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Save Tibet...Why?

The West has plenty to gain by saving the Tibetan culture.
The West has gained a great deal from Tibetan Culture
The West has gained a great deal from Tibetan Culture
Save Tibet... Why?
By Joe Mickey & Sazzy Varga

What's in it for the West to support efforts to save Tibet?. Plenty

 http://www.tibetanphotoproject.com

Left in the dust of the human race are tiny remnants of tattered cultures trying desperately to hold on to the keys that unlock the great mysteries of life. Did the American Indians understand things that we will never know? And what of the Aborigines of Australia? Did one ever find proof of the existence of the human soul while on a walkabout? One of these keys also belongs to the Tibetans.

The concept that solutions to the ills of the world lie within the content and quality of each individual's heart are now lost on the "me" generation. Bigger weapons, faster computers and wireless technology are the answers and things have become the gods. More money, more power, more...that is the new sound of Om, the new amen, the new shalom.

"Free Tibet" is a cause that has risen on the world stage to the level of the Nobel Peace prize for the Dalai Lama in 1989.

For most who know their plight of human annihilation and cultural desecration by the Chinese over the past 50 years, the soul of Tibet is embodied in the Dalai Lama. Every Tibetan seems to contain a portion of that soul.

While life holds little mystery, those who have come in personal contact with the Dalai Lama can at least recognize that his gentle presence is powerfully felt‹like a mystery of life. To the ingrained Judeo-Christian sensibilities of the West, in its understanding of the Tibetan cause, the Dalai Lama is ironically seen as the symbolic representation of Tibet1s soul. Ironic because Tibetan Buddhism does not recognize the existence of a permanent human soul, but rather a transitory spirit trying to find its way to being nothing more than truth. What is it about the Save Tibet effort that seems to maintain a hold on the one element of human nature that we cannot define in DNA or through technology? Do we recognize that we can not let another culture be swallowed up lest we lose all chance to find and prove there is something greater within us than DNA, cells and bone and flesh?

Why will the concept of saving Tibet not stop nagging at the collective conscience? A Tibetan monk, when asked what he thought was in it for those in the West who were trying to help Tibet, said there is nothing in it for us, except that it is right. When asked about becoming a Buddhist, one Lama answered that religion should be a choice that follows one1s own tradition. A person should pick a religion that matches their nature because religion is there to make people better.

China is rising on the world stage as a military and economic force. China could save Tibet with a slight change in policy and in doing so it would rise above all other great nations. Their current path is to gut the Tibetan culture, while leaving a corpse dressed up to attract tourist dollars as a sort of Tibetan amusement park. Parading the image of the Tibetan culture will undoubtedly part of the propaganda gained when China presents the 2008 Olympics.

But realistically, there will be no great change coming from China. That leaves it to us to do what ever we can, large or small, to help the Tibetans save their culture. Individually we will gain nothing from the effort, but in saving Tibet we prove the existence and power of the human spirit.

homepage: homepage: http://www.tibetanphotoproject.com

Lamaism; sexist, intolerant, superstitious, autocratic, dishonest 21.Dec.2003 11:49

GRINGO STARS

Over the past few years, increasing criticism has been leveled at Tibetan Buddhism, the history of Lamaism, conditions among the Tibetans in exile and the XIV Dalai Lama himself, criticism which is not from the Chinese quarter. Historians from the USA have begun questioning the widespread glorifying whitewash of Tibetan history (Melvin C. Goldstein, A. Tom Grundfeld). Critical Tibetologists have raised accusations of deliberate manipulation by official Tibetology (Donald S. Lopez Jr.). Tibet researchers have investigated the "dreams of power" that are activated and exacerbated by the "Tibet myth" nurtured by Lamaists (Peter Bishop). Prominent politicians have had to admit the evidence of their own eyes that the Chinese are not committing "genocide" in Tibet, as the Tibetans in exile continue to claim (Antje Vollmer, Mary Robinson). Former female Buddhists have condemned, on the basis of personal experience and with great expertise, the systematic and sophisticated oppression and abuse of women in Tibetan Buddhism (June Campbell). Psychologists and psychoanalysts have investigated the aggressive and morbid character of Lamaist culture (Robert A. Paul, Fokke Sierksma, Colin Goldner). From within the Dalai Lama's own ranks, overwhelming evidence of his intolerant, superstitious and autocratic nature has been amassed since 1997 (Shugden Affair). Lamaism's rituals have also been subjected to strong criticism. The humanistic, peace-loving, tolerant and ecumenical intentions of the Kalachakra Tantra and the Shambhala myth it contains have been interrogated in a comprehensive study (Victor and Victoria Trimondi). Biting criticism of the XIV Dalai Lama and his system founded on magic has also been broadcast in German, Swiss and Austrian television (Panorama, 10 nach 10, Treffpunkt Kultur). In Munich, on the occasion of a visit by the Tibetan religious potentate (in May 2000), there was even a split in the SPD, whose "pro-Dalai Lama" wing had invited the Tibetan "God-King" to a gala event. The media as a whole has been equally divided: the Dalai Lama has been accused of, among other things, having an undemocratic and autocratic leadership style, suppressing any political opposition, acting to repress religious minorities; letting policy be determined by possessed oracles rather than through dialog and debate, deliberate falsification of the history of Tibet, maintaining uncritical relationships with former members of the SS and neo-nazis, defaming critics and conducting misogynist rituals.

 http://www.trimondi.de/Kalachakra/dec.eng..htm

Keep in Mind Gring Strars is anonymous 21.Dec.2003 12:57

Joe Mickey tibetanphotoproject3@hotmail.com

Folks Gringo Stars is anonymous and he has been on a rampage about Tibet since I first wrote. But this time, it is nice to see him listing research, even if it is all handpicked to support his bias.

Ther reason readers should be wary, Gringo looks only for views that make his point and while some are valid resources, Gringo's personal effort here is trying only to validate his own opinion. In another comment on another article Gringo told us that he reads "mostly socialist and communist" writtings to form his thought process and this would then fall in line with China's position on Tibet.

Most important to Gringo's view is the point that, very much like the Chinese, he does not belive Tibetan's should define their own culture... Obviously there are valid writtings and research on all sides of the issue and Gringo Star not his real name, sounds suspisciously lke a Chinese web watcher I once corresponded with a couple years ago as he selectively chooses sources that make his point. This is not research, but how propaganda is made. Like Fox news is fair and balanced.

I have offered to have a private email conversation with the anonymous Mr. or Miss Gringo Stars but he or she is not interested. I would simpl caution that you take his or her postition with a skeptical eye. Gringo took this up in a past article and is like it like a fly on ... or like a Chinese Web watcher. In that past effort he could only name one source... this new attempt looks like a list from a quick run around the net . I don't know what to make of Gringo stars at this point.

Regarding research we have conducted for the Tibetan Photo Project
Chinese sourses have included but not exclusive The China Central Television, Wenhui Daily, Takung Pao. The current hardcopy file of research for the Tibetan photo Project both positive and negative includes 10,000 articles.

As a resource the project has been included as a link by Harvard Asia Studies Center for the Dalai Lama's Sept. visit, the Africa and Asia Studies at University of London and Virginia University. We have been asked to speak at Colorado College (twice) Mendocino College, UCCS and most importantly we are not anonymous. My name is postd, my email for contact is posted.


Resource information: Research was conducted from a wide range of sources: Major news network web sites included but were not limited to: CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, C-Span. Special programs included the Congressional debate on normalizing trade with China, PBS documentary on Nixon in China and Senate hearings on military security in Asia-Pacific. A&E Biography of the Dalai Lama. Resources on the web included but not limited to: The South China/Hong Kong Daily News, www.tibet.com, www.tibeticlt.org, www.savetibet.org and the Tibet Information Network. A hard-copy file dating back to April 1999 of approximately 3000 news paper and magazine articles from several publications including (but not limited to): The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Boston Globe, The San Francisco Chronicle, The Los Angeles Times, Associated Press Reports, Time, Newsweek, The New Yorker, Snow Lion Press, The Wall Street Journal, USA Today, The San Francisco Examiner, The Santa Rosa Press Democrat, Outside Magazine, national Geographic Magazine and archives, Smithsonian, Rolling Stone, and several other publications. Books included, but not limited to "In Exile From The Land Of Snows" by John Avedon, "Tears Of Blood" By Mary Craig, and "Whispered Prayers" by Steven Harrison and "Ethics for the New Millennium" by the Dalai Lama.

