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A brief history of the 14 Dalai Lamas so far

The illustrious history of the Dalai Lamas just doesn't exist. Their sad legacy is a testament to the byzantine manipulations of the Potala Junta. The Tibetan people have been taught that they are led by a god-king, but that king is an invention of unscrupulous political strategists who sell influence as their primary product. If the rascals who manipulated the lives of these 14 individuals as the figureheads of their corrupt theocracy have indeed reincarnated into this age, we are all unfortunate that they haven't fallen into the hells they so eagerly imagine for others. They had a corrupting influence on the life of Tibet, and on the lives of the 14 Dalai Lamas they manipulated. We have enough corruption, and don't need to be importing it from past eras.
the 14th Dalai Lama and Dubya: ruling class buddies
the 14th Dalai Lama and Dubya: ruling class buddies
The First Dalai Lama didn't apparently know anything about being a Dalai Lama. That is because, like the Second Dalai Lama, he was only recognized "posthumously." Who did the recognizing? Well, the Third Dalai Lama! When did he do it? After he identified himself as the Third Dalai Lama! Wow, that's kind of like writing your resume with the qualifications of dead people, but what the heck. They're not around to object.

This tradition continues with the current Dalai Lama (14DL), who voiced an intuition to a TIME reporter once while visiting Monticello, the home of Thomas Jefferson, that he might have previously incarnated as this early President of the United States. Wow, author of the Declaration of Independence, member of the First Constitutional Congress, and Third President of the United States! Well, let's see, that would have been in 1776. A little arithmetic will show us that, during that time period, the Eighth Dalai Lama (8DL) was on the throne in Tibet. Okay, assume that he did not only reincarnate successively as a bunch of Tibetans, he generated a double and had him reborn in Virginia (where he developed a taste for having sex with his slaves, but that's another story). Assuming this, he was simultaneously T. Jefferson, Founding Father of the USA, and Jamphel Gyatso (1758-1804), who according to this website  http://news.mpr.org/features/200105/07_newsroom_dalai/bios.shtml at Minnesota Public Radio ("MPR"), "was uninterested in politics, and for a 150-year period starting with his reign, day-to-day power was exercised in Tibet neither by Dalai lamas nor the Chinese ambans, but by a series of regents. During Jamphel Gyatso's reign, Tibet fought wars with the Gurkhas of Nepal, and received a delegation from England, which was interested in Tibet because of its strategic location in relation to British India, China, and Czarist Russia. The Tibetans at this time began to severely restrict outside visitors."

So, what a guy! A real diplomat this 8DL/Third US President. He's fighting a war with Britain on one side of the world, and having them to tea on the other side. And the British none the wiser.

At any rate, you'd figure once he got back from this double incarnation, he'd drop the apolitical stance of the Eighth Dalai Lama and import some democratic reforms into Tibet. Let's check the Ninth DL's record.

Whoops! He didn't get much of a chance, since he was "likely murdered" at age 11 by his compassionate tutors. According to MPR, 9DL Lungtok Gyatso (1806-1815) enjoyed a very brief reign. He "died at age 11 in the Potala palace. Some historians believe that, given the tumultuous state of Tibetan politics, he was assassinated. The subsequent three Dalai Lamas also died young. Some theories suggest they, too, were murdered." Well, maybe he did come back from America with some ideas for reform!

At any rate, back to the Dalai Lama and the Mongol thugs. What's that about? The Third DL recognized himself as the incarnation of two men who had apparently never prophesied that, in the future, they would be reborn as 3DL. IN-teresting, that. Because one of the bulwarks of "credibility" for the serial-reincarnation hypothesis is that the births of the reincarnated ones are foreseen by the prior incarnation. This slim warrant of authority is lacking for the Third Dalai Lama. But what did he care? He had Mongol muscle to back his claim.

How'd that happen? Well, kind of like with the TIME reporters. The Third DL was hanging out with Altan Khan in around 1578 when suddenly he had a flash. In a past life, 3DL told the Khan, he had been a famous Tibetan warlord! And in that past life as a Tibetan warlord, the Khan's spiritual mentor had been -- YES! Prior incarnations of 3DL! Happy reunion! Kill the fatted calf.

And who was 4DL? Squeeze your eyes shut really hard and think about how Tibetans work. Make your guess! YES! The Fourth Dalai Lama was Altan Khan's Grandson! YES!

