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China is the greatest threat to the future of the West

financed by Western Investment and consumer spending, China's dictatorships are rising as dangerous economic and military powers. Tibet's history reveals an important perspective on the nautre of China's leadership
Tibetans understand the nature of China's dictators
Tibetans understand the nature of China's dictators
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The Tibetan's experience offers insight into the nature of future leadership in China

• Mr. Hu Jintao, former Party Secretary of the Tibet Autonomous Region (TAR), was installed as the General Secretary of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) at the 16th National Congress of the CCP held in Beijing November 8-15, 2002. He replaces Jiang Zemin as Chairman of the Party, and assumed Jiang's position as State President at the National People's Congress (NPC) in March, 2003.

• Mr. Jintao made much of his political reputation during his four-year tenure as China's Party Secretary of The Tibet Autonomous Region where he oversaw a brutal crackdown on the Tibetans and the imposition of martial law in 1989.

• An example of China's rising power on the world stage was demonstrated when the Nobel Peace Prize winning Dalai Lama, Tibet's spiritual leader in exile , visited Australia in May 2002. For fear of upsetting deals with the Chinese, prominent Australian leaders refused to meet with one of the world's great spiritual leaders.

• China has had its impact on American freedoms. At the end of President Clinton's final term, a photographic book documenting the presidency was contracted for printing in Hong Kong. The Chinese government confiscated thousands of copies of the book because it contained a photograph of President Clinton's meeting with the Dalai Lama. Time magazine was tossed out of China for stories that China viewed as negative towards the government. This had a chilling effect on the parent companies, of media organizations, that are trying to do business in China. For example, when Disney wants to distribute a movie in China or build an amusement park in Hong Kong, for success its news holdings carry very little in depth or negative material on China.

• Within China, the current move is to label dissenting views both in China and Hong Kong as unpatriotic. Terrorist is the new catch-all charge applied with horrible consequences to Tibetans and other ethnic groups, individuals and popular religious leaders currently under Chinese control.

• The importance of a long range understanding of China's Government to business and investors: As China begins its leadership change to rule by Mr. Jintao, the Tibetan perspective on China and the nature of its future leadership is an extremely relevant and a valuable asset and tool for investors and those planning or doing business in China.

• For a look at the reality of what relations with China will amount to it would be wise to talk to a Tibetan. Chinese President Hu Jintao is the apparent to the seat of power in China. He built his political career and hard-line reputation as China's man in Tibet where he enforced a brutal crackdown followed by imposing martial law against the Tibetan people. In Hu's speeches to business audiences in the U.S. in June Mr. Jintao's biggest pitch was not the value of the Chinese market as much as it was China's huge, unprotected and underpaid and non-benefitted work force.

A Brief History Beginning in 1949 and in a violent and escalated invasion in 1956, the Communist China created by Mao Zedong invaded and subsequently occupied the country of Tibet. For China this was the gain of land mass roughly equal to the size of Europe.

With its continued occupation of Tibet, Communist China works to wipe out the culture of Tibet. Communist Chinese have destroyed all but 13 of the 6000 monasteries that made up the higher education and university system of Tibet. In the process, China took centuries old artifacts from the monasteries and placed many of them for sale on the lucrative international art market. Thousands of Tibetans die while performing forced labor.

Prior to the modern day invasion of Tibet by the Communist Chinese Tibet had spent centuries emerging from a feudal history to become highly developed spiritually and peaceful Buddhist society. The Dalai Lama is considered by the Tibetan people to be both the secular and spiritual leader of Tibet. Tenzin Gyatso, the current Dalai Lama has lived in India since 1959 where he has formed a government and community in exile.

Through a very elaborate process In the Tibetan Buddhist religion, the current Dalai Lama was located in the-remote Tibetan village Takster at the age of 4. As a result of an extensive testing and investigation process he was recognized by Tibetans as the important reincarnation in a long series of Tibetan Leaders and thus his title, Fourteenth Dalai Lama.

In 1989, The Dalai Lama accepted the Nobel Peace Prize on behalf of the Tibetan people for their attempts to find a peaceful resolution to the conflict with China. For years the Dalai Lama has presented a peace plan designed to maintain the integrity and autonomy of Tibetans and their culture while allowing for coexistence with the Chinese inside Tibet. The government of China has refused to consider the plan.

Today Communist China continues to occupy Tibet and nearly 1/5th or 1.2 million Tibetans have been killed or died from Communist Chinese policies of imprisonment, torture, starvation and forced labor.

An extensive report on human rights issued by the US government, in early 2000, reported that human rights in both China and Tibet have deteriorated further in recent years. Dissidents inside China report abuses and atrocities that echo reports that have been confirmed and documented among the Tibetan refugee population.

Torture and sodomy by prison guards with electric prods, handcuffs that self tighten when prisoners move, food depravation that leaves prisoners looking for food in their own feces are standard practices towards Chinese and Tibetan prisoners. Often prisoners that are executed by a single bullet to the back of the head. The person being executed is often strangled with wire and there are reports that some have had their tongues pulled out with meat hooks to insure against a final word of defiance. The executed are also reported to be butchered for organ sales on the lucrative transplant markets.

Equal Opportunity oppressor

Forty years after invading Tibet, the Communist government of China remains consistent in its repression both in China and in Tibet.

In 1999, the government began a major crack down on a meditation group inside China known as Falun Gong. Thirty-five-thousand members were rounded up in a single sweep and as prisoners were released, familiar stories of torture (termed " reeducation" in China) emerged.

Also in 1999, China refused to let the Pope appoint Catholic Bishops and Cardinals. One 80 year old Bishop who disagreed with the government policy of state appointed clergy simply disappeared. In December 1999 there was word that 11 Tibetans died in a single Chinese prison, 5 of those killed, were Buddhist nuns. In the year 2000, China increased its efforts to silence, control and shut down religion.

In Dec. 2001, the government began a program of bulldozing churches. In the first half of 2002, an estimated 19,000 Buddhist practitioners have been displaced when remote religious enclaves were torn down and the leaders arrested.

In November 2002, a monk was reported to have died in a Chinese prison from the results of injuries suffered during years of torture. In Dec. 2002, two popular monks who advocated a free Tibet were sentenced to death on terrorist charges. Capitalizing on the events of 9-11, China has adopted the terrorist label for charging minorities and dissidents with crimes.

Abuse of Children

Interviews with refugees in India has revealed that Chinese police have tortured Tibetan Children as young as 6 years old. A new report created from these interviews entitled "The Fabric of Fear" was scheduled for release in December 2000 with release to the U.N. in 2001 (view at ttp://www.tibetjustice.org .

In the complex line of succession of the Dalai Lama, a young boy recognized as the Panchen Lama may hold the key to locating the next Dalai Lama. The boy, Gendun Choekyi Nyima, has been detained by the Chinese since 1996. The Chinese have named their own choice as Panchen Lama. The boy who was six years old when he was abducted by the Chinese has not been seen since.

Current conditions

Annually, approximately 1500 - 3000 Tibetans still make a dangerous journey through the Himalayas to seek asylum in Nepal and India. Natural elements and the risk of imprisonment if caught by the Chinese military make escape extremely hazardous. The extreme cold often leads to severe frostbite and lost limbs.

In July 2000, under pressure from the United States the World Bank denied China $60 million dollars for a resettlement project that would take China further in its efforts to overrun the Tibetan population with more Chinese settlers. China is funding the project and has said it will not be deterred by the West.

While China has killed 1/5th of the Tibetan population, many see this current effort by the Communist Chinese to flood Tibet with Chinese while adding programs of forced sterilization of Tibetan women as a continued effort to dilute the native makeup and culture of Tibet towards complete extinction.

China is said to have one of the worst environmental records on the planet and during the occupation of Tibet, China has extended these very damaging practices into the landscape of Tibet in the forms of mining, deforestation, disposal of nuclear waste, water pollution and destruction of native animal species. It is estimated that 4,000 drowned in a single flood in 2001 due to the deforestation projects in Tibet.

Several world leaders, including American Presidents, speaking on behalf of Tibet and the plan put forth by the Dalai Lama have asked Chinese leaders to open talks directly with the Dalai Lama. While seeking trade agreements, Chinese leaders have made several promises to leaders around the world to hold direct talks, but, they have yet to keep any of these promises.

On July 2, 2000, the Dalai Lama spoke to an audience on the Washington Mall estimated at 50,000. For years, he has traveled the world to raise awareness and financial support in an effort to maintain the rich culture of Tibet that is often described as the most advanced spiritual cultural on earth. In Exile, this culture has taken great steps to out-grow the historic feudal systems.

The Tibetan heritage is being kept alive among the 150,000 refugees that followed the Dalai Lama to India. A much smaller number of Tibetans are living in exile through out the world and many work to help coordinate both political and cultural activities and awareness efforts on behalf of the Tibetan government and citizens in exile. At the urging of the Dalai Lama, the Tibetan Government in Exile has been converted to democratically elected leadership.

In 2000, the United States has voted to normalize trade relations with China. The debate appears to be split, 50/50, that more trade with China will either cause China to open itself to more democratic thinking and freedom or trade will finance more tyranny by the ruling Communist government against citizens of China and the people of Tibet.

The Government of China has had to face many formal condemnations from world governments, including the United States, of its occupation and treatment of Tibet. At the same time the international community has been short on sanctions or concrete action against China. The withdrawal of $60 million by the World Bank is much more the exception than the rule when it comes to the international community standing behind its words of concern for human rights for Tibetans and Chinese citizens.

China has fallen behind in making efforts to float their currency and maintains an unfair advantage in developing cheap labor. Further, China only pays lip service to many of the other promises it made to join the WTO.

Groups of Tibetan Lamas and monks are on extended tours and give performances of Tibetan Culture as it developed and existed for centuries prior to the occupation of China.

According to one tour director, Tenzin Norbu, the intention is to introduce and preserve original Tibetan Culture that is not allowed to grow or freely function in occupied Tibet, The tour also openly operates as a political tool for the Tibetan Government in exile. At the end of each performance, Norbu presents a brief history and update on conditions of Tibetans in Tibet and he urges the audience to take citizen action that will prompt the United States Congress and the President to apply pressure on China to create more freedom For Tibetans.

Norbu pointed out that when the tours started in 1988, few people attended. Today, several teams of Tibetan Buddhist monks and Lamas regularly perform to audiences in venues that fill at between 1200 and 2500 seats.

Are all the Tibetan efforts effective? During the congressional debates to normalize trade relations with China it was important for congressional representatives on both sides of the issue to put into the record that they had the support of the Tibetan Dalai Lama. This was done in the usual political fashion of neglecting to quote statements by the Dalai Lama to back their claims of support.

Beyond cultural tours and a the work of a tireless but aging leader, Tibet has the support of human rights organizations. Tibetans present much of their political case through the "International Campaign For Tibet". Tibet also has a great deal of celebrity support, most notably Actor Richard Gere. An annual rock concert created by the Beastie Boys provides a high profile among a younger set.

(No endorsements or associations are made or implied. Research all organizations before donating or supporting)

NOTE: My hit meter shows that China checks in on this article and will link to the site from here. Negative anonymous comments or comments with no ability to contact should be viewed with a skeptic's eye.

homepage: homepage: http://www.tibetanphotoproject.com


Merry Christmas! 16.Dec.2003 11:22

Red Suspenders

How about this? Theres whole stores in the mall in which every single product is from China.
The best way to deal with this especially when no American-made or first or second-world made is available I have found is to make your own gifts, cards and decorations. Go to the library or if youre lazy search in google. Take a freakin' pottery class. Really, presents made by your own hands are always more special than plastic crap from Wal-Mart.

No way can our government possibly protect us against competition from a communist state structured so folks work for thirty dollars a month. Time for us to take a little personal responsibility.

The West is the greatest threat to the West 16.Dec.2003 12:16

tenhut

As if all world governments didn't form an oligarchy which is largely responsible for the immiseration of the masses and the destruction of the planet. The leaders of true blue Amerika and red China sip tea together while laughing all the way to the bank. They hardly care about anything except their own personal happiness in the very near future. They don't care about you, me, or even their own children. They are fucking up our one and only home and don't seem to care if they do even grasp the concept.


more background information on Tibet and China 16.Dec.2003 18:32

GRINGO STARS

The organization of the Dalai Lama issued a statement on October 1 admitting that it received millions of dollars from the CIA during the 1960s to send armed squads of Tibetan exiles into Tibet to undermine the Maoist revolution. According to the New York Times (Oct. 1), the Dalai Lama's organization said they received $1.7 million a year to arm, train and pay their contra forces. This statement also revealed for the first time that the Dalai Lama himself was a paid CIA agent during this period, receiving an annual paycheck of $186,000 from the U.S. intelligence services.

This Tibetan contra war was started in 1959, after feudal forces attempted a counterrevolutionary uprising in Tibet. The Dalai Lama fled his throne as god-king of Tibet and went into exile in India. The CIA then used the Dalai Lama as the frontman for their covert operations into Tibet and western China. Over a decade later when the CIA called it off, this covert war had been a complete failure. The Maoist movement had developed significant roots in Tibet during land reform and the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution, while the Lamaist/CIA operation had developed very little support among Tibet's people. The Lamaist forces leading this covert operation were notorious for their corruption and passivity.

For 30 years, Maoist revolutionaries have claimed that the Dalai Lama and his family worked with the CIA, and directed an exiled mercenary army that carried out sabotage, espionage and assassination in Tibet from bases in neighboring Bhutan and Nepal.

