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Gov. Dean's Police State of Vermont

Dean's subversion of the bill of rights
In a 1997 Vt News Bureau interview, Dean admitted his desire to appoint judges willing to subvert the bill of rights. Now the fallout from Dean's appointments are before the US 2nd Circuit at Foley Square, NYC in two outrageous cases. Docket #s 03-7036, 02-6150, 02-6199, 02-6201 One case is being prosecuted by Washington, DC first amendment attorney Robert Corn-Revere against two of Dean's judges for their banishment of a Vermont "citizen-reporter" for life from all state courthouses because he criticized one of Dean's judicial appointees. The other case features Dean's judges violating Double Jeopardy, First Amendment, State law and the State constitution. See Docket No. 99-445 (Vt. Dec. 13, 2000), aff'g, Docket No. 167-1-99 WmCr (Windham D. Ct. Aug. 30, 1999) Both cases have been briefed before the Manhattan Court awaiting oral argument. Also filing a brief in federal court against Dean's appointees is the Thomas Jefferson Center For The Protection of Freedom of Expression.

Below are links regarding Dean's voicing his problem with the Bill of Rights. He constantly complains about "legal technicalities" (i.e. the Bill of Rights) as he did in the June 22 meet the press interview.



A link to a story regarding the courthouse banishment case.


A commentary on Dean's subversion of the public defender system.


Dean's statement on "re-evaluation" of our "civil liberties".


Criminal sentences doubled during Dean's tenure as a result of his appointments. I wonder how many of those serving these inflated sentences were also subjugated to constitutional deprivations at the hands of Dean's Judicial appointees leading to their convictions? How many of those serving inflated sentences were prejudiced by Deans' subversion of the public defender system mandated by the 6th amendment?

In the Meet the Press interview with Dean while discussing the death penalty he stated,

"So I just—life without parole, which we have which I actually got passed when I was lieutenant governor— the problem with life without parole is that people get out for reasons that have nothing to do with justice. We had a case where a guy who was a rapist, a serial sex offender, was convicted, then was let out on what I would think and believe was a technicality, a new trial was ordered and the victim wouldn't come back and go through the second trial. "


Now, according to Dean, the Bill of Rights (ie. legal technicalities) has "nothing to do with justice". In the above quote, is he saying that if someone was unconstitutionally convicted it is better that the government kill them before they can point out the constitutional problems with their conviction?

A further commentary on Dean's death penalty stand.

 link to www.washingtonpost.com

Scott Huminski

But He's Electable 27.Jul.2003 00:03

A Liberal

Say what you like. Dean is the only Democrat who can beat Bush. This is what we should focus on. Everybody has faults if you look at them under a microscope.

But He's... huhn? 27.Jul.2003 01:09

A different Liberal

He's electable... hmmm. That's the exact opposite of the CW, and certianly of the OLD CW. I happen to agree with you, but I don't think that's the best argument to be floated for him. Or at least, with your formulation. Perhaps a bit of specificity is in order to adress this issue. This issue, of being too tough on criminals, isn't going to hurt his general election chances. It helps his image as an advocate of the limp-wristed liberal posistion that criminals should be let out of jail (this is the perception, the fact that the reality is that public defender system and the constitution are VITAL to protecting the INNOCENT isn't really important). I don't like this stuff, but it's a hell of a lot better than Ashcroft's America.

Dean Ditto-heads? 27.Jul.2003 01:18


You know how people refer to Rush Limbaugh as "ditto heads"? Well, I'm beginning to think there's a growing ditto-head trend in the Dean camp. I constantly see Dean supporters posting comments like the one above. The catch phrase being some derivative of "he's the only one that can beat Bush."

What's up with that? Reading from talking points published at Dean's websites?

Most liberals (and I'm not one) would say Kerry is the most able to beat Bush (so-called liberals consider Kerry a traditional liberal).

It's kind of funny. It's as if these Dean-dittoheads need to convince themselves that Dean is a liberal. Hell, I'd rather vote for Kerry than Dean if given a choice between only those two because at least Kerry is a little more honest. Dean is a centrist lying about being a liberal. It's rather shameful.

