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the possibility of assassination is ignored

the telling thing about Paul Wellstone's death is the way the suspicions being voiced all around the world are being ignored by the mainstream press. Flashbacks to 1930's anyone?
Don't tell me Bush is gonna come on the TV with a wry smile and tell us how upset he is by the Senator's untimely end - I'll be sick - anyone reading this who's working at the NSA better wise up now! The criminal Nazi nutters now running our country are getting arrogant because we are being so gullible. wise up - rise up!
Tell-tale timing 27.Oct.2002 05:23

clark kent

The other telling thing of that assassination was the timing--the regime is obsessed with the news cycle. It happened in the midst of the hooplah of 'sniper caught' stories. They were trying to bury the plane crash story.

Of course that also implies that wrapping up the sniper case was just a matter of deciding when to swoop down on the patsy. That is very likely.

Amazing 27.Oct.2002 08:42


Was this an assisination? Not enough information to know yet.

Was there a black box? What does the wreckage look like? Was it really the weather?

What we do know is that Wellstone posed a formidable threat to the utterly unresponsive state of electoral politics. He stood firmly against the war in Iraq and was willing to forge alliances with the grass roots organizations. He also posed a threat to establishment democrats. For if he was able to succeed yet again with a populist platform, it would debunk the myth that democrats need to be oh so pro business and oh so pro war.

Wellstone was a dangerous man whose lynch pin position was a threat to the current climate of undemocratic politics as usual.

black box "destroyed" 27.Oct.2002 08:55

forwarded to me

And how convenient that on Fox news right now (I know, I
know...they're not that accurate. LOL) they're reporting that there
was "no flight data reporter" because it'd been destroyed in an
intense fire in the cockpit. Unbelieveable. I just thought I'd
interject that. I simply can't believe my ears. I mean, maybe it is
just a coincedence...

Ice on the wings 27.Oct.2002 09:52

Ice on the wings

The shape of the wing of an aircraft is what provides the lift. When ice gets on the wing, it no longer is an aircraft wing, but just a board that has no purpose, and thus the aircraft looses its aerodynamic properties and it becomes a very heavy bus being propelled through the air at 250 Miles per hour. Hence a crash is certain to follow. I don't know if this is what happened, because I am not on the Transportation safety board, and they don't know because they haven't investigated it yet. So unless you called the physic hotline and Ms. Cleo told you that he was assassinated, then this is just no more than more conspiracies under the bed...

I have a complete story about how Bill Clinton killed Ron Brown, but it too is unproven...

a dangerous man? please!!! 27.Oct.2002 10:02


He was completely marginalized. Sort of the like the congressional black caucus. A minority within a minority.

dangerous man??

hey, *FWR* 27.Oct.2002 10:27

the motive is *there*

April 24, 2001--Bu$h fears Tenacious, Popular Wellstone
John Nichols
Madison Capital Times (via Common Dreams NewsCenter)
But the level of involvement in the Wellstone race is remarkable. Coleman dropped a planned gubernatorial bid after two White House pressure sessions with Bush. And now that Coleman is leaning toward a Senate race, Bush, Cheney and Rove are pulling out all the stops to make sure they are in charge of the anti-Wellstone effort.

Published on Tuesday, April 24, 2001 in the Madison Capital Times
Bush Fears Tenacious, Popular Wellstone
by John Nichols

ST. PAUL U.S. Sen. Paul Wellstone had just finished rousing a crowd of 2,000 trade unionists, farmers, environmentalists and students with a fiery condemnation of George W. Bush's free trade policies, and now he had a problem. He couldn't get down the steps of the Minnesota State Capitol here to join the march protesting Bush's Free Trade Area of the Americas scheme.

Wellstone is just too popular with his constituents. He couldn't move in the face of a steady stream of men in Teamsters jackets, farm wives holding newborns, green-haired college kids and Catholic priests approaching to offer variations on the words of a steelworker who told Wellstone, "I am so damn proud to be able to say you're my senator."

Most of them also asked a question: "How come Bush hates you so much?"

Let there be no doubt as to the identity of George W. Bush's least favorite Democratic U.S. senator. It's Wellstone, the rabble-rousing Progressive who represents not just Minnesota but what remains of the fighting populist spirit of the Upper Midwest.

