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imperialism & war


Remember British leader Phony Blair's "Dossier on Iraq" purporting to be "intelligence" on Iraqi weapons of mass destruction and links to terrorism?
Check out this link to a "Dossier on America" detailing just a few of the American crimes around the world.

homepage: homepage: http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=217597&group=webcast

Sick stuff 16.Nov.2002 19:40

Bush Admirer

More tired rhetoric from the radical left. Geez, give it a break.

Kicks and Highs on which you can't rely 16.Nov.2002 20:12

John Flashcroft

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Bejebers! 16.Nov.2002 20:40

Lamet W Vali

What the fuck was he singing about burning credit cards?

they aren't that radical 16.Nov.2002 21:38

p. u.

its just sort of like a stale fart, that hasn't quite died out yet. everybody is just waiting for it to completely go away..


some thoughts 16.Nov.2002 22:34


I guess it's easier to call something rhetoric than actually challenge the factual points. At least when I point out rhetoric coming from the mainstream media I can offer facts to back up my case. With all the time the spammers put into monitoring and replying to this site you'd think they could come up with at least one decent argument. But what am I thinking, I've tried to engage all of you in discussion only to have you not respond to any points that I've made. It makes me wonder if you can even form a logical argument.

Dear someone 16.Nov.2002 23:20

Lamet W Vali

I read the dossier and agree with pretty much everything.

What are you gonna do about it though? Go carry a sign at a "peace rally" suggesting that the US spend the military budget on schools and healthcare? Good luck.

I'll be drinking a beer in a bar with a window seat just waiting for the police to administer some "stick justice" on you. Maybe then I can sneak out without paying.

What do you want? Everybody to "show unity" and wring their hands over how fucked up the world is? I got over that a long time ago, now I'm just waiting for the finale.

Dear Lamet W. Vali... 17.Nov.2002 08:35

this thing here

maybe you should dress up in a uniform, and shine up some boots. you could be one of those annoying guys who's always hanging around the police, trying to help a little too much, sorta like a wanna be officer.

shit, hey, why not give that TIPS line a few quick buzzes? it doesn't matter if your charges are false, the intelligence authorites will check them out no matter what. maybe you could get some of those damn liberal commies blacklisted, so they can't fly accross america to meet with their families over the holidays! that's called standing up for american values, right lamet w. vali?

so get to work!

kids say he darndest things 17.Nov.2002 11:03

Lamet W Vali

Soooo, you're suggesting that I'm a closet authoritarian? Sorry bub, but if your feeble larvae like brain is unable to grasp my superior logic, please feel free to go out and get your head caved in by police, and your death mocked by most of the public. I'm trying to do you a favor, but you're just to dim to get it.

yeah, i know... 17.Nov.2002 11:23

this thing here

>you're suggesting that I'm a closet authoritarian?<

>feel free to go out and get your head caved in by police,<

Sorry, but i respect individual choice 17.Nov.2002 14:13


I'm not about to twist anyone's arm if they choose to be self destructive. If it's your desire to provoke police, who are very predictable, go for it baby. Follow your "desire". I'll just sit back and laugh at the consequences. I'm waiting.

Get over yourself, Lamet 17.Nov.2002 20:56

GRINGO STARS gringo_stars@attbi.com

I suggest you DO something about the state of affairs, Lame One. You saw the dossier. Doing nothing is doing the same as cheering fascists on. It would be illegal of me to heartily recommend violent revolution (wink-wink-nudge-nudge-saynomore), since the political elite don't respond well to peace-and-love activism (other than laughing). But beyond that, I recommend at least showing up for the peace-and-love rallies in order to show HOW MANY people are calling the "leaders" on their schitt. That does have a good propagandic effect on passersby and neutrals. It takes 2 hours tops, no skin off your back. Then you can go back to acting superior in an anonymous way online.

It's just that you are such a wuss. Solidarity allows you to get away with things you apparently think you get burnt for. Did you know you can unarrest people and get away with it? Did you know that it's possible to run away from cops and then they can't catch you? These things happen, and have happened. You're an anarcho-syndacalist right, Lamey? So act! Directly! Oops you types hate it when told to do stuff. Sorry. But you know it's true.

Also very possible: revolution. When people act together, very mighty power bases can crumble, and it's the fascist bootlickers of the fallen regime that pay the heavy prices, not the new kids on the block. I'll say no more.


GRINGO 17.Nov.2002 22:47

Lamet W Vali

I agree with you on most of this. I would suggest that illegal activity be saved for one of two circumstances though:

a) when you can get away with it. (and by this I also mean no cameras, even if you have a mask because that is "propaganda of the deed", which I don't personally agree with) Acts should have value in themselves without propaganda considerations, sometimes the prop. considerations wind up out weighing the act in the mind of organizers and the job becomes sloppy.

b) if the consequences are small compared to the potential gain. Life in prison, or even death could be a worthwhile trade for some truly sweet acts. But those are very, very rare. For example, killing the president is not wise because you'll be killed and Cheney will take his place. I can't think of a case where the potential upside absolutely offsets the risks, but I'll get back to you.

Quit harshing me.

wow, just need to point something out 17.Nov.2002 23:26


Wow, I can't believe Gringo and Lamet actually agree on something. Either one of you please correct me if I'm wrong but are we really all in agreement that protesting is an ineffectectual way to create change?

I never thought I'd see the day when there was so much agreement. And I apologize to both Lamet and FWR who have been much more responsive lately. If you want to engage in dialogue than it does not matter what your views are I would hope that others would be interested in discussing real ideas and not simply throwing insults back and forth.

