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Another Stupid White Man Runs His Mouth: Michael Moore Attacks Mumia Abu Jamal

Fresh off his championing of Gen. Wesley Clark for president, Michael Moore attacks Mumia Abu Jamal. With great White "progressives" like Michael Moore as "friends" who needs enemies?

As Malcolm X once said, White "Progressives" and White Conservatives are nothing more than two sides of the same coin. Fuck 'em all.
Former Pacifica Radio
Programmer Kiilu Nyasha
Comments regarding Michael Moore's
Attack on Mumia Abu Jamal
10/21/03

Thanks so much for your timely post regarding Moore. Using Black people to
sell shit and fortify political positions is nothing new.

If you listened to Flashpoints Pacifica/KPFA) yesterday, you heard a
discussion about Moore's attack on Mumia discussed by his attorney,
Robert Bryan, Jeff Mackler and Dennis Bernstein. With the exception of
Bryan who was a guest by phone, they practically kissed mikes' fat ass.
I felt like puking when Bernstein played Moore's speech after exposing
his statements virtually condemning Mumia for murder.with the death
penalty still hanging over his head -- "...he did indeed kill the cop."
Another example of white liberalism, the kind that prompted Walter
Rodney to write: "The white liberals never like to be told that white
capitalist society is too rotten to be reformed."

These liberals suggest that Mike is really a "friend" and we can
probably get him to"retract" his statement (apparently by helping him
sell more books damning Mumia)!!!! They suggest in their discussion
that Moore doesn't really understand what the consequences of his words
might do to Mumia's case. Speaking with forked tongues out of two
sides of their mouths, on the one hand Moore is a brilliant political
satirist and on the other he's just politically naive?

Not only would I not call him a "friend," I'd like to slap him
silly...or worse. However, what I will do is NOT give him more
publicity since "any publicity is good publicity" in capitalist
America. I WILL work harder to get the truth out there about Mumia's
innocence.

We should all simply IGNORE THIS STUPID WHITE MAN and FREE MUMIA!

RE THE 911 EVENT: I was very glad I attended. I had never heard the
theories about the building collapses, etc. Major props and kudos to
the presenters who did a magnificently thorough job of research --
brilliant!

I hope you will be able to do another one in the near future allowing
enough advance time to get the word out far and wide -- esp. into the
Black/brown communities. Please remember, the most oppressed, targeted
victims of fascism will be in the forefront of the resistance.

Feel free to circulate this post.

In solidarity,

Kiilu

FLASH! BEFORE I COULD GET THIS OUT TO YOU, I HEARD MOORE'S VOICE AGAIN
ON KPFA. YUP! THEY'RE PLAYING HIS COMEDIC SPEECH AGAIN -- SELLING
STILL MORE BOOKS FOR HIS TURNCOAT ASS. NEEDLESS TO SAY, I SWITCHED
BACK TO KPOO.


This page was last updated on 10.22.03

homepage: homepage: http://www.leftgatekeepers.com/articles/KiiluNyashaCommentReMooreOnMumia.htm

HIS TURNCOAT ASS?? 27.Oct.2003 06:14

jr

Moore is not a Turncoat, he has since day one been a pure capitalist exploiting an underdeveloped niche and milking it for all its worth. He basically says so in his first movie "Rodger and Me". Just listen to the first 5 minutes of the movie. He tells you his background and how he moved back to Flint, and all the jobs when to hell, and he had to find some way of supporting himself, so he made a documentary about Flint and GM.

Moore is Just like Rush Limbaugh, or anyone one on the right side of the isle. Politicians peddle "Red Meat" for their audiences at a price. You have to vote for them if you want to hear more. Moore like Rush Limbaugh make you pay for your political Red Meat as you go, in the form of books, videos, etc.

There is nothing wrong with this, as long as you read the label and know what you are buying.

Agree 27.Oct.2003 07:18

Maldito Moore

Hopefully this stupid white man, making money out of the feelings from the opposition to the putrid powers, goes away soon. Michael Moore has been denounced but still many don't want to see the there is no truth in his books and movies. He is playing with our ignorance of facts. It is a crime what he has done to Mumia and he is accountable for that too.

Reject this parasite and support causes that make a difference not fat the pocket of Michael Moore, a very bad writer.

Peace

Mumidiots 27.Oct.2003 10:14

hah

Kilu can't even get the one fact in his rant correct. He says that Mumia still has the threat of the death penalty hanging over him. Actually, there is no threat of Mumia being put to death for the murder of Daniel Faulkner. A judge threw out Mumia's death penalty in 2001.