Elected in 1990 following a grass-roots campaign in which he toured the state on a beat-up school bus, Wellstone was the No. 1 target in 1996 for Republicans who thought the senator had doomed himself with a lonely vote against punitive "welfare reform" legislation. He won re-election with ease that year, proving to both the Republicans and to their whimpering Democratic allies that bashing the poor might not be nearly so smart a political move as Dick Morris thought.

As Wellstone prepares to seek a third term next year, it would be reasonable to assume that he might finally be in for some smooth political sailing. But reasonableness doesn't figure into the calculations of the Bush White House, where the president himself, Vice President Dick Cheney and political commissar Karl Rove practice the politics of vengeance.

The Bushies despise Wellstone, who unlike most Senate Democrats has been fighting spirited battles against the new administration's policies on everything from the environment to the tax cuts for the rich to military aid for the "Plan Colombia" drug war boondoggle. Other Democratic senators who face re-election contests in 2002 are, according to polls, more vulnerable than Wellstone. But the Bush camp has been focusing highest-level attention on "Plan Wellstone" its project to silence progressive opposition.

Last Tuesday as Minnesota House Majority Leader Tim Pawlenty was just hours away from announcing his intention to mount a Republican challenge to Wellstone, he got an urgent call from Rove asking him to step aside for Bush's preferred candidate, St. Paul Mayor Norm Coleman.

Then, on Wednesday morning, with just 90 minutes to go before his planned announcement, Pawlenty was driving his kids home from a dental appointment. The car phone rang, and Pawlenty found himself talking to Cheney. The vice president told Pawlenty that Bush did not want Coleman a party-switching former Democrat who chaired the losing Bush presidential campaign in Minnesota to face a difficult primary contest from a credible Republican.

Pawlenty finally "agreed" to step aside.

Minnesota is not the only state where the Bush camp is seeking to pick senators. But the level of involvement in the Wellstone race is remarkable. Coleman dropped a planned gubernatorial bid after two White House pressure sessions with Bush. And now that Coleman is leaning toward a Senate race, Bush, Cheney and Rove are pulling out all the stops to make sure they are in charge of the anti-Wellstone effort.

Even Pawlenty, as he was proclaiming himself a "team player," admitted that "it makes you wonder about the process and the integrity of the process."

What does Wellstone say? "I think the way to oppose George W. Bush is to stand up to him, to speak out when his policies are wrong, to put holds on bad legislation he's promoting. Obviously, that's not the sort of opposition Bush and Cheney approve of. The nice thing is that, even if they can dictate the Republican nominee, the people of Minnesota still get to choose their senator."


hey, *FWR*
hey, *FWR*

From a pilot... 27.Oct.2002 10:55

Marc the Pilot yyyy@earthlink.net

As a pilot certified to fly the type of airplane Wellstone was killed in, I think I can fill in some clues for y'all:

1. The airplane did not have a flight data recorder. Turboprop airplanes under 19 seats do not have them because they cost about $30,000 each. Some small jets do have them.

2. The airplane was on an "instrument approach" to the airport...a set of "steps" down from cruising altitude to about 400-800 feet above the airport. Once the minimum altitude of the approach is reached, the pilot must either make visual contact with the runway before descending further. If the runway isn't visible, the pilot will climb back into the clouds and go to a different field. There are 4 instrument approaches to the Evelyth airport. There has been no announcement about which one the pilot was using, and that is a key fact that will tell us a lot. For example, I have reviewed all 4 of the approaches for the airport and 3 of them oriented the pilot so he was lined up on the runway to the west. I'm concerned about the one that just brings the pilot in from the SW down to about 800 feet, where he/she must then maneuver the airplane (at about 130 mph) 210 degrees around to line up with the runway. In a harried, freezing rain situation, when the airplane is difficult to control because it has ice on the wings, this could be difficult. Note that the airplane crashed 2.5 mi. SE of the runway. I am dying to learn which approach was being used.

3. At a small airport a long ways from a city, there was likely no radar coverage below 3-4,000', so the pilot wasn't able to get any guidance from air traffic control. There was also no air traffic control tower at an airport of this size because they only get a few takeoffs and landings per day. However, for thousands of small towns, the small airport is a key connection to the outside world.

