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PPRC News Blackout?

Why no PPRC announcements or event coverage on Portland IndyMedia?
There was violence at last Friday's PPRC rally. I didn't see any reports here on IndyMedia. Why is this? I wasn't there but I know that local contributors were in attendance.

I don't recall seeing any PPRC items on the newswire for some time, although I could have missed things. Although the Friday PPRC rallies are ongoing, they aren't listed on the IMC calendar. Any idea why PPRC has not listed their rallies on the calendar?
what do you mean? 03.Aug.2003 22:49

Birdman

Violence? Do you mean someone harming another person. Or is this the definition where property destruction is violence? What happened?

A person was harmed 03.Aug.2003 23:04

Chet Huntley

I heard that an aggressor got one the the folks in the rally in a choke hold and hurt him. For once, the cops were nowhere to be seen. Funny coincidence.

friday report 03.Aug.2003 23:21

birdie

Quoting from another source:

Just so you hear if first from one of the participants in the Friday afternoon rally and march ...

There was a pretty significant attack on the PPRC peace rally and march participants Friday at Pioneer Courthouse quare. There were minor injuries (lacerations, bruises, a previous injury was opened up and bleeding pretty badly), but none serious (as far as I could tell).

What was different about today's harassment and ultimate assault was that it involved planning and organizing by several people working in concert. As we experienced last week (from a different heckler), a single person started
>aggressively harassing our rally as soon as we started. Several very courageous people tried to isolate him from our group, but he aggressively pushed into our circle and was yelling insults and obscenities at us. After a few minutes, we moved out on our march. (The person who was harassing us last week was identified as being present among the crowd that was standing close by, the crowd that this week's 'counter-protestor' was a part of.)

When we returned, about eight or nine young men were standing side-by-side blocking the usual path that we take back into the square, the Southwest corner (Yamhill & Broadway). The drum corps and most of our group went around them to the right, avoiding this rather belligerent, but ultimately ineffective "Maginot Line". Some peace marchers confronted them however, and exchanged heated words. At some point shortly thereafter, the true assault began.

Where I was standing, I could see that the a shirtless man (wearing a camouflage hat) had one of our people in a headlock, what looked like a choke hold, and it appeared to me that he was straining with every fiber of his strength to choke our friend. Several people were trying to pull the shirtless man off, to stop him from choking our friend, but they were failing, and it looked to me that our friend was indeed in very serious distress and could not breath. He was grimacing and it looked like he was in pain. Eventually, one of the peace marchers leapt onto the back of the shirtless man, and that seemed to break up the chokehold. At this point, I called 911, because there was not a single policeman anywhere to be seen.

Eventually, several police officers showed up. Statements were taken from witnesses, and we have been told that the shirtless man and the original instigator (Mr. Yahoo, so called because of his Yahoo.com t-shirt) were cited and barred from the Square for two weeks.

Fortunately, there was a man video taping the incident, and we have several very good witnesses. However, this incident, in conjunction with the harassment from last week, suggests that there is rather more planning involved in this assault than the usual sort of harassment that we've experienced. I would also like to note that one of our previous counter-protestors, "Yosemite Sam", was present, not saying anything, keeping a low profile, but clearly watching what was happening. He then followed xxxxxx and I back to the parking lot, and took down our license plate as we drove off. This is hardly anything extraordinary in the realm of harassment, but it marks an increase for our Friday rallies.

Please do not underestimate the degree of violence that our community is capable of. The people involved in today's assault are people who have been whipped into this level of violence by hate radio, by the criminal US foreign policy, and by the vilification of the peace movement throughout popular culture. The assailants displayed dog tags, indicating that they were servicemen, but we have not verified that.

