's 06.Jan.2004 22:42

jlii

If I thought that killing was an acceptable means to an end I would. But If I was in Iraq I'd be fighting for them. Not some punk ass know nothing America war whore. You need to spend your time bringing Johnny Reb home.

General Motors tentacles reach everywhere 06.Jan.2004 22:55

Stop SUVs

Aunt Sam said>The chemical industry has paid off millions of dollars to scientists to disprove global warming, to fund PBS, to make it acceptable that a bright man like you should argue that you are fighting hunger with an SUV. The truth is you are causing hunger. You are causing war. You are causing genocide against native peoples in south America and Iraq. And finally you are a danger to me walking on the street in my neighborhood.

I also noticed that Gen Motors funds lots of PBS shows such as Ken Burns productions. He even did a doc about the first road trip across America. That was strange enough, but it also included behind the scenes filming "advertisement" for GM Suburbans.

rabbit 06.Jan.2004 23:01

jlii

You have made my point "The child thing really is annoying. I'm becoming so tired of seeing Americans and their babies--just knowing that the way that these individuals will raise their child will be unconscious consumerism and harm...and even when you protest that characterization, jlii, and make excuses, your actions show me that there is truth in it."

Can you say prejudging?

The SUV thing has become the a study of prejudice, 1.the unit I picked will take a hit from any pickup truck and survive. Gas mileage is equal or close. So what has been said is, you think you can dictate what not how much gas is burn in.

Can't do anything for you on prejudging how are child will be raised. But at least your able to think way outside of the diaper, unlike the Top SUV freak.

And I'm sorry, jlii, I know that you are trying to do 06.Jan.2004 23:09

rabbit

good in the world, but you must be called on this one. Please try not to be defensive and lash out but really think about what is being expressed to you, even if the way in which it is being said isn't necessarily optimal.

Jliiiiiii 06.Jan.2004 23:10

Thadeus

Are you aware that minivans like the Grand Caravan have more usable space than large SUVs do? AND they have a much higher safety record than roll prone SUVs do. Plus they get much better gas mileage.

30 06.Jan.2004 23:21

jlii

Aunt Sam I fucked this quote up the other day. "With reasonable man I will reason, with human man I will plead, but with tyrants no quarter no wasted arguments", Tennnyson. Thanks for your info. And Clamydia spell it anyway you want, rabbit if you don't like babies why are you working for the future? Stop SUV's hopefully you will find the life experience of middle school helpful.

So I'll see all of you at the DEMO Jan 13 bring your big mouths then I'll bring mine and my son.

Jlii, why? 06.Jan.2004 23:35

Aunt Sam

I love children. I want so much to have a beautiful bright eyed ball of wonder. I want to teach her about native plants, teach her about herbs, and teas and traditional methods of treating colds. I want to take her hiking and swimming. I want to climb Mt. Whitney with her and ski down Mt Hood. During blackberry season when we are picking together to make fresh perserves I want to tell her the old stories, the stories of our ancestors. When it gets cold at night I want snuggle under a fuzzy warm blanket with her and the cat, the dog, and my honey, and together we will read stories and make them up together. We will have tickle fights and eat homemade bread with preserves. This is what I want. Will, you leave this dream for me, Jlii? Because you and every other petrol addict are robbing me of my dreams. I don't dream of taking my child to the doctor to get an inhaler. I don't dream of not being able to pick blackberry's becuase they are covered in car exhaust fumes. I don't dream of car accidents and my little one being to little. They run in the street. More than once a child has been killed by their own parent in their driveway driving an SUV. Think what you will, but the PDX bus system is fine and I have lived here for quite awhile without a car. I understand as a parent needing an emergency vehicle to get your child to a hospital. But an SUV does not make her or the world any safer for your child. In fact, when you take your child to get an inhaler becuase they asthma you will know why.

With Asthma they are literally choking to death, but slowly. You and your car are literally choking to death little children all over portland. What world is this that you are subjecting her to? What world have you forced her to live in but chose to destroy for her safety? Why Jlii, why do you use this bad logic?

Thadeusssssssss 06.Jan.2004 23:36

jlii

Minivans were on my 'list 'of bad driver cars, it is very hard to fine one with a driver behind the wheel. That is what my original post was about people driving like shit. If I could get at times what I need to move in a Honda Impulse I'd drive it. I don't mind you beating on me for driving at times and SUV. But baby hating is a bit much. And when I'm open and honest enough to say I have to change a diaper and Stop SUV uses that to say I have shit in my mouth I can only assume he's looking in a mirror. Hardly an enlightening argument. How much one drives has a lot to do with consumption, don't you think? And how small should a fire truck be if it is not going to your house?

Jlii 06.Jan.2004 23:36

Stop SUVs

Jlii I would highly recommend you find another way to get to the demo than an SUV. It would just give Cheney more encouragement.

Jlii Jlii Jlii 06.Jan.2004 23:46

Stop SUVs

That comment about shit in your mouth was not directed at you. It was a reply to PoPo's post which was was deleted. Sorry for the confusion.

