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Bush Government Can be "Just as Mean as Saddam Hussein"

Very interesting arctile by UK citizen who was 'accidently' kidnapped and held for a month as a victim of the CIA. The UK citizen an ex-Iraqi declared that there was nothing they could do compared to Hussien. The USA say's that Hussein is a PUSSY compared to BUSH.
"Compared to Bush, Hussein is a Pussy"

A British businessman arrested as a suspected terrorist has told the Guardian that US agents threatened him with beatings and rape in an attempt to break him.
Wahab al-Rawi, 38, was denied a lawyer, held incommunicado for four weeks in Gambia, and repeatedly questioned by CIA agents before being released without charge. His account is the first from any Briton about their treatment by the US while held as a suspect in the two year "war on terror".

The account also challenges US denials of the use of torture or the threat of torture on terrorist suspects, thousands of whom have been detained and interrogated across the world.

The Guardian revealed in July that Mr Rawi's business partners, including his brother, Bisher, and Jamil al-Banna, who were arrested with him, have been incarcerated in the US camp at Guantanamo Bay without charge.

Speaking publicly for the first time, Mr Rawi, 38, said:

· CIA agents twice threatened him with torture if he did not cooperate;

· He was subjected to sleep deprivation, with lights permanently kept on in his cell;

· During his interrogation, material from British intelligence interviews with an alleged extremist detained in London were put to him.

Mr Rawi, born in Iraq but now a British citizen, had set up a business in Gambia and travelled there in October 2002. He was joined by his brother and the others on November 8. At the airport all four men were arrested by the Gambian national intelligence agency.

Mr Rawi says he demanded to see the British high commissioner. A CIA agent he knew as Lee responded: "Why do you keep asking for the high commissioner? The British asked us to arrest you."

Once in detention and left alone with two CIA agents, Mr Rawi says Mr Lee made a threat: "He said, 'you're under US protection or you'd be beaten up by the Gambians. You know how Africans are, you know what happens in these countries. We can let the Gambians at you'."

During interrogation, another US agent insinuated that he and his brother were gay because they were not married.

In the third week of detention, Mr Rawi says, the agents increased the pressure. They were transferred to a stricter regime in a house in Banjul, the capital, after being handcuffed and having hoods placed over their heads. The men's belts and shoes were taken, and each was kept in solitary confinement.

The first time the door to Mr Rawi's room opened, he saw a tall US agent wearing a balaclava.

"Believe me, it's intimidating, no matter how hard you are," said Mr Rawi.

In the new house, the toilet was a bucket kept in the room, there was no exercise, and a shower was allowed just once a week.

"For the shower, we were given long handcuffs and had to strip in front of a Gambian guard and the American with the balaclava," Mr Rawi said.

As well as the constant light in Mr Rawi's room, a noisy fan continuously whirred outside the door to stop the detainees talking to each other.

"One week after, I could still hear the whirring of the fan. They were trying sleep deprivation. I did not sleep for the first three days," he said.

Mr Rawi alleges that once the US agents again threatened him with a beating and also rape, after first playing a psychological game with him: "They knocked hard on my door, and shouted, 'We are coming in. Stand facing the wall with your hands above your head. Don't look back.'

"They came in and started laughing. Lee said: 'Did we scare you?' in a sarcastic voice, and then they started interrogating me.

"I said to them, they can't intimidate me, I lived through my father's experience when he was held and tortured by Saddam Hussein. I told them, in Iraq they don't threaten, they do things, they rape people, they torture.

"The little American said: 'We can be just as ruthless as Saddam Hussein' - he was trying very hard to scare me.

"They were threatening me with rape and assault."

Mr Rawi says that to him, the nature of the threat from the Americans was clear: "They were trying to threaten me into whatever state of mind they wanted me to be."

During interrogation, the agents tried to get Mr Rawi to admit his business trip was a cover for terrorism.

"They asked: 'What are you really here to do, attack US interests or put together a terrorism camp?'"

He was not impressed with the quality of the agents interviewing him. "I have seen with my own eyes snails that have more brains," said Mr Rawi.