Now he's talking about slapping Moore ... or worse! Sounds like he is playing the angry black man role to the hilt.

factual awakening 27.Oct.2003 10:15

Darrow

This is a delicate issue because Mumia's case has become cause celebre (I think that phrase is approximately correct) and has garnered so much worldwide attention. Precisely because of this, we often lose sight of the facts of what is a relatively simple case. If you look at all of the evidence, there is NO question that Mumia killed the officer. My god, he was found on site, shot, with his gun by his side (which gun his own balistic expert at the first trial testified was in all liklihood the gun that killed the officer). This is not the sum total of all of the evidence against him, but is just used as illustrative of the evidence against him.

For those quick to jump on me, answer me two questions. First, why did Mumia's brother never proclaim Mumia's innocence at the outset? Second, why is it that, with the latest "confessor" coming forward, a great deal of the defense witnesses' testimony of years past (fully supported by Mumia then) DOES NOT FIT and directly contradicts the confessor's story?

Now, does he deserve the death penalty? Not at this point because its too late and it would not advance the interests of society. Should he serve the rest of his life in a cell? Probably not, because recidivism rates drop sharply the older one gets, and in Mumia's case, he's not likely to repeat his crime, thus the costs to society are too great to keep him, and most other prisoners in jail beyond middle age years. Will he serve the rest of his life in a cell? In all likelihood, short of video footage of someone else murdering the officer, yes its just the way the system is structured (and that's not a good thing or a bad thing).

Crap in the world 27.Oct.2003 11:29

anonymous

Support for Mumia Abu Jamal, or lack of it, has nothing to do with liberalism, progressivism, or conservatism. It has nothing to do with race either. It is dictated by an analysis of the facts, or an ignorance of the facts.

But anyway, the original poster is just continuing to do what Mumia has been doing all along, using politics and psychology to cloud the facts.

There's so much crap in the world.

Facts 27.Oct.2003 11:34

sadder but wiser

In chapter 10 of Michael Moore's book, "Dude, Where's My Country?," he states "Mumia probably killed that guy. There, I said it. That does not mean he should be denied a fair trial or that he should be put to death. But because we don't want to see him or anyone executed, the efforts to defend him may have overlooked the fact that he did indeed kill that cop. This takes nothing away from the eloquence of his writings or commentary, or the important place he now holds on the international political stage. But he probably did kill that guy."

That being said, I would tend to agree with Moore. Mumia probably did kill the cop. He should, however, receive a retrial because he didn't have a fair trial to begin with. But as Moore says, that doesn't change the fact that there's a good chance that he is, in fact, guilty.

This is no more racist of a statement than it is to say that OJ probably killed Nicole. If Mumia had the resources that OJ had, he might easily have gotten off the way OJ did. Justice and truth are two distinctly different things. A verdict of "guilty" or "not guilty" has nothing to do with truth. Would a verdict of "not guilty" serve justice (whatever that is?) Maybe. You decide.

Mumia is a phony 27.Oct.2003 12:02

Sly Stone

The only "cause celebre" for mumia is the rich white people who are feel guilty because they really don't have any black friends, so they cling to this phony because all their other white friends do. I don't know any black people who support mumia , except this Nyasha blowhard. Think for yourself people.

sadder but wiser 27.Oct.2003 12:18

thanks

Thanks for posting the full quote. Nothing bugs me more than taking a line like that out of context. Other than Mike's statement that Mumia probably did it, Mumia's would probably agree with the rest of the quote. In "Live from Death Row" Mumia clearly argued that his guilt or innocense was secondary. Mumia's thesis is theat the death penalty is wrong, period, and that "criminal justice system" is indeed "criminal" but not really very "just." Mumia's writing is briliant, but anybody who denies that he might have killed a cop, whether in self defense or not, is just being dogmatic. Killing a cop doesn't invalidate Mumia's work or his person. If anything his reading his work makes me very understanding of why he might have killed a cop.

Progressives declare they can be judge and jury, but stop short of execution 27.Oct.2003 12:26

Fred

I'm really dissapointed to see the statements above that declare 'he did it' by people who have read the transcripts.

1) You were not in the courtroom.
2) You were not at the scene.
3) You do not have a law degree.

My guess would be that the same people who claim to know that 'he did it,' also probably know what happened during 9/11. These same people probably also know that the voting machines are 'fine.' Maybe since you all know so much about things that happened at events that you didn't attend, you should also tell us who shot MLK, JFK, etc. And where is Osama, while you're at it? How about Patty Hearst - what was the truth with that? And OJ? Since you all know what the actual truth is in courtroom cases, why not let the rest of us in on your special knowledge from the transcripts? Oh, and how about the Vietnam war - why did it end?

I was at the event where the woman who wrote this spoke about it. She pointed out how many people, of a huge variety of backgrounds, have supported Mumia's case, and it made Moore look ridiculous. I wish she'd included that list here.

