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Why is "UFOs - Proving the Phenomenon is Real, The Case... "being suppressed?

Why does IMC insist on suppressing this factual information. I suspect IMC censors more than you think.
You don't know what you're missing.
Before anyone gets crazy 25.Nov.2002 23:03

Agent Orange

I am the original poster of the above mentioned article. "angry" I initially thought had perhaps jumped to conclusions.

I mean, "no story to tell" is just a bug and not any sort of crazy IMC editorial board conspiracy. That is what I believe. I was going to simply go to the original site and get the article and repost it but strangely I could not retrieve it.

I don't have any reason to believe that anyone is suppressing anything despite this coincidence.

I mean, the article I posted wasn't THAT good.

But basically the article said that the standard of proof applied to UFO research is often set at that of natural phenomenon, like river flows or percipitation. But if UFO's are actually "manned" the we aren't talking about readily testable phenomenon. Unless someone can get these "others" to sit still for our analysis, which I think is unlikely. The gist is UFO's are "unnatural" phenomenon and can be proven without rigorous physical evidence, like in a court of law, not a scientific journal. This is not to say that physical evidence is lacking.

Indeed, radar counts as physical evidence. Check this out

 http://brumac.8k.com/JAL1628/Jal1628.html

So, to recap, nobody freak out, shit happens, there is plenty of UFO info for anyone so inclined.

UFOs not suppressed 25.Nov.2002 23:47

pdx indy volunteer #6082 imc-portland-editorial@indymedia.org

to angry: Agent Oragne is right: "no story to tell" is a database glitch and can be easily fixed when it is spotted. the story you mentioned is now visible again. indymedia techs are working on a solution to this problem, but it entails some big stuff that will take some more time and energy to address. if you'd like to help with technical stuff, write to  technical@pdximc.org. donations of computer hardware are currently be accepted.

when you see the "no story to tell" error, write to  imc-portland-editorial@indymedia.org and include the URL of the article, and it will be fixed.

Agent Orange, got some goodies for you 26.Nov.2002 01:35

concerned historian

The website that Agent Orange provides is good, but it's a major eye-full. It also lacks the one key point of reference: former FAA head of Accidents and Investigations, John Callhan. Before you go over there, read the following and listen to the five minute mp3 I've uploaded. It's Callhan's testimony before the National Press Club conference held on May 9, 2001. John Callhan is working with the Disclosure Project  http://www.disclosureproject.org/

In the next message, I will post an interview with Dr. Steven Greer (director of Disclosure Project) and Dr. Carol Rosin, who was the personal assistant of Wernher Von Braun in the last years of his life. Von Braun was the ultimate "insider," one of the German scientists that came over to the U.S. through Project Paperclip at the end of WWII. He's the godfather of modern rocketry. See:  http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Library/Giants/vonBraun/

Anyway, I digress from the JAL 1628 case. At the 8 minute and 40 second mark in the second mp3 I'll upload, you'll find Greer's discussion of Callhan and JAL 1628, but if you listen to the entire show, you'll have context about what the Disclosure Project is doing.

The sighting by the crew of JAL flight #1628 and the US radar operators on the ground is indeed one of the best documented and absolutely irrefutable cases where physical evidence (radar data print-out and video) exists, and further, is in the possession of a retired high-level FAA official (read: not in government hands) willing to provide it to the media and the U.S. Congress. In addition, if a real investigation was conducted by Congress, they might also be able to get access to supplemental radar data from the two stations that reported having the object on radar, as well as other info, perhaps. The point is, sufficient data exists outside the government for this particular case. It doesn't prove alien origin, but it proves that something really fishy is going on. This craft was described as being about the size of two aircraft carriers -- friggin massive.

Now, anyone that has any experience at all in investigating covert operations, the intelligence world and black budget projects (all real stuff) knows that a great deal of our nation's true history is hidden from public knowledge. You can believe it's government craft, or alien, but to argue that the entire subject is bogus is to show your ignorance. Investigation of UFO phenomena and government projects is a reasonable and entirely valid arena of research. There's a whole heck of a lot of crap out there, to be sure -- lot's of whacko people. But there's more to this story than the skeptics and Uncle Sam would have you believe. Uncle Sam, after all, would like you to think that we're going to invade Iraq to free the Iraqi people, that we entered WWI in order to make the world "safe for democracy," and on and on and on..... As the legionary journalist I.F. Stone used to say to his journalist students, the first and most important lesson to remember is that "governments lie."

Regarding that FBI memo that was posted on PDX earlier today, I must say that it's odd that the FBI would have that on their website. Documents released are redacted to the extreme, and to put a document on their webserver would mean that an extra step was taken, suggesting that an accidental release of something without sufficient redaction would be even more unlikely. But who knows... It seems like a smoking gun, but the fact that it's just hanging out there like that makes one really wonder what's up with that.

Anyway, if anyone wants to get the document without actually going to the FBI site, you can get it by going here:

 http://web.archive.org/web/*/foia.fbi.gov/ufo/ufo8.pdf

and click on the Aug 17, 2000 link (save it to your hard drive rather than opening it through the browser). Archive.org is a very handy and professional site. Go to the top page and you can learn about it.