One of the CIA agents even admitted a fondness for Bisher, according to Mr Rawi: "Lee said, 'I can't help liking him.'"

Since his release, Mr Rawi says he has had to battle his demons.

"My mother and sister have been hit very hard," he adds. "They are crying all the time and praying."

Mr Rawi's family fled to London from the Saddam regime in Iraq. "I have been loyal to Britain," he says; but of the CIA agents, he adds: "To me, they're no different to Saddam Hussein."

Mr Rawim, whose home is in London, is now in hiding in the north of England.

It is almost certain that the reason that he and the other men came under suspicion was the links that three of them have with the British-based Muslim cleric Abu Qatada.

He was arrested under anti-terrorism laws in London in October 2002, weeks before Mr Rawi and the others were held in Gambia.

Mr Rawi had previously been stopped at London City airport when leaving for Gambia on October 26 2002, and questioned about his relationship with Mr Qatada.

"They said: 'Would you like to work for us?' I said no. They said: 'There is good money in in for you'."

During his interrogation in Gambia, Mr Rawi says material from the now detained Mr Qatada's interviews in Britain was put to him - further evidence, he says, of collusion between Britain and the US.

"I saw no danger in knowing Abu Qatada. I know this person is incapable of organising anything.

"I thought, if I know that, the security services will know that."
web link? 04.Oct.2003 16:00

sadder but wiser

A web link source on this would be nice.

BS 04.Oct.2003 20:32

me

Poster: You say Bush is as "mean" as Hussein? Yeah right. Show me the mass graves of thousands, and the kiddie gulags ... show me how Bush or any of his men pick women off the street -- even brides at their weddings -- and rape and murder them for kicks ... show me how Bush or the head of the Olympic Committee tortures U.S. athletes who do not perform up in the Games to scratch as Hussein's son did when he headed the Iraqi Olympic Committee ...show me how we turned deadly chemical and biological weapons on thousands of innocents, killing them. How many kids has Bush thrown in jail for decades because their dads haven't joined the Republican Party as Saddam did to the kids of Iraq whose parents who refused to join the Baath Party. Did Bush kill 154 members of his OWN family? Hussein did. Where's our White Lion prison where prisoners are tormented and tortured before being executed. How many men has Bush thrown in a wood chipper -- head first if he is feeling merciful, feet first if he isn't. That you can make that comparison says volumes about your moral capacity -- which would seem to be limited at best.


Sadder: Here are some web links for you.

 http://in.news.yahoo.com/030625/43/25faj.html
 http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/si_online/news/2003/03/24/son_of_saddam/?cnn=yes
 http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/news/investigators/wabc_investigators_032003iraqtorture.html
 http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1048734742885_80/
 http://www.msnbc.com/news/899383.asp?0sl=-43
 http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20030415/COWENT15/Columnists/Idx

No diff between USA and Saddam's Iraq 04.Oct.2003 22:06

Mariposa

Or any other totalitarian dictatorship that rules with fear and violence.

Because, truth is, I no longer consider myself living in a free society. The 'government' is a big THEM and is not of, by or for me, one of the people.

You don't have to have soldiers rummaging through your house to define the moment when a society ceases to be free. The THREAT that I could simply SAY the wrong thing (in their sick minds) or talk to the 'wrong' people (about even the weather) is proximate cause in this country for the guys with guns to harass me and my family.

And that tells me: I ain't living in the free world any longer.

Yeah, bush is worse than saddam simply because he turned the very best system into a nightmare.

Lighten up 04.Oct.2003 22:58

Not you

Mariposa: If you feel that paranoid, I suggest you get some medication because there is nobody threatening to do to you what Hussein did to his people. Nothing even close. You are free to yell and scream and burn flags in Pioneer Square to protest Bush as many have. The very fact of this message board's continued existence is itself proof that this is not a totalitarian dictatorship. Do you even know what those two words mean?
Totalitarian means of or relating to centralized control by an autocratic leader or hierarchy
Dicatorship means a form of government in which absolute power is concentrated in a dictator or a small clique .