Over the same period, the Dalai Lama has promoted himself as a man of peace and a fighter for justice. Many people in the West have been taken in by this, and have even been influenced by Tibetan Lamaism's extremely conservative form of Buddhism. A movement has developed in the West supporting him--often believing that he represents the cause of self-determination and justice in Tibet. Meanwhile, after capitalism was restored in China following Mao Tsetung's death in 1976, the focus of the Dalai Lama's work has been to seek an accommodation with the new revisionist rulers in Beijing that would secure a position within their power structure for himself and his followers.

Now the Dalai Lama's own organization has confirmed that in the 1960s he was involved in the covert CIA military operations that were fighting to extend U.S. domination in Asia. The only defense raised by the recent October 1 statement is that the Dalai Lama did not personally enrich himself from those CIA funds. The statement claims that he used his CIA salary to finance offices in New York and Geneva to promote the Lamaists' feudal cause. In other words, they admit that the Dalai Lama was a paid CIA agent, but deny he was a corrupt CIA agent.

 http://rwor.org/a/firstvol/tibet/tib-in.htm
 http://rwor.org/a/v20/980-89/985/tibet.htm

Dalai Lama has not denied western involvement or effort to defend his country 16.Dec.2003 19:01

Joe Mickey tibetanphotoproject3@hotmail.com

Another way to look at the Dalai Lama's acceptance of Western help, which has not been denied by the office of the Dalai Lama, is as follows in the short version.

The U.S, in it 50's effort to blunt communism's spread, offered military assistance to tibet in the form of training and some arms in the 50's. Given that the Chineese occupation that began in 1949 was one of growing distruction, rape, pillage and murder adding up to 1.2 million Tibetans. It is natural to assume that Tibet, thinking that it had American support, would mount a defense.

America bailed for lack of serious interest. Times and generations change. The world in the 50's is not the world today. Has Europe evolved? Has China evolved? Has the West changed? Then, why is Tibet held and viewed only by the standards of another era?

The problem is that China has continued its distruction of the Tibetan culture and whatever tibetan culture is, should its evolution not belong to the Tibetans?

Also worth noting, during this time the Dalai Lama was a boy leading a nation in his early 20's
How many 20 year olds have the faculties or experience to make all the correct decisions for the future of a nation?

And what is it the Chinese had to fear from the Tibetans?
And what is it the Chinese had to fear from the Tibetans?

Regarding the comment by "Gringo Stars" 16.Dec.2003 19:20

Joe Mickey tibetanphotoproject3@hotmail.com

I will offer this. Its an anonymous comment. It makes a valid point in the way that Fox news makes valid points... It reports from a preconcieved conclusion to design its perspective. iI cites a website with uncrededite articles that while you can read them on the web, they do not take communication on the Web.

Well, if that all adds up to credible for the average reader, Great. and fox news is "Fair and Balanced. "

I think the most notable aspect of this form of journalism, is that it hold Tibet responsible for acts by other countrues it could not control, while it holds Tibet in a time warp while it allows other coutnries to advance. And while I can go on. It seems to ignore that China's brutality runs through Tibet and through the motherland, which also brutalizes many of its own people.


...which makes the Dalai Lama a hypocrite by his own measure 16.Dec.2003 19:22

GRINGO STARS

Or is it OK for the DL to ask others to perform mass violence on his behalf? Doesn't that make him a hypocrite in the light of his openly stated tenet of "strict nonviolence"? Why has the DL's China-demonizing tour not always thanked the CIA for its funding (that he still reveives even today)? Is he ungrateful as well? Or is he unaware of his status as pawn in the game of imperialist bickering? How has the DL taken the US to task for its much more brutal occupations of countless more countries than China ever even visited?

Response to Gringo Star 16.Dec.2003 20:00

Joe Mickey tibetanphotoproject3@hotmail.com

Heres the big question. Your position is based on an uncredited article at a site that does not credit its authors or orignators. The site you base your position on does not respond to its own readers through the medium it uses. This is very much like the newspapers in China, the ones that would ppublish an article on congress from the Onion and run it as truth.

But to adress your entertaining argument:
At the time of CIA involvement, the Dalai Lama was a person in his 20's working from a relatively issolated society at a time of much more primitive communication.

Ask yourself: Was the West different in the 50's in its approach to communisim?

He was the leader of a country, was he wrong to seek help in defending the people who were bein slaughtered and in seeking the help wasn't he acting defensively?

Today he is a world traveler of 67 and Nobel Peace Prize winner. Do people learn through their lives? Perhaps you are 20 and if not, are you the same person you were when you were 20? That answer relies on the variety of you experience since you were 20.

As for Gringo Star
What do readers know of your background and whats your beef with Tibet? Are you a zealous christian or a Chinese web watcher?

You create an entertaining discussion but you offer no credibility.

A search of my Website:  http://www.tibetanphotoproject.com and we site our sources for this article which are lisited at the end of "Tibet at the end of Extinction"

What's your claim to credibility for yout position. Gringo, I don't dispute the core facts in your argument ...but its the slanted conclusions that have the same value as a Fox "fair and balanced" report that are questionable.

Your souces of information is uncreditied and unless I want to do snail mail, your source is conveniently unavailable to respond to any challange and it will not accept any comments, public or privately.

You, Mr. Miss or Mrs Gringo Star, write under a ficticious name and you insult readers if you ask them to take your position as truth. A person who believes they are speaking the truth does not have to hide from their position.

Finally, and this is your most disgusting conclusion, like the Chinese, you seem to think that anyone but the Tibetans should be able to govern and design their own culture.

Rare 1930's photo donated to the Tibetan Photo Project (Wave is near my house)
Rare 1930's photo donated to the Tibetan Photo Project (Wave is near my house)

Answers to Gringo Star 16.Dec.2003 20:37

Joe Mickey tibetanphotoproject3@hotmail.com

GRINGO STARS Wrote anonymously (( **((I have placed my annsers as such,Joe Mickey))***)

Or is it OK for the DL to ask others to perform mass violence on his behalf? ((***( You position this question about the CIA training of Tibetans in Arizona in the late 1950's to manipulate an answer... You could have asked, facing the deaths of 1/5 of the Tibetan Populaiton at the hand of the Chinese... and with almost no army what defensive options did a 20 your old leader of Tibet have and what options were being offered... bu your phrasing is designed to manipulate to an answer you wnat to get))))***)

Doesn't that make him a hypocrite in the light of his openly stated tenet of "strict nonviolence"? (***(((the Dalai Lama himself has written that violence met with violence may have short term positive results for the majority of people effected I would have to say that Gringo Stars has never read or heard the Dalai Lama Speak and his assumptions on the dalai Lama's position is just that ... an assumption))**))

Why has the DL's China-demonizing (((Again, Gring Stars demonstrates that he has never heard or read the words of the Dalai Lama... he Speaks of China in very pragmatic terms and even admits confusion over the issue of Boycott China because of its effect on the average Chinese merchant*))))***tour

not always thanked the CIA for its funding (that he still reveives even today)? (((**How long do you say thank your for an effort that the U.S. abandoned to leave the tibetans as virtually unarmed targets??)))**)))Is he ungrateful as well?

Or is he unaware of his status as pawn in the game of imperialist bickering?(*(*(* The Dalai Lama has no illusions that his situation is of significance to the major players. what he hopes for is that world leader aspire to the right of self determination for all countries and cultures)*)))

How has the DL taken the US to task for its much more brutal occupations of countless more countries than China ever even visited? (*(*( The Dalai Lam's positon is consistant in that violence is the least desirable option and he has said that at every opportunity*))))*))

((((**((((Readers, pay attention. Gringo star is involved in a game of manipulation. he is anonymous, You can not contact him directly. His sources are uncredited and you can not contact them.))***)))

Its a fun argument but by the lack or sources it has no credibility.


To Joe Blow 16.Dec.2003 22:54

Aunt Sam

Joe Mickey, you offer an extreme point of view. You state that China is the greatest threat but other tahn pictures you have doen nothing to really prove this. You often manipulate things in your statement as well, at first saying iot would be OK if Tibet accepted money from the US but then to go on and say that teh CIA/ US left him high and dry.

I llike what Utah Philips has to say about it. "Worshipping the ruling elitist class in exhile."

No, the fact that tehy lost the ruling elists class is not what makes China a danger TODAY. What makes thenm a danger today is their increasing industrialization without regard to labor rights, to environmental impact, and their increasing struggle to have corporate rule remove the resistence to these plans.

I for one have always found Gringo extremely informed. He also provides links and back up to much of what he says. Though I have on occasion said I disagreed with him I have never distrusted him.

I do hope that you will send I picture of yourself to the FBI with your list of hobbies, likes and dislikes, amd your long term goals. I for one would rather make it slightly more difficult. Because I am not deluded as to my own culpability in regargds to Native Americans, African Americns, and indigenous laboreers everywhere. And I for one am working towards changing the greatest threat to the globe: US.

Joe Mickey is right 16.Dec.2003 22:58

Hedvall

How can Gringo Stars defend the Red Fascist government of China? Has he forgotten all about the squashing of human rights at Tiananmen Square? Well, I suggest that Gringo Stars move to China.

Am I defending the Chinese government? No. 17.Dec.2003 00:59

GRINGO STARS

I am, instead, pointing out that the Dalai Lama is a hypocrite. To attack one is not to defend the other. But I guess I can expect such black/white thinking from someone involved in organized religion. Typical.

No, Joe, I am not a christian. Christians are just as much soul-killing politickers-of-spirituality as Buddhists or Lamaists are, and I prefer not to live my life by dogma. Spirituality is highly personal and sacred, but religion is dogmatic and political and has no place in the soul. Such is my not-humble opinion.

Joe, what makes you less anonymous than me? Anyone can have a false "real"-sounding name and a false email address and a false picture of themselves. We are on the internet, not in person. I used to include my email with every comment and article until I had a nasty slew of email attacks motivated by apologists for a certain middle east theocracy that now brutally occupies Palestine. So be it. Their e-terrorism was effective enough to make me not include my email address after that. And considering that I comment hypothetically on possible violent revolution within the US, I don't want to mistakenly get on any lists on th eterrorism taskforce.

After wading through your clumsy syntax (you aren't a native English-speaker I hope) and your clumsier ad hominem attacks on me, I noticed that you didn't really answer any of my questions, yet you did come up with some evasions and excuses on behalf of your beloved God-King. How loyal of you. I hope I address as many of your excuses as possible.

You mentioned Fox news as if I somehow use their tactics of unfairness and imbalance. But it is interesting to note that Fox news, including O'Reilly, Hannity, Gingrich and all the other fascists on that network agree with YOU on the Tibet issue; that poor lil DL is being oppressed by mean ole commie Red China. Don't bring up analogies when they are completely 180 degrees false, Joe. It's just plain silly.

Anyways, it was the DL himself, that God-on-Earth, who actually repeatedly invoked "strict nonviolence", even using those words in English, yet violated that same tenet. That is called hypocrisy. I understand if you don't believe such a labor-friendly organization as the Revolutionary Worker. As an apologist for the capitalist class they must seem a bit spooky to you and your master since they don't agree with you and the DL and Fox news and the rest of the corporate media on the Tibet/China issue. That's OK. I simply choose not to belive the corporate press when their lying can benefit them. And you have made your choice.

If the DL has made his choice in his youthful 20's out of duress to be protected by the CIA/USA, then why is he still such an ideological lapdog for US interests? His concession that the Iraq invasion might have positive benefits seems outrageous given his pithy statements about STRICT nonviolence, don't you think? Excuse my tone; I truly despise hypocrisy and believe that organized religion actually inspires hypocrisy. Many sexually abused Catholic altar boys share my opinion. So when the DL flaunts his hypocrisy so openly it kind of gets my goat. I'm glad that even you can see the legitimacy of "the core" of my argument, as you call it.

China has taken a different tack than the US in the past. One that is far less genocidal, numerically speaking. One that is far more working-class-friendly as well. Beijing's Stalinist bureaucracy has been playing at catastrophic capitalist reforms for quite some time now (the Chinese government has been anti-Moaist since 1976, when the DL started petitioning the new capitalist government for his old job back), which inspired (amongst many other things) the labor-friendly Moaist student uprising in Tianamen square (and its violent reaction), and has been deformed since its 1949 inception by the Chinese Communist Party, the nationalist bureaucratic caste that rests atop a collectivized economy. Such an anti-Marxist "communism" has meant many things, and one of them is being profoundly different than the capitalist western society, or the capitalist pre-Mao Chinese era of murderous warlords, rapacious landlords who cruelly exploited the peasants as if they were property, bloodsucking moneylenders and a wretched bourgeousie. Footbinding disappeared and women were gained an enormous leap forward. China advanced from its abject peasant backwardness. Huge changes were made. Now China controls its population and bicycles are the rule rather than the exception from earth-killing automobiles. To pretend that China is a monster out of control is to ignore the world-oppressing empire that it could easily be today if not for the labor-friendly progress it has made.

To act like the Lamaists are blameless victims of Chinese aggression is to ignore the popularity of the Maoist revolution within Tibet at that time, and also to ignore the brutality of the feudal lifestyle of the peasant in Tibet pre-Mao.

The Dalai Lama actually said that WWII, the Afghanistan invasion/occupation, and the Korean War all "helped protect civilization and democracy" which is a steaming crock of BS.

The DL has admitted (in the Oct. 1st 1998 NY Times) that he has been paid as a CIA agent even up to the 60s. He was older than his 20s by then, wasn't he?

I personally don't think that the world needs another theocracy, even if his power will *supposedly* be given to an elected regent (as if the feudal God-King will deign to be ignored in his own government).

