Black Bloc Call to Action August 20-22

who is we?
who is making this call?

or, maybe a better question for the sake of security culture is, how many people are supporting this call?

What about the Portland Business Alliance - they do more damage to our city than some puke from Texas.

For those of you interested, there's a spokescouncil meeting being held at PSU in the cafeteria at noon on Saturday August 2nd. This will hopefully be a means of coordinating actions of affinity groups and other protesters and of accomplishing other organizing tasks.
~ONI

First of all I do not want the comment section after articles to be reserved for mudslinging, but I personally feel that something must be said about the comments made by the "average" portland citizen. The comment starts out with a misleading use of a quote. The anarchist other does not say that these actions may "reduce our government to bits and pieces" but rather "take bits and pieces out of Bush's or government power". And by the way this is possible are tradition of resistance has made profound changes in power relations for anarchists and anti-authoritarians in Europe specifically in Greece. The average citizen goes on to try to discredit the "black Block" by saying that they remind him of a sadistic boy that kills bugs because it gives him a sense of power. This part of the comment reveals that the author knows little information about anarchist ideas. Governments, corporate entities, and the rich, are the ones that delight in having power over other things many anarchist actions are about taking power away from these entities and placing it back into the hands of people and communities... Finally the Portland citizen goes on a somewhat incoherent rant about "terrorists" and then he reveals a little bit about himself by saying that he/she will be laughing his ass of to see activists in jail, now that is truly sadistic. This reminds me of the sadistic attitude frequently taken by police officers, mmmm that is a funny idea, a cop trying to discredit activists and ruin indy-media, how about that.

First support.

Talking to ACAN/ACA folks as to whether or not they would support this proposal. Its been on ACAN's listserves and I've been getting back some email as to what people are feeling. As a network there hasn't been a decision, and the debate seems to be that as a network it would not be able to support the Call to Action, but it seems that a lot of people would support, or in fact are, individuals who feel empowered to support the call and to go out and do it.

ACA basically said that it would be taken to there meeting and would be decided on then. No word back until Saturday for that though.

For other groups? FNAC could support a call to action but there not really started yet so it wouldn't be to practical. But in general there aren't to many actual open anarchist groups in town, ACA not even being an Anarchist group just Anti Capitalist, to support a call to action. I know a ton of people who are definitely coming out and organizing around it though.

second regular folks and the message.

The main message of this event is that we don't want Bush/the government coming here. We want to empower all groups as much as possible to come out, ALL GROUPS not just anarchist or anarchist affiliated. We feel that the best situation would be a strong black bloc WITH a strong crowd supporting it and its actions. Will the crowd be mostly anarchist? Very doubtful. We want everyone to come out and support a diversity of tactics. We want people who are going to be organizing campaigns for Dean, or angry voters, or the green party, or whoever is angry at bush/government to come out. If we can achieve a large enough crowd of people, with large enough groups of people interested in direct action being supported by that crowd, we believe we can achieve almost any goal we set ourselves to that day. So don't feel ostracized by this call to action, we really do support all people coming out to this event. Every person who comes to it will find a place where they will feel comfortable (as long as the police don't make them feel uncomfortable, for whatever reason) so that we can truly use diversity of tactics. Remember solidarity and understanding, if you want to wave a sign go for it, if you want to do other stuff go for it, were all here for the same reason even if we believe in different strategies to accomplish are/our goals.

By the way.

ACAN - Anarchist Community Action Network
ACA - Anti Capitalist Action
FNAC - the Federation of Northwest Anarchist Communists

I must see the swimmy fish or the funny dog

Re: regular folks - Thanks yElp, that was well put. I think it's important to get as many people out there as possible and let them know that protesting at whatever level they feel comfortable is perfectly acceptable (of course, the more disruptive to W the better). Shrub's approval ratings are "supposedly" still rather high (although I have no idea who they could possibly be polling), so we need masses to show that the count is false.

Ideally, Bush's arrival in Portland will be accompanied by thousands - no, tens of thousands - of peaceful protesters from all over the Pacific Northwest . . . at least as many that participated in the anti-war marches prior to the bombing of Iraq - engulfing the streets intended for the motorcade, and filling the streets beneath whatever luxury hotel he intends to stay in.

Ideally, the protest will be of such a massive scale that it will function - in terms of establishing progressive political momentum and as a spark cast into the flame of an evolving, global political consciousness - as the civil disobedience equivalent of "the shot heard 'round the world."

