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imperialism & war

The Fascist Fraternity

A history of the collaboration of German and American capitalists during World War 2 to not only profit from war, but to spread fascism as well.
In his book Trading With The Enemy, Charles Higham designates as The Fraternity that group of American and German capitalists who were very supportive of the Nazi ideology and developed intimate financial and patent connections between their corporations. Corporations belonging to The Fraternity were ITT, General Motors, Ford, Standard Oil of New Jersey, Texaco, SKF and German corporations like I.G. Farben, Krupp and others. These corporations were so supportive of the Nazis that they built many of their weapons and supplied them with oil, while the American people suffered from oil rationing during World War 2. Individual capitalists belonging to The Fraternity were the Rockefellers, Fords, DuPonts, Morgans and the Bush family through Prescott Bush and George Herbert Walker being on the board of Brown Brothers Harriman, which invested heavily in Nazi Germany.

One of the American subsidiaries of I.G. Farben called General Aniline and Film did extensive spying operations for the Nazis in the US and was very successful at it. General Aniline itself produced the khaki and blue dyes for army, air force and navy uniforms, giving its salesmen access to many US military bases. In addition, General Aniline owned Agfa and Ansco films and Ozalid, a blueprint corporation. Its salesmen persuaded the US military to use their film and have it developed in their laboratories. Consequently, photos of secret US military installations went straight into Nazi hands, as did the blueprints of American military plans through the Ozalid company.

Rockefeller's Standard Oil of New Jersey was so flagrant in violating the Trading with the Enemy Act that it was called before two Senate committees, the Truman Committee and the Bone Committee. Standard Oil of New Jersey was in partnership with I.G. Farben, the company which used slave labor at Auschwitz, and supplied the Germans with synthetic rubber and tetraethyl lead for aviation gasoline. Standard Oil was also guilty of using German crews on its tankers and refueling Nazi submarines at Teneriffe in the Canary Islands, as well as shipping oil to Nazi Germany through Spain and Switzerland. Nothing came of these Senate hearings as Standard Oil essentially blackmailed the US government by stating that they could stop US oil shipments in a time of war.

The German and American capitalists of The Fraternity liked fascism, but they didn't like Hitler after they discovered the deranged nature of his mind. What they wanted was a united front of fascist countries aligned against the common foe, the Soviet Union. In other words, they would have liked to depose President Roosevelt and convert the US to a fascist power and likewise bring fascism to England. The DuPonts and Morgans actually approached Major General Smedley Butler through an intermediary to determine if a military coup could be organized to oust Roosevelt. Major General Butler was deeply offended and reported the plot to Roosevelt. Irenee du Pont was very fascistic and organized both the American Liberty League and the Black Legion. The American Liberty League taught hatred of blacks, Jews, Roosevelt and communism. The Black Legion was a group of antiunion thugs, who would go through DuPont's General Motors plants and terrorize workers and disrupt union organizing. The Fords and DuPonts also made use of the expertise of another member of The Fraternity, Charles Bedaux. He was a so-called efficiency expert, whose thoughts revolved around extracting the maximum amount of labor out of a worker in the minimum amount of time. This resulted in speedups on the assembly lines of Ford and General Motors and more accidents among workers.

Since the capitalists in The Fraternity considered Hitler deranged and a loose cannon, they attempted frequently to do two things. They wanted to arrange a peace agreement between Nazi Germany and the western allies, the United States and England. This would enable all German forces to be transferred to the Russian front. Failing this objective, they wanted to assassinate Hitler and immediately negotiate peace with the western allies. The most spectacular effort to negotiate peace was when Rudolph Hess flew to Scotland to pursue a peace negotiation with the Duke of Hamilton, who had Nazi sympathies, as did much of England's nobility, including the former king, the Duke of Windsor. Other peace negotiations occurred in Sweden with Jacob Wallenberg (another member of The Fraternity through Enskilda Bank and SKF, the important ball bearings firm) and near the end of the war with Allen Dulles in Switzerland. Allen Dulles was a corporate lawyer, who was deeply involved with The Fraternity, having written many of the patents and corporate agreements during his tenure at the firm Sullivan and Cromwell.

