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The Lies Are Coming Home: Questions and Outrage Among Military..

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RW ONLINE: The Lies are Coming Home

The Lies are Coming Home

Questions and Outrage Among Military Families

Revolutionary Worker #1211, August 24, 2003, posted at rwor.org

"Somewhere down the line, we became an occupation force in their eyes. We don't feel like heroes any more. We are outnumbered. We are exhausted. We are in over our heads."

Private Isaac Kindblade, 671st Engineer Company

"It doesn't seem like anybody higher up cares to realize what these soldiers have been through, or what they're going through on a daily basis. I can guarantee you they've never stood out in a checkpoint in the heat of the day, day after day, full battle rattle, always wondering if today's the day somebody's going to shoot me."

An unnamed officer, speaking to Knight- Ridder

"We were supposed to go home as soon as the war was over... The morale of the men is very low. I'm an NCO so I'm not supposed to share my feelings with them, but sometimes I see them walking around like zombies."

Sergeant Al Menendez

"That's my biggest fear, that my husband will come back different. Even if you're GI Joe, if you have to kill someone, that's not something you just forget about."

Valerie Decal, the wife of an artillery sergeant, Fort Hood

The war is not turning out the way the U.S. soldiers were told it would.

They were told that "the fastest way to go home is through Baghdad"--and months later, they are still manning roadblocks in the blinding summer heat, with no end in sight.

These soldiers were told they would be welcomed as "liberators." They find themselves acting as occupiers--under fire from a hostile population.

They were told the war would help make their families more secure. But no "terrorist links" or weapons of mass destruction have been found.

President Bush announced victory on May 1. A few days later, one soldier wrote his parents about pulling dead GIs from a downed helicopter: "I had blood all over me, and all I could think about was this guy's wife and kids who were in his wallet staring at me. The war is over? Yeah, tell that to these guys' families."

The lies of this war are coming home, and the soldiers are not.

A deep sense of betrayal is spilling over --from the soldiers themselves to their families back home.

Telling the Soldiers to Shut Up

The Army's 3rd Infantry Division was a spearhead in the invasion. The division's 2nd Brigade mowed into Baghdad's southern suburbs in early April -- leaving thousands of Iraqi civilians and soldiers dead in the streets. In May they were sent to occupy Fallujah, where U.S. killing of civilians quickly intensified resistance among the people.

After months in the war zone, the soldiers of the 3rd's First and Second Brigades expected to go home--and were given three different return dates in just a few weeks.

On July 14, they were told their return was postponed. The Pentagon needed soldiers for punishing "sweeps" through hundreds of villages and neighborhoods. The soldiers felt betrayed.

Sgt. Terry Gilmore described breaking the news to his wife: "I just felt like my heart was broken. I could not figure out how they could keep us here after they told us we were coming home."

In an interview with ABC, Spc. Clinton Deitz said: "If Donald Rumsfeld was here, I'd ask him for his resignation."

"I've got my own `Most Wanted' list," one sergeant told ABC. "The aces in my deck are Paul Bremer, Donald Rumsfeld, George Bush and Paul Wolfowitz."

The Pentagon responded to these interviews with threats. One officer said, "It went all the way up to President Bush and back down again on top of us. At least six of us here will lose our careers."

The 3rd Infantry Division announced reporters could no longer interview soldiers. No more journalists will be "embedded" with the unit.

General John Abizaid, the Central Command's top officer, said, "None of us that wear this uniform are free to say anything disparaging about the Secretary of Defense or the President of the United States." He said "commanders on the scene" would decide what punishments to lay down.

The military newspapers reminded all soldiers that the Uniform Code of Military Justice states soldiers can be imprisoned for up to three years for making "disloyal statements." The Pentagon has not needed to press such charges since the Vietnam war.

For many soldiers, used to thinking of themselves as "citizens with freedom of speech"-- the open threat of prison came as a rude shock.