4. Weather will turn out to be the main factor. NO PLANE can fly in freezing rain, and a turboprop airplane's deicing equipment is unlikely to be able to shed severe icing that is occurring rapidly. The pilot's choices in icing conditions are: 1.) Descend through the ice/rain and land, picking up more ice as you do. 2.) Climb out of the ice/rain...most icing encounters can be ended by a 2000' change in altitude.

5. Was there a co-pilot? A single-pilot operation in bad weather and with an airplane which is difficult to fly is inherently more dangerous than having someone else there with you to help fly and help see the airport. Although it's "legal" to fly a charter flight with one pilot if there is a working autopilot, there is no question it's

Right now, it's my hypothesis that airplane was on a straight-in approach to the west-facing runway but was picking up sufficent ice to make the airplane uncontrollable. At the last minute, the pilot either didn't see the airport because of the low cloud ceiling, or he changed his mind and began a climb. But, the airplane had sufficient ice by then, or was picking it up, that it was not able to climb, the wing stalled, and the airplane entered an uncontrollable spin into the ground. Sadly, that's a fairly common scenario.

Conspiracy theorists sure show how little they know about flying!

Marc 27.Oct.2002 15:15


You did not provide anything useful. Everyone and his mother knows that planes cannot fly with a mass of ice on its wings. There is no evidence that this occured. At the time of the crash, visibility was 5 miles (there were some differing reports). Initial reactions by "experts" indicated that weather was not the cause. Oh yeah, the doppler showed no precipatation in the area, for what it's worth.

Don't pretend to have expert status just becuase you have a pilot's license. Even George W. has one.

A question for you: If conspiracies do not occur, then what is the purpose of having so many criminal statutes that use the term?

Thanks Marc! 27.Oct.2002 17:53

marc admirer..

Thanks Marc!

"Conspiracy theorists sure show how little they know about flying!"

I think this apply to most areas, not just flying. Most of the people on this site have some real mental issues, I don't quite know if there is any one reason for this, but they do seem to share some common behavior patterns.

See, what you have run into is a case where you have pronounced that there is no Devil (George Bush), hence if there is no devil, then there can't be a God (Forest, Trees, Bugs, Spotted Owls, etc..). You are basically an infidel.

Like in the middle ages, If she weights as much as a duck, and a duck floats, like wood, therefore she is made of wood, and you burn wood, you also burn witches so she has to be a witch, so burn her!

They don't see themselves as being this stupid mentally maladjusted , in fact, quite the opposite. They seem themselves as being superior to most other people. (yet another affliction)

I am so happy these people have basically rejected society or visa versa, anyway, its really scary to think of the possibility that one of them may escape the battery of psychological tests and become a police officer. God! The number of false arrests based not on evidence , but just their own prejudices stemming from self-hate would be mind boggling..


mm, interesting comments 27.Oct.2002 18:27


[I am so happy these people have basically rejected society or visa versa, anyway, its really scary to think of the possibility that one of them may escape the battery of psychological tests and become a police officer. God! The number of false arrests based not on evidence , but just their own prejudices stemming from self-hate would be mind boggling.]

--interesting comments--"rejected society", is that what some evildoers have done? have you ever seen the movie THX1138 by george lucas? i think they are carrying it at Blockcruster now. i don't know if you'd appreciate the movie, as it deals with a citizen who chooses to rebel against the sham-ciety spawned him. after THX1138 (robert duval) is incarcerated by the state (cuz he breaks certain laws of the state), he runs into some interesting characters in jail--including my favorite char, a black man who is existent but does not exist--including a couple of really inept politicos. from your style of posting, you remind me more of the weak-willed sellout SEN5241 who would rather sell his ass back to the state (though he can never be trusted, not even by the state) rather than escape to possibly 'greater' freedom.

i myself find it really scary that many police officers may have escaped the psychological tests only to go on to commit battery of civilians (and partners).

and aren't most of these bong-smoking, self-hating (you may have a point there--i do have doubts about myself as a human sometimes when i witness the apparent thinking of other humans via their actions, like their posting to web boards) hippy peacniks not gonna necessarily desire to be cops for the establishment (though some may establish themselves as non-establishment cops)?

i like your implication of the relationship between prejudice and self-hate, pretty interesting :) that's at least psy101

(and whoever *you* are you seem to really be feeling your oats this 'weekend')

talk to you later "marc admirer..", et al

THX-1138 27.Oct.2002 19:29


I have seen THX-1138 many times over the years. I'm sure some on this website seem me as one of those monkey midgets that attack Robert Duvall near the ventilation shaft at the end of the movie..

