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DECONSTRUCT 'Pro-War demonstrations'

we need to be SEEN AND HEARD when the 'pro-war' people are holding signs and waving flags on Portland streetcorners.

if you see a 'pro-war demonstration', GET OVER THERE with your affinity group and let 'em have it!
we need to show up and be SEEN AND HEARD when the 'pro-war' people are holding signs and waving flags on Portland streetcorners.

Many of these 'demonstrations' are *financially sponsored* by Clear Channel + other Corporate and Right Wing sources.

The media coverage that they get can be countered if we are there *when the media is interviewing them*--

let's show the corporate media that these people DO NOT represent Americans at large!
Freedom of Speech 23.Mar.2003 12:17

RWS

Employing tactics that deny people their freedopm of expression is just evil.

Everyone in this country, cicitizen or not, peace activist or hawk, has a right to their opinion, and further, the right to express it. Denying someone that right is a CRIME.

Let the Voices of Everybody be Heard 23.Mar.2003 12:22

MBR

You talk about how you want to be seen and heard. From what I saw at the protest on Thursday, these pro-war demonstrators weren't even seen and heard nearly as much as the pro-peace demonstrators. I am constantly reading on this website how the "corporate media whores" are always editorializing, and how the police don't let you express your points of view. Now I am reading how you don't believe that other people have the right to express their points of view. Even if these pro-war demonstrators are financially sponsered by people that you don't like, they still have the right to express what they want to say, just as you do. Do you honestly believe that all of the protests that you like to go to aren't financially sponsered by anybody? Most of these "pro-war" people aren't even really pro-war. Most do not believe war is a good thing. They just want some support for the troops themselves. That's the great thing about this country. People are allowed to express their points of view. If you "deconstruct" the pro-war rallies and demonstrators, it will not help your cause. Yes, you do have the right to express yourself. You have the right to let your voice be heard. So do these other people. Stopping a group from expressing what they believe to be right makes you no better than the people you believe to be oppressing you and your opinion.

You're mistaken 23.Mar.2003 12:46

Andrew Sheppard

when you say "these people DO NOT represent Americans at large". All the evidence indicates that they DO, in fact, represent 60%-70% of the citizenry.

You do yourself no favors by presuming that you speak for the majority. That's living in fantasyland and doesn't help your cause. You are a significant and vocal minority opinion. Base your tactics in reality, not wishful thinking, if you expect to prevail.

to 'RWS' 23.Mar.2003 13:01

activist

"Everyone in this country, cicitizen [sic] or not, peace activist or hawk, has a right to their opinion, and further, the right to express it. Denying someone that right is a CRIME."

the original post says NOTHING about denying freedom of speech.

YOU said that.

(I personally interpret your comment as Disinformation and Disruption . . . but onward . . .)

what we are discussing is 'pro-war' rallies that are specifically paid for by MEDIA corporations such as Clear Channel.

we are also discussing 'pro-war' rallies numbering 10 or 20 people (in Portland) at a time, when DAILY anti-war rallies are in the *hundreds* at minimum.

we WILL let Corporate Media hear our voices,

LOUD AND CLEAR above their Pro-War din.
to 'RWS'
to 'RWS'

Pro-War din? 23.Mar.2003 13:18

White American

There is not "pro-war din." There are a few people who are so fed-up and disgusted with the "anti-war din" that they've taken action. The majority of activists are pro-peace and let their voices be heard in a constructive and healthy way. Unfortunately, there are some who use the peace movement to justify and advance their messages of anti-capitalism and their dislike of the man who currently resides in the White House.
The well-meaning and PEACEFUL folks who rally to show their support of the troops are hardly a "din." However, someone has to counter the caucophony raised by the anarchist left who is so filled with hate that they cannot see their own hypocrisy when they want to silence the voices of others.

for 'MBR' 23.Mar.2003 13:19

more voices

"Now I am reading how you don't believe that other people have the right to express their points of view."

NOTHING in the original posting says that.

it was your pal, 'RWS' who insinuates that.

STOP your Disinformation and Disruption 'RWS' and 'MBR'.

--------------
Support the troops - send them all home alive NOW !

Support Res.377 "Uniting for Peace"
Belligerents must withdraw NOW.
***************************************
News from the Front - YellowTimes.org
 http://www.NewsFromtheFront.org
***************************************
March 23, 2003:

We have just printed pictures of the U.S. military POWs in Iraq. The mainstream media has so far excluded this.

We want the truth to get out. Take a look:

 http://www.yellowtimes.org/article.php?sid=1199
==================

Many US casualties in Nassiriya battle; Footage of American POWs, including woman, shown on Iraqi TV
23-03-2003, 17:13
 http://www.albawaba.com/news/index.php3?sid=244999&lang=e&dir=news

On Sunday afternoon, the Qatar-based television al Jazeera broadcast Iraqi TV, showing a videotape of at least 10 US POWs, including one female soldier, and a room with some 15 bodies of US troops. The live broadcast included also a footage of a battle field area in the southern Iraqi city of Nassiriya with additional corpses of US soldiers as well as struck military equipment.