But here, all this knowledge from people who weren't even at the scene of any of these events. Sad. You're really setting yourselves up for being easily controlled by the packaged info you get via 'the media.' And you call yourself progressives?

You're all the first one's to jump on the Moore bandwagon. And sure, Moore's done good stuff. But wait until he's helped install Wesley Clark, and the bombs start to fall. Will you be rushing to defend him then, too?

Facts about Mumia's 1982 trial 27.Oct.2003 12:36

repost

"I remain innocent. A court cannot make an innocent man guilty. Any ruling founded on injustice is not justice. The righteous fight for life, liberty, and for justice can only continue." Mumia Abu-Jamal , Oct. 31, 1998

Facts about Mumia's 1982 trial:

* The policeman was killed with a 44 caliber gun. Abu-Jamal's gun which he was licensed to carry as a night-time taxi driver, was a 38 caliber.

* The police never tested Abu-Jamal's gun to see if it had been recently fired. They never tested his hands to see if he had fired a gun. They have never shown Abu-Jamal 's gun to be the fatal weapon.

* No police officers present at Abu-Jamal's arrest claimed to have heard Jamal's "confession" until two months after it allegedly occurred. This was right after Abu-Jamal had filed police brutality charges.

* Abu-Jamal's doctor said that Abu-Jamal, who was unconscious, said nothing. He reported that a nurse found police with loaded guns pointed at Mumia as he lay unconscious in his hospital bed.

* William Singletary, a Vietnam veteran and local businessman, saw the whole incident and has testified that Abu-Jamal was not the shooter. However, the police forced him to change his story and intimidated him into leaving Philadelphia.

* Other key witnesses, such as Veronica Jones -- who now testifies in support of Abu-Jamal, were harassed into giving false testimony. Two prosecution witnesses were given special favors, including exemption from criminal prosecution, for their testimony.

Elements in an unfair trial:

* The Judge, Albert Sabo, sentenced more people to death than any other sitting judge in the US.

* The public defender didn't interview a single witness in preparation for the trial, and didn't have funds for defending a capital case.

* The prosecutor removed 11 qualified African Americans from the jury. He also argued for the death penalty because of Mumia's membership in the Black Panther Party, a practice later condemned as unconstitutional by the US Supreme Court.

* The racial bias of Philadelphia's courts has resulted in 120 people on death row, all but 13 non-white.
 http://www.freemumia.org/intro.html

C'mon, Fred 27.Oct.2003 12:40

sadder but wiser

You're right, Fred. We weren't at the scene. Nor were you. That is why we are saying that although the facts point away from his innocence, he should have a fair trial. What could be more American than that?

And no, I don't know the whereabouts of Osama, but I don't really see how one thing has anything to do with the other.

What could be more American than that? 27.Oct.2003 12:54

Fred

I don't define myself by how 'American' I am, and I don't see individuals declaring decisions for events they were not involved in to be more 'Amerian' than those who don't. That's why we have juries and the jury talks to eachother and sorts things out together. We don't have people in their homes read transcripts on paper and make decisions that they email in.

"That is why we are saying that although the facts point away from his innocence, he should have a fair trial"
Millions of people are about to read a huge best-seller that makes the statement - "Mumia probably killed that guy. There, I said it." We all know that Americans will read that quite differently than a statement like, "although the facts point away from his innocence." It's simple propaganda. At least Moore had the sense to say 'probably,' as in, he probably doesn't want a lawsuit on himself.

I never said anyone said he shouldn't have a fair trial. I said that people are making conlusions from an event they don't have all the parts to, playing jury and judge.

Oh, but not yet declaring he should die by lethal injection or electric shock.

Mumidiots2 27.Oct.2003 13:08

hah

Official ballistics tests show that the bullet that killed the cop was fired from Mumia's gun -- a .38 caliber revolver, nota .44 caliber. The .44 caliber myth comes from a handwritten note by Assistant Medical Examiner, Dr. Paul Hoyer. But this was just his own speculation about the kind of bullet that created the wound before he started the autopsy and was not a part of the state's evidence.


www.danielfaulkner.com
www.justice4danielfaulkner.com

44 vs 35 isn't the issue I'm talking about 27.Oct.2003 13:27

Fred

I'm not going to start arguing each point of the trial. You can post all the evidence and links you want, but that isn't the point of my post. My post is to show that people are being led down a dangerous path by Moore - declaring innocence or guilt from the armchair, without discussion, without a full array of evidence from both sides. Moore doesn't give the background for his decision, nor the reason he CHANGED his deicsion. But now millions will read it.