A good resource;
 http://rwor.org/a/firstvol/tibet/TIBET6.HTM

Joe, if you take exception to this information please contact
Revolutionary Worker Online
Box 3486, Merchandise Mart, Chicago, IL 60654
Phone: 773-227-4066 Fax: 773-227-4497

Final 17.Dec.2003 11:12

Joe Mickey tibetanphotoproject3@hotmail.com

Dear Gringo Star
First this is a journalistic site so therefore it follows that the name and background of the Author offers credibility. No we are not in person but your news magazines, your newspapers all provide Authors and infact many papers now include a direct contact to the reporters via email.

Your source offers neither authors or contact via the meida they use and you can bet I will include them in my resesearch. If you had done your research at  http://www.tibetanphotoproject.com you would find that this is not a religious effort on my part. Read "the Story of the Tibetan Photo Project."
You would find that I list my soruces of research read the notes at the end of "Tibet At the End of Extinction"

Gringo,
Just the fact that you make accusations that I can disprove with a simple visit to my site as listed above points out that while you claim not to live by dogma, you do automatically disclaim any value to any thought from any religion ... that in itself is a form of living by dogma.

Instead of looking for truth, you look for points of view that do not challenge your own.
did you actually read the article above? Its based on over 3,000 news reports from major media.

Who is working from a position of Dogma here?

The trouble with your postition is that Tibet is made up of people who have constructed a society and that society in its evolution is fluid and changing. You want to stick it in a box in 1959 because at that moment in history it best fits the concept you want to have.

That is nothing more than fear.

Please visit http://www.tibetanphotoproject.com
Please visit http://www.tibetanphotoproject.com

Dear readers, Dogma, Aunt Sam and Mr. Gringo 17.Dec.2003 12:05

Joe Mickey tibetanphotoproject3@hotmail.com

Dear readers. It is really impossible to argue with the likes of Aunt Sam and Mr. or Mis Gringo Star. But the rediculous comments leave you muttering to yourself as you walk doen the street

From Mr. Gringo he professes that all religion is dogma and all dogma is evil
To quote Mr. or Miss star
"No, Joe, I am not a christian. Christians are just as much soul-killing politickers-of-spirituality as Buddhists or Lamaists are, and I prefer not to live my life by dogma. Spirituality is highly personal and sacred, but religion is dogmatic and political and has no place in the soul. Such is my not-humble opinion. "

Dear Readers, I hope that you recognize that Mr. or Miss Star's blanket view of religion coupled by his or her own spiritual superioriety is nothing less than DOGMA

Then throughout his entire argument Mr. or Miss Gringo Star has had only one source to back his or her position
Again I quote: " Joe, if you take exception to this information please contact
Revolutionary Worker Online" Again one souce for one's belief is following DOGMA and while I will research this source as well as the several thousand other sources I researched for my Article and pull the common thread in it and discard the opinions, I would venture a guess from the title of the publication that the opinions and conclusions are based on a political DOGMA

Now about the anonymous Aunt Sam
Quote
"Joe Mickey, you offer an extreme point of view. You state that China is the greatest threat but other tahn pictures you have doen nothing to really prove this."

I can only suggest that Aunt Sam read more than the title and She can then go to  http://www.tibetanphotoproject .com and read Tibet at the dege of Extinction and read all the way to the bottom and read the research sources that draw the conslusion that, by looking at Tibet's history with China you see the patter of what we can expect from China's future leadership

In fact if Miss Aunt Sam read the article, she would see that by looking at China through the confimration of Tibet's history, I actually draw a sililar conclusion to her own
Quote from Aunt Sam
"No, the fact that tehy lost the ruling elists class is not what makes China a danger TODAY. What makes thenm a danger today is their increasing industrialization without regard to labor rights, to environmental impact, and their increasing struggle to have corporate rule remove the resistence to these plans."

Miss Aunt Sam is oviously more afraid of the perspective of the Tibetans than she is of the conclusion reached
One has to read more than the headlines before making an argument and one has to be willing to look at a thing from the vantage point of all perspectives.

I would be happy to carry this dialoge directly at email but both the Anon Gringo Stars and The Anon Aunt Sam do not seem to have much character to bak their anonymous statements to attempt to support their dogmatic positions but please feel free to email me. My name and My email are on my comments and at the website.


Apologies for the typos 17.Dec.2003 12:26

Joe Mickey tibetanphotoproject3@hotmail.com

I would like to offer apologies for the typos in my comment responses and any sins of syntax ... this is just written conversation. I make no claims to being a typist and given the arguments by Gringo Star and Aunt Sam my typing reflects little actual caring.

Happy holidays to all and thanks for the lively discussion and the visits to the Website.

For those that took the time to read the full text of the articles..extra kudos and thanks.

Happy Holidays, Joe Mickey
Help where you can and do no harm when you can not

Happy  Holidays
Happy Holidays

Thank you, Joe, for more ad hominem 17.Dec.2003 13:29

GRINGO STARS

My information comes from a variety of sources, mostly socialist or communist in nature. I see why you are so duped, Anonymous Joe. You actually believe in yet another myth; the myth of "objective" news with "no opinion" in it, as if it actually exists. All news is made by humans, not robots. All news is full of opinions and assumptions and prejudices. Even if many facts are presented, they still choose to leave some facts out and others in, and they arrange the facts with their beliefs in mind. As long as you are looking for "objective" news, you will find only news that is unreliable, since any honest newsperson would be upfront about their biases rather than hiding them.

Anonymous Joe, you call me dogmatic because I reject organized religion. Actually, my stance is anti-dogmatic. Since I reject dogmatism I MUST reject religion, since religions are mutually exclusive and have their own logic independent of reason. Using my reasoning abilities cannot be said to be dogmatic. How you decided that I am "spiritually superior" is beyond me since I have never considered myself that at all. Nor am I.

I spoke of Tibet and Tibetans in the past but I am concerned with Tibetans RIGHT NOW when I attack the feudal God-King the Dalai Lama. Don't feel bad, Anonymous Joe. I hate China's leader too, and the US's leader as well. and don't you think its kind of weird that the DL (tm) is so intent on accomodation with China's capitalist leader Deng Xiaoping? Wanting an accommodation with the regime that shot down protesters in Lhasa and Tiananmen and that flooded Tibet's cities with troops and Han immigrants? I thinks its a pretty lame move by a so-called "leader" that professes to care about his people. Or is this merely a youthful mistake? He is a tender 68 years young, after all.

More later.

By the way, Mike Ely is the name of the person who wrote the Revolutionary Worker series of articles concerning Tibet and its God-King DL.;
 http://rwor.org/a/firstvol/tibet/tib-in.htm
Call him up and say hi, Anon. Joe! The phone # is in my previous comment.

Pointless Gringo 17.Dec.2003 14:17

Joe Mickey / founder http://www.tibetanphotoproject.com tibetanphotoproject3@hotmail.com

I have every intention of checking out your source... its called research...

I never said the word "objective" when I mentionted the variety of my sources... again that is your own bumper sticker philosophy about the media... As i pointed out... I seacrh for the consistancies and toss ot the extra.

The Dalai Lama works in a political world based in money and might. It is what it is. The dalai Lama has also spoken about this mostly Western tag of "God-King." And points out that it is not how he sees himself.

To quote you "My information comes from a variety of sources, mostly socialist or communist in nature." Dogma dogma dogma dogma to rely on a single perspective or philosophy is DOGMA



As for your new denial of religious superioriety ... you are your own God... thats a religion and a dogma as pointed out again your own words, "No, Joe, I am not a christian. Christians are just as much soul-killing politickers-of-spirituality as Buddhists or Lamaists are, and I prefer not to live my life by dogma. Spirituality is highly personal"

This says you believe you have the only answers and you are your own god and all other religion is wrong unless there is another meaning for "soul-killing politickers-of-spirituality" with which you describe anyone who might believe other than yourself.

Perhaps you coulds go to the Website and read the interview with a lama and his view of religion and converting.  http://www.tibetanphotoproject.com/tibet4.html

Excerpt:

Q: The introduction of Tibetan cultural programs raises the interest in the Buddhist religion. This is a very complex religion. Where should Americans start if they develop an interest in the Buddhist religion?

Lama Agha:: Maybe better to follow one's own heritage. Religion is to help you have a happy mind and that is possible through each religion. Each religion suits a different mind. Like food, for some sweet; for some sour. Religion is food for the mind. To understand the profound and higher practices, one has to give up one's present life and go and study.

Again happy to take this up in private. my email is always with my postMy sources are listed at my site.


Aunt Sam called it and Gringo is right about the Dalai Lama 17.Dec.2003 15:38

tenhut

As Aunt Sam wrote:
"what makes China a danger TODAY. What makes them a danger today is their increasing industrialization without regard to labor rights, to environmental impact, and their increasing struggle to have corporate rule remove the resistence to these plans."

And in these regards they are as western as western comes. Scientific Materialism drives the red Chinese government and society just as it drives life in Amerika. The problem, however, seems to be that they still behave as if the Earth is flat and they don't care about common or even scientific sense if it seems that it will cost them some of their precious money.

As far as the Dalai Lama being a hypocrite... many non-violent peacenik types fall back on violence somewhere hidden in their pontifications. You can even find some statements that Gandhi made which seem to contradict everything else he had to say about the subject. A good study of this kind of thing is Ward Churchill's "Pathology of Pacifism". Sorry, but I don't know the web-link off hand and my computer time for the day is almost up...


I don't consider myself a God 17.Dec.2003 16:18

GRINGO STARS

I am certainly no god, Joe. Never claimed to be either. Because I dare to think for myself and say that the DL is a mere human with very human attributes, you believe I proclaim myself a god? Apparently you can't see anything in other than your own dogmatic terms. I think it's important that people see precisely how you, as a Dalai Lama apologist, deal with disagreements with your narrow worldview. Apparently you deal with it by personally attacking anyone who disagrees with you. It's important to see the political approach of the "spiritual" lamaists. It's good that readers see you ducking every issue I bring up publicly, and you instead attack me for crimes against the DL. It helps form the readers' own opinion. Although I do see exactly why you want to carry this exchange on privately instead of publicly.

It must also be noted that your war-boosting Dalai Lama is a Nobel Peace Prize winner. Just like Henry Kissinger, US advisor who invented carpet-bombing and saw to it that more bombs were dropped on Cambodia than all bombs dropped on both sides during all of WWII. Henry also is responsible for countless anti-democratic violent coups and genocides that supported or propped up US-friendly dictators all over the world. So what does this mean? That the Nobel Peace Prize is worse than useless. George W. Bush was a finalist for the Nobel Peace Prize 2 years ago.

I have read your entire site. Impressive propaganda that will undoubtedly fleece many a deep-pocketed middle-class recreational activist. Keep doing what you're doing, Joe. Nevermind the people of the world. Just concentrate on achieving the DL's goal of becoming the feudal God-King he was raised since age 4 to be. Poor guy. A God-King without a country to worship him. Must be horrible. But it's OK. Right now he has his US-paid job of being cute and espousing the good sides of WWII, the Korean War, and the Afghani and Iraqi invasions/occupations until he finds a population to support his idle lifestyle of contemplation.

Its hard to have credibility without even having a real name 17.Dec.2003 23:45

Joe Mickey tibetanphotoproject@hotmail.com

If you read mainly one philosophy or single point of view, that's not thinking for your self. Thats relying on dogma, secular or religious. Certainly as Gringo states, he reads only communism and socialisim its easy to understand how he can agree with the Chinese. He can site only one source and not list their credentials, well thats certainly very much in the style of both the current and past government of China. Mao created a system that killed 30 million Chinese....
but everyone that comments here is anonymous so its really pointless to have a real conversation with ficticious people.
For a serious conversation, I am at  tibetanphotoproject3@hotmail.com
I sign my name and stand behind my research. If you want to have a conversation, bring your credentials and your name and we can do it through email.
Visually and respectfully, Joe Mickey


Search for the truth or ... A post Script 18.Dec.2003 10:19

Joe Mickey tibetanphotoproject3@hotmail.com

Dear readers,

The lesson from the above excahange... A person can either search for the TRUTH and therefore must be willing to look at all perspectives, collect the matching evidence and discard the accusations, bias and opinions...or... a person can look only for information that makes the world fit bumper sticker beliefs and slogans.

As a post script: I have offered my email for personal contact rather than continue a pissing match here. There have been no takers among a collection of anonymous posters. None of the above are willing to step forward and actually identify themselves or support their positions or sources with any actual credentials. These appear to be the type that look for information that does not challenge the world they want to believe in and it is impossible to argue with people who live in a fantacy land or refuse to challenge the reality they want to believe in.

I really do trust that the majority of readers here are in search of credible information and that this is only one tool in that search for the truth.

Visually and respectfully, Joe Mickey

 To Start, read
To Start, read "Ethics for the New Millenium," Judge for yourself

Information Overload.... 18.Dec.2003 12:11

Yeah Yeah

Since Joe Mickey didn't really have a good point to make he turned to the most basic tactic of information warfare to "win" his point by making dissenting/opposing viewpoints harder to find after his repeated innane postings. Everyone should learn a valuable lesson from this. A deluge of bullshit can obviously be more powerful and effective at getting ones point across than succint and factual good sense. Seriously, Joe seems as much a student of Goebbels as of the Dalai Lama. In this postmodern day and age it wouldn't be surprising at all. As far as posting anonymously goes... the facts and the arguments speak for themselves - much like your tidal wave of bs. BTW, about that, I must say well done again - you should be proud.

 http://www.spiritoffreedom.org.uk/prisoners/thaxton/pacifismaspathreview.html


You can not argue with someone who thinks too much information is bad 18.Dec.2003 15:52

Joe Mickey tibetanphotoproject3@hotmail.com

You can only laugh at the last ( and yes another anonymous attack)

Ok try again... look at all the sources on a topic ... ALL of them and on that last Anon email one of the two links actually worked

But lets go back to conclusive research... look at ALL perspectives and take All the common findings to create confirmation of fact and then toss all the bias contained in all positions and try to arrive at the truth...