Spc. Brandon Gullen, of the 864th Engineer Battalion, said in an e-mail from Iraq: "I find it absurd that these same people we put our lives on the line for can punish us for having our own opinions-- which, in effect, is punishing our open-mindedness."

Meanwhile, Stephen Eagle Funk, a courageous GI resistor, is facing a military trial in early September where he faces a possible prison sentence for "unauthorized absence."

And the Pentagon has announced that soldiers sent to Iraq must now accept doing a full year tour there -- they called their announcement "rotation predictability."

The Families Speak Out

"Frankly, I am sick and tired of hearing Pentagon officials, generals, politicians, and people at the Defense Department continue to say that the morale of the troops is still high, when every single person knows full well that it isn't."

Erica Herrera, wife of a helicopter pilot, in an e-mail sent from a U.S. base in Germany to the Army's Stars and Stripes newspaper

"The brass will have no control over us, however, and those same people (mostly courageous women) will be able to say what they want, when they want, and we'll protect their identities if that's what they need....We are going directly to those upon whom our would-be emperors depend to carry out their grandiose and deadly vision ---the military. "

Stan Goff, former Green Beret, father of a soldier and member of "Military Families Speak Out"

"The War in Iraq is Not Over!!! The President says "Bring 'em on!" but it is our loved ones that are facing the bullets and we say: Bring Them Home NOW!!! "

from the website of "Military Families Speak Out"

Many of the families of the GIs live in communities around army bases--where the bitter e- mails from Iraq spread painful questions about the war.

A lot of these families remain deeply patriotic and pro-military--and quite a few think the war was originally justified. But suddenly much of what they believed no longer makes sense--and many feel the government broke faith with them.

To add insult to injury, the White House is cutting funds for families of deployed soldiers, is planning to reduce the "imminent danger" pay, and opposes increasing the benefits for combat deaths--from $3,000 to $6,000.

Many were horrified by Bush's now famous taunt to the Iraqi resistance: "Bring 'em on!"

Marticia, mother of a soldier, wrote in an open letter: "May I just say, Mr. President, perhaps you truly do believe in the invincibility of our military. However, the next time you invite attacks on my son, and others, kindly stand in front of our soldiers, rather than hiding behind."

"Some wives are starting to question why we're there in the first place," says Claudia Barnett, an Army wife shopping outside Fort Stewart in Georgia.

When the Fort Stewart base command organized a mass meeting of 800 spouses in July to explain the continuing deployment of the 3rd Infantry Division, the frustrations boiled over into a near riot. One social worker on the base said: "They were crying, cussing, yelling, and screaming for their men to come back." A colonel had to be "escorted" out--to protect him from the soldiers' wives.

Afterwards Anita Blount, wife of 3rd Infantry Division's Commanding General, openly accused the protesting military families of encouraging the Iraqi resistance. She wrote in an open letter: "I know that many of you believe you should embark on a campaign to raise awareness of the need for [the 3rd Infantry] to return. We need to be aware of a possible outcome of our outcries that could backfire on us directly. When the Iraqis see media coverage of disgruntled Americans publicly campaigning for the return of our soldiers from Iraq, they are encouraged and believe their strategy is working."

Military commanders are threatening to "end the careers" of soldiers whose family members speak out around the war. But despite such pressure, military families have continued to find ways to state their demands. At Fort Stewart, soldiers' wives even held a public protest rally in the parking lot of a local K-Mart.

All of this is quite remarkable--and almost unheard of over the past decades. The speed with which some families have turned against this war is a sign of how quickly the official lies have come apart, and how bleak this occupation looks to the GIs occupying Iraq.

In an August 13 press conference, the group "Military Families Speak Out" announced they were calling for the immediate withdrawal of U.S. forces from Iraq and added they saw no justification for the deployment in the first place.

Susan Schuman, a member whose son is a Massachusetts National Guardsman in Iraq, said: "Our soldiers are demoralized. They are fighting an illegal and unjustified war."