Some police, hopefully not most, seem to believe that the peace marchers deserve this kind of violence. The officer I spoke with, when asked what he thinks should be done to prevent this kind of assault in the future, responded by saying "What do you expect?" The message was clear: If you're going to take part in peace marches, you should be prepared to be set upon by these kinds of thugs. And a not too veiled message was also that we should not expect the police to do anything to prevent these attacks, other than take witness statements and write up a report. They made no arrests in spite of the fact that the man with the camouflage hat may well have been using a chokehold easily capable of being fatal. They did cite the two men with assault.

In Germany in the 1930s, the marginalized of the community were recruited to attack leftists and those who opposed the Nazis. The same is true of attacks on labor organizers here in the US. In East Timor, it was drug addicts, petty criminals and folks who were otherwise the injured and underclass of the society who were drafted into the militias, their anger
and frustration channeled against the people fighting for independence.

Of course this could be merely a simple case of alcohol mixed with hot, humid weather. But the organization displayed on Friday suggests more. And it will surely be prudent for us to take steps to ensure that our comrades are safe by being out on the street in numbers next Friday, and the Friday after that. If only to show that we will not be intimidated, I ask you
all, please, to consider showing your support for peace by joining us.

Finally, although this was a clear case of several aggressive and belligerent bullies attempting to intimidate and harass us, it is equally clear that we can do better in our efforts to deescalate these conflicts, and to ensure that they do not come to blows. We are not looking for people willing to brawl for peace. We're looking for people who have the courage to face this kind of harassment, but without resorting to behavior that only enflames the conflict. Please consider what you can do to reduce the risk of violence, and increase the effectiveness of our organizing for peace and justice.

For those of you who believe that the PPRC Friday rally is a worthwhile action, for those of you who care about our right to be in the street expressing dissent against our country's criminal wars, please consider coming to the next few Friday rallies.

The matter 04.Aug.2003 01:18

Arch lobo

The matter is under adjudication. The DA's office will be contacted.

Addendum: Choke hold, and knife assault.

PPRC leadership is boycotting indymedia 04.Aug.2003 01:48

indymedia contributor

despite claims to the contrary, PPRC has leadership. it's held by 2-3 white straight middle-aged men. upset about the fact that indymedia is not a news source that can be controlled, and that some people who post here have criticisms of PPRC, they forced a vote at a meeting against using indymedia. they would rather beg for scraps at the corporate media table than announce their events and tell their stories themselves on this people's medium. this move on their part is not inconsistent with the rest of their organizing, which seeks to "reach the mainstream" by means of watering down their message. that is, instead of being honest and strong, they are political and manipulative, and are hoping that those tactics will work to get "good media" for them and increase their numbers and effectiveness. considering the fact that in over a year and a half their core group has not grown and their weekly events are ignored by the corporate media (most of the time), you'd think they'd've caught on to the fact that their tactics don't work. they haven't, though, or don't want to try anything else because it would mean giving up control. the leaders are selfish, egotistical control freaks with spotlight fetishes and starfucking tendencies who are more interested in their own self-aggrandizement and place in history than they are in stopping war or it's causes. it's very sad and very typical. "how may liberals does it take to screw in a lightbulb? none! liberals don't change anything!"

all that being said, the PPRC participant who wrote in the story from last week's events ROCKS! please keep posting! the PPRC events should be treated like news by the people who are involved, and this is the medium to do it. it would be awesome if there was a story here about the weekly rally every week! the fact that the weekly rallies always have themes is one of the positive aspects of them; it's a chance to highlight an important issue that people might not be paying attention to, and an opportunity to further educate.

Stop the name calling 04.Aug.2003 06:35

firetruck

This is not the time to continue some childish debate that began over two years ago. This is a confilict between Alfa male egos at both PPRC and Indymedia. I've seen it from both ends. I'm fed up.

Maybe I'll go find some adults to play with.

A few thoughts 04.Aug.2003 09:24

PDX Citizen

First, thanks to the person who posted this. As fed up as I have been in the past with PPRC rallies, maybe it's time to start attending again. Despite personal differences I may have with PPRC tactics and philosophies. I do believe in solidarity with anyone who is trying to make a positive difference (however ineffectually). I will be there next week if time allows.