The videotape has also shown how the Iraqis investigate the American POWs. The prisoners were questioned on air and gave their names, military identification numbers and home towns.

Asked why he came to Iraq, one captive replied "I come to fix broke stuff." He was asked by the interviewer if he came to shoot Iraqis. "No I come to shoot only if I am shot at," he said. "They (Iraqis) don't bother me, I don't bother them."

Another prisoner, who said he was from Texas, said only: "I follow orders." A voice off-camera asked "how many officers" were in his unit. "I don't know sir," the man replied.

The chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff U.S. Air Force conceded that there were American soldiers missing, but said that there were fewer than 10 troops unaccounted for in southern Iraq.

U.S. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld warned Sunday it was possible that Iraqi forces had taken U.S. prisoners, saying there were unaccounted soldiers and journalists in the combat zone.

He noted that under the Geneva Conventions governing prisoners of war, "It's illegal to do things to POWs that are humiliating to those prisoners."

Earlier, it was reported that U.S. Marines battled for control of Nassiriya, taking "significant" casualties in a fight to open a route north to Baghdad, military officials said.

Reuters quoted military officials as saying the Marine battalion spearheading the fight had suffered significant casualties in the battle.

A total of 11 U.S. soldiers were captured after taking a wrong turn, and 50 military personnel have been wounded in the massive firefight in Nassiriya, ABCNEWS reported Sunday.

According to the report, 11 soldiers, maintenance workers, had taken a wrong turn outside the city on a mission to carry out repair work. They were traveling in a column of vehicles that came under heavy fire, including from an Iraqi tank. The capture was observed by other forces nearby.

The firefight at Nassiriya blocked an advance by U.S. forces, who had earlier reported securing two key bridgeheads to enable them to cross the Euphrates and strike northwards toward the Iraqi capital.

Reuters said there was heavy U.S. helicopter traffic over the area, and that hundreds of U.S. military trucks and armored personnel carriers had stopped their advance.

Iraqi Information Minister Information Minister Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf told a news conference in Baghdad that foreign invaders headed to Nassiriya had been "taught a lesson they will never forget." "We have placed them in a quagmire except dead," he said. (Albawaba.com)

for 'MBR'
for 'MBR'

That's great 23.Mar.2003 16:16

Aaron mitigated-disaster@db0.net

<snip>
Employing tactics that deny people their freedopm of expression is just evil.
</snip>

No one's being denied anything here. Everyone can say what they want. What wins that battle is VOLUME... the pro-warmongers don't have a chance. Remeber -- it's the right to free speech, not the right to 'be heard'.

That being said, is anyone tracking these pro-war demonstrations on a webpage?


The They is Really We 23.Mar.2003 17:14

Peace For All peace4usall@hotmail.com

Dear World Family;

I've read with interest and sadness your angry. As one who had to serve in the uselesnes of Viet Nam, I fully understand the horror of any war.

I have some questions for you. Each of you.

Where does war originate?

We continue to foster a "we-they" attitude. That's what war does. It lies to us. War tells us that it is either us or them. War tells us that we are different, when in reality we are from the same stock. Regardless whether I like it or not, whether you like it or not, we are brother and sisters in this very large family of humanity. We are fellow beings conected to the same enternal spirit. They are really we.

War finds its roots in the "we-they" paradiem. Gandhi understood this. Martin Luther King understood this.

So how do we get our brothers and sisters that disagree with us to listen? Perhaps, just perhaps, we should start by listening to them. Perhaps we should shed the "we-they" attitudes. Can we change aanyone's mind by distroying property? Can the peace effort be advanced by violence in the streets? Can advisarial actions create cooperation?

I firmly disagree with our government's war in Iraq. I firmly stand against all war. I stand as firm against the "we-they" attitudes of both sides. Pro-war, Anti-war.... I encourage us to be Pro-peace and this pace begins with me..... and you....

Rapaging through the streets of America will not bring peace. It may effect temporarily an absence of war, but it won't bring any kind of lasting peace.

Lining up to shut down the freeways or other modes of commerece will not bring peace. It may bring change, but it won't be peace.

Passive, peaceful resistance and dialogue, honest discussions amoung family members can bring peace. Te exercise of patience, kindness, hope, faith and love kind will bring peace.

If you don't like a particular company's stance on the war, don't buy it's products or services and tell them why. Martin Luther King simply told the proestors to predudice, "don't ride the buses." He did not tell them to bomb the busses or harm the drivers.

This is a family disagreement. Whether you presently feel like a family member or not, you are. I encourage each of us to shed the shackles of hate, violence, predudice and come together and reason as family members.

May you find the peace that your so seek.

LM

Just stay as sweet as you are... 23.Mar.2003 20:48

Mark IV

...and you will be guaranteed to drive off any sympathy that you may have elicited from the general public. In denying the average citizen the ability to get where he/she wants to go or to close down a business puts you in the category of terrorist. Try getting sympathy like that.

I have also noticed (based on the original posting in this thread) that while you self-righteously cloak yourselves in the 1st Amendment and demand that YOU be heard, you simultaneously shout down or outright prevent your opponents from speaking.