Good night Aunt Sam 06.Jan.2004 23:52

jlii

If, when we all get arrested hope I'm in your cell. Your arguments are solid as a rock (NO that's not a plug for Chevys). I don't use the thing that much but I do use it when I move the baby. And help people today on the way out of town I did just that a few times. No one in a vehicle with better gas mileage did. The last was a women lugging eight 'Durofiame logs to her girl friends house who was without heat and a 3 and 5 year old. No I did not tell her how bad the logs are. Hey I don't mind, too much, if you kick my ass if I'm wrong but no one with a minivan answered the post for help from Food-Not-Bombs.

"Baby hating." Nice. Jlii, you are defensive and are wanting to 07.Jan.2004 00:01

rabbit

misread an intention so you don't have to face the real message. I wrote that it is tiresome to see more generations of people being taught to blindly use our natural resources, and make excuses for it. I don't hate babies, and I didn't say so. I'm happy when I see babies of compassionate (to the earth, the animals, and others) people, because I think they may make a difference in helping to stop the madness of American consumerism and greed. I'm wanting the world to progress, not to have more people out there who create destruction. The message that you are teaching your child by your actions is worrisome. It appears that you are raising yet another person who environmentalists will have to clean up after. Again, I don't hate babies, but I'm not happy for that at all. One more future SUV driver. Unless of course he grows beyond your consciousness.

Ode to Clamydia 07.Jan.2004 03:05

Dave editor@portlandpolice.net

In response to your first statement about passing on the right being legal unless stopped at a crosswalk......survey says.....BUZZ! Wrongo. Please refer to your Oregon driver's manual for this reference. However, most of the time people are turning left from a one lane road AT an intersection that is USUALLY a crosswalk.

Now, when people use a crosswalk like they should, which most don't in downtown, the idea is to get from point a to point b in a safe manner. That does not mean step off the curb to cross the street when you have a "don't walk" signal, or just feel like walking on without stopping because you're arrogant. The only people that piss me off are the ones who cross against the sign and don't really give a shit, like you, or those young punks who just suanter across at a snails pace ON PURPOSE, usually with a stupid look on their face or flipping off traffic. That's just disrespectful, period.

It's funny how your statement, "that means that your (mispelling included), stereotypical statement is wrong. People who make mindless stereotypical statements like that on a constant basis, as you do, certainly speak volumes to their own intelligence level, and their propensity (ooh, big word), to "care about other people's health, safety and well-being."", is hypocritical as you show your intelligence level with your "anti-SUV" attitude.

Your statement about SUV drivers being negligent about other people's health, safety and well-being due to the fact that they drive a vehicle that uses more gas than others and pollutes the environment more than is morally allowed for one person, was hilarious. Listen to yourself sometime..."morally allowed?" Now you're supporting morals? Any intelligent person can understand that SUV's are not that big of a problem in those areas. Big trucks, LOTS of buses on the streets daily and other such things pollute the air 1000 times more than any SUV. If you want to jump on that bandwagon, then protest the friggin buses, especially in such a small and confined area as downtown Portland! Let's go further...let's get really controversial now...let's attack the smokers now! Yeah...they pollute rather rudely, don't give a shit about second hand smoke and bitch moan and complain when non-smoking becomes the norm for most indoor facilites, as it should be. Smokers contribute to thousands of deaths and shortening of other people's lives due to addict ways. Yeah, let's get controversial...do you smoke, Clam?

"Tri-Met buses are not as common on the streets as SUV's for one thing." Let's really examine this statement from a from a gal who's evidently blind now. ESPECIALLY in downtown Portland, Clam, buses are EVERYWHERE! You can't blink without seeing one down there! Love the statement, clam.

Oh yes, here's more stereotypical hypocriticalities for you. You stated that "SUV's are large because ignorant (look who's talking), selfish people like to drive large vehicles because they think it makes them look big and bad, and it makes them feel secure." Ok, now Clam's telling us how people feel about driving an SUV, and that they need it to feel secure...hello, can we say over-analyzing? ...looking for something that isn't there to lump ALL SUV drivers into that catagory? Now THAT is stereotypical. **Has to laugh at Clam for that one**

The ode continues....part 2...:

I really liked Clam's statement about "any asshole with a DL can get behind the wheel of an SUV." Yeah, just like any bitch can hop a bike and pedal her ass into infinity and beyond in her own little world, right? Clam knows who all the assholes are! She MUST be a psychic, right? She just has all the answers for everyone....listen to her, she knows what's best for you...lol.

Ok, the last one now....Clam, you said "Well, nobody's asking you, because you are a fucking (gasps), moron." Ok folks....I guess Clam's got it all figured out...she even knows who all the fucking (love the grammar), morons are too. Yeah Clam, I see a bright psychic future for you...maybe with Miss Cleo....LMAO. Please, people....Clam does not know everything, she pissed at the world and feels like she's owed everything. Let her have her way, but shame on you if you don't agree with her.