Second, don't bother calling the police when people attack you. Call your friends. This is one of the core problems with PPRC. Don't you guys remember who beats you up and pepper sprays you? Hint: It's the cops. Call them and you're only giving them an excuse to move in on you, as you have done at every peace march where you worked with them to corral your friends. Both the dolts who heckle you and the cops are serving the status quo. They don't want things to change, and as long as you bow to either one you will not achieve any change.

Third, indymedia contributor, it's actually "how many liberals does it take to CHANGE a lightbulb? None, liberals don't change anything." But that's cool, I get what you're saying. I agree that there's been a huge problem with mainstream groups courting corporate media and failing to recognize the lack of satisfactory results. There's also been a problem with groups claiming to represent and appeal to "the mainstream" being really ethnocentric and elitist about who counts as "mainstream." Believe me, the corporate media doesn't speak for, or in the interests of, the real mainstream. Alas, they only speak TO the mainstream, and that's what we mush change.

Finally, firetruck, go ahead. Sigh. Your comments have been boring and unenlightened so far, I see no reason to expect any change from you. And the alpha male stereotype is really tiresome. I am familiar with the inner dynamics of both groups to which you refer, and I can tell you you're way off base. While PPRC is more hierarchical than indymedia, neither has an "alpha male." Both have committed, caring, concerned people trying to work for change, albiet using different methods and seeing the world differently. PPRC people are free to contribute stories to indy, but they have often chosen not to, allegedly because they decided not to do so in a huff over some of the coverage they have received here. I don't know whether that's true, but if so, then I agree with indymedia contributor, that they are being control freaks who want to control the media. They can't do that here, but fail to appreciate the fact that they have far less control over the corporate media because they must suck up the scraps thrown to them like uncle toms, hoping for a few more minutes of air time next time.

Again, I don't know if there was ever really a vote not to use indy because it is "too radical" for them -- I only know that has been a persistent rumor. COINTELPRO was always good at spreading persistent rumors, though.

Who would assault protesters? 04.Aug.2003 09:32

xyz

Let's see the Promise Keepers come to town and then protesters get beat up. Police are conveniently not present. Hmmm, any connection?

I certainly hope those protesters injured will be filing personal injury lawsuits against those assholes and seeking restraining orders. Personal injury lawyers often work on results, you win then they get paid. If you have your assault on video, there isn't much guesswork involved as to whether you were injured.

People are not allowed to touch other people without their permission. Any non-permitted touching is assault. Basically, you were mugged by assholes.

Get a hold of any photos and video, names of witnesses, which seems easy here on indy, and sue them. If you don't, if they don't have consequences that they can understand, it will get worse for us free speakers.

Question for lawyers out there 04.Aug.2003 09:34

curious

If attacked while protesting is it legal to use personal pepper spray to stop someone from assaulting you?

pepper spray, etc 04.Aug.2003 09:46

ex-pdxer

when you are physically assaulted by someone else, you are allowed to defend yourself. so use the pepper spray, if you want. does someone know if you need a permit to carry personal pepper spray in portland? i can't recall.

a note to the indymedia contributor: referring to pprc types, in the manner you did, as straight, white males, strikes me as engaging in the same sort of disparaging, quasi-discriminatory behavior that you most likely rail against elsewhere....unless of course you don't mind being referred to as an gay anarchist pretending to be a journalist.

To curious... 04.Aug.2003 09:56

Varro

Most certainly....you can use as much force as a reasonable person would believe is necessary to repel the attacker. (Not deadly force, but certainly you can use pepper-spray against an unarmed attacker.)

What if the attacker 04.Aug.2003 10:34

is a cop?

Can you still use pepper spray to defend yourself?

Because if so, then I gotta lotta pepper spray to purchase.