So what happened in the reign of 5DL? Let's just take a quote from the Shamarpa's website
 http://www.karmapa-controversy.org/VA/VA-Quelques-donnees.html
since they can be presumed to know their Tibetan history pretty well:

"The landscape of the old Tibet was dotted with wars, political intrigue, and bloody feuds. For centuries, two old, "red-hat" Buddhist schools, the Sakya and the Kagyu, held, one after the other, undisputed sway over the country. By the beginning of the seventeenth century, a new power had emerged and began to threaten the political status quo: the Gelugs, or Virtuous Ones, a "yellow-hat," reformed Buddhist order, founded around 1410 by a disciple of the 4th Karmapa. Led by the mighty 5th Dalai Lama and his authoritative ministers, the Gelugs invited Gushri Khan, the Mongolian warlord, into Tibet in 1638. Their design was to break the power of the Kagyus, take over the government, and secure a hold on Kham in the east and the rebellious Tsang in the south of the country. Given free rein, the ferocious Mongol hordes razed to the ground or converted to the Gelugpa tradition a large number of Nyingma monasteries. The 10th Karmapa had to flee into a thirty-year exile after his camp was attacked by an army operating on orders from the Dalai Lama's ministers. The school of the Virtuous Ones imposed their political hegemony with sword and fire."

5DL was such a powerful figure that his "regent" concealed his death for about fifteen years. MPR wrote:

"Lozang Gyatso's death in 1682 was not announced until 1697, as the regent of Tibet attempted to monopolize power."

That's cool. This DL scam gets manipulated every which way. When they're dead, you conceal their death for fifteen years, and -- wait a minute -- how the hell do you conceal the DL's death for fifteen years? Wouldn't somebody notice? That will give you an idea how tight lips were sealed in the Potala. And if you think you can keep a political secret for fifteen years without killing a few people and bribing a hell of a lot more, then you should definitely be a Tibetan Buddhist, 'cause you can believe anything.

But eventually, someone finds out that the DL is dead, and you gotta pick a new one. No problem.

6DL hasn't been discussed before, but he also died young, at age 23. He made the mistake of alienating the Mongols who had made the DLs the puppet leaders of the nation. The Mongols invaded, kicked him off the throne, and killed him when he tried to flee Tibet. From the MPR site:

"Tsangyang Gyatso (1683-1706). Because of the delay in announcing the Fifth Dalai Lama's death, Tsangyang Gyatso was well into his teens before he was recognized as the Sixth Dalai Lama. He is considered to be the most unconventional Dalai Lama. He dressed as a layperson, drank wine, enjoyed the company of women and composed love songs that are still popular in Tibet. His eccentric style alienated him from Mongol leader Lhabzang Khan, who invaded Tibet during this time and deposed Tsangyang Gyatso. He died while leaving the country; many historians believe he was murdered. Lhabsang Khan appointed another monk, Yeshe Gyatso, as the Seventh Dalai Lama, but his legitimacy has never been recognized by the Tibetan people."

7DL knew better than to piss off the politicians, because his posse got the Chinese to push out the Mongols, who had deposed 6DL. 7DL remained a figurehead political leader, with a Chinese "amban" making all the decisions pursuant to Chinese law.

8DL we already discussed. Another hands-off leader, thanks perhaps to having transferred his political spirit through the ether to his co-incarnation, Thomas Jefferson.

9DL, as we know, died young. Here's the stats on 10DL, 11DL and 12DL, indicating that here was a position with no job security. From the MPR website again:

"10th
Tsultrim Gyatso (1816-1837). Like his predecessor, Tsultrim Gyatso died suddenly in Potala before assuming temporal power. During his brief life, Tibet continued to isolate itself, while keeping a suspicious eye on its borders.

11th
Khendrup Gyatso (1838-1856). He was the third in a series of Dalai Lamas who died at an early age. During Khendrup Gyatso's life, China's influence in Tibet weakened further because of the Opium War and the Taiping Rebellion. Tibet's struggles continued with Nepal and Ladakh to the west.

12th

Trinley Gyatso (1856-1875). His reign was a time of severe unrest among Tibet's neighbors. The weaker Qing dynasty was unable to provide military support because of its own battles. At the same time, the British intensified pressure on the Tibetan borders, from their colonial bastion in India."

Time for Arithmetic:

10DL was killed at age 21 "before assuming temporal power." That's 21 years of rule by regents.
11DL was killed at age 18, so that's another 18 years of regent-rule.
12DL was killed at age 19, adding another 19 years of regent-rule.

If you ask whether the Trimondis are off their nut with their book, The Shadow of the Dalai Lama (see the Thorn in the Lotus thread), which alludes to murder and human sacrifice as elements of ritual, you must consider this fact: the Holy Men in the Potala somehow killed the God-king Four Times! Serially going through this charade of "finding a reincarnation," taking him from his family, and mummifying him in ritual, then sending him off to the heavenly realms. Probably they did it with careful rituals that made sure his soul wouldn't get bruised from all that birth, death, rebirth stuff.

Now consider also that the old lamas who committed the god-murders have also been reincarnating. There's no history to say that finally the Potala Junta was broken up and 12DL was therefore not murdered, and all of his killers were forbidden to reincarnate. Hell no, the Potala Junta leaders continued to reincarnate, and their later incarnations still hold positions of power within the Gelugpa power structure.