My fear is that this ideal will not be realized, for one reason: The apparent intention of a few self-styled "anarchists" to go downtown and basically raise hell, to damage property, and to provoke police officers into taking actions that they can complain about for the next few weeks.

This is a fool's game. No one wins.

By any measure, the Bush White House represents a truly repugnant element within the right-wing ruling elite. There is no question that it has launched an unprecedented, reactionary assault on all working people everywhere - be they white, black, straight, gay, Democrat, Republican, anarchist, socialist, young, old, male, female, urban, rural, etc.

The vast majority of these masses of people share a noble instinct: A natural revulsion for all violence, whether it's the economic and social violence inflicted by the Bush administration, or the brand of 'black bloc' tactics perpetrated by a justifiably angry young man who wags a bottle or thrusts a clenched fist in the face of a police officer and then howls with a confused mix of indignation and triumph when he is thrown down to the sidewalk and arrested.

Police officers are not the enemy. They are, for the most part, honest and hard-working individuals who would GIVE their life for any one of us, citizens of this city with families and children and who include, surprisingly, principled opponents of the Bush administration. They are not opponents; they are - at a deeper, more fundamental level - allies.

I hope that the more responsible and thoughtful elements within the anarchist community will speak to this issue and emphasize the absolute, vital importance of non-violence. Do not harm the police. Do not threaten or insult them. Do not provoke them. Do not even shout at them.

If we must shout - and we must - save your oral outrage for Bush; We should confront the actual steward of capitalism, the immediate perpetrator of the crimes that are organically linked to our present economic and social order. We should not rumble with public safety workers who must punch a time clock and log a 10-hour shift along with the rest of us.

Because if you feel justified throwing a rock through the window of a McDonalds or a Nordstrom today because you don't like what they symbolize, then just remember that it is okay for me to throw a rock through your window tomorrow because I don't like what you symbolize.

Remember that I may not bother to check to see whether you are sleeping on the other side of that window, or whether your children play beneath it. This may not be anarchy's ideal, but it is, in fact, the reality of the game.

Protesters should greet Bush in August in great numbers. We should be everywhere. We should be loud. We should be intense. And we should, we must, every single one of us, act peacefully.

If this is what the front-line, black-shirted, anarchist 'blac bloc' vanguard proposes, stand up and say so and you will have thousands behind you. If not, you'll have hundreds; the rest of us will stay home, and you can spend a few hours in jail fuming about Bush, cops and the apathy of the masses.

I hope the August protest is the largest this city - or Bush - has ever seen. Anywhere.

"Yes, George I really am still alive."

Baseball, hot dogs, apple pie and chevrolet?

OR

Football, hamburgers, cherry pie and ford?

My fear is that this ideal will not be realized, for one reason: The apparent intention of a few self-styled "anarchists" to go downtown and basically raise hell, to damage property, and to provoke police officers into taking actions that they can complain about for the next few weeks.

Several points come to mind:

1. What, exactly, is the intent of the black bloc? When people hear the phrase "black bloc", they tend immediately to think of Seattle and the property destruction during the WTO protests. But I've been to many protests that had a black bloc where there was no trashing of property. So it seems that the intent, or at least the actual outcome, of black blocs is not necessarily limited to property destruction.

2. I'd argue that most property destruction is indeed counterproductive, at least in the context of the likely demonstrations we'll see next month. Just for openers, it's a pass? tactic, one the cops are likely to expect and prepared to respond to. Employing tactics that one's adversary expects is not a winning strategy.

3. Most black bloc members are indeed anarchists, but most anarchists do not take part in black bloc actions.

Note that the question in point one above is of necessity a rhetorical one that shouldn't be answered on Indymedia at this time unless you want the State to know what you're cooking up....

J5: ABC
Michael: Easy as...
J5: 123
Michael: Or simple as...
J5: Do re mi
Michael: ABC, 123, baby, you and me girl!
J5: ABC
Michael: Easy as...
J5: 123
Michael: Or simple as...
J5: Do re mi
Michael: ABC, 123, baby, you and me!