Wake Up!! - Read this if nothing else 04.Aug.2003 11:24

CommonSense

FACT: PPRC rallies are being harassed and assualted on a weekly basis
FACT: The thousands of peace supporters that do no come out to the rallies are helping make this possible.
FACT: The politically correct nitpicking about PPRC's shortcomings only adds to the problem.
FACT: The politically correct nitpicking about PPRC's shortcomgs are FALSE insofar as there are indeed women in leadership. Also, almost every radical collective in PDX is predominantly white radicals so stop using that bullshit critique.

CALLING YOU OUT: The suggestion that it is NOT important to get out and attend PPRC this Friday 5:00 at Pioneer Square becuase of your bullshit critique aids and abets the proto-fascist harassers, cripples the peace movement and puts the blood on your self righteous politically correct ultra left hands not only the blood of the Iraqi and "coalition" troops and civilians but anyone who gets hurt at PPRC.

NOTE TO THE ULTRA LEFT: If you stand by while the PPRC, largely older women and some differently abled people, are assualted by ruthless thugs, while you sit at Red and BLack and sip your god damned coffees you are as guilty as the middle class assholes who ignore the peace movement.

Follow the faces 04.Aug.2003 11:59

jimmy olsen

Where are the photos? You guys need to photograph and distribute pictures of those thugs far & wide. Such an effort would help to identify the culprits, giving them names & addresses. There's nothing like the light of day to expose low-life and put them in awkward positions (also, photos come in handy if one decides to try the legal system)

To CommonSense 04.Aug.2003 12:25

Observer

Some points. first, stop using the phrase "politically correct." It just makes you look like you don't know who you're talking to. Second, so does the phrase "ultra left." Third, you're right that we all need to show solidarity against the attackers in this situation. Whatever the shortcomings of PPRC, and I have a few that I could name, we do need to stand together.

I plan to come to the next PPRC rally, but I have a few requests. First, please don't call the cops if you get heckled, because I don't want to get beaten up. We can handle the assaultive hecklers with numbers, but it's hard to fend off armed, armored robo-cops with guns, chemical weapons, and laws that say they can hit us but we can't hit them or try to defend ourselves against them. Second, if I do come, please don't tell me what to wear. Most especially, don't try to tell me why you think I don't need a mask. I've lived here a long time, and trust me, I know what fascism looks like. This is it. I will wear a mask as long as the cops wear riot gear and burn the constitution. I will wear a mask as long as the state claims the authority to round people up and throw them in dungeons without cause. I will wear a mask as long as the JTTF keeps files on political dissenters.

Third, please, no peace cops. We can make our own decisions.

Finally, please remember that solidarity is a two-way street. We will stand by you because it is wrong to oppress you as you struggle to remind people that we are at war, and war is wrong. Remember that the next time the corporate media or the police state try to sell us out and split us apart by demonizing the black bloc or any other faction of the movement. The cops and the corporate media lied about the steel bridge, and you ate it up. The corporate media and the cops lied about the police riots in the weeks after the bombing started, and you let them. I will stand by you now, because it's the right thing to do. Please remember this when the right thing to do is your decision to make.

Both ways? 04.Aug.2003 12:51

Observer

I knew sooner or later there would be a situation where the protesters would be wondering where the cops are to come to THEIR rescue. I have read time and time again on this web site about how our society doesnt need cops and that we can protect eachother blah, blah, blah. Now here you are saying things such as "can I carry chemical weapons in case things get out of hand?" "Where were the cops?"

Which is it, you want cops to protect you when things get out of hand OR you want to force things to get out of hand and criticize the cops?

you taunt them while they ride their bikes along side you and then you chastize them for not being there when YOU need them.

You call them names when the'yre there, you call them names when they're not.

Spoiled brats you are.

I agree with Observer! 04.Aug.2003 13:13

StevetheGreenanarchist

I think that it is sort of disingenuous of the PPRC to criticize anarchists for not showing solidarity with them.
The PPRC has made it well known in the past that they do not welcome certain "elements" in their marches if they disagree with their tactics.
But to be fair (Unlike some of the local Portland anarchists), I do not buy into this divisive bullshit about who is really making a difference and who isn't.