There were a group of German generals, intellectuals, politicians and former diplomats who hated Hitler and Nazism. The generals did so mostly because of military defeats and Hitler's tendency to micromanage military strategy and the others because they hated the repression and savagery of Hitler's regime. They had conspired against Hitler since before the annexation of Czechoslovakia, and these plots grew progressively more serious as the war continued. The Fraternity was behind the scenes, backing these plots. Walter Schellenberg was the head of SD, the intelligence branch of the SS, and he was also on the board of ITT and helped protect many prominent conspirators. The banker Hjalmar Schacht, a powerful Fraternity member, wanted to depose Hitler. Admiral Canaris and other members of the Abwehr or Army Intelligence were against Hitler. However, only after the disastrous defeat of the German army at Stalingrad in 1942 did these plots start to involve bombings. A bomb was placed on Hitler's airplane by conspirators Schlabrendorff and General von Tresckow, but the detonator failed to fire on Hitler's flight from Smolensk in Russia to his bunker at Rastenburg in Prussia. Next Colonel Gersdorff tried to assassinate Hitler by getting near to him with a bomb strapped to his chest during a celebration in Berlin. The bomb had a ten minute fuse and Hitler changed his plans and wanted to spend only eight minutes there and so the plan was scrapped. Hitler wanted a new army overcoat modeled, and there were two more attempts with bombs in the overcoat, but Hitler kept changing his schedule and both attempts failed. Finally, there was an attempt that nearly succeeded, when Count von Stauffenberg planted a bomb in a briefcase under the table at a military meeting in Rastenburg and then flew to Berlin to organize a military takeover. The bomb exploded killing and wounding several military men, but Hitler survived and took savage revenge on the conspirators by having some of the conspirators hung by piano wire from meathooks and their families sent to concentration camps. A couple of the conspirators, who were members of The Fraternity, were so directly involved that for his personal safety Schellenberg could not prevent their execution. Generals Fellgiebel and Thiele, both directors of ITT in Germany, were executed. General Fellgiebel had cut the communication lines from Rastenburg to Berlin. Hitler had a suspicion that more members of The Fraternity were involved because Karl Lindeman of Standard Oil was arrested as was Hjalmar Schacht. Some generals on the western front, who were in on the plot, like Rommel and von Kluge were given the choice to commit suicide rather than risk retribution to their families and they did so.

After the fall of the Third Reich, the capitalists of The Fraternity largely escaped any punishment or consequences for their actions in support of fascism. The American capitalists not only went unpunished, but received compensation from the taxpayers for damage to their factories in Germany and France. Most of the German capitalists were not prosecuted, or if they were, received relatively light sentences and had their capital property returned to them on their release from prison. Alfried Krupp, who was guilty of using slave labor from concentration camps and brutally treating those slaves, was sentenced to twelve years, but served only three and was pardoned in the general amnesty US High Commissioner John McCloy issued in 1951. Krupp received all his capital property back. I.G. Farben continued its operations and only in the Russian zone was a serious attempt made to dismantle the corporation.

Does this Fascist Fraternity still exist and try to spread fascism and corporate domination of the Earth? Judging from the actions of the IMF and World Bank in demanding privatization, deregulation and structural adjustments in Third World countries for the benefit of corporations much to the detriment of workers, peasants and small businesses and President George W. Bush's wars for control of the Earth's oil reserves, I would have to have to say definitely yes.