one thing i think is very important to keep in mind: dont demonize and dehumanize the prez (and the cops, and other various forms of authority) because that's what they've done and do. look at the war lets demonize sadamm hussein and dehumanize the iraqi people so our case for war is a bit easier to digest. if we demonize/dehumanize the prez and his minions (cops included) we shoot ourselves in the foot. truth is ( as far as i can see anyways) dubya, for all his might and power and idiocy, isa human being, a man, just like you and me on the basic of levels. each person walks their own path in life, no matter how many intersections, unfortunately, bush's life involves the people of the united states and the world, and must carry out his path in life, just like all of us do, whether we are concsious of it or not. to dehumanize the prez/ the MAN is to make a separation, and making separations like that is the reason we've been at war for thousands and thousands of years. war is really nothing new you know. some call it one love, the rastas mostly. one love means, just that, one love, all are included in one love, e v e r y b od y is included, even the MAN. now dont get me wrong, please, i 've never liked the guy, or what i know of him as a president at least, i dont like his administration, i dont like his war, i dont like anything he's done and not done for this country, for you and me. its my right, and yours as well to agree or disagree, and he needs to remember that, if he runs into a city full of people who dont like him and are gonna let him know loud and clear, he's gotta accept that. of course he wont, he'd rather be a dictator so it would be so much easier to shut everyone up, and various other reasons of course. so give em hell portland, just pl,ease be mindful i guess is the right word, the man thinks he's got it all, when really, he's missed the whole point, cant help but feel sorry for him honestly, as wicked as he and his cronies may seem, he's a man a human being, as hard as that may be to believe, who the hell am i to judge anyone? who are you ?

God forbid we should ever think for ourselves

I would go to the links on the original post for some of the tactics and reason for a black bloc.

I wrote out something long but than realized it can be explained kind of simplistically.

1. Bloc can be used for these things: Stopping police repression on non violent protestors, using direct action to stop figureheads, deterring police from violence with non violent protestors (slightly different from the above), stepping up or escalating an event that has dropped its energy, and having a body of people with a fight to win strategy of direct action.

2. I don't think that destroying a campus would be a successful tactic either. I don't think that anyone is advocating it at this point.

3. True. I would argue that at times a lot of the black blocs are not a majority anarchist either to though.


Tom Bee -

"My fear is that this ideal will not be realized, for one reason: The apparent intention of a few self-styled "anarchists" to go downtown and basically raise hell, to damage property, and to provoke police officers into taking actions that they can complain about for the next few weeks. "

1. The "anarchist"s would have to go from N Portland and walk a hell of a long ass way to get to downtown. Simply something that should be noted not an actual debate point btw.

2. property destruction already noted. Argument 2 of the above.

3. I wrote another long piece here. Than I realized its the entire debate on whether CD is appropriate or direct action is appropriate. I don't believe that debating that will be helpful to anyone here. It wont answer any questions about this event, except to remember that were ENCOURAGING A DIVERSITY OF TACTICS and WERE ENCOURAGING ALL FOLKS TO COME OUT, WHATEVER THEIR TACTICS MAY BE.

Remember : using CD will provoke cops. That's one of the points of it. So when you describe how the police are going to complain about the black bloc, you need to remember that for them your in the same category. Your still performing illegal acts and there still going to target and arrest you.

Moving on.

"Police officers are not the enemy. They are, for the most part, honest and hard-working individuals who would GIVE their life for any one of us, citizens of this city with families and children and who include, surprisingly, principled opponents of the Bush administration. They are not opponents; they are - at a deeper, more fundamental level - allies. "

I tend to not agree. Tell that to Kendra James. The police do not love me. the police do not care for me. I long ago realized this. As a white activist, I have only started to feel that oppression and control that the police use on a daily basis in the communities of color within are city. Its only the tip of the iceberg to. I'm not going to address the anti cop vs. cop argument here at all. It doesn't need to be expressed if were truly going to have a diversity of tactics. If people feel the need to achieve there goals one way or another than I have no need to argue with them about it. I wont yell at you or grab you and drag you down if I see you doing CD and I feel that I disserve the respect and solidarity that you wont do the same.

???If this is what the front-line, black-shirted, anarchist 'blac bloc' vanguard proposes, stand up and say so and you will have thousands behind you. If not, you'll have hundreds; the rest of us will stay home, and you can spend a few hours in jail fuming about Bush, cops and the apathy of the masses.???

voice#1

You are pathetic if you are gonna stay home and hide cause some kids might make a bit o ruckus. That is the way to show some dedication and stand up to Bush. You want to control everything and if it doesn't go exactly how you want, you aren't gonna come out to play.