(No endorsements or associations are made or implied. Research all organizations before donating or supporting)

We do not post anonymously - Joe Mickey speaking at Colorado College
We do not post anonymously - Joe Mickey speaking at Colorado College

Victor and Victoria Trimondi are NOT anonymous 21.Dec.2003 13:42

GRINGO STARS

Interview with the Trimondis;
 http://www.trimondi.de/EN/interv03.html

Keep in mind that Anonymous "Joe Mickey" makes no arguments in the above comment. He only makes personal attacks and insinuations. I post in order to discuss the topic at hand, not whether I am a Red Chinese Agent (oh no!) or not. "Joe Mickey" also implies that any name that "sounds" real is in fact a true name, and that a picture somehow proves identity. I suppose I must give in and post a picture of myself, one that proves my true identity, just like Joe's irrefutably proves his identity:
GRINGO STARS skating along in Red China, where he is a commie web watcher
GRINGO STARS skating along in Red China, where he is a commie web watcher

there is no discussion with a closed mind 21.Dec.2003 16:29

Joe Mickey tibetanphotoproject3@hotmail.com

No anonymous postings here. Visit  http://www.tibetanphotoproject.com click on the founders sttement and check the gallery photo and you re welcome to read the updates to the project efforts... Gringo Star however enjoys insulting readers by flaunting his anonymous stature while expecincting readers to take his or her word as truth

Gringo Star has made up his or her mind. It was made up at the first response dictaed by his or her readings of "mostly socialist and communist" dogma... this is not a personal argument with Gringo Star, except that it is worrisome that in a parade he or she could be handed a bull horn and people would listen and follow because of the rhetoric. The good news is thats not likely because he or she prefers to hide ... from his or her own opinion...


From my talks to groups and organizations.
"Do not misunderstand, the Tibetan culture, is not a perfect culture, it has all the frailties of any other social or religious system ever developed on the planet and within that system you can find all of the human sins... but it is the Tibetans' culture and they have a right to determine their own way in the world. Beginning in 1949, the Chinese government, which is not the same as the Chinese people, began to take away the right of the Tibetans to determine their own culture that had evolved over centuries according to the anthropological needs of their nature and the remote land the inhabit."

"Tibetans have no economic or military power, they are largely a symbol. We have destroyed the American Indian, the Aborigines and countless other indigenous people. There is still time to get it right for the Tibetans. In this process they too have evolved. They fled to India and built a refugee community from the ground up. One of the government in exile's first effort was not to build a religious school but a secular school that with little resources, was the first attempt to help prepare Tibetans in exile for a different world."

"No doubt there are problems. There have been Lamas who prefer the trappings of their position of power and have spent time building elaborate temples and there have been Tibetans who have concentrated on the political needs and policies that are needed to help gain support from a vast array of organizations need to help the refuge population... this is not a religious quest for me as I am at best a skeptical agnostic but a human one... I have read the writings of many Tibetans and my correspondence with the monks has been personally rewarding as It has been to many Americans if you look at the Dalai Lama's standing on the best seller list. I took on this project because I felt I had received a great deal and The Dalai Lama is the main voice that brings recognition to the Tibetan cause...this project helps develop another voice, from regular Tibetans who are married and have families and to monks who have chosen that life and who feel that is the best thing they can do to preserve the Tibetan culture. Make no mistake there are people who do not believe the tibetans should have this voice."

"Finally, I have no money to be doing this... so before I decided to commit to this, I researched because I know that the Tibetans have as much an agenda as anyone else for their cause... Tibet has its good and its bad because its human... but it is noble because of what it represents and what it aspires and what it inspires. For that, we deserve to give something back."

Joe Mickey, Co founder of the Tibetan Photo Project

Joe Mickey / co-founder of the Tibetan Photo Project
Joe Mickey / co-founder of the Tibetan Photo Project

Don't lie, "Joe" 21.Dec.2003 18:58

GRINGO STARS

Don't say that I ever claimed to be God, "Joe." Because I never did.

You claim to want what is best for Tibetans, but is government under a hypocrite God-King best?

I know I know, I am an anonymous coward, probably a Red Chinese propagandist etc. We are all familiar with your repeated ad hominems. Can you comment on the criticisms made against the Dalai Lama and his hypocrisy? Can you comment upon the crimes of Lamas other than "oops - hey who's perfect?" Do you honestly think that these problems are some strange bizarre anomolies rather than the inherent flaws of a theocratic power system? Do you think that the sexism inherent in Lamaism is acceptable, and even something to promote?

Can you do anything other than personally attack me, fun though it may be for you? Can you explain why anonymous sources can not be trusted when that anonymous source (me) cites non-anonymous sources (the Trimondis)? Can you explain why a Chinese person's criticism of Tibet/Lamaism/Your God-King is inherently untrue?

Easy gringo, I know you never claimed to be god 21.Dec.2003 19:19

Joe Mickey tibetanphotoproject3@hotmail.com

Gringo,
I know you never claimed to be god... I thought you would get the joke... this is just journalism where i only put the words I want so I can make things look the way I want. If anyone should have got this joke it was you ...

But then what differance does it make to you. You use a phoney name and your picture is a dog which is ironincally god backwards... are we all to believe then that you are a dog? and thank you for this constant clarification that you are not god.


So? What is your response? 21.Dec.2003 19:36

GRINGO STARS

The inherent power-abuse built into all organized religions, Tibetan Buddhism included, is to be feared in any proposed theocracy. I have spelled out the problems in giving power to a God-King yet you have no response other than making jokes and personal attacks on me. Will you make any comment of substance on this matter? Since I am a dirty Red Chinese (at least according to you, "Joe") I must quote a non-anonymous source. The following rhetorical questions, written by Victor and Victoria Trimondi (who were initiated into the higher levels of Lamaism), could be answered by anyone who somehow respects Lamaism, which most definitely includes you, "Joe":

1. Why does the Kalachakra-Tantra which supposedly is a "ritual for world peace" prophesy and glorify a "holy war" (Shambhala war) by Buddhists against non-Buddhists?

Dalai Lama, you are honoured throughout the world as a messenger for peace, who has spoken out publicly many times against every use of violence and, in fact, you have presented the Kalachakra-Tantra as a contributor to world peace. The Kalachakra-Tantra is, however, anything but pacifist in its content, rather it prophecies and promotes on an ideological basis a bloody religious war for world leadership between Buddhists and non-Buddhists (Shambhala Myth). The original text describes the Buddhist war-methods as "merciless" and "cruel". It says: "The supremely ferocious warriors will throw down the barbarian hordes" and "eliminate" (them). (Shri Kalachakra I. 163/165) The Kalachakra Tantra describes over many paragraphs murderous super weapons which the Buddhist army will use against "the enemy of the Dharma". (Shri Kalachakra I. 128-142)

The historical Buddha was against war in every form. For him there was no such thing as a "righteous war" and certainly not a "holy war". It is exactly because Buddhism is seen as being against all use of violence that it receives so much attention in the West. How can the inhumane and warlike statements of the Kalachakra-Tantra be in harmony with the vision of peace of the original Buddha? Why are so many war-gods and war-heroes honoured in Lamaism (Begtse, Mahakala, Gesar von Ling etc.)? It is possible to find these foundational ideas of "Warriors for Buddha" in the writings of many representatives of Lamaism such as Lama Chögyam Trungpa and Lama Ole Nydahl, which build upon a crass "enemy thinking" and preach a military Buddhism. What are you doing against this sort of development amongst your own followers? How can the official Kalachakra-Interpreter Alexander Berzin openly compare the principles of the Islamic "Jihad" with that of the Shambhala war?

2. Why does the Kalachakra-Tantra, which is supposedly a contributor to a world ecumenical movement and a world ethos, attack the 3 monotheist-semitic religions, especially Islam, named as the enemy of Dharma, and swear a religious war against Islam?

Dalai Lama, one of your basic demands is tolerance of other religions and this has made you to the most famous symbol of the inter-religious dialogue. This is in conflict, however, with many passages in the Kalachakra-Tantral - even though you have publicly promoted this ritual as a contributor to ecumenical thinking. Some of the main figures in the semitic-monotheist religions such as "Adam, Enoch, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mani, Mohammed and the Mahdi" are characterised as the "family of the demonic snakes" and are attributed with characteristics of darkness and deceit. (Shri Kalachakra I. 154) According to the Shambhala prophecy, the worldwide implementation of the "Buddhist Dharma" (i.e. Buddhism) will be preceded by an eschatological holy war against the "barbaric Dharma" (i. e. Monotheism). The original text states that the powerful, merciless idol of the barbarians, the demonic incarnation (i.e. Islam) lives in Mecca. (Shri Kalachakra I. 154).