One very important lesson in this long article is that even while capitalist powers are at war, they consider socialism to be an even greater threat than the victory of opposing ruling classes. This is logical because with the victory of the armies of an opposing ruling class, they may lose some wealth in war reparations or damage to property, but they usually don't lose everything as they do when a socialist government nationalizes their capital property. The Fraternity was very worried by the rapid advance of the Red Army across Europe, and the Vatican was very disturbed by much of Catholic Eastern Europe going to godless communism, as they perceived the situation. Hence, the frantic efforts to negotiate a peace on the western front and have forces transferred to fight the Russians.

There are other examples of this collaboration of ruling classes of different nationalities in the face of the socialist threat. The Paris Commune, where the workers of Paris took over the city in 1871 and set up their own government, occurred during the Franco-Prussian war, when the French army was quickly defeated and the Prussians surrounded Paris. The rich left Paris and established a counterrevolutionary government at Versailles. The Prussians were so worried by the example of the Paris Commune that they released French prisoners of war and allowed the French counterrevolutionary army through their lines to attack Paris. The London Times wrote editorials against the Paris Commune, the Czar of Russia asked the Prussians to overthrow it and Bismarck himself said that if the French government at Versailles didn't act quickly enough, the Prussian army itself would destroy the Paris Commune. Of course, another example is when the ruling classes of all capitalist nations sent armies into Russia to destroy the Bolshevik revolution and its possible threat to their wealth and power.

The information in this article comes largely from three books: Trading With The Enemy by Charles Higham, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William Shirer and a a chapter called The Pirates of Wall Street in the book The Secret War Against the Jews by John Loftus and Mark Aarons.

homepage: homepage: http://www.theblackflag.org

another excellent WWII history book is SAVING PRIVATE POWER 06.Oct.2003 12:09


Saving Private Power is the most provocative history of the "Good War" ever published. It questions the ultra-patriotic assumptions we have been taught since birth.

The U.S. did not enter WWII to end the Holocaust, to make the world a safer place, or to stop fascism. The opposite is true. The U.S. business class traded with Hitler and Mussolini up to and even during the war. Henry Ford and Charles Lindbergh's public Hitlerphilia were symbolic of big business's admiration for Hitler's anticommunism.

Using techniques gleaned from modern advertising, the U.S. Office of War Information injected anti-Japanese bloodlust and hysteria into the population. When the U.S. killed 672,000 Japanese through indiscriminate bombing, even Secretary of War Henry Stimson wondered why "there has never been a protest over... such extraordinarily heavy loss of life. There is something wrong with a country where no one questions that."

Tom Hanks and Steven Spielberg's Saving Private Ryan and Tom Brokaw's The Greatest Generation are cashing in on the revived interest in World War II. But time's up for the traffickers of cheap nostalgia. The media elite have sold us the myth about the U.S.'s noble role in the "Good War" for too long and the facade is beginning to crack.

In eight chapters, Zezima ably takes down eight myths about World War II, the war that has been used to justify all wars since.


* WW II was "good"
* WW II was inevitable
* The Allies fought to liberate the death camps
* The attack on Pearl Harbor was a surprise
* Only the Axis nations committed war crimes
* The atomic bombs dropped on Japan were necessary
* WW II was fought to end fascism
* The legacy of WW II is "good"

to read reviews of this book;
 link to www.amazon.com

Gringo, 06.Oct.2003 12:52


Did the book change your opinion of the war, or did it just re-affirm what you already believed? If it changed your opinion, I think I might find or buy a copy.

.... 06.Oct.2003 13:29

this thing here

just as many french, british and american corporations have done business with saddam hussein, and supplied arms to coutless other dictators.

in my opinion, this is a telling problem for capitalist business practice. many corporations and businesses either cannot distinguish, or refuse to distinguish, between clients. between worthy governments or evil dictators. between environemtnally healthy or environmentally destructive. this exposes what i would call the empty, valueless, psychopathic heart of capitalist business exchanges. it is a void of morality, incapable of distinguishing between cause and effect, good or bad. because it's all the same money to them. it's the all the same gain for their profit margins, whether it's made through doing good with good people or doing evil with evil people.