Well, I'll be out there regardless of what the Black Bloc does cause I have something to say to Bush and if you are serious, you will be too (btw, the bloc did nothing like you suggest the last Bush protest a year ago)

voice #2

Have you ever heard of the word ?democracy? Why can't there be some diversity of tactic, opinion, belief amongst your fellow citizens. Your interest ought to be in expressing your tactics, opinions and beliefs for yourself. If you prefer to complacency there are a thousand justifications all equally tepid and cowardly.

"Diversity of tactics" is just another bullshit phrase for "I'll do whatever I want and you can't stop me."

I am serious, and I do plan to be there, regardless. I am expressing my view of tactics, as you suggest: my view is that violence of any kind should not be a tactic. My only point was to observe that the potential for a "ruckus," whether it's instigated by a handful of participants or the result of police officers who over-react in the heat of the moment, has the unintended and self-defeating effect of diminishing the numbers of citizens who will turn out. I hope anarchists will keep this in mind, just as I hope that they will turn out in great numbers. We're all in this together.

Anarchists of Portland, organize and plan to promote anarchy!

Huh?

"Anarchy" isn't about creating chaos. It's principles lean more towards eliminating hierarchy and other forms of oppression. It's entirely possible to have organization without hierarchy. There's no oxymoron.

I have studied the history of anarchism, its literature and writers. I agree with you that it is possible to have organization without hierarchy, and I agree this is a worthy and noble goal. But the theory and principles of anarchy notwithstanding, in actual practice, "chaos" seems to be the expressed intent of a few at some of these protests. I am saying: This is self-defeating and not constructive in any sense, politically or otherwise.

The theories of anarchism are like a leaky umbrella useless precisely when it rains-Leon Trotsky

IN RESPONCE TO Tom Bee.
You are very wrong.
Stop thinking of anarchy as another set of theorys and principles, Anarchy isnt about creating a new more inproved world order or a better, "free-er" set of rules to live by. Anarchists place a high priority on liberty, desiring it both for themselves and others. They also consider individuality -- that which makes one a unique person -- to be a most important aspect of humanity. They recognise, however, that individuality does not exist in a vacuum but is a social phenomenon. Outside of society, individuality is impossible, since one needs other people in order to develop, expand, and grow. For anarchists, real wealth is other people and the planet on which we live.
Also, honouring individuality does not mean that anarchists are idealists, thinking that people or ideas develop outside of society. Individuality and ideas grow and develop within society, in response to material and intellectual interactions and experiences, which people actively analyse and interpret. Anarchism, therefore, is a materialist theory, recognising that ideas develop and grow from social interaction and individuals' mental activitys. As we have seen, "an-archy" implies "without rulers" or "without (hierarchical) authority." Anarchists are not against "authorities" in the sense of experts who are particularly knowledgeable, skillful, or wise, though they believe that such authorities should have no power to force others to follow their recommendations In a nutshell, then, anarchism is anti-authoritarianism.
Anarchists are anti-authoritarians because they believe that no human being should dominate another
someone stop me if im wrong. bt also...
sometimes you just have to fuck shit up...

UNITE
*
RESIST

I am not wrong in my main argument: The numbers that turn out to protest Bush's visit WILL be diminished if enough people think there is a good possibility of there being a "ruckus" perpetrated by a few. This is not idle speculation on my part; it is a fact, grounded in objective reality.

It is in everyone's interest - including those who regard such events as an opportunity to "fuck shit up" - that participation this month is as large and broad as possible. I hope this is a point we can all agree on.

ok.

yep.

What is being forgotten here is that the black bloc is a tactic...we all go about using tactics daily and they differ within each situation and person...some may play a part in civil disobediance and that is there choice. If you feel uncomfortable at a protest then work on finding a way of protesting in which you feel comfortable. Breaking windows doesn't solve much but it does get media attention, it may not be positive but it may urge the masses to question. Whether you are writing letters or throwing molotov's you are revolting against a player in tyranny and I am sure the founding fathers would be proud...

realize rebel revolutionize

Aside from the Oakland debacle, recent responses to protests are generally to arrest everyone in sight, journalists, legal observers, etc., and amass hundreds and hundreds of people who are immobilized in cells. I'm guessing the po pos in your area won't try the spray again . . . although, anything is possible.

Like Che says, in urban areas, groups of 3 or 4 are ideal.

A pickup that can dump large pieces of furniture around the city . . .

Wheelchairs . . . the large motorized kind . . .

the wolf urine . . .
 http://www.predatorpee.com/new_wolfpee.html

don't know if they use horses much in your area . . .

and as far as the 'diversity of tactics arguments' .. . . literally smashing corporate symbols is vitally important and those who must engage in this know it already. Newspapers go crazy on it because they know they're next.

just ignore them and do whatever you *know* you have to do.