Do you not feel, at a time when religious warfare are dictating world politics, that the war against Islam described in the Kalachakra-Tantra could ignite a clash of civilizations? In the Austrian newspaper "News" from 10. October 2002, you say "Islam wants to be counted amongst the world religions and yet pushes forward its claim via aggression - exactly as the Christians did a few hundred years ago. This has nothing to do with religion, but is rather about power. And that was definitely not the Prophet Mohammed's desire. Religion should not be led by power." Is your statement not in conflict to the prophecy of the Shambhala war as described in the Kalachakra-Tantra? Why do you say nothing of the potential for aggression, the buddhocratic visions of power and the intolerance in your lamaistic Religion? Why do you commend, as peacemaker, a Buddhist demon, namely Palden Lhamo, who skinned her own son and used his skin as a saddle for her horse because he refused to take on the Buddhist religion? Do you really believe that such role models of horror can promote tolerance? Why are you accused of intolerance and the persecution of religious minorities by the more traditional proponents of Tibetan Buddhism such as the Dorje-Shugden School, which you yourself once attended?

3. Why does the Kalachakra-Tantra promote the institution of a "Chakravartin" (a world emperor) who should set up a global Buddhist "Theocracy", a buddhocracy - this in direct conflict to your continual protestations of a belief in democracy?

The Kalachakra-Tantra includes the buddhocratic teaching of a Chakravartin or world emperor. "The Chakravartin shall come out at the end of the age, from the city the gods fashioned on Mount Kailasa. He shall smite the barbarians in battle with his own four-division army, on the entire surface of the earth." This statement can be found in the original text of the Kalachakra-Tantra (Shri Kalachakra I. 161). A Chakravartin is, according to the Indian tradition, a messianic priest-king who brings absolution, a "theocrat" (better "buddhocrat") who unites religious, political, legal and military power in himself. Sharing of power by the common man and democracy are completely unknown concepts in this political theology which stems from the 10th century.

Buddha Shakyamuni on the other hand denies totally this "world leadership". As he was given the choice of becoming a Chakravartin or a Buddha, he choses explicitly the way of the Buddha - in other words, the way of a holy man, and turned aside from the way of the Chakravartin, the world leader. Why, although you applaud democracy publicly, have you been teaching the Kalachakra Ritual for over 30 years now on a worldwide basis, in which a global buddhocracy is promoted with an absolute regent at the head of this state model? Why do you support with a foreword in the book "Inner Revolution" by the American Tibetologist Robert A Thurmann, the Buddhist global blueprint? Why do you use as the basis for your political decision-making a human state oracle (Nechung), who is possessed by a Mongolian War God (Pehar) rather than the normal democratic political processes?

4. Why do you promote unmoral and criminal acts, such as killing, lying, stealing and adultery, amongst the initiates of the different Buddhist Tantra-texts, especially the Kalachakra-Tantra - this in opposition to your promotion worldwide of social-ethics?

In the secret eight highest initiation rites of the Kalachakra-Tantra the initiate comes into a state of mind, "beyond good and evil", through extreme mental and physical acts. The original text demanded from the initiate the following crimes: to kill, to lie, to steal and infidelity. Even you find it legitimate when a Kalachakra-initiate under certain circumstances, kills people "who are harmful to the Buddhist teaching" (Dalai Lama - The Kalachakra-Tantra - London 1985, p. 349). Even when you demand that the killings demanded in many tantric texts - under certain circumstances - should be motivated out of "compassion", you are still in conflict with the strict command not to kill found in the original Buddhist teaching. In Tibetan history "compassion killings" have had a great weight in legitimising the liquidation of political rivals and have left behind bloody traces. Also ist the ritualistic consumption of human flesh, as described in the Kalachakra-Tantra, is against all Western ethics. The human flesh is usually taken from the dead and, writes the tantric grand master and Shambhala King, Pundarika, in his traditional Kalachakra commentary, is the "meat of those who died due to their own karma, who were killed in battle due to evil karma or and due to their own fault, or that of robbers and so forth who were executed". He continues with the advice that it is sensible to consume these substances in the form of pills. The flesh of innocent people, who have been killed as sacrifices to the gods, out of fear, as part of an ancestor cult, out of desire (greed) or for money, is laden with "unspeakable sin" and may not be used in the rituals. "But which falls in the bowl unasked-for is without unspeakable sin" - and may therefore be put to use. (In: John Ronald Newman - The outer wheel of time: Vajrayana Buddhist cosmology in the Kalacakra Tantra - Madison 1987, 266 f.).

5. Dalai Lama, although you insist that Tibetan Buddhism is a celibate and woman-friendly religion, women are sexually abused and treated in a sexist manner during the higher rites of the Kalachakra-Tantra in order for the initiates to achieve spiritual, worldly and patriarchal power.

At the highest levels of the secret initiations of the Kalachakra-Tantra sexual rites are practised, the objective of which is to transform sexuality into worldly and spiritual power. According to the original texts the women used for such rites represent a form of sexual energy, whereby the age is of great importance. One begins with eleven year old girls. In levels 8 to 11 of the initiations only one woman is used; in levels 12 to 15, the Ganachakra as it is known, a total of 10 women participate in addition to the "master and his initiates". It is a duty of the pupil to offer his Lama these women as a gift. Women are purely "energy providers" for the male participants in the Kalachakra-Tantra and, at the end of the ritual, are of no further importance. How can such rites be understood in the light of the equal rights for male and female which you have often publicly confessed to uphold? The secrecy surrounding these sexual practices in the upper levels of the Kalachakra-Tantra has led to wild speculations and suppositions.

6. Dalai Lama, why do you forbid public discussion of the secret rites of the Kalachakra-Tantra to the extent of threatening "the punishments of hell" to all those who might talk?

Dalai Lama, you yourself state that it is forbidden under threat of the punishment of hell for the initiates to talk openly about the secret rituals in the Kalachakra-Tantra. In this context, you threaten a pupil in a commentary on the Kalachakra-Tantra "You must do what I tell to you. You should not deride me, and if you do, without forsaking fright, the time of death will come, and you will fall into a hell." (Dalai Lama - The Kalachakra-Tantra - London 1985, p. 242). Buddha, on the other hand, insisted that one should believe nothing but rather test everything through experience and with commonsense (Anguttara Nikaya I, 174). You have also made this statement many times. Why do you forbid an open discussion about the secret tantras and the secret rites of the Kalachakra-Tantra? Why do you not make public the secret rites?

7. Dalai Lama, why do you have maintained contact with people from the ranks of religious fascism and sect-terrorism such as Bruno Beger, Jean Marquès-Rivière, Miguel Serrano and Shoko Asahara, all of whom have been inspired in their visions and behaviours by the content of the Shambhala Myth?

You have stressed many times that the basic principles of Mahayana-Buddhism are in line with western democratic ideas and human rights. This is not true, however, of many ideas contained within tantric Buddhism, which is at the centre of the Tibetan religion, if these are taken literally. It is a fact that the Shamhala Myth (Shambhala war) in the Kalachakra-Tantra has led to aggressive behaviour, megalomaniacal visions and conspiracy theories both in the history of the Asian peoples as well as in that of religious fascism and neo-fascism. Already in the SS-Ahnenerbe, where Heinrich Himmler's ideologies were born, there was an interest in the content of the Kalachakra-Tantra and the influential fascist and cultural philosopher Julius Evola saw in the mythic world of Shambhala an esoteric centre of a sacred warrior race. This vision is today still firmly anchored in the religious ideas of the international far-right movement. Alone this fact makes it necessary for you to distance yourself clearly from the war-mongering Shambhala Myth and to remove this from the texts. Instead of this you have made efforts to maintain friendly contacts with people such as the ex-SS man Bruno Beger (convicted as helping to murder more than 86 people), the SS-collaborator, well-known expert on the Orient and Tantra Jean Marquès-Rivière (in his absence convicted and given the death sentence for turning Jews and Free Masons over to the Gestapo in France); the founder of an esoteric Hitler movement and ex-Chilean diplomat Miguel Serrano (promoter of the SS-mystic) and the Japanese terrorist and admirer of Hitler Shoko Asahara. As the Kalachakra-Tantra is against all religions which have a Semitic origin, it can be misused very easily by the extreme right, anti-Semitic groups for their racist propaganda and has been used in this way.