the Mumia nightmare 27.Oct.2003 14:53

Franz Kafka

It's really annoying that someone like Michael Moore is simply not allowed to tell the truth about Mumia, no matter how much he qualifies and prefaces his statements with strong statements clarifying his principled opposition to the death penalty. One doesn't have to be a "racist" or "rightwing sellout" to have profound doubts about Mumia's innocence, about the tawdry politicization of his case by elements of the left that have been eternal enemies of democratic principles, like the Maoist RCP, or misgivings about the extremely unbecoming, circus-like atmosphere that prevailed around Mumia in court during the trial. One can simultaneously believe that the cops may indeed have conspired to bolster their case with tainted evidence, that the thuggish political regime of Frank Rizzo's Philadelphia probably had it in for him, and that Mumia has probably spent more than enough years in jail for his crime at this point, even if guilty, while also rejecting the arguments promoted by RCP types trumpeting Mumia as "political prisoner" who got "framed for a crime he had nothing to do with." Sorry, but the substantive arguments for these claims are just weak on their merits.

Array of Evidence 27.Oct.2003 15:20

hah

Fred: The array of evidence that you wish to be aired is provided in those links that I listed. Court transcripts, timelines, etc. It's all there. And it's dammning to Mumia's claims of innocence.

Mumia likes to style himself a "political prisoner" but he was not a thorn in the side of the Rizzo administration. He was a failed radio broadcaster driving a cab to make ends meet. Not exactly a threat to the establishment. There's no reason to want to set him up. It does the government/cops no good to have a fake cop killer in jail while a real one is on the loose.

I was at a Mumia event in Philadelphia and his face was staring out at me from T-shirts, mugs, posters, etc. I asked the woman (a white woman by the way) who was staffing the event that given the plethora of Mumia goods how could she seriously claim that he is not "a poster child" for the anti-white, anti-American movement. Her response was: "Mumia's not a poster child, because Mumia wouldn't want that." This while rows upon rows of Mumia gear faced us.

Ack.

What Franz Kafka said 27.Oct.2003 15:35

sadder but wiser

Well put.

The array of evidence that you wish to be aired 27.Oct.2003 16:02

Fred

My concern is not the array of evidence. My concern is making judgements of people from the armchair. We still happen to have a jury system in this country (don't worry, that will probably go by the wayside soon, which the right-wing will be glad to be rid of), and it exists for a reason. You may read the transcripts and think one thing and you may be correct, but it's an entirely different matter when you're making a decision and then printing it in the top selling book IN THE NATION to be viewed detail by detail by everyone, and now probably championed by the right. Moore can have his opinions on a court decision, but why print it for millions to read? How does Moore benefit from this? Simple - acceptance by the right and centrists, to show he is not a flake. In the process, one black man moves closer to world condemnation, and in the Bush climate, potential execution. Moore thinks he's done a decent thing and will benefit from it himself.

As for evidence, people sift through evidence they feel is important to them. You sift through Mumia evidence, I sift through 9/11 evidence.

The difference is that no one in the Bush Adminstration will ever be executed over 9/11. No police officers will be executed for the many murders they commit every year against people who are lying in bed when they burst through the door and end up shooting them because they got startled. No police will be executed for throwing a flash grenade into a tiny apartment in NYC and killing an elderly city worker of 20 years. No IDF soldier will be executed for the many innocents they shoot in Palestine. No US soldier will ever be executed for killing the many civilians they have. No CEO will be executed for the thousands of deaths caused by corporations all over the world.

But here's Michael Moore condeming one black man for a murder whose truth is debated around the world. Moore shows us that we need no jury - we can decide he should be in jail for life on our own, from the safety and comfort of our own home, and think we've done a good thing by criticizing someone on the left who 'deserves' it. Why should we only condemn the right? We MUST condemn the left as well.

This is how Moore thinks he will win over the centrists and the right. He hasn't yet figured out what Gray Davis and Al Gore had to find out the hard way - you lose when you move to the center from the left. The right isn't going to suddenly embrace you, and the left will no longer support you when you betray them.

Moore would rather attempt to rise to the top on the back of a black man than get there on his own.

Lighten up, Fred 27.Oct.2003 16:24

sadder but wiser

Michael Moore talked about Mumia in the chapter, "How to Talk to Your Conservative Brother-in-Law" in his book. The point that he is making in that chapter is that we need to find a common ground to get conservatives over to our point of view. He points out that intense dogma isn't going to do it--it just shuts people down. If you want to have a dialogue with someone on the other side (or even people who would otherwise tend to agree with you) it's best not to be sarcastic and insulting.