James... 06.Oct.2003 14:37


It changed my opinion. It opened my eyes to information I previously was ignorant of. I highly recommend it.

The power of Myth 07.Oct.2003 13:19

Bison Boy

It's good that someone is writing to inform people that the truth is more nuanced than the myths our society holds. I have not read the particular book referenced in the article, but I have read enough history of the period to know that the commonly held notions are certainly not complete.

However, Gringo Stars' assertion "The U.S. did not enter WWII to end the Holocaust, to make the world a safer place, or to stop fascism. The opposite is true." is also more simple than the reality. The US entry into the war did in fact enable the end of the Holocaust, albeit slowly. The US certainly did not enter the war to make the world a less-safe place for anybody but the axis powers. (And maybe Russia. :) And the US entry into the war had the effect of crippling the particular sort of fascism espoused by Hitler and Mussolini. Gringo Stars' assertion of the opposites is no more true than the original assertions, and possibly less true. (Not picking on you, GS, I'm making a point.)

Gringo Stars also includes a list of myths about WWII; by calling them myths, I presume that he means to imply that they are each completely false. The truth is more complicated. I'll address them individually, and not in order:

> * The Allies fought to liberate the death camps

The allies fought to crush Germany's ability to make war on the allies. In the process, they settled on a policy of demanding unconditional surrender of Germany. (This demand was chiefly put forth by the US and Britain to demonstrate their resolve to Stalin, so that he would not again make a separate peace with Germany. Recall that early on, Hitler and Stalin made a non-aggression pact, which was eventually broken when Germany invaded Russia. This was incredibly foolish of Hitler, and it led to Germany's defeat. But I digress.) The effect of unconditional surrender was that the allies were obliged to overrun all of Germany, including the death camps.

We can argue about the allies' intentions with regard to the Holocaust all week. It is more useful to speculate about the military possibilities, or lack thereof, of doing anything about the camps earlier than they did. Given how hard-fought things were on the western front, it seems to me that the allies were doing their level best to overrun Germany as soon as possible, and also that any attempt to strike deep into the line to liberate a camp would be doomed to disaster. The few attempts I know of to liberate POW camps ahead of the line generally did end badly, for instance. (Opinions on this subject vary, this one is mine.)

But the fact is that, eventually, the allies did liberate the camps. And when the US army found the camps, they did exactly the right thing: they documented it for the whole world to see.

So yes, it's a myth that the allies fought to liberate the death camps. But they did, in fact, liberate the death camps by fighting. The truth is more subtle than the myth.

> * The attack on Pearl Harbor was a surprise

Debatable. It appears that, in 20/20 hindsight, there was enough warning to have predicted the raid. Indeed, some did predict its form, if not its exact date, but those people weren't in charge. In my judgement, it was a more of a screwup than a conspiracy. At this point, there is no way to know for certain, and there probably never will be. All of the important players are dead.

> * Only the Axis nations committed war crimes

Well, you know, the allies held the trials. So naturally there were few allies *convicted* of war crimes. But yes, all sides committed atrocities. Sad, but true.

We can take some comfort that, strategic air forces aside, the US military in Europe was almost certainly the best-behaved major force in the war. (The Pacific was much more savage.) As for the strategic bombing, it was certainly horrible. You'll just have to read up on the situation as they saw it, and decide for yourself if the bombing campaign was justified or criminal. The moral truth here is very complicated indeed.

> * The atomic bombs dropped on Japan were necessary

See above, on strategic bombing. The only thing we can really say for sure is that the atomic bombing of Japan was expedient. It might have been necessary to break the will of the Japanese government and people. It might have cost less casualties overall (on both sides) than forcing unconditional surrender by conventional means. The bombs might have been dropped simply to scare the Russians. There's really no way to know, although many speculate. All we can do is mourn the dead, and work to keep it from happening again.

