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Garage Sale

You clowns didn't stop the war with your protests so now all you have to cry about is the looting of garage sale junk in Iraq...
Donald Rumsfeld:
"You cannot do everything instantaneously. It's untidy, And freedom's untidy. And free people are free to make mistakes and commit crimes and do bad things."

He makes a valid point here. Free people going downtown protesting have made quite a lot of untidy mistakes as well. Needless to say, its not because they are free its because they were raised in the burbs with silver spoons in their mouthes so now they dress down with thrift store clothes and try to shove their point down everyones throat. Besides, when you see the worthless junk those Iraqi's are carting away it makes me laugh. How can loot a country when it doesn't have anything worth stealing in the first place?
Worthless junk 12.Apr.2003 12:27

Generals gathered in their masses....

Let us speak of worthless junk.

worth = a computer, a fancy car, a nice cell phone, fancy clothing, nice china plates, and unsustainable amerikan lifestyle.

those things have worth?

anyway, you war-whore monger justifying-type human...you seem like you are a child of the media lies & spin.

any alternative media that you might care to bother to read will inform you that Sadam H. has been a CIA-wunderkind since the late 60's, when he was first employed as an assassin.

are things so different now? Convenient how such a die-hard leader of such a die-hard people just...split...left...<poof>. Sort of convenient just like how the US was still woo-ing Sadam H. while he was gassing Kurds.

looks like events played out quite well for the US to "suddenly" have a major hand in making - and keeping - a presence in the Mid-East. gosh, why would a christian nation do that?

anyway, I love reading the reactionary proto-fascist trolls who frequent this board.

U R All so ill-informed. Go read a book - you know - a book. it's definitely not something that resembles a T.V.

moreover, go read a book that actually contains some un-spun information about the Middle East & some policies..which were created decades ago...that have now come to fruition....& will play our for some time.

Fortunately, I can smile...knowing that which the US wishes to come to pass...will not. There is the great other factor "X" - the unknown...the warp & weft of chaos...which will ensure the US's machinations will never work out properly...or fully.

btw: wonder if we'll have a mujadeen-style force eventually make their way to amerika? Russia is STILL paying the price for their invasion of afghanistan...so much so, as any of you informed folks know, that they will eventually be over-run (potentially) by those CIA-trained muslim citizens. In how many years, oh russia, will the muslims outnumber your good communists? Hmmmmm.

"we got the guns, we got the numbers...."

Foolish Logic... 12.Apr.2003 14:51

Trilox Woodsman

"btw: wonder if we'll have a mujadeen-style force eventually make their way to amerika?"

Maybe don't pay much attention to the FBI website or the mainstream press because if you did you would see such people (I use that term loosely) are already here. They are called Al Queda sleeper cells and they are lurking in the shadows preparing to commit more terrorist acts. How can you expect me to argue with you when I have to educate you first?

If you consider 7000 year old icons worthless 12.Apr.2003 15:18

Adam Bernstein zenarcade@attbi.com

Well obviously you haven't heard about the looting of the Iraqi museums. Looters smashed and cleared out 7000 years of history.

'Trilox Woodsman logic' 12.Apr.2003 16:25


"They are called Al Queda sleeper cells and they are lurking in the shadows preparing to commit more terrorist acts."
'Trilox Woodsman logic'
'Trilox Woodsman logic'

Like I said... 12.Apr.2003 16:29

Trilox Woodsman

"Looters smashed and cleared out 7000 years of history."

Who cares? Now it belongs to someone else. Someone who had nothing to begin with except for what Saddam let him or her have. Besides, most of you here are godless anti-humanists anyway so what do you care about a bunch of artifacts?

please define---- 12.Apr.2003 17:08


"godless anti-humanists"

Saddam is Trilox Woodsman's buddy 12.Apr.2003 17:12


Contrary to the steady diet of Saddam Hussein--Bogeyman being spewed by 'Trilox Woodsman', Hussein has had intimate connections to the USA and American intelligence dating back to the late 1950s. Indeed, Hussein's connections to the USA are much like that of another American spawn and collaborater, USAma Bin Laden, who was created by and probably continues working for the CIA to this very day. The above picture of an American flag being draped over the face of Saddam's statue is revealing, but not in the sense that most Americans understand. Like USAma Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein was made in America.

Exclusive: Saddam key in early CIA plot

By Richard Sale
UPI Intelligence Correspondent
From the International Desk
Published 4/10/2003 7:30 PM

U.S. forces in Baghdad might now be searching high and low for Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein, but in the past Saddam was seen by U.S. intelligence services as a bulwark of anti-communism and they used him as their instrument for more than 40 years, according to former U.S. intelligence diplomats and intelligence officials.