Example: "My guess would be that the same people who claim to know that 'he did it,' also probably know what happened during 9/11. These same people probably also know that the voting machines are 'fine.' Maybe since you all know so much about things that happened at events that you didn't attend, you should also tell us who shot MLK, JFK, etc. And where is Osama, while you're at it? How about Patty Hearst - what was the truth with that? And OJ? Since you all know what the actual truth is in courtroom cases, why not let the rest of us in on your special knowledge from the transcripts? Oh, and how about the Vietnam war - why did it end?"

Fred 27.Oct.2003 16:25

hah

As I stated above, Mumia's death sentence was vacated in 2001. It might help to know some facts before you get all inflamed about a situation.

Pile it on 27.Oct.2003 17:43

Darrow

Earlier in the day, I had a lengthy post describing the appellate process in this country and the concept of standard of review (ie, de novo review vs. clear error review), and comparing it to our so-called arm chair justice. However, damned be technology and my absentmindedness because I neglected to insert a title and author, hit submit, and voila, my words disappeared. Thus, a brief rebuttal to Fred. You state "We still happen to have a jury system in this country (don't worry, that will probably go by the wayside soon, which the right-wing will be glad to be rid of), and it exists for a reason." Well, because of that jury system, one can state for an undisputed legal certainty that Mumia is guilty of the crime of murdering the police officer without personally reviewing any of the evidence available to us. However, fortunately we do have transcripts and other records (many of which are not admissible in court) so that we can form our OWN OPINIONS as to Mumia's guilt or innocence (your logic of why we can't would disqualify most of us from discussing the "war" or politics in general) From my review of the transcripts and witness statements, and the contradictions of the defense's case, I am convinced beyond all reasonable doubt that Mumia murdered the police officer. I guess my frustration with Mumia's case lies in the fact expressed by a few others here that we all must "toe the company line" so to speak and believe in Mumia's innocence. The mentality that, because we believe in certain ideals, we must believe in this idea too or we are not true fighters for a revolution in thinking. Yes, Mumia is an intelligent and thoughtful writer, yes, the criminal justice system in this country is completely f'd up. That still does not change the fact in my mind that he murdered that police officer in cold blood. No amount of good that he does can make up for that.

Sorry, I'm a NYer - no lightening up 27.Oct.2003 18:14

Fred

""How to Talk to Your Conservative Brother-in-Law""
Thanks but no thanks. I'd rather continue to live 3000 miles away from conservative relatives and keep my values, than water them down and fake it so that I can talk to them.

"we need to find a common ground to get conservatives over to our point of view."
Wow, I'm glad I'm not a conservative relative - sounds like my leftist relative is going to shine up to me not for who I am, or because they care, but to get me over to 'our point of view.' Conservative relatives are human too. I find the things that I know we have in common already - i.e. alternative energy - and we talk about that. I try to respect who they are as people, once I realize that they won't part with their flag.

"If you want to have a dialogue with someone on the other side (or even people who would otherwise tend to agree with you) it's best not to be sarcastic and insulting."
The results are not intended to create dialog with the other side. Sarcasm is intended to add emphasis to my points. I don't write on indymedia to convince centrists or liberals of my points. I write here because I learn and because I need to.

"That still does not change the fact in my mind that he murdered that police officer in cold blood."
The point is not that you are or are not convinced as an individual. The point is that you aren't writing a best seller and distributing it to millions of people professing your views. You can believe all you want from transcripts and evidence that the jury wasn't allowed to see, but thinking you then have the right to decide and then broadcast to millions of people the fate of another person without having ever been either in the courtroom or at the scene is the issue. There's a difference between writing something on Indymedia and writing it into a best seller at the top of the NYT list, as this will no doubt be.

But speaking of things in common, I also tend to lose long monologues on here easily and it's a real bit**! Now I copy everything before I hit publish. See? Something in common and respectful without trying to sway you over to anyplace. Just conversation.

I think the point is Sales. 27.Oct.2003 20:05

jr

Moore is making a point, you can't sell someone anything by telling them what an insensitive moronic jackoff they are.

When was the last time you saw a commercial on TV pitching a McDonald's Cheeseburger, Toyota Camry, or politician to represent you that flipped you the bird and told you that you are a total buffoon and they hope you die a miserable death?

Sales is about winning hearts and minds. If you aren't interesting in converting people's thinking to your side, then read no further.

Some people are really good born salesmen, and others have to work on it. I think that was the only point Moore was trying to make, and basically he semi-plagiarized Dale Carnegie's "How to win friends and influence people." A book from the 1930's.

Carnegie writes that Everybody knows Hitler is a bad guy, but if you were trying to convince Hitler that he was evil, you couldn't do it because everyone thinks of themselves as being a fair and decent person, including Hitler. So you don't spend your time trying to point out why someone is a complete bastard, because all you will do is alienate them, even if they really are a complete and utter bastard.