I noticed that you didn't provide any data to back up your "feelings". Pretty clever to substitute emotionalism with facts. The thing is, those who are swayed by emotions will be the only ones convinced by what you wrote.

I'm not being sarcastic, but the ignorance you express is astounding. You have no sense of proportion, or of history or empathy for the plight of other people. I mean, if I were an Iraqi, or a Sudanese, or Afghani woman, I would be terribly insulted by you comparing your own "feelings" of "discomfort" with their actual subjugation/oppression/ongoing terrorization. You're statement is that of a child who is angry with their mom or dad and so declares that they are the worst parents in the world and she hates them.
You don't like the leadership in this country so it has to be worse than any other in the world. Like I said, if you feel that bad get some meds. Maybe stay away from the paranoid left for a week or three. Go out in the country and breathe. You need perspective. Bad.

'Not you' is Saddam's Buddy. 05.Oct.2003 00:58

save your screed for the prisoners in Guantanamo

Contrary to the steady diet of Saddam Hussein--Bogeyman being spewed by COINTELPRO Trolls like 'me' and 'Not you', Hussein has had intimate connections to the USA and American intelligence dating back to the late 1950s. Indeed, Hussein's connections to the USA are much like that of another American spawn and collaborater, USAma Bin Laden, who was created by and probably continues working for the CIA to this very day. The picture below of an American flag being draped over the face of Saddam's statue is revealing, but not in the sense that most Americans understand. Like USAma Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein and his regime was made in America.
------------------------------------------------------------------

Exclusive: Saddam key in early CIA plot

By Richard Sale
UPI Intelligence Correspondent
From the International Desk
Published 4/10/2003 7:30 PM
 http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030410-070214-6557r

U.S. forces in Baghdad might now be searching high and low for Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein, but in the past Saddam was seen by U.S. intelligence services as a bulwark of anti-communism and they used him as their instrument for more than 40 years, according to former U.S. intelligence diplomats and intelligence officials.

United Press International has interviewed almost a dozen former U.S. diplomats, British scholars and former U.S. intelligence officials to piece together the following account. The CIA declined to comment on the report.

While many have thought that Saddam first became involved with U.S. intelligence agencies at the start of the September 1980 Iran-Iraq war, his first contacts with U.S. officials date back to 1959, when he was part of a CIA-authorized six-man squad tasked with assassinating then Iraqi Prime Minister Gen. Abd al-Karim Qasim.

In July 1958, Qasim had overthrown the Iraqi monarchy in what one former U.S. diplomat, who asked not to be identified, described as "a horrible orgy of bloodshed."

According to current and former U.S. officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity, Iraq was then regarded as a key buffer and strategic asset in the Cold War with the Soviet Union. For example, in the mid-1950s, Iraq was quick to join the anti-Soviet Baghdad Pact which was to defend the region and whose members included Turkey, Britain, Iran and Pakistan.

Little attention was paid to Qasim's bloody and conspiratorial regime until his sudden decision to withdraw from the pact in 1959, an act that "freaked everybody out" according to a former senior U.S. State Department official.

Washington watched in marked dismay as Qasim began to buy arms from the Soviet Union and put his own domestic communists into ministry positions of "real power," according to this official. The domestic instability of the country prompted CIA Director Allan Dulles to say publicly that Iraq was "the most dangerous spot in the world."

In the mid-1980s, Miles Copeland, a veteran CIA operative, told UPI the CIA had enjoyed "close ties" with Qasim's ruling Baath Party, just as it had close connections with the intelligence service of Egyptian leader Gamel Abd Nassar. In a recent public statement, Roger Morris, a former National Security Council staffer in the 1970s, confirmed this claim, saying that the CIA had chosen the authoritarian and anti-communist Baath Party "as its instrument."

According to another former senior State Department official, Saddam, while only in his early 20s, became a part of a U.S. plot to get rid of Qasim. According to this source, Saddam was installed in an apartment in Baghdad on al-Rashid Street directly opposite Qasim's office in Iraq's Ministry of Defense, to observe Qasim's movements.