Your Constitutuinal right to freedom of speech DOES NOT extend to acts of criminality, and certainly does not include assaulting police officers or vandalizing property. While you may argue that it does, I would submit, then, that a police officer's expression of opinion of your activity could be construed to include clubbing you unconcious.

You can't have it both ways, folks...

Grow up...

Capitalism equals war- protests didnt end Nam 23.Mar.2003 20:53

GRINGO STARS gringo_stars@attbi.com

As MLK fully understood, capitalism equals war. Our economic system leads directly to wars of conquest and imperialism. Period. This war can not be considered a seperate issue than our economic system, just as MLK found that racism is directly connected to capitalism. MLK realised that capitalism equals racism, war, and imperialism, which are all intertwined (sexism is also directly related).

Radicals want to destroy a system that is proven not to work (except for the very few ultra-wealthy), and that leads directly to war. Radicals realise that the US is a plutocracy, run by the financially elite with no real popular input.

Liberals, on the other hand, seem to benefit from the current system and see the invasion of Iraq as some bizarre anomoly (as if the US hadn't been slaughtering civilians all over the world for over a century). I also pity the liberals for their trust of the corporate propaganda, as seen on CNN/FOX/ABC/NBC/CBS/ClearChannel/AP/Reuters and so on. Liberals believe that the US is a democracy (because leaders want us to think that).

I understand it's difficult for liberals to quit watching corporate news on the TV, after all it's bright and shiny and I get hypnotised by it too sometimes, although I keep my wits sharp by deconstructing their Pentagon-approved propaganda. The corporate news habit must be broken. Repitition is a large part of propaganda, and hearing the same lies repeated often enough make them almost believable, for many.

I appreciate "peace for all"'s love of peace. But I should remind him, a veteran of Vietnam, of how the war was ended. The Vietnam War was not ended by protestors in the US. The US is, after all, not at all a democracy but a Plutocracy. The Vietnam War was ended because the Army became useless - from fraggings. No commander could do ANYTHING remotely dangerous to his men, because the troops had killed so many of the more bloodthirsty commanders (they had a bounty system and collected a pot of money for each commander that was particularly ruthless). Middle-class officers (looking for quick promotions by expending their mens' lives) had to negotiate every little order with the working-class grunts, under threat of death. The Army couldn't do a damned thing. Some units even had truces with "the enemy." Troops that wore their weapon barrel facing down or with peace logos on their helmets were not shot at. Some US troops even helped the Viet out with harvesting crops and rebuilding their villages. You won't hear about how Vietnam was really ended in the corporate media;
 http://www.isreview.org/pdfs/09/soldiers_revolt.pdf

"The enemy is anybody that is going to get you killed."
-- Joseph Heller, Catch-22

The ruling elite have never, in the history of the world, stepped aside to let the people go untaxed and unruled. Since they won't step aside, they must be pushed from power. Hard.
Capitalism equals war- protests didnt end Nam
Capitalism equals war- protests didnt end Nam

get of it. 23.Mar.2003 21:20

me

> In denying the average citizen the ability to get where he/she wants to go or to close down a business puts you in the category of terrorist. <

Excuse me but when did blowing up buildings and killing innocent people(without the "official" declaration of war)get put in the same catagory as terrorism? Are you saying that a little traffic jam and a slow business day TERRIFIES you? If so then you havent seen anything yet.

>you simultaneously shout down or outright prevent your opponents from speaking. <

Its obvious that you are the "opponant" here that you speak of..but strangely enough i still see your post here...man, i'd wish someone would censor your bullshit because you make me want to vomit.

>freedom of speech DOES NOT extend to acts of criminality, and certainly does not include assaulting police officers or vandalizing property<

Since when did police officers who are supposed to "protect" citizens extend to acts of beating peaceful protestors senseless? Since you beautifully state that assault is a crime then we need to put a crapload of officers in a jail cell...and i can tell you...it'll fill the jail cells up a hell of alot quicker then the 150 PEACEFUL demonstrators did on thursday. And while we are at it we should disclocate some of their arms, fondle a few, make fun of the gay one and then restrict them from using a toilet...since this is obviously what they do to peaceful protestors its only fair they get if not the same treatment a hell of alot worse for indiscrimenantly beating the crap out of people.
And since our centuries old constitution states free speech then i freely say FUCK YOU.

What &quot;deconstruct&quot; means on Indymedia 23.Mar.2003 22:54

Cass

Dear Defenders of Pro-war Rallies,

When you see the word "de-construct" in a discussion on Indymedia, it's a college term and means the student should analyze the language, context, and full meaning of a subject under study. It is not a carpentry term. The original letter asked us to understand and discuss why people would go to the trouble to advocate for a policy that has sufficient advocacy.

I walked down to the area where the pro-war folks were waving flags at the downtown office folks who were driving home after work. There were two satellite-type TV vans there, and since I was AFRAID of the advocates of the murder of Iraqis, I went to one of the vans to ask my question.

"Where is the REAL rally?" and the nice man told me- two blocks up and one block over.

Now can we deconstruct this topic?