Nancy Lessin, a co-founder of the group, said: "We believe very strongly that the reason that we're over there had nothing to do with weapons of mass destruction and had nothing to do with links between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaida, that it was in fact about oil markets and empire building. That's not what we should be doing."


This article is posted in English and Spanish on Revolutionary Worker Online
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Phone: 773-227-4066 Fax: 773-227-4497

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here is the truth 01.Sep.2003 10:10

really mad and sad Marine dad

There is a war.......... hello leftys, there is a war, it doesnt matter that LOVE THY BADGUYS will bring peace, the truth and your all to blind and stupid to see it that these people we are fighting there and here REALLY WANT TO KILL US! IT really doesnt matter who or what was at fault for 911 and why they hate us......ITS A FACT THEY DO! If you want to run and hide, ITS YOUR RIGHT TO DIE .........IF YOU WANT TO FIGHT .....ITS YOUR RIGHT! My SON IS A COMBAT Marine......that means he kills and breaks things, he is really good at his job, THAT MEANS YOU FUCKING COWARDS DONT HAVE TO DO IT! That also means that possibly he might whack someone there who wants t o come here, and whack YOU, you should all thank him for his service and try to do whats right for once and decide you better to something for once, instead of killing some of us here with this protest crap.........if NOT.....YOU WILL SEE ANOTHER 911.

to the mad dad 01.Sep.2003 10:24

clara

I cannot put myself in your place, but I do try to understand some of your frustrations. War is evil and it produces nothing but death and all who participate in it are wounded. Until we come to understand that this is just one world and that there are no sides to take, we will continue with the insanity of violence.

Illiterate Mad Dumb Dad 01.Sep.2003 10:59

Vote With yer Pocketbook

Hi from Marine Skool!

I 2 an a stoopid moran that tinks that 'your' is 'you're,' and *I* call other peeoplea stoopid.

I also tink 2 that my kid is a goot killer for Busch. And me grasp of realty is a goot 1! Yea 9/11!

Go USA! Go team!

Dear Dad 01.Sep.2003 12:09

well-wisher

Please forgive that smartass. Sometimes people make typos, especially if they are worked up about something! And your anger is very understandable. Your son's life is in danger, and you feel that oppostion to the war is disrespectful and ungrateful.

Please notice that the protesters in Georgia described in the article are families of servicemen and women. And at the beginning of the article, the quotes are from soldiers themselves. These people have become aware of the reasons why our government sent them over there, and I believe that if you learn more about those reasons, you will become sadder and madder. It didn't have anything to do with 9-11 (except as a bogus pretext), and it wasn't because They want to kill us. Iraqis want to kill U.S. soldiers now, because they see the GI's as an occupying force.

Bush's lies are unravelling fast. I hope Americans will grow and learn from the lessons of this horrible, misguided war. And I hope your son comes home soon alive and well.

P.S.: "Love thy enemies" really is the only answer in this world. It is a profound challenge, one which humanity hasn't nearly mastered yet. Let's keep working on it individually and collectively.

Well, yeah, they sure do wanna kill us after what we have done.. 01.Sep.2003 13:02

No tolerance for Mad Dads

You know -- your son is going to come back to you in either a body bag or as a basket case.

Let us know your thoughts on PREEMPTIVE war when you get your real education.

Btw, those were not leftys who made those statements in the article.......

Oh, and you might want to arrange to send some water to that boy of yours; the US military isn't too concerned about the boys getting enough water - or food..........