You have two choices: you can search for the truth or you can look for lies or anything else that supports what you want to believe.

I still no takers from the anon bunch to take this up in a private conversation at  tibetanphotoproject3@hotmail.com

Readers
This is pretty much what you can expect it to be... One journalistic standard that you have to have... you have to know and confirm the source of your information before you can begin to judge the level of its validity. So far, among those who dissagree... none is valid in pubic or even in my offer to take this up in private. My experience hs shown me that these anon posters could be well meaning activists or they could be Chinese government Web watchers and we have no way knowing do we? You do have to wonder why they seem to have so much fear and hatred of simple information being presented for public consideration.

Why be afraid of information
Why be afraid of information

A challenge to the Anon Posters 18.Dec.2003 18:29

Joe Mickey tibetanphotoproject@hotmail.com

The Article "China is the greatest threat to the West" has recieved the following coverage-plus and was researched from the following sources-plus others. Rather than simply saying they are right, I would like to challenge the Anonymous critics to offer a similar list of credits to support their expressed positions and I will say that I will add these listings for future research.

To be a bit preemptive, I am guessing the anons will take segments of this list to make a new attack but thats the point here, you have to consider the source in its total form or you are simply bending information to make propaganda. So anon posters, I hope you will bring this conversation up a notch and I look forward to your list of souces that bring you to your conclusions.


Regarding the Tibetan Photo Project
•August and Sept. 2003, The Tibetan Photo Project was linked by the Asia Center at Harvard University on their home page to add to their own information prior to a Sept. 12 talk by the Dalai Lama at Harvard.

•Linked as a referance by Africa and Asia Studies at University of London

•Linked by University of Virginia Library

The Tibetan Photo Project has been featured in a wide variety of print media perspectives, Parade Magazine (mainstream, 16 million readers), SF Chronicle (Masinstream liberal 1.2 million readers), Art & Antiques (Mainstream, 170k readers), Head Magazine (Santa Barbara Underground culture 7 pages) , Popular Photography (Mainstream 1 million readers) , the Mendocino Beacon (Coastal Northern, Ca Local, 1K readers) The Lincoln County Weekly (Maine local, no circulation stats), Aquarius Magazine (Atlanta GA, New Age 50 K readers), Lake County Record Bee (Inland, Northern Ca, 10k readers), Ukiah Daily Journal and Willits News (Northern Ca inland, (readership totals not available), Colorado Springs Gazette (Circulation 175K) Colorado Springs Independent (Circ approx 100K), Coastal Observer ( Local Northern California, Clearlake Observer, Inland Northen CA, The Alumni Magazine for Colordo College, circulation 30K

Research Resource information: Research was conducted from a wide range of sources: Major news network web sites and Television stations included but were not limited to: CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, C-Span, MSNBC, National Public Radio and Democracy Now. Special programs included the C-span broacast of the Congressional debate on normalizing trade with China, PBS documentary on Nixon in China and Senate hearings on military security in Asia-Pacific. A&E Biography of the Dalai Lama, China Central Television, and the BBC. Resources in the web included but not limited to: The South China/Hong Kong Daily News, www.tibet.com, www.tibeticlt.org, www.savetibet.org and the Tibet Information Network. A hard-copy file dating back to April 1999 of approximately 3000 news paper and magazine articles from several publications including (but not limited to): Foriegn Affairs, The Brill report, The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Boston Globe, The San Francisco Chronicle, The Los Angeles Times, Associated Press Reports, Time, Newsweek, The New Yorker, Snow Lion Press, The Wall Street Journal, USA Today, The San Francisco Examiner, The Santa Rosa Press Democrat and several other publications. Books included, but not limited to "In Exile From The Land Of Snows" by John Avedon, "Tears Of Blood" By Mary Craig, and "Whispered Prayers" by Steven Harrison and "Ethics for the New Millennium" by the Dalai Lama.


Congrats, Anonymous Joe! 18.Dec.2003 22:24

GRINGO STARS

You are a member/product of the corrupt corporate press. Must feel nice to be part of a very-well-financed, self-perpetuating system of so-called information. I never said I read only socialist/communist information, I said "mostly" because I like to know all sides of the story. I have read your entire site. Have you read the Revolutionary Worker's 6-part series on Tibet?

I decline your offer for a private conversation because I see no value in conversing with such a rabid one-sided propagandist as yourself. Don't take it personally. I have no resepct for ANYone who chooses to engage in vulgar personal attacks instead of rational discussion, so it's nothing personal.

You are anonymous as well as me. We are online, genius. And just as I COULD be a Chinese govt agent (I am not) - so could also you be a US govt agent. I find it baffling that you have only attacks for those who disagree.

One sided 19.Dec.2003 11:07

Joe Mickey tibetanphotoproject3@hotmail.com

Dear Gringo,
I am sorry that you feel that listing some of my sources is an attack on you.
Did you read the entire partial list of resource credits? I am guessing you saw only the ones that help you make your point.

Do you consider China Central Television, NPR, Democracy Now ... standard corporate faire? I also used Chin'a's Wenhui Daily and Takung Pao and so far you have said your position is formed by "mainly socialist and communist" writting and you have listed and repeated only one single source and author for your position on Tibet and not listed the credentials of that one source and author of the article that completes your opinion.

Again, if challenging the credibility of your singular source of research is insulting to you, I apologise but before I believe anything about any events that I was not personally party to, i need more before I can even begin to accept anything as truth.

If you are able to belive an entire history from one article and one author, your faith comes very easy to you and simple can be good.

The offer for private dialouge remains open. I will say your comments are very similar to an email excahange I did have with a Chinese Web watcher a couple years ago. But in his case, he had the courtesey to actually identify himself. You choose to hide, so there is absolultey no chance of know who or what you are and that is a typical practice of a Chinese web watcher these days. That's your choice.

Best to you,
Visually and respectfully, Joe Mickey

Joe Mickey speaking on Tibet at the invitation of Colorado College
Joe Mickey speaking on Tibet at the invitation of Colorado College

Reviewing Gringo Quotes 19.Dec.2003 20:28

Joe Mickey tibetanphotoproject2@hotmail.com

Dear Gringo

I have rumaged through your comments and collected the following for clarification
A Gringo Quote
"China has taken a different tack than the US in the past. One that is far less genocidal, numerically speaking. One that is far more working-class-friendly as well."

Gringo, didn't Mao's "Great leap forward" when he melted and conficates all the agricultural tools result in the deaths of 30 million of his own people and then to Tibet where he killed 1/5th of the population that he claimed were people of the motherland? And I am sorry when did I compare the policies to any other group I have been talking about?



Again I quote Gringo's
" I never said I read only socialist/communist information, I said "mostly" because I like to know all sides of the story."

Actually here is what Gringo said "My information comes from a variety of sources, mostly socialist or communist in nature." he di not mentoin anything about sources that present all sides and he has yet been albe to site aonother perspective or source that he gave an open minded read to.

Please expalin how you get all sides of a story when you read "mostly" from a single perspective. But My mistake, I guess I didn't understand how big a difference there is between my mistated "only" and your "mostly." I still await your list of sources and broad and varried perspectives on this topic. Please straighten me out...some verifiable facts and sources would be nice.

Another Gringo quote
"You mentioned Fox news as if I somehow use their tactics of unfairness and imbalance. But it is interesting to note that Fox news, including O'Reilly, Hannity, Gingrich and all the other fascists on that network agree with YOU on the Tibet issue; "

I would love for Gringo to provide any transcript to verify this clim on behalf of fox news since Fox never discusses China in negative terms because owner Rupert Murdoch has a standard speech against the Dalai Lama and in favor of China. Murdoch, the owner of Fox news in fact agrees with Mr. Gringo. Mr. Murdoch has a Chinese wife about 40 years his junior and his life and media holdings have a significant propaganda design for encourageing his billions of dollars of business interests that are working in China. In Fact, I had a letter on this subject in Brills Content following an extensive article on Mr. Murdoch. Dear Gringo, please prove me wrong and show us the transcripts of the Fox shows you describe.

Another Gring quote
"Must feel nice to be part of a very-well-financed, self-perpetuating system of so-called information."

Again Gringo, no facts in your statement and a lot of assumption on your part and its a bumper sticker catch-all slice of dribble. Thats not an insult, its a challenge and my concept that you do no work with facts.

Another Gringo Quote
"Impressive propaganda that will undoubtedly fleece many a deep-pocketed middle-class recreational activist."

Another Gring quote
"Christians are just as much soul-killing politickers-of-spirituality as Buddhists or Lamaists are,"

Another Gring Quote
"I had a nasty slew of email attacks motivated by apologists"

Another Gringo Quote
"After wading through your clumsy syntax (you aren't a native English-speaker I hope) and your clumsier ad hominem attacks on me"

And finally Gringo's latest conclusion
"I decline your offer for a private conversation because I see no value in conversing with such a rabid one-sided propagandist as yourself. Don't take it personally. I have no resepct for ANYone who chooses to engage in vulgar personal attacks instead of rational discussion, so it's nothing personal. "

Readers, I could again comment, but at this point, there is no sport in shooting fish in a barrell and nothing to be gained by attempting a conversaion with the anoymous Mr. or Miss Gringo ... but you got to admit its pretty funny stuff.

Instead I will just list some of the source of my research again, renew my challenge to the anonymous critics run my email for discussion and put up a picture or two.

The Article "China is the greatest threat to the West" has recieved the following coverage-plus and was researched from the following sources-plus others. Rather than simply saying they are right, I would like to challenge the Anonymous critics to offer a similar list of credits to support their expressed positions and I will say that I will add these listings for future research.

To be a bit preemptive, I am guessing the anons will take segments of this list to make a new attack but thats the point here, you have to consider the source in its total form or you are simply bending information to make propaganda. So anon posters, I hope you will bring this conversation up a notch and I look forward to your list of souces that bring you to your conclusions.


Regarding the Tibetan Photo Project
•August and Sept. 2003, The Tibetan Photo Project was linked by the Asia Center at Harvard University on their home page to add to their own information prior to a Sept. 12 talk by the Dalai Lama at Harvard.

•Linked as a referance by Africa and Asia Studies at University of London

•Linked by University of Virginia Library

The Tibetan Photo Project has been featured in a wide variety of print media perspectives, Parade Magazine (mainstream, 16 million readers), SF Chronicle (Masinstream liberal 1.2 million readers), Art & Antiques (Mainstream, 170k readers), Head Magazine (Santa Barbara Underground culture 7 pages) , Popular Photography (Mainstream 1 million readers) , the Mendocino Beacon (Coastal Northern, Ca Local, 1K readers) The Lincoln County Weekly (Maine local, no circulation stats), Aquarius Magazine (Atlanta GA, New Age 50 K readers), Lake County Record Bee (Inland, Northern Ca, 10k readers), Ukiah Daily Journal and Willits News (Northern Ca inland, (readership totals not available), Colorado Springs Gazette (Circulation 175K) Colorado Springs Independent (Circ approx 100K), Coastal Observer ( Local Northern California, Clearlake Observer, Inland Northen CA, The Alumni Magazine for Colordo College, circulation 30K

Research Resource information: Research was conducted from a wide range of sources: Major news network web sites and Television stations included but were not limited to: CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, C-Span, MSNBC, National Public Radio and Democracy Now. Special programs included the C-span broacast of the Congressional debate on normalizing trade with China, PBS documentary on Nixon in China and Senate hearings on military security in Asia-Pacific. A&E Biography of the Dalai Lama, China Central Television, and the BBC. Resources in the web included but not limited to: The South China/Hong Kong Daily News, www.tibet.com, www.tibeticlt.org, www.savetibet.org and the Tibet Information Network. A hard-copy file dating back to April 1999 of approximately 3000 news paper and magazine articles from several publications including (but not limited to): Foriegn Affairs, The Brill report, The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Boston Globe, The San Francisco Chronicle, The Los Angeles Times, Associated Press Reports, Time, Newsweek, The New Yorker, Snow Lion Press, The Wall Street Journal, USA Today, The San Francisco Examiner, The Santa Rosa Press Democrat and several other publications. Books included, but not limited to "In Exile From The Land Of Snows" by John Avedon, "Tears Of Blood" By Mary Craig, and "Whispered Prayers" by Steven Harrison and "Ethics for the New Millennium" by the Dalai Lama.


 http://www.tibetanphotoproject.com

Joe Mickey speaking at Colorado College
Joe Mickey speaking at Colorado College

Just sorry for the typos 20.Dec.2003 17:18

Joe Mickey tibetanphotoproject3@hotmail.com

Just sorry for the typos... anyone needs a clarification and you can email me direct..
I never claimed to be a typist.

Happy holidays to all... peace.
Joe Mickey

Hapy holidays and if you are on the Coast, enjoy the Chrismas swell
Hapy holidays and if you are on the Coast, enjoy the Chrismas swell

Quick Point 21.Dec.2003 08:59

Charlene Strawn

First off, I agree with neither Joe Mickey nor Gringo Stars, but i would like to point out that in this sentence Gringo makes a valid point....