So lemme ask you this: when 14DL draws inspirational support from his lineage, how the hell does he do it? What's it like to know that he is surrounded by the reincarnations of people who serially killed his past incarnations, assuming he believes in this stuff. How do you draw inspiration from a guy like 3DL, who apparently was a total opportunist. How do you draw inspiration from 4DL, who was the grandson of the guy who bought into 3DL's "Hey man, we were together in past incarnations!" scam? How do you draw inspiration from 5DL, who converted people by the sword and took over opposing monasteries in a gangsterish takeover assisted by Gushri Khan's mongol thugs that put rival sect leaders into exile.

But let's move on. Finally 13DL lives a normal lifespan. How is that? Well, he was a jumpy kinda guy. Probably got to thinkin' about what had happened to 9DL - 12DL, and got a fuckin' clue. Most people say he fled Tibet twice to escape outside aggression. See MPR website. However, I suspect that he wanted to get the hell out of the Potala any damn way he could. Much better out their traveling amongst the poor people who think you're god, than in the castle, where everyone thinks they're god, and you're just a pawn in their game. All of the old conniving lamas stay in Lhasa, with their wealth and ceremonies. You get out on horseback with the yak herders, and you're a lot safer.

14DL has followed the same tactic, at least by getting out of Lhasa. It has probably saved his life, if the histories of the prior five DLs tells us anything.

Of course, you probably think he had no choice but to abdicate, but I question that. Remember how suspicious it was when "W" hid in a bunker while the WTO towers were reduced to smoking ruin. When London was being bombed with V2 rockets and buzz bombs, did Churchill flee to America? Why is Israel pushing so hard to evict Arafat? Abdication is the abandonment of your followers, that's why. A leader in exile is no leader at all.

From a traditional viewpoint, leaving Tibet was an enormous bungle. The first time 14DL left, on December 20, 1950, he simultaneously sent a delegation from Lhasa to Beijing to negotiate a deal with the PRC. The delegates unanimously signed an agreement that essentially "wiped out Tibetan autonomy," and still provides the basis for the PRC to claim that Tibet is part of China. See the text of the agreement at this URL:  http://www.tibet.freeserve.co.uk/beijing.html. 14DL was supposedly very bummed out about this agreement, but he never repudiated it in a timely fashion.

But from 14DL's viewpoint, it was probably the right move. Lhasa was crawling with war profiteers who were making lots of money selling supplies to the Chinese garrison. The people he sent to negotiate with China came back to Lhasa, having given away the country. His prior incarnations had been murdered by their handlers, and the 13DL kept alive by staying on the move.

Tibet had already been taken over by evildoers. The Chinese were like the buzzards, tearing apart the corpse. 14DL now hopes to build the Tibet that never existed -- one founded on equality and fairness -- something more Jeffersonian, like 9DL might've had in mind, if he hadn't died at age 11.

So what's the box score? We start with 14 Dalai Lamas:

1DL didn't even know he was one.
2DL didn't know it either.
3DL was some kind of clever opportunist.
4DL was a royal appointee.
5DL was a killer-conqueror, and his last fifteen years of "rule" were fraudulent.
6DL was murdered at the age of 23, and his appointed successor was denied office.
7DL was put on the throne by the Chinese, who treated him as a figurehead.
8DL was a hands-off guy who let the Chinese run the country.
9DL was murdered and never ruled.
10DL was murdered and never ruled.
11DL was murdered and never ruled.
12DL was murdered and never ruled.
13DL fled twice, which isn't a sign of great political support, but nominally ran the country.
14DL effectively abdicated, and never ruled the country. As a leader in exile, he is a figurehead for armies of monastics who take refuge in his popularity to pump their own organizations.

In the end, the illustrious history of the Dalai Lamas just doesn't exist. Their sad legacy is a testament to the byzantine manipulations of the Potala Junta. The Tibetan people have been taught that they are led by a god-king, but that king is an invention of unscrupulous political strategists who sell influence as their primary product. If indeed, the rascals who manipulated the lives of these 14 individuals as the figureheads of their corrupt theocracy have indeed reincarnated into this age, we are all unfortunate that they haven't fallen into the hells they so eagerly imagine for others. They had a corrupting influence on the life of Tibet, and on the lives of the 14 Dalai Lamas they manipulated. We have enough corruption, and don't need to be importing it from past eras.


GRINGO STARS found this article at;
 link to www.american-buddha.com

Shadow of the Dalai Lama
by Victor and Victoria Trimondi:
 http://www.trimondi.de/EN/expose1.html
 http://www.trimondi.de/SDLE/Contents.htm

entertaining but... 23.Dec.2003 19:07

Joe Mickey / Founder of the tibetan Photo Project tibetanphotoproject3@hotmail.com

This was an entertaining Jon Stewart kind of write up by an Author whose background is more than a little hard to research.

Should the subject interest you the links can be interesting
 http://news.mpr.org/features/200105/07_newsroom_dalai/bios.shtml offers a similar but more serious roundup that might be more approprate for people serious about an education on the subject as were many of the other links. Gringo Star publishes to fit a preconceived point of view and I have argued that that is nothing short of propaganda.