Your son is in a fucked up situation. Really fucked up. And my heart goes out to him. Did he join the Marines to get away from you? What a gamble that was.\

You just don't get it, bud. We are 100% in support of our troops. We wouldn't even want to send offensive bastards like you over there......much less our teenagers.

even talking 01.Sep.2003 13:20

clara

We cannot even talk about issues of war without letting anger get ahead of thought.

honestly feel bad for the mad dad 01.Sep.2003 14:15

g

I feel bad for the mad dad. No one deserves to lose their son to war, and I can understand how the anguish at the thought of such a thing would be compounded by the thought that some people, his fellow citizens whom he is ostensibly serving, might be ungrateful at his sacrifice. All I can say to the mad dad is, I don't want your son to die, and I most especially don't want him to die as a result of government lies and the no-so-hidden megalomaniacal agendas of the powerful. I must respectfully ask Mad Dad a question or two, to ponder:

1) Do you think the government ever lies?
2) Do you think the powerful could ever sacrifice the weak, using power and deceit, to push their own agendas and pump up their own profits?
3) Have you looked into any of the no-bid multibillion dollar contracts Halliburton, Dick Cheney's company, has been winning of late?
4) Have you looked at any of the "privatization" schemes Mr. Paul Bremer et al have in store for Iraq and Iraq's oil, and who will profit from them?

I could ask you many more in the same vein, but this would be a good start. Please investigate these things before you get too angry at those of us who HAVE looked at some of these things and don't like what we see, those of us who don't want your son or the sons and daughters of people in Iraq to be sacrificed for the wrong reasons.

Former Military guy's perspective... 01.Sep.2003 14:22

Portland Ponderer

I was in the Navy during Gulf War, Part I. No, I did not see combat or anything, it pretty much was over by the time I got out of school. Instead, I opened my eyes, and listened to what happened around me.

As far as the accusations that military leaders would punish soldiers for their "belligerent (IE outspoken) family members - I think that is 100% likely to have already occurred and will continue to do so. Maybe their platoon goes home, but this lone soldier gets to stay and "familiarize" the replacements with the area? What an honor!

This kind of blatantly unfair and outrageous behaviour is frequently doled out on our soldiers and sailors - ask anyone former military who will be honest. Just like pro sports, but on a more severe level, the military has its own code, one you must learn to operate within.

1. Expressing your opinion is fine - so long as it is in accordance with the federal government and your CO's opinion.
2. Mistakes or "indiscretions" made by you, anyone you are in charge of or your family are your responsibility - you will be punished for their actions.
3. You are expendable property, and will do as told. When told to jump, you ask "How high sir?"

My heart goes out to all soldiers overseas, and even in the US - their job sucks ass, and their boss can get away with things even WalMart is envious of. I also have a strong sense of empathy for the families of our troops - their price paid is high for this unjust war and any action our government chooses to undertake. I recognize that like me, most of these soldiers joined the military to do something to give back to the country they love, to act in the spirit of public service and duty. They honor their country, and love it so much they are willing to give their lives for it - if there is a just cause. The government tells them they are doing just that - sacrificing for a just cause, and they do so in such a way to instill a sense of comraderie, and they try their best to discourage questioning of your superiors.

The ones not brainwashed or placated into believing the lies from above realize something - this is no just cause. Bush has a hard-on for war, and nothing like a few hundred(maybe thousand) dead troops will satisfy his lust for blood. Too bad the last time Bush shed any blood was from a shaving mishap. He should be over there, sword raised, leading his troops into battle - not disgracing a flight suit and the deck of an Aircraft carrier full of sailors living a nomadic, crowded, hardworking life to support his incomprehensible missions.

I also realize something else - I seriously do not think any anti-war protestor would want harm to come to our troops. While I was in the military, I was locked on base for three days thanks to a bomb threat, but I still did not fear the protestors gathered around the gate of the base. I understood their reasoning, and whether I agreed with them or not, realized I had signed up to protect their right to loathe what I was assigned to do. We learned from the radicals in the Vietnam era - the troops are not the cause of the evil, they are ordered, coerced to do things they may not agree with. Fatigue, stress and desperation lead to some of them doing bad things out of sheer frustration and depression.

You are forced to take an oath you know - to promise to kill anyone ordered to, if asked by your CO, no questions asked. If you do not take that oath, you do not join the military - period.