The other catch phrases I see focus on fire, on passion.... Give me a break. Dean's politics are not progressive, and any passion he proffers is usually about how he's progressive -- about how he has new ideas for America. By and large, he doesn't have new ideas. It's just that simple. He's a generic Wilsonian/Rockefeller Democrat when it comes to international relations (boils down to "imperialism lite" via "constructive engagement") and his domestic policies are an improvement over Bush, to be sure, but are not something to crow about. That has been well documented on PDX IMC - no need to tread there.

If comes down to Dean vs. Bush, yeah, I'll probably vote for Dean (even though I'd want to vote green or something else). But let's be honest here Mr. Liberal. Take off your blinders. Dean isn't a liberal, Mr. Liberal. What are you? A ditto head?

self-fulfilling prophecy 27.Jul.2003 01:27

its ok canada isn't far

"Dean is the only Democrat who can beat Bush"

If so, it may well be largely because there are so many people who keep repeating this over and over and over.

If you need to do a election mantra, try repeating something more like this instead maybe: "Kucinich is the only Democrat who deserves to beat Bush".

I mean, look at that stuff. Dean sounds like f****** Ashcroft and Rumsfeld!!!!! Did we not learn anything last time guys who sounded like that got voted in? Helloooooo????

I'd sooner shoot myself in the foot than vote for Dean, because at least that I'd only be inflicting on myself.

Yikes 27.Jul.2003 03:50


The Rutland Herald article was simply frightening. I've emailed Dean's campaign inquiring about Dean's quoted remarks. If he stands by them today, my support for the man is over.

I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for now. In the immediate aftermath of the September 11th attacks, I said some strong words myself. I'll hope that's all these were too.

Fools Never Learn 27.Jul.2003 04:36

Fuck the Republicrats

The Demo-rat Party is no better and no different than the Republicans. All of this bickering about candidates and rhetoric that you should suport "Anybody But Bush" is of course propaganda pushed by the Democrat Party and its sympatherizers in the so-called "progressive" media.

It bears repeating again and again that every policy implemented by the Bush Regime has been based up the significant and necessary support of the Demo-rats. The Invasion of Afghanistan, the Patriot Act, Homeland Security Dept., the Invasion of Iraq--all were supported by the Demo-rats.

Remember also that the Bush Regime was actually reluctant t to implement the Homeland Security Dept. in the first place! The idea for this Fatherland Dept. was first proposed and pushed by Demo-rat Joseph Lieberman and only adopted by Bush after much political pressure.

If you want to actually have an impact on issues, instead of bickering about which lying American politician or which wing of the Republicrat Party you should support, focus on Policy and political agenda. Regardless of which criminals are in the Congress and White House, if you put pressure on them to adopt this or that policy, they will do so if you hold their feet to the fire....

Warts and ALL!! 27.Jul.2003 05:12

E. Olsen

I just got done reading an article by Dean where he hammered Bush on everything from the environment to the War. Sooner or later, you Greens will need to throw your support behind someone (a lessor of two evils) or we WILL have "W" for another 4 years. Without a doubt, if Nader would have thrown his votes to Gore, we NEVER would have wound up with Bush. You need to get real and see who COULD take on "W" and WIN. You'll just have to accept the guy, "warts and all", or we'll have another 4 years of these neo-con nuts tearing up the planet. To date, the only candidate willing to stand up to "W" on all issues has been Dean.

there it is again......Dean ditto-heads 27.Jul.2003 07:30


"To date, the only candidate willing to stand up to "W" on all issues has been Dean."


E. Olsen is sharing that refrain I spoke about in my first message.

What gives?

Kucinich confronts Bush on far more issues than Dean. Kucinich has his flaws too, but he's far better than Coward Dean and if one generally embraces the lesser of two evils / vote for Democrat strategy, it's only common sense to fight like hell now, in the pre-primaries, for Kucinich, not Coward Dean. As has been pointed out by many on PDX IMC, supporting Kucinich as such pushes the entire debate more toward the progressive camp. Dean's presence has been doing this to a far lesser (but still positive) extent. But I'm sick and tired of these ditto-heads that keep telling us that Dean is the "only" candidate "wiling to stand up" to W. Total horse shit.... And what's irritating is not that these ditto-heads fail to see grater passion and bravery that Kucinich embodies, but the ditto-head inability to see the blatant hypocrisy and generic talking from both sides of his mouth that is represented by Dean's record. Kucinich detractors can point to his change on abortion and make an issue out of it. That's valid. But Dean? Good lord, the guy reeks of hypocrisy across a very long list of issues.

