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Something Funny about Howard Dean Supporters?

There is something curious going on with some of the Dean supporters coming to Portland Indymedia. One has to wonder if all these Dean supporters are merely ordinary people who spontaneously post here, or they an example of a what is called an "Astroturf" operation--an organized political operation designed to create the image of a "grassroots" political movement.

Astroturf or real grassroots? You decide. In this day and image of media manipulation and Psyops- masquerading-as-News, you can never be sure.
Has anybody noticed something strange concerning all the Howard Dean supporters coming to this site? I bring this issue up based upon Antiwar.com's recent article concerning Howard Dean and the response that it generated, and the subsequent response of Dean people to similar articles involving Howard Dean posted here on Portland Indymedia.

If you go to the Antiwar.com letters page for August 30, 2003 you see numerous letters from Dean supporters attacking Justin Raimondo's article "The Dean Deception." In particular, note the letters from Paul J. Gessing, John Timothy, Geoff DeWan, and John Pierce. The letters can be read here:

 http://www.antiwar.com/letters/letters.html

What is peculiar is the fact that these same 4 people just so happen to post here on Portland Indymedia in response to articles (including Raimondo's "The Dean Deception") critical of Howard Dean. Not only have Paul J. Gessing, John Timothy, Geoff DeWan, and John Pierce posted in response to these Portland Indymedia articles, but their responses here are almost identical word-for-word to the letters they wrote to Antiwar.com!

Think about this. What are the chances of this happening? 4 people who (kinda) support Dean write letters to Antiwar.com, and then just happen to surf the internet and stumble across articles critical of Dean here at Portland Indymedia and spontaneously post messages almost verbatim identical to their original letters. This happens not once, but 4 times?! It seems this would be unlikely as any kind of "spontaneous" happening, bur rather be the result of an organized campaign.

In his letter to Antiwar.com, Paul J. Gessing writes:

I generally agree with your perspective, but I'd say you are a bit off base regarding Howard Dean. Dean is no peacenik, nor is he a noninterventionist. Any effort to portray him as such may be the result of desperation by antiwar folks like us to project our hopes onto him.

As much as the guy is not a libertarian, I still plan to vote for him because he is the only one speaking the truth about Iraq to Bush's face, and I think the guy has a far deeper understanding of the realities of both the electoral system that he needs to win and the situation overseas.

I, like you, am not sold on all of his politics, but the fact that he's willing to stand up and call Bush a liar while all the other Dems and R's are cowering in the corner or calling for more blood, is at least a start. At this point, I'd vote for most anyone but Bush - except Hillary Clinton.

~ Paul J. Gessing

 http://www.antiwar.com/letters/letters.html

NOW, in response to the Raimondo article critical of Dean subsequently posted here on Portland Indymedia, Paul J. Gessing (or someone using his name) posts:

A Bit off Base 30.Aug.2003 21:32
Paul J. Gessing

Dean is no peacenik, nor is he a noninterventionist. Any effort to portray him as such may be the result of desperation by antiwar folks like us to project our hopes onto him.

As much as the guy is not a libertarian, I still plan to vote for him because he is the only one speaking the truth about Iraq to Bush's face, and I think the guy has a far deeper understanding of the realities of both the electoral system that he needs to win and the situation overseas.

I, like you, am not sold on all of his politics, but the fact that he's willing to stand up and call Bush a liar while all the other Dems and R's are cowering in the corner or calling for more blood, is at least a start. At this point, I'd vote for most anyone but Bush - except Hillary Clinton.

 http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/08/270974.shtml

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In his letter to Antiwar.com, John Timothy writes:

Your views pro and con on Dean seem to be lot of verbal thinking both ways. Reality, not words, should inform our thinking. The reality of Bush is the record deficits and wars of aggression his administration brought to the USA and the world. The reality of Dean is his experience as a Governor with progressive policies, and his general lack of experience in foreign policy.

As president, Dean would almost certainly inherent Bush's Iraq mess. That is the sad reality forced on all of us by Bush and the neo-cons (Likud sympathizing warmongers in the defense policy board). The big real world problem we now face is how to repair Iraq, and keep the Bush mess from spiraling the whole Mideast into Chaos. Does anyone have any workable suggestions?

~ John Timothy, Bloomington, Indiana

 http://www.antiwar.com/letters/letters.html

NOW, in his posting to Raimondo's article subsequently posted here on Portland Indymedia, John Timothy (or someone using his name) posts:

Solutions please 30.Aug.2003 20:09
John Timothy

Your views pro and con on Dean seem to be lot of verbal thinking both ways. Reality, not words, should inform our thinking. The reality of Bush is the record deficits and wars of aggression his administration brought to the USA and the world. The reality of Dean is his experience as a Governor with progressive policies, and his general lack of experience in foreign policy.