I guess here's the scoop - families of the military - realize that while you do have the right to free speech, your family in uniform does not, and most likely will pay dearly if you speak loudly around the wrong people. No - it is not right, but it happens. Be aware of this before you get too loud, ask yourself and maybe your loved one if they support you expressing your opinion, knowing that this can happen. I am not encouraging fear, but trying to dispel the foggy lack of clarity the military excels at spreading.

Realize that once they sign up, your uniformed family members will most likely be lied to, and will be forced to do extended tours of duty, kill people and possibly do nothing they were trained for.

When they return - they will be different people - love them, accept this, and help them accept themselves. They may have been forced to do things they could have a lifetime of nightmares about.

Dear NO TOLERENCE 01.Sep.2003 14:45

MAD DAD

He was home for 2 weeks for his grandmothers death, what you see mostly are reservists bitching as most would understand, because he is not in reserves, IT IS IS REGULAR JOB .(do you have one?) He told me about water conditions..HELLO, THAT WAS SHORTLIVED! The list goes like this ammo, water food.... I LIKE THE IDEA OF NOT BEING OUT OF AMMO! (they have all they need) I WOULD HAPPILY DRINK TREATED WATER! THEY GOT FOOD TO EAT.....TAKE YOUR LEFT SLANT MEDIA REPORTS AND STICK IT. He thinks the military, thanks to people like you have gone soft( that would be the prior president ) because the mentality to fight....THAT IS WHAT THEY DO! is less because people like you think we need to love people like these MF's who think we need to go to hell because of who were are and that we dont pray to ALLAH! The real news is that 911 is a prelude of what these people want .........(.not all Muslims are bad) just the factions that really are the problem and are doing the killing. How fucking bad is it? I WAS IN NAM......200 HUNDRED A WEEK AT TIMES WERE BEING KILLED......... THIS DEAL ISNT NICE.......BUT IT ISNT NAM! NOW FOR THE REST OF YOU SICK PEOPLE ..IF I FAILED TO SPELL SICK, BASTARDS OR COWARDS OR DEGENERATES..EXCUSEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE ME!

AND... 01.Sep.2003 14:57

this thing here

... as well as helping out soldiers who have returned from the war, let's not be so fatalistic and resigned about KEEPING SOLDIERS OUT OF WAR IN THE FIRST PLACE. that's the whole freaking point of the anti-war marches earlier this year. it wasn't to hate the soldiers or their families, it was to prevent them going through the pain and suffereing they are now.

i guess i don't see how many american's can say they support the troops while also saying they support the war, and the idea of the war, and the reasoning for the war. how are you supporting someone if you're supporting them being sent to their death? how can you say those who DON't support the war, and DON'T want soldiers to die, don't support the troops? it doesn't make sense to me.

"well son/daughter/wife husband, we support the war, even if it means you'll die. here's a pat on the back/hug." NO! no one should have to go through that, or feel like they have to say that in public out of loyalty or something. let's NOT GET INTO that situation. it's not worth it.

war ISN'T worth it. war ISN't a forgone conclusion. let's hope that military families DON'T have to go though it. that's the whole freaking point...

questions for 'MAD DAD'-- 01.Sep.2003 15:26

we'd like to know

"I WAS IN NAM......"

1. What branch of military service?

2. Rank? Serial Number?

3. Tours of duty dates? Dates in country?

4. Date of discharge from military?

to:really mad and sad Marine dad 01.Sep.2003 15:54

alex

Quit yer pissin' and moanin'. Your boy is a hired killer. I suspect that he's as stupid as you and that's why he's over there. The only difference is that he'll come back scarred and more realistic and you'll still be bitter and hateful. Get a grip. The folks advocating not going to war with the rest of the world are not necessarily pansies. I'd be more than happy to see you die at the hands of islamic extremists, for example, but would fight to the death to defend myself. It's my right as an American to tell you that I pray every night that your kind are eliminated by your equivalent on "their side" and if you don't like it then you don't like America so move to North Korea where you'll be happy shielded from dissent.