> * WW II was fought to end fascism
> * WW II was inevitable

There is no question, historically speaking, that Germany and Japan were aggressively expansionist before the allies' entry into WWII. The German national socialist party was pretty much indistinguishable from fascism. (The Japanese were more traditional imperialists under military control.) We can reliably say that the allied governments fought in WWII out of a sense of self-preservation, which in restrospect still looks like a reasonable position to take. In that sense, I think it is fair to say that the war really was inevitable, as the axis showed little sign of becoming content with their gains, and the fear of domination was quite real.

In launching this fight, the allies were fighting against Germany and Italy, both fascist states. So in a practical sense, we were fighting against fascism... but the point was to preserve self-determination in the face of aggressively expanding powers. Again, a complicated truth buried in the myth.

> * WW II was "good"
> * The legacy of WW II is "good"

Good. It's a difficult word in this context; it encompasses so much. There is too much reality to pack into so few words.

Is the world a good place now? Kinda. Not really. Is it a better place than it would have been, had the US not entered WWII on the side of the allies? Probably. Would we be better off with all of Eurasia under some combination of the Third Reich and Imperial Japan, even if the US were still free? Probably not. So perhaps the war's legacy is better than the probable alternative, and is therefore somewhat good.

(On the other hand, perhaps the world would be a better place had we followed Patton's advice, and marched straight on to Moscow after Germany, crushing the communists and avoiding the nuclear arms race. Would that have been a better legacy? Beats me.)

Does that mean the war itself was good? Given that tens of millions died during it, I think we can say no. But the war had started long before the US got involved; our choice as a nation was limited to how we would respond to the fact of war in Eurasia. Perhaps that absolves us of some moral responsibility, perhaps not.

Again, the truth is too subtle and nuanced to be captured in myth. That doesn't mean the myth is not partly true, nor does it mean the myth is completely false. It means that myths are inadequate to tell us all that we should know of history, for myths are simply a reasonable substitute for complex truth.

If the myth is unsatisfactory, then be wary of any other simple truths presented to counter them; they are probably myths as well. The only way to know is to study the known facts, and judge for yourself.

Glue Binding Fascists is Jesus 07.Oct.2003 15:23

Yehoshua Gloger yoesh@hotmail.com

All Western- world fascists are rooted in the 2,00-year-old culture of worshipping a guy who demanded absolute worship of his being -- Jesus. Proof of this is the absence of any negative biography of the historical jesus. This censorship was copied by Hitler (no German library from 1934-1944 would hold any book criticizing Hitler) and copied by Stalin (no Soviet library from 1924-50 would have a book criticizing Stalin). Now, in this land of freedom, the one publishing company (Gloger Family Books) dedicated to distributing negative biographies of Jesus is being repressed. Religious journals refuse to take ads for its books or even mention them, as if they don't exist. Gloger Family Books reprints the masterful 19th century classic, "Strauss' Life of Jesus from George Eliot" and the modern classic, "Jesus Mishegahs: The Jewish Xmas Book," both of which expose the dark side of jesus. Both these books are being surpressed. Only about 50 libraries throughout the USA dared to buy copies, and most of these are hidden only for research by a select few. Only one bookstore has the courage to sell these two books, the independent Powell' Book Store of Portland, Oregon. See for yourself: Try and find locally a copy of JESUS MISHEGAHS: THE JEWISH XMAS BOOK, which was published 12 years ago and has quietly been passed around and talked about in whispers ever since. When my grandfather wrote this classic, he knew he was putting his faamily at risk, but decided the pursuit of justice and truth overrides personal fears.

Non-sequitur 07.Oct.2003 15:50

Bison Boy

While amusing, Yehoshua Gloger's post has absolutely nothing to do with the "fascist fraternity". It's true, fascists are rooted in the western tradition, but so are socialists, monarchists, anarchists, republicans, communists, and democrats. None of them have anything to do with Jesus either. It's a meaningless statement; or at any rate a statement with so obvious a meaning as to be worthless.