As president, Dean would almost certainly inherent Bush's Iraq mess. That is the sad reality forced on all of us by Bush and the neo-cons (Likud sympathizing warmongers in the defense policy board). The big real world problem we now face is how to repair Iraq, and keep the Bush mess from spiraling the whole Mideast into Chaos. Does anyone have any workable suggestions?

 http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/08/270974.shtml
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In his letter to Antiwar.com, Geoff DeWan writes:

This is the kind of silliness that got us George Bush in the first place. After three years of having your face ground in the mud you still think that Ghandi is going to return and lead us all to the promised land. The point is Dean, or Gore, or even that scumbag Lieberman wouldn't have gotten us into this war in the first place. Remember that when Bush 43, Part II fulfills one of their favorite slogans - "Men want to go to Baghdad, REAL men want to go to Teheran."

Howard is not the candidate of your dreams. OK. But don't be so hard on yourself. The US is supertanker, it doesn't turn in one election, it's nudged along by degrees, we need someone nudging it in the right direction and with the willingness to let us be one part of the voice of his conscience.

~ Geoff DeWan, Los Angeles, California

 http://www.antiwar.com/letters/letters.html

NOW, in response to a piece by Jessica Woelke (which originally was a letter to Antiwar.com about Raimondo's article) posted here on Portland Indymedia, Mr. DeWan (or someone using his name) posts:

Better than Bush 31.Aug.2003 10:08
Geoff DeWan

This is the kind of silliness that got us George Bush in the first place. After three years of having your face ground in the mud you still think that Ghandi is going to return and lead us all to the promised land. The point is Dean, or Gore, or even that scumbag Lieberman wouldn't have gotten us into this war in the first place. Remember that when Bush 43, Part II fulfills one of their favorite slogans - "Men want to go to Baghdad, REAL men want to go to Teheran."

Howard is not the candidate of your dreams. OK. But don't be so hard on yourself. The US is supertanker, it doesn't turn in one election, it's nudged along by degrees, we need someone nudging it in the right direction and with the willingness to let us be one part of the voice of his conscience.

 http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/08/270998.shtml

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You can find a similar situation with John Pierce's letter and posts to Portland Indymedia, which I won't repost given their lengths.

Read John Pierce's letter to Antiwar.com here at:  http://www.antiwar.com/letters/letters.html

And compare to the post by "John Pierce" entitled "Will Iraq be the libertarian ideal? Hell no!" posted on 31.Aug.2003 19:06 here on Indymedia:
 http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/08/270998.shtml

Again, like the other 3 cases, there are very similar. I wonder if the Dean campaign is organizing these posts on Indymedia, or are they merely done as part of a informal network of Dean Internet supporters, or possibly just a lone Dean supporter plagiarizing these letters from Antiwar.com and reposting them here (kinda like Phony Tony Blair plagiarizing that student paper for his dossier on Iraq's "Weapons of Mass Destruction" ).

Ya never know.

Worst-case scenario 02.Sep.2003 08:15

The Unmentionables

Ok, your worst nightmare.

Dean is a puppet of Bush and Co. He will be president 2004, make many horrible mistakes regarding the future of this country and the situation in Iraq and the Middle-east and the Neocons will point shamefully at them denoting how these Democrats failed to protect America and let more attacks sneak through the cracks, whatnot. America will spiral even deeper into "patriotism", loss of civil liberties, and police-state-ism.

Bush will be reelected in 2008-2012 and you will witness something akin to the end of the world.

But hopefully that's all BS, so we can sit back, relax, and smile. :)

Howard Dean for President in 2004! He's the only one who can get Bush out of the white house! ....

yeah, right

Funny thing about Dean attackers 02.Sep.2003 10:33

Dan

Many of them spend as much if not more time attacking Dean than attacking BushCo. But oh yeah, I forgot, there's no difference between the two.

4 MORE YEARS OF BUSH IS AN OPTION? 02.Sep.2003 10:37

Gerry R rempelG@comcast.net

Be self-righteous in your ideological rants against Dean. If you see no difference between this man and the facsist regime now in power then you can't be reached with reason. There is an election coming up and somebody is going to take the reigns of power. Four more years of the Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Pearle and Wolfawitz cabal should just about finish off the Bill of Rights, gut whatever is left of environmental regulations, and continue the relentless dismantling of the middle class, unions, and on and on. Most probably past the point of no return, if we are not there already.

To see so called progressives fall all over themselves to laud the diatribes of Libertarian Justin Raimondo whose works include "Lost Legacy of the Conservative Movement" (with Introduction by Patrick J. Buchanan) is truly disturbing.

Keep up the self cannibalization you fucking moron.

By the way 02.Sep.2003 10:41

Dan

I'm NOT a Dean "supporter", I'm merely a liberal that is surprised and dismayed at the depth of Dean bashing I'm seeing.

Agree 02.Sep.2003 10:47

Dan

"If you see no difference between this man and the facsist regime now in power then you can't be reached with reason."

Amen.

Dean and McCain 02.Sep.2003 11:04

Ed Harley

This Howard Dean guy actually reminds me of John McCain... you know? Kinda seems like a slightly left-Democrat in some ways, then seems like a hawkish fool in others. I dunno...

No fan of elective politics 02.Sep.2003 11:25

.