Its a grand old flag,
it's a high flyin' flag
and blah, blah
blah, blah, blah
blah, blah, blah

Whoa! 01.Sep.2003 16:14

step back

Mad Dad is really mad... AND HE KNOWS WHERE THE CAPS LOCK BUTTON IS!!!!

Ignore this kind of garbage. Isn't it heartening to know that soldiers and their families are waking up too???

put your money where your mouth is dad... 01.Sep.2003 17:17

Kim Kimbrough

Hey dad, if you're so tough why aren't you over there fighting. Big man wants to stay back and see his own kid go over there and suffer. You're shit. Your own boy might die and you're into it. You got a problem with my opinion you can tell me to my face. I work at the Portland Business Alliance and I'll totally show you the meaning of "do unto others."

All Lies 01.Sep.2003 17:25

ranger

I feel your pain MAD DAD! However, your son is being used by a supposed leader that never spent a nanosecond in combat, but who likes to pose as a soldier. Sorry that your son is fighting a purposeless war against a people that had nothing to do with 9-11, who have no discernable weapons of mass destruction and if they have them somewhere, they decided not to use them on your son or anyone else. Odd isn't it? I regret that not everyone is as sympathetic as me, but can you blame them. Look at all the money we've thrown away into this war and look at the state of this country. By the way, I do have a job (actually 3) and I served.

not in my name 01.Sep.2003 19:38

sorrier still

"that means he kills and breaks things, he is really good at his job, THAT MEANS YOU FUCKING COWARDS DONT HAVE TO DO IT!"

I can't quite understand what you're going through, because no one in my family has been sent there... yet. But please remember, I didn't ask him to do that for me. I don't want him to be there. Myself and others in earshot went out of our way to beg people not to let it happen that he be sent there in the first place. Meanwhile, what freedom is he fighting for? Not the freedom for me to say, "don't send that boy in my name". Not the freedom to choose that if someone gets to die for me being a "coward," that it be me not him. Not the freedoms I most wish I had right now. I'd love to try to think the best of our boys being there, but if it were up to me they'd be home now, and there is no-one going to see that our boys shouldn't be there, with their eyes full of stars and stripes and their ears full of "God Bless America".

Just one thing... don't ever... don't EVER let the slimy weasels that put our troops in that stupid hellhole make you or anybody else think that it's some kind of treasonous act to do what comes natural and want your flesh and blood out of harm's way NOW, and to say so...

Almost... but not quite! 01.Sep.2003 20:21

Vote With yer Pocketbook

Well I'll be darned...

Just when I was thinking that Illiterate Mad Dad was some sort of spammer, he comes back with that retort. Normally I think that I would just let the bozo rant, but now that I've had some wine I feel like some comfort typin'.

Hey Dad: yer son may die so that you can pay less than $2/gal for gas.

Hey Dad: yer son *kills* people because we invaded their country. What would you do if Iraq invaded us?

Hey Dad: I am quickly realizing a correlation between literacy and duplicity.

Hey Dad: Do something other than watch Fox News or reading mainstream newspapers. The two synapses that yer firin' on just *might* put a picture together that equates the fact that we, as Americans, are being tremendously mislead to support a war that makes three people wealthier. (awright, maybe more than 3, but not more than 10)

Hey Dad: It's dupes like you that get yer son (and OTHER parent's kids) killed. Oh yeah!! For Freedom! For the Flag!

You're (note: you're=you are, and your=possessiveness) part of the reason why so many human beings needlessly kill each other. What Iraqi do you suppose is going to come here and do harm? Which one? You moron. For the love of stars, git yer head outta yer ass and try to realize that there may just be more to the truth than you're being fed.