Anyway, answer your questions Lamet... well I think you actually answered it for me: "Acts should have value in themselves without propaganda considerations". I'm not big into rallies, like most activists I know. I wouldn't go so far as to say they are not important. For many people it is important to display their disagreement with the direction the country is heading. They have every right to do this. But, again, I think most people in this day and age know that this is not a good way to enact meaningful change.

So, sometimes I go to rallies, other itmes not. Sometimes it feels like the right thing for me to do, and other times it does not.

Unfortunately, your questions are big ones and I can't afford to be up late responding to them. As for what I'm going to do about it. The quick answer is that I will use my skills and passions to the best of my ability to promote the ideals that I agree with at this point in time. And the great things it that everyone can do this and it works well because everyone has different skills and passions.

As for what I want, well, I suspect that's a hard question for anyone to completely answer. There is something important about unity. Not in the sense of sameness, of opinion, ideaology, action, etc, which means not in the sense of getting together and complaining or agreeing with one another about how "fucked up the world is". That is definitely not something that I want.

One thing I would want is for everyone to acknowledge that there is no one right to live. If we could just get it through our heads that no one has all the answers, that no one has everything figured out maybe we could start to evolve our lifestyles. Probably by looking at what works and at what doesn't. For example, any unsustainable lifestyle simply will not work, by definition. So like you, and like many people in this country, I too sometimes find myself drinking in a bar waiting for the finale. That is, when the insanely unsustainable lifestyle that we call civilization finally crashes. Like most people today, I know that this will happen and my efforts are not so much to prevent it from happening but to soften the blow. That may seem like a horrible waste of time to you... in which case, it will be ahorrible waste of time for you. But then, isn't it always a horrible waste of time to try to live like someone else rather than to live as yourself.

Anyway, I've got to go and get some sleep. I sincerely hope you continue to dialogue with myself and others on this site.

Kinda funny how that happens... 17.Nov.2002 23:58

Lamet W Vali

Kinda funny how that happens when the IMC censors leave a thread alone until its conclusion.

You gotta break a few eggs to make an omlette. Or for the vegans out there, "you gotta drown a few soybeans to make tofu".

In response to someone, I concur.

BTW, the reason I'm feeling so generous is that my spam attack of Friday night apparently put the IMC tyrants back in their little cage and they've backed off on censoring me. They're going after FWR instead, that's probably why he hasn't chimed in here yet.

Agreed - NEXT on the Agenda... 18.Nov.2002 00:21

GRINGO STARS gringo_stars@attbi.com

Now that illegal acts are seen as helpful, we can move on to the next step: propaganda. How to convince people that activism/revolution is preferable to reformism/nintendoism/Hollywooding? Americans are comfortable. Through colonialism and imperialism, we enjoy a standard of living unparralleled in history, even including the third-worlding of our own population. We have street tribes (gangs) acting like selfish capitalists instead of the perfect revolutionaries that they would make. We have SUV-driving, cell-phone-talking "activists" who think that Democrats are Good and Republicans are Evil and aren't representative republics just grand? We have 95 percent of the population (I hope I'm wrong but it seems like it) ignorant of the capitalism-to-constant-war connection, and 40 percent of the population wondering about who is hotter; Britney or Shakira, and thinking of precious little else.

So what to do?

I think IndyMedia is great because it is a non-corporate news source, but it so often seems that everyone here either knows the score or are mental-masturbators looking to bait some commies. Putting the word out would help. But the corporate news shitstem is strong, almost impenetrable - ever try to explain to a fat idiot at a bar "Why everyone hates America?" Where to start? Every one of his assumptions is not only wrong, but every one of his sources are misleading AND innacurate AND unfair. My main point to the real-deal-virgins is to point out that activism will save them from another 9-11, which was brought on by U.S. wars of arrogance and ignorance. No one knew WHY Osama was pissed. We shouldn't give SO MANY people all over the world SO MUCH reason top want to kill us, we're only civilians! Then I remind the fat-asses at the bar (was that YOU, FWR?) that this is supposed to be a nation where "the people" are sovereign, not the leaders. They remember this from grade school and nod solemnly, yet have a hard time imagining that the good ole U$A would do such mean things. There is a fear of alternative news sources. THAT must be overcome. Because if people know what I know (not more than a lot of you on this site) then there would be a revolution overnight.

I hate to burst your bubble 18.Nov.2002 13:00


No individual is being targeted to be censored. Your actions and behaviors dictate the response you're given. If you behave in a disruptive and childish way such as flooding the newswire your posts are composted (or in Friday's extreme case, deleted) to allow the site to function. If you behave as an adult and post material for consideration, regardless of its viewpoint your material will not be hidden. Now, that is not to say you will not experience difficulties. There are some problems related to the site itself. The first is the database issue I wrote about elsewhere:

The database errors have become more frequent as the traffic has increased. Due to the design of the system, these errors can creep in, become cached, and stay for far longer than they should. Hopefully when the site is next upgraded it will be more secure and more scaleable. Until then, we just have to wait it out.

For the rest see  http://portland.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=34088&group=webcast

There is also sometimes an extremely long wait for material to be posted. If you interrupt this process the article is not added. I suspect this may have happened to some of the posters. It's certainly happened to me in the past. It doesn't mean that the article was deleted but that it was never posted in the first place. Personally, after I post I just minimize the browser and do other work and check on it periodically. Once it's done I verify that it's been added before closing the browser window so that I can always go back and recover the post in order to try again. It shouldn't be this much of an issue but I don't think this site was designed to handle the traffic it now has to deal with routinely. Again, hopefully on the next upgrade these problems will cease so that no one has to feel like they are being censored.