E. Olsen, support who you want, but do so with honesty. Support Dean if you wish, but don't worship him. You're acting like you're in a cult.

Genital Warts and All! 27.Jul.2003 07:51


Hey, here is a great campaign slogan for Howard Dean--(Genital) Warts and All!


--Brought to you by People for Howard Dean, the electable Warmonger.

Dems is soooo gullible 27.Jul.2003 11:31

slkejgzdfg (formerly A Liberal)

Actually I posted that first message about Dean being electable. It was a joke, but you weak Dem sheep fell for it. What you gotta do it support Lieberman! OK thats a joke too...wait ALL the Dem candidates are a joke.

Abandon politics. Stop giving control over your life to hired hands. Your unwillingness to make your own decisions will not save you.

Bush isn't doing that bad 27.Jul.2003 12:54


It is a sign of a suicidal Left that thinks that wasting
five words attacking Howard Dean is a good use
of time with Bush-Ashcroft launching an assault on womens
rights internationally, on labor rights domestically, and
on peace and security globally through Star Wars

and another thing 27.Jul.2003 13:05


Dems tend to fight among themselves more than Reps during the primaries and hold grudges longer. Remember how people were so hateful toward Bradley in 2000 and Brown in 1992 because they wouldn't shut up and drop out. McCain supporters had much less trouble getting in line behind Bush. Perhaps this is because Dems are marginally more principled than Reps. I don't know. Right now, Dems are divided against themselves. One side wants to win at all cost. The other wants to pull the party back toward its (rumored) progressive roots. Personally, I'd suggest the right wing of the party drop the act and regester Rep and the left wing of the party abandon politics altogether and get to work rebuilding society from the ground up. I'm not holding my breath.

NADER BACKS BUSH 27.Jul.2003 13:12


nader profits while he preaches

No GWB , you're wrong 27.Jul.2003 16:32


Kucinich is an easy choice vs. Dean -- a far better choice. At this stage of the game, either Kucinich or Dean have about the same chance of winning (despite Dean's higher profile and bigger money chest, Kucinich will gain more momentum because the guy isn't quite the liar Dean is, and because as people actually listen to Kucinich speak, they will be inspired by his vision to cut the Pentagon budget by 50% and all the other things he has in his platform).

No, Mr. GWB, oh one of meager binary thinking, we have more choices here and now, in the pre-primary process. Even registered greens should switch to registered Democrat just temporarily so as to vote for Kucinich in the primary process (and go back to green later -- no harm done, and this stands for all other progressive and left parties). In the pre-primary through primary season, even anarchists and people that don't vote out of protest have nothing to lose for stepping into the primary processes and pushing Kucnich forward since Kucinich is the most left of the Democrats (Sharpton might be deemed as such in other ways, but Sharpton isn't as vocal about cutting the Pentagon, and Sharpton has paltry previous experience in public office whereas Kucinich is the co-chair of the largest caucus in Congress). The bottom-line is that supporting Kucinich aggressively in the primary and pre-primary period is a smart move even for those that note the corruptness of the Democratic Party and have the "Fuck the Republicrats" sentiments (rightfully so!).

just a thought from another generation 27.Jul.2003 18:11


I was surprised at the intense support for Dean by some fairly well educated white younger adults who like to think of themselves as progressive until I stopped to look at the huge media blitz. Those who design ads for the visual media (TV) are clever at telling people what to do --- "Dean is the only candidate who can beat Bush etc. etc" --- and really well meaning people buy into the messages.
Don't be too hard on them --- there are bilions of dollars spent to get inside people's minds and convince them to buy this or support that...
The important conversation that is going on now is on media like indy where thougtful people can post links to information that does not get out in the news.
I threw my TV out 14 years ago and couldn't be happier --- I feel much better informed now than ever before.
WE all need to talk to each other --- cite your sources and talk to your neighbors and friends... name calling only makes people dig into their positions....
I relly want bush thrown out
but I don't want some bushlite guy if there is a chance to get someone really able to think differently.
Yes, I support Kucinich --- heard about him first on alternative news sources including indy...