I'm no fan of elective politics and only read these things to get a laugh. I'd suggest primaries be fought not at the ballot box with votes but in large cages with razorblades. That way the American public could at least get a laugh at the petty bickering and emotional rollercoaster which makes primary season look more like a middle school party. Don't worry, all the widdle dems will kiss and make up after Dean (or Lieberman...hahahaha) gets the nomination.

dean-bashing? 02.Sep.2003 11:37

another f*****g moron

It about sounds like factual statements of Dean's professed positions is going to get called "Dean bashing". I don't know why. I do think that in itself makes an unflattering statement about Dean. But that's the point, I don't think I can say anything more condemning of Dean than what he's said for himself, or I'd be cheering for him. But I'm not...

"If you see no difference between this man and the facsist regime now in power then you can't be reached with reason."

I don't see ENOUGH difference between Howard Dean and the Bush regime. Dean won't do enough to distinguish himself from Bush but stand against Bush's actions, then stand up for the mindsets that precipitated those actions, and the results of those actions. Why does that make me unreasonable?

Or why is it me, that this makes unreasonable? Personally I thought this was pretty unreasonable of Howard.

"Keep up the self cannibalization you fucking moron."

A preview of the compassionate Dean regime? But I can't think of any more obvious self-cannibalization that the horrible self-fufilling prophecy going on right now, that involves the "only Dean can win" myth.

Besides, I figure if Dean isn't a promising puppet of the far right, they'll be happy to synthesize & or and finance some Dean scandal before the election anyway. The Scaifes spent a lot of money on Bill Clinton's willie. So I about have to ask, who will be the "only" one who can win, in the event that Howie gets blown out of the water?
Apparently toppling the Bush regime is so paramount that nothing else matters, but is it so paramount that we have a Plan B just in case?

Many Dean supporters not seeing world or themselves clearly 02.Sep.2003 12:20

will only vote Democrat if Cynthia McKinney is nominated

The author of this post makes a good case and some astute observations about Dean and the methods of his supporters. There is certainly a sense of desperation in the air for those people who are fighting for AnyoneButBush. "Dean is electable," they say, without seeming to care about anything else. The concepts of "viral marketing" -- in which forums like indymedia are targetted by people posing as ordinary citizens -- are well established at this point, and practiced quite often (and not just by Dean's folks if that's what they're doing). Not only would I not be surprised to find out that Dean flacks are posting to the site masquerading as ordinary people, I would actually be more surprised to find out if they weren't. Dean flacks would be stupid not to utilize a site as effective at reaching people as indymedia is.

The denial of this theory without providing any meaningful counter-arguments points to the general blindness to the world that Dean supporters have. I see this blindness as a semi-conscious choice sourced from two places: 1) a desire for victory above all else for which I have no respect when so much more is at stake, and 2) a weak-willed capitulation to leaders to "save" us, when we should be working to save ourselves instead. Dean can't save us anymore than Bush can defeat us in any ultimate sense, "us" being the living people and creatures of this world. Dean supporters need to back up, get a bigger perspective, and see how much is at stake and how little he can do. Then they should put their energy into more productive projects.


Something even funnier about Dean Supporters... 02.Sep.2003 12:53

curious

Is the fact they never address any of the particular points I made in my original article. Do you dispute that it is highly curious that 4 people who wrote letters to Antiwar.com supporting Dean would just so happen to pop here and post on Portland Indymedia using almost the exact same language in their original letters? Assuming that Paul J. Gessing, John Timothy, Geoff DeWan, and John Pierce actually posted here on Portland Indymedia in the first place, which is a debatable proposition.

Notice now the Dean supporters or sympatherizers never address this point--perhaps because they know this case smells fishy and says something about these dishonest "Astroturf" tactics.

"Be self-righteous in your ideological rants against Dean. If you see no difference between this man and the facsist regime now in power then you can't be reached with reason."

Its obvious from your rabid response who is really acting "self-righteous" in his "ideologoical rants."

"Four more years of the Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Pearle and Wolfawitz cabal should just about finish off the Bill of Rights, gut whatever is left of environmental regulations, and continue the relentless dismantling of the middle class, unions, and on and on. Most probably past the point of no return, if we are not there already."

I thought this process was only a continuation of 8 years of New Democrat Bill Clinton. Remember "ending welfare as we know it"? Or the 1995 Anti-Terrorism bill?

"To see so called progressives fall all over themselves to laud the diatribes of Libertarian Justin Raimondo whose works include 'Lost Legacy of the Conservative Movement' (with Introduction by Patrick J. Buchanan) is truly disturbing."

I fundamentally disagree with Liberatarians in terms of their DOMESTIC POLICY but in terms of their FOREIGN POLICY they are much better than most the Republicans *and* Democrats in that they oppose American Interventionism in general. Raimondo's article was criticizing Dean strictly in terms of his Foreign Policy.

"Keep up the self cannibalization you fucking moron."

How eloquent and non-ideological ranting.

Value judgement 02.Sep.2003 12:55

maxomai

"I don't see ENOUGH difference between Howard Dean and the Bush regime. Dean won't do enough to distinguish himself from Bush but stand against Bush's actions, then stand up for the mindsets that precipitated those actions, and the results of those actions. Why does that make me unreasonable?"