Adel Darwish, Middle East expert and author of "Unholy Babylon," said the move was done "with full knowledge of the CIA," and that Saddam's CIA handler was an Iraqi dentist working for CIA and Egyptian intelligence. U.S. officials separately confirmed Darwish's account.

Darwish said that Saddam's paymaster was Capt. Abdel Maquid Farid, the assistant military attachîRt the Egyptian Embassy who paid for the apartment from his own personal account. Three former senior U.S. officials have confirmed that this is accurate.

The assassination was set for Oct. 7, 1959, but it was completely botched. Accounts differ. One former CIA official said that the 22-year-old Saddam lost his nerve and began firing too soon, killing Qasim's driver and only wounding Qasim in the shoulder and arm. Darwish told UPI that one of the assassins had bullets that did not fit his gun and that another had a hand grenade that got stuck in the lining of his coat.

"It bordered on farce," a former senior U.S. intelligence official said. But Qasim, hiding on the floor of his car, escaped death, and Saddam, whose calf had been grazed by a fellow would-be assassin, escaped to Tikrit, thanks to CIA and Egyptian intelligence agents, several U.S. government officials said.

Saddam then crossed into Syria and was transferred by Egyptian intelligence agents to Beirut, according to Darwish and former senior CIA officials. While Saddam was in Beirut, the CIA paid for Saddam's apartment and put him through a brief training course, former CIA officials said. The agency then helped him get to Cairo, they said.

One former U.S. government official, who knew Saddam at the time, said that even then Saddam "was known as having no class. He was a thug -- a cutthroat."

In Cairo, Saddam was installed in an apartment in the upper class neighborhood of Dukki and spent his time playing dominos in the Indiana CafôUwatched over by CIA and Egyptian intelligence operatives, according to Darwish and former U.S. intelligence officials.

One former senior U.S. government official said: "In Cairo, I often went to Groppie CafîRt Emad Eldine Pasha Street, which was very posh, very upper class. Saddam would not have fit in there. The Indiana was your basic dive."

But during this time Saddam was making frequent visits to the American Embassy where CIA specialists such as Miles Copeland and CIA station chief Jim Eichelberger were in residence and knew Saddam, former U.S. intelligence officials said.

Saddam's U.S. handlers even pushed Saddam to get his Egyptian handlers to raise his monthly allowance, a gesture not appreciated by Egyptian officials since they knew of Saddam's American connection, according to Darwish. His assertion was confirmed by former U.S. diplomat in Egypt at the time.

In February 1963 Qasim was killed in a Baath Party coup. Morris claimed recently that the CIA was behind the coup, which was sanctioned by President John F. Kennedy, but a former very senior CIA official strongly denied this.

"We were absolutely stunned. We had guys running around asking what the hell had happened," this official said.

But the agency quickly moved into action. Noting that the Baath Party was hunting down Iraq's communist, the CIA provided the submachine gun-toting Iraqi National Guardsmen with lists of suspected communists who were then jailed, interrogated, and summarily gunned down, according to former U.S. intelligence officials with intimate knowledge of the executions.

Many suspected communists were killed outright, these sources said. Darwish told UPI that the mass killings, presided over by Saddam, took place at Qasr al-Nehayat, literally, the Palace of the End.

A former senior U.S. State Department official told UPI: "We were frankly glad to be rid of them. You ask that they get a fair trial? You have to get kidding. This was serious business."

A former senior CIA official said: "It was a bit like the mysterious killings of Iran's communists just after Ayatollah Khomeini came to power in 1979. All 4,000 of his communists suddenly got killed."

British scholar Con Coughlin, author of "Saddam: King of Terror," quotes Jim Critchfield, then a senior Middle East agency official, as saying the killing of Qasim and the communists was regarded "as a great victory." A former long-time covert U.S. intelligence operative and friend of Critchfield said: "Jim was an old Middle East hand. He wasn't sorry to see the communists go at all. Hey, we were playing for keeps."

Saddam, in the meantime, became head of al-Jihaz a-Khas, the secret intelligence apparatus of the Baath Party.