As noted it was posted by Gringo Star who has gone on a rampage against Tibetans having a voice ... We are trying through photography and our website to provide a direct voice from the tibetans and this has also enraged him a great deal.
We have an interview with a Tibetan Lama at  http://www.tibetanphotoproject.com/tibet4.html
and the letters of a tibetan monk living in exile posted at  http://www.tibetanphotoproject.com/latestwordfromindia.html
Most of the photos in the galleries are taken by a variety of secular Tibetans and Tibetans living as monks.


Amazon lists 2854 titles on the subject of The Dalai Lama beginning at
Barnes and Noble lists a more modest 588 titles for a search of the Dalai Lama and 1,047
if the search is broadened to Tibet. Again Amazon comes up with 8351 titles on a Tibet Search.

Gringo Star is trying to sell a point of view... Obviously the material is vast ...
If this is your topic, we would only ask that you educate and judge for your self.

Unlike Gringo Stars, we don't steal others material and post it. we research and look at all perspectives and we research the authors, who publishes the work and who supports and pasy for the research we use. See the other posts on Tibet at this site.

Unlike gringo star, we invite personal discussion and criticism here and at our email address. many of you have already sent kind comments and our hit meter shows plenty of interest from this site. thank You for the visits and we hope you will continue to research this subject, not to prove a point but to find truth.
Our names are real and we stand behind our research and opinions.

Happy holidays, Joe Mickey C-o-founder of the Tibetan Photo Project

Joe Mickey speaking at the invitation of Colorado College
Joe Mickey speaking at the invitation of Colorado College
We are trying to give a voice born directly from the Tibetan people
We are trying to give a voice born directly from the Tibetan people

Why not fight for something worth fighting for? 23.Dec.2003 20:31

clamydia

"Free Tibet!" How fucking ambiguous is that? As if the sociopolitical order is an afterthought, not even to be contemplated before "freedom" itself is achieved, millions rally around the vague idea of Tibetan freedom. However, if true freedom is to be achieved, then certain requirements should be met before China pulls out. Here are my thoughts:

Take a random sample of people from various parts of Tibet equaling 20% of the population. Break them up into groups of five. Have them brainstorm for a month on what type of soicopolitical setup they would like to see in Tibet. Compile the results, and come up with a system that is the best representation of the desires of the people involved. Tweak it until everyone agrees it's OK. Hold a vote in Tibet in which every womyn, man, and child over the age of five gets to decide upon it. Repeat process until said setup recieves a majortiy approval from the popular vote. Then, implement it. The process above should be carried out by a third party, such as a committee from Sweden of Iceland or somewhere nice, and then supervised by a second third party, and the supervising party should be supervised by another party, and the entire process should be as transparent as possible. If people want true social change in Tibet, then they should lobby for China to allow this. Also, a precursor to this should include lectures to population from individuals who represent the knowledge of every concievable form of mass government (including anarchosyndicalism, anarchism(or anarchy, whatever), socialism, and democracy).

I'm not saying that this is a realistic expectation of what will happen, I'm just saying that it is better than leaving the Tibetans to fight it out so that the strong ones end up ruling the weak ones. I think that this sort of scenario could be applied to any country in need of a "regime change", including our own.


Would love to hear a realistic plan to change China 23.Dec.2003 21:02

zzz

And your plan to change China for the betterment of tibet is?

the problem 23.Dec.2003 22:17

hrmm

thats a nice thought Clamydia, however the minute any Tibetan lobbies anything to China they get thrown in a chinese prison for 30 years. How are Tibetans supposed to create social change when they are in prison?Voting in Tibet????

Thanks for the ad hominem, Joe Mickey! 23.Dec.2003 22:57

GRINGO STARS

I am all for the Tibetan people having a voice. NOT the lamaists who have oppressed them for centuries. NOT the Chinese who have been oppressing them for decades. But TIBETANS.

Joe, you STILL have nothing of substance to say other than personal attacks on me? I thought you could come up with SOMETHING, since you are interested in returning Tibet to a feudalist theocracy.

Actually Joe, I give full credit to the material I post here. Maybe you should take your focus off of my posting habits and put them on Tibet? Not that I'm not flattered. I'm blushing over here, but aren't I a little boring to be going on and on about?

You most certainly do NOT invite discussion, like you claim you do. You discourage any dissenting viewpoints. Anyone who doesn't agree with you is called dishonest, lying, stealing, etc. Are you for real? How is that encouraging discussion? Please explain that to me.

But ENOUGH! You have succeeded, "Joe," in bringing the level of discourse down to your usual lawyerly mudslinging. Let's get back on topic, shall we?

Please, "Joe," explain how Charles Carreon's history of the Dalai Lamas is false or even misleading. I would be happy to discuss that with you. Please refrain from flirting with me in your usual Gringo-obsessed way and PLEASE stay on topic of the Dalai Lamas and their Khan-inspired martial tradition of Tantric Buddhism imported from Mongolia.