We could argue all day long about the failure of liberal reforms or the somewhat disjointed and unrealistic goals of local anarchists, but it serves no purpose beyond further dividing people who have more in common than they do that is different.

The truth is that the world is made up of very diverse individuals! Coupled with that diversity is the fact that all activists (liberals and anarchists alike) are at different evolutionary places in their own personal growth that may limit their understanding of the big picture. This manifests itself with the petty bickering that is really nothing more than a result of ego that is displayed in these ridiculous posts.

If reform or even revolution is ever to be possible in this corrupt bought and sold system, it will happen if and only if diverse groups with unique perspectives come together despite their philosophical differences. Some people feel comfortable holding a sign and letting their presence be known in our city by reminding everyone that they oppose our current fascist regime. Others feel that "direct action" is a more effective means in getting that point across.

Our own countries history clearly shows that both things can be effective and both things are critically important in combination to furthering progressive ideals. Our history also shows us that when we are divided, they win.

So I say, fuck these assholes that are trying to flex their muscles by intimidating liberal old ladies who want many of the same things we do.
I think a PPRC representative needs to make it clear that they welcome support from all different affinity groups. Following that, I would love to see the Black block down there watching out for the liberals.
Then we would see how brave these "good Mercan" jingoists are who like to act tough with pacifists.

To "observer" 04.Aug.2003 13:28

the REAL observer

You obviously don't know who you're talking to. The point of this site is to give people their own voices, to tell their own stories, to publish their own news. This is because, as most of us realize, the corporate media lies. So in other words, many different people with many different views publish articles from many different perspectives here.

You either haven't been following along for long, or else you have completely missed the nuances here. Someone from PPRC was asking where the police were when they were assaulted. PPRC tends to be fairly middle-of-the-road, with a liberal core. PPRC often works with the police. They believe the cops are their friends, and the corporate media are their friends. Therefore, it was a rude surprise to find no cops around when they were actually needed, instead of just hanging around trying to contain people as usual. PPRC people don't "taunt" the police, at least not that I've ever seen. And they don't call them names. As I said, they still believe the cops can be worked with.

You, on the other hand, seem to be trying to address your pointless non sequiter to the radicals. It is the radicals, not PPRC, who believe we don't need cops and can protect each other. And they haven't changed their minds about that. Go back and read the thread above. You will see liberal people asking where the police were, and radical people saying not to call the police because they are the most violent aggressors in the city. This tends to be one of the many divergences in philosophy and tactics between liberals and radicals. I'm not passing judgement on either, simply pointing out what you have obviously missed.

As for your implication that criticism of the police is unwarranted, you haven't been in the streets friend. Try to actually enjoy some of those "freedoms" you were taught to appreciate in grade school, and you will find out that we really live in a police state. It's not such a friendly place after all, and it's not "taunting" protesters making it that way. Some day, maybe you will have a cause that you believe in. You will stand up for that cause, and you will discover what we have known all along: Fascism lives and breathes on the streets of America.

I don't agree with observers 2nd post! 04.Aug.2003 13:30

StevetheGreenanarchist

While I agreed with Observer about certain observations that illustrate the petty divisiveness on the left, I don't agree about the observations about the cops.

Obviously being a police officer is a difficult job.
Obviously we need police officers.

But just as obvious is that many of these characters allow their own personal opinions of protestors cloud the way in which they administer justice.
The fact that liberals point out the absence of the Portland police when these cowardly idiots attempt to intimidate pacifist protestors, does not for one minute validate the criticism that observer laid out in the last post.

I do not see criticism of the assholes on the Portland police force as being contradictory to pointing out their absence when protestors are being threatened. A police officers job is to enforce the law, regardless of their personal opinions.
The Portland police department has time and time again shown their personal hatred of protestors through excessive violence and unwarrented arrests. Furthermore, they have exhibited a pattern of behavior that runs contrary to the sworn oath of a police officer.