The CIA/Defense Intelligence Agency relation with Saddam intensified after the start of the Iran-Iraq war in September of 1980. During the war, the CIA regularly sent a team to Saddam to deliver battlefield intelligence obtained from Saudi AWACS surveillance aircraft to aid the effectiveness of Iraq's armed forces, according to a former DIA official, part of a U.S. interagency intelligence group.

This former official said that he personally had signed off on a document that shared U.S. satellite intelligence with both Iraq and Iran in an attempt to produce a military stalemate. "When I signed it, I thought I was losing my mind," the former official told UPI.

A former CIA official said that Saddam had assigned a top team of three senior officers from the Estikhbarat, Iraq's military intelligence, to meet with the Americans.

According to Darwish, the CIA and DIA provided military assistance to Saddam's ferocious February 1988 assault on Iranian positions in the al-Fao peninsula by blinding Iranian radars for three days.

The Saddam-U.S. intelligence alliance of convenience came to an end at 2 a.m. Aug. 2, 1990, when 100,000 Iraqi troops, backed by 300 tanks, invaded its neighbor, Kuwait. America's one-time ally had become its bitterest enemy.
=========================================

March 14, 2003
 http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/14/opinion/14MORR.html?th

A Tyrant 40 Years in the Making

By ROGER MORRIS

SEATTLE -- On the brink of war, both supporters and critics of United States policy on Iraq agree on the origins, at least, of the haunted relations that have brought us to this pass: America's dealings with Saddam Hussein, justifiable or not, began some two decades ago with its shadowy, expedient support of his regime in the Iraq-Iran war of the 1980's.

Both sides are mistaken. Washington's policy traces an even longer, more shrouded and fateful history. Forty years ago, the Central Intelligence Agency, under President John F. Kennedy, conducted its own regime change in Baghdad, carried out in collaboration with Saddam Hussein.

The Iraqi leader seen as a grave threat in 1963 was Abdel Karim Kassem, a general who five years earlier had deposed the Western-allied Iraqi monarchy. Washington's role in the coup went unreported at the time and has been little noted since. America's anti-Kassem intrigue has been widely substantiated, however, in disclosures by the Senate Committee on Intelligence and in the work of journalists and historians like David Wise, an authority on the C.I.A.

From 1958 to 1960, despite Kassem's harsh repression, the Eisenhower administration abided him as a counter to Washington's Arab nemesis of the era, Gamal Abdel Nasser of Egypt -- much as Ronald Reagan and George H. W. Bush would aid Saddam Hussein in the 1980's against the common foe of Iran. By 1961, the Kassem regime had grown more assertive. Seeking new arms rivaling Israel's arsenal, threatening Western oil interests, resuming his country's old quarrel with Kuwait, talking openly of challenging the dominance of America in the Middle East -- all steps Saddam Hussein was to repeat in some form -- Kassem was regarded by Washington as a dangerous leader who must be removed.

In 1963 Britain and Israel backed American intervention in Iraq, while other United States allies -- chiefly France and Germany -- resisted. But without significant opposition within the government, Kennedy, like President Bush today, pressed on. In Cairo, Damascus, Tehran and Baghdad, American agents marshaled opponents of the Iraqi regime. Washington set up a base of operations in Kuwait, intercepting Iraqi communications and radioing orders to rebels. The United States armed Kurdish insurgents. The C.I.A.'s "Health Alteration Committee," as it was tactfully called, sent Kassem a monogrammed, poisoned handkerchief, though the potentially lethal gift either failed to work or never reached its victim.

Then, on Feb. 8, 1963, the conspirators staged a coup in Baghdad. For a time the government held out, but eventually Kassem gave up, and after a swift trial was shot; his body was later shown on Baghdad television. Washington immediately befriended the successor regime. "Almost certainly a gain for our side," Robert Komer, a National Security Council aide, wrote to Kennedy the day of the takeover.