If you persist with your lawyerly discussion of my posting habits, am I correct in assuming that it is your intention to urgently draw attention away from the fact that you are proposing bringing Tibet back to its traditional feudal sexist homophobic oppressive theocracy?

More sites for further study;

8 question for the Dalai Lama, concerning his extreme hypocrisy;
 http://www.trimondi.de/EN/deba03.html

Friendly Feudalism, The Tibet Myth - by Michael Parenti
 http://www.swans.com/library/art9/mparen01.html

extensive links concerning the dangerous shortcomings of Tibetan Buddhism/the Dalai Lamas;
 http://www.american-buddha.com/CULTS.htm#CULTS

former Tantric sex slave for "celibate" Lama Kalu Rinpoche (under threat of death) by June Campbell;
 http://www.trimondi.de/EN/deba02.html

The Dalai Lama justifies WWII, the Korean War, and the Afghani and Iraqi invasions/occupations;
 http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/mld/ledgerenquirer/news/nation/6738361.htm

The warlike, undemocratic nature of Lamaism;
 http://www.trimondi.de/Kalachakra/dec.eng..htm

The Dalai Lama admits to being a paid CIA asset for decades;
 http://rwor.org/a/v20/980-89/985/tibet.htm

Tibetan lamas charged (fleeced) Steven Seagal (movie star) a lot of money to be called a Lama himself;
 link to www.american-buddha.com

Interview with former devotees initiated into the highest ranks of Lamaism;
 http://www.trimondi.de/EN/interv03.html

The true story of Maoist revolution in Tibet;
 http://rwor.org/a/firstvol/tibet/tib-in.htm

Buddhism and misogyny - a historical overview
 http://www.trimondi.de/SDLE/Part-1-01.htm

I would propose 23.Dec.2003 23:43

clamydia

...that anyone concerned with Tibet liberation lobby for this. Instead of mindlessly chanting "free Tibet!", why not have a specific goal? I would also propose the above as a solution for the problems facing the people of China, and any other country facing oppression (including our own). What else is there to do? How can anyone outside Tibet realistically change China's occupation of that country anyway? All I am saying is that people who are focused on the Chinese occupation are focused on the wrong thing. The real issue is the way the masses are living, not which specific group of men are dominating them. I am attempting to offer an alternative to the present situation, while others are only offering a negation of the present situation, with no clear picture as to what they'd like to see fill the vacuum.

I agree with Clamydia 24.Dec.2003 07:56

Cannon, yanqui

I agree completely with Clamydia. I think a troop of petty-burgiouse white kid anarchists should go tell the Tibetans they need to adopt an American idea. We should give them lessons on American anarchisms, and then they should adopt it. Afterwards, we can swing by Chiapas, let the Zapatistas know that they are actually anarchists, and tell them what to do also. I believe that western leftist ideas fit every culture everywhere. I strongly believe in the idea of an elitist vanguard made up of the petty-burgiousie. To be true anarchists, we should force everyone else to be anarchist also. That way we can be free. The Chinese are no worse than the tibetans, and the rumors of torture and genocide is anti-communist propoganda.
So seriously, we both used to think like you until we travelled. We visited all of Central America, and are now in Ecuador. We hitchhiked so that we could actually meet the people. Not everyone is an anarchist. True anarchism would be to let the community decide for itself. Holding little lessons on limited options of the west first in age old cultures is stupid. It happens that the present Dalai Lama proposed changing the social structure radically, but the Tibetans chose not to.

quaint forms of oppression 24.Dec.2003 11:31

GRINGO STARS

Romanticizing Tibetan lamaism requires a certain disregard for the lives of the people. There's a significant element of chauvinism: treating these Third World peoples and their cultures, traditions and relations as sort of "quaint." Therefore, with this outlook, it's perfectly alright for the masses of people in these countries to be subjected to these "quaint" forms of oppression and exploitation--such as patriarchal and feudal oppression of women and of the masses more generally -- but don't try to impose them on me! That's different -- I come from an advanced enlightened society! Such is the chauvinism of this outlook.

The life story of this Dalai Lama is the story of an oppressor -- a feudal figurehead and an eager agent of U.S. imperialist interests: He was trained from childhood to be a feudal god-king -- a career that was cut short when an earthshaking revolution swept in from the east. Between 1959 and 1976, when Tibet was undergoing radical changes that emancipated the masses of Tibetan people -- the Dalai Lama was irreconcilably opposed to this revolutionary process. He and his brothers helped organize a covert CIA war against the Maoist revolution and sent thousands of Tibetan exiles to do forced labor for the Indian Army. But ever since the Maoist revolution was overthrown in 1976, since Tibet's peasants were plunged back into semi-feudal conditions and since a wind of justified struggle has sprung up - -now the Dalai Lama preaches a Buddhist "Middle Way" of common cause with the oppressive government in Peking.

Why should an honest, progressive person support any of that?