8. Dalai Lama, why have you not written an exegesis on the problematic statements in the text of the Kalachakra-Tantra, which distances itself from the warmongering, intolerant, sexist and buddhocratic statements in the Tantra?

Until now there has been no clear exegesis from you which distances itself from the potential for violence contained within the Kalachakra-Tantra texts. To the question in how far it is possible to make an exegesis of these old texts, you have given contradictory answers. On the one hand you say: "even Buddha's statements must be critically tested. Some of his statements should not be taken literally and must be interpreted in a different way. We have the freedom to not just accept certain statements; rather in certain circumstances we must interpret them in a new light." (Dalai Lama, Augen der Weisheit - Freiburg 2002, 178). On the other hand, this is contradicted by your following statement: "The Tantras and Sutras are the ultimate authority, we aren't. Unless there is a scriptural reference in them, there is no need for us to make these things up and assert that Buddha had in mind an analogy with Western religion or science." (in: The Berzin Archives - Kalachakra Teachings HHDL 2. htm) Why has to date no complete, correct and commentated translation of the Kalachakra-Tantra been made available in a Western language, although you have already initiated tenthousands of Westerners into this ritual?

 http://www.trimondi.de/EN/deba03.html

If requiring credibility is an insult then I am guilty 21.Dec.2003 19:41

Joe Mickey tibetanphotoproject3@hotmail.com

Gringo
I did not say critics are inherently untrue? and if you can clip that quote from me please bring it forward. I do ask that you provide your sources and what it is that makes them credible. Just because they have an opinion that agrees with yours and you are right, we don't know who or what you are.

Let me ask you, on your list, You had only one source for three days. have you read all of these opinions. Or are they just google titles that appeal to you? Who are they, who financed their research?

I have in fact noted every new resource you have provided. In time more than three days) I will add any and all new credible sources and informatio to my continuing research and part of the process is to understand who my source is, who finances my source and what organizations if any they belong to.

Now for the umteenth time I will apologise to you if my isnsitance on knowing the credibility of your sources is a bother or a personal insult. To simply accept your sources at this point is not my style. I like to know where their point of view is generated. I am sorry you consider any challenge to credibility a personal insult. So far you have claimed to be a picture of a dog. Pardon me if I am skeptical of the rest of your information. I am guessing you are not a dog but beyond that, you provide nothing for any reader to be sure of.

Now, since you do not support certain Tibetans to define their own culture. Who and what would you allow to be acceptable to defining Tibetan culture?

Would your remove their religion, and therefore centuries of art and texts...and a huge portion of centuries of their educational institutions? Can you please define that culture you would allow to continue. And I ask again. remove the Dalai Lama from the last 50 years of Tibet's history and where would the voice for Tibet be on the World stage?

Still happy not to put the readers through this with a private conversation at  tibetanphotoproject3@hotmail.com

From my talks to groups and organizations.
"Do not misunderstand, the Tibetan culture, is not a perfect culture, it has all the frailties of any other social or religious system ever developed on the planet and within that system you can find all of the human sins... but it is the Tibetans' culture and they have a right to determine their own way in the world. Beginning in 1949, the Chinese government, which is not the same as the Chinese people, began to take away the right of the Tibetans to determine their own culture that had evolved over centuries according to the anthropological needs of their nature and the remote land the inhabit."

"Tibetans have no economic or military power, they are largely a symbol. We have destroyed the American Indian, the Aborigines and countless other indigenous people. There is still time to get it right for the Tibetans. In this process they too have evolved. They fled to India and built a refugee community from the ground up. One of the government in exile's first effort was not to build a religious school but a secular school that with little resources, was the first attempt to help prepare Tibetans in exile for a different world."

"No doubt there are problems. There have been Lamas who prefer the trappings of their position of power and have spent time building elaborate temples and there have been Tibetans who have concentrated on the political needs and policies that are needed to help gain support from a vast array of organizations need to help the refuge population... this is not a religious quest for me as I am at best a skeptical agnostic but a human one... I have read the writings of many Tibetans and my correspondence with the monks has been personally rewarding as It has been to many Americans if you look at the Dalai Lama's standing on the best seller list. I took on this project because I felt I had received a great deal and The Dalai Lama is the main voice that brings recognition to the Tibetan cause...this project helps develop another voice, from regular Tibetans who are married and have families and to monks who have chosen that life and who feel that is the best thing they can do to preserve the Tibetan culture. Make no mistake there are people who do not believe the tibetans should have this voice."

"Finally, I have no money to be doing this... so before I decided to commit to this, I researched because I know that the Tibetans have as much an agenda as anyone else for their cause... Tibet has its good and its bad because its human... but it is noble because of what it represents and what it aspires and what it inspires. For that, we deserve to give something back."

Joe Mickey, Co founder of the Tibetan Photo Project

has this man given enough to decide the culture he wants to live in?
has this man given enough to decide the culture he wants to live in?
Joe Mickey / founder of the Tibetan Photo Project
Joe Mickey / founder of the Tibetan Photo Project

Post script on 8 questions to the Dalai Lama 21.Dec.2003 20:41

Joe Mickey tibetanphotoproject3@hotmail.com

Just at the base of my research about the Authors of the 8 questions for the Dalai Lama... It is not gringo star but

The Concepts they explore appear to be well researched and certailn well articulated and worth a look and even possibly adding to the study

Victor & Victoria Trimondi are the Authors and Gringo Star simply lifted this copyrighted material from a website. But wait there is more, These are only Pen names and as paraphrased from the Bios pen names so they could publish on this concept anonymously...

Still it creates interesting questions but I will need to know more (Unlike Gringo star who will steal anything that suits his postion) about the authors before I go running around attatching my name or the project to their writtings.. this is why you have to be so careful on the internet dear readers. Again, Gringo Star is unimportant in all of this but his methods should make the reader beware.

I repeat dear readers
From my talks to groups and organizations.
"Do not misunderstand, the Tibetan culture, is not a perfect culture, it has all the frailties of any other social or religious system ever developed on the planet and within that system you can find all of the human sins... but it is the Tibetans' culture and they have a right to determine their own way in the world. Beginning in 1949, the Chinese government, which is not the same as the Chinese people, began to take away the right of the Tibetans to determine their own culture that had evolved over centuries according to the anthropological needs of their nature and the remote land the inhabit."

"Tibetans have no economic or military power, they are largely a symbol. We have destroyed the American Indian, the Aborigines and countless other indigenous people. There is still time to get it right for the Tibetans. In this process they too have evolved. They fled to India and built a refugee community from the ground up. One of the government in exile's first effort was not to build a religious school but a secular school that with little resources, was the first attempt to help prepare Tibetans in exile for a different world."

"No doubt there are problems. There have been Lamas who prefer the trappings of their position of power and have spent time building elaborate temples and there have been Tibetans who have concentrated on the political needs and policies that are needed to help gain support from a vast array of organizations need to help the refuge population... this is not a religious quest for me as I am at best a skeptical agnostic but a human one... I have read the writings of many Tibetans and my correspondence with the monks has been personally rewarding as It has been to many Americans if you look at the Dalai Lama's standing on the best seller list. I took on this project because I felt I had received a great deal and The Dalai Lama is the main voice that brings recognition to the Tibetan cause...this project helps develop another voice, from regular Tibetans who are married and have families and to monks who have chosen that life and who feel that is the best thing they can do to preserve the Tibetan culture. Make no mistake there are people who do not believe the tibetans should have this voice."

"Finally, I have no money to be doing this... so before I decided to commit to this, I researched because I know that the Tibetans have as much an agenda as anyone else for their cause... Tibet has its good and its bad because its human... but it is noble because of what it represents and what it aspires and what it inspires. For that, we deserve to give something back."