It's a good read, that has sold millions of copies over the years.

sad to see 28.Oct.2003 07:09

spider

It is sad to see so many comments supporting Moore in his reprehensible statement
about Mumia's guilt. The lack of political awareness is awesome.

Mumia is recognized internationally as a political prisoner.

Mumia's trial was a sham.

Mumia created many enemies by his support of the MOVE family. Their flaming execution
by the Philidelphia police shows the lengths they were willing to go to punish those
that would offer an alternative paradigm to this racist state.

Free Mumia NOW!

Re sales 28.Oct.2003 10:33

Fred

"a commercial on TV pitching a McDonald's Cheeseburger, Toyota Camry, " - or Moore's latest bestseller, you can add to that list.

You're right (partially) 28.Oct.2003 10:55

sadder but wiser

"Mumia is recognized internationally as a political prisoner.

"Mumia's trial was a sham.

"Mumia created many enemies by his support of the MOVE family. Their flaming execution
by the Philidelphia police shows the lengths they were willing to go to punish those
that would offer an alternative paradigm to this racist state."

You're right, of course. His trial was a sham. He should have a new trial--a fair trial.

That being said, however, it does not necessarily follow that he is innocent.

Fuck all you stupid white...cops 28.Oct.2003 11:50

not stupid, not white, not a man

So why is it up to stupid white men to determine the rest of Mumia Abu Jamal's life? Why do they all feel entitled to being "right" at the expense of the lives of countless people who's own eloquent, experienced, and completely informed voices aren't taken seriosuly because they are black, native, poor, political, non-male, incarcerated, formerly incarcerated, single mothers, ex-junkies, handicapped, young...etc...

That MOVE was massacred, that Black people were in essence weeded off Mumia's Jury, that a trial by "peers" was made up of those determined unstained by the biases of being actually peers of Mumia, means that he was deemed from the beginning as stained, as guilty until proven innocent. And you don't need to believe me. Look at the incarceration rates of poor vs. middle and upper class people, look at the rates of people of color vs. white people. They will NEVER let the proof of Mumia's innocence reach daylight, if it up to them. If it is up to YOU. (For here your interests are one in the same...as illustrated by this conversation).

I would personally support Mumia whether or not he killed thecop, for in my eyes, the cops are an occupying army put here and everywhere to extract resources from our communities, and to keep the great american prison hostage crisis in full effect to maintain our collective compliance. I would work for his freedom whether or not he was innocent, for in these circumstances it becomes clearer and clearer that the consequences of either scenario are the same for him. Our demands for his freedom will only be met when either the legal system is forced to aknowledge that this was a politically motivated persecution, and that there are indeed MANY political prisoners in the united states, and that legally Mumia is innocent; or our political force tips the balance of cost and benefit of the state's incarceration of Mumia and whoever has the power over the lock and key decide that it is no longer prudent to hold him hostage and make his pain an example to the rest of us.

Mumia WILL NOT die for our sins! Fuck all you stupid white men (or whoever you might be) who assume that Mumia in any way deserves what he is getting. Check your overseer complex, and rethink your loyalties. In future times of greater polarization, you might have to make that hard decision between your comfortable privledged status; and the truthfully human struggle for freedom, by any means functional and necessary.

Is it really about Mumia? 28.Oct.2003 18:46

Justice Evans

An issue like this turns out to create a nice dialog between members of this method of thought that we call left of right. Michael Moore is attacked and defended for his comments, but early on, nobody really seems to know why they take the position they do. As the dialog progresses, we see a shift...positions polarize...and interestingly, probably due to the human Michael Moore is, voices of reason begin to stand out. Also argumentative, defensive Liberal voices that are so hellbent on being Liberal that they begin to sound ridiculous appear. Luckily, though, at the heart of this dialog, once again, is Michael Moore.

I am definitly a member of the left of right party, and I think Michael Moore is a good spokesperson for we voices of reason. There are many of us out there, but not enough of us who speak out. We are able to be American, yet question the nature of our emotionally confusing Government. We recognize that traditional principles, the basic idea of law, nature and the American Way are good principles, but that they have somehow become terribly skewed. We see that there really is a chance to fix all of it, but it can only be fixed if people are willing. We recognize that hellbent Liberalism is just as bad as hellbent Conservatism. Michael Moore and all the rest of us see that there is a definite split between the two schools of thought, and that aligning with one or the other, unless you are resilient and strong willed, will eat you alive.

Michael Moore does and has always done a good job of understanding who people...People...really are, and that is why his arguments are so compelling...especially to those who will listen...Left OR Right. What he and everyone else who leans left of right feels is that extremism is exatly that...Extremism. Be it to the Left, be it to the Right, Extremism hurts the cause of fixing all of it (and THAT is the true goal of people who lean left of right...fixing it all). Extreme information creates Extreme thought which creates Extreme action which creates Extreme defeat because Extremism is a big fat turn-off to the broader American public and to the world. You can't change their minds by yelling in their face. They WILL stop listening.