United Press International has interviewed almost a dozen former U.S. diplomats, British scholars and former U.S. intelligence officials to piece together the following account. The CIA declined to comment on the report.

While many have thought that Saddam first became involved with U.S. intelligence agencies at the start of the September 1980 Iran-Iraq war, his first contacts with U.S. officials date back to 1959, when he was part of a CIA-authorized six-man squad tasked with assassinating then Iraqi Prime Minister Gen. Abd al-Karim Qasim.

In July 1958, Qasim had overthrown the Iraqi monarchy in what one former U.S. diplomat, who asked not to be identified, described as "a horrible orgy of bloodshed."

According to current and former U.S. officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity, Iraq was then regarded as a key buffer and strategic asset in the Cold War with the Soviet Union. For example, in the mid-1950s, Iraq was quick to join the anti-Soviet Baghdad Pact which was to defend the region and whose members included Turkey, Britain, Iran and Pakistan.

Little attention was paid to Qasim's bloody and conspiratorial regime until his sudden decision to withdraw from the pact in 1959, an act that "freaked everybody out" according to a former senior U.S. State Department official.

Washington watched in marked dismay as Qasim began to buy arms from the Soviet Union and put his own domestic communists into ministry positions of "real power," according to this official. The domestic instability of the country prompted CIA Director Allan Dulles to say publicly that Iraq was "the most dangerous spot in the world."

In the mid-1980s, Miles Copeland, a veteran CIA operative, told UPI the CIA had enjoyed "close ties" with Qasim's ruling Baath Party, just as it had close connections with the intelligence service of Egyptian leader Gamel Abd Nassar. In a recent public statement, Roger Morris, a former National Security Council staffer in the 1970s, confirmed this claim, saying that the CIA had chosen the authoritarian and anti-communist Baath Party "as its instrument."

According to another former senior State Department official, Saddam, while only in his early 20s, became a part of a U.S. plot to get rid of Qasim. According to this source, Saddam was installed in an apartment in Baghdad on al-Rashid Street directly opposite Qasim's office in Iraq's Ministry of Defense, to observe Qasim's movements.

Adel Darwish, Middle East expert and author of "Unholy Babylon," said the move was done "with full knowledge of the CIA," and that Saddam's CIA handler was an Iraqi dentist working for CIA and Egyptian intelligence. U.S. officials separately confirmed Darwish's account.

Darwish said that Saddam's paymaster was Capt. Abdel Maquid Farid, the assistant military attaché at the Egyptian Embassy who paid for the apartment from his own personal account. Three former senior U.S. officials have confirmed that this is accurate.

The assassination was set for Oct. 7, 1959, but it was completely botched. Accounts differ. One former CIA official said that the 22-year-old Saddam lost his nerve and began firing too soon, killing Qasim's driver and only wounding Qasim in the shoulder and arm. Darwish told UPI that one of the assassins had bullets that did not fit his gun and that another had a hand grenade that got stuck in the lining of his coat.

"It bordered on farce," a former senior U.S. intelligence official said. But Qasim, hiding on the floor of his car, escaped death, and Saddam, whose calf had been grazed by a fellow would-be assassin, escaped to Tikrit, thanks to CIA and Egyptian intelligence agents, several U.S. government officials said.

Saddam then crossed into Syria and was transferred by Egyptian intelligence agents to Beirut, according to Darwish and former senior CIA officials. While Saddam was in Beirut, the CIA paid for Saddam's apartment and put him through a brief training course, former CIA officials said. The agency then helped him get to Cairo, they said.

One former U.S. government official, who knew Saddam at the time, said that even then Saddam "was known as having no class. He was a thug -- a cutthroat."

In Cairo, Saddam was installed in an apartment in the upper class neighborhood of Dukki and spent his time playing dominos in the Indiana Café, watched over by CIA and Egyptian intelligence operatives, according to Darwish and former U.S. intelligence officials.

One former senior U.S. government official said: "In Cairo, I often went to Groppie Café at Emad Eldine Pasha Street, which was very posh, very upper class. Saddam would not have fit in there. The Indiana was your basic dive."

But during this time Saddam was making frequent visits to the American Embassy where CIA specialists such as Miles Copeland and CIA station chief Jim Eichelberger were in residence and knew Saddam, former U.S. intelligence officials said.

Saddam's U.S. handlers even pushed Saddam to get his Egyptian handlers to raise his monthly allowance, a gesture not appreciated by Egyptian officials since they knew of Saddam's American connection, according to Darwish. His assertion was confirmed by former U.S. diplomat in Egypt at the time.