Lighten up, it might do you some good. :-)

well, moron... 07.Jan.2004 03:58

clamydia

"'...that means that your (mispelling included), stereotypical statement is wrong...'"
The possessive form of "you" is "your". I was using "your" in the possessive. "Your stereotypical statement..." The "stereotypical statement" belongs to "you", which necessitates the use of the word "your". It's basic, junior-high level English. I can only assume that you meant that I should have put an apostrophe in the word "your", making it "you're", but "you're" means "you are". So, I'm unsure as to which misspelling you are referring, since you said "misspelling included" in the middle of a sentence which (to the best of my knowledge) contained no misspellings.

I hate to spend so much time responding to that, but to me it seems very asinine for you to use the fact that you mistakenly think that I misspelled a word as part of your argument against what I am saying. Why don't you put up or shut up? Give me an argument with real "meat".

"Big trucks, LOTS of buses on the streets daily and other such things pollute the air 1000 times more than any SUV."
Big trucks and buses are necessary (sort of). SUVs are not. I win again.
"Let's go further...let's get really controversial now...let's attack the smokers now! Yeah...they pollute rather rudely, don't give a shit about second hand smoke and bitch moan and complain when non-smoking becomes the norm for most indoor facilites, as it should be. Smokers contribute to thousands of deaths and shortening of other people's lives due to addict ways. Yeah, let's get controversial...do you smoke, Clam?"
You're right. Smokers do contribute to air pollution, though not to anywhere near the extent of that of SUVs. I do smoke. I am trying to quit. I feel shitty for smoking, as I know I am contributing to air pollution, but at least I don't pretend that it's OK. And, at least I don't drive a fucking SUV.
"'Tri-Met buses are not as common on the streets as SUV's for one thing.' Let's really examine this statement from a from a gal who's evidently blind now. ESPECIALLY in downtown Portland, Clam, buses are EVERYWHERE! You can't blink without seeing one down there! Love the statement, clam."
Thank you. I'm glad you feel amourous toward my statement.

Anyway, buses in Portland generally run on a 15 minute schedule. SUVs in Portland generally run on a much more frequent schedule than that. Also, transit buses are a metropolitan phenomena, whereas SUVs are omnipresent. Your use of the downtown bus phenomena is misleading, since most of the Portland buses congregate downtown before going out on their routes, whereas SUVs do not (necessarily). Also, I think that if you stood around downtown on Burnside and did a survey for a day, you would find that more SUVs passed by than TriMet buses.

"Oh yes, here's more stereotypical hypocriticalities for you. You stated that 'SUV's are large because ignorant [look who's talking], selfish people like to drive large vehicles because they think it makes them look big and bad, and it makes them feel secure.' Ok, now Clam's telling us how people feel about driving an SUV, and that they need it to feel secure...hello, can we say over-analyzing? ...looking for something that isn't there to lump ALL SUV drivers into that catagory? Now THAT is stereotypical. **Has to laugh at Clam for that one**"
I suppose that we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one. When your kid gets asthma because of all the pollutants in the air, don't come whining to me. Blame your gas guzzler, and the gas guzzlers all the people like you use.
"I really liked Clam's statement about 'any asshole with a DL can get behind the wheel of an SUV.' Yeah, just like any bitch can hop a bike and pedal her ass into infinity and beyond in her own little world, right? Clam knows who all the assholes are! She MUST be a psychic, right? She just has all the answers for everyone....listen to her, she knows what's best for you...lol."
What in the world are you trying to communicate in this paragraph? Are you actually foaming at the mouth?
"Ok, the last one now....Clam, you said 'Well, nobody's asking you, because you are a fucking (gasps), moron.' Ok folks....I guess Clam's got it all figured out...she even knows who all the fucking (love the grammar), morons are too. Yeah Clam, I see a bright psychic future for you...maybe with Miss Cleo....LMAO. Please, people....Clam does not know everything, she pissed at the world and feels like she's owed everything. Let her have her way, but shame on you if you don't agree with her."
Since when was the word "fucking" considered bad grammar? Bad manners, maybe, but naught else. Ironically, I did (years ago) once work for a boiler-room "psychic hotline", and one of the clients for whom we took calls was the same network that ran the Cleo ads. Funny, huh? Of course it was all a bullshit scam, and the funniest part was that I thought I was actually helping people. Oh well, live and learn. Laugh Your Ass Off to that one...

Anyway, if anyone here is overly pissed and overly sensitive, it's you.

"Lighten up, it might do you some good"
Actually, I think you might do well to take your own advice. YOU FUCKING MORON! heh heh.

oh yeah... 07.Jan.2004 04:01

clamydia

Why did you feel the need to separate your "ode" into two parts, when it all came in the same comment? Also, since you labeled the second part "part two", then why didn't you label the first?

one more thing 07.Jan.2004 04:04

clamydia

Are you REALLY the editor at portlandpolice.net? Because if you are, you should watch out for your superiors seeing your posts here, since you obviously lack basic English composition skills.

Pedal My Ass into Infinity: an inspired poem 07.Jan.2004 12:58

Aunt Sam

Yeah, just like any bitch can hop a bike and pedal her ass into infinity and beyond in her own little world, right?"

Hey, I am a little bitch biking into infinity. That should be a poem.