This tells me that you don't give a shit about abortion, gay rights, the environment, the economy, the job market, education, or the PATRIOT act. Nor do you particularly care that the Bush administration lied to everybody about the reasons for this war.

Fair enough. However, people who DO care about one or more of these things will see a marked difference between Dean and Bush.

ha! 02.Sep.2003 13:22

sméagol

"a site as effective at reaching people as indymedia is"

ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!

yeah, effective at reaching people who are so wrapped up in their delusions of enlightenment and self-satisfaction that they don't even bother to vote..... that's sure worthwhile.

bothering to vote 02.Sep.2003 15:53

.

I certainly haven't stopped voting due to laziness, but rather disgust. The last time I sent in a ballot, I abstained on all the races but still chimed in on the initiatives. Don't mistake voting with good citizenship.

exactly my point.... 02.Sep.2003 16:05

sméagol

do you honestly think that the dean campaign has its folks sitting around thinking "hey, you know where we should try to spread the word about our candidate?.... on a website frequented by smug, self-righteous social dropouts who won't vote!"?

it's just folks speaking their mind, is all.

'sméagol' = DELUDED. 02.Sep.2003 16:08

ha

"delusions of enlightenment and self-satisfaction that they don't even bother to vote..... "

--yep,

yer "vote" sure did a lot of good last two times around, "sméagol" . . .


who can beat the beast? 02.Sep.2003 16:10

who is like him?

"This tells me that you don't give a shit about abortion, gay rights, the environment, the economy, the job market, education, or the PATRIOT act. Nor do you particularly care that the Bush administration lied to everybody about the reasons for this war."

Look, if Dean wants to play the "fear-of-terrorism" card as he's been doing, and further so in stating that what he thinks we're doing in Iraq is "morally right", why do I think HE gives a hoot about the Patriot Act... ?

If there's anyone I trust to keep their nose out of people's reproductive and lifestyle choices, it's not Dean. Maybe because he hasn't given me enough reason to trust him when it comes to anything else, maybe? Or is it because what Dean professes is that he will let states do as they will even if it may mean states butting into these matters as much as possible? He's not promising to take any open mindedness to the national level with a presidency...

"The issue that illuminates this matter is gay rights and, in particular, same-sex civil unions. Of course, as governor of Vermont, Dean signed into law a bill recognizing such unions. The Vermont law grants gay and lesbian couples all the rights and privileges of heterosexual married couples (save the right to be married itself).

That action has prompted a few reporters to ask Dean about his support for such a law at the national level. His answer has been virtually the same in all cases -- he is opposed. Why would he oppose a national law that he felt justified in endorsing for his state? Because he apparently believes that the federal government has no right to intervene in state decision-making."

 http://www.tompaine.com/feature2.cfm/ID/8387

And why are we still pandering to the "no one but Dean myth", and still talking about Dean as if there were no other Democratic candidates even running?

If you want to talk about the job market, education, etc. etc., I don't know how Dean is going to help that any more than Bush has by letting the Pentagon try to suck us dry. Kucinich's plan is to simply reclaim some of what the Pentagon is spending. That's a real plan. You could do something with that money. I mean, geez... the cost of 55 days of quamire in Iraq would finance the whole pricetag of Lieberman's health insurance program for 31 million Americans without coverage, and Dean can't see a problem with Pentagon spending? Helloo...

Nope, apparently Deans want to spend MORE...

"Homeland Security starts abroad. Governor Dean would increase military, intelligence and police focus on offensive operations against terrorists operating overseas."

 http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_policy_homelandsecurity

So you tell me... I do care, but frankly, I'm pretty worried...

sorry... 02.Sep.2003 16:24

who is like him?

I'm probably mangling figures. That's the billion-dollar a day Pentagon budget, not the daily cost of the Iraq occupation. Hopefully, you get the point anyway...

Peter DeFazio's been handing out graphs when he speaks showing how increased Federal spending has been used: (2001) NYC & Avation Relief 7%, Homeland Security 15%, Defense 73%, (2002) NYC & Avation Relief 21%, Homeland Security 17%, Defense 55%, (2003) NYC & Avation Relief 7%, Homeland Security 11%, Defense 78%...

It's a real problem, and not only can Dean not seem to see it, but he seem to threaten he's going to make it worse. Who or what is that going to help, and how?

Rebel with a Cause? 02.Sep.2003 16:54

Amanda Griscom

Grist: What is your vision for America's energy plan?

Dean: I want renewables. Wind is here. The Europeans are far ahead of us. We've lost our technological edge. The federal government needs to get involved in a positive way [if U.S. energy companies want] to remain competitive in the global marketplace. Solar is here. We ought to be making more aggressive investments there. In Vermont, the standard I supported is that every additional megawatt we use from now until 2010 must be renewable. On a federal level, I would set a standard of 15 percent renewables by 2010 and 20 percent by 2020 or higher -- maybe 25 percent. We can do that.