There is much more, and that is what needs to be talked about.

White Liberals=White Conservatives in Sheep's Clothing 28.Oct.2003 19:42

Malcom X Grassroots Movement

All the rhetoric here fromt he White Liberals about how we "have to avoid dogma and dialgoue with the conservatives" or avoid "extremism" (as defined by whom?) is pure and unadultered b.s. and once again proves what everyone should know: White Liberals and Progressives are a Political fraud of the first order.

These clowns play the role of a Political Good Cop to the Right Wing Bad Cop giving benevolent advice to others to soften and domesticate their agenda in order to appease Mainstream America.

I have news for ya. Mainstream America is rotten to the core. Appeasement and kowtowing to these bastards will get you nowhere.

As the quote from Walter Rodney above suggests: The white liberals never like to be told that white capitalist society is too rotten to be reformed."

Its so damned frustrating... 28.Oct.2003 20:00

Justice Evans

You tell a kid they are bad over and over and over, and they will be bad. You tell yourself that there is no saving anything, no redemption for the "American Mainstream" because they are "rotten to the core" enough times and you will really and truly give up. And that, my friends, my Liberals, is what you have done in being so extreme. "Extreme" in this context means being extreme of thought: You hate the American Public because to you they are so knaive that they can know nothing of what you feel and believe. Conservatives hate you because you will refuse to accept their ideals and morals, i.e. religion and finances, and in fact, you hate them BECAUSE of those things.

These thoughts in no way seek to play "Political Good Cop to the Right Wing Bad Cop giving benevolent advice to others to soften and domesticate their agenda in order to appease Mainstream America." Its not about choosing Left over Right or advancing an agenda on either side, its not about appeasing Mainstream America, it IS about UNDERSTANDING that there IS a Mainstream America and that they CAN be gotten to...and if you get to them, you can do ANYTHING. You have accepted the math: There are a shit-ton of people out there who cannot and do not think beyond whatever they are fed...but it pisses you off so much that you quit on them. Instead of being so mad that they will readily accept whatever it is that they are fed, find a way to feed them something different. The question remains: How do you GET to them?

I say take out a SuperBowl ad.

white liberals 29.Oct.2003 06:20

sadder but wiser

You write, "white liberal" as though it is some sort of insult. Rush Limbaugh is insulting. Lars Larson is insulting. It certainly isn't any cuter when someone from the left is hurling insults at anyone who has the temerity to suggest that they have a differing point of view than it is when one of them does it.

No one is going to agree 100% of the time with another person on every issue. (If you do, one of you is redundant.) It's okay to have differing points of view as long as you keep dialogue open; you might learn something. But the attitude of "I'm right and you're wrong--neener, neener, neener!" does nothing but turn people off to your point of view, and frankly it makes you look immature.

Yes, I'm a white liberal and I'm okay with that. Celebrate diversity.

Why is everyone talking about 'Liberals' on here? 29.Oct.2003 11:10

Fred

You mean 'Liberals' like Clinton, who created NAFTA, designed to destroy third world economies? Clinton, who bombed two countries in one day and who allowed the sanctions to continue in Iraq, killing more children than bombs in Hiroshima? who started the first steps towards privatizing public parks? Or maybe 'Liberals' like Gore, who put up no fight at all after they knew that so many voters were taken off the rolls? Liberals who BLOCK taking money out of the elections at every turn? who BLOCK instant runoff voting? Who say nothing about the stealing of our democracy by voting machines with compromised security, described by computer scientists as 'jaw-dropping?'

Why would people be proud to be a 'Liberal'?

don't call me liberal 29.Oct.2003 11:35

zotu

I find many Indymedia writers fall into the category of "fuck you and your kind--everything you say is against me and I hate you." I'm pleased that there are so many of us with such deep passion for our beliefs that we practically scream about them in this forum. Without this passion, I doubt anyone would be moved to action.

That said, I believe that arguing with the "fuck you" folks is a silly waste of time. With a sentence or two one can fall into the "your kind" abyss, never to be redeemed. I don't see how Fred would ever in a million years like Michael Moore or a single thing he's written. And that's fine, because I'm sure there are writers Fred prefers whom I cannot stomach. I'm sure not going to spend any time arguing with Fred about his opinions. He is not the enemy. I may be Fred's enemy, but he's not mine.