Joe Mickey, Co founder of the Tibetan Photo Project

This man has given enough to decide his own culture
This man has given enough to decide his own culture
Joe Mickey / Co-founder of the Tibetan Photo Project
Joe Mickey / Co-founder of the Tibetan Photo Project

sorry for the double posting 21.Dec.2003 22:33

Joe Mickey tibetanphotoproject3@hotmail.com

Sorry for the Double postings... I thought I had halted the first

While I am here, in reasearching Victor and Victoria Trimondi the source of Gringo Star's "borrowed" piece of Copyrighted material on 8 questions for the Dalai Lama
In and interview, the pen-named "reporters" or "researchers" also allude to the power of a Tibetan sand mandala that might be partially responsible for the cause of 9/11 and the destruction of a building duing a world's fair in the 30's as one of the potential signs of danger emenating from Tibetan Buddhism.


It is far too early to discount their well articulated writtings but this claim about the danger of Sand Mandala's does cause question to credibility and motive.

Readers I know this is tedious> I have invited Gringo star to a private conversation ahd he clings to both is anonymous persona while continuing his positions. If he makes public comment it deserves response.

But I am happy to move this conversation into private at any time.

Joe Mickey, Co-Founder of the Tibetan Photo Project


My $.02 worth 21.Dec.2003 23:07

xyzzy

Just skimmed through the exchange between Joe and Gringo. Was going to type in a somewhat lengthy response of my own, but then came across the following essay by Michael Parenti: http://www.swans.com/library/art9/mparen01.html (which I generally agree with except for a very strong suspicion that the Maoists were quite a bit worse than Parenti makes them out to be).

I've always been skeptical of the claims of how good things were in Tibet before the Maoists invaded. One of the books in my family's library was Richard Halliburton's two-volume Book of Marvels set. It was a set of travelogues published in the 1930s; it had been a gift given to my dad when he was a kid (boy am I dating myself saying I had parents who were children during the Depression). In the midst of a totally apolitical work, Halliburton's description of Tibet as a monstrously unequal feudalistic theocracy stuck in my mind (and still sticks to this day). That was in the '30s; well before any Communist revolution in China or the invasion of Tibet.

Before anyone denounces me or other critics of Tibetan feudalism as Maoist sycophants, I'll close with a quote from Parenti's essay:

...To denounce the Chinese occupation does not mean we have to romanticize the former feudal r?gime. One common complaint among Buddhist proselytes in the West is that Tibet's religious culture is being destroyed by the Chinese authorities. This does seem to be the case. But what I am questioning here is the supposedly admirable and pristinely spiritual nature of that pre-invasion culture. In short, we can advocate religious freedom and independence for Tibet without having to embrace the mythology of a Paradise Lost.

Portland

2 cents well spent, xyzzy 22.Dec.2003 00:38

GRINGO STARS

The absurd ad hominems from Joe "Noble Enlightened Path" Mickey aside, Joe is a western proponent that "quaint" feudal, violent, oppressive, sexist systems are all well and good, just as long as it is *only* third worlders who are forced to suffer under such vile systems - not us, the "enlightened" westerners!

The either/or black/white "you're with us or against us" type Dubya-vision exhibited by "Joe Mickey" is inherent in many organized religious dogmas, Tibetan Buddhism being only one of many. For example, "Joe's" insistence that I am probably a "Chinese web watcher" because I am opposed to a Tibetan theocracy. (?!?!?) This kind of thinking has no place in government, although sadly Dubya's black/white rears its head regularly in our so-called government. Look at the havoc wrought in the Middle-East theocracy of Israel and the problems of religious government become even more evident. Must Tibetans suffer under a Lamaist theocracy yet again? Americans are falling prey to a multi-million dollar celebrity-fueled campaign to keep Tibet quaint, just lik ethey like it, so they can enjopy their fiction of a mystic exotic land. There is a book by Peter Bishop entitled "The Myth of Shangri-La: Tibet, Travel Writing and the Western Creation of Sacred Landscape";
 http://www.american-buddha.com/myth.shangri.htm#THE%20DALAI%20LAMA%20AND%20THE%20MONGOL%20THUGS

Parenti is an excellent historian. He just came out with an interesting People's History of Ancient Rome, by the way.
Here are more sources;

An Interview with Victor and Victoria Trimondi:
 http://www.trimondi.de/EN/interv03.html

The warlike, undemocratic nature of Lamaism;
 http://www.trimondi.de/Kalachakra/dec.eng..htm

links concerning the dangerous shortcomings of Tibetan Buddhism/the Dalai Lamas;
 http://www.american-buddha.com/CULTS.htm#CULTS

The Dalai Lama justifies WWII, the Korean War, and the Afghani and Iraqi invasions/occupations;
 http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/mld/ledgerenquirer/news/nation/6738361.htm

I was a Tantric sex slave for "celibate" Lama Kalu Rinpoche, under threat of death - by June Campbell;
 http://www.trimondi.de/EN/deba02.html

Re: 2 cents well spent 22.Dec.2003 12:19

xyzzy

I'm not so sure how much Mickey is consciously adopting a Bushist black/white dogma with respect to Tibet and how much he's in shock from his beautiful myth about pre-1949 Tibet getting brutally assaulted by a gang of ugly facts.

Looking at his site, it seems to mostly be pictures of the Tibetan exile community in India. I don't notice any explicit calls for a return to the theocracy of the past.

Obviously, things are pretty bad in Tibet. Every year, Tibetans brave conditions in fleeing Tibet that make the ones braved by the lesser number of Cubans fleeing Castro look like a picnic in the park. Many freeze to death in blizzards while attempting to cross passes into Nepal. Those that don't often end up needing to have fingers or toes amputated because of frostbite.

(And, strangely, the same corporate media that makes such a big stink about the dictatorship in Cuba and people's attempts to escape it is strangely silent on reporting people's attempts to escape the Chinese dictatorship. Guess dictatorships that US economic elites have profitable businesses relationships with are OK. But I digress.)

Portland

Gringo Star has been a lesson on the creation of propaganda 22.Dec.2003 13:54

Joe Mickey, Co-Founder of the Tibetan Photo Project tibetanphotoproject3@hotmail.com

Dear readers

If you have come this far, for all its frivolity you have received a lesson in the construction of propaganda. In this case is clumsily created by the faceless pen name of Gringo Star. When asked to provide identity or qualify his background on his position, he insults readers with a picture of a dog that he says is Gringo Star.

By following his posting sequence, we first see he offers a position. It is only when the validity is challenged, he supplies only information sources that support his point.

For example, his source of the pen-named authors, Victor & Victoria Trimondi, he conveniently makes no mention that the authors also point out support for the message of peace and compassion by the Dalai Lama. Gringo Star only presents that which supports his only position.

Confirmation of Gringo Star's sources is, for the most part, an extensive process.

In journalism, knowledge of the source is required to understand who the source is, their background, agenda and who if anyone finances and publishes or otherwise controls their efforts. Initial research of Victor & Victoria Trimondi reveals that their bios and interviews are self contained or self created, and while they provide identifications for themselves, even this will not be readily available to the casual reader and therefore this is not enough to ascertain credibility.

In another example, I would certainly challenge Gringo Star's headline "The Dalai Lama justifies WWII, the Korean War, and the Afghani and Iraqi invasions/occupations;" vs. the article he presents as proof for his headline.

 http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/mld/ledgerenquirer/news/nation/6738361.htm

A reading by any balance minded person will not find the propagandist point of view Gringo Star uses in his headline to sell the Associated Press article.

It also has to be pointed out when I referred to the same source earlier in the discussion, Gringo Star said of mainstream media, "You are a member/product of the corrupt corporate press. Must feel nice to be part of a very-well-financed, self-perpetuating system of so-called information." I guess if Gringo Star thinks the "corrupt corporate press," can be manipulated to fit his propaganda then its okay

In another example, Gringo Star lumped The Dalai Lama's Nobel peace prize with Henry Kissinger and the nomination of George Bush. The intelligent reader will ask if this means there is no person on the Nobel Peace Prize list that Gringo Star would agree with or is this another selective application to fit his propaganda?

And so on for Gringo Star's selective understanding or propaganda against Tibet and Tibet in exile.

To borrow from another comment that appeared on this topic and I am close to closing

((( "My $.02 worth" 21.Dec.2003 23:07
By xyzzy

Before anyone denounces me or other critics of Tibetan feudalism as Maoist sycophants, I'll close with a quote from Parenti's essay:
( Readers who visit this artilce will note that this article, while presented by another anonymous poster, is very well footnoted for its sources, see  http://www.swans.com/library/art9/mparen01.html as supplied by xyzzy)
...To denounce the Chinese occupation does not mean we have to romanticize the former feudal regime. One common complaint among Buddhist proselytes in the West is that Tibet's religious culture is being destroyed by the Chinese authorities. This does seem to be the case. But what I am questioning here is the supposedly admirable and pristinely spiritual nature of that pre-invasion culture. In short, we can advocate religious freedom and independence for Tibet without having to embrace the mythology of a Paradise Lost." )))

Readers, keep in mind that because Gringo Star saw this as a supportive statement he offered cheers. The only fault I find with the post is it comes from an anonymous poster.