------------

Now, for you, Agent Orange: I've read a number of your posts on the disclosure project and related issues. I can tell you're pretty well read on this subject. I know the above isn't news to you.

I've got a third mp3 I'll upload you'll dig, and it will be of value to those following this thread. Also, you should listen to this -- a personal recommendation:

 http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2002/11/1543603.php

--
concerned historian
Agent Orange, got some goodies for you
Agent Orange, got some goodies for you

Weaponization of space / Disclosure Project 26.Nov.2002 03:00

concerned historian

At the 8 minute and 40 second point, you will hear Steven Greer discuss John Callhan and JAL 1628.

This is the "Seven Generations" radio show, which aired on August 7, 2001 on KPFA  http://www.kpfa.org

The United States has military doctrine to extend its empire into space, for the control of the ultimate high ground as it were. This is public record. You can research it by looking up "Vision 2020" and "space" at google and start following the trail. There are other public documents as well, but "Vision 2020" will get you on the trail. Anyway, Dr. Greer and Dr. Rosin have some rather interesting perspectives on all of this, in the context of weaponization of space. You'll hear that in this radio show. I don't know if I'd go as far as to say I agree with them on that specific issue. But I'm open minded enough to consider these topics (given the documented and irrefutable physical evidence of cases like JAL 1628).

Trolls will post and attempt to discredit. Whatever.

Honest folk will post and say this is not related to politics and the mission of IMC. But the fact is, government cover-ups and the daily goings on within the national security community is very much an issue worthy of open discussion.


--
concerned historian
Weaponization of space / Disclosure Project
Weaponization of space / Disclosure Project

Weaponization of space / streaming version 26.Nov.2002 03:18

concerned historian


stupid little visitors 26.Nov.2002 09:15

military madness

"It seems like a smoking gun"


No it doesn't. It seems more like an implausible arrangement of pixels. Read the document again.


Do you really think the Air Force would employ someone to investigate "the government"? Since when was the Air Force not part of "the government"?

What are the odds of an advanced civilization capable of interstellar space-travel being knocked out of the Earth's atmosphere by the electromagnetic transmissions from a simple human radar?

Surely an intelligent species would have shielded their systems to cope with the much more violent stellar emissions from the system they intended to visit before they set out in the first place?

to military madness 26.Nov.2002 15:43

billy jean

" What are the odds of an advanced civilization capable of interstellar space-travel being knocked out of the Earth's atmosphere by the electromagnetic transmissions from a simple human radar?...

Surely an intelligent species would have shielded their systems to cope with the much more violent stellar emissions... "


that's a great question.

however, this is assuming that....

1)The ships that crashed were the same ships that brought them from the vast nether regions of outer space.

2)the pilots traveled interstellar distances.

3)the radar transmissions did in fact render the vehicle inoperable.

4)The technology used to design the ships followed the same evolution as our own technologies and would have the same values.

5) "alien" technology should be perfect and behave in a way that we understand.


those are 5 VERY VERY big assumptions and while I am not a scientist I do know enough about science to know that one small incorrect assumption can ruin and entire theory.

so far all we have is an FOIA document over 50 years old claiming that the investigators BELIEVED the radar made the vehicles crash and a lengthy roster of military and intel hawks (see disclosure project) that claim the same.

we don't have enough info yet. there are far too many questions to be answered to be dismissive.

Damaged link 26.Nov.2002 17:30

tom

I tried to download this file  http://web.archive.org/web/*/foia.fbi.gov/ufo/ufo8.pdf

but it quits at 900K of 5.4 meg. Apparently the aliens or the FBI don't want us to see it.

link 26.Nov.2002 17:51

.

then go to the fbi site and get the master

I suspect... 26.Nov.2002 18:34

Indy vol

I suspect that the "aliens" had pacemakers and the radar (similar to a microwave oven) caused them to all have heart attacks thus crashing their ship. Surely the "spacecraft" was designed to withstand radiation, it was their pacemakers that caused them to crash. FACT!

Heavens Gate 26.Nov.2002 19:40

salvation

Whether Hale-Bopp has a "companion" or not is irrelevant from our perspective. However, its arrival is joyously very significant to us at "Heaven's Gate." The joy is that our Older Member in the Evolutionary Level Above Human (the "Kingdom of Heaven") has made it clear to us that Hale-Bopp's approach is the "marker" we've been waiting for -- the time for the arrival of the spacecraft from the Level Above Human to take us home to "Their World" -- in the literal Heavens. Our 22 years of classroom here on planet Earth is finally coming to conclusion -- "graduation" from the Human Evolutionary Level. We are happily prepared to leave "this world" and go with Ti's crew.
If you study the material on this website you will hopefully understand our joy and what our purpose here on Earth has been. You may even find your "boarding pass" to leave with us during this brief "window."