Pedal my Ass into Infinity

I got a bike. It's bigger than your SUV.
It's the biggest clit bike
And I'm getting off while your pissed waiting for stoplights
But I am always green
You might crash and kill another human being
But I'm the little bitch having multiple
Orgasms
As I ride my bike around town.
You'll see me laughing,
I got a smile on my face,
While you've got road rage
I'm the little bitch
In your face riding for eternity
And you can wonder what makes me laugh so
But it's probably just another hill
As you stop to pay for gas
I ride past and it's thrilling
Excitement for my day
Is not having to pay for sex
But you and your phallic symbol
That kills doesn'tt even give you
One orgasm
Is that why you call me
"The little bitch riding into infinty?"
-Aunt Sam

Talent is nice to see. 07.Jan.2004 13:58

Dave editor@portlandpolice.net

Aunt Sam,


It's pleasant to see that some people have actual talent, as you do, to take an ispiring moment from negativity to create a poem in thin air. Congrats, I liked it. e

The quintessential bitch 07.Jan.2004 14:31

Dave editor@portlandpolice.net

Clam,

Oh yes, you sure got me on that one! (Your)..lol. I'll admit it, I was quite tired last night when I typed my message. Oh well, it's part of being human and needing friggin sleep. If a person didn't have to sleep at all, I think much more would be accomplished. :-)

"Big trucks and buses are necessary (sort of). SUV's are not. I win again."....sorry, Clam, but I have to agree to disagree with you agian. Buses, which pollute daily in such a small area as downtown, are not needed at all. People could either car pool, bike (as you like to do so much), or walk...or just do without. I win this time. SUV's are just another mode of transportation that busy (most people are), and more often than not, business people use, which is their choice. No one should dictate WHAT an individual may drive or may not drive. If you believe that it should be that way, move to another country, this is America, lady.

"Smokers do contribute to air pollution, though not to anywhere near the extent of that of SUV's. I do smoke. I am trying to quit. I feel shitty for smoking, as I know I am contributing to air pollution, but at least I don't pretend that it's OK. And, at least I don't drive a fucking SUV." ...Let's take a look at this statement, shall we? First, Clam is admitting that she contirbutes to air pollution, admits she's an addict and feels shitty about it...but it's OK, because she's trying to quit. At least I DON'T smoke, Clam. I'm healthier and I don't take life expectancy off other people around me as you do. So, you think that people who drive SUV's are selfish people, eh? It would appear to me that you quite selfish as a smoker, Clam. Now, if I as an SUV driver subjected you to inhaling my exhaust for the time period it takes to smoke one cigarrette....that would be uncaring and rude, let alone selfish on my behalf. However, those around you, including yourself, are forced to inhale your selfish smoke filled with carcinogens and other poisons...is that fair, right or definately WORSE than driving an SUV?

As to the Tri-Met buses...sure, you're right. There are not as many buses as SUV's on the road. That's becuase there are more people than buses. However, while an SUV drives by on a street for a brief 2-3 seconds, a bus stops at bus stops about every 10 blocks or less, stays running and pouring pollutants into the air in a small area while they are stopped. They also leave their buses running almost all day long, even when they are on stop breaks for 10 mins or so. When buses come into downtown, others depart to their routes, but there are always buses left to take their place...all running all day long. Another argument for another day, though these arguments are rather absurd in and of themselves. There are far more important issues one can discuss. SUV's are pretty small potatoes in today's world.

"When your kid gets asthma because of all the pollutants in the air, don't come whining to me. Blame your gas guzzler, and the gas guzzlers all the people like you use." Wow...Clam, what a statement. Was that hard to say when you have the same blame to lay to yourself? If you smoke around kids, you're a greater danger to their future health than any SUV driving by. Where should we place the blame for kids who have to be around people who smoke in their lives? If you're a smoker and smoke, or have smoked around your children before, then you are to blame for any breathing problem they may have. In the past, when smoking was allowed in restaurants, I used to always see young kids subjected to their parents & friends second hand smoke all the time. I've even seen infants be placed on a booth seat next to their smoking parent. Now THAT is absurd and endangering to kids. THAT is selfish to the core. Am I pleased about the smoking bans in public places? You bet I am! No one has the right to endanger my life because of their addict ways.

As far as working as a psychic...I kinda figured, lol. Yes, they are mostly scams, but I think a few individuals may truly have a gift. I'm fairly open-minded now a days.

"Fucking" is considered bad manners, indeed. It's also rather limiting to one's vocabulary if they use it all the time. "YOU FUCKING MORON"....don't you have something more constructive to say, Clam?