The Dalai Lama has expressed similar sentiments o the above quote in several writings, tapes and venues in the era of present day. This is the evolution of a man who found himself first placed in the position at the age of 4.

From my own talks to groups and organizations I have phrased a similar sentiment as follows:

"Do not misunderstand, the Tibetan culture, is not a perfect culture, it has all the frailties of any other social or religious system ever developed on the planet and within that system you can find all of the human sins... but it is the Tibetans' culture and they have a right to determine their own way in the world. Beginning in 1949, the Chinese government, which is not the same as the Chinese people, began to take away the right of the Tibetans to determine their own culture that had evolved over centuries according to the anthropological needs of their nature and the remote land the inhabit."

"Tibetans have no economic or military power, they are largely a symbol. We have destroyed the American Indian, the Aborigines and countless other indigenous people. There is still time to get it right for the Tibetans. In this process they too have evolved. They fled to India and built a refugee community from the ground up. One of the government in exile's first effort was not to build a religious school but a secular school that with little resources, was the first attempt to help prepare Tibetans in exile for a different world."

"No doubt there are problems. There have been Lamas who prefer the trappings of their position of power and have spent time building elaborate temples and there have been Tibetans who have concentrated on the political needs and policies that are needed to help gain support from a vast array of organizations need to help the refuge population... this is not a religious quest for me as I am at best a skeptical agnostic but a human one... I have read the writings of many Tibetans and my correspondence with the monks has been personally rewarding. If you look at the Dalai Lama's standing on the best seller list, It has been to many Americans. I took on this project because I felt I had received a great deal and The Dalai Lama is the main voice that brings recognition to the Tibetan cause...this project helps develop another voice, from regular Tibetans who are married and have families and to monks who have chosen that life and who feel that is the best thing they can do to preserve the Tibetan culture which has created great art and evolved great philosophy. Make no mistake there are people who do not believe the Tibetans should have this voice."

Readers that come to this site are looking for truth and simply by coming here they prove they are not gullible nor do they fall for propaganda. But, folks like Gringo Star will never be curtailed from trying to manipulate information for their own designs.

Readers who care about this issue will explore it for themselves from all sides and sources. For them, it is just as important to look at what the Tibetan situation has become as what has evolved from it. History presents a view that tells us how far a person or a nation has come. For that reason history is important to the perspective of today's vantage point.

This seems like a good place for me to close.

If you have come this far... Thank you for your participation. I hope you will visit the site and many other sites on Tibet. Certainly feel free to contact me and I welcome legitimate challenges and discussions.

Keep searching past the one-sided propaganda created by the nameless and faceless and look for the truth. Gringo star will no doubt have the last word.

Happy holidays to all.

Joe Mickey, Co-Founder of the Tibetan Photo Project

Catch a wave, have a great Christmas swell
Catch a wave, have a great Christmas swell

You know what? 22.Dec.2003 17:16

clamydia

Instead of responding much to criticism of your pet project, you constantly seek to attack the credibility of your opponent by insinuating that they are a commie web watcher, that they are anonymous, refuse to give a name, etc. Well, Mr. Mickey, you are the newcomer here, not GRINGO STARS. GRINGO STARS has been posting to this website for the year and a half that I've been coming here. I find your implied accusation that ze is a China plant to be ludicrous. Are you suggesting that for the last year and a half, GRINGO STARS has been posting a steady stream of leftist articles here, just waiting for someone to come talk about Tibet so ze can pounce on them? That's just silly, but it's not as if you would know that since you are not local to this site. And, your assertion that the fact that GRINGO STARS likes to read socialist/communist writings makes him biased in favor of modern-day china, whose social structure doesn't even come close to a true communist/socialist state, is silly as well. You cite sources such as NBC, CNN, CBS, PBS, all of whom have a history of lying, distorting facts, suppressing news, etc, and expect people to take you seriously? HA! I think that the point a lot of people are trying to make is that since it seems that the majority of Tibetans weren't doing too well under the old regime, why go to efforts to bring it back? China may be oppressing them, but they're just going to get oppressed all over again if the old Monarchy comes back. The Dalai Lama was a dictator. How many historical dictators can you remember whose people were better off because of them?

.. 22.Dec.2003 17:43

clamydia

"it is the Tibetans' culture and they have a right to determine their own way in the world. "

You speak as though the Tibetan people would get to unanimously decide what sort of government they want, when one suspects that the only people calling the shots in the hypothetical event of Tibetan emancipation would be the same sort of oppressors that they had before.


Why is that newbies always use the same tired arguments against Gringo Starrs? 23.Dec.2003 03:39

Aunt Sam

Clamydia: Why is it that new posters always use the most hysterically funny arguments to defend themselves against Gringo Starrs? It would be funny to look up how many times people tried the whole, "I'm not anonymous but you are" post against Gringo Starrs.

Um, Joe, you want to talk sexy? I am a cat trapped inside a puppies body and I am three thousand years old. Meow. Here's a picture of me and my address now why don't you tell me who you really are? We can exchange pleasant emails back and forth until we meet each other at a coffeshop wrapped in sackclothes with mummy logos.

Yea, you're argument would have flown maybe the first year the internet was around.

The best part was you're archaic expression of Reader :

Readers, you have to see that the internet is not anonymous, but Gringo is!

Actually I wanted to use it to.. I do love novels from the 1800's. But isn't it funny how we viewed asian cultures when that expression was popular. It's just a though for you so you can go back and rethink your own interpretations of Asian cultures today...

Yellow Peril, doesn't substitute for manifest destiny, ya know?

The Free Tibet Movement is A CIA plot 23.Dec.2003 06:24

Joe Mickey Mouse

I.m not here to defend the Capitalist Chinese but anyone who would look into the history of the so-called FREE TIBET MOVEMENT would see that it is a creature of the CIA and Joe Mickey must be too.Because of his defense of a slave owning system and its god-king who still takes money from the CIA.

When you can't prove something-its a CIA plot 23.Dec.2003 12:54

zjdks

Guys-lets lighten up on the CIA plot for everything-makes us sound paranoid

Maybe instead of lightening up we should research 23.Dec.2003 13:41

GRINGO STARS

...since research bears out the CIA connection, which was admitted by the Dalai Lama himself in the New York Times.

How about some solutions for Tibet from Gringo 23.Dec.2003 17:50

zjdks

Gringo, So now you your arguement is that Joe Mickey is a Cia Plot?
isn't the NY times part of the "currupt media" and when did they suddenly become your become your best friend and source of truth and if it is then it does not seem that the Dalai Lama is trying to hide anything but could we have his entire quote?

You have plenty of criticism... thats the easy part. What are your solutions?

More constructive, perhaps you would tell us your solution for Tibet both in Tibet and In exile and in the real world. And of course you have a timeline.

Here's my solution for Tibet 23.Dec.2003 18:35

clamydia

Take a random sample of people from various parts of Tibet equaling 20% of the population. Break them up into groups of five. Have them brainstorm for a month on what type of soicopolitical setup they would like to see in Tibet. Compile the results, and come up with a system that is the best representation of the desires of the people involved. Tweak it until everyone agrees it's OK. Hold a vote in Tibet in which every womyn, man, and child over the age of five gets to decide upon it. Repeat process until said setup recieves a majortiy approval from the popular vote. Then, implement it. The process above should be carried out by a third party, such as a committee from Sweden of Iceland or somewhere nice, and then supervised by a second third party, and the supervising party should be supervised by another party, and the entire process should be as transparent as possible. If people want true social change in Tibet, then they should lobby for China to allow this.

I seriously doubt that Joe Mickey is a CIA plot... 23.Dec.2003 22:40

GRINGO STARS

...since Joe Mickey is so clumsy and unconvincing (including subsequent posts under different names, transparently so).

The NY Times, Joe, can be counted on to accurately be a mouthpiece for its ruling class buddies, such as the Dalai Lama. That's the NY Times job, after all. It is primarily its enemies who it misquotes and misrepresents. You must approach the corporate press with full understanding of what it is and its aims are.