We are so very thankful that we have been recipients of this opportunity to prepare for membership in Their Kingdom, and to experience Their boundless Caring and Nurturing.


 http://www.wave.net/upg/gate/index.htm

hey indy vol! 26.Nov.2002 19:42

I can make real arguments with real data

Can you even try to make a real argument without relying on your dismissal by ridicule crap? I bet you that you cant!

and by the way....

I am the one who posted that faux lamet vali post where he rattles on about "raking the leaves" and "FACT!" and all that crap.

Isn't it ironic that you are trying to ridicule the posts of the same person whose wit you are trying to emulate?

dontcha think?

talkin' loud, sayin' nothing :) 26.Nov.2002 21:18

hologrAfrican

so "i can make real arguments with real data"--how the hell can you make your data *real* to me (me who is not you), you idiot? (sorry for calling you an idiot, but someone less than an idiot could trace the logic in your claim).

so you posted a fake "Lamet Vali" article, so what (proud?)

how would you *know* what particular wit someone is trying to emulate (uh, how?)?

dontcha think?? no-don't cha--you--think? :) (heh heh)

so now, make/develop your "real arguments", please--use real data if you have to.

where did you come from? 26.Nov.2002 22:42

jungle jim

"so "I can make real arguments with real data"--how the hell can you make your data *real* to me (me who is not you), you idiot? (sorry for calling you an idiot, but someone less than an idiot could trace the logic in your claim). "


uhhh, you are going to have to rephrase that one for me.

"so you posted a fake "Lamet Vali" article, so what (proud?)"

"how would you *know* what particular wit someone is trying to emulate (uh, how?)?"

no not proud. in fact, a bit ashamed. I felt bad that the post lit up PDX IMC with a slew of fake LAmet Vali posts thereby MAKING more Spam than reducing it, which was my honest original intent. For weeks there were fake lamet vali posts not all of them were that creative. some did include amusing mullet pics. IN the end what I did was deleterious and for that I am not proud.


I do, however, think the circumstances between our IMC vol friend and I are amusing if not ironic. It is very clear that he is, as the kids would say, 'biting my style" which is fine. I have seen him and/or others do it before and I REALLY couldn't care less. I just think it's funny that he would use this 'term' or whatnot to discredit the person who created it. Mentioning it is a way of drawing attention to how limited his/her creative abilities are.

I suppose it is also ironic that a gimmick I used to discredit the Lamet Vali would be, in turn, used on me for the same purpose and in a poetic way it is just.

Unlike the Lamet Vali, however I really care about the PDX IMC and all of its varied agendas and communities.

anyway, all this is really quite unimportant in respects to the other things on the table.

"so now, make/develop your "real arguments" "

You must be new and/or on cough syrup. Go here to see my data:
 http://portland.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=35330&group=webcast

No Story To Tell 27.Nov.2002 19:23

hologrAfrican

'You must be new and/or on cough syrup. Go here to see my data:
 http://portland.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=35330&group=webcast'

--thanks for the insult, at least you can think now that i *presume* you to possibly be 'human'...(i just followed the above link and i got this page:

"no story to tell yet - database error
please email editorial
with the story id number in the subject line"

--rephrasing of the "your data is not real to *me*" argument--

okay, since "you" are not "me", you can not dictate to me, in anyway, what *I* am supposed to 'know'. since you are not me, you can not tell me what "me" entails UNLESS you are indeed me (figure it our for yourself).

" IN the end what I did was deleterious and for that I am not proud"

--did it take you until the 'end' to figure out that you were harming your cause? tsk tsk :)

"a gimmick I used to discredit the Lamet Vali"

--and this would make the *real* "LWV" happy because, you admitted your childish stupidity? (why fake the funk? as well, why admit it? hmmmm..AAR (At Any Rate), at least you've made the *admission* (this IS the truth, right?)

thanks for the timely response anyway :)
i think convoluted is a good word to e-spout here now.

anyway, no need to be ashamed (at least, this is what someone told me cuz i do tend to wallow in shame)--shit happens :)

even without IMC i'm still aware.

"You must be new and/or on cough syrup. Go here to see my data:
 http://portland.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=35330&group=webcast"

--once in grade school, i brought a bottle of Vick's 44D to school and was drinking it straight cuz i had "a cold"; i knocked myself out and i ended up laying my head in this cutely unassuming girl Courtney's lap. i woke up in an hour (surprisingly, the teacher didn't even notice i was drunk). mmmm, cough syrup...

no story to tell 27.Nov.2002 19:29

mee

yeah, no story to tell is a bug with the PDX IMC software. it happens.

the editors know about the bug and are trying to fix it.

try again later.


"once in grade school, i brought a bottle of Vick's 44D to school and was drinking it straight cuz i had "a cold"; i knocked myself out and i ended up laying my head in this cutely unassuming girl Courtney's lap. i woke up in an hour (surprisingly, the teacher didn't even notice i was drunk). mmmm, cough syrup..."


you know its funny cause after I asked if you were on cough syrup (no offense btw) I went and drank some nyquil myself so I could sleep. :/

heh