Am I intolerant? You bet! You come on as some sort of holier-than-thou, semen-supplyin', killer-kid-producing parent, and then attack the *only* people who want to see yer dipshit, goose-steppin' bristlemelon-off-spring survive the latest attempt at profiteering by our whacked "leadership." Everybody else just wants cheap gas, even if yer kid dies.

So FUCK YOU. I certainly do not hope that your son dies. Many fathers have lost their sons in this idiocy, however, and I suspect that your rightousness may lie in the fact that you haven't.

Maybe we see that losing a single life for profit is unacceptable, and if you're willing to give up your son for lower gas prices, then my charge card is ready and waiting for 99-cent fuel, thanks to yer kid giving "the ultimate sacrifice."

Vote With yer Pocketbook brings up a good point 01.Sep.2003 22:03

alex

After thinking about it what I want to know is WHERE THE FUCK IS MY CHEAP GAS?

No one is "forced" to do anything - soldiers included 01.Sep.2003 23:03

GRINGO STARS

Industrial slaughter is the the reason the military exists. Everyone who signs up knows this. You will be asked to kill. Period. It's your job. To kill, or to support the huge killing machine. Now let's be clear about this next part;

You have made a decision to kill people, as a soldier, And not just to kill people who you have a personal problem with, but you have made a personal decision to kill anyone you are ordered to kill.

These soldiers weren't forced to do a damn thing. They CHOSE to follow orders and CHOSE to kill people, often not caring whether the person is a civilian or military, often not caring who the bomb/missile will end up killing or maiming.

These are personal decisions. To shirk your responsibility as a human and say "I was forced/ordered to do it." is the respected military way. That kind of you-have-no-choice mentality is encouraged.

This is turning out to be no little TV-special-type war-honeymoon warlet like Desert Storm: Gulf War part I, no no...

As the ground war continues to take its personal toll, soldiers will slowly see more Vietnam-type behaviour. That means; We will see enlisted men killing their officers in order to stay alive. anyone who gets you killed is the enemy, regardless of which army they're in. US soldiers in Vietnam eventually understood this and stopped that genocidal war dead in its tracks by disobeying orders and actually killing their more heartless, bloodthirsty commanders. Vietnam wasn't ended by peaceful protestors at home. It was ended by making the US Army impotent - officers couldn't make an order without negotiating each order with all his men, for fear of them killing him. Read about how the soldiers' revolt ended Vietnam, and how Soldiers learned they are humans instead of order-following, killing-machines;

 http://www.isreview.org/pdfs/09/soldiers_revolt.pdf

KIMBROUGH AND THE REST OF YOU 01.Sep.2003 23:19

MAD DAD

It appears that you have a slant on this war from me..... I DON 'T GIVE A F--- About cheap gas! that isnt why I support where we are in Iraq! I DO NOT CARE WHO IS PRESIDENT.... I do care that this one decided to take the war to these people and as terror is spawned in the middle east, it needs to stay there ,NOT HERE!

A BIG PS 01.Sep.2003 23:32

Mad Dad

And since this is PORTLAND,OREGON, a known hotbed for major and minor sleeper cell types,( Hey Kimbrough! read all about you in WW.. why dont you take that bigmouth of yours and run for mayor, I THINK you could actually do the job) The rest of you need to ask yourselfs, can another 911 happen? can it happen here? Is the country doing all it can to protect ourself from another hit? If you dont care, if your afraid of ASHCROFT, you need to be, because some of you here need to be watched. My son was downtown with his Mom, she works next to city hall, you all remember the "peace campers" JR, "cleaned up the sidewalk art one day as he passed through the stench of human waste there....scuffed up some brand new shoes on the chalk art and you know what....... Not a word was said! he didnt like what he saw, the friends in BAGDAD he went back too after two weeks home didnt like it either. This country is getting killed....AND IT ISNT ALL IN BAGDAD!