To try and suggest that if you criticize their fascist behavior that you therefore can not expect their help, is in a word "stupid".

to stevethegreenanarchist 04.Aug.2003 14:25

CMI

This is confusing, because there is apparently more than one "observer" in this string. But I think you are referring to the middle comment, that ends in "spoiled brats." Yes, I disagree with that ridiculous post too, mostly because, as the next comment says, it's lumping together different groups of people who are saying different things. Many liberal people think the police are worth working with, and want them there when they need them. Most radicals do not. The middle observer missed that point.

I'm just curious about one thing, though, Stevethegreenanarchist. What do you mean, "obviously we need police officers"? Aren't you an anarchist? Because no anarchist I know would make a statement like that. Why do we need police officers? I mean, I agree with your other comment, that "obviously being a police officer is a difficult job." I even agree that many cops are probably not bad people when you get to know them. I certainly would never advocate doing anything to hurt them, except when they are hurting us. Yes, I can recognize that most police officers simply have a different philosophy than I do about their job, and I can acept that most of them think they are doing good. I can also hold them accountable for not seeing the true nature of their jobs, for not speaking out and refusing to participate in the kind of behavior all too common in this city -- like beating and hurting people who are only trying to speak out.

I just wonder why you think we need police officers, and why you think that should be "obvious"? I can't think of a reason we, the people, need the police. I can only think why the PBA and corporate America need the police. (Because there are more of us than there are of them, and sooner or later we will realize it. They need the police to keep us terrorized and in our places, so we will keep selling our blood to the capitalist machine and keep the ruling class living in luxury off our toil.)

To Steeve the green anarchist 04.Aug.2003 14:29

Observer (the real one)

Hey! Thanks for your comments. Don't worry, that 2nd post wasn't me. I'm not that schizo. I don't know who else is using this name, but it was weird to use it right after my post. Guess it's time for a new handle.

For crying out loud ... 04.Aug.2003 14:41

... pepper spray is cheap ...

... and you don't need a permit! Cans are available for your protection at Andy & Bax (324 SE Grand Ave), among other stores.

I would hope that every effort would be made to prosecute the individuals, to demonstrate that this kind of behavior isn't OK. If there is anything that discourages me the most about progressive movements, it is how freaking helpless people are and the lack of actual goal-oriented action.

Wanna be Yoda 04.Aug.2003 15:45

zzzzz

What's with the yodaspeak, fake observer?

GreenAnarchist, thank you for clarifying for dumbass that noting an absence of police has nothing to do with wanting/not wanting them to uphold the law. It only illustrates the selectivity with which the police seek to enforce the law, deciding for themselves who will and will not be cited/arrested.

protest while you still can 04.Aug.2003 16:16

ges

There are very few ways to make a difference in corporate America... I believe the most important "power" that we have is in the dollar and how we to choose to spend. The only other thing we can do is to make a real physical presence. I know that the PPRC has had problems in the past and suffered from an internal split. Many of those who compromised the spirit of the group have moved on and taken resources with them. Because of this there are a few dedicated members who are trying to start from scratch, make some noise, and participate in democracy. The fact that some of us are out there EVERY week is extraordinary. How many people are really dedicated to making their voices heard? I don't see too many. I hear people say, I'll get back out in the streets when Bush invades Syria or Iran... what about the fact that war is constant. We are always at war. Protest that and do it while you still can.

A Portland Police Officer was heard to say 05.Aug.2003 00:17

firetruck

"Why don't you call Vera and have her come down and fix this mess, shes the one who gave the order."

Isn't that interesting. It would seem that Vera herself gave the order for the police to stay away from Pioneer Square. I'm not sure what gofer for the political "right" gave the order for the Pioneer Square police to stay away.
Such matters can be investigated.

(Do I here the sound of shredders shredding?)

It is not hypocritical to complain about the police and still expect protection. It is every citizens right in a free society (what there is left of it.) I guess Vera doesn't think this is true.