So far, this rocks.

If Bush actually shows, with this much advance notice, he's a LOT more of a moron than anyone imagined . . .

do not fight man, fight the society that has created man

I wonder tom, were you at the last bush visit?

I sure was. And guess who were the angriest, most violent part of the crowd?

Black bloc? Nope. Regular folks.

REGULAR FOLKS! I remember an older womyn (40's - 50's) say when the black bloc had stopped in front of the cops, that they should of pressed on and continued through the cop line. I don't know if you were there, but when the black bloc pushed the cops back they weren't by themselves, the entire protest had followed after them. I don't know if that will be a wise decision this time to push cops back but you should understand that your not talking for anyone but yourself. A lot of regular folks are really, really angry about bush and aren't comfortable in taking a back seat, when the cops are feeling like they need to resort to violence.

Should we be automatically violent? Hell no! But should we disregard the anger and passion folks have for bush? No. Neither. but we should encourage a diversity of tactics so we don't assume things about people.

A good point is raised though. I think that accountability for folks is really important and should be addressed. I feel that people need to understand why people did certain actions. Otherwise people will be left in the dark and will have no idea why anyone did anything, except for what the corporate media tells us.

Thanks Tom Bee!

I have been holding my breath since we started organizing a protest against Bush. Praying that the little bandana'd trenchcoat kids would NOT try to take this over. Praying that THE PEOPLE......all the people will feel safe and free to come out and express their outrage about the Bush Junta.

And THE PEOPLE (as in the majority) will not come out to protest if the Black Bloc Anarchists show up.

And there we have it. The anarchists will have shut down freedom of speech once again. Because it isn't really in the order of things to push things so far that rubber bullets and pepper spray and utter chaos has to result. And there aren't 1000s of citizens who are willing to get in the middle of a war zone to tell Bush to fuck off.

And I and the many other THOUSANDS of people who would have showed up ,........and who would have made a clear, concise statement to Bush and to the rest of this country that we have had enough of the warmongering and the trashing of our constitution and our economy WILL NOT HAVE THAT OPPORTUNITY.

I am no longer on the protest rolls for the August protest.

I was soooooooo fearful going down to my first protest before the Invasion last spring. So fearful that the 'violent ones' who don't seem old enough to have ever paid any dues in this society would ruin it. To my delight, the 30,000 people who did show up did so in spite of the Black Bloc. The Black Bloc showed up and looked a little foolish going against and through and around the route of the people's march.....but all turned out well.

But this time, the black bloc group isn't quite as outnumbered by THE PEOPLE.......and with those statistics.....violence cannot be curbed. Cause I believe it was the extraordinary numbers of peaceful protesters that curbed violence in Feb and Mar NOT the police. And we the peaceful protesters don't have the numbers for this protest.

What do I have to say about that? SCREW YOU for making it impossible for me and 1000s of others to speak out. Get a job......help your parents more......read some Ralph Waldo Emerson.......and GROW UP! Come out to work for peace and justice when you know what that is.

This just totally SUCKS!

I

You wrote: "I feel that people need to understand why people did certain actions. Otherwise people will be left in the dark and will have no idea why anyone did anything, except for what the corporate media tells us. "

I don't need to know why you guys went ape wild crazy and turned our fine city into a war zone. I don't need to know why you shattered store windows and otherwise caused a nightmare to occur in Portland.

I KNOW why. You are angry. A lot of people are angry. But had there not been 1000s of peaceful protesters there, your violence would not have gotten out of hand.

And I conclude that the Black Bloc crowd USES peaceful, restrained and civilized people who are exercising their 1st amendment rights and right to assemble to FUEL your anger and to USE gratuitously as COVER for uncivilized behavior.

As a peaceful protester, I will not let you use me in this counter and unproductive manner. I also have no intention of getting whacked in the head with a billy club simply because you guys cannot control yourselves. Even in the March 2003 protest when you guys had your own little march and no violence ensued.......You guys are scary fucking bunch of creeps in the vein of the Columbine boys. I don't know what rocks you hide under during non-protest days -- but I am sure you aren't part of civilized society.

Forgive my vitriol -- I am so friggin pissed off that you have popped up again at one of the most CRUCIAL times to peacefully protest Bush. You have shut down free speech yet again.......thanks a fuck of a lot.

SAVE us your "rationalizations" for poor breeding and no doubt years of poor nutrition.