Oh yes, I almost forgot...for those who wonder. Yes, I am the editor for portlandpolice.net. However, that website is not affiliated with the Portland Police Bureau, the City of Portland or ANY other government agency whatsoever. It's a private website designed to discuss issues with the Portland Police Bureau, both bad and good. So, as far as my superiors are concerned....lol, I've let them know. :-)

You're still a moron. 07.Jan.2004 15:27

clamydia

<blockquote>Buses, which pollute daily in such a small area as downtown, are not needed at all. People could either car pool, bike (as you like to do so much), or walk...or just do without. </blockquote>
Well, the buses that pollute the air are basically a large-scale version of carpooling. The average bus carries 30-40 people at a time. That's 30-40 people who might be driving cars. Even if they carpooled, that would be 8-10 cars in the place of one bus, which would be more polluting, especially if all those cars were SUVs. SUVs are NOT necessary. Buses are. Handicapped people need to get around. Old people who can't drive need to get around. Poor people working jobs in Beaverton and living in NorthEast need to get around. Oh, and TriMet buses are NOT more prevalent than motor vehicles downtown. Your argument is lopsided and just plain stupid.
<blockquote>If you smoke around kids</blockquote>
I don't smoke around kids.
<blockquote>I used to always see young kids subjected to their parents & friends second hand smoke all the time. I've even seen infants be placed on a booth seat next to their smoking parent. Now THAT is absurd and endangering to kids [blah blah blah]...</blockquote>
Yeah, but you didn't really respond to the fact that air pollution causes asthma in children, and SUVs cause more than their fair share of air pollution.
<blockquote>No one has the right to endanger my life because of their addict ways.</blockquote>
Yeah, like people addicted to driving SUVs. Or, people addicted to driving in general, like those assholes who drive three blocks to the store. There's addiction for you.
<blockquote>"Fucking" is considered bad manners, indeed. It's also rather limiting to one's vocabulary if they use it all the time. "YOU FUCKING MORON"....don't you have something more constructive to say, Clam?</blockquote>
Saying the word "fuck" isn't really bad manners, it's just uncouth. Calling someone a moron is bad manners, but you ARE a moron, so it's ok.
<blockquote>any bitch can hop a bike and pedal her ass into infinity and beyond in her own little world, right?</blockquote>
This little gem speaks volumes your status as a priveliged, sexist white male when you bring an entire gender into an argument that isn't even about gender. If anyone is living in their own little world, it is you.<p>
Anyway, I'm done flirting with you. Go back to your little troll cave and listen to Howard Stern, and everything will be just fine.

Dave 07.Jan.2004 15:39

jlii

Well at least you're not sleeping in the patrol car. Now that we know of your interest in poetry and with you insiders view of law enforcement. What do you think is the best course for litigation against the city if the police misbehave during the Cheney gabfest?

Cold and CLAMy 07.Jan.2004 16:15

Dave editor@portlandpolice.net

Ooh...did someone else feel that brisk breeze that just bitched by? lol

Oh, Clam...I feel so sorry so for your inadequate feelings of composure. Society must just be so hard for you to handle or what? Get a grip, lady.

Like I said, there are so many more intelligent and important issues one can discuss without having to bring up some stupid thing like driving an SUV, or according to your own last statement, just anyone driving in general. Puuuleeeeez. Didn't you just mention in a previous statement that "I was almost in a wreck a week ago. I was doing 25 in a 25 and a driver pulled out in front of me. Had I been doing 28 I would have hit them. Hmmm...I guess you would be lumped into your own absurdity of being a driver, then? lol By the way, for the record, Clam, what kind of vehicle were you driving and where on earth were you going? To the store maybe??? To pick up a pack of cigarettes perhaps? Way too funy, Clam.

Talk about someone being judgemental, calling me a moron, fucking moron, etc...who's being judgemental rather than discussion oriented here, Clam? Also, "Your status as a priveleged, sexist white male." Hmm...who said I was white? Did I? Are just ASSuming again? Oh, and now I'm priveleged and sexist too. lol....ok, Clam...get off your radical anti-man feminist soapbox now. You're blowing too much smoke up our asses.

"Go back to your little troll cave..." lol....I love how she likes to sling names around like anyone really cares. LMFAO

Sleeping in a patrol car 07.Jan.2004 16:35

Dave editor@portlandpolice.net

LOL...Yeah, I don't sleep in a patrol car, nor have I ever even when I was in law enforcement...lol. Maybe listened to the radio or read a magaizne from time to time...lol. Oh yes, too funny.

As far as the Cheney visit goes, the police have learned a lot of lessons from past protests here in Portland. Granted, it makes me sick to see wasted people time spent on such things, but alas, it is a persons right to beef all they want if they don't agree. However, I have come to discover in my years of observation, that protesters just seem to protest about anything and everyone. They all have their views and opinions, which I would never take away from them. But...they just can't seem to get on the same page when it comes to protesting here. Even if things were different and going great, someone would have a beef, whether it was legitimate or not. Let's take marajuana as an example...pot heads want it legalized, and will beef fight whine and moan to the tops of the buildings. Here's my opinion: Medical marijuana, when prescribed by a licensed doctor would be fine with me. However, just because pot heads want it too, just because they think they deserve to get high and be irresponsible in life, does not mean that they should ever be given that legality. Point made.

Protest protections: Ok, here's one that I have yet to see anyone do yet. The video camera speaks loads of evidence when confrontations occur. It could either go positive or negative for the protester involved, as the police now make it a point to videotape as well so they have documents that they may choose to bring up when a major issue comes up during a protest. Also, protesters, so long as they are obeying the law, would be wise to place strategic locations to shoot video from. Here's a hint, go up. Place people videotaping the event in high places, like a few stories up at a parking garage or building with zoom capabilities. That way, should the police violate a person's rights, the correct and most importantly, admissible evidence, would be available if needed. However, this can backfire too. Let's say the protesters do something illegal or try to attack the police or other person or property, if the video camera captures that, it can be used against the protester.