Gringo:
"China has taken a different tack than the US in the past. One that is far less genocidal, numerically speaking."

Joe Mickey:
"Gringo, didn't Mao's "Great leap forward" when he melted and conficates all the agricultural tools result in the deaths of 30 million of his own people and then to Tibet where he killed 1/5th of the population that he claimed were people of the motherland?"

I would recommend that Joe Mickey read 'A Little Matter of Genocide' by Ward Churchill, in which he details the 90-95% attrition of indigenous population by Western civilization.

Futhermore, I will take up Joe's offer for an email exchange/debate ; )

Finally, I believe Tenhut made the most valid point out of this entire thread. Thank you.

8 questions for the 14th Dalai Lama 21.Dec.2003 10:08

GRINGO STARS

Over the last 25 years thousands of people worldwide have been initiated into the highest levels of Buddhism by the 14th Dalai Lama. Fundamental to this initiation is a holy text (tantra), namely the Kalachakra-Tantra, part of which is the Shambhala Myth.

Kalachakra is Sanskrit and means "wheel of time". In recent times the Kalachakra-Tantra has been increasingly critically scrutinised. In our western debate-oriented society it stands to reason that the Dalai Lama himself answers some of these critical questions in order to ensure that any misinterpretations are corrected.

1. Why does the Kalachakra-Tantra which supposedly is a "ritual for world peace" prophesy and glorify a holy war (Shambhala war) by Buddhists against non-Buddhists?

2. Why does the Kalachakra-Tantra, which is supposedly a contributor to a world ecumenical movement and a world ethos, attack the 3 monotheist-semitic religions, especially Islam, named as "enemy of the Dharma", and swear a religious war against Islam?

3. Why does the Kalachakra-Tantra promote the institution of a "Chakravartin (a world emperor) who should set up a global Buddhist "Theocracy", a buddhocracy - this in direct conflict to your continual protestations of a belief in democracy?

4. Why do you promote unmoral and criminal acts, such as killing, lying, stealing and adultery, amongst the initiates of the different Buddhist Tantra-texts, especially the Kalachakra-Tantra - this in opposition to your promotion worldwide of social-ethics?

5. Dalai Lama, although you insist that Tibetan Buddhism is a celibate and woman-friendly religion, women are sexually abused and treated in a sexist manner during the higher rites of the Kalachakra-Tantra in order for the initiates to achieve spiritual, worldly and patriarchal power.

6. Dalai Lama, why do you forbid public discussion of the secret rites of the Kalachakra-Tantra to the extent of threatening "the punishments of hell" to all those who might talk?

7. Dalai Lama, why do you have maintained contact with people from the ranks of religious fascism and sect terrorism such as Bruno Beger, Jean Marquès-Rivière, Miguel Serrano and Shoko Asahara, all of who have been inspired in their visions and behaviours by the content of the Shambhala Myth?

8. Dalai Lama, why have you not written a exegesis on the problematic statements in the text of the Kalachakra-Tantra, which distances itself from the war-mongering, intolerant, sexist and buddhocratic statements in the Tantra?

 http://www.trimondi.de/EN/deba03.html

Whaaaaat? 21.Dec.2003 13:07

Joe Mickey tibetanphotoproject@hotmail.com

Q. Why would Gringo star use this forum to ask questions of the Dalai Lama?

A) Because he knows he won't face a challenge with an answer because the Dalai lama is not reading this.
B). Because he is out of touch and thinks the Dalai Lama is reading this
C). Because his rhetoric relies on being unchallenged
D). All of the above

While I can thank gringo for raising the attenion to the efforts of the Tibetan Photo Project thinking people have to look at Gring's 8 qestions "For the Dalai Lama." and ask Whaaaaat?

Folks Gringo Stars is anonymous and he has been on a rampage about Tibet since I first wrote. His research is handpicked to support his bias.

Ther reason readers should be wary, Gringo looks only for views that make his point and while some are valid resources, Gringo's personal effort here is trying only to validate his own opinion. In another comment on another article Gringo told us that he reads "mostly socialist and communist" writtings to form his thought process and this would then fall in line with China's position on Tibet.

Most important to Gringo's view is the point that, very much like the Chinese, he does not belive Tibetan's should define their own culture... Obviously there are valid writtings and research on all sides of the issue and Gringo Star not his real name, sounds suspisciously lke a Chinese web watcher I once corresponded with a couple years ago as he selectively chooses sources that make his point. This is not research, but how propaganda is made. Like Fox news is fair and balanced.

I have offered to have a private email conversation with the anonymous Mr. or Miss Gringo Stars but he or she is not interested. I would simpl caution that you take his or her postition with a skeptical eye. Gringo took this up in a past article and is like it like a fly on ... or like a Chinese Web watcher. In that past effort he could only name one source... this new attempt looks like a list from a quick run around the net . I don't know what to make of Gringo stars at this point.

Regarding research we have conducted for the Tibetan Photo Project
Chinese sourses have included but not exclusive The China Central Television, Wenhui Daily, Takung Pao. The current hardcopy file of research for the Tibetan photo Project both positive and negative includes 10,000 articles.

As a resource the project has been included as a link by Harvard Asia Studies Center for the Dalai Lama's Sept. visit, the Africa and Asia Studies at University of London and Virginia University. We have been asked to speak at Colorado College (twice) Mendocino College, UCCS and most importantly we are not anonymous. My name is postd, my email for contact is posted.


Resource information: Research was conducted from a wide range of sources: Major news network web sites included but were not limited to: CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, C-Span. Special programs included the Congressional debate on normalizing trade with China, PBS documentary on Nixon in China and Senate hearings on military security in Asia-Pacific. A&E Biography of the Dalai Lama. Resources on the web included but not limited to: The South China/Hong Kong Daily News, www.tibet.com, www.tibeticlt.org, www.savetibet.org and the Tibet Information Network. A hard-copy file dating back to April 1999 of approximately 3000 news paper and magazine articles from several publications including (but not limited to): The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Boston Globe, The San Francisco Chronicle, The Los Angeles Times, Associated Press Reports, Time, Newsweek, The New Yorker, Snow Lion Press, The Wall Street Journal, USA Today, The San Francisco Examiner, The Santa Rosa Press Democrat, Outside Magazine, national Geographic Magazine and archives, Smithsonian, Rolling Stone, and several other publications. Books included, but not limited to "In Exile From The Land Of Snows" by John Avedon, "Tears Of Blood" By Mary Craig, and "Whispered Prayers" by Steven Harrison and "Ethics for the New Millennium" by the Dalai Lama.

(No endorsements or associations are made or implied. Research all organizations before donating or supporting)

We do not post anonymously - Joe Mickey speaking at Colorado College
We do not post anonymously - Joe Mickey speaking at Colorado College

China is not communist 21.Dec.2003 13:49

GRINGO STARS

Anonymous Joe uses the fallacy of Guilt By Association in order to somehow link me with the Chinese. I have little respect for the distinctly capitalist regime in Beijing, which is not communist.

I believe that Tibetans, not ex-Tibetans should define their own culture.

I notice that "Joe" does not address ANY of the points raised in my previous comment. I have no illusions that the God-King would be on Portland IndyMedia, but since Joe is such a loyal apologist for the DL, I figured he might explaim the glaring problems with the DL and Lamaism to me. Instead, from "Joe" I have only personal attacks and insinuations that I am a Red China Web Watcher (gasp). I would love to carry on a private conversation but there is no evidence that "Joe" can carry on a conversation without personal insults, which is why I will henceforth avoid calling into question Joe's devotion to a profoundly sexist dogma such as Lamaism.

Anonymous voices are not worth trusting 21.Dec.2003 16:41

Joe Mickey tibetanphotoproject3@hotmail.com

Gringo star does not believe that Tibetans should have their own voice. see his comments under any of the other articles on Tibet. He drops in cut and paste rhetoric.

Visit the Tibetan Photo Project for yourself... It is made up of the efforts of the lowest Tibetan monks, secular Tibetans and Tibetans with families... In creating the program I have only invited the Tibetans to show me what they want the West to see.. and with every article, i have submitted them to my tibetan friends and asked them to tell me if I have got anything wrong or misstated... Above all the project is desinged to create another voice for the Tibetans.

I ask Gringo and the readership to consider, beyond the Dalai Lama, what is the voice and chance of survival on the world stage for tthe Tibetans.

I do not care about this discussion with gringo star. He is just a woward who hides from his or her own proclamations. But the fact that he or she gets a voice, it is important for readers to have a perspective on voices like this...Voices that hide in the sahdows and take no responsibility for the hate they attempt to generate...

From my talks to groups and organizations.
"Do not misunderstand, the Tibetan culture, is not a perfect culture, it has all the frailties of any other social or religious system ever developed on the planet and within that system you can find all of the human sins... but it is the Tibetans' culture and they have a right to determine their own way in the world. Beginning in 1949, the Chinese government, which is not the same as the Chinese people, began to take away the right of the Tibetans to determine their own culture that had evolved over centuries according to the anthropological needs of their nature and the remote land the inhabit."

"Tibetans have no economic or military power, they are largely a symbol. We have destroyed the American Indian, the Aborigines and countless other indigenous people. There is still time to get it right for the Tibetans. In this process they too have evolved. They fled to India and built a refugee community from the ground up. One of the government in exile's first effort was not to build a religious school but a secular school that with little resources, was the first attempt to help prepare Tibetans in exile for a different world."

"No doubt there are problems. There have been Lamas who prefer the trappings of their position of power and have spent time building elaborate temples and there have been Tibetans who have concentrated on the political needs and policies that are needed to help gain support from a vast array of organizations need to help the refuge population... this is not a religious quest for me as I am at best a skeptical agnostic but a human one... I have read the writings of many Tibetans and my correspondence with the monks has been personally rewarding as It has been to many Americans if you look at the Dalai Lama's standing on the best seller list. I took on this project because I felt I had received a great deal and The Dalai Lama is the main voice that brings recognition to the Tibetan cause...this project helps develop another voice, from regular Tibetans who are married and have families and to monks who have chosen that life and who feel that is the best thing they can do to preserve the Tibetan culture. Make no mistake there are people who do not believe the tibetans should have this voice."

"Finally, I have no money to be doing this... so before I decided to commit to this, I researched because I know that the Tibetans have as much an agenda as anyone else for their cause... Tibet has its good and its bad because its human... but it is noble because of what it represents and what it aspires and what it inspires. For that, we deserve to give something back."

Visually and respectfully,
Joe Mickey, co founder of the Tibetan Photo Project

Joe Mickey, Co-founder of the Tibetan Photo Project
Joe Mickey, Co-founder of the Tibetan Photo Project

Then trust the Trimondis, Campbell, Goldstein, Grundfeld, Lopez, et al 21.Dec.2003 19:48

GRINGO STARS

Fine, then don't trust me. Trust the non-Chinese critics of Lamaism. I shall quote one:

Over the past few years, increasing criticism has been leveled at Tibetan Buddhism, the history of Lamaism, conditions among the Tibetans in exile and the XIV Dalai Lama himself, criticism which is not from the Chinese quarter. Historians from the USA have begun questioning the widespread glorifying whitewash of Tibetan history (Melvin C. Goldstein, A. Tom Grundfeld). Critical Tibetologists have raised accusations of deliberate manipulation by official Tibetology (Donald S. Lopez Jr.). Tibet researchers have investigated the "dreams of power" that are activated and exacerbated by the "Tibet myth" nurtured by Lamaists (Peter Bishop). Prominent politicians have had to admit the evidence of their own eyes that the Chinese are not committing "genocide" in Tibet, as the Tibetans in exile continue to claim (Antje Vollmar, Mary Robinson). Former female Buddhists have condemned, on the basis of personal experience and with great expertise, the systematic and sophisticated oppression and abuse of women in Tibetan Buddhism (June Campbell). Psychologists and psychoanalysts have investigated the aggressive and morbid character of Lamaist culture (Robert A. Paul, Fokke Sierksma, Colin Goldner). From within the Dalai Lama's own ranks, overwhelming evidence of his intolerant, superstitious and autocratic nature has been amassed since 1997 (Shugden Affair). Lamaism's rituals have also been subjected to strong criticism. The humanistic, peace-loving, tolerant and ecumenical intentions of the Kalachakra Tantra and the Shambhala myth it contains have been interrogated in a comprehensive study (Victor and Victoria Trimondi). Biting criticism of the XIV Dalai Lama and his system founded on magic has also been broadcast in German, Swiss and Austrian television (Panorama, 10 nach 10, Treffpunkt Kultur). In Munich, on the occasion of a visit by the Tibetan religious potentate (in May 2000), there was even a split in the SPD, whose "pro-Dalai Lama" wing had invited the Tibetan "God-King" to a gala event. The media as a whole has been equally divided: the Dalai Lama has been accused of, among other things, having an undemocratic and autocratic leadership style, suppressing any political opposition, acting to repress religious minorities; letting policy be determined by possessed oracles rather than through dialog and debate, deliberate falsification of the history of Tibet, maintaining uncritical relationships with former members of the SS and neo-nazis, defaming critics and conducting misogynist rituals.

 http://www.trimondi.de/Kalachakra/dec.eng..htm

It seems, "Joe" that you follow the Lamaist tradition of defaming critics. Is the Dalai Lama not to ever be criticized? I put forth that the "God-King" is a hypocrite and a political opportunist, and several historians, tibetologists, pscychologists, psychoanalysts, and former female Buddhists seem to agree with me. None of these people are Chinese, by the way. Do you have any comment of substance on the matter at hand, or do you only have personal attacks for me?