I never claimed to have a solution. But... Clamydia's solution is far better than both Chinese and Lamaist rule, both of which have proved to be oppressive (although Lamaist rule far more so). Democracy would be a step in the right direction. As long as the PEOPLE of Tibet are deciding, rather than their historic oppressors.

A little help please from Gringo on the 8 questions to the Dalai Lama 24.Dec.2003 14:22

Joe Mickey tibetanphotoproject3@hotmail.com

I am requesting a little help please from Gringo Stars on the 8 questions to the Dalai Lama

Let see if we can be serious and constructive... Regarding the post of 8 Questions to the Dalai Lama posed by Gringo Stars ... I am asking Gringo for a bit of help regarding this interpretation of the Kalachakra-Tantra. (This interpretation of ancient text seems completely out of context with volumes of modern works. The official site for Kalachakra in Toronto in 2004 is  http://www.kalachakra2004.com/ )
The Authors work under a pen name of Victor and Victoria Trimondi.
Their Bios and interviews are self generated so can you give me a little help

1) A little help with locating independent sources on their background, how the interpretation was conducted, who published their material and who financed the publication.

2) Since this interpretation appears out of joint I will contact via email 2 university Tibetan study programs. Further, I will email two Tibetan contacts who are independent of each other and snail mail a Tibetan monk who is also studying independently and request information and interpretation of this text. What I would ask from you is any information on the original text Victor and Victoria Trimondi worked from and any other sources you used to conclude this interpretation was accurate.

My end on this will take a while, but as you have pointed out this is the Internet so before I would discuss this further or include it in my research or presentations this is the process I will be going through. I am happy to accept your sources and information here or we can do this through email. I am at  tibetanphotoproject3@hotmail.com

Visually and respectfully,
Joe Mickey, Co-founder of the Tibetan Photo Project

P.S. naturally this request for help with research information is open to all
Happy Holidays

Photography by Tibeans creating a voice for Tibetans
Photography by Tibeans creating a voice for Tibetans

at last! 24.Dec.2003 17:12

GRINGO STARS

I am pleased that you finally take such criticism seriously. Taking criticism is a crucial step in self-improvement, and questioning oneself and ones own beliefs is a necessary part of living consciously. Let me know what the two professors and the one Lamaist monk say about the 8 questions. You are a big boy, Joe, and I know you can research the Trimondis easily enough as I have so you don't need me or anyone else to baby you or walk you through it. It took me all of 5 minutes to find out their real names. Simple stuff.

The Trimondis are German, by the way (not Italian like their noms de plume). The Trimondis have written a book which is also entirely online called The Shadow of the Dalai Lama: Sexuality, Magic, and Politics in Tibetan Buddhism. It can be read online in its entirety here:
 http://www.trimondi.de/SDLE/Contents.htm

Information about the book - Shadow of the Dalai Lama;
 http://www.trimondi.de/EN/expose1.html

Reviews of the book - Shadow of the Dalai Lama;
 http://www.trimondi.de/EN/med01.html
 http://www.trimondi.de/EN/med02.html

It is the Trimondis who penned the 8 questions for the Dalai Lama, and as they have both been initiated into the 4 higher "secret" initiations of which they speak, they in fact know what they are talking about. All 8 questions, in detail, are laid out at;
 http://www.trimondi.de/EN/deba03.html

Gringo it is a sincere request for help 24.Dec.2003 17:58

Joe Mickey tibetanphotoproject3@hotmail.com

Gringo, I have made a sincere request for your help. I had also hoped to change the tone and quality of this pissing-match dialogue.

If in all the volumes of material on Tibet, the only sources for your 8 questions are from the same German people who work under Italian Pen Names and who created the material you have published then it is not material I can include in my research or my presentations. If you can help with this confirmation then I have no problem adding it to my research and my presentations. I think you have provided an important text if it can be proven.

Please excuse that I have doubts about material from people who work, not only under anonymous pen names, as you point out the pen names are even designed to change their nationalites. Not exactly reliable sources in the manner in which I do things.

Believe it or not, this is not about you. You have tossed in a grenade and its deserves full scrutiny.

If you are willing to accept only one source then you are working by faith. If that works for you fine. Please accept that what we do is not done that way.

Given the nature of the allegations being made according to this interpretation that it should not be tossed around lightly.

It is a lot of work to confirm information. I will continue with my eforst as outlined in my previous note "Since this interpretation appears out of joint, I will contact via email 2 university Tibetan study programs. Further, I will email two Tibetan contacts who are independent of each other and snail mail a Tibetan monk who is also studying independently and request information and interpretation of this text. What I would ask from you is any information on the original text Victor and Victoria Trimondi worked from and any other sources you used to conclude this interpretation was accurate."

Wanting to know the truth is never "Bullshit." I am sorry if you feel that way.

And with that, Merry Christmas


I'm not yer pop 24.Dec.2003 19:59

GRINGO STARS

Wanting to know the truth is not Bullshit. But you casting me in the light of someone who is trying to "incite" instead of help IS bullshit. And you know it. You are the one who set the tone of our correspondence. Perhaps if you didn't want things less than rosy-happy-joy-joy, then you should have acted accordingly from the outset. "The tone" of our discussion is not important to me. I am not a controller-of-discourse like you are. I seek to discuss Tibet, its people, Tibetan Buddhism and the Dalai Lama's hypocrisy in seeking a so-called better future for Tibetans, NOT discuss you or me or other matters of non-importance.

I do not accept one source. All the sources which I have cited support the view I have. That's how I came to my view. To say that I "accept one source" and act on faith is more disinformationalist BS from you.

By all means, research the Trimondis. I already have. I'm not yer pop so don't expect me to hold your hand, especially after all the bullshit yopu spread so thick. I hope you find the truth.

The Trimondis have not tossed their allegations lightly. They have made their life work into it. As soon as you do ANY research on this subject, you'll know this. I see you already say the Trimondi's pen names are "designed to change their nationalities" as if this is a sinister plot to be Italian instead of German. I am starting to suspect that you are an elaborate hoax/joke because that one was pretty funny. Already spreading rumors? I know, I know, when someone DARES to say naughty things about the beloved God-King, then there darn-tootin BETTER be some splainin to do, Lucy!

I have been seeking to change the quality of this exchange for its entirety. But idiots will always bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience, as the saying goes. So here I am making an entire comment without mentioning the real subject. You win! (I never knew it was a "pissing-contest")

Perhaps you should be researching instead of doing more whining. Just a thought.

Gringo its not about you 25.Dec.2003 12:16

Joe Mickey tibetanphotoproject3@hotmail.com

Believe it or not, this is not about you. you really have to stop looing at everything as if it is about you... We know you are "enlightend," and "honest and decent" and that you "are not god"... You have told us, not sure why you needed to tell us, but ok .. If it helps you, I will even accept it without confirmation even if you are the source... but now its enough about you.

This is opposite views and finding and proving the truth out of respect for every one who uses this site to gather valid information for lager purposes. Either you are in or you are out when it comes to the truth. Apparently from your last post you are out.

Just thought I would ask.

A voice for tibetans through their own photos.
A voice for tibetans through their own photos.

drop your ego, Joe (like the monks might recommend) 25.Dec.2003 19:03

GRINGO STARS

You lie: I never once said that I am enlightened, Joe. Scroll up, genius.

You lie again: I also never said I don't write to incite. Scroll up. I try to incite you to re-examine your half-baked beliefs you accepted with little criticism from the picaresque monks.

The reason I post such nonsense as "No I am not god" is because YOU actually post that I consider myself a god. Don't play dumb and pretend you "don't know why" I say that.

You are welcome to believe whatever you like about me; that is none of my concern. Your lies and personal insults to me make personal correspondence between us an unattractive prospect.

I see you are still concerned with discrediting anything I say rather than dealing with the issue at hand, or researching the issue (which you claim interest in). That is your choice. Your ego is powerful and you don't like your intelligence insulted; I understand that. For that reason alone you will apparently never let anyone besides you have the last word. Please continue lying about what I say, as it will help any IMC reader masochistic enough to follow this thread well aware of what type of person is impressed with your beloved God-King.

Whatever you do, don't refer to the DL or Tibet (or anything besides me) since that may betray the one-sided information you have gotten on the subject. And PLEASE follow your plan and do NO thinking on your own without consulting one of the wise, inscrutable, cute, easily-amused monks that you use for your postcard imagery.