In February 1963 Qasim was killed in a Baath Party coup. Morris claimed recently that the CIA was behind the coup, which was sanctioned by President John F. Kennedy, but a former very senior CIA official strongly denied this.

"We were absolutely stunned. We had guys running around asking what the hell had happened," this official said.

But the agency quickly moved into action. Noting that the Baath Party was hunting down Iraq's communist, the CIA provided the submachine gun-toting Iraqi National Guardsmen with lists of suspected communists who were then jailed, interrogated, and summarily gunned down, according to former U.S. intelligence officials with intimate knowledge of the executions.

Many suspected communists were killed outright, these sources said. Darwish told UPI that the mass killings, presided over by Saddam, took place at Qasr al-Nehayat, literally, the Palace of the End.

A former senior U.S. State Department official told UPI: "We were frankly glad to be rid of them. You ask that they get a fair trial? You have to get kidding. This was serious business."

A former senior CIA official said: "It was a bit like the mysterious killings of Iran's communists just after Ayatollah Khomeini came to power in 1979. All 4,000 of his communists suddenly got killed."

British scholar Con Coughlin, author of "Saddam: King of Terror," quotes Jim Critchfield, then a senior Middle East agency official, as saying the killing of Qasim and the communists was regarded "as a great victory." A former long-time covert U.S. intelligence operative and friend of Critchfield said: "Jim was an old Middle East hand. He wasn't sorry to see the communists go at all. Hey, we were playing for keeps."

Saddam, in the meantime, became head of al-Jihaz a-Khas, the secret intelligence apparatus of the Baath Party.

The CIA/Defense Intelligence Agency relation with Saddam intensified after the start of the Iran-Iraq war in September of 1980. During the war, the CIA regularly sent a team to Saddam to deliver battlefield intelligence obtained from Saudi AWACS surveillance aircraft to aid the effectiveness of Iraq's armed forces, according to a former DIA official, part of a U.S. interagency intelligence group.

This former official said that he personally had signed off on a document that shared U.S. satellite intelligence with both Iraq and Iran in an attempt to produce a military stalemate. "When I signed it, I thought I was losing my mind," the former official told UPI.

A former CIA official said that Saddam had assigned a top team of three senior officers from the Estikhbarat, Iraq's military intelligence, to meet with the Americans.

According to Darwish, the CIA and DIA provided military assistance to Saddam's ferocious February 1988 assault on Iranian positions in the al-Fao peninsula by blinding Iranian radars for three days.

The Saddam-U.S. intelligence alliance of convenience came to an end at 2 a.m. Aug. 2, 1990, when 100,000 Iraqi troops, backed by 300 tanks, invaded its neighbor, Kuwait. America's one-time ally had become its bitterest enemy.

March 14, 2003

A Tyrant 40 Years in the Making


SEATTLE -- On the brink of war, both supporters and critics of United States policy on Iraq agree on the origins, at least, of the haunted relations that have brought us to this pass: America's dealings with Saddam Hussein, justifiable or not, began some two decades ago with its shadowy, expedient support of his regime in the Iraq-Iran war of the 1980's.

Both sides are mistaken. Washington's policy traces an even longer, more shrouded and fateful history. Forty years ago, the Central Intelligence Agency, under President John F. Kennedy, conducted its own regime change in Baghdad, carried out in collaboration with Saddam Hussein.

The Iraqi leader seen as a grave threat in 1963 was Abdel Karim Kassem, a general who five years earlier had deposed the Western-allied Iraqi monarchy. Washington's role in the coup went unreported at the time and has been little noted since. America's anti-Kassem intrigue has been widely substantiated, however, in disclosures by the Senate Committee on Intelligence and in the work of journalists and historians like David Wise, an authority on the C.I.A.

From 1958 to 1960, despite Kassem's harsh repression, the Eisenhower administration abided him as a counter to Washington's Arab nemesis of the era, Gamal Abdel Nasser of Egypt -- much as Ronald Reagan and George H. W. Bush would aid Saddam Hussein in the 1980's against the common foe of Iran. By 1961, the Kassem regime had grown more assertive. Seeking new arms rivaling Israel's arsenal, threatening Western oil interests, resuming his country's old quarrel with Kuwait, talking openly of challenging the dominance of America in the Middle East -- all steps Saddam Hussein was to repeat in some form -- Kassem was regarded by Washington as a dangerous leader who must be removed.