I agree with the statement: "I would personally support Mumia whether or not he killed the cop, for in my eyes, the cops are an occupying army . . . to maintain our collective compliance." I think this is a brilliant summation of the crisis at hand. I bet you could get Michael Moore to agree with it as well. Now, are we going to jump all over "not stupid, not white, not a man" for saying "...he killed the cop..." taken so wonderfully out of context, like so many MM quotes?

And whoever said Michael Moore had to be 100% radical in order to do any good in the world. The truth is, he says/writes some pretty inflamatory things, and not all of them are going to be supported by everyone. He's all the time putting down the powers that be, and he gets away with it! Did you actually see the Academy Awards? If he's such a "mainstream" capitalist filmmaker, whose work has (recently) begun to sell in the millions and is awarded an Oscar, why did he risk offending his "centrist and rightest" heros by getting on stage and proclaiming that Bush is a fictitious president, that his reasons for war are fictitious and then chant "shame on you, Bush"--on TV, in front of millions of stuffy celebritry-obsessed mainstream people all over the world? Who cares "why" he did it. Who cares if it's all to make money. He said it, everybody knows he said it, and I feel he said it because he believes it. How can this be a problem for us progressives? I saw Bowling for Columbine advertised as just one more movie you can order on pay-per-view, right along side such other classics as Daddy Daycare. How can it be a bad thing when such this radical movie shows up on pay-per-view, like it's just another silly movie. People will order that movie and they will watch it. People will be offended. People will start to think. How is this a bad thing?

And let's not forget Justice Evans: "Extreme information creates Extreme thought which creates Extreme action which creates Extreme defeat because Extremism is a big fat turn-off to the broader American public and to the world."

If you ask me, Michael Moore can be quite extreme. Many progressives I know were embarrassed for Charleton Heston (if you can believe it) for the "badgering " he took from MM at the end of Bowling for Columbine. They felt MM was being too extreme. Fine. Let him be extreme. It gets the word out.

Moore and the Saudi responsibility for 911 29.Oct.2003 23:46

Fred

"And I will say -- one more time for the record-- that the destabilization and balkanization of Saudi Arabia with 25% of known oil reserves remains near the top of the main agenda. All of that oil lies in a very small area of land near the east coast of a country that we already have surrounded. All "we" need do is convince the American people of Saudi responsibilities for 9/11 in a way that will make convenient intervention tasteful to a war-weary American public that just doesn't get the concept of perpetual war. Then the US will help the Saudi regime crack from the inside and threaten regional stability, as the pretext for the seizure. In my opinion, the next president will be the one who can convince the powers that be that he can pull off that agenda, and sell it to the American people and the world"
 http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/102003_beyond_bush_2.html

Stupid White Men 02.Aug.2005 07:36

Larkin Huey larkinhuey@yahoo.com

Remember, black America, they're only Stupid White Men when they disagree with you! Below is a copy of the letter I sent to all the Web sites supporting 'Mumia' and to everyone who refuses to examine all the evidence heard at the trial. I'm appalled when I see a race of people support a person of the same race, simply because of his race. It's insane. Mumia and OJ are prime examples of the racism of blacks in this country. Shame on you people! Your website reminds me of the movie Fahrenheit 911. You take all the information that's available, and then you do whatever you want to with it. If it pushes your agenda in the right direction, freeing the beloved 'Mumia' of course, you keep it, but if the evidence doesn't fit, you toss it out like so much garbage. That's exactly what the 911 producer did. If you examine all the evidence, you'll come to same conclusion I came to. Why don't you try getting Danny Glover and Muhammed Ali to help a white victim on death row for a change? But they won't do that. They're just too racist. If you people supported us sometimes, you might get a better reception from our community when a black defendant is supposedly wrongfully convicted. Sure, you have some of us on your side, but you could have a lot more if you weren't so racist. I must say this too, after seeing all the evidence, and I mean all the evidence, your side and theirs, it became painfully obvious that 'Mumia' is where he belongs, and if he is ever executed, it will be well deserved. Trying showing a little concern toward that policeman's family. Wait a minute, you can't be concerned about that policeman's family. Why? Because they're white. You people are so racist. I don't really expect an answer to this letter, but if I do get one, it'll probably be someone calling me racist. Bear in mind that it is possible to think a black defendant is guilty, like 'Mumia' or OJ, without being racist, when the evidence speaks for itself. But if you did call me racist, feel free, I know you people couldn't possibly be wrong about anything. Your brothers in prison, and especially the ones on death row, are all innocent, aren't they? On second thought, please do respond to this letter. I love reading your racist garbage. Keep writing it and you'll continue polarizing this country worse that it has ever been before. And you have the nerve to blame it on the white man. Take responsibility for your own actions sometimes. Don't come to my house though, I know how violent you people can be. Just keep in mind that if you do, my lawyer has a copy of this letter. Sincerely yours, Larkin Huey