I guess Vera doesn't think.

Nothing more than American Brownshirts 05.Aug.2003 05:34

Zapatista

These thugs who attacked the PPRC protestors are the American equivalent of fascist Brownshirts nothing more.

And like most Brownshirts they do not respect anything but force. While I don't advocate attacking these thugs, PPRC protestors need to get organize to deal with these pigs.

That means have a people there who are trained and ready to handle these punks when they make their move.

It means having video cameras ready to take their picture and capture every act they engage in.

IT means protestors getting their licencse plates numbers, and any other form of information you can get to identiy these fucks.

And finally, it means having lawyers and legal teams ready to sue their asses and pursue other forms of legal response to make these guys pay--monetarily, legally, and criminally--for their brazen assaults.

Debates about who is more politically effective have their time and place. However, when antiwar activists are attacked, you need to come together and defend yourselves.

Stop bickering. Get organized. And Fight the hell Back.

interesting 05.Aug.2003 07:35

bob

interesting how upset we get when someone else decides to block our roads to protest us.

i've sat on many, many blockades. i'll sit on many more, i'm sure.

but this has got me thinking about the idea that maybe, just MAYBE, soft blockades of civilian traffic are counterproductive. those shmoes behind the wheel think about us with exactly the same irritation that we think about the brownshirts that blocked the pprc march. in this sense, the only effective blockade would be one that effects our direct targets.

i just expressed a reasoned, thoughtful idea. i guess it's time for others to bring on the flames.

Reality vs. the visualized anarchist society 05.Aug.2003 07:52

StevetheGreenanarchist

CMI-

Obviously one of the fundamental core beliefs of anarchists is that we reject a centralized authority.
But history shows us that even anarchist political structures include the rule of law.

Contrary to the mainstream view that anarchism is about lawlessness, riots, and complete mayhem in the streets where only the strong survive, this is not an accurate portrayal of an anarchist society. But of course, If the coming revolution in the United States occurs, there will be a transition period where the people will police themselves.
But our current reality is that we live in a structure that is in "transition" and it is unrealistic to think that we can function totally outside of it.

The fact is we do not live in an anarchist society! We live in a police state that dictates the wishes of the power elite and fails to represent the masses. But does that mean that we therefore reject the protections that the rule of law are supposed to provide to "all" regardless of their political philosophy???
Or is it more important to remain true to some fundamental political approach that actually runs contrary to achieving the ends?

If the left will ever come together, it will require that we work both within the construct of our current system, as well as outside of it.
As Craig Rosebraugh said, "Use all the tools in the toolbox".

If I can use their cops against them, I'm all for compromising political principles.

To Steve 05.Aug.2003 11:06

What about The Asshole?

I'm confused, Steve. "Rule of law"? To me, anarchy means we rule ourselves. It means no one has the right to tell us what to do, we take care of ourselves and each other.

Maybe we need to talk about this. Because as far back as anyone can remember, there has always been The Asshole. I mean, there's always been the guy (or an empire, whatever) who wanted to take more than his share at the expense of others. That guy has always used either sheer force and brutality, or "the rule of law" to take it. Build a utopiah, and that guy finds it and tries to enslave its population, take its resources and use it for his own ends. At least, that's my take on this.

So I wonder how we will deal with this after the revolution? I know there's a way, but what is it? This confusion about whether or not to call the cops when something like this happens is a good example. First, for the record, I say never call the cops for anything. Deal with it yourself or call your friends. You're much better off that way. But I do understand why some people would think the police are there to protect them, and would demand that protection. (Not anarchists, though. Anarchists should know better.) Heck, even some of the police think they are there to protect people, and only become aware of the real truth when confronted with it head on. As they will be later this month when the supreme ruling party asks them to once again gas us and beat us and keep us down while his imperious dorkitude visits.