Grist: Wow -- 15 percent by 2010! Right now we have less than 2 percent non-hydro renewables on a national scale, so how would you get us from 2 percent to 15 percent in seven years?

Dean: Wind and solar.

Grist: Yes, but what policies would you put in place to so aggressively develop the wind and solar capacity?

Dean: First, improved tax credits, buy-down programs, net-metering laws, interconnection standards, and all that. But also, direct federal aid to construction of transmission lines. One of the problems is that we have this huge wind resource in the middle of the country that can't be used because there's not adequate transmission to places like Minneapolis, Denver, and Chicago.

Grist: Laying those lines and building that kind of capacity would be a tremendously expensive proposition. How would you expand the funding for that?

Dean: The president has enormous tax cuts, most of which are not necessary and don't help the economy, so that's where it would come from. I think people would rather have a program to put people back to work building things like transmission lines than they would have the tax cut.

Grist: Is there a dollar amount you'd be willing to spend on your energy plan?

Dean: No, I don't have a dollar amount. We'll have that in some number of weeks -- an official environmental policy that's all budgeted out.

Grist: What about biofuels?

Dean: We need to use ethanol. That's controversial in environmental circles because they don't like subsidies to Archer Daniels Midland, but the Brazilians have used 90 percent ethanol distilled from sugarcane and that does not have the high British-thermal-unit process that's required to make ethanol and it doesn't involve any subsidies. Ten percent of ethanol in everybody's gas tank does not require any mechanical change in building cars but it would save 2 percent of the entire world output of oil. Biodiesel is another alternative fuel I would support.

Grist: How about mileage standards? Would you tighten CAFE [Corporate Average Fuel Economy] standards?

Dean: That's the last piece. We need to create stricter standards and better incentives for fuel-efficient vehicles. My proposal is to make CAFE standards the same for SUVs as they are for the regular fleet. The technology to do that exists today. Ford will be coming out with a 35-mile-per-gallon, hybrid-engine SUV model this year. Lexus has one. People want SUVs and now they can get SUVs and trucks with good mileage standards. The CAFE standard would force a significant portion of the fleet to be hybrids in order to meet the average. I was one of four governors that had a standard requiring a certain percentage of cars sold in our state to be electric vehicles.

Grist: What about nuclear energy? Vermont gets a third of its electricity from nuclear power. Do you see this as a good long-term solution to greenhouse gases?

Dean: My position has always been that we ought not to have new nuclear plants until we figure out how to dispose of the waste properly. We have a nuclear plant in Vermont and I was never in favor of shutting it down as long as it's safe, but I think storing waste at 110 different sites around the country is a magnet for terrorists. We've got to figure out what we are going to do about a central disposal site for nuclear waste.


'sméagol', Grist-- 02.Sep.2003 17:09

ha

"smug, self-righteous social dropouts who won't vote!""

--I DO VOTE--

have you voted yet in the September 16, 2003 Multnomah County Measure 29, "'sméagol" the FUCKWAD?? I just don't put as much credence on the utterly meaningless pResidential Selection as on more important--with proportionately greater influence of outcome from individual human votes--local, regional, and national Congressional elections.

"smug, self-righteous" . . . if that's you're TRUE attitude towards Portland IMC, WHY ARE YOU BOTHERING TO WASTE TIME HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE? (oh yeah . . . **you're** wasting MY time . . .)

every fucking person on this newswire knows precisely who the Democrap pResidential candidates are, and what issues they stand for. Portland IMC is for non-corporate, grassroots community ACTIVISM, not Corporate One-Party politics.

if you need more info, go to dean.com or kucinich.com and rah-rah yourself to death. Personally, I get it blared from every newsstand, radio, and TV whenever I walk down the street.

it's all a gigantic heap of horseshit until the Democrapic nomination, after which every American has two choices in "voting":

1. Bu$h
2. (Bu$h's Democrap rival)

END OF STORY.
bu$h = coke
bu$h = coke
kerry = pepsi
kerry = pepsi
dean = dr. pepper
dean = dr. pepper

Another chapter in the book where the chapters are endless 02.Sep.2003 17:20

James

...And they're always the same.

To breathe or not to breather, that is the choice 02.Sep.2003 17:53

Bob

Two choices:
Bush - sell the environment to the corporations and appoint lobbyists as regulators and department heads.
Dean - enact strict reglulations, switch to renewable resources and penalize the violators of our public resources.

Is this at all the same choice?

Only if you have NO REGARD for our planet.

I smell FREEPERS

'Bob'--The FReeper. 02.Sep.2003 18:13

ha

nice one, "Bob". The rabid Dean repostings here on Portland Indymedia are surely the work of COINTELPro as they waste far more time than even gill-breathing [and that's an insult to fish] simpletons such as yourself.

Dean has no proof of ANYTHING--

(least of all the Democrapic nomination)

and just like all politicians the proof is in the pudding.

whatever happened to Al Gore?

(oh yeah . . . like any 'good sport', he "lost" the "election" . . .)


Accusations not true 02.Sep.2003 18:38

anonymous, yet poor, northEaster

Intertesting article.

