portland independent media center  
images audio video
newswire article portland metro

imperialism & war

Thousands behave like children in Downtown PDX... Claim protest was success

Radicals taught us more moderate anti-war liberals a lesson today by behaving precisely like those who we are demonstrating against. All the while, they were patting themselves on the back and prophetizing about what a great job they did...

You guys rock!
Yup, you guys rock, especially you radicals.

You continue to take away the credibility of those of us who are anti-war, but also tolerant of those around us.

You continue to give the right-wing wackos like Lars Larson and Michael Savage fodder to continue their ultra-conservative crusades. They're right: you care more about inconvenience than really changing anyone's opinions.

You continue to push the liberal agenda toward the political margin by insisting that your view is the only correct one.

You continue to stain the political view of us mainstream liberals -- who are fighting for real change in the world -- by throwing your radical temper tantrums.

You continue to attack police personnel not because they attack you first, but just because they're cops.

Intolerance. Judgement-happy. Prejudiced. Arrogant. Aren't these things that we're supposed to be fighting against?

homepage: homepage: http://db0.net

here here 20.Mar.2003 21:46

as;dfjkl

haha hell yeah.
Martin Luther King needs to give these kids a good spanking.

that makes no sense 20.Mar.2003 21:46

villageidiot

i can't follow that at all. is your "return" key stuck?

Spank me 20.Mar.2003 22:09

Sally

spank me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Both Sides are Right and Can Coexist 20.Mar.2003 22:14

Portland Renaissance Human peaceonearth@webaissance.com

Radical FreeState Activists

and

Peaceful Pro-Peace Activists

share many common goals

but believe in different methods of getting there

It's Malcom X vs. Martin Luther King

Flag Burning vs. Candlelight Vigil

Blocking Traffic vs. Peaceful City-sanctioned Mass March

Can they co-exist? Are they one and the same?

One thing I can say: If you are on TV in front of the world you need to tell your message to the cameras - because that is what the "American People" are seeing. Don't shun the TV cameras, flash a victory sign, or curse them. Talk into the TV cameras and through them to the People!

I saw a big sign on 12 KPTV:
FUCK CORPORATE MEDIA Is that the message you want to send?

YES AND NO

Show the American People you are intelligent, peace-loving, freedom-loving people.

Personally, I don't see where the flag burning and vandalism gets you. I think it hurts the cause. Except for one thing: it represents absolute Freedom. The Freedom to be Wild - do anything you want. The Portland Police deserve some credit for letting you do that. Or do they? Perhaps that is a slave mentality.

Perhaps you could try to articulate your beliefs for the people watching you in their living rooms. Explain why you are burning the flags. Why are you dancing in the streets? Flashing victory signs during an anti-war demonstration.

How many people are dying in Iraq as all this is happening? Who supported Saddam Hussein because he was fighting Iran? (Hint: Ronald Reagon, George Bush I et al) Why did the Iranians overthrow the Shah of Iran and take American hostages in 1979, during Jimmy Carter's administration? Why did the Americans and Britsh install the Shah of Iran in 1953?

Source: http://www.mage.com/TLbody.html
"1951- 1953 -- Iran's Majles passed a law sponsored by the nationalistic (soon to be prime minister) Dr. Mossadeq to nationalize Iran's oil from British control. The British, enraged by the threat to their oil concessions, froze all of Iran's Sterling assets and took their case to the International Court of Justice. The Court ruled in Iran's favor. Undeterred, the British placed a total trade embargo on Iran and enforced it with their navy, leading to the collapse of Iran's economy. Citing the threat of a communist takeover, British Intelligence and the CIA sponsored a coup to topple Dr. Mossadeq's government. In the midst of the coup, the young Shah, having thought the plan had failed, left the country. Shortly thereafter, Dr. Mossadeq's government was overthrown and the Shah was put back in power.

1962-1963 -- The Shah introduced his White Revolution. It consisted of major land reform, workers' rights and women's suffrage, among other initiatives. His reforms did not develop as planned due to poor execution. In a series of public speeches, Ayatollah Khomeini attacked these reforms. He was arrested and then exiled."

Peace on Earth Brothers and Sisters

Love is All You Need

One World

One Love

Renaissance on Earth


Reform v. Revolution 20.Mar.2003 22:16

Jesse

Reform or Revolution?

Are revolutions/revolutionary tactics ever necessary? Where is the point of no return?

Is this movement in Portland just a public relations statement or an organic expression of what people are feeling? The time for politics and debate are over so far as many people are concerned...now for many they will do as they feel as individuals...without being guided by an organization that is orchestrated.

Further consider what I always say for a laugh: Everything in moderation.....including moderation.