Make it simple and easy to follow. Organize the protest, have guidlelines and rules set up for controlling the protest, as well as being able to oust troublemakers from your group. Keep things legal. That's the most important thing to remember, or rather one of them. Another is this. DO NOT BLOCK TRAFFIC. Not only is it just rude, it shows the people that your protest is out of hand, out of control and is not looking out for other people. Public opinion would favor the police in that instance.

Just some advice.

Automotive 101 07.Jan.2004 17:15

Mike the Mechanic

Don't so much care about where this thread has gone one way or the other; I drive a bit when work and family necessitate, but don't own an SUV right now, and am looking for a new economical car, so I guess I'm in the middle.

I am, however, (crucify me if you must) a car guy, as well as a stickler for facts. The <blanket statement> that SUV's are bigger polluters than most other vehicles is simply not true. Gas mileage does not equate directly to the amount of pollutants. Simple mathematics. In fact, the Excursion, arguably the largest mass produced SUV around (although it's really just a Ford F-250 with a permanent canopy, and I don't hear anyone railing against those - how many times you ever seen more than one person in a crew-cab pickup?), is classified as an "LEV", or Low Emissions Vehicle, based on the level of pollutants it emits. This classification is shared with such vehicles as Hondas and Toyotas.

The hourly emissions output of one 1960's era VW Beetle - which has no catalytic converter - or a poorly tuned Subaru Wagon would be somewhere near the equivalent of 20 new Ford Excursions (assuming the gas engine, not the diesel). However, obviously the Subaru and VW would get better gas mileage. So who decides which is worse, more consumption or more pollution? Not me... Just the facts...

And to compare the output of even several modern SUV's to a bus is ludicrous. Ever been standing behind one of them when they start it up?

If you're gonna argue that SUV's generally use more gas, I'd argue with that as well. Many smaller SUV's (Toyota RAV 4's, Honda CR-V's) use the same amount of fuel as the cars on which their chassis' are based (Toyota Corolla, Honda Civic respectively), and in turn use less than many mid-sized family cars ala the Ford Taurus or V-6 Honda Accord. My point is, if you wanna crucify a vehicle based on gas mileage you gotta include V-8 Mustangs, large BMW"s and Mercedes, etc., which are worse offenders than all but the largest of SUV's.

Just my 2 cents.

Jlii, sorry the closet SUV thing got exposed; Dave, sorry you're a sourpuss; Clamydia, sorry about the smoking thing. And Aunt Sam, sorry I don't own a magazine to publish the entirely too funny improptu poem...

Dave 07.Jan.2004 17:21

A request, and a thought

Can you stop referring to women as female dogs? You have a mother, don't you? Sisters? Maybe daughters?

Debate is great. Differing opinions are inevitable.

It is possible to disagree with some women here, and state your opinions without getting hysterical, isn't it? I'm sure most women reading this board would appreciate a little more respect, whether they agree with your opinions, or not.

The art of the bitch 07.Jan.2004 17:36

Dave editor@portlandpolice.net

Let's make one thing clear here...

When I made the comment about "any bitch can hop a bike....", that was directed mostly at Clam. In other areas, like where I titled a comment "The Quintessential Bitch", that was referring to bitch as in "gripe", "beef", etc.

Hilarious though how you can see a "problem" with bitch, but not with "fuck" or "moron." Typical hypocritical, though I have never mentioned anything about a female dog..lol.

Yes, I have a mother and sister, of whom I would never refer to them by a derogatory name, though I might say they bitch about this or that...lol.

As far as being "hysterical"....where do get that mumbo jumbo from? I like to debate, it's healthy and fun...and sometimes brings about understandings that were not there before.

As far as respect for Clam or other women here...give it, you'll get it back in return. Slam me, and watch out....I'm a hard ass.

lol

Dave, you don't see how "bitch" is in a 07.Jan.2004 18:12

rabbit

different category of word than "fuck" or "moron?" Let me enlighten you... "Bitch," "nigger," "kike," "fag," "spic," etc. are all words that are either sexist, racist, homophobic etc. They play into an oppression and degrade on the fact of that difference. Women are still discriminated against in this culture. "Moron," however, is not a specific derogatory term used about any group of oppressed people (it's not even the term one uses as an insult to the mentally disabled as a class; it's just a heightened form of "stupid"), and is not used as an insult that highlights the diffence on which an oppression is based. Are you going to call a black person a "nigger" if you don't agree with them or they offend your sensibilities? No? Then don't call women "bitches" either. It makes you insensitive and sexist when you do so. And I don't care how that word has supposedly been "taken back" by certain women or by black men...it's still a sexist insult when thrown at a woman by a man (or woman) in anger, no better than any of the other words listed.

