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How to break a Conservative Libertarian masquerading as a Liberal

"We should provide aid and assistance to those who are our friends and simply ignore those who are not. After all if they can afford to insult us it must be because they don't need us. Let them strike out on their own. If they survive fine, if they become extinct fine."
Please be aware that there are those who seek to infiltrate Indymedia to spread a Conservative, Isolationist agenda, as you can well see from the conversation below (from DC Indymedia). I don't think there is anything we can do other than to remove their masks and make them admit their agenda -- let them be judged by their true ideals and not the ones they hide behind to gain sympathy.

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Something for the pro-war's to be proud of
by Liberty,  anythingtohere@yahoo.com

from BBC website

Iraq is thought to be having a cholera outbreak due to contaminated water and poor living conditions following the war....also increase in digestive problems....

jingo all the way, hurrah what ho...all hail US and UK...

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I smell a Conservative Isolationist
by pro-human

Hmm, the name of the poster is Liberty - as in Libertarian?

Libertarians persue a policy of "America First" (a.k.a. "Everyone and Everything else Last") which is best descrived as live and let die. Their view is that America has no business trying to help anyone accept Americans, the rest of the world is on its own.

Isn't that right Liberty?

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Please
by Jason

The "concern" on the pro-war side for the welfare of the Iraqi people is as fake as their "patriotism". Where was the outrage from these people during the 80's when Rummy was shaking hands with the "Butcher of Baghdad"? There was none because no right-wing voices were telling them to care.

If you're so outraged at France for doing business with Saddam, where is the outrage over Dick Cheney doing business with him from 1998-2000? There is none. In fact, you make excuses for it.

It's just hilarious that the same people who railed against Clinton for being a draft-dodger, say nothing about W. doing the same thing. In fact, they call him a hero.

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Libertarians masquerading as Liberals
by pro-human

Your criticisms are hollow because you offer no alternative. Why is that? Because you honestly don't care about anything other than a Conservative Isolationist agenda.

So why don't we skip ahead -- how would you go about removing the world-renounced dictatorship of North Korea? Do you think your method will be free of any harmful secondary affects like cholera?

You see, I want a world in which dictatorships aren't free to hide within the graces of the UN -- where China can't occupy Tibet, Israel can't occupy Palestine, and Syria can't occupy Lebanon. But I'm not naive enough to believe that there is a way to achieve these things without negative consequences.

I also believe believe that it is in America's best interest (as well as our moral obligation) to do more than bitch and moan -- and that Isolationists such as yourself are the scourge of the modern world.

All you want to know is how much will it cost and why you should have to pay for it.

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note for pro-human
by sightseer56

Yes, the primary principle is America First. If not us supporting ourself, who? That dosen't mean everyone else has to be a distant last, but they should definitely be second to our own national interest. Please don't start that tattered crap that if we just all joined hands and sang "We are the World" everything would be great. Unfortunately there are those in the world that will present a threat to us and/or to international order. They musy be eliminated. At least that was we can hope to have a sembelance of peace. We should provide aid and assistance to those who are our friends and simply ignore those who are not. After all if they can afford to insult us it must be because they don't need us. Let them strike out on their own. If they survive fine, if they become extinct fine. As far as the maniac leadership, that problem could be handled by selective removal of the problem short of war. We certainly have the capability, let's use it.

In the real world of both people and nations, you do not turn the other cheek when slapped. You pick up a club and beat the other guys brains out. Threat eliminated!

Again, that's real world and not focus group nonsense.

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Libertarians come crawling out...
by pro-human

I knew it!!!

What you don't seem to understand is that your view is not the view put forth by Indymedia, which seeks to unite people worldwide to help people worldwide -- there is no room for an America First attitude.

Get it?!!

homepage: homepage: http://dc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=68365&group=webcast

Lies, damed lies and statistics 08.May.2003 13:49

James

"Libertarians persue a policy of "America First" (a.k.a. "Everyone and Everything else Last") which is best descrived as live and let die. Their view is that America has no business trying to help anyone accept Americans, the rest of the world is on its own."

That's very misleading. The libertarian view is that the American GOVERNMENT has no business trying to help anyone accept Americans. If America -- her citizens -- wants to help others through private charity, that's certainly a good thing.

Futher, foreign aid always has been and always will be abused. Upset about American military aid to Israel? Ashamed when Apache attack helicopters paid for by yourself are used to slaughter Palestinians? That's a natural extension of foreign aid.

"So why don't we skip ahead -- how would you go about removing the world-renounced dictatorship of North Korea? Do you think your method will be free of any harmful secondary affects like cholera?"

As a libertarian American president, I would visit North Korea. I would compliment the North Koreans on their country. I would be respectful and humble. I would emulate Richard Nixon's trip to China. I would open trade with them. I would remove all tariffs. Money would inevitably flow into their country as a result of this trade. They would be able to buy food.

Capitalism moves people towards freedom. The China of today is not Nixon's China. There are special economic zones which are fairly free. There are dance clubs. There are churches. There is a thriving middle class. Why is Shanghai growing so quickly? Everyone in China sees how much better it is there, and wants to live there.

The same would be true in North Korea. Freer trade begets freer living.

"What you don't seem to understand is that your view is not the view put forth by Indymedia, which seeks to unite people worldwide to help people worldwide -- there is no room for an America First attitude."

Can't deal with a little reasoned, open political debate? No room for any view but your own? Are you that insecure in your own beliefs that you can't properly defend them?

If we could get the government to only "help" those who are starving, are abused, I would not have so much of a problem with foreign aid. But we can't. It will always be abused. We will always give weapons to dictatorships towards a short-term goal. We will continue to give Israel weapons. Who's going to decide who gets America's help? The legislature? The President? The American People? All of them would gladly send huge sums of money and weapons to Israel to slaughter Palestinians, innocent and terrorist alike.

It's not an "America First" attitude. It's an "America Only" attitude. We may have a moral duty to stop genocide. We probably do have a moral duty to feed the World's hungry. But how can we do it without the end-result being worse than the alternative?