Except, of course, as an excuse to shill for grampa Gloger's book: "When my grandfather wrote this classic, he knew he was putting his [family] at risk, but decided the pursuit of justice and truth overrides personal fears."

It may be that the publishing world has decided to supress this book for one reason or another. Tragic. But does the poster seriously expect us to consider this an insurmountable obstacle to getting the information out, when he tells us this on the *Internet*? For heaven's sake (so to speak) if it's that all-fired important, the poster should publish it online.

Don't buy their propaganda, Bison Boy... 08.Oct.2003 21:00


I see you have bitten for the propaganda hook, line and sinker. The myths were referring to the intentions of the policy-makers. Their intentions were not at all to liberate death camps or to end fascism. The war was fought to make fascism more powerful by eliminating OTHEr fascists that opposed the US fascists, and the death camps were known and even reported on with little fanfare yet no outcry was raised in the US.

The US bombed Japan AFTER Japan had made it known that they were to formally surrender. The bombs were dropped both to test their efficacy and primarily as a warning/threat of force to the Russians, since we would share the world with them for some time.

The reason the US waited so long to enter WWII was to deplete Russia's power and troops, and for our financial leeaders to trade with both sides for as long as possible before they had to trade with the enemy covertly instead of openly.

Pearl Harbor was known by the President at the time, and he has even admitted this. I am baffled that so few people know this. Hawaiian lookout towers were ordered to stand down and an aircraft carrier and 2 battleships moved out from Pearl Harbor just a half hour before the attack. FDR realised that a direct attack was the only way to gain public support for a war, since WWI was so devastating to the American public.

The Axis committed many war crimes, including systematically starving to death over 1 million prisoners of war after the war had ended. The US firebombed Tokyo and Dresden and bombed and attacked civilians regularly, and killed far more civilians than combatants.

WWII remains an example of a "good war" that is used to justify modern wars. It's false legacy as "positive" must be publicised as the myth that it is, in order to avoid war in general.

Bison Boy, I understand that you are dealing with facts as you now know them, but I must respectfully point out that you are regurgitationg many state-propagated lies concerning WWII. The sad thing is; if this was 1940, you would also have regurgitated a huge dose of Japanese-hatred. WWII was a huge success story for the practice of propaganda. Yet today, propaganda is even more powerful. It is useful to, with the aid of hindsight and distance, examine how wrong the public was and how they got that way, because it can help us now.

oops 08.Oct.2003 23:18


"The Axis committed many war crimes, including systematically starving to death over 1 million prisoners of war after the war had ended."

I meant ALLIES, not Axis

The persistence of myth 09.Oct.2003 18:28

Bison Boy

Gringo Stars writes: "I see you have bitten for the propaganda hook, line and sinker."

I'll admit to nibbling at the bait. :) But the rest of the tackle remains in the water, where I regard it with wary interest.

"The myths were referring to the intentions of the policy-makers. Their intentions were not at all to liberate death camps or to end fascism. ..."

Right up to here, GS, you're correct. The myths do imply that the allies' intentions were to liberate the death camps and end fascism. Where you go astray is when you assert not only that these are not true, but that the opposite is true. The truth is much more complicated and nuanced than either the myths or their opposites.

You go on to assert "The war was fought to make fascism more powerful by eliminating OTHEr fascists that opposed the US fascists..."

This is misleading at best. It is just as mythic as the original myth you're trying to debunk, and no more helpful to a true understanding of history.

The United States is and was a place of some diversity of opinion. I have no doubt that some citizens, and even some people in government, wanted exactly this. Lindbergh, Ford, and others clearly admired Hitler's Germany. (Just as others wanted the US to liberate the death camps.)

But extending that claim to the government as a whole, the nation as a whole, or the entire allied side is not justified by the facts. FDR liked central authority, it seems, but one can hardly say he was a belligerent nationalist or a total despot. And surely Stalin was not a fascist, even though in many ways he was worse than Hitler.