When you are young you think you're blazing a new trail, but after you get older, you look down and realize it's a beaten down path.

I've never taking a psychology in school. I got my degree at a Midwestern college, and my education in the United States Marine Corps.

Political discourse is fine, and at the end of the day, we may only be able to agree to disagree, however, there are a sizable number of people on this website that are totally despondent to reason. Facts mean nothing to them, Reasoned thought means nothing to them. They just jump on an idea because it fits with what the currently believe to be true, and ride this idea for whatever it is worth.

Wellstone may have been assassinated, but I think Dash-hole in the Senate has more to gain the bush. However there is absolute no evidence of this. It facts as I know them basically point to poor weather, but this hasn't been proven either.

Marc had given a creditable argument that the weather plays a part in a lot of aircraft crashes.

I have seen a very believable story that Bill Clinton had Ron Brown killed because he was about to be indicted by the independent counsels office. How they altered the ILS landing system on the ground, and tricked the plane into flying into a mountain near the airport, when they thought they were on the glide path to the runway. It was a very believable story, if you hate Bill Clinton. (which I do). However, there is no proof any of this actually happened. Therefore, I do not believe it because the story is based on "This happened because I said so" and not because they found any proof. I can look the story up and post it if you are interested.

At the end of the day, one can post all kinds of bullshit, and vent about their dislikes, and the politicians they helped put in office by voting for secondary party candidates, but that is just juvenile. Having a temper tantrum because they wanted to Vote Green and stick it to the Establishment in the Democratic party, then get upset that the Anti-Christ won by a few hundred votes is just childish.

You made your bed, and you have sit and suck on it until 2004, or maybe 2008...

Grow up..


icing *facts* are incomplete 27.Oct.2002 19:51

why are FWR, et al still on this thread?

perhaps because they are COINTELPRO stooges paid by the hour?

Carmody said it was too soon to determine whether aircraft icing had contributed to the crash. Investigators are reviewing weather data and looking for valves and cockpit switches that might indicate whether the pilots had tried to de-ice the aircraft while in flight.

While there has been speculation about the wings icing up, Ulman said he talked to a United Parcel Service pilot who landed at the airport Friday morning and reported that he had no problem with ice shedding from the wings despite the foul weather.

I'm here because 27.Oct.2002 20:04


I'm still here because deep down you need me...


actually I'm hear because I'm a plant for the DNC. Didn't you hear?

No, that can't be it. They don't pay enough, I work for Ross Perot, hes coming back you know...

Oh, that was last month, now I'm working for the NRA, or was it the NEA, I forget.

Uh what was your question again? Oh yeah, why am I still on this website.

I'm here to remind you to tell your friends to Vote Green!!


To: Ice on the brain and other denyers 28.Oct.2002 06:39

the weather didn't do it

How much does Raytheon or Lockheed pay you to go to Indymedia beat their war drums? How much do the defense industry PR firms pay you to spin every suspicious death that just happened to occur right around the time that Congress voted on the war resolution and with the mid-term elections just around the corner?

Most Americans no longer believe the "official" stories that come out of the government and corporate controlled media. Your side no longer has any credibility whatsoever in this country. Deal with that. At this point those who are still crying "conspiracy theory" must be connected with those who desparately want this war, and it's not the majority of American citizens.

Dem Assasins 28.Oct.2002 14:56

Tommy Tuna

I believe in an assination theory, but its the dems who did it. Figuring that Wellstone was in a tight race in which there was a real possibility he could lose and knowing that the New Jersey "option" was unavailable given the time left before the election (and differing state law) the dems had to figure out a way to "substitute" another candidate for Wellstone. They asked Wellstone to step aside, he refused, so they took him out. Now they've got Mondale in who several major media outlets are reporting is likely to win. Hmmmmmm....sounds fishy to me.