Hey, Mom! 27.Jul.2003 21:03


There is no well-meaning in chanting, 'beat bush",
without even bothering with a chorus of, "lesser evil".

Dean is scum. He has flaunted it.

Those junkies bend over willingly and spread their brains wide-open
in return for a few seconds of adrenaline fix from the idiot-box.

Then, they swarm to the ballot-box in twitching herds
and vote to hold me down, too.

And you want me to "Don't be too hard on them".

There is this guy, who used to live in the same house as me,
whose mom doesn't want the judge to be too hard on him.

He's sitting in a cell,
waiting for his sixth sentence :
three to five for theft.

The bitch doesn't want to know her poor baby,
until it is time to put on the rags of motherhood wronged
and perform before of the court.

Every little boy loves his mom,
and wants her to be 'there' for him.

She would be more 'there',
don't you think,
if she would stop making excuses for him,
tell him to pry his lips off the glass-teat,
and take some responsibility.

Running as a Liberal? 28.Jul.2003 00:25


" Dean is a centrist lying about being a liberal. It's rather shameful'"

That's pretty much totally incorrect. I dare you to find Dean saying anything like "I'm a liberal" or "I'm running as a liberal with a liberal agenda". Dean has always run as centrist who happened to disagree with the Bush administration's Iraq war. His main issue before Iraq was balancing the budget. Sure he's cribbed a few good soundbites from Paul Wellstone, but he's always made sure to mention that he's not as liberal as Paul was. I understand all you good leftists need to prove that any one who seeks power is really a craven, sociopath bent on world destruction, but come on. The guy is trying to keep Bush out of the White House from 2005 to 2008. Is that not a noble goal worthy of some meager respect. Just ignore him if his quest to provide health care for all Americans irks your anarchist sensibities. Wait till he's actually won an election (or better yet, wait till YOU'VE actually won an election) before you start canibalizing the dude and calling him a shameful liar when he's really not. Are pleas for sanity too much for this site?

Kucinichites are dead-enders 28.Jul.2003 00:33


Kucinich! He's going to gain momentum when people hear about his plan to cut the Pentagon by 50%! Hey, I'm all for cutting the Pentagon's budget but even I can see that's not a winning issue. Sorry, but, Kucinich is going nowhere. I'd back that statement up with all kinds of facts, figures and news clippings but frankly the guy's not worth the research. I mean is PDX.indymedia the only thing you read? You must not get out much if you think Dennis Kucinich can win a national election. Al Sharpton has a MUCH better chance than Kucinich. Socialist-peaceniks make up maybe %1 of the country. And half of them won't vote for a white man just out of principle.

What Hypocricy 28.Jul.2003 00:52


X man, you're going to have to do better than hurl Tom DeLay style insults. What hypocricy? I'm a Green Dean supporter who according to you has been "suckered" or fooled into some sort of mindless acceptance of Dean's "lies". What are you talking about? I know his health care plan is incrementalist, I know he supported the war in Afghanistan and wouldn't touch millitary spending, I know he's pro-Israel, I know he's against medical marijuana iniatives and he's pro-death penalty. He's always been very up front about these things and yeah, I don't agree with him on those issues. But guess what, I'm not running for president. I don't expect to ever vote for a candidate who's as progressive as I'd like him to be. But have you noticed this George W. Bush guy? Maybe you've been living in a tree the past 3 years (you never know on indymedia) but he's like, super-nasty-bad. Howard Dean's just a politician who's for providing health care for kids (you DO like kids don't you? How's Dennis Kucinich's healthcare for all bill making its way through Congress these days?) and signing the Kyoto Protocol AND he supports Instant Runoff Voting. As a Green whose faced with the choice between health care for kids, reduction of greenhouses gasses, and IRV or George W. Bush (I don't have time to explain how awful this guy is but, trust me, it's really important that he not be in the oval office in 2005.) well, the choice is clear. Kucinich is so far behind and has such pathetic prospects (CW it may be, but it's the truth, Ruth) that he's just a non-option. I'm in it to win this time around. But once Dean's elected, I'll be right back to criticizing him like a good leftist should.

bill 28.Jul.2003 01:17


okay, i hadn't eaten dinner yet.
i don't want to sink into despair or name calling.
i really don't understand why young educated adults are going for dean.
he hasn't said anything about fundamental change which is what we need.
he seems to be just a prettier version of Kerry...
sorry if this is a second reply.
i hit submit and the whole thing disappearedi should go to bed.