Open your eyes 21.Mar.2003 01:31

Raven

Like it or dislike it. Radicals will keep doing it. Complain all you want, but your failure has nothing to do with radicals. You just find radicals an easy scapegoat.

You may want to be tolerant of those around you. In doing so, you are tolerating the raping of forests, the enslaving and killing of people and animals, and the commodification of everything in order to turn a profit.

When I start to see liberals like you put it on the line, each day, in how you work, eat, and live, then I will have a general respect. However, most of the people who think and speak just as you are in this article, spend the majority of their time supporting the system that needs changing.

I do not respect that and until you actually start devoting your life to real change, your opinion does not matter much to me. Your words are cheap

response to the radicals at the protest 21.Mar.2003 02:14

peaceful student protestor

On October 31, 2000, here in Portland, George W. Bush stated:

'They said, 'You know, this issue doesn't seem to resignate with the people.' And I said, 'You know something? Whether it resignates or not doesn't matter to me because I stand for doing what's the right thing.' "

What is the right thing? I believe that this is standing up for your own rights, and the rights of others. I believe that the right thing is to educate the masses with several different viewpoints, giving them the facts. I believe that the right thing is showing the president that many people do not agree with him, and do this in a respectful, peaceful manner.

Today, Thursday, March 20th, at 3pm, my friend and I joined a well organized student protest going throughout the streets of downtown. It was an amazing protest! People kept coming out of the woodworks to join us. We chanted in solidarity, walking on the street by permission of the city, passing by numerous offices, apartment buildings, and even stopped in front of the federal building! We were flashed peace signs from bystanders, and were generally supported by the public.

A few hours later, my friend and I joined the 5pm protest. As I understand it, many people intended to use this protest as a way to get arrested for civil disobdience. I watched as one young adult male, nearby, stripped naked and continued to march. We left a while later, feeling uncomfortable, as the protest became more radical. Swear words were thrown into the chants, which I feel is an inappropriate way to gain the support of others. I learned later that the protest continued down these lines. That a flag was burned. Of the formation of 'Free State' through the blocking of a major street and bridge. Of the policemen and women in riot gear. In response to a different comment on portland indymedia, 'mocking raven' proclaimed:

'The point of blocking a bridge, by sitting on the freeway (Which I did) is to make the point that your car, and your infatuation with it, is a major reason why we are dropping bombs.'

I understand that people believe that they need to do whatever they can to get the word out that they do not support the war, but I do not see this as an effective way. How will making it hard for people to get home make them realize that we are at war over oil? Rather, they will just see this as a nuisance.

How does this legtimate the position of being against the war? Several hours of television coverage of 'Free State' has now made its way into the minds of others, forming their view of the anti-war movement. This coverage is of just a few dozen of the several thousands of people that spent the day marching peacefully, chanting 'support the troops, bring them home,' instead of burning the flag. Yet this is what is going to pervade the minds of the public who watched the news tonight.

Even before Bush came into office, he made his position known that he would be doing what he believed was 'right,' even if the people disagreed. If we want him to listen to us, to hear our cries for peace, we need to take a stand that will be respected by others, not seen as a nuisance. If we cannot start at the federal level, we must start at the local level, and work our way up, gaining respect and educating others along the way. This is not going to be done by doing radical activities, such as stripping naked, burning the flag, and blocking traffic. If you want to educate others, provide them with the facts, rather than with the anger and frustration that occurs when they cannot get home to their loved ones. Stand high and proud of who you are and what you believe in. Just do this in a respectful manner, not with a confrontational attitude. And most importantly, do not give up, as 'there ain't no power like the power of the people, 'cause the power of the people don't stop.'

response to the radicals at the protest 21.Mar.2003 02:16

peaceful student protestor

On October 31, 2000, here in Portland, George W. Bush stated:

'They said, 'You know, this issue doesn't seem to resignate with the people.' And I said, 'You know something? Whether it resignates or not doesn't matter to me because I stand for doing what's the right thing.' "

What is the right thing? I believe that this is standing up for your own rights, and the rights of others. I believe that the right thing is to educate the masses with several different viewpoints, giving them the facts. I believe that the right thing is showing the president that many people do not agree with him, and do this in a respectful, peaceful manner.

Today, Thursday, March 20th, at 3pm, my friend and I joined a well organized student protest going throughout the streets of downtown. It was an amazing protest! People kept coming out of the woodworks to join us. We chanted in solidarity, walking on the street by permission of the city, passing by numerous offices, apartment buildings, and even stopped in front of the federal building! We were flashed peace signs from bystanders, and were generally supported by the public.