...aren't we a happy crew; being 'responsible' to murderous thugs in power, dutifully paying our taxes, so some poor bastard in the 3rd world gets a bullet in the head, all the while complimenting ourselves on our 'maturity'... i'm sure the folks on the pointy end of the stick are really impressed with our nobility and the efficiacy of our methods of 'protest'. but what the hey, standing in solidarity with the oppressed, letting them do the dying, fighting an empire WE finance, that's the american way. if there is ever is a 'War Crimes Tribunal' judging liberals and progressives, we're all gonna look like 'good germans'...

people, you are all so sensitive. Be there Black Bloc or not, if you disagree with BUSH you should freakin be there. What are you scared of more? rights being taken away daily, a leader causing unnecessary wars, or some pepper spray and a jail visit for a few hours? WHOOPTEDOO, show some courage and PROTEST THE CRAP OUT OF THIS GUY. get off yer lazy ass, and make people SEE us! otherwise when you are sitting in a concentration camp later or living in a ghetto, dont come crying to the black bandana'd PEOPLE and they are not all KIDS.

some have paid their dues, and that is why they are there. and you should be there as well black bloc or not.

I can only hope that the majority of the comments here are straight cointelpro. Otherwise, the majority of people here are pathetic.

Blame the black bloc for police violence? How classic. Anyone at the last Bush protest? The police attacked unprovoked - as usual. Does anyone realize how pathetic it is to displace the blame from the police and put it on your allies? When have the black bloc ever been violent? Anyone see any molotov cocktails being thrown? Even any rocks? Oh, I forgot - the media hyped steel bridge incident - where protestors walked with a plastic and paper sign into a police line. Of course the police all had guns, pepper spray, rubber bullets, batons, and body armor. The protestors WALKED into them with a PAPER and PLASTIC sign. Ooh - the violence. I'd like to see your reaction if there was some real violence. What kind of well-trained domesticated apes are you? Keep on listening to Fox news and voting democrat.

I am a regular Portland citizen. I am unaffiliated with the black bloc, or any other group for that matter.

I personally request that the black bloc come out and join us August 21st.

I can only hope that the majority of the preceding comments are cointelpro. Otherwise, you all will deserve the death squads when they come.

Well there goes the neighborhood!

Maybe I am not seeing it properly but the the Black Block logo seems to show a person about to launch a projectile from a sling shot or, perhaps, a wrist rocket.

If that's your bag baby, count me out. The pigs will win at that game. And for some reason isn't a good way to win friends and influence people.

Tom B, I know you're trying to be helpful, so I will be nice. Yes, it'll be GREAT if many thousands of people show up to show dubya the door. So why are you and "pissed" limiting the pool? Why not go and protest in a way that you feel comfortable, and let everyone else do the same? If you don't feel like breaking windows, then don't. No one will force you to. But why issue edicts about what others can or should do? And why the assumptions about which tactics will be more effective or appeal to more people? I think it would be best to let people do what they feel is right.

As for your assertion that the police are not the enemy, I disagree. They may not, as individuals, be "the enemy," but their job is to protect the state and the status quo (which is killing us), from us. More fundamentally, their job is to keep us down. It's to keep us silent, and submissive, and fearful. It's to keep us from making things inconvenient in any way for those who exploit us, oppress us, use us, imprison us, and send us across the ocean as cannon fodder in their imperialist adventures. You may very well be right, that many police officers are hard working, but they are working for the enemy. And that means they are not, as you say, allies.

I would be the first to admit that many police officers are probably really nice guys when you get to know them. But that doesn't make it any better when their night sticks are coming down on my head, it doesn't make it any easier to breathe when their pepper spray is filling my lungs, and it certainly doesn't make them my allies.

I find it hard to believe that you could have written, "Do not harm the police. Do not threaten or insult them. Do not provoke them. Do not even shout at them." Is this right out of the sheep's training manual? This is ridiculous. Do not harm the police? Don't you mean to tell the police, "Do not harm the people you were sworn to serve and protect"? Because that would make much more sense. You sound like a cop or an apologist when you say that, and I'm sure that's not what you meant to do.

Telling people not to provoke the cops is like telling a woman not to "provoke"a rapist. And why not shout at them for God's sake? WHY NOT? If they're beating people and gassing them in the street for daring to speak out, I'm gonna shout at them. A LOT. Won't you? Whose side are you on?