That's All Right, Mom, 28.Jul.2003 04:44


I'm only bleeding. (Bobby had some great lines!)

Yes, I was harsh. But it would certainly defeat my purpose to go easy on you, now. Wouldn't it?

So Dean can sing, "Love me. LOVE me. Love me. Mumble MUMble mumble!", and people think he's the lesser of two evils.

Do you know how long we have been ** knowingly ** voting for the lesser of two evils? Sometimes, for variety I suppose, the greater?

USA, CAN, UK are probably the only places in the world where a man can spend his life lying and murdering and stealing; then, smile charmingly and say, "Honest, deep down inside I'm a really nice guy.". And people will believe -- without the bonus offer of a gun-barrel up their nose -- "Oh, that's alright then. I saw it on TV, so it must be true."

Young adults are going for Dean because they are educated. They have been taught all their lives to ignore what a man does and invest their feeble faith in teleprompters. They have memorized a language gutted of its most important meanings. They know that whoever is named President will take his orders from other Masters, so they make the best with what they've given to play with.

No need to despair.

YOU were jolted by my comment.
YOU recognized there was some truth nagging you.

Run with what you can carry.

Little Hughie has to save himself.

His mom has to save herself.
At least get a better acting coach : she's not impressing those judges.

Sometime you have to wait a _long_ while for your comment to reappear out of the ether.

imcPortland is just another part of the system. You gather up the ovaries to speak your mind. You get the words right. You arrange them gracefully. Then, they remind you :


Vote 28.Jul.2003 05:38


You wont have to worry about who is elected with electronic voting the fix is in. We must have a paper trail or the corporation will rig the electronic voting machines.

some thoughts on who can win 28.Jul.2003 09:36

maka waje

Just some things to keep in mind... Dean has won basically one election, to governor- and then held on to that post.
Kucinich has won more elections than anyone running, and defeated more republican incumbants than anyone running. Every time the press said it was impossible. Everytime he did it with far less money. And every time it was the deep grassroots campaign energized by his integrity that won the day. The dems can NOT out spend Bush. If they try they will fail. The only way to win is to have a different strategy- and Kucinich is the only guy running who has that alternative, strategy.

BE WARY OF THE DLC 28.Jul.2003 11:43

Donna Brazile

Be wary of the Democratic (mis)Leadership Committee. These clowns have been trying to "marginalize" any candidates who don't tow the Clintonite "New Democrat" line. In fact, there are strong suspicions that the DLC is essentially a Neocon political trojan horse, designed to turn the Democrats into warmongering Neocons just like the Republicans are.

what choice 28.Jul.2003 12:40

fluffy kitty

What's all this shit about choosing between the lesser of two evils. It's not even that anymore. Now we're forced to choose between the evil of two lessers. What's the point of saying Dean is the only one who can beat Bush, when they act like the same person. They both suck.
And not to be a cynic, but like it matters who we vote for anyway, aren't there a dozen other states that have that new online voter database that kicks out anyone of color or whose name sounds like that of a felons?
how's that handbasket, comfy?

Kerry in 2004 29.Jul.2003 21:28

Mary MacElveen xmjmac@optonline.net

As a person who at one time backed Governor Dean, that support now goes to Senator John F. Kerry. Here is one among many reasons for my support of Senator Kerry.

Most likely, we will still be engaged in overseas actions during the 2004 presidential campaign and for the reasons listed below you will see why this honorable man NEEDS to become the 44th President of the United States.

Out of all the candidates, only Senator Kerry has served in the military. Only Senator Kerry knows what life is like for any soldier and he knows all too well what they are going through at this point. A man who understands through experience what war is truly about, is the better man to bring about peace. This man in my opinion is Senator John F. Kerry.

I am sure that he feels angry because he knows the environment these armed forces of ours are now living in. As a former soldier who was trained to believe in his commander in chief and believe in the mission, he must feel betrayed. I believe through recent events where our soldiers are speaking out against this administration, they too must feel betrayed. A President Kerry would not betray our troops.