In 1963 Britain and Israel backed American intervention in Iraq, while other United States allies -- chiefly France and Germany -- resisted. But without significant opposition within the government, Kennedy, like President Bush today, pressed on. In Cairo, Damascus, Tehran and Baghdad, American agents marshaled opponents of the Iraqi regime. Washington set up a base of operations in Kuwait, intercepting Iraqi communications and radioing orders to rebels. The United States armed Kurdish insurgents. The C.I.A.'s "Health Alteration Committee," as it was tactfully called, sent Kassem a monogrammed, poisoned handkerchief, though the potentially lethal gift either failed to work or never reached its victim.

Then, on Feb. 8, 1963, the conspirators staged a coup in Baghdad. For a time the government held out, but eventually Kassem gave up, and after a swift trial was shot; his body was later shown on Baghdad television. Washington immediately befriended the successor regime. "Almost certainly a gain for our side," Robert Komer, a National Security Council aide, wrote to Kennedy the day of the takeover.

As its instrument the C.I.A. had chosen the authoritarian and anti-Communist Baath Party, in 1963 still a relatively small political faction influential in the Iraqi Army. According to the former Baathist leader Hani Fkaiki, among party members colluding with the C.I.A. in 1962 and 1963 was Saddam Hussein, then a 25-year-old who had fled to Cairo after taking part in a failed assassination of Kassem in 1958.

According to Western scholars, as well as Iraqi refugees and a British human rights organization, the 1963 coup was accompanied by a bloodbath. Using lists of suspected Communists and other leftists provided by the C.I.A., the Baathists systematically murdered untold numbers of Iraq's educated elite -- killings in which Saddam Hussein himself is said to have participated. No one knows the exact toll, but accounts agree that the victims included hundreds of doctors, teachers, technicians, lawyers and other professionals as well as military and political figures.

The United States also sent arms to the new regime, weapons later used against the same Kurdish insurgents the United States had backed against Kassem and then abandoned. Soon, Western corporations like Mobil, Bechtel and British Petroleum were doing business with Baghdad -- for American firms, their first major involvement in Iraq.

But it wasn't long before there was infighting among Iraq's new rulers. In 1968, after yet another coup, the Baathist general Ahmed Hassan al-Bakr seized control, bringing to the threshold of power his kinsman, Saddam Hussein. Again, this coup, amid more factional violence, came with C.I.A. backing. Serving on the staff of the National Security Council under Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon in the late 1960's, I often heard C.I.A. officers -- including Archibald Roosevelt, grandson of Theodore Roosevelt and a ranking C.I.A. official for the Near East and Africa at the time -- speak openly about their close relations with the Iraqi Baathists.

This history is known to many in the Middle East and Europe, though few Americans are acquainted with it, much less understand it. Yet these interventions help explain why United States policy is viewed with some cynicism abroad. George W. Bush is not the first American president to seek regime change in Iraq. Mr. Bush and his advisers are following a familiar pattern.

The Kassem episode raises questions about the war at hand. In the last half century, regime change in Iraq has been accompanied by bloody reprisals. How fierce, then, may be the resistance of hundreds of officers, scientists and others identified with Saddam Hussein's long rule? Why should they believe America and its latest Iraqi clients will act more wisely, or less vengefully, now than in the past?

If a new war in Iraq seems fraught with danger and uncertainty, just wait for the peace.

Roger Morris, author of "Richard Milhous Nixon: The Rise of an American Politician," is completing a book about United States covert policy in Central and South Asia.


Saddam Hussein--The Making of a Dictator [article + video]
Saddam is Trilox Woodsman's buddy
Saddam is Trilox Woodsman's buddy

Um... 12.Apr.2003 20:48


The study of Western Art and Civilization starts in Iraq. Those artifacts were evidence of our history as well as that of the people of Iraq. They were priceless and irreplacable.

The Woodsman is so lucky to have been born and raised in a country that can offer him knowledge and civilization. It is unfortunat for him and for us that he has not taken advantage of it. He seems not to even understand the role a museum has in safeguarding history and culture.

And to all the phrases that start with "What do you care..." obviously people care. You notice that they say things that imply that they care. So why do you insist on proving that you're an imbecile, by not believing the evidence before you and saying that they don't care, just because that doesn't fit into your simple minded stereotype of themw?

Woodsman, why are you here spouting off ideas as if you have a clue? This world is really too big for you. You can't handle it. You should be in the military where you can let other people do the thinking for you, and you can just follow orders. There is a place in this world for you, but it is not here.

Poppycock... 13.Apr.2003 14:52

Trilox Woodsman

"Woodsman, why are you here spouting off ideas as if you have a clue? This world is really too big for you. You can't handle it. You should be in the military where you can let other people do the thinking for you, and you can just follow orders. There is a place in this world for you, but it is not here."

You don't know me so don't make too many assumptions there little person...