Oh I see 07.Jan.2004 18:17

clamydia

I see. Hah! Now I genuinely feel sorry for you. Your website is like your own lonely little world... You're like a lonely little kid who built a clubhouse, but doesn't have any friends to come over and play with him. Poor guy.

I'm sorry I automatically assumed that you are white. I suppose people of other races are not immune to assholism. But speaking of ASSuming, I think it's funny that you assume that I am female. I mean, I'm flattered, but you are wrong. I am a male.

get off your radical anti-man feminist soapbox now
Just because I bring up the fact that you are a sexist for referring to hypothetical womyn as "bitches", I am a radical anti-man feminist? No, I'm not anti-man, I'm just anti-sexism, and you are a sexist, among other things. You don't have to be a sexist, you know. You can begin to heal yourself, but I doubt you will. Go back to your clubhouse and play with yourself.

.. 07.Jan.2004 18:20

clamydia

I'm a hard ass.
No, you're a moronic, myopic, mysoginistic, megalomaniacal man.

The over-sensitives 07.Jan.2004 18:28

Dave editor@portlandpolice.net

It appears there are those out there who are just too damn over-sensitive in life. I do not believe that using the word bitch in a statement like saying " bitch about this or that, or having a bitch session, etc" is wrong or sexist. Just because you're an over-sensitive woman who more than likely likes to play the victim in life, is your own issue to deal with.

Now, if a woman acts like a bitch, then she is well-deserving of the statement. In today's times though, women are not discriminated against, but rather given "priority" status with many things just because she is a woman. Now that, in my opinion, is discrimination...towards males.

My two cents as usual...I have a lot of coins to disperse still. lol

It's the old saying....you respect me, I'll respect you. Don't slam me though, I'm still a hard ass. :-P

Clam is a man? 07.Jan.2004 18:45

Dave editor@portlandpolice.net

Gee, from the post you were leaving you appeared sooo much female to the reader. My assumption, but a wrong one I guess. Then there was your name, a female sounding name if you ask me.

As far as my site goes, I just started working on it the other day. I have TONS left to do on it, but I'm working on it when I can. No need to feel sorry for me at all, Clam.

Me? Sexist? Nah...just a realist.

As to the rest of your ramblings...uh, yeah..sure...whatever you say, Clam.

Some people..., tsk tsk tsk....

You never 07.Jan.2004 18:46

Dave editor@portlandpolice.net

Hey Clam,

You never did tell us what vehicle you were driving when you almost got in a wreck, nor where you were going that was so important...lol

Who are you talking to, Dave? 07.Jan.2004 18:48

?

Looks like you've only been slammed by a guy Dave. Clamydia is a guy. I don't see any women here who've slammed you. So who are you talking to?

"Any bitch can hop on a bike..." has nothing to do with "bitching," as in compaining. You are referring to women in general with that statement, in a derogatory manner. Rabbit explained that to you in a very respectful way.

I made an honest observation and a polite request.

You insist on defending your use of an offensive word, and painting those who are offended as "over- sensitive women." The fact is, you insult self-respecting women, and gentlemen.

You define yourself better and better with each post, Dave.

Whoa, Dave, I'm not sure why you're even on 07.Jan.2004 19:23

rabbit

this site. At least in its ideal version (IMO), it's to inform, educate, and organize activists and others who are concerned about the direction the world is going in, particularly about issues that the mainstream media will not cover in any depth if at all. I still imagine that people here are mostly on board with environmental issues and some minimal knowledge of the major oppressions. Defending your sexism and denying that women are even oppressed is surprising and deeply uninformed (yes, on a personal level you may not experience it; as you don't experience oppression of blacks when you talk to an individual black person; oppressions are frequently built into the very structure of a society--religiously, politically, etc.). Now, if you were saying what you are with any kind of questioning or desire to be enlightened by those of us who deal with these issues (like, "I'm not really sure how my behavior is sexist..." or "people here are saying I'm sexist, but I don't see that...in fact, can you explain how women are still oppressed in this culture..." or something like that), then you might be worth dealing with. But you seem hostile and unwilling to question yourself. You are not so open minded as you like to imagine yourself.

Deviated from the original post... 07.Jan.2004 19:33

ranger

...but a good discussion. However, the issue is the fact that the driver was legally drunk and was a piss poor driver. The use of an SUV is irelevant to the cause of the death. This could have been done by any other vehicle. I agree with Clamydia that SUV's are over rated. I used to drive my 1991 Ford Excort wagon on mountain passes only to see SUV's and their cocky drivers in the ditch. Sorry, but I had little sympathies for them. However, SUV's as useless as they may be, and they are far more unsafe than lower riding sedans, are not always the root cause of accidents. Bad drivers are the cause of accidents. I have had as many bad experiences with drivers of non-SUV's as I have with SUV drivers. The issue of whether SUV's are a reasonable form of transportation is the topic of another thread. I think most of them are wasteful and unsafe. I drive a pickup that does well on gas mileage and I need it to perform my job. However, the reasons for the ownership of many an SUV are questionable, at best. The issue here is drunk driving, very poor judgement and rudeness, and carrying a child in a car while under the influence. Many of us have driven vehicles with a few beers in our system, let's be honest. Some are careful and some don't dererve to be driving after even one drink.