Mary MacElveen
Sound Beach, NY

Very disheartening news about Dean 29.Jul.2003 22:36

Pamela saramagoddess@yahoo.com

This is just one more in a long line of disheartening news about Dean. I hope people wake up before it is too late.

John Kerry is a far better choice for President! He can and will beat Bush!

juvenile pseudo intellectuals 29.Jul.2003 23:06

magicman magicman@texas.net

Seems there is at least ome Kucinich ditto head out there. There is no one holding elected office at the national level who has not sold out. You kids have not done your homework. Generation X does not vote or even know that there civil rights are being trampled on. White middle aged people elect the canidates, you kids just whine and posture and beat your chest. Kucinich hasn't got a prayer nor does any other canidate who would run on a platform of 50% reduction on defense spending. The lemmings out there who do vote believe all the disinformation about "having a strong national defense". Climb down out of your fantasy lives and look around. Do you know anything about the "IRS Act of 1933" how about the owners of the "Federal Reserve". I guarantee it's not " We the People". You have to know who your enemy is before you can defeat him.
GWB is not the enemy. He's just the front man. If you ask anybody who knew him in Midland they will tell "He was the dumbest guy in town.". He was the worst governor in Texas history, but the lemmings liked his posturing, "his packaging" and in the end it was five guys in black robes who handed.over the Presidency to him. Who controls The United States Government (a corporation called "government). When was it incorporated and by whom? Are you a "US citizen"or an " American Ciizen"? Do tou know the difference?

Shame 29.Jul.2003 23:47


If you remember that odorous scam from last year, the "Kerry Amendment", you may be more inclined to shower him with cobbles and hods than with votes.

Nice nym. One does not often meet a goddess who admits to being clay.

Chill out 30.Jul.2003 11:12


Okay, why don't we look closely at the person who is critcizing Dean in the Rut article, the Law Prof Mello:

"It's why they attacked us," he continued. "I think our freedom is what they find so threatening, our freedom and the power that I think results directly from that freedom."

Sound familiar at all? "They attacked us because we're so wonderful, and powerful."

Dean should be careful what he says, but maybe we should keep in mind where these critcisms are coming from, and what these critics are generally trying to accomplish.

Kucinich for President 2004 30.Jul.2003 14:14

James Partsch-Galván galvan@myway.com

Thanks for all those links to some great information on Dean especially the story in the Texas Triangle. I read the Texas Triangle here in Houston, Texas.
I will not vote for Howard Dean if he is the Democratic Candidate for President. I would rather vote for the devil that I know(George Bush) or for a 3rd Party Candidate. \
Right now, I am supporting Dennis Kucinich for the Democratic Party Nomination. I hope he wins it.

James Partsch-Galván  http://www.galvan.org

1611 Holman Houston, Texas 77004


My Lai Massacre

What the hell is with all the Democrap political partisans coming on Indymedia to promote their favorite criminal/presidential candidate? All of you Demoraps should go back to your fellow Democrap Party partisans and attempt to convince them on the respective merits of your assortment of lying and murderous politicians.

For all you John Kerry supporters (like Mary MacElveen and Pamela), get the hell out of here. All your pathetic disinformation promoting Kerry and trashing his rivals don't fly here. You are not dealing with your typical Whitebread "We support our War Criminals/troops" patriots here. Your laughable attempts at playing the Patriot Card and portraying Kerry as some kind of "War Hero" may fool the average Flag waving sheeple but they don't have any moral authority here.

Vote for John Kerry? Fuck him. Kerry supported the invasion of Iraq. Kerry supported the invasion of Afhganistan. Kerry supported the Patriot Act and Homeland Security. In short, Kerry is a (Democratic) fascist Warmonger no different from any other American leader.

BTW, Mary, Take your Patriotic bullshit about "supporting the troops" and go back to hell. You and other American miltiary goons are murderers, war criminals, and mercenaries. You don't deserve support. You and your leaders (from John Kerry to George Bush) deserve to be hunted down as the fascists fucks which you are. Let's hope the Iraqi Resistance movement is giving your "troops" all the misery, death, and pain which you deserve.