As its instrument the C.I.A. had chosen the authoritarian and anti-Communist Baath Party, in 1963 still a relatively small political faction influential in the Iraqi Army. According to the former Baathist leader Hani Fkaiki, among party members colluding with the C.I.A. in 1962 and 1963 was Saddam Hussein, then a 25-year-old who had fled to Cairo after taking part in a failed assassination of Kassem in 1958.

According to Western scholars, as well as Iraqi refugees and a British human rights organization, the 1963 coup was accompanied by a bloodbath. Using lists of suspected Communists and other leftists provided by the C.I.A., the Baathists systematically murdered untold numbers of Iraq's educated elite -- killings in which Saddam Hussein himself is said to have participated. No one knows the exact toll, but accounts agree that the victims included hundreds of doctors, teachers, technicians, lawyers and other professionals as well as military and political figures.

The United States also sent arms to the new regime, weapons later used against the same Kurdish insurgents the United States had backed against Kassem and then abandoned. Soon, Western corporations like Mobil, Bechtel and British Petroleum were doing business with Baghdad -- for American firms, their first major involvement in Iraq.

But it wasn't long before there was infighting among Iraq's new rulers. In 1968, after yet another coup, the Baathist general Ahmed Hassan al-Bakr seized control, bringing to the threshold of power his kinsman, Saddam Hussein. Again, this coup, amid more factional violence, came with C.I.A. backing. Serving on the staff of the National Security Council under Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon in the late 1960's, I often heard C.I.A. officers -- including Archibald Roosevelt, grandson of Theodore Roosevelt and a ranking C.I.A. official for the Near East and Africa at the time -- speak openly about their close relations with the Iraqi Baathists.

This history is known to many in the Middle East and Europe, though few Americans are acquainted with it, much less understand it. Yet these interventions help explain why United States policy is viewed with some cynicism abroad. George W. Bush is not the first American president to seek regime change in Iraq. Mr. Bush and his advisers are following a familiar pattern.

The Kassem episode raises questions about the war at hand. In the last half century, regime change in Iraq has been accompanied by bloody reprisals. How fierce, then, may be the resistance of hundreds of officers, scientists and others identified with Saddam Hussein's long rule? Why should they believe America and its latest Iraqi clients will act more wisely, or less vengefully, now than in the past?

If a new war in Iraq seems fraught with danger and uncertainty, just wait for the peace.

Roger Morris, author of "Richard Milhous Nixon: The Rise of an American Politician," is completing a book about United States covert policy in Central and South Asia.
===========

SEE ALSO:

Rumsfeld's Old Flame
by Jim Vallette
 http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/7577
----------------------------

Secret Bechtel Documents Reveal:
Yes, It Is About Oil
By DAVID LINDORFF
 http://www.counterpunch.org/lindorff04092003.html
----------------------------

The Secret Behind the Sanctions
How the U.S. Intentionally Destroyed Iraq's Water Supply
 http://www.progressive.org/0801issue/nagy0901.html
----------------------------

Saddam Hussein--The Making of a Dictator [article + video]
 http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=306061&group=webcast

You are hilarious! 05.Oct.2003 02:27

me/not you

Sweetie, you only wish I were COINTELPRO. Truth is, I have nothing to do with the government. I just remember back when I thought/felt as many of you do.

Saddam's link to the US has been public knowledge for a long time. If anything, that would seem to be an even more compelling reason for us to intervene in Iraq.

Also, OBL is not/was never on the CIA payroll. The US trained the Mujahideen during their war with the Soviet Union in the 1980s. OBL's family is among the richest in the world. He doesn't need CIA money.

wait a minute 05.Oct.2003 03:07

confused

I thought the official story was that Osama Bin Laden was disowned by his family and received no support from them. Afterall, if that's not the case and he was getting money from his family, and his family had numerous lucrative business associations with the Bush family (like Salem Bin Laden's partnership with GW in Arbusto), well, then I'm sure you can see where this is going. It sounds like someone needs to check back in with Faux news since I'm sure you don't mean to be implying that Osama Bin Laden was financed by the Bush family.