This is absurd 21.Dec.2003 21:40

a brother

I assume that someone at Portland Indymedia made a editorial decision to run this as a center column feature. How progressive. A counrty embracing a large section of the world's population is branded as an enemy of humanity. Smacks of the demonization campaigns of the US government against Iraq. Maybe we can have a nice thermo-nuclear war 15 or 20 years into the future. Yeah, the difference is the Chinese will be able to fight back.

This just proves to me that the US "left" is indeed BRAIN DEAD.

And all those nice ad homs from our Buddhist friend. A true practioner of the Noble Eightfold Path. Such scurrilous bullshit does not even deserve a reply.

Gringo Star has been a lesson in creating propaganda 22.Dec.2003 13:59

Joe Mickey / Co-Founder of the Tibetan Photo Project tibetanphotoproject3@hotmail.com

Dear readers

If you have come this far, for all its frivolity you have received a lesson in the construction of propaganda. In this case is clumsily created by the faceless pen name of Gringo Star. When asked to provide identity or qualify his background on his position, he insults readers with a picture of a dog that he says is Gringo Star.

By following his posting sequence, we first see he offers a position. It is only when the validity is challenged, he supplies only information sources that support his point.

For example, his source of the pen-named authors, Victor & Victoria Trimondi, he conveniently makes no mention that the authors also point out support for the message of peace and compassion by the Dalai Lama. Gringo Star only presents that which supports his only position.

Confirmation of Gringo Star's sources is, for the most part, an extensive process.

In journalism, knowledge of the source is required to understand who the source is, their background, agenda and who if anyone finances and publishes or otherwise controls their efforts. Initial research of Victor & Victoria Trimondi reveals that their bios and interviews are self contained or self created, and while they provide identifications for themselves, even this will not be readily available to the casual reader and therefore this is not enough to ascertain credibility.

In another example, I would certainly challenge Gringo Star's headline "The Dalai Lama justifies WWII, the Korean War, and the Afghani and Iraqi invasions/occupations;" vs. the article he presents as proof for his headline.

 http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/mld/ledgerenquirer/news/nation/6738361.htm

A reading by any balance minded person will not find the propagandist point of view Gringo Star uses in his headline to sell the Associated Press article.

It also has to be pointed out when I referred to the same source earlier in the discussion, Gringo Star said of mainstream media, "You are a member/product of the corrupt corporate press. Must feel nice to be part of a very-well-financed, self-perpetuating system of so-called information." I guess if Gringo Star thinks the "corrupt corporate press," can be manipulated to fit his propaganda then its okay

In another example, Gringo Star lumped The Dalai Lama's Nobel peace prize with Henry Kissinger and the nomination of George Bush. The intelligent reader will ask if this means there is no person on the Nobel Peace Prize list that Gringo Star would agree with or is this another selective application to fit his propaganda?

And so on for Gringo Star's selective understanding or propaganda against Tibet and Tibet in exile.

To borrow from another comment that appeared on this topic and I am close to closing

((( "My $.02 worth" 21.Dec.2003 23:07
By xyzzy

Before anyone denounces me or other critics of Tibetan feudalism as Maoist sycophants, I'll close with a quote from Parenti's essay:
( Readers who visit this artilce will note that this article, while presented by another anonymous poster, is very well footnoted for its sources, see  http://www.swans.com/library/art9/mparen01.html as supplied by xyzzy)
...To denounce the Chinese occupation does not mean we have to romanticize the former feudal regime. One common complaint among Buddhist proselytes in the West is that Tibet's religious culture is being destroyed by the Chinese authorities. This does seem to be the case. But what I am questioning here is the supposedly admirable and pristinely spiritual nature of that pre-invasion culture. In short, we can advocate religious freedom and independence for Tibet without having to embrace the mythology of a Paradise Lost." )))

Readers, keep in mind that because Gringo Star saw this as a supportive statement he offered cheers. The only fault I find with the post is it comes from an anonymous poster.

The Dalai Lama has expressed similar sentiments o the above quote in several writings, tapes and venues in the era of present day. This is the evolution of a man who found himself first placed in the position at the age of 4.

From my own talks to groups and organizations I have phrased a similar sentiment as follows:

"Do not misunderstand, the Tibetan culture, is not a perfect culture, it has all the frailties of any other social or religious system ever developed on the planet and within that system you can find all of the human sins... but it is the Tibetans' culture and they have a right to determine their own way in the world. Beginning in 1949, the Chinese government, which is not the same as the Chinese people, began to take away the right of the Tibetans to determine their own culture that had evolved over centuries according to the anthropological needs of their nature and the remote land the inhabit."

"Tibetans have no economic or military power, they are largely a symbol. We have destroyed the American Indian, the Aborigines and countless other indigenous people. There is still time to get it right for the Tibetans. In this process they too have evolved. They fled to India and built a refugee community from the ground up. One of the government in exile's first effort was not to build a religious school but a secular school that with little resources, was the first attempt to help prepare Tibetans in exile for a different world."

"No doubt there are problems. There have been Lamas who prefer the trappings of their position of power and have spent time building elaborate temples and there have been Tibetans who have concentrated on the political needs and policies that are needed to help gain support from a vast array of organizations need to help the refuge population... this is not a religious quest for me as I am at best a skeptical agnostic but a human one... I have read the writings of many Tibetans and my correspondence with the monks has been personally rewarding. If you look at the Dalai Lama's standing on the best seller list, It has been to many Americans. I took on this project because I felt I had received a great deal and The Dalai Lama is the main voice that brings recognition to the Tibetan cause...this project helps develop another voice, from regular Tibetans who are married and have families and to monks who have chosen that life and who feel that is the best thing they can do to preserve the Tibetan culture which has created great art and evolved great philosophy. Make no mistake there are people who do not believe the Tibetans should have this voice."

Readers that come to this site are looking for truth and simply by coming here they prove they are not gullible nor do they fall for propaganda. But, folks like Gringo Star will never be curtailed from trying to manipulate information for their own designs.

Readers who care about this issue will explore it for themselves from all sides and sources. For them, it is just as important to look at what the Tibetan situation has become as what has evolved from it. History presents a view that tells us how far a person or a nation has come. For that reason history is important to the perspective of today's vantage point.

This seems like a good place for me to close.

If you have come this far... Thank you for your participation. I hope you will visit the site and many other sites on Tibet. Certainly feel free to contact me and I welcome legitimate challenges and discussions.

Keep searching past the one-sided propaganda created by the nameless and faceless and look for the truth. Gringo star will no doubt have the last word.

Happy holidays to all.

Joe Mickey, Co-Founder of the Tibetan Photo Project

Happy and safe holidays. I hope you get to enjoy some waves this Christmas
Happy and safe holidays. I hope you get to enjoy some waves this Christmas

We are ALL anonymous here - including YOU, "Joe" 23.Dec.2003 00:39

GRINGO STARS

Dear "Joe"... You have offered no proof of what your name is. You have provided pictures and names and email addresses, all of which mean NOTHING. You are just as anonymous as I am, no matter how many times you waste IndyMedia bandwidth by posting the same picture of a dazed white guy standing at a podium. It all means nothing. It proves nothing. It doesn't mean what you say is true.

But is that why we are here? Are we here to disrespect anyone whose opinions differ from our own? It SEEMS as of that is your purpose here. You cut and paste precisely the same apologist BS about "hey Tibetan Buddhism isn't perfect" over and over again as an ineffective response to very specific problems I have bropught up with others research. So is your plan to NEVER talk about th epoints I bring up? Because that is what disinformationalists do - they DISTRACT from the substance of arguments with personal attacks (such as you calling me a government propagandist or saying that I think I am God - ?!?!?!?).

I am reposting REAL substantial criticisms of Tibetan Buddhism and its historical and dogmatic problems and all you can say is "hey we're not perfect"? I call Lamaism on its extreme sexism and institutionalised sexual abuse and you can only say "hey we're not perfect"? We KNOW no one is perfect. That is a given. I am referring to the very real ways that hypocrisy is encouraged by organized religion. Theism promotes irresponsibility by making "Gods on Earth" (the Lamas) uncriticizable. Do you think that is good? Many (non-Chinese) historians point out the oppression that went on during the rule of the feudal God-King.

I personally also agree with the Dalai Lama's MESSAGE of peace and goodwill towards other religions, just like the Trimondis do. But like the Trimondis, I find it extremely troubling that the written Tantras of Lamaism actually are very warlike, and have only holy war to offer towards followers of other religions. Don't you find the Dalai Lama's hypocrisy troubling? Don't you think that such blatant (if hidden) hypocrisy makes the "God-King" unfit for theocratic rule? Do you believe that religion and government go together?

I already hjeard your "hey we aren't perfect" speech in many previous comments, so perhaps you might want to finally address the points I have brought up? Or are you going to play the propagandist and call more names again? I am hoping that you do at this point, since your focus on lawyerly mudslinging is making it obvious you haven't thoroughly studied the real problems with Lamaist rule, despite your claim to "look at all sides" before you leapt in to help put the ancient God-King back into feudal rule of Tibet.

Gringo - find your hypocracy troubling 23.Dec.2003 13:16

zzyje

I have scanned this entertaining but (and the word "but" is used as it always is, to eliminate everything that comes before "but" - Like saying I am not a racist "but" or I do not hate Tibetans "but" Or I do not live by "dogma" - "but " my view is purely and uncompromisingly communist, like the Chinese that invaded Tibet) Gringo's postion is full of hypocracy - never mind his rhetorical bla bla use of the hated corporate media when it suits his purpose but his overall concept that the Tibetans cannot design their own future unless it is by matches his design and eliminates much of their centuries of development as a culture. At its best Gringo's is the voice of a wanna-be dictator who lives at this site - as his followers point out for years- wishing he had a following where all other ideals and ideas are assulted - insulted -rejected and ohterwise whined about. At worst (and this is entirely possible - even I could have signed on as the self-inflated-self -infatuated "Star" - an interesting self image in itself - If I were to analyze whoever Gringo is - he sees himself as a "star" - like a wannabe dictator - but even the lowest llvel Chinese could sign on - but i digress) At worst, Gringo's is the voice of China which will never let Tibetans decide their own future inside Tibet. Either way, the voice may not be the same - "but" - it sure sounds the same.

Explain my hypocrisy 23.Dec.2003 13:39

GRINGO STARS

By all means, back up your thesis with an argument. Any argument. You can't just sign on with another name saying the same thing (wow your syntax and ad hominems are transparent, "Joe") - you have to say WHY. And it might help to address the grave shortcomings of the repressive Lamaist system of government that I brought up instead of rehashing your same old personal attacks/insinuations.

A little help please from Gringo on his 8 Questions for the Dalai Lama 24.Dec.2003 14:54

Joe Mickey tibetanphotoproject3@hotmail.com

A little help please from Gringo on the 8 questions to the Dalai Lama

Let see if we can be serious and constructive... Regarding the post of 8 Questions to the Dalai Lama posed by Gringo Stars ... I am asking Gringo for a bit of help regarding this interpretation of the Kalachakra-Tantra. (This interpretation of ancient text seems completely out of context with volumes of modern works. The official site for Kalachakra in Toronto in 2004 is  http://www.kalachakra2004.com/ )
The Authors work under a pen name of Victor and Victoria Trimondi.
Their Bios and interviews are self generated so can you give me a little help

1) A little help with locating independent sources on their background, how the interpretation was conducted, who published their material and who financed the publication.

2) Since this interpretation appears out of joint I will contact via email 2 university Tibetan study programs. Further, I will email two Tibetan contacts who are independent of each other and snail mail a Tibetan monk who is also studying independently and request information and interpretation of this text. What I would ask from you is any information on the original text Victor and Victoria Trimondi worked from and any other sources you used to conclude this interpretation was accurate.

My end on this will take a while, but as you have pointed out this is the Internet so before I would discuss this further or include it in my research or presentations this is the process I will be going through. I am happy to accept your sources and information here or we can do this through email. I am at  tibetanphotoproject3@hotmail.com

Visually and respectfully,
Joe Mickey, Co-founder of the Tibetan Photo Project

P.S. naturally this request for help with research information is open to all
Happy Holidays

Giving Tibetans a voice through thier own words and images
Giving Tibetans a voice through thier own words and images

Finally! 24.Dec.2003 17:08

GRINGO STARS

I am pleased that you finally take such criticism seriously. Taking criticism is a crucial step in self-improvement, and questioning oneself and ones own beliefs is a necessary part of living consciously. Let me know what the two professors say about the 8 questions. You are a big boy, Joe, and I know you can research the Trimondis easily enough as I have so you don't need me or anyone else to baby you or walk you through it. It took me all of 5 minutes to find out their real names. Simple stuff.

The Trimondis are German, by the way (not Italian like their noms de plume). The Trimondis have written a book which is also entirely online called The Shadow of the Dalai Lama: Sexuality, Magic, and Politics in Tibetan Buddhism. It can be read online in its entirety here:
 http://www.trimondi.de/SDLE/Contents.htm

Information about the book - Shadow of the Dalai Lama;
 http://www.trimondi.de/EN/expose1.html

Reviews of the book - Shadow of the Dalai Lama;
 http://www.trimondi.de/EN/med01.html
 http://www.trimondi.de/EN/med02.html

It is the Trimondis who penned the 8 questions for the Dalai Lama, and as they have both been initiated into the 4 higher "secret" initiations of which they speak, they in fact know what they are talking about. In detail, 8 questions are as follows;


Over the last 25 years thousands of people worldwide have been initiated into the highest levels of Buddhism by the 14th Dalai Lama. Fundamental to this initiation is a holy text (tantra), namely the Kalachakra-Tantra, part of which is the Shambhala Myth.