If it was the case that the allied powers were expressly fascist, it stands to reason that the victorious allied powers would have continued to consolidate their states as centers of fascism, and become authoritarian. That does not appear to have happened in the US and Britain. Now, in some ways one can argue that in some ways we became more fascist, in the sense of increased corporate dominance over the state. But it has not happened to such a degree as to justify the use of the word "fascist" to describe the postwar (or current) state of affairs in the allied powers.

Your mileage may vary, of course, but while I'll freely acknowledge corporate near-dominance over public affairs in the US, we fall far short of fascism in most other areas of its definition. (For which I am profoundly grateful.)

The rebuttal also includes several assertions, purported to be facts, that surely need some documentation to support them.

* "The US bombed Japan AFTER Japan had made it known that they were to formally surrender."

It is known that Emperor Hirohito himself wanted a negotiated end to the war after the fall of Okinawa. ( http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWhirohito.htm) However, he was unable to enforce this outlook on his ministers, who continued the war. (Why this was so, I do not know; you'd think a divine enperor could have managed it. [shrug] ) Nor is it clear to me that the allies knew his intent at the time. I'm willing to be convinced that the Japanese government made an unconditional surrender offer earlier, meeting the allied demand. Show me some evidence that this is the case.

* "Pearl Harbor was known by the President at the time, and he has even admitted this. I am baffled that so few people know this. Hawaiian lookout towers were ordered to stand down and an aircraft carrier and 2 battleships moved out from Pearl Harbor just a half hour before the attack."

It's possible that FDR knew. Many have speculated that he did, with no certain results. If reliable evidence to that fact is available, I have never seen it. Again, let's see the evidence in support of this claim.

As for the carriers, the assertion is documented to be false. The official account ( link to www.history.navy.mil reports Hornet as being in Norfolk, VA. that day.) All other US carriers were in the Atlantic fleet. These facts should be easy to verify from port records, since naturally I assume you would not trust official accounts. But you're the one rocking the boat here, so I'll leave the burden of proof to you.

* "The [allies] committed many war crimes, including systematically starving to death over 1 million prisoners of war after the war had ended."

Where? Who? If you're talking about the Russians (well, Soviets) starving Germans, then sure, I believe that. Few Germans survived Russian POW camps. But the US or Britain? Certainly not millions, although possibly thousands. (Even thousands seems unlikely.) If you want to tar all the allies with one brush, show me your evidence against the US or Britain.

As for other unspecified war crimes, see my earlier post. It is known that all sides committed atrocities, although there was a marked difference in scale and form among them.

* "The US firebombed Tokyo and Dresden and bombed and attacked civilians regularly, and killed far more civilians than combatants."

Yup, we sure did. Those firebombings were arguably worse than the atomic bombs, too. Don't forget that we also levelled pretty much every other city in Germany and Japan. I wouldn't call that a hidden truth; I presumed it was widely known. I'm not proud that the US did that, but the fact remains that we did. (The moral truths here are especially uncertain; the justification or criminality of strategic bombing is a whole debate of its own.)

* "WWII remains an example of a 'good war' that is used to justify modern wars. It's false legacy as 'positive' must be publicised as the myth that it is, in order to avoid war in general."

I don't disagree with that at all. I agree that the mythic status of WWII is not helpful to a true understanding of history. What I object to, in your statements, is your replacement of one set of myths with another set of myths that seems even less representative of the truth. You fight one kind of propaganda with another. That's not necessarily an improvement.

"I understand that you are dealing with facts as you now know them, but I must respectfully point out that you are regurgitationg many state-propagated lies concerning WWII."

Just because they are state-propagated doesn't make them lies. :) I'm certainly willing to be proven wrong. I don't see that you have offered any such proof, however. Besides, any careful reader will note that I am not, in fact, regurgitating the myths you invoke without criticism. On the contrary, I work to point out that they are only partly true, instead of wholly true or false. If this difference is too subtle for you, then I suggest you avoid history as a field of study.