The people will gain nothing if a Dalai Lama returns as a local feudal figurehead for Deng's government. They will not be liberated if some of Tibet's westernized exiles succeed in setting up a so-called "independent" Tibet -- tied by a thousand neocolonial threads to U.S. corporations and government interests.

True liberation starts with the masses of people and with the struggle against their oppressors. In Tibet today that means the millions of poor peasants scattered throughout the region's vast countryside. Today, their main oppressors are the Chinese capitalist-roaders who have sold China to imperialism and restored exploitation to the countryside.

Requesting help from Gringo on 8 questions for the Dalai Lama 24.Dec.2003 15:08

Joe Mickey tibetanphotoproject3@hotmail.com

As an "honest, progressive person" then I am sure your main interest lies in neither left or right but in the truth. I have to say you may the history of the past Dalai Lamas quite mixed up in your interpretation of the current one but thats not my issue here...nor is it that you have a lot of rhetorical criticisim but no solutions for the Tibetans except to tell them who should and should not have a voice among themselves. But you do have to admit , you write to incite not to help.

Nonetheless, I am sincerely asking your help in a search for the truth as "honest, progressive person."

A little help please from Gringo on the 8 questions to the Dalai Lama

Let see if we can be serious and constructive... Regarding the post of 8 Questions to the Dalai Lama posed by Gringo Stars ... I am asking Gringo for a bit of help regarding this interpretation of the Kalachakra-Tantra. (This interpretation of ancient text seems completely out of context with volumes of modern works. The official site for Kalachakra in Toronto in 2004 is  http://www.kalachakra2004.com/ )
The Authors work under a pen name of Victor and Victoria Trimondi.
Their Bios and interviews are self generated so can you give me a little help

1) A little help with locating independent sources on their background, how the interpretation was conducted, who published their material and who financed the publication.

2) Since this interpretation appears out of joint I will contact via email 2 university Tibetan study programs. Further, I will email two Tibetan contacts who are independent of each other and snail mail a Tibetan monk who is also studying independently and request information and interpretation of this text. What I would ask from you is any information on the original text Victor and Victoria Trimondi worked from and any other sources you used to conclude this interpretation was accurate.

My end on this will take a while, but as you have pointed out this is the Internet so before I would discuss this further or include it in my research or presentations this is the process I will be going through. I am happy to accept your sources and information here or we can do this through email. I am at  tibetanphotoproject3@hotmail.com

Visually and respectfully,
Joe Mickey, Co-founder of the Tibetan Photo Project

P.S. naturally this request for help with research information is open to all
Happy Holidays

Giving Tibetans a voice thorugh  their words and images
Giving Tibetans a voice thorugh their words and images

More bullschitt from you Joe? C'mon. 24.Dec.2003 17:20

GRINGO STARS

I certainly write to help. I write to EXcite you to *question* your wrongheaded and lazy beliefs, however. The history of the Dalai Lamas above is quite accurate, although not in line with the current fashionable capitalist/imperialist-apologist line of starry-eyed Lama-admirers that have so much publicity these days with their postcard imagery of kindly, easily-amused monks (such as the postcard imagery solicited at your website).

Taking criticism is a crucial step in maturity and self-improvement, and questioning oneself and ones own beliefs is a necessary part of living consciously. Let me know what your two professors and your one Lamaist monk say about the 8 questions. You are a big boy, Joe, and I know you can research the Trimondis easily enough as I have so you don't need me or anyone else to baby you or walk you through it. It took me all of 5 minutes to find out their real names. Simple stuff.

The Trimondis are German, by the way (not Italian like their noms de plume). The Trimondis have written a book which is also entirely online called The Shadow of the Dalai Lama: Sexuality, Magic, and Politics in Tibetan Buddhism. It can be read online in its entirety here:
 http://www.trimondi.de/SDLE/Contents.htm

Information about the book - Shadow of the Dalai Lama;
 http://www.trimondi.de/EN/expose1.html

Reviews of the book - Shadow of the Dalai Lama;
 http://www.trimondi.de/EN/med01.html
 http://www.trimondi.de/EN/med02.html

It is the Trimondis who penned the 8 questions for the Dalai Lama, and as they have both been initiated into the 4 higher "secret" initiations of which they speak, they in fact know what they are talking about concerning the Kalachakra. All 8 questions, in detail, are laid out at;
 http://www.trimondi.de/EN/deba03.html

Gringo its a sincere request 24.Dec.2003 17:53

Joe Mickey tibetanphotoproject3@hotmail.com

Gringo I have made a sincere request for your help. If in all the volumes of material on Tibet, the only sources for your 8 questions are from the same German people who work under Italian Pen Names and who created the material you have published then it is not material I can include in my research or my presentations. If you can help with this confirmation then I have no problem adding it to my research and my presentations. I think you have provided an important text if it can be proven.

Please excuse that I have doubts about material who work not only under anonymous pen names but as you point out the pen names are even designed to change their nationalites. Not exactly reliable sources in the manner in which I do things.