Mad Dad - I fear you and your rabid kind... 02.Sep.2003 01:26

Portland Ponderer

... as well as anyone so rabidly unthinking about the position they are told to follow. Sure, it feels like your truth, and you believe it, which is all good and well. Why would you be on this site if you think this way though? To "stir it up" with those damn hippies and pansies that are anit-war? I don't think anyone here truly wishes ill on your son, nor do they support why he is where he is.

Being raised in a household with a father not unlike you, I was told to believe that if it was for the flag, by golly it was just and right, America can do no wrong. Well, newsflash MY MILITARY EXPERIENCE is what made me see how wrong that way of thinking is. I think most people are good at heart, and want good things. The probloem is - we have too many ways of defining what is good and right, too many ways of making that good and right come to be, and too many things we are willing to be hypocritical about to make our vision of what is right come to pass.

As far as 911 goes - I was shocked that day, but my first first thought after catching my breath was "wow, someone is pissed at US. What did we do to piss them off so much?" and "If they are so pissed, why didn't this happen sooner?"

To this day - I have heard no compelling evidence supporting the election theif's claim that Iraq had anything to do with al qaeda, I have heard no evidence of WMD's (outside of what we have used - tear gas, depleted uranium, etc) and no reason to think this war was justified.

Yes - when we went to the gulf in '91 we shouldda gotten rid of Hussein then, if he was so evil (which it seems irrefutable that he in fact is). That does not mean we should have gone off half cocked after him again because someone pissed the US off. I would have been ok with this war, if the UN would have agreeed that it was a good idea, and that we had sufficient evidence to warrant it. They didn't, and unless some secret is floating on Capitol Hill somewhere, no one has come out with the reason. Instead, we get Reagan's old cronies to fabricate a nice reason why we again need to pad the pockets of war profiteers like McDonnell Douglas and Lockheed and their current counterparts with the blood of our young men and women - convinced they are doing all of America a favor by laying down their lives for a "just cause", hopefully not your son included.

I hope he comes back safely, and that you calm down your war fervor long enbough to let him be comfortable sharing with you what it was like for him, and how it changed him, how he sees the world differently now that he has been through hell. Please don't rail on him like you do people here, that would be a slap in the face not unlike the one the Vietnam vets got when they came home, only to be spat upon.

Dear Mad Dad 02.Sep.2003 01:36

PHH

Excuse me, but what is the connection between Iraq and terrorism or 9-11? You see, if such a connection existed you might be right, but from what we know, it doesn't.. So if you know what this connection is, tell us, and then perhaps we will join you in supporting the war.

If you do not know what this connection is, then you might reconsider your position on the war. Although no WMD's have been found, we DO KNOW that there is a bunch of oil over there and it has already been sold off. I believe that oil is the real reason we are over there. That is why people like your son are dying, and many innocent Iraquis too.

So far, more than 7,000 innocents have died in Iraq from this war. Their suviving family members and loved one will become the terrorists of tomorrow. That is why we are against the war.

HEY 'MAD DAD'--Answer Up! 02.Sep.2003 08:25

You Were 'In Nam', Huh?

"I WAS IN NAM......"

1. What branch of military service?

2. Rank? Serial Number?

3. Title and Designation of Unit(s)?

4. Tours of duty dates? Dates in country?

5. Date of discharge from military?

note in passing... 02.Sep.2003 11:30

the nose knows

Mad Dad and repsonses to his ignorant ramblings dominate this conversation, instead of people talking about the issues raised in the article. Amazing how he was able to jump in and do that. I question what someone like that is doing here in the first place. I'm afraid he's not what he says he is, and that he has accomplished his objective: derailing any kind of intelligent conversation.

In the case that he is just a "mad dad," your'e not going to win someone like that over to "our side." In the case that he is NOT, better to talk about those angry wives protesting in Georgia. They make me think there is some hope.......

History 02.Sep.2003 11:30

Kropotkin's Ghost

One of the surest catalysts for revolution is army mutiny..... Here's hoping for a red and black October!