But to clarify things, yes the Howard Dean campaign really is grass-roots. The supporters are in fact ordinary people and not people placed by the campaign to give that "homey feel."

To wit; the DNC is attempting to place any of the more traditional Democratic runners ahead of Dean because the DNC is afraid that Dean's views are "too liberal" ... Albeit not liberal enough for *this* community, but enough to make the DNC quake in their boots.

Also the cause for skepticim is the fact that there is so much talk by the general public over this man that it seems impossible that Dean would be metioned in the news daily as a serious contender to oust Resident Bush from office.

And when Dean was in town, he ate our homemade food!

not yet.... 02.Sep.2003 18:50

sméagol

"have you voted yet in the September 16, 2003 Multnomah County Measure 29"

no, actually.... but since i still have time, i don't see what this has to do with anything.


"'sméagol' the FUCKWAD"

hmmm.... it's interesting that vulgar personal attacks are left standing on this forum as long as they are toeing the portland indymedia line, but dissenting ones are censored.


"'smug, self-righteous'" . . . if that's you're TRUE attitude towards Portland IMC, WHY ARE YOU BOTHERING TO WASTE TIME HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE?"

because these arguments amuse me.... duh....


"(oh yeah . . . **you're** wasting MY time . . .)"

no, *you're* wasting your time.... take a little personal responsibility, for god's sake.


"....go to dean.com or kucinich.com and rah-rah yourself to death"

please point out where i have "rah-rahed" anything/anyone.


"END OF STORY"

well, i guess i'd better just shut my trap then, huh?

like playin' tit-for-tat, huh 'sméagol'? 02.Sep.2003 19:07

ha

""have you voted yet in the September 16, 2003 Multnomah County Measure 29" no, actually.... but since i still have time, i don't see what this has to do with anything."

--uhhhh,

it has to do with VOTING (remember *that* topic, "'sméagol"??). and as clearly explained above, i have certain specific reasons FOR voting in almost anything but a U.S. pResidential Selection.

""'sméagol' the FUCKWAD" hmmm.... it's interesting that vulgar personal attacks are left standing on this forum as long as they are toeing the portland indymedia line, but dissenting ones are censored."

--censored?!?? which "dissenting ones"? YOU fired the first volley by accusing Portland IMCers of being "smug, self-righteous social dropouts who won't vote". . . p.s. you're still a FUCKWAD.

"because these arguments amuse me.... duh.... "

--"amuse"? or does your sense of "personal responsibility" to supporting Dean's campaign have anything to do with it? naaahh . . .

"no, *you're* wasting your time.... take a little personal responsibility, for god's sake."

--yup, as i *already said*--here i am *again* responding to peabrain "sméagol" . . .

"please point out where i have "rah-rahed" anything/anyone."

--your earnestness in portraying our "website frequented by smug, self-righteous social dropouts who won't vote!" (AGAIN begging the question--why bother or waste time?? stay away from here if you don't care about--or can do nothing but disparage--grassroots community NON-CORPORATE POLITICAL PARTY activism)

"well, i guess i'd better just shut my trap then, huh?"

YEAH.

'sméagol' 02.Sep.2003 21:16

amused

duh

Beautiful! It's DEAN Brown Shirt FReepers, of course . . . 02.Sep.2003 21:32

Fred

I have to tell you guys, you are *way ahead* of the average 'left' or 'liberal' voter in San Francisco that I come across. I tell them Dean's plans and they stare at me goggle-eyed, then sternly say I must forward them some references, and not from any of those wacko things I read, but something real. So I send them the article out of the 'Forward.' It's hilarous to see them grabbing at straws as their hope for doing the 'right thing' by voting for Dean starts to come apart as they speak. But they're good people, so it's also sad.

And then after a moment of reflection, some sighs, comes, "Damn, I guess I'll have to vote for Nader again," and we all laugh. It's true, we'll have to.

This was an amazing post and excellent research. Award winning work! You should write it up as a column and send it in to Common Dreams and Alternet (Deanie news central), see if they publish it. If nothing else, it will annoy them.

Then cc a copy to Norman Solomon and someone at the Washington Post (I forget his name, but he exposed Dean on his Iraq stance - by actually questioning it - a couple of weeks ago. I sent him all my links and he responded, said he hadn't had all those).

The next question - did Dean's internet bs, whatever it is - bloggers, CIA, cointelpro, soccer moms, centrist IT people - have anything to do with his 'win' on the Moveon poll? It isn't absurd to guess that some technical wizardry *could* have played a part, given that his internet stuff has carried him.

But now the Deanies will all screech and cry and claim I'm insane. Go ahead, cry. Get a good screech out.

Really excellent post, Curious . . . hats off to you.

Dean is Sick and Kucinich is a Commie 02.Sep.2003 21:58

Justin Raimondo

September 3, 2003

At this point, we've gotten over 200 letters on the subject of my recent column on Howard Dean, and I must say I was somewhat taken aback by the vehemence of the Dean camp. Like their leader, they do not take criticism well. Well, that's tough, because they're going to get a lot more of it, and not only from me. Dean can't credibly claim the allegiance of anti-war voters while saying we must put more troops in Iraq and stay longer. Either the war was a mistake, and we must end the occupation a.s.a.p., or else it wasn't a mistake, and we're in for the long haul.