Believe it or not, this is not about you. You have tossed in a grenade and its deserves full scrutiny.

If you are willing to accept only one source then you are working by faith. If that works for you fine. Please accept that what we do is not done that way.

Given the nature of the allegations being made according to this interpretation that it should not be tossed around lightly.

It is a lot of work to confirm information. I will continue with my eforst as outlined in my previous note "Since this interpretation appears out of joint, I will contact via email 2 university Tibetan study programs. Further, I will email two Tibetan contacts who are independent of each other and snail mail a Tibetan monk who is also studying independently and request information and interpretation of this text. What I would ask from you is any information on the original text Victor and Victoria Trimondi worked from and any other sources you used to conclude this interpretation was accurate."

Wanting to know the truth is never "Bullshit."

And with that, Merry Christmas


hey gringo, whoever you are,,, Merry Christmas 24.Dec.2003 18:42

Joe Mickey

Gringo,
Think about helping confirm the material... Thanks and Merry Christmas...

I'm not yer pop 24.Dec.2003 20:18

GRINGO STARS

Wanting to know the truth is not Bullshit. But you casting me in the light of someone who is trying to "incite" instead of help IS bullshit. And you know it. You are the one who set the tone of our correspondence. Perhaps if you didn't want things less than rosy-happy-joy-joy, then you should have acted accordingly from the outset. "The tone" of our discussion is not important to me. I am not a controller-of-discourse like you are. I seek to discuss Tibet, its people, Tibetan Buddhism and the Dalai Lama's hypocrisy in seeking a so-called better future for Tibetans, NOT discuss you or me or other matters of non-importance. This is not about me? Then why do you go on and on about me in every single one of your posts? Are you in love? I know I'm charming but our love is an impossible, star-crossed affair that can never be. You know how it is.

I do not accept one source. All the sources which I have cited support the view I have. That's how I came to my view. To say that I "accept one source" and act on faith is more disinformationalist BS from you.

By all means, research the Trimondis. I already have. I'm not yer pop so don't expect me to hold your hand, especially after all the bullshit you spread so thick. I hope you find the truth. Why should I help you? As all those cute monks you photo will tell you, the information you find will mean less than if you yourself uncover it. I can't hold your hand on this one, big boy.

The Trimondis have not tossed their allegations lightly. They have made their life work into it. As soon as you do ANY research on this subject, you'll know this. I see you already say the Trimondi's pen names are "designed to change their nationalities" as if this is a sinister plot to be Italian instead of German. I am starting to suspect that you are an elaborate hoax/joke because that one was pretty funny. Already spreading rumors? I know, I know, when someone DARES to say naughty things about the beloved God-King, then there darn-tootin BETTER be some splainin to do, Lucy!

I have been seeking to change the quality of this exchange for its entirety. But idiots will always bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience, as the saying goes. So here I am making an entire comment without mentioning the real subject. You win! (I never knew it was a "pissing-contest")

Perhaps you should be researching instead of doing more whining. Just a thought.

Maoist revolution 25.Dec.2003 10:26

Cannon

Gringo, you say a maoist revolution swept Tibet? That`s funny, by the same logic a democratic revolution just swept Iraq and Afganistan. The Tibetans did not side with the foreign invaders, as you would know if you had actually studied the history of Tibet from non-maoist sources. An occupying army does not a revolution make.

To Gringo 25.Dec.2003 11:35

Joe Mickey tibetanphotoproject@hotmail.com,

Gringo, you say you write because you are 'enligntened" and can enlighten ther rest of us, yet you post an argument and then list it confirming itself. I am sorry I need mere than that.

Dear Gringo, in your post "I am not your pop"

You write saying you do not try to insite. Tell me where I can find this to be true in your opening paragraph above.

The truth is you speak in bumper stickers and you are too lazy ore to locked into "mostly comunist and socialist" dogma to do the work.

If you were not afraid of the truth or too lazy to do the work, you would join in the effort to confirm the validity of your source and you would do it without all the rhetorical bla bla bla

Its a lot easier to write "ad hominem" and "syntax" over and over and quote the bumper stickers

While I will try to confirm or deny you Pen named germans who write as italians you are absolutley afraid of doing anything that might disprove what you want to believe . You have to write and tell us all you are enlightened, honest, decent... You run with only information that proves your belief... You are so far to the left that you sound like ther same folks that took us into Iraq. No interest in the truth and just insulting your way into shutting the opposition down...

If the truth was handed to you, you wouldn't accept it. Your ego wouldn't let you.

You are obviously a bright person. Capable of digging stuff up. I don't have to agree with you to figure out that you could if you had any interest help arrive at the truth.

I still post my email every post and would welcome any efforts to confirm your sources.

Feel free to drop all the ad hominem rhetoric bullshit and drop me an email when you get tired of the spotlight here. After all it appears much of your audience is turning on you and you are showing the depth of your paranoia in the quest for CIA plots and the idea that anyone against your opinion can only be me... Sorry to dissapoint you Gringo, I sign my name to my posts.