"Throughout the world ... its agents, client states and satellites are on the defensive — on the moral defensive, the intellectual defensive, and the political and economic defensive. Freedom movements arise and assert themselves. They're doing so on almost every continent populated by man — in the hills of Afghanistan, in Angola, in Kampuchea, in Central America ... [They are] freedom fighters."

- Ronald Reagan

Oh yeah, I'm also confused because I seem to recall that the only mass graves found in Iraq were either the ones from Iraqis killed by the US, or those killed by Hussein with the support of the US (like during the Shiite uprising). Doesn't that mean Hussein's mass graves are also the mass graves of Bush I and II? Afterall, without the sudden cease-fire agreement with Hussein following the Gulf War the Shiites would have overthrown Hussein and taken control of the country. But since the US couldn't have that they backed Hussein to put down the uprising, leading to all the mass graves in southern Iraq.

But hey, why learn history and to think for ourselves when we can just have the corporate media tell us what to think. That must be pretty nice...

'me/not you'-- 05.Oct.2003 14:20

who's hilarious

"If anything, that would seem to be an even more compelling reason for us to intervene in Iraq."

--while we're on the topic,

what WAS the *urgent* reason that the U.S. pre-emptively, illegally invaded (and now militarily occupy) Iraq in the face of widespread international opposition, anyway?

please, do TELL us the reason, 'me/not you' . . .

Caught in a world of fantasy 05.Oct.2003 14:20

Me

"I thought the official story was .... "

You thought wrong.

"Oh yeah, I'm also confused because .. "

Yes, you sure are confused.

it's not because they're nice guys 05.Oct.2003 14:59

the other me

Anyone who thinks that the reason that Bush Jr and crew are nicer than Saddam is because..., well, because they're just nicer guys, is truly a fool. Take a look at everything these guys are doing: the arrogance, absolute intolerance for dissent, the vendettas and lust for vengeance against anyone who crosses them, the Orwellian drive to lie and suppress the truth when it suits them. They may not be Saddam, this may not be North Korea or Iraq, but ask yourself, what President in American history has ever done more and tried harder to make this country look like a totalitarian regime a la the Korean Kims or Iraq's Saddam than these guys?

The only reason they haven't gotten everything they want already is because there are obvious institutional structures and countervailing forces in this country that impede them. Otherwise, people like these would be right at home as masters of a totalitarian regime. Everything in their records is perfectly consistent with it.

me/not you 05.Oct.2003 15:10

heimdallr

Hey, stupid fuck--

maybe your reading comprehension skills are just that bad, but did you not notice that the comparison between the CIA and the Hussein regime was made by a fucking IRAQI? I.e. much as you'd like to think that it's just hippie bullshit when someone alleges the use of torture by American government agencies, someone who actually lived under Hussein's government stated that he was treated to a similar experience by that bastion of freedom and wholesome goodness that you pay taxes to 'collect intelligence' around the world. You must have done really bad in English class, because it's day-one type shit when you're learnign about how to structure an argument that you make yourself look stupid when you respond to an argument you can't refute by making one up and acting like you're a genius for arguing about something no one else said (it's referred to as a 'straw man' fallacy, if you didn't know).

I think I hear your mother calling.

Name these records 05.Oct.2003 15:13

Me first

Really? Back it up. Enumerate exactly what Bush has done that is just as "mean" as Hussein.

'Me first'-- 05.Oct.2003 15:28

YOU first.

there's no difference between Bush and Hussein. The CIA Building in Langley, VA is named after George Herbert Walker Bush. See the above-posted UPI and New York Times stories for Saddam's CIA connections.

he was our installee and compatriot for decades.

The United States has--by it's own admission--mass murdered over 500,000 Iraqis in two Gulf Wars.
 http://www.progressive.org/0801issue/nagy0901.html
 http://www.iraqbodycount.net

And we're also very interested in Iraq's oil.
 http://www.rupe-india.org/34/contents.html
 http://www.fpif.org/iraq/occupation/0309oilrev.html

Rumsfeld's Old Flame
by Jim Vallette
 http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/7577
----------------------------

Secret Bechtel Documents Reveal:
Yes, It Is About Oil
By DAVID LINDORFF
 http://www.counterpunch.org/lindorff04092003.html
----------------------------

On August 2, 1990, Iraqi troops rolled across the border into neighboring Kuwait. The invasion prompted outrage and action from the White House where Iraq's President Saddam Hussein was reviled as a modern day Hitler, potentially more dangerous by virtue of his nuclear weapons ambitions. But Washington's view had not always been so negative....