A few hours later, my friend and I joined the 5pm protest. As I understand it, many people intended to use this protest as a way to get arrested for civil disobdience. I watched as one young adult male, nearby, stripped naked and continued to march. We left a while later, feeling uncomfortable, as the protest became more radical. Swear words were thrown into the chants, which I feel is an inappropriate way to gain the support of others. I learned later that the protest continued down these lines. That a flag was burned. Of the formation of 'Free State' through the blocking of a major street and bridge. Of the policemen and women in riot gear. In response to a different comment on portland indymedia, 'mocking raven' proclaimed:

'The point of blocking a bridge, by sitting on the freeway (Which I did) is to make the point that your car, and your infatuation with it, is a major reason why we are dropping bombs.'

I understand that people believe that they need to do whatever they can to get the word out that they do not support the war, but I do not see this as an effective way. How will making it hard for people to get home make them realize that we are at war over oil? Rather, they will just see this as a nuisance.

How does this legtimate the position of being against the war? Several hours of television coverage of 'Free State' has now made its way into the minds of others, forming their view of the anti-war movement. This coverage is of just a few dozen of the several thousands of people that spent the day marching peacefully, chanting 'support the troops, bring them home,' instead of burning the flag. Yet this is what is going to pervade the minds of the public who watched the news tonight.

Even before Bush came into office, he made his position known that he would be doing what he believed was 'right,' even if the people disagreed. If we want him to listen to us, to hear our cries for peace, we need to take a stand that will be respected by others, not seen as a nuisance. If we cannot start at the federal level, we must start at the local level, and work our way up, gaining respect and educating others along the way. This is not going to be done by doing radical activities, such as stripping naked, burning the flag, and blocking traffic. If you want to educate others, provide them with the facts, rather than with the anger and frustration that occurs when they cannot get home to their loved ones. Stand high and proud of who you are and what you believe in. Just do this in a respectful manner, not with a confrontational attitude. And most importantly, do not give up, as 'there ain't no power like the power of the people, 'cause the power of the people don't stop.'

Ahhhhhh 21.Mar.2003 07:51

Drum

We do not need to get Bush to listen to us, we need to take him out of power. Stop thinking in terms of asking for the bad guys to change! They are not going to. Take your own life in your hands.

Oh, and btw, many of the working class people of this country do not mind some swear words. It is generally the white middle class college educated folk (a minority of the population) which is uncomfortable.

Glad I'm not the only one who feels this way 21.Mar.2003 08:49

Aaron mitigated-disaster@db0.net

<snip>
I do not respect that and until you actually start devoting your life to real change, your opinion does not matter much to me. Your words are cheap
</snip>

Ahh... now we see the truth. Non-conformist radicals require us to conform to their way of thinking, and if we don't, we get threatened with hostile actions.

Is this Portland or Pyonyang?

For the record, I do devote my life to real change. I work every day as part of a group devoted to build a better way of educating our youth. I can't see how graffiti and hellraising is a more effective.


Smashy smashy good!! Goo-goo!! Ga-ga!! 21.Mar.2003 12:01

chris

"I do not respect that and until you actually start devoting your life to real change, your opinion does not matter much to me. Your words are cheap."

Wow, what a remarkable coincidence! Self-righteous, more radical-than-thou morons don't matter much to me. Their words are pretty cheap.

Cars are bad, so everybody should just stop driving them and then all of the problems in the world will magically disappear!

Your self-serving outbursts of hostility mean nothing, do nothing, and convince no one.

Yes and ... yes 21.Mar.2003 17:09

Johan johan@reedwood.org

This ancient debate continues - and it should!!

Violent or coercive protest, or protest that is not accessible to two-way communication, is not consistent with my values or my message, and that is probably true of most of the participants in the larger emergency rally.

I am also concerned by the mixed message that such exhibitionism may give to the general public and to those outside the activist subculture.

HOWEVER, you naughty people have some usefulness. *S* When the "powers that be" step beyond some line of decency, they will reap a whirlwind. I don't believe in that whirlwind, I don't want to be part of it, but the reality is, when governments become abusive, there will be an abusive reaction. Our politicians find it convenient to criticize television and video games for making us more violent. What do they think pictures of innocent people being bombed with equipment our taxes have purchased will do to some people?

I don't really want to sound condescending, but this is how I feel about the most radical fringe of the protest movement, those who are willing to be truly aggressive and confrontational in exercising uncivil disobedience. To me, you seem like reactionaries. You do prove that government misbehavior will cost something after all. If we more "moderate" people don't like that, maybe we need to take some responsibility for making OUR response to the government more costly and less cooperative, even as we seek to keep the lines of communication open.

As for the mixed message put out by the media, it is also up to us moderates to figure out how our media relations can be more effective, how we can be more creative and persistent, and how we can object more strongly to the marginalization and stereotyping of dissent. The media people know perfectly well what the general tenor of dissent is, and they focus on the extremes not from ignorance, but because it helps them connect with their market. We need our own forms of assertive engagement.