Joe Mickey
Merry Christmas.

The only value to these pissing matches is that onlookers rush in and ye "fight! fight!"
You have sent a lot of people to explore the website, thanks for that. It has been a surprising chrismas present even on this day.

Rare Photos of Tibet, 1932
Rare Photos of Tibet, 1932

yet MORE bullschitt from you, Joe? 25.Dec.2003 18:45

GRINGO STARS

You lie: I never once said that I am enlightened, Joe. Scroll up, genius.

You lie again: I also never said I don't write to incite. Scroll up. I try to incite you to re-examine your half-baked beliefs you accepted with little criticism from the cute, easily-amused monks.

You are welcome to believe whatever you like about me; that is none of my concern. Your lies and personal insults to me make personal correspondence between us an unattractive prospect.

I see you are still concerned with discrediting anything I say rather than dealing with the issue at hand, or researching the issue (which you claim interest in). That is your choice. Your ego is powerful and you don't like your intelligence insulted; I understand that. For that reason alone you will apparently never let anyone besides you have th elast word. Please continue lying about what I say, as it will help any IMC reader masochistic enough to follow this thread well aware of what type of person is impressed with your beloved God-King.

So thats a no to finding the truth? 25.Dec.2003 19:20

Joe Mickey

We all got it. Your not interested in helping.

So far, the only thing you consistently fight to confirm is what is said about you and what is said by you about you. How did I know that's what you would worry about? Have the last word Then go to bed happy. Merry Christmas.

P.S. For the record, I am working on the confirmation on your 8 questions for the Dalai Lama. Colleges are of course on vacation. Snail-mail to monks in india who do not have email takes weeks. Real research actually takes quite a bit of time and patience. I think the readers here deserve the effort... many of them are working on important issues and good information is very important to those efforts.

For me its not enought to just hit a website and then jump to all their confirmations about themselves and their pen names. I wish it were that simple.
finding truth is a slow process
finding truth is a slow process
Shouting louder does not make it truer
Shouting louder does not make it truer
To know the streets you have to live in them
To know the streets you have to live in them

How will IMC ever get along without you, Joe? 25.Dec.2003 23:35

GRINGO STARS

Please also ask your monks and professors about lamaist rule pre-1959. Ask the Indians about the God-King's rule in the exile camps of Northern India after his exodus and how he treated "his" people, as well.

The first and most important thing I have fought to confirm are the facts that Lamaist rule was feudal, exploitative, sexist, homophobic, oppressive and very brutal. That was before all your lies, which I (sap that I am) responded to as if they weren't blatant and cynical attempts to discredit anything I post. I worry about the truth too much to let liars like you slide, Joe.

Once again, you imply that I did incomplete research in your last paragraph (the one before your pithy bumper sticker/postcard sentiments) which I did not at all do and you have no evidence of what kind of research I did at all. Yet you choose to lie again. Why? Because the facts I present are harmful to the God-King's cause of cozying up to Tibet's CURRENT oppressors in a cynical bid to become governor over Tibet? That seems the most logical explanation for your fallacies and ad hominems. Please consult all the dogmatists you know before (not) making any ideological leaps, so that your decision will properly reflect your God-King's wishes, Joe.

to cannon, yanqui 26.Dec.2003 00:54

clamydia

WOW. I guess the Tibetans would do a lot better to subscribe to your sort of "anarchopessimism" than to rely upon anything else. I'm not claiming to have all the answers, just AN answer. That's what anarchism is about, as far as I'm concerned: Everyone comes up with their own ideas, and the most popular ones win out. The people who have the less popular ideas can either go along with everyone else or go their own way. Anarchism/anarchy/whatever doesn't mean everyone has to agree. I suppose it's easy to trash someone else's IDEAS when you aren't willing to take the time to come up with any of your own.

For clamydia 26.Dec.2003 19:35

hummm

For an anarchist you sure are hard on people who don't agree with you... must be a republican kind of anarchism... they don't like the constitution either.

Gringo Star is really quite an ass, isn't he? 06.Jan.2011 15:16

Michael

Ran into this odd thread while doing some research on the Trimondis, who are rather well-educated in the old "lamaist" crtitique long discredited by all serious scholars of Tibetan tradition, from Marxists to Buddhists. (I won't go into my personal reasons for researching their work, but their scholarly form of left-hand insanity is quite unique.)

Gringo Starr, now, this one is a real piece of cake! Those of you who are hard at work polishing your egos down must bless this fellow, he is a tremendous "petty tyrant" that would have made Gurdieff or Castaneda jump up and down with excitement!

The rest of you, presumably trying to get along with your own work, are out of luck. My advice to you is to stop answering him since he seems to feed off argument. Hungry ghosts of his sort always equate challenges to their opinions with attack on their being. (No doubt he would have shot some of you by now if he could have.) But just ignore him and he will go elsewhere looking for more challenges to his "authority!"