Kalachakra is Sanskrit and means "wheel of time". In recent times the Kalachakra-Tantra has been increasingly critically scrutinised. In our western debate-oriented society it stands to reason that the Dalai Lama himself answers some of these critical questions in order to ensure that any misinterpretations are corrected.


1. Why does the Kalachakra-Tantra which supposedly is a "ritual for world peace" prophesy and glorify a "holy war" (Shambhala war) by Buddhists against non-Buddhists?

Dalai Lama, you are honoured throughout the world as a messenger for peace, who has spoken out publicly many times against every use of violence and, in fact, you have presented the Kalachakra-Tantra as a contributor to world peace. The Kalachakra-Tantra is, however, anything but pacifist in its content, rather it prophecies and promotes on an ideological basis a bloody religious war for world leadership between Buddhists and non-Buddhists (Shambhala Myth). The original text describes the Buddhist war-methods as "merciless" and "cruel". It says: "The supremely ferocious warriors will throw down the barbarian hordes" and "eliminate" (them). (Shri Kalachakra I. 163/165) The Kalachakra Tantra describes over many paragraphs murderous super weapons which the Buddhist army will use against "the enemy of the Dharma". (Shri Kalachakra I. 128-142)

The historical Buddha was against war in every form. For him there was no such thing as a "righteous war" and certainly not a "holy war". It is exactly because Buddhism is seen as being against all use of violence that it receives so much attention in the West. How can the inhumane and warlike statements of the Kalachakra-Tantra be in harmony with the vision of peace of the original Buddha? Why are so many war-gods and war-heroes honoured in Lamaism (Begtse, Mahakala, Gesar von Ling etc.)? It is possible to find these foundational ideas of "Warriors for Buddha" in the writings of many representatives of Lamaism such as Lama Chögyam Trungpa and Lama Ole Nydahl, which build upon a crass "enemy thinking" and preach a military Buddhism. What are you doing against this sort of development amongst your own followers? How can the official Kalachakra-Interpreter Alexander Berzin openly compare the principles of the Islamic "Jihad" with that of the Shambhala war?


2. Why does the Kalachakra-Tantra, which is supposedly a contributor to a world ecumenical movement and a world ethos, attack the 3 monotheist-semitic religions, especially Islam, named as the enemy of Dharma, and swear a religious war against Islam?

Dalai Lama, one of your basic demands is tolerance of other religions and this has made you to the most famous symbol of the inter-religious dialogue. This is in conflict, however, with many passages in the Kalachakra-Tantral - even though you have publicly promoted this ritual as a contributor to ecumenical thinking. Some of the main figures in the semitic-monotheist religions such as "Adam, Enoch, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mani, Mohammed and the Mahdi" are characterised as the "family of the demonic snakes" and are attributed with characteristics of darkness and deceit. (Shri Kalachakra I. 154) According to the Shambhala prophecy, the worldwide implementation of the "Buddhist Dharma" (i.e. Buddhism) will be preceded by an eschatological holy war against the "barbaric Dharma" (i. e. Monotheism). The original text states that the powerful, merciless idol of the barbarians, the demonic incarnation (i.e. Islam) lives in Mecca. (Shri Kalachakra I. 154).

Do you not feel, at a time when religious warfare are dictating world politics, that the war against Islam described in the Kalachakra-Tantra could ignite a clash of civilizations? In the Austrian newspaper "News" from 10. October 2002, you say "Islam wants to be counted amongst the world religions and yet pushes forward its claim via aggression - exactly as the Christians did a few hundred years ago. This has nothing to do with religion, but is rather about power. And that was definitely not the Prophet Mohammed's desire. Religion should not be led by power." Is your statement not in conflict to the prophecy of the Shambhala war as described in the Kalachakra-Tantra? Why do you say nothing of the potential for aggression, the buddhocratic visions of power and the intolerance in your lamaistic Religion? Why do you commend, as peacemaker, a Buddhist demon, namely Palden Lhamo, who skinned her own son and used his skin as a saddle for her horse because he refused to take on the Buddhist religion? Do you really believe that such role models of horror can promote tolerance? Why are you accused of intolerance and the persecution of religious minorities by the more traditional proponents of Tibetan Buddhism such as the Dorje-Shugden School, which you yourself once attended?


3. Why does the Kalachakra-Tantra promote the institution of a "Chakravartin" (a world emperor) who should set up a global Buddhist "Theocracy", a buddhocracy - this in direct conflict to your continual protestations of a belief in democracy?

The Kalachakra-Tantra includes the buddhocratic teaching of a Chakravartin or world emperor. "The Chakravartin shall come out at the end of the age, from the city the gods fashioned on Mount Kailasa. He shall smite the barbarians in battle with his own four-division army, on the entire surface of the earth." This statement can be found in the original text of the Kalachakra-Tantra (Shri Kalachakra I. 161). A Chakravartin is, according to the Indian tradition, a messianic priest-king who brings absolution, a "theocrat" (better "buddhocrat") who unites religious, political, legal and military power in himself. Sharing of power by the common man and democracy are completely unknown concepts in this political theology which stems from the 10th century.

Buddha Shakyamuni on the other hand denies totally this "world leadership". As he was given the choice of becoming a Chakravartin or a Buddha, he choses explicitly the way of the Buddha - in other words, the way of a holy man, and turned aside from the way of the Chakravartin, the world leader. Why, although you applaud democracy publicly, have you been teaching the Kalachakra Ritual for over 30 years now on a worldwide basis, in which a global buddhocracy is promoted with an absolute regent at the head of this state model? Why do you support with a foreword in the book "Inner Revolution" by the American Tibetologist Robert A Thurmann, the Buddhist global blueprint? Why do you use as the basis for your political decision-making a human state oracle (Nechung), who is possessed by a Mongolian War God (Pehar) rather than the normal democratic political processes?


4. Why do you promote unmoral and criminal acts, such as killing, lying, stealing and adultery, amongst the initiates of the different Buddhist Tantra-texts, especially the Kalachakra-Tantra - this in opposition to your promotion worldwide of social-ethics?

In the secret eight highest initiation rites of the Kalachakra-Tantra the initiate comes into a state of mind, "beyond good and evil", through extreme mental and physical acts. The original text demanded from the initiate the following crimes: to kill, to lie, to steal and infidelity. Even you find it legitimate when a Kalachakra-initiate under certain circumstances, kills people "who are harmful to the Buddhist teaching" (Dalai Lama - The Kalachakra-Tantra - London 1985, p. 349). Even when you demand that the killings demanded in many tantric texts - under certain circumstances - should be motivated out of "compassion", you are still in conflict with the strict command not to kill found in the original Buddhist teaching. In Tibetan history "compassion killings" have had a great weight in legitimising the liquidation of political rivals and have left behind bloody traces. Also ist the ritualistic consumption of human flesh, as described in the Kalachakra-Tantra, is against all Western ethics. The human flesh is usually taken from the dead and, writes the tantric grand master and Shambhala King, Pundarika, in his traditional Kalachakra commentary, is the "meat of those who died due to their own karma, who were killed in battle due to evil karma or and due to their own fault, or that of robbers and so forth who were executed". He continues with the advice that it is sensible to consume these substances in the form of pills. The flesh of innocent people, who have been killed as sacrifices to the gods, out of fear, as part of an ancestor cult, out of desire (greed) or for money, is laden with "unspeakable sin" and may not be used in the rituals. "But which falls in the bowl unasked-for is without unspeakable sin" - and may therefore be put to use. (In: John Ronald Newman - The outer wheel of time: Vajrayana Buddhist cosmology in the Kalacakra Tantra - Madison 1987, 266 f.).


5. Dalai Lama, although you insist that Tibetan Buddhism is a celibate and woman-friendly religion, women are sexually abused and treated in a sexist manner during the higher rites of the Kalachakra-Tantra in order for the initiates to achieve spiritual, worldly and patriarchal power.

At the highest levels of the secret initiations of the Kalachakra-Tantra sexual rites are practised, the objective of which is to transform sexuality into worldly and spiritual power. According to the original texts the women used for such rites represent a form of sexual energy, whereby the age is of great importance. One begins with eleven year old girls. In levels 8 to 11 of the initiations only one woman is used; in levels 12 to 15, the Ganachakra as it is known, a total of 10 women participate in addition to the "master and his initiates". It is a duty of the pupil to offer his Lama these women as a gift. Women are purely "energy providers" for the male participants in the Kalachakra-Tantra and, at the end of the ritual, are of no further importance. How can such rites be understood in the light of the equal rights for male and female which you have often publicly confessed to uphold? The secrecy surrounding these sexual practices in the upper levels of the Kalachakra-Tantra has led to wild speculations and suppositions.


6. Dalai Lama, why do you forbid public discussion of the secret rites of the Kalachakra-Tantra to the extent of threatening "the punishments of hell" to all those who might talk?

Dalai Lama, you yourself state that it is forbidden under threat of the punishment of hell for the initiates to talk openly about the secret rituals in the Kalachakra-Tantra. In this context, you threaten a pupil in a commentary on the Kalachakra-Tantra "You must do what I tell to you. You should not deride me, and if you do, without forsaking fright, the time of death will come, and you will fall into a hell." (Dalai Lama - The Kalachakra-Tantra - London 1985, p. 242). Buddha, on the other hand, insisted that one should believe nothing but rather test everything through experience and with commonsense (Anguttara Nikaya I, 174). You have also made this statement many times. Why do you forbid an open discussion about the secret tantras and the secret rites of the Kalachakra-Tantra? Why do you not make public the secret rites?


7. Dalai Lama, why do you have maintained contact with people from the ranks of religious fascism and sect-terrorism such as Bruno Beger, Jean Marquès-Rivière, Miguel Serrano and Shoko Asahara, all of whom have been inspired in their visions and behaviours by the content of the Shambhala Myth?

You have stressed many times that the basic principles of Mahayana-Buddhism are in line with western democratic ideas and human rights. This is not true, however, of many ideas contained within tantric Buddhism, which is at the centre of the Tibetan religion, if these are taken literally. It is a fact that the Shamhala Myth (Shambhala war) in the Kalachakra-Tantra has led to aggressive behaviour, megalomaniacal visions and conspiracy theories both in the history of the Asian peoples as well as in that of religious fascism and neo-fascism. Already in the SS-Ahnenerbe, where Heinrich Himmler's ideologies were born, there was an interest in the content of the Kalachakra-Tantra and the influential fascist and cultural philosopher Julius Evola saw in the mythic world of Shambhala an esoteric centre of a sacred warrior race. This vision is today still firmly anchored in the religious ideas of the international far-right movement. Alone this fact makes it necessary for you to distance yourself clearly from the war-mongering Shambhala Myth and to remove this from the texts. Instead of this you have made efforts to maintain friendly contacts with people such as the ex-SS man Bruno Beger (convicted as helping to murder more than 86 people), the SS-collaborator, well-known expert on the Orient and Tantra Jean Marquès-Rivière (in his absence convicted and given the death sentence for turning Jews and Free Masons over to the Gestapo in France); the founder of an esoteric Hitler movement and ex-Chilean diplomat Miguel Serrano (promoter of the SS-mystic) and the Japanese terrorist and admirer of Hitler Shoko Asahara. As the Kalachakra-Tantra is against all religions which have a Semitic origin, it can be misused very easily by the extreme right, anti-Semitic groups for their racist propaganda and has been used in this way.


8. Dalai Lama, why have you not written an exegesis on the problematic statements in the text of the Kalachakra-Tantra, which distances itself from the warmongering, intolerant, sexist and buddhocratic statements in the Tantra?

Until now there has been no clear exegesis from you which distances itself from the potential for violence contained within the Kalachakra-Tantra texts. To the question in how far it is possible to make an exegesis of these old texts, you have given contradictory answers. On the one hand you say: "even Buddha's statements must be critically tested. Some of his statements should not be taken literally and must be interpreted in a different way. We have the freedom to not just accept certain statements; rather in certain circumstances we must interpret them in a new light." (Dalai Lama, Augen der Weisheit - Freiburg 2002, 178). On the other hand, this is contradicted by your following statement: "The Tantras and Sutras are the ultimate authority, we aren't. Unless there is a scriptural reference in them, there is no need for us to make these things up and assert that Buddha had in mind an analogy with Western religion or science." (in: The Berzin Archives - Kalachakra Teachings HHDL 2. htm) Why has to date no complete, correct and commentated translation of the Kalachakra-Tantra been made available in a Western language, although you have already initiated ten thousands of Westerners into this ritual?

Gringo, one source is not confirmation nor truth 24.Dec.2003 18:09

Joe Mickey tibetanphotoproject3@hotmail.com

Gringo, I have made a sincere request for your help. I had also hoped to change the tone and quality of this pissing-match dialogue.


If in all the volumes of material on Tibet, the only sources for your 8 questions are from the same German people who work under Italian Pen Names and who created the material you have published then it is not material I can include in my research or my presentations. If you can help with this confirmation then I have no problem adding it to my research and my presentations. I think you have provided an important text if it can be proven.

Please excuse that I have doubts about material from people who work, not only under anonymous pen names, as you point out the pen names are even designed to change their nationalites. Not exactly reliable sources in the manner in which I do things.

Believe it or not, this is not about you. You have tossed in a grenade and its deserves full scrutiny.

If you are willing to accept only one source then you are working by faith. If that works for you fine. Please accept that what we do is not done that way.