Not interested in helping, we got it 25.Dec.2003 19:26

Joe Mickey

We all got it. Your not interested in helping.

So far, the only thing you consistently fight to confirm is what is said about you and what is said by you about you. How did I know that's what you would worry about? Have the last word Then go to bed happy. Merry Christmas.

P.S. For the record, I am working on the confirmation on your 8 questions for the Dalai Lama. Colleges are of course on vacation. Snail-mail to monks in india who do not have email takes weeks. Real research actually takes quite a bit of time and patience. I think the readers here deserve the effort... many of them are working on important issues and good information is very important to those efforts.

For me its not enought to just hit a website and then jump to all their confirmations about themselves and their pen names and call it truth. I wish it were that simple.
Finding the truth is a slow process
Finding the truth is a slow process
Shouting louder does not make a lie truth
Shouting louder does not make a lie truth
To know the streets you have to have lived in the streets.
To know the streets you have to have lived in the streets.

How will we ever get along without you Joe? 25.Dec.2003 23:33

GRINGO STARS

Please also ask your monks and professors about lamaist rule pre-1959. Ask the Indians about the God-King's rule in the exile camps of Northern India after his exodus and how he treated "his" people, as well.

The first and most important thing I have fought to confirm are the facts that Lamaist rule was feudal, exploitative, sexist, homophobic, oppressive and very brutal. That was before all your lies, which I (sap that I am) responded to as if they weren't blatant and cynical attempts to discredit anything I post. I worry about the truth too much to let liars like you slide, Joe.

Once again, you imply that I did incomplete research in your last paragraph (the one before your pithy bumper sticker/postcard sentiments) which I did not at all do and you have no evidence of what kind of research I did at all. Yet you choose to lie again. Why? Because the facts I present are harmful to the God-King's cause of cozying up to Tibet's CURRENT oppressors in a cynical bid to become governor over Tibet? That seems the most logical explanation for your fallacies and ad hominems. Please consult all the dogmatists you know before (not) making any ideological leaps, so that your decision will properly reflect your God-King's wishes, Joe.

Bill Gring0 is Bush with his labels 26.Dec.2003 11:27

yabbadabbadoo

Bush uses labels like "unpatriotic" to silence folks. Bill Gringo likes to use labels to try to silence people. Bush wst to install govenments with only the indiginous people he approves of and Bill Gringo likes to do the same. Wait!!! My god!!! Bill Gringo is Bush

Comments on Tibet Gringo's authorative and unbiased source 26.Dec.2003 20:36

From the pages of Revolutionary worker

A few notes from Gringo Stars unbiased and authorative source The Revolutionary worker
Table of contents 1:
From A World to Win, Celebrate the 50th Anniversary of the Chinese Revolution, by Carl Dix, National Spokesperson for the RCP,USA, RW #1083, December 17, 2000
* Without State Power, All Is Illusion... With State Power, A World of Things Becomes Possible, By Bob Avakian, RW #1082, December 10, 2000
* Visionary Socialism: On the Anarchy of Capitalism and the Need for Social Planning, by Raymond Lotta, RW #1071, September 24, 2000
*

Korean War—June 25, 1950 to July 27, 1953:Tearing Up the U.S. Paper Tiger in Korea
*

Part 1: How 300,000 Chinese Troops Snuck into Korea and Kicked the Ass of the U.S. Armed Forces, RW #1059, June 18, 2000
*

Part 2: People's Volunteers and the Strategy of People's War, RW #1060, June 25, 2000


* An Interview with Mary Lou Greenberg, Breaking All Tradition's Chains, A Glimpse of the Future from Maoist China, RW #1045, March 5, 2000
* Mao Tsetung: The Art of War, 
Part 1: Luring the Enemy in Deep, RW #1030, November 14, 1999 
Part 2: The War Against Japanese Aggression: The Battle of Pinghshingkuan Pass, RW #1031, November 21, 1999
* When the People Had Power: The Economic Miracles of Maoist China, By Raymond Lotta, RW #1029, November 7, 1999
* October 1949: The Liberation of 1/4 of Humanity: MAO MORE THAN EVER--The Chinese Revolution and the Hope for the Future, RW #1024, October 3, 1999
* How Collective Childcare Liberated Women in Maoist China, by Li Onesto
* Mao Tsetung, The Greatest Revolutionary of Our Time
* The Red Guards: Hong Wei Bing 1966
* Chiang Ching: A Revolutionary Life
* How Maoist Revolution Wiped Out Drug Addiction in China, by C. Clark Kissinger
* The True Story of Maoist Revolution in Tibet by Mike Ely

The Peoples War in China 1927-49
* The Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution 1966-1976
* Posters from Revolutionary China
* Mao Tsetung Picture Album (drawings and photos)
* The Tiananmen Events 1989

The Demise of the Barefoot Doctors and the Health Crisis in China's Countryside, RW #1096, March 25, 2001
* The Towering Crimes of Deng Xiaoping by RCP Chairman Bob Avakian, a speech from January 29, 1979
* Chairman Bob Avakian on Revolution and Counter-Revolution in China
* The Suppression of the Tiananmen Square Rebellion 1989
* The End of Deng Xiaoping: Enemy of the People obituary, March 2, 1997
* Deng Xiaoping's Free Market Nightmare, March 2, 1997
* July 1st, 1997: The Return of Hong Kong and the Capitalist Road in China
* Women in China:  Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, March/April 1999

Or for more unbiased news you have to enjoy the following notes of a doctorine of peace under maoist thinking:
Part 10: Guns, Drums, and Keyboards,
Part 8: Learning Warfare by Waging Warfare in the West
ah what the heck: is China the greatest thret to the West?
Part 4: Rifles and a Great Vision, RW #1017, August 8, 1999 

Part 5: The City Squad RW #1018, August 15, 1999

Part 6: General Strike in Kathmandu RW #1019, August 22, 1999

Part 7: Preparing the Ground in the West RW #1020, August 29, 1999

Part 8: Learning Warfare by Waging Warfare in the West R

Of course the report on the Dalai Lama by Gringo Stars is accurate and unbiased. it comes from this magazine. there isn't a drpo of chinese propaganda anywhere in these reports.

there is no such thing as an "unbiased source" 26.Dec.2003 21:06

GRINGO STARS

 http://rwor.org/

By all means, check out the link and read all the articles listed in the comment above. Thank you for the excellent collection.

None of the above is "Chinese propaganda" because the Maoist revolution ended in 1976 when reactionary capitalists seized power. The above IS Maoist in nature, and there is nothing wrong with Maoism. Mao brought the Chinese empire kicking and screaming into the 20th century with amazing reforms that gave power to the working-class that it took from the ruling-class. Up until 1976 the Chinese government was one of the most progressive on earth. These days, the present Chinese regime demonizes Mao just as the corporate media here in the US does.

Justice sometimes demands class war in order to give the working-class the resources needed to live a decent life, resources which are systematically denied in the capitalist system. Remember that those why cry "peace" includes the ruling class here in the US, who fear class war more than any "terrorist threats" from the outside, and in fact treats many class warriors as "terrorists".

"No war but the class war" is an excellent slogan. So is "No justice, no peace."

Review of Gringo's story with Victor and Victoria Trimondi 26.Dec.2003 21:52

Excerpt from the standard ( Austrian / not the US) tibetanphotoproject3@hotmail.com

In Case you missed it, Gringo Star put his name to 8 questions for the Dalai Lama by Germans working under and Italian Pen-Name in another unbiased broaddside attack on the Dalai Lama.
Here is an excerpt tranlated from one reviewer in Austria.


The standard, 9 March 1999 (Austrian publication ) ( This is not the Standard that everyone knows in America.)
"No, the old Tibet was not the Shangri La, to which Westler high-stylize it so gladly. Feudalismus, bad states and doubtful practices openly can be discussed with members of the Tibetan government-in-exile. Also in the west over it serious works appeared. With the available book however it already krankt in the beginning, which, with all self-praise of the authors, is simply unscientific. Is served a polemik, which considers respectablly investigated facts dispensable."

Thats why we can never accept a source whose only source of confirmation is made from themselves. If your mother says she loves you... check it out...This does not disprove Gringo Star but I am sure glad I didn't lob it up in the air as mine and the unbiased gospel truth... Joe Mickey

Search for the truth
Search for the truth