I don't buy for one minute the lame excuse of "we broke their country so now we're obligated to fix it." Obligated - to whom? If the answer is the Iraqi people, then why not ask them? A real anti-war candidate would call for an Iraqi plebiscite, but Dean - the anti-anti-war candidate - wants to impose a government on the Iraqis in which "Americans have to have the final say." A more sure-fire formula for a protracted guerrilla war in Iraq would be hard to imagine. I'm awful glad Dean is calling for national health insurance to cover the medical costs of every American - because our wounded and maimed-for-life soldiers coming back from Iraq are sure going to need it.

I received a number of letters accusing me of "ignoring" Dennis Kucinich, a charge to which I plead only partially guilty: it seems most of the rest of the country is also ignoring him, as he doesn't even come up as a blip in the polls. However, courtesy of CSPAN, I did notice his recent appeal, at the Philadelphia AFL-CIO candidates' debate, for "a workers government." With this kind of platform, I wonder why he has adopted "Power to the People" as his campaign slogan, when "All power to the Soviets!" is so much more timely.


we be nice to them, if they be nice to us.... 02.Sep.2003 22:21

sméagol

"it has to do with VOTING (remember *that* topic, "'sméagol"??)." yes, but as anyone with a rudimentary understanding of time and deadlines will tell you, there's still time, and the fact that i haven't voted doesn't mean i won't. "censored?!?? which "dissenting ones"?" other, previous ones that i obviously cannot point you to because.... THEY'VE BEEN CENSORED. again, duh..... "YOU fired the first volley by accusing Portland IMCers of being "smug, self-righteous social dropouts who won't vote""" well, that's true.... but when the shoe fits.... besides, though i didn't go so far to explain it, i was obviously talking about the presidential election, which many folks here have said they won't vote in. all this was in the context of the topic of this thread-- the bizarre accusation that the dean campaign had come up with the strategy to try to "get the word out" to the users of this site. so now, follow the logic portland imc is heavily populated by those who don't vote in the presidential election, and..... the dean campaign is trying to get dean elected to the office of president... so.... why on earth would they care about the non-voters who frequent portland imc? answer: they wouldn't. "p.s. you're still a FUCKWAD." you hurt me, ha... you cut me real deep, just now. "amuse"? or does your sense of "personal responsibility" to supporting Dean's campaign have anything to do with it? naaahh . . . " i have no responsibility to the dean campaign. at all. ""no, *you're* wasting your time.... take a little personal responsibility, for god's sake." --yup, as i *already said*--here i am *again* responding to peabrain "sméagol" . . . " well, now.... that feels better, doesn't it? *sniff* i'm so proud of you.... *wipes tear from corner of eye* ""please point out where i have "rah-rahed" anything/anyone." --your earnestness in portraying our "website frequented by smug, self-righteous social dropouts who won't vote!" (AGAIN begging the question--why bother or waste time??" that is not rah-rahing. as a matter of fact, it's quite the opposite "stay away from here if you don't care about--or can do nothing but disparage--grassroots community NON-CORPORATE POLITICAL PARTY activism) " look, you know i'm right.... you (and many others here) are all so supremely self-satisfied with your "grassroots community non-corporate blah blah" and i called you out on it. deal. or appeal to the powers that be to censor me yet again. whatever. ""well, i guess i'd better just shut my trap then, huh?" YEAH. " why am i not surprised?

note to self.... 02.Sep.2003 22:25

sméagol

don't format as html....

HUH???????!??!?!?? 02.Sep.2003 22:26

wha??

" look, you know i'm right.... "

Dean Defense Forces: Lobbing E-mail at the Enemy 03.Sep.2003 07:49

Wash Post uncovered these jerks early on

Dean Defense Forces: Lobbing E-mail at the Enemy
By Howard Kurtz
Washington Post Staff Writer

When Dotty Lynch, CBS's senior political editor, wrote a column criticizing Howard Dean on foreign policy, she was deluged with e-mails defending the Democratic presidential candidate, often in similar language.

"They were all rather insulting: 'Why don't you do your research?' " Lynch says. "When anything's orchestrated, you sort of smell a rat."

The letters were indeed generated by Dean Defense Forces, a volunteer outfit affiliated with the doctor's campaign. Day after day, the DDF Web log, which is linked to Dean's official site, hammers reporters deemed critical of Dean and urges its followers to flood the in-boxes of offending journalists.
 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47852-2003Jul25.html

wow..... 03.Sep.2003 15:01

epstein's mother

i never would have imagined they were a bunch of organized volunteers!

you deanies are despicable....

HO HO has the MO MO 03.Sep.2003 15:09

Dan The Bassman

The way I see it Dean has the "mo" right now and Kerry better get his act together if he wants to make a challenge. The rest of the field appears to be out of the race. I don't care much for Kerry and since we are ruled by a two party system the choice is going to come down to Bush or Dean, IMHO.