"The sad thing is; if this was 1940, you would also have regurgitated a huge dose of Japanese-hatred."

Yeah, probably. And by the same logic (or lack thereof) most likely you would have, too. Unless you are Japanese, of course, then you would have hated Americans. On the other hand, in the 1940's you or I might have been conscientious objectors, or starving Russian peasants, or Japanese soldiers at Nanking, or murdered Jews, or Hitler Youth. It's pure speculation, and not especially relevant to the issue at hand.

"It is useful to, with the aid of hindsight and distance, examine how wrong the public was and how they got that way, because it can help us now."

It is indeed useful to examine history. I think we should all undertake it to the best of our ability. That's why I object to the oversimplifications in your assertion of opposites: I expect better.

Your assertion does not advance the study of history, nor does it debunk propaganda... it just fosters new myths. The truth is complicated.

*Jesus Mishegahs* not relevant to Fascist evil, says Bison Boy 11.Nov.2003 15:09

Yehoshua Gloger yoesh@hotmail.com

Bison Boy suggested that my motivation was to plug grandpa's book about Jesus, JESUS MISHEGAHS: THE JEWISH XMAS BOOK by Yoesh (the Priest) GLOGER. I congratulate him on the insight -- partially. Partially, because it wasn't to have you shell out $, for no Gloger needs the little money that comes from book selling. Read it, yes. Read it free in the library,for a bunch of libraries own the book and through them and the interlibrary loan system, every public library can borrow it for a few weeks. ........ This does relate to the Fascist subject at hand, I believe, because a population only follows a dictator if it is conditioned to the idea of following a leade blindly (with faith). Faith is what lets people abandon reason in deciding to follow a leader who is and will be a fascist tyrant. I beleive that the civilized Westerners (Germans et al) who went for this come from long lines of faith Beleivers; of Jesus believers. Jesus is/was the Western role- model of a leader to follow through faith and not reason; without question; just trust him. ... .... ... And Bison Boy overestimated the power of the internet when he suggested grandpa's book would be a best-seller if full of original truth by the nature of the internet. I like Bison Boy and wish him well. He or she has his/her heart in the right place. But the medium only reflects its users, who are Westerners, brought up on the Jesus myth so that even today, with its educated computer-literate people, the truth is that TRASHING JESUS IS THE LAST TABOO still strong even after incest lost the title. .. .. ... I hope Bison Boy is still around and will answer this, my honest thought. I value his/her criticisms. ... Best wishes to you all and hope you will make an effort to consider the possiblity that they are conditioned by jesus to follow a new tyrant the. Break that conditioning by considering that the historical jesus was a bad person, the lowest of the low, human trash, by reading the easy-to-read writing of grandpa. I can even give free copies of the abridged version (I have about 100) if asked to: Gloger, PO Box 6955, Portland OR 97228. I will mail it by USPS book rate, costing me about $1 postage each. It'll take about two weeks to get to you. . ....... Sincerely, Yehoshua Gloger

PO Box 6955, Portland OR 97228

Western Fascism inspired by Jesus 11.Nov.2003 15:41

Yehoshua Gloger yoesh@hotmail.com

Bison Boy was right, I was pushing grandpa's book. Bison Boy was wrong, I want you all to shellout $ for it. No Gloger needs the little money that comes from book-selling. ... I want you all to read it for it is the best, most comprehesive trashing of jesus to break the myth's hold on you that tells you it is OK to follow a leader though faith alone (not reason). Since about 50 USA libraries have *JESUS MISHEGAHS: THE JEWISH XMAS BOOK* by Yoesh (the Priest) Gloger, you can read it free at any public library because of the widespread inter-library loan system. ... ... Sincerely, Yehoshua Gloger

PO Box 6955, Portland OR 97228