You know, on August 22nd last year, I saw the most disgusting scene. Hundreds of cops, all dressed in black, full riot gear, no name tags, full arsenal attached securely to their persons, attacked thousands of peaceful people in the streets. There was no provocation. They simply began gassing and shoving at the crowd, after all the people had obediently stopped at the barricade that the police themselves had erected. Hundreds of people were blinded by the gas, people were coughing, gagging, screaming, vomiting, and trampling each other as they tried to escape. It was horrific. As the people attempted to flee, the police drove their cars into the crowd from the opposite direction -- the only direction the people had open to them to escape. They then unleashed rubber bullets into the crowd, terrifying people.

Understandably, people were pissed off. It was an outrage. In an effort to defend themselves, some people surrounded one of the police cars that was ridiculously ramming into the crowd. In self defense, people hit and kicked at the cars. And you know what I saw? A man, probably as well-meaning as you, Tom, yelled, "Don't hit the car!" and proceeded to shove a young woman right into the moving vehicle. She was hit by the rear view mirror as it passed and fell to the ground writhing in pain. See, that's what we don't need. That is not an ally. That is someone so brainwashed by the culture of blind obedience to Authority that he took the side of the fascists against his own people. That is someone who thoughtlessly caused an injury to another human being in order to protect the property of the oppressor from being dented. What the fuck.

What I'm trying to say, Tom, is that sometimes well meaning people miss the whole point and take the side of the oppressor without really meaning to. It makes them dangerous. It's one way the very few can control the many. So maybe, just maybe, you could try not to tell other people not to be mean to the cops and instead be supportive of the people who really need you. Don't be the peace cop, shoving the woman into the moving police car. Instead of helping to apologize for police violence by implying it's the people who need to control themselves and not the cops, instead of excusing people who don't come to the protest by blaming the black bloc, get out there and rise up in the way that feels right to you and let others do the same. Know who your REAL allies are, and help watch their backs.

Do you honestly believe that voting democrat, waving a few signs and marching around downtown is going to change anything? Youre gonna make changes "within the system", yeah right. If your actions truly threatened the ruling class monopoly on power and wealth, violence and force would quickly be applied to stop the threat. Look how strongly your symbolic (but ultimately ineffective) actions are being opposed by the imperial stormtroopers (police), at least those "immature" protesters that smash windows understand on some level that at some point any meaningful change is going to be opposed violently, so they might as well start now.
One of the absurdities of protesting is that your day to day actions are infinitely more meaningful than marching around downtown (or even breaking a few windows) once in a while. As long as you continue to work your job, pay your taxes, burn fossil fuels, eat corporate food imported from abroad you fuel the machinery of capitalism that funnels wealth into the pockets of the few. How many people protesting are really willing to change their lifestyle enough to actually threaten the status quo? You want to make changes? Stop paying taxes, take control of the land and grow your own food, make your own clothes and shelter, stop consuming consumer goods and form communities based on a sustainability and self sufficiency. When the police come with guns to put you back on the treadmill of pushing money uphill to the rich, threaten to march and wave a few signs around and see what good it does you. The only thing those goombahs will understand is if you having enough strength to resist. The ruling elite has a long history of violent opposition to any threat to their wealth, power & privilege. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool.

By the way, what's with naïve hippy? Are you really a hippy? Or some right winger posing as one? Your self deprecating name implies either a deep rooted insecurity or a transparant attempt to portray all "hippies'" as naive. Are you trapped in some 60's time warp that has you using terms like "bag" or "pigs"? in the context which you are using they sound incredibly dated. What "hippy" "lefty" or whatever on this planet actually quotes Dale Carnagie? John Lennon is a little more credible but while sang 'Revolution'" and "Power to the People" he was still a rich SOB who didn't live like he preached it. Most of the people who read and post on indymedia perceive the dopiness of a pop reference like that. The fact that you don't, indicates you are unbelievably clueless (guess that's why you call yourself naïve). You also might want to drop the attitude of false wonderment when stating the obvious. Is anyone actually denying the Black Bloc suggests violence as a resistance tool? Duh. Think about some of these things and maybe your next posting will be sophisticated enough to fool someone.

Hey Questionman, maybe you should concern yourself less by who I am than by what I am saying.

Here it is boiled down without the slang or popular references that seem to offend and confuse you.

1. If you want to go smash windows and shoot missiles at cops I will not be beside or behind you.
2. It is also my opinion that you will not gain any meaningful support OR your desired result by using these actions, at this time.