The fact is, most people are vaguely aware of the presence of "the asshole," and think the police and the law are the answer to that. They fail to recognize that it is actually the asshole who has made the laws, the asshole who directs the police to keep us at bay, the asshole who throws us in prison when we ask for our share.

Obviously, then, the police are not the answer, and the law is not the answer. But what is the answer? After the revolution, what are we gonna do about The Asshole?

reply 05.Aug.2003 16:07

indy geek

To answer the original post - PPRC events and coverage do not end up on indymedia because PPRC does not post them there. One person said they were at the meeting where PPRC voted not to use indymedia. That seems to be the case because since that time, PPRC no longer posts announcements up on the site.

re:firetruck "This is a confilict between Alfa male egos at both PPRC and Indymedia" There is no conflict between PPRC and indymedia.

re: CommonSense "CALLING YOU OUT: The suggestion that it is NOT important to get out and attend PPRC this Friday" Hmmm... I saw no such suggestion anywhere in this thread

I would like to see more tolerance on this site for different views and approaches. The idea of indymedia is that it can be a diverse forum for people who seek justice and positive social change. Towards that end, it would be fruitful for more people to refrain from repeatedly criticizing a group they think is too radical or too liberal and leave those people room to use the site.

Also, it would be helpful if posters made more effort to stay on topic. Too often the comments quickly devolve into well worn arguments and conflicts rather than helpfully adding to the original post. Too much energy gets lost this way, and the site loses focus. One can ask oneself, Is this comment I am about to post a useful contribution? Got extra time and energy? Go write a story about one of the many issues in the community that does not get enough coverage here on indymedia.

Common Sense 05.Aug.2003 21:27

Watchman

OK, this thread on PPRC and the harassment they suffered on their last march has taken a dangerous turn. Now you need to have a game theory lesson for your own survival.

The "everybody arm yourselves with pepper spray" is a dangerous escalation of tactics which would not go unnoticed by the PPB Intell boys. They have a set of rules for this game: if no weapons show, let things go, if weapons come out, twist and shout. The rule is simple: the cops will always respond with at least one level more serious a weapon than they are faced with. The cops consider pepper spray used on them from a crowd perfect justification to go to projectile weapons like rubber bullets and pepper balls and even beanbags, not to mention stick weapons.

More important, any officer, individually, that believes that pepper spray is being used on him/her in an effort to make the cop defenseless or vulnerable to an attack has justification to use deadly force. That .45 caliber pistol will end the pepper spray game in a hurry.

So, understand the game BEFORE you get to the playing field.

The bully-boy scenario discussed in this thread is best met with with a superior force of stalwart lads and lassies using superior unarmed fighting techniques. PPRC should see to it that they have such a defense force available and that the defense force can do better than "jumping on his back". The aggressor had both his hands used up trying to choke the PPRC demonstrator and would have been unable to defend himself . One person could have taken him down with a booted snap kick to the shins or an eye gouge or any one of about 20 unarmed fight-ending techniques.

PPRC, you need to appoint a Defense Minister. Do it now, before word of your vulnerability spreads in the streets and the rednecks have a field day at your expense.

The Watchman

to watchman 06.Aug.2003 12:50

watching u too

Listen officer watchman. Thanks for the advice, but you're telling a fib now. Don't fuck with people by telling them the cops' rule is "no weapons show, let things go, if weapons come out, twist and shout." Yeh, that's cute and all, but how many witnesses do we have as to its inaccuracy!!! They don't "let things go" ever. Not ever. No one but them was carrying any weapons last August when that dumbass neanderthal retard came to town, and yet they "twisted and shouted" with the most disgusting reverie. On March 25th, no one but them had weapons. Again, twisting and shouting and embarrassing themselves and polite society. It's sick. Don't be telling me people can protect themselves by not standing up to the pigs. It's not true and you know it. As long as people struggle for the freedoms they naively believe they have as Americans, they will be beaten, harrassed, arrested, or even shot by the pigs.

Go back to talking into your little tape recorder and bouffing your hair "watchman." We see you too.