Dave 07.Jan.2004 21:01

HAL

Dave go to the airlock, take your helmut this time. Well Dave shows us the kind of people the Portland Police (real or madeup) like to associate with, if you are an editor just imagine the copy.

Attention Dave 07.Jan.2004 21:20

jlii

'Let's take marajuana as an example...' Fine with me got any hash? Now about the DON'T BLOCK TRAFFIC? This has more to do with the police keeping traffic out of our way. Dave like it or not the're OUR STREETS. Now that 'you have been warned' any interfernce from traffic will be seen as ADW. In the past police have used traffic to harm demonstrators. So come equipted.

Here are some links on 07.Jan.2004 22:16

insight

violence against women and sexism. There are better ones out there, I'm sure, but this is a quick search. Of course many men don't realize how women's lives are affected by violence (many women don't go out at all at night, don't take evening jobs, don't feel safe taking night classes, don't live certain places a man would never think of as dangerous, etc.). And while many men claim that they take precautions similar to women--of course that is not the case--that's complete ignorance about women's lives (and some women are so used to their constraints, and so unpoliticized about it that they don't expect the freedom of a man either). Men are not targeted for sexual violence. And when men are attacked, it's generally by other men. And, men, you think YOU don't have anything to do with it--well, for a woman walking down the street, she doesn't know if you're the next Ted Bundy, or well, innocent you. Sexism is alive and well, enforced by the threat of rape, battery, and sexual murder.

 http://www.understandingprejudice.org/links/sexism.htm
 http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/1234
 http://www.feminist.com/resources/ourbodies/viol_toward.html

Dave, you're an f'ing idiot. Hope you go to jail and you're treated just like the women you despise so much. Wonder why the man who's raped in prison is called the "bitch?" Because those men know full well how women are degraded in our society, and it's an insult to call a man those terms when he's being sexually abused, and treated as a women.

A few comments to Dave Jlii and Clamydia 08.Jan.2004 00:35

Aunt Sam

Dave, your cruel tone and nasty sentiment towards women prompted me to write that poem to you. I knew that he was a man, becuase his tone is as agressive as your is and he has stated that he is man almost weekly on this wire. I did not correct clamydia becuase he has the option of correcting you on that.

But he gets to correct you. If you were to mistreat me like that I do not get to peal off my gender mask, and say na, na, na I'm a male. You really hurt my feelings with the way you attacked women in your posts. Because you were not attacking the women you thought you were, because you felt superior, and when women gently asked you to stop, you insulted them as well, I ask you please do not come on our newswire and demean us so.

I like to feel empowered but you made me feel disgusting when I read your posts and even more so because it was an aggresive battle between to males who refused the intervention of women while they insulted women.


I ask that in debates in the future that you will shy away from gender superior insults and really attack the root of your debate.

In this debate i argued with my good online friend Jlii and we ended up kissing metaphorically. (Also Jlii if I was to share a cell with you I would be pleased to hold your hand, and give you my number so you and your partner could have a night out while I babysat. You are good people, even if you own an SUV.)

See, how easy it is to debate without tearing the flesh off of everyone around you in your flailing cruelty?

Dave and Clamydia, I know it is not my place but could you in the future be kinder in your debates?

Dave, don't call me hey lady, it's not right, it's not fair, and it isn't giving as good as you get. You only attacked the innocent when you did this. Remember that.

Drunk Drivers--problem we need to grow a spine to address 09.Jan.2004 09:45

Goldberg

Looky here, we are so far gone in this country in treating automobile use as a right instead of a privilege, it's time to slam down hard in the other direction in the area of drunk driving--kill them all. Final solution, baby, final fucking solution. Drunk drivers should not be treated as human beings.

For the record 01-10-04 10.Jan.2004 21:25

jlii

Saturday's pickups included 10 large cartoons of produce, 1-5 Gal bucket of tofo, 1 carton, two large bags of bread and one small milk crate size box. All this was in one trip. It would have taken 3 trips in a Honda civic. Civics don't get three times the mileage, plus the 4 x 4 was much safer in the snow than a civic. So the mileage people would have used more gas. And the vans which none answered the post to help would have been less safe to both people inside and outside of the vehicle. Some one above said, wrongly, I used Food-Not-Bombs to justify having an SUV. I have SUV's and I help people with it. What do you do today watch a football game?

I'm guessing this could also be accomplished by 40-50 bikes, they must be parked somewhere with the vans.

new to the planet ah? 10.Jan.2004 21:37

jlii

You may not be aware of this, MS/MR. Goldberg but a final solution was used once. It is insulting to the 13 million who died to 'play' with such an issue but I guess to you the end justifies the means. So when you, as you so knowing write "kill them all", if you use gas, be sure to used a car with good mileage so as to not upset the post writers above.

Not playing 16.Jan.2004 11:11

Goldberg

I don't use that expression lightly--40 years as a bicyclist have convinced me that drunk drivers are subhuman vermin who must all be exterminated. Drivers have floated above the law by an excess of social tolerance for too long and our society needs to swing long and hard in the other direction to control them adequately.