Confused? Well golly, yer such a smart fella yew got me so goldanged confuscated ah dint' know which wuz up or down. OK guess your partly right, I was a little unsure at first but now I know: You're a complete knucklehead. Thanks for clearing things up. I'm not so confused now.
I guess your "I will not commit or support violence" period, case closed, got nothin else to say philosophy is a complex viewpoint that truly challenges the intellect. No wonder I was confused.
Offended? Well your right about that one, I was offended by the sheer stupidity of your posting. Oh I'm sorry that wasn't very politically correct, let's say "intellectually challenged". Is that better? Let me ask you this: What do you think of state sponsored violence? When the United States uses violence to establish economic and political hegemony against others is that OK? Where is your nonviolent philosophy then? Will you answer that question or just repeat what you said like a robot and act like I'm not "getting it". Do you have opinions? Do you debate? Do you read? I mean something othere than Rush Limbaugh. Do you think for yourself or have a right wing ideology that tells you what to believe? Do you know what thinking is? Before you take offense stop and consider you haven't given me anything to have discussion about. Do you have a philosophy? A belief system of any kind? Bring up an issue and perhaps we could have a spirited debate (even throw a few insults back and forth. All in fun of course). Don't post a lame duck message that's not even remotely challenging and then pretend you pulled off an intellectual hoodwink. You're simply broadcasting your own ignorance and lack of perspective. Are you some right winger just trying to bait someone into directly advocating violence? Then you can point to this thread and say "radicals are all violent"! Wouldn't it be funny if you were some cop hunched over your computer trying to find violent radicals. If you are not one of the previous, why don't you deny it? I'm sure there are law enforcement people monitoring these threads. You know what? They're wasting their time. People posting on indymedia are basically just a bunch of blowhards, letting off steam about their frustration with the world situation but never taking any meaningful action (I'm not excluding myself). People taking direct action aren't posting messages. They're out doing something. I'm just one of those who goes to work, pays my taxes, does my bit to support the system and watches by the sidelines. I don't even go to marches and wave signs around. Anybody wishing to criticize me for hypocrisy and/or apathy feel free to do so. I deserve it, but then again we pretty much all do. I'm not giving up my lifestyle and risking punishment from the state even though I know that murder, torture, genocide and environmental destruction is being committed for these comforts. How many people reading these posting truly are? Perhaps I'm chicken but at least I'm being honest about it. There are people in the forests confronting corporate logging practices directly, there are people going to the Amazon and Africa risking their lives (and sometimes losing them) to help indigenous people under attack from agents of western business interests who wish to steal their land and exploit their labor, these are people truly deserve respect and admiration.
Perhaps it is time to get some information and knowledge that might impact your thinking. I would like to suggest some readings for you:

General Smedley Butler "War is Just a Racket"
Gerard Colby & Charlotte Dennett "They Will be Done. The Conquest of the Amazon: David Rockefeller & Evangelism"
Vandana Shiva "Stolen Harvest"
Ward Churchill "From a Native Son"
David Stannell "American Holocaust"

Is it too much for you to do than to stroll down to a bookstore and pick up some of these books and (gasp) read them? Perhaps then you could dialogue with me in some meaningful way. At least type in some of these names on an internet search and skim through some of the information. You might learn something. I'm not keeping my fingers crossed because you strike me as someone fearful of any information that might challenge your world view. This is typical of conservatives, liberals, progressives and everything between. Personally my view of the world has changed and evolved as I absorb new information and mature. People with rigid ideologies fear people capable of this. It frightens them. Are you willing to confront your fear? I'm not expecting to change anything but who knows, maybe for one brief flash of an instant you may realize that the world is not as you believe.
If you believe you are not stupid, ignorant or knucklheaded then PROVE ME WRONG. Write something of something that shows you have knowledge, wisdom, intelligence and perspective. Pick up one of the books I've suggested and tell me it's crap, but make sure you tell me why it's crap. Suggest something for me to read and maybe I can offer an opinion. Or we can just sit here and sling insults back and forth, it's kind of fun and a good way to vent a little anger but ain't gonna accomplish much.
Maybe my suspicions about you are all wrong, maybe you really are a "naïve hippie" who reads Gandhi and Martin Luther King and thinks they supply the answers to all our problems. Remember this about these people: Gandhi never had a problem with other Indians exploiting other Indians he just didn't like it when the British were doing it. Marting Luther King never had problems with an exploitive system as long as black people were getting a fair piece of the pie. Think about it.