Thanks for the name calling-- It was GREAT! 05.Oct.2003 15:46

Me too

Really, you guys are great for proving me correct when I say that you have no argument, no leg to stand on. Calling people vulgar names and insulting them is the refuge for those who have nothing to say.

So what if it was an Iraqi who wrote that piece? "Comical" Ali, an Iraqi, said that no American troops were in Bagdhad when you can see the tanks rolling in the background. I think he also said our bones would end up bleaching in the sun. tee hee.

Nobody has told me yet how being "our" guy somehow keeps the US from ever being able to do something about him.

willing ignorance is not a good thing 05.Oct.2003 16:00

historian

Nobody has told me yet how being "our" guy somehow keeps the US from ever being able to do something about him."

You've missed the point entirely. The point is every bad thing that Hussein has done can be laid at the doorstep of the United States. The United States government has supported Hussein throughout his 30 year career. Therefore the blame has to fall to the United States for without the Us, Hussein never would have had the chemical agents to gas the kurds, nor the support from Washington (as you'll recall Reagan and Bush I defended him because he was our ally when congress wanted to impose military sanctions against Hussein's government).

Now, very little of that falls to Bush Jr (whom most people realize he is merely a figurehead) , but rather his administration who were all in power when the US was busy selling Hussein weapons and supporting his regime in the 80's. I suspect that when people talk about Bush being as bad as Hussein what they are really comparing are the 2 governments which are working in very similar ways to suppress dissent, remove their citizen's rights, and steal from the people. Not that there aren't despicable crimes you can hang on GW such as executing mentally handicapped prisoners, removing the Texas public defender system, engaging in illegal invasions and occupations, causing the deaths of thousands of civilians, increasing domestic poverty, removing benefits for the elderly, the handicapped, and soldiers, removing environmental protections on water and air, and the list goes ever onward.

I don't think Hussein is a pussy 05.Oct.2003 22:16

.

Hussein is not a pussy compared to Bush. Both can laugh about killing people. It's on record! But Hussein is able to do the deed himself. We don't know that about Bush. We do know that Bush finds it very easy to make the order.

I'm a pussy 05.Oct.2003 23:16

Fluffy

Meow

Bush = Saddam 06.Oct.2003 07:00

Edwin Murcheson

Our mass graves dot the countryside in El Salvador, Columbia, Guatemala, Vietnam, Chile, Afghanistan, the American West...some of those Iraqi graves (the ones not full of Iranian soldiers killed by US chemical weapons or Iraqi soldiers killed by US jets kept flying by illegal shipments of parts to Iran during Reagan's administration) might just be full of the 1,000,000 Iraqi children who've died as a result of US-mandated sanctions. Don't call for a mass graves tote board...that's one you'll lose.

Our gulags can be found in every state, but chief among them is the unquestionably illegal 'Camp X-Ray' in Cuba, the very presence of which should spark your ire against the government, but which seems to give you a sick sense of pride, somehow...

Your silence is your assent. You're no longer just a rightie, you're a collaborator. Bush won't be in office forever. You ready to reap what you sow?

What? 06.Oct.2003 23:16

heimdallr

>"So what if it was an Iraqi who wrote that piece?"

That's your fucking response? Again, see my earlier information about straw man arguments. What does the reliability of Iraqi news reports about the military situation have to do with an Iraqi's opinion of the difference (or lack thereof) between the interrogation tactics of Saddam's security forces and the CIA? If you answered "not jack shit" you would be correct, but thank you for illustrating my point by repeating your earlier mistake. It's a 'straw man', as in something that's easily knocked down because it isn't actually fighting you--your ability to knock it over is meaningless.

Are you from Wisconsin? Because you really are a dumbass.