Given the nature of the allegations being made according to this interpretation that it should not be tossed around lightly.

It is a lot of work to confirm information. I will continue with my eforst as outlined in my previous note "Since this interpretation appears out of joint, I will contact via email 2 university Tibetan study programs. Further, I will email two Tibetan contacts who are independent of each other and snail mail a Tibetan monk who is also studying independently and request information and interpretation of this text. What I would ask from you is any information on the original text Victor and Victoria Trimondi worked from and any other sources you used to conclude this interpretation was accurate."

Wanting to know the truth is never "Bullshit." I am sorry if you feel that way.

And with that, Merry Christmas


Get it right, "Joe" 24.Dec.2003 19:57

GRINGO STARS

Wanting to know the truth is not Bullshit. But you casting me in the light of someone who is trying to "incite" instead of help IS bullshit. And you know it. You are the one who set the tone of our correspondence. Perhaps if you didn't want things less than rosy-happy-joy-joy, then you should have acted accordingly from the outset. "The tone" of our discussion is not important to me. I am not a controller-of-discourse like you are. I seek to discuss Tibet, its people, Tibetan Buddhism and the Dalai Lama's hypocrisy in seeking a so-called better future for Tibetans, NOT discuss you or me or other matters of non-importance.

I do not accept one source. All the sources which I have cited support the view I have. That's how I came to my view. To say that I "accept one source" and act on faith is more disinformationalist BS from you.

By all means, research the Trimondis. I already have. I'm not yer pop so don't expect me to hold your hand, especially after all the bullshit yopu spread so thick. I hope you find the truth.

The Trimondis have not tossed their allegations lightly. They have made their life work into it. As soon as you do ANY research on this subject, you'll know this. I see you already say the Trimondi's pen names are "designed to change their nationalities" as if this is a sinister plot to be Italian instead of German. I am starting to suspect that you are an elaborate hoax/joke because that one was pretty funny. Already spreading rumors? I know, I know, when someone DARES to say naughty things about the beloved God-King, then there darn-tootin BETTER be some splainin to do, Lucy!

I have been seeking to change the quality of this exchange for its entirety. But idiots will always bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience, as the saying goes. So here I am making an entire comment without mentioning the real subject. You win! (I never knew it was a "pissing-contest")

Perhaps you should be researching instead of doing more whining. Just a thought.

Gringo this is not about you 25.Dec.2003 14:13

Joe Mickey tibetanphotoproject3@hotmail.com

Gringo its not about you 25.Dec.2003 12:16
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joe Mickey         tibetanphotoproject3@hotmail.com

Believe it or not, this is not about you. you really have to stop looing at everything as if it is about you... We know you are "enlightend," and "honest and decent" and that you "are not god"... You have told us, not sure why you needed to tell us, but ok .. If it helps you, I will even accept it without confirmation even if you are the source... but enough about you.

This is opposite views and finding and proving the truth out of respect for every one who uses this independent media site to gather valid information for lager purposes. Either you are in or you are out when it comes to the truth. Apparently from your last post you are out.

Just thought I would ask.



 http://www.tibetanphotoproject.com

Creating a voice for Tibetans thourgh their own images and words
Creating a voice for Tibetans thourgh their own images and words

Then why are all your comments all about me, Joe? 25.Dec.2003 19:24

GRINGO STARS

I would love it if this wasn't about me, but you have made every one of your scurrilous comments entirely about ME, including your last comment.

Your focus on me is extraordinary, Joe. As a matter of fact, every one of your comments have been about me rather than Tibet or your God-King. Can you blame me for thinking it's all about me? Certainly for you it IS all about me. I know I'm charming but you should understand that our love is a forbidden one - we are star-crossed lovers, a partnership that could never be. Alas, you will find another Joe. I doubt the monks would approve of such a union since in Tibetan Buddhism homosexuality is considered a punishment for having been a rapist or adulterer in a past life. Hey, it could be worse. The most vile punishment is to be reborn as a (gasp) WOMAN!

Either I am in or out "for the truth" as you say - and your indicator of which side I am on rests on... whether or not I will HELP you? You are truly a piece of work. You lie repeatedly about me and then ask for help? If karma is real then I fear for you, Joe. I have no intention of helping you in anything. You are not a baby - go do some research. Your scurrilous disinformation meant to discredit me proves you to be a profoundly virtueless human, and religion can't help that a bit. No WONDER you turn to the cute little monks.

As any easily-amused vendor-of-dogma (monk) will tell you; if you do not research things for yourself it won't mean as much. I can't spoonfeed you everything. I have already posted numerous links. Now you can't research the Trimondis by yourself? And you require monks and professors to do your thinking for you? I kind of feel sorry for you.

You lie: I never once said that I am enlightened, Joe. Scroll up, genius.

You lie again: I also never said I don't write to incite. Scroll up. I try to incite you to re-examine your half-baked beliefs you accepted with little criticism from the picaresque monks.

The reason I post such nonsense as "No I am not god" is because YOU actually post that I consider myself a god. Don't play dumb and pretend you "don't know why" I say that.

You are welcome to believe whatever you like about me; that is none of my concern. Your lies and personal insults to me make personal correspondence between us an unattractive prospect.

I see you are still concerned with discrediting anything I say rather than dealing with the issue at hand, or researching the issue (which you claim interest in). That is your choice. Your ego is powerful and you don't like your intelligence insulted; I understand that. For that reason alone you will apparently never let anyone besides you have the last word. Please continue lying about what I say, as it will help any IMC reader masochistic enough to follow this thread well aware of what type of person is impressed with your beloved God-King.

Whatever you do, don't refer to the DL or Tibet (or anything besides me) since that may betray the one-sided information you have gotten on the subject. And PLEASE follow your plan and do NO thinking on your own without consulting one of the wise, inscrutable, cute, easily-amused monks that you use for your postcard imagery.

Gringo, you don't want to help... we got it 25.Dec.2003 19:30

Joe Mickey

We all got it. Your not interested in helping.

So far, the only thing you consistently fight to confirm is what is said about you and what is said by you about you. How did I know that's what you would worry about? Have the last word Then go to bed happy. Merry Christmas.

P.S. For the record, I am working on the confirmation on your 8 questions for the Dalai Lama. Colleges are of course on vacation. Snail-mail to monks in india who do not have email takes weeks. Real research actually takes quite a bit of time and patience. I think the readers here deserve the effort... many of them are working on important issues and good information is very important to those efforts.

For me its not enought to just hit a website and then jump to all their confirmations about themselves and their pen names and call it truth. I wish it were that simple.
Fininding truth is a slow process
Fininding truth is a slow process
Shouting louder does not change a lie to the truth
Shouting louder does not change a lie to the truth
To know life in the streets you have to travel and live in the streets
To know life in the streets you have to travel and live in the streets

How will readers here ever get along without you, Joe? 25.Dec.2003 23:32

GRINGO STARS

Please also ask your monks and professors about lamaist rule pre-1959. Ask the Indians about the God-King's rule in the exile camps of Northern India after his exodus and how he treated "his" people, as well.

The first and most important thing I have fought to confirm are the facts that Lamaist rule was feudal, exploitative, sexist, homophobic, oppressive and very brutal. That was before all your lies, which I (sap that I am) responded to as if they weren't blatant and cynical attempts to discredit anything I post. I worry about the truth too much to let liars like you slide, Joe.

Once again, you imply that I did incomplete research in your last paragraph (the one before your pithy bumper sticker/postcard sentiments) which I did not at all do and you have no evidence of what kind of research I did at all. Yet you choose to lie again. Why? Because the facts I present are harmful to the God-King's cause of cozying up to Tibet's CURRENT oppressors in a cynical bid to become governor over Tibet? That seems the most logical explanation for your fallacies and ad hominems. Please consult all the dogmatists you know before (not) making any ideological leaps, so that your decision will properly reflect your God-King's wishes, Joe.

Bill Gring0's interesting concept of the truth 26.Dec.2003 11:53

Add-hominum

Lets see, To get a literial interpretation of a Tibetan text and ceremony
Mickey is going to consult with 2 university tibetan Study centers and interview three tibetans that speak the language...

Bill Gring0 relies on a document publishished only on the interntet by a guy with a pen name that includes a disguised nationality on is only confimed by the guy with the pen name

But wait there is more. Bill Gring0 has already condemed Mickey's results which are not in yet

Bill Gring0's concept of the truth is almost as facinating as his persuit of it is.

Gringo Star's unbiased source and expert referance 26.Dec.2003 20:39

From the pages of Revolutionary worker

A few notes from Gringo Stars unbiased and authorative source The Revolutionary worker
Table of contents 1:
From A World to Win, Celebrate the 50th Anniversary of the Chinese Revolution, by Carl Dix, National Spokesperson for the RCP,USA, RW #1083, December 17, 2000
* Without State Power, All Is Illusion... With State Power, A World of Things Becomes Possible, By Bob Avakian, RW #1082, December 10, 2000
* Visionary Socialism: On the Anarchy of Capitalism and the Need for Social Planning, by Raymond Lotta, RW #1071, September 24, 2000
*

Korean War—June 25, 1950 to July 27, 1953:Tearing Up the U.S. Paper Tiger in Korea
*

Part 1: How 300,000 Chinese Troops Snuck into Korea and Kicked the Ass of the U.S. Armed Forces, RW #1059, June 18, 2000
*

Part 2: People's Volunteers and the Strategy of People's War, RW #1060, June 25, 2000


* An Interview with Mary Lou Greenberg, Breaking All Tradition's Chains, A Glimpse of the Future from Maoist China, RW #1045, March 5, 2000
* Mao Tsetung: The Art of War, 
Part 1: Luring the Enemy in Deep, RW #1030, November 14, 1999 
Part 2: The War Against Japanese Aggression: The Battle of Pinghshingkuan Pass, RW #1031, November 21, 1999
* When the People Had Power: The Economic Miracles of Maoist China, By Raymond Lotta, RW #1029, November 7, 1999
* October 1949: The Liberation of 1/4 of Humanity: MAO MORE THAN EVER--The Chinese Revolution and the Hope for the Future, RW #1024, October 3, 1999
* How Collective Childcare Liberated Women in Maoist China, by Li Onesto
* Mao Tsetung, The Greatest Revolutionary of Our Time
* The Red Guards: Hong Wei Bing 1966
* Chiang Ching: A Revolutionary Life
* How Maoist Revolution Wiped Out Drug Addiction in China, by C. Clark Kissinger
* The True Story of Maoist Revolution in Tibet by Mike Ely

The Peoples War in China 1927-49
* The Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution 1966-1976
* Posters from Revolutionary China
* Mao Tsetung Picture Album (drawings and photos)
* The Tiananmen Events 1989

The Demise of the Barefoot Doctors and the Health Crisis in China's Countryside, RW #1096, March 25, 2001
* The Towering Crimes of Deng Xiaoping by RCP Chairman Bob Avakian, a speech from January 29, 1979
* Chairman Bob Avakian on Revolution and Counter-Revolution in China
* The Suppression of the Tiananmen Square Rebellion 1989
* The End of Deng Xiaoping: Enemy of the People obituary, March 2, 1997
* Deng Xiaoping's Free Market Nightmare, March 2, 1997
* July 1st, 1997: The Return of Hong Kong and the Capitalist Road in China
* Women in China:  Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, March/April 1999

Or for more unbiased news you have to enjoy the following notes of a doctorine of peace under maoist thinking:
Part 10: Guns, Drums, and Keyboards,
Part 8: Learning Warfare by Waging Warfare in the West
ah what the heck: is China the greatest thret to the West?
Part 4: Rifles and a Great Vision, RW #1017, August 8, 1999 

Part 5: The City Squad RW #1018, August 15, 1999

Part 6: General Strike in Kathmandu RW #1019, August 22, 1999

Part 7: Preparing the Ground in the West RW #1020, August 29, 1999

Part 8: Learning Warfare by Waging Warfare in the West R

Of course the report on the Dalai Lama by Gringo Stars is accurate and unbiased. it comes from this magazine. There isn't a drop of Chinese propaganda anywhere in these reports.

You forgot the link 26.Dec.2003 21:05

GRINGO STARS

 http://rwor.org/

By all means, check out the link and read all the articles listed in the comment above. Thank you for the excellent collection, "Add-hominum."

None of the above is "Chinese propaganda" because the Maoist revolution ended in 1976 when reactionary capitalists seized power. The above IS Maoist in nature, and there is nothing wrong with Maoism. Mao brought the Chinese empire kicking and screaming into the 20th century with amazing reforms that gave power to the working-class that it took from the ruling-class. Up until 1976 the Chinese government was one of the most progressive on earth. These days, the present Chinese regime demonizes Mao just as the corporate media here in the US does.

Justice sometimes demands class war in order to give the working-class the resources needed to live a decent life, resources which are systematically denied in the capitalist system. Remember that those why cry "peace" includes the ruling class here in the US, who fear class war more than any "terrorist threats" from the outside, and in fact treats many class warriors as "terrorists".

"No war but the class war" is an excellent slogan. So is "No justice, no peace."

This man has paid a high enough price 31.Dec.2003 14:38

Joe Mickey tibetanphotoproject3@hotmail.com

When its all said and done, this man has paid a high enough price to choose the the life he wants to live. I really doubt anyone else here making comments would take the risks he faced for the commitments they claim to have. The Tibetan Photo Project is designed to help give this man a voice.

 http://www.tibetanphotoproject.com

for this man's story visit gallery #7 at the site
for this man's story visit gallery #7 at the site