I heard him speak a couple of Sunday's ago and was impressed by much of his speech and the attendance. I plan on finding out more about Dean and his campaign tonight at the Fireside Cafe (13th Powell) at 7 pm. I can't imagine they'll say anything that would influence me to vote for Bush, though. Unless there is some drastic discovery I will probably get behind his campaign all the way!


P.S. If given the choice to choose between Coke and Dr. Pepper, I'll choose to have the choice and choose one or the other (even though I'd rather have a beer).


Hmmm, that sounds like a Comedy Skit.

-Picture this: A patron ordering lunch at a diner

Waiter: Sir would you like Coke or Dr. Pepper.
Patron: I'll have a beer please.
Waiter: No Beer, Only Coke or Dr. Pepper
Patron: Well then, place an order for beer for me
Waiter: As you wish, sir.

-Time Passes

Waiter: Here is a Coke for you sir
Patron: I can't drink Coke. I'd rather have Dr. Pepper
Waiter: Too late go somewhere else if you want Dr. Pepper now

Repeat above scene a couple times over the week.

-Next day
-Patron returns to diner and is finishing ordering once again...

Waiter: Thank you for your order sir
Patron: Wait, I want a Dr. Pepper with that.
Waiter: So sorry, Coke only no Dr. Pepper.

-END-



Now, if I could just get a hold of Dan Akeroyd and Bill Murray...


Money 03.Sep.2003 17:24

anonymous

Dean is the only Democrat that has collected any money of note... through a website.

Maybe Republicans who are increasingly afraid of where Bush is taking us, have decided to quietly do the almost unthinkable and support a Democrat.

There is something strangely aggressive about his campaign... strangely Republican.

Dean doesn't strike me as left of Democrat. I think the party doesn't understand him and feel that his support is coming from somewhere else.

Dan The Bassman 03.Sep.2003 19:45

OTW

Is that you qb? Long time no hear. So you saw Dean eh - what else have you been up to?

DEAN! DEAN! DEAN! 03.Sep.2003 21:57

fuck that, unite resist!

I think the whole thing IS a government plan, to get people on indymedia to type the name Dean alot, that way it will forever be eched in peoples minds, even those of us who find the system compleatly and utterly moribund will soon be passing the name on. kids in black clad -who dont give a fuck about politics, will be spray painting DEAN on walls and streets just because it sounds revolutionary. - or not.

MAYBE the whole thing is a real great way of fucking with your heads, MAYBE DEAN and BUSH can suck a big cock\, because frankly im on PORTLAND INDYMEDIA because i give a shit about portland. this is out city. we have some issues that need work like, work, education ( note my spelling, also why does it seem like the people comming off liberal at the local coffee shop because they are for Dean and against the war seem like they are also the ones secretly not voteing FOR mesure 28, then complain about people not voteing. VOTE! may have been a great liberal slogan in the 60s
but now as always times are a changen, and so do us anarchists.
or maybe us kids just need to grow up.
UNTE RESIST!
age 14
pps middle school

Whoa, now we're talking "MO" - Dean meet-up at Fireside 03.Sep.2003 23:22

Dan The Bassman reporting danthebassman2001@yahoo.com

Okay, I went, I saw, I couldn't believe it. I have been involved in political organizing and campaigns and I have not seen this kind of grass roots support and energy before, ever! The place was packed and full of Dean Cheerleaders. Yes, it was rah, rah, but not in a bad way. Ages ranged from 18-80 with of all types of people.

I met two very interesting gentlemen. The first was a Republican, Gulf War One vet who could not stand where Bush was taking us as a nation. The other person was an international Aid worker who had been in the Peace Corps and who had recently been working in Kosovo.

I got the impression that the motivation of the campaign and the sentiment went way beyond Dean and I hope it does. Electing Dean will obviously not solve all or even many of our nation's problems. But, if this kind of civic minded motivation could carry though from households to school boards to state houses, I think we could see some meaningful change.

And for that reason I am on board. I think you should be, too.

If you just can't stomach it then, by all means, create your own movement and invite me to visit. As far as the 2004 race for President goes I don't think you anyone stands a chance against Bush or Dean (see my post above). If you don't think the presidential race matters the don't bother back biting those of who do. It's my belief that this movement promotes the general values of those who subscribe to IndyMedia so please, don't look this gift horse in the mouth even if you don't like the looks of all his teeth.

Rah Rah!

To OTW - 'fraid I don't know who you are. Check out my site or shoot me an email.


TAKE THE RINGS OUT OF YOUR NOSES 22.Jan.2004 09:27

S E Skinner

All this talk of fascism, and degradation of civil liberties sounds absurd. Do some research and think for yourself instead of spouting recycled rhetoric. Go live in Africa for a while, and maybe you'll gain a true appreciation of democracy.

Your energy would be better spent proposing succinct proposals for change in place of empty-headed attacks on politicians. It's not a question of Democrats vs. Republicans vs. Libertarians, but a more fundumental question